Glenn Greenwald: Antisemitism, Attacks on Free Speech, and Everything You Need to Know about Brazil
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Welcome the tucker carlsson show. We bring new stories that have not been showcased anywhere else. They're not sensitive course because we're not gatekeepers.

We are honest brokers here to tell you what we think you need to know and do IT honestly check out all of our content and talk or carson dot com. Here's the episode. You arrive at the same conclusions. I do one hundred percent of time.

at least on twitter. It's yeah, it's an instinct. I guys said, I think you began with like a certain kind of like inclined, like a view of who's running the country and how you feel about them and why you hate them. And then like everything else is .

kind of follow for you may even be deeper than it's like what's important to royal tea, honesty, children, dogs.

Like actually the same major, obviously like a lot of older, but in general like we're the same old. I like a year old, one hundred and .

sixty seven OK see you two years.

all of them. Okay, congrats on your robust to you.

Yeah, it's interesting. I think about lies, the way I do about alcohol. I just don't want in me at all.

Yeah, yeah. What can you end up to losing yourself? Is the you can consider sly like to see the other people for whatever go and you can tell yourself just maybe sometimes even is but the worst thing is to delete yourself. I can believe yourself .

there nothing do yourself show that I just don't wanted do that again. But the way thank you for setting up that no meeting.

Oh, I knew guys were going to love you tube. I was actually hoping he would change his mind in doing review. I think IT was a good step to doing.

How is yeah and even if I never interview on camera, I was just great for to meet them. But so you are you're the reason that we know any of this information and you were the I who broke the store. Um IT did feel to me like snow den was IT was more important for the U.

S. Government to capture and kill eds known american citizen. Then like any foreign.

he was the biggest league of top secret documents from the U. S. security.

Stay by far. He want any big planets of motile lar. I mean, your time at the nsa, which is possible.

I of eating intelligence agency, he was in IT, stealing all their stuff over month, figuring out how not to get caught. He walked out with that. He went to hong kong with IT having. They have no idea any of that happened. And he was just waiting for us to come in and pass IT all to us and like put in all secret places, like the only thing he cared about was getting that out before he ended prisoner, killed the reever he was.

So despite to get there.

I mean, I really think it's for the reason he said that he really felt portrays, you know, he went to enlist in the iraq, he, he enlisted in the army, he wanted to go by iraq, and we see, do that because you believe the mythology, the person country, and the more he saw, the more he realized that was not a fraud. And that makes you like feel betrayed, like ethically betray, like people who want to go fight wars.

Obviously have a good code of epic already, right? There's I can want to list my respect c life for something that is greater than myself. And then when you realize that, like what your told is greater than yourself is in fact the total lie that you're fighting for completely different reasons, you feel the trade and other the question is like what is really bigger than myself? And he I guy said he thought he was gonna killed ders on the rest of life from prison like by the bet.

We weren't even discussing the possibility that he went and up free. IT was in consumable like that was the darkness that hung over this whole thing the whole time we are doing. And that was, that was very excited about the story we were reporting, we were strategizing.

I was only, but the whole time I felt this like sadness of this person had come to, like, admin. Respect so much, I was never gonna again. He was going end up in prison for the rest of I think that was, that wasn't like a possibility, was like almost inevitable.

And he knew that yeah.

of course yeah. I mean, like obviously you don't if you're at all ethical, like not just a journalist person, you don't use somebody as a source without making sure they understand the rist they're taking in the like of consequences. But he, you know, remember the first conversation I have when I started talking, just like all while verse the s and I was acting like every single law that would be used against him.

He fully understanding, with sacrificing his whole life, he had to hide IT from his girlfriend, who he wanted to marry. That was that, because he was tobe were totally in love, but he couldn't have ever know anything, because he would them and completed. And he was concerned sh'd be vulnerable.

They would go after her art charting with their crimes to get at him. So we had to keep IT all from her. He just disappeared. IT was like, I need to go on a trip program to business.

So I mean, you're describing like one of the most ethical people i've ever met, one of most principled people ever. It's kind of revealing he's considered like the .

crime number because he actually exposed real crimes and the that what always happened is that people who exposed the crimes, I mean, like Daniel elsberg, had document showing that the U. S. Government was telling their own citizens they knew they're going to win the war at exactly the same time.

Internally they they knew they could win war and and like many otherwise too I was like, you know, Daniel elsberg worked to the highest sales of the government forever. I mean, he got A P H D N nuclear, uh, policy. And then, you know, was that at the rain corporation with some of the most secret access ever.

And then he just couldn't believe that he was seeing I inside these documents, comparing them to the public statement. And he was like, how am I going to live with myself for the rest my life if I don't, you know, make this known? And he exactly the same thing. But of course, of the time he was .

completely trained.

Everybody who wasn't on the latest ted, the Angels word, and the the only reason he didn't spend the rest for life in prison is because of the this conduct of breaking in. They broke into a analyst office, are trying discover his psychosexual cigarettes to discredit him, for that was like that whole sea, a group that did the water pe break. And they also broken to his psycho ice office and try to steal all those files.

And then when they couldn't, they wanted to break into the cyclone, lost home. And then that was like the one thing that they get permission for. But when that was discovered, the judge, through the case out solely because the government was conduct.

Had they not, he would have absolutely have been contact. But he he had the support effectively of the american media.

I mean, he bit he, he common dear. That's like the first thing and do a snowden was I went, we went to every major media that that we wanted to work with in order to get them on our side, because we didn't. We would just been to like outsider who weren't.

They were the pot of signal they tried to do that. Mike sa peace reported on. I'm trying to assessing stone, but also create theories to arrest myself and or are calling us information brokers and like either like the whole time James copper would always, when ever refer to us, he would never call us journalists.

He would always call us snowden's like, uh, either in the matters or snowden coffee spirits because they were trying to create a theory that they could arrest us at twenty and go back at one another one. And I had travelled for a year. They are being super threatening.

You know, I had the best lawyers for the rudy in the country of air called on the phone. IT worked upon, you know, those type layers, and they were like, if he comes back to new york, if becomes back to the U. S, can you guarantee that he won't be arrested upon arrival on the right right now? We can.

So that's why you live out of the country.

Well, no, I mean, I had to live debris already, but I was always going back to the U. S. But for a year I could not travel outside brazil.

The brazilian governments said, we will always protect you because I did a lot of reporting on how the nsa was spying on brazil. So in brazil, like porting was considered a and they like will never, never turn you over, but we can get into your protection of you I brazil. So I said in .

brazil for the guardian was one of the places that ran the this data, this information.

wix day partner with wiki.

Yes, but do you think the guard would run something like that?

Zero chance. why? I mean, they're they have got taken over by completely like the editor of the time, as I want to those old school british editors.

yes. And now it's friend by this woman who's like best friends with the ether chief the he was the energy and to degrade in your parties now. And they're bolt to like standard level liberal White women.

And they're all until the whole, like everything. All that matters is trump. They have no animosity toward the security state agencies any ongoing, because they perceive them correctly as their port clouse. And there's no chance that they were of the story like that.

So they're just totally sure.

Do you ever hear any left liberals ever any more talking about the evil of the C A, the P I D N S A, the U. S. security.

Say, never, never, ever. Maybe human and security for being too like aggressive with immigrants. But other than that, like that, this course is gone.

If you type of the C I N A P, I know people that gets coated is like trump, like morning, you have deep state, the deep state you like. They might be idea that there is a deep state that's like been fundamental telephone politics far as long as I can remember. And now IT read is like, you know, trumpy and right thing in any .

country run by its intellect. Law enforcement agencies, as an authoritarian country.

is not a democratic, were built to be outside stem. There is no. There are built to be a secret agents within the government that is immune to democratic accountability. And the amazing thing is, when they had those hearings, like after the twitter files and all of that, every single democrat stood up and said, I want that he won't testify they were lecturing him, saying, like, have you ever considered the fact that the people of the cion, the FBI and our security state agencies are doing this to protect us, not to harmless? Can you imagine, like even like aoc, same thing like even the left ling sectors of democratic ty, there is no space to criticize.

Are there any? Are there any left liberals holding .

office by the on work on yeah .

when they go on.

I could use this yeah okay, I don't know.

but i'm fine.

You an irish IT is right? What I was, I OK which is waiting until but the irish exit.

I'm not irish for the record. But is when you sort of believe with that, saying anything, this is the irish entrance.

We should start with that exact exactly. Just sit down and start with. No, no. Farma start. yeah. But I mean that to me know it's always so buzzard to me that you, for a long time I was considered, you know, I got love wing, kind of leading journalist and finger.

And then at some point, like where the emergence of trump at this huge break with the left and my eyes started becoming people on the right. Think that's now change a little bit more since october seven and alike, but haven't changes in one of my views. I think the premier, the two primary views that I hold that used to be identified with the are now identified with the right is free speech, yes, which began as a left ling movement.

I mean, the free speech women began at berkeley of the most important first moment. Free speech presidents were written by the the most levelling journalists. And like I was left felling jewish lawyers at the you who are fighting for the most absolute versions of free speech, and now free speech code as a fashious value.

And then the second is this critical scrutiny and and focused that I ve always had on the C. A, the FBI, the nsa. And that too now codes as right wing in the reason for that is so disturbing it's because those agencies became among the leading, uh, enemies of the trump campaign and the trump presidency.

That's where a russia came from, was from the balls of the C. I. A. Were anonymous ly leaking every day. The new york times in the washington post, all kinds of information that turned out to be false, but there was designed to sabotage trumps campaign and presidency.

And democrats looked at that and said, why would we have any problem with these agencies? There are on our side, and they are on that side. And this inversion of politics, and and then you add things like neocons almost entirely migrating to the democratic party, works.

When I started to talking about politics in two thousand and five new counts were being talked about. Is blood thirsty here on types? You not seem like that's how life, uh, liberals talked about them. And now like the most influenced dance and liberal politics are like bill Crystal and David from in a call wallace and all those bush lije. Liz Cheney was hero of the year my mother Jones and twenty twenty two mother Jones, you know, like a hard core, left this radical.

I mean, the idea that one hundred years now, a newspaper named after her, who would be naming liz chi, as here are of the year, like when people say, like why have you change? What have you changed them? Like you're the one naming with chi here of the year.

I hate the chinese as much as I hate to them twenty years ago. And this inversiones politics is so radical, so visible and and so transparent and so above. But it's changed almost everything.

IT does seem like maybe a lot of the kind of acu positions, which for the record, I always liked. I always like that .

hand off yeah for example, wonderful man.

But IT seems like maybe a lot of IT wasn't sincere and IT was as soon as the you kind of took power over american society that I was like, now we have somebody to protect.

Now we are the side and door. I think there, I think there was authenticity to the sale in the sense that, you know, like the, I remember red this from childhood. D was I one of the most influential events for me? Even that was only ten of the time.

And that happened. I just became like very interested and started reading on more about IT as a teenager in nineteen seventy eight, which was when the american alc party, which was no like a band, like thirty losers and it's but they like are walking around and not see yeah costumes stuff. They applied for a pray, permitting scope and oil or chicago .

overwhelmingly do a suburb, not just .

everyone I can do a suburb, but particularly known for having a huge population of hoick survivors. People were in actual camps. So imagine the trauma for people like that to see people in extra auto uniforms marching through their town. People swanker is on armed band, pretty heavy here. And, uh, they had their permit rejected on the grounds that IT was the threat of public safety, whatever, but obviously was politically, ideologically driven because the people of coke, I heard ideology of the party for these reasons.

And the acu, despite being composed almost entirely of leptis jewish ters and having donors that were overwhelmingly left to use, who were donating to the area, you, in part because they were also defending the civil liberties of communities in the fifties and sixties. No communists are barred from becoming lawyers and being admitted to the bar because the ideology was considered to prove poor care and fitness in the lake. And a lot of those presidents came out of, you know, the idea that you can suppress, come in a speech in the area you thought to preserve those free speed tracking.

And they did the same for the american active party. That position that they took and ultimately prevailed on was something that destroyed the lives of almost every single one of those layers in the organization. I mean, almost every a supporter of B, C, you, including one to work there, clinton discussed, turned off their donations and discussed to basically destroy the organization, came very close to bankrupting, ever.

And that's what made you so interesting to me, was that they were so devoted to this principle that obviously was in defensive view. They obviously found not just disagreeable, but horrific to the point where they were willing to sacrifice their careers and reputations in pursuaded to that principle. And I just remember being so enamour of bad posture. So they have proven that they and even now you have like a few of r you have a few these remnants of like all a cou layers, for example, they represent right now the na, because the combo the other como administration sought to destroyed the nra explicitly by threatning banks, by threatening advertisers, by threatening anyone who's doing business with the a that they want their state contracts cut off. And the you like the the old lawyers of the acu, like they are real free speech ones.

Look at that and said, obviously, you can have the state government setting out to destroy a political policy group because they're hatred for their ideology and represented the nra and sued the stated new ork can actually won on the grounds that android o had violated the free speech was but primarily like so many institutions in the wake of Donald trump, they became completely corrupted. In part because they were for the first time, you know, they would post like we're going to take prompt to court on this and we're going to take prompter court on that they were, you know, turned into heroes like they say that you have been pretty marginal though, their whole, you know, existence. They were flooded with tens and hundreds of millions of dollars.

And they became this very well funded, powerful organization. And they do that. They were captured as a left liberal at the, because he groups solely to destroy trump.

And now essentially the entire organization is unrecognizable. You know, you have that key event where they defended the rate of nazis or White nationals to mark through shark z, fl. They represented damn.

And you had that woman who was killed by one of the parade protesters, the White nationalist protesters, who ran over either higher and that causes us huge. Or in the so you people who worked on like L G B T issues, early immigrant issues, saying, why are we representing White nationalism? They're free speech rates.

And so do you know anything about the orange zone that you actually apply for a job and and enjoy, but they didn't. And that was on the A, L, U. For the first time you're treated by issuing this memo saying in the future we're going to away the value of free speech verses. Other political are yeah and so many other incenses and where they taken positions that would have been completely anathema to the you want to me this is so illustrative of what happened to I glove liberal political culture of the part of that I used to really like is that IT was announced all in the name of defeating trump, which in turn had all kinds of financial values and benefits and benefits and power and like.

So if you're paying any attention in all that, what's going on the world, you probably ask yourself, what would I do, not just for myself, but for the people who love me and i'm responsible for my family? What would I do if things really went south, either for a short period or a longer, there was an emergency, how would I respond?

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Just take a quick deal to or what so scary is you. I never liked any of the people in the u. Like, I don't think I want to have dinner with them, but I like you, absolutely admired, almost revealed their commitment to principle.

You know, i'll die for. You're right to say something that I hate, right? okay. So I love that, and I still do. Of IT, that was on the left.

That was the best thing about the left that in their entire war instincts, in my opinion, it's all gone. So kind of migrated right and conservative. Start talking a lot about free speech to my joy.

And then you also criticism the u. Security state found only on right the all that version happened.

But then, you know, six months ago, all of a sudden you have people on the right thing, like no world, you know that speeches, violence if you're making people threatened by saying things they don't like, it's like stealing almost word for word, the language of what are these to comes .

snowflakes ah our social justice.

So may be we need hate speech laws, and then all the republicans vote for hate speech laws.

And I first to say, this has been there for a long time, working this huge contradance in right in politics. And I actually have done shows well prior doctored seven there in articles well prior october seven, even with my new alignment with a lot of conservatives who now appreciated my free speech out because seeing my criticism, the u security state, lots people who said, like you, oh, I used to really put my trust in the nsa and the nsc a and there was a snowstorm and all these other things, seeing their abuses politically against trump, that made me realized, you, you are right so had a lot of new writings, not allies, like people who were bowers in my work and readers and like.

But I was always aware of the fact and even saying you have a huge israel exception embedded within your world view because IT wasn't just in south ba seven. It's been for a long time that while a lot of writing speech has been targeted with censorship on campus, and i've been very vocal in the objects that among the most common and frequent targets of censorship, bulbank campus and generally united states of long in israel, critics, professors who have lost ten years because of IT, who have gotten fired because of IT. There was Normal thinkless stein who had this scholarship approved for ten years at the pole university, and alon dorsey went on jihad against him to destroy his career and one, and basically made him unemployable.

There was a professor, the universal annoy. In two thousand fourteen, Steven salata, who was given a contract for ten year, they found tweet of his criticizing very harshly. Israel, often it's twenty fourteen bombing of gaza, and he got fired universal, and we had to pay him a million dollars. They were, but they were pressured by donors and by they were student, your student groups saying, we don't feel safe on campus with someone who's so harshly critical visual so this has been going for a long time.

This is not a new development but since october seven and you know I ve got a friends of my life who um are do issue but know where either skeptical of israel el or kind of pathetic to IT who ve got really radicalize after october so israel has kind of been on the back burner for a long time. So those contradictions were not very apparent. Now you listen to the process real right? And they sound and not ironically, are like you as parity or some strategic mode where they sound exact.

Lake, the left liberals, who we've been heping score on for the last decade, you cannot enter discussion with an israel defenders without them immediately accusing you of being a racist and they disagree with you. Oh, you're an ananta summer. And this is one of the primary rAiling and grievances against liberals for the last decade.

Oh, the minute you disagree with the liberal, they call you are races. They call you a bigger, they call you a trance, they call you massage. Is trying to have an argument, even like a subsidy, civil argument, disagreement criticized just a little bit, and count down the number of seconds before you get accused of being motivated by bigotry and hatred.

It'll be, you know, seconds and each of the people who say, oh, I hate the tactics of accusing everyone, you just agree that being a racist, that's they're only tactic. They're go to tactic the minute you question like why is the U. S. Financing israel's military and in its wars, when in not only hurts their own country, but when millions of israelis are having Better standard living the millions of americans, your jew hater, you know, you know, you have some kind of problem just so it's the same tactic there. Do they say that to you constantly old being jewish is not in any way, does not .

give you any kind .

of unity and what it's so crazy. Yeah I mean, well it's the same thing you know it's like black you know is the amazing thing is A A debate without and ortus in manhattan uh tuesday it's about to come out um which nominally is about whether the U. S.

Should go bum yet another enemy of israel, the middle, this one on, but in a reality, turned into this broader new debate about neo conservative dog men. He actually wants regime change. And they did a vote before and after, like seventy percent of the audiences with me, which was bizarre because I was upper side, but the thirty percent who were not were extremely vocable throwing the debate.

And as I was leaving, I was a quested, I would say, like two dozen of them. And they were hurling insults and screaming and trying to be menacing. And their main argument was, how can you be a je and say these things in my israel? I was trying to say, like, I don't think my being a due compels me to have a certain set of ideas about foreign policy or this foreign country.

And the amazing thing about that is there has been the sense all the time, like if you, if you are vulnerable, see a black conservative or a gay conservative, dell immediately say, oh, you're an uncle palm. You have some psychological problem that yourself adding, how can you be a about conservative? How can you be a gay conservative? As though being part of these, you know, demographer groups somehow compels you to embrace a certain political idea you like.

There's a relationship between your skin color and the political ally ideology that you have to embrace. That was always some argument on the right. Like why just because someone's back, are they automatically and slave to the democratic party? And yet so many people on the right now say, oh, of you are due, you have to have unquestioning support for but like, what if I don't? What if I think the government vision was actually wrong? But it's that tactic like you hate juice or if you are you ish yourself hating.

And then the hate speech i've been hearing from liability for the last decade, oh yeah, we want free speech, but some things over the line in our hate speech. And they endanger minority groups because words or violence and words can insight violence. And this has been the thing that the right has been scuffing out. I know these little left elling snowfall on campuses want the administrators to intervene and protect them from ideas that make them uncomfortable.

There's nothing that we've heard other than that from the last seven months from right process real conservatives other than, oh, these poor little jew wish students at harvard and yale and prince in who grew up extremely well being and go to the most of the colleges are now somehow endangered even though there's no record of violence of these protests, like almost none, because hearing chance that are proposed in or anti is really make them feel vulnerable, like the conservatives in congress that could least to phonic and Virginia at all. Mike Johnson, they had like a herd of jewish students from harvard coming in saying, I don't feel safe at my school. The very things that conservatives have been mocking so viciously when that came from black students, or trans students, or immigrants, or muslims, or whatever, the ocracoke stenching is suffocating .

a nozing. What's from my perspective as an american? I think you can have any opinion one in israel.

I'm not actually that interested. I'd personally like israel, whatever. The red line for me is this is my country.

My birth thread is free speech. God gave me that right? You cannot take that away. And if you're telling me what i'm allowed to say in my country, your my enemy because this kind of that simple, you can't tell me what to say or think, period because i'm in american. exactly.

And if they were consistent and like.

let's say there were period, walk back from there.

right? If there were some consistent standard, like western europeans have hate speech laws, whatever the kind of, they don't really apply them consistently, but at least there's like a dog more like eight speech is not part of free speech. And the only say we don't have a hate speech exception, the there is no such thing. So if you suddenly now start, you know, pat, and it's not just in the discourse, they are passing laws. A great abbot issued an executive order that said, there will be no in an anti semitic m meaning anti semitism speech, antisemitic speech ideas allowed in the state of texas.

And you have, I don't if you saw the video this week, but there was a video emerging where a school administrator went to a group of propane estonian protesters and said, I just want you to know if you chant from the river to the sea, policy will be free or globalize the interviewer, you, you will be turned over the law enforcement. We will call the police on you, and you will be arrested and held illegally accountable. That is no a crime and taxes, they passed a law.

Is that actually true? Yes yes, the you yes. I mean the whole point of greg abbot executive order was to say no antisemitic speech is permissible.

And texas, any author, you are allowed to have antibiotic aces speech. You're like to have entire muslim speech. You have to have White I gay speech here. You can have an entire White speech. You just can be antisemitic to the point where these students are now being told that if they do these political chance, no violence, no obstruction of buildings, nothing illegal, the chance themselves, the ideas themselves, will be to create illegal.

Now, as you say, like you don't have to hate israel or whatever, but we talk all the time, like you are at every pros rael rally in the united states, you'll hear people saying, wipe out all the arabs. Turn gaza into a parking lot. Goza belongs to israel.

We constantly talk about bombing this country. Bombing that country were always advocating violence against this group, against. This country, this country is a legitimate there's only one country that has the protection of these laws, which is the the country of israel. You can have these laws in the first place.

And it's so if they were chanting excel tucker carlson from the country, why I am tucker carlson, so obviously opposed to that, I would have exactly the same position that I have on this or any other be related matter, which is i'm in american. Every american has the right to say exactly what he thinks at all times, period, period. Like, I thought that was the whole point of the country. And like, let me just say too that like.

just because I hear this argument so much, and I think a lot of people who are conservatives who understand that they're now veering into this territory, trying justified by saying, look, we're only doing this because the left has been doing IT. We're not going allowed the left to do IT and we're not going doit right constantly. That's justification.

And the thing is, this is the big illusion. As I was saying, you know, about these protesters are being fired as pris o critics have have long been one of the most common targets of censorship. I'll just give you an example.

There were twenty three different red states, including taxes and greg abbot, but also new york and and como, who well before you know, in in like the above ministration and in the trump ministration pass laws. That said this IT said, if you are contractor and you work with the state from now on, you have to sign a pledge that you do not believe in and will not participate in a boycott of the state of israel. And I interviewed this woman, profiled her when he was the speed propose gist in Austin. Taxi SHE had was her specialty, was he worked with children who had in the boycotts.

You can't refuse to buy israeli products yeah .

like there's a movement like know when the eighties there was a movement to diverse from south africa to boycott th africa, not to go to south africa. It's good in order to bring down the apartheid regime. So there's a similar movement called the boycott, divestment and sanctis movement like let's not invest in israel, let's not israel, let's not supported products in order and the occupation and give the palace in a state in the united states, in twenty four different states.

There is there is a law that says you can not get a contract with the state unless you now sign this play, saying you don't support this boycott and will not party a loyalty pledge to a foregone country. Only one. This is the amazing thing.

You're a lot to boycott other country in the world, including your own. You can boycott pero. You can boy cot south korea. You can have not gonna boycott to kota. The other thing, rew como, who has who I did despite executive order, said that anyone who boycott israel has no right to have a contract.

He wrote a washington post up that the headline was, if you boycott israel, will boycott you now, six months before that and six months after, by executive order, he required state employees to boycott state of north CarOlina and then the state of inDiana in protest of their bathroom goals that they enacted for, you know, if you, you have to use the bathroom of your biological choice. So not only are you allowed to boycott your own country and harm, economically, the citizens of other states under como, actually older boy cots of american states, while at the same time banning anybody from boycott the state of israel. It's a single country that has all kinds of special privilege, ges and rights.

And let me just tell you another thing.

did they want say anything about this? Well, I was writing about all the time, but few people cared. Finally, those cases got brought to the courts, and thankfully, courts of overwhelmingly, almost unanimously said, this is a great violation.

The first moment are being struck down but the are thirty something so amazing is just kind of encapsulates IT for me so bench pero uh a good friend yours um and uh long time protocol. I um obviously one of the main kind of unifying views of conservatives is that we shouldn't have job solicited for certain groups. We shouldn't have we should judge people based on the collar, their scanner, their ethic group when hiring .

or they are religion or IT should be a photography .

or can you do the job exactly so plentier which is a intelligence uh agent and intelligence corporation that was started by Peter T O and that has all kinds of contracts with the C A, the defense department but is drawn by um jewish vocal supporters. Israel announced in october and november after hearing all the stuff about jewish dents being discriminated against because of the views, whatever.

And IT was never really use of students that was pro israel student students support because a lot of these protests have overwhelming numbers of of juice inside these protests over, yes. So it's not hostility toward juice, hostility toward anyone who supports this war, that the protest. The pantier announced that they were creating one hundred and eighty new jobs that were available exclusively for jewish students on campus who felt like they were being made uncomfortable.

IT was one hundred eighty jobs. No Christs color py, no muslims color py, no atis copy, no black people only for juice. The entire saw that and he went on to twitter and above that valentine announcement, said something like, well, this is fantastic and then after his own followers spent the day saying what he mean, this is exactly the thing you're supposed to oppose.

At the end of the day, he was kind of forces. So yeah, you know what? Maybe I would be best if they were open to everybody.

But then like, what's the point of the announcement he would never have comment in, obviously was happy about that. Very, very same thing, you know, is like anti oke. This is identity politics is peers.

I gets creating a hundred ninety jobs. So we for jewish, I think very hard to make the case that wish americans are like an endanger or marginalized minority in the united states. Very, very hard to make decades. When he saw that announcement, SHE put this like very excitement law on top of IT. And so you see this like other and complete abandonment of what these people have been claiming, where their principles, not even in defensive their own country, your people in their own country, but this foreign government, intellivision.

And to, you know, when you watch something like that and you see a political movement expose itself as a complete fright, I should say there are a lot of exceptions to like, hard core conservatives like Chris roofing has often condemned some of these bills you have two can do so once has to um Thomaston and congress has been like incredibly stead fast to the point where he packed, tried to take him out and failed. He just want his primary but like seventies, but overwhelmingly the pro israel sector of american right has proven itself to be such utter and complete flags about virtually every value they spend as decade pretending to champion and believe in. And it's been sickening to watch.

The reason is scary is, again, has nothing to do with israel at all, about which I have like gas emotion than most americans. I apparently I just don't care that much either way. But what's scary is if there is an an alignment between left and right to say everyone with institutional .

power on .

the question of speech. In other words, if you say something I don't like, I can put you in jail, then it's a totalitarian an country. By definite .

definition, there is no totalitarian country in history that has offered free speech, and conversely, there's no totalitarian country in history that has refrained from using censorship, which is one of the reasons why it's so bizarre that if you now wave the free speech, penner, you're accused that code is like fascist. It's like showing the fascist country that actually offers free speech and that doesn't use severity. It's like a hallmark of ashes m to do what you're doing. But you know .

and I know, and i've been a txt recently for just asking questions on by the right. I've been on the right my whole life like since childhood and just asking you're just asking questions like you kind .

of about like important to be. But here's the other thing. Touch this is the other amazing part of IT is like, you know very well that under trump and I think is one of the things don trump has has done that has been very positive as he dragged the republican party away from the kind of bush chaining neocon's theology and even like going back to the kind of call war of them most words and stop by saying, like, we shouldn't be focusing on all these other countries, and we should be focusing our own citizens.

Especially because they are not doing very well by every metric. Every city is filled with like antics and communities that are being devastated. The following infrastructure, you compare the infrastructure, the united states.

You know, every time I come here, I like come to an airport and see roads and you go to, you know, asia or like places in the golfer and even in western europe, you know, the difference is so obvious that looks like it's a rumbling country on every level. And we're spending all this money to benefit of the country. So the republic ican party has basically really branded as amErica first, based on the idea that our primary priority should be the people of our country.

You, I can't tell you how many republican members of congress or republican journalists are pendants. I interviewed over the last two and have fears who say we can't be financing the war in the ukraine because we don't have the money to be financing other countries war, nor should we be doing that. Our focus should be on our own country.

And every single time, well before even occur, some, I will ask them, does that also apply to israel? And that we're kind of stammer and stutter and not want to say IT. But now you say like you don't care about israel, I tell to understand that the problem though is, is that israel has received far more aid from the united states than any other country by far over the last three, four decades.

We pay for their military. We pay for every time there's a new war. We send them billions in millions and more on top of the four billion doors a year than obama retired with the yahoo.

Not only do that, but we ARM them the bombs that they used to kill golden and civilians come from the united states. And I think worse of all, we isolate ourselves from the entire rest of the world. You know, many votes are been in the U.

N. Over the past seven months, where the entire world is on one side, and israel, united states, stand alone on the other with me know a couple of those tiny countries that we often bribe like mr. Onesie and martial ireland's .

the part of the .

coalition of the micro yeah mico. It's like. So you know, it's also just the standing in the world like our sacrificing of soft powers. So we give up so much for israel in so many other ways that if you're american sizes, you have to care about IT, even if you don't want to know .

what I one of the stories we did, I know, I know. I just have a gut level affection focus. I've had nice time there like so many israelis personally, and no, a lot.

And I just like, there's nothing more wonderful than having dinner in ju salem on a summer night. Just just I just have a lot of affection. I guess that's what i'm saying. So i'm not sort of animated by you know, any anything really. I just like trying to I live here sort of my kids, sort of my ancestors.

It's like I just care about this country and if you're changing my life for stripping my rights for me that we've had for two hundred and fifty years on half of any other place, you are my enemy like it's just that simple. You my enemy I mean, I don't know what to say. I don't want even even have this conversation.

Well, that's the amazing thing, is that the devotion to israel is so great and so increasable devotion of any other foreign country, that is to the point that their supporters, support of visual, are willing to deconstruct in a road and sacrifice the core basic rights. That is, americans, by definition, we're supposed to enjoy what that is.

What's up? This is my country. I'm from here.

I'm going to die here. I will not accept that. And I don't care what you call me.

You can't take away my right to say what I think that is the foundational right in the united tes for amErica and is the only thing that prevents us from becoming style onest period. Who came up with the idea you only vote in november in elections. No, you vote every single day with your time and your money.

You show your preferences. You put your support behind things you believe in, and you will hold support from things you don't. You can do that with your cell phone.

By the way, there's a wireless company that if you're done na board with what's going on in this country at the highest levels, you can make your preference known. It's called pure talk. It's probably something you should consider.

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Well, I remember you when I talked about this on your show. I think three, four weeks, maybe after october seven, when all these calls for restrictions on speech, we're starting to emerge in one of the things you said. What I remember was by some weird or collection of various events, IT has been the american ride over the last decade that has been defending because of free speech, which is absolutely truth to one of the reasons why I ve had more alignment. They're right then with the lap because that's a primary causal and always husband always will be.

And you said, if the right now starts abandon that and application for censorship, because now the views that are being targeted are no longer once they love, but once they hate, namely criticism of movie israel, the right will never have credibility ever again to pretend that to believe in free speech, because you, you're go to north korea and you praise the government, you're not going to be bothered at all. Any country, any international country, if you express the views that people on power want to hear, you are always going to enjoy the blessings of free speech, free speeches for dissidents, free speeches for people who have opposing views, minority views, and so to watch the right wave the banner, free speech. Because IT was conservative speech being targeted, everyone will always be in favor of free speech and defense of their own views. The only real task for the authenticity ity of a free speech advocates is when IT comes time to defend free speech for the ideas you hate most, which is why that what the a unit was. So I search out on purpose the cases where the views I hate most are being assaulted and censored to defend free speech there, because that's the only way you can really defend that value in a meaningful way and defend your country.

Like what does that mean to defend the united states? IT means to defend the belive, right? The thing that makes this country is on our market economy is our system of government is based on the idea that you have write, you are born with. They will not confer to by government and cannot be taken away by government.

And that is that the unique idea, that is the idea, and there's any idea worth defending, is that and if that goes away and people who have, you know more powerful computing power, more money or you know, access to the levels of of power can use violence in a state sanction way if they can stop you from saying what you think, if they can force you to believe certain things. We're just done. We're done like like that. You're not a lot to reckon. My country, actually.

that's how I feel. And also, you know the we know earlier, I mean, one of the the real cause that motivated that was snowed in was not so much the right to privacy. Obviously, that was a big part of opposing the small day.

What IT really was was preserving this incredibly new and powerful innovation that had emerged in his analysis that he became very enamel with, which was the internet. The internet is a remarkable weapon for citizens to communicate with one another, to spread information, to organize without the ability of state and corporate power, to intervene and control IT. And he saw the degradation of the free internet, which was always the principal.

You go back to them in nineties with the the program tions about the important IT was free internet keeper hams of the internet point. yeah. And they d degraded IT into the the one of the most powerful systems of surveilLance ever created.

But this cause of free speech really means now mostly free speech on in the place that where will you communicate, what is the internet now is why the by administration systemic attempt to force these, the tech companies to remove the two separate courts have now concluded were one of the gravest sault on on the first minute was so offensive to me. But the similar thing IT IT comes from the other direction. And if you take away the rate of free speech and none only means IT, doesn't only mean that people who dissent lose the ability to express that descent without being punish.

Ed, what IT means even more seriously, and I think more destructive with that we don't have to think about, is that IT enables power centers to propagandize without chAllenge. We drowned in a close system of information that power centers approve up because they eliminated all these other ideas as disinformation or hate speech, or incident of violence, whatever theories they invent to a road free speech. And then we're hopeless.

We're totally dependent. Every other right we have doesn't matter because of the that's our minds are controlled our most, what we believe is manipulated. So we'll be obedient.

We'll be conforming. Those other rights won't be necessary because we will be good conformance obedient citizens who don't realize how propaganda es we are. And that is the what's at stake. And so when you see any group of people, especially one's claim to believe free speech, suddenly abandoned that and start cheering for censorship as a framework, it's incredibly dangerous because even as a self interesting matter, you know that this system will eventually be used against you, even if it's not at the moment.

And conservatives of all people should know how easily will be weaponized against them, and if they are cheering for the very systems that they've spent a decade now claiming to hate, along with all these scripts about everyone's races who disagrees with me. And no, this isn't free speech. This is hate speech.

Know all or hate, hate speed chokes, hate crime hoaxes like Jessie small, and hate crime hooks es like very way. As I pushed this idea that there are jewish students walking around and suddenly being attacked by violent hordes of antisemitic mobs and being stabbed in the I with palestinian flags and IT. All began with this one woman, who is a long time israel activists who claimed that IT happened.

You went all over the media claiming I was stabbed in the eye with a palestinian fact. There was nothing wrong with the I resulting wrong with out, because IT didn't happen. Someone waving a flag was walking pastor and IT brush by her. And that was a hay crime hoax. And I might Johnson, the speaker, the house went two days later, the whole cost museum, and turn that one hate crimes hoax that this one singular incident said, we are now a country where jewish students cannot walk out on the street without being endanger of being stabbed in the eye with a palestinian flag. So every single component of left ling culture that the american right has been heping score on and viciously mocking the riding for a decade, are now defining and tactics and defensive of the coin .

country that is so interesting. So eventually, very ways very is, I think, pretty popular. And strong feelings are very wise either way. But he seems very popular on the right and some parts the right.

So here's someone who's in a liberal who's opposed to free speech and as a liar, how did SHE all of a sudden big? It's like she's everything can also supposed to dislike or oppose, maybe not personally very charming actually. But like how did he become like A A darling of .

conservative? Think we talking this before, but very way, got higher away from the wall street journal by the new york times on the same day that they also higher bret Stevens away from the wall sty journal. And all the levels were focused on in the obsess with bread Stevens that were all up in arms and angry that bread Stevens was the climate than I.

And now going to have the spaces in your times colonies. I was trying to get everyone to understand that the farm, more significant, higher. The former consequent person was barely wise because I had seen her.

She's extremely suit. She's very coming SHE understands how media work. She's very smart and I know i've got to know her personally and she's impossible dislike as a person like incredibly charming and I think like genuinely compassionate. You cannot dislike her as a personally agree and that's that's an important weapon.

But what one of the reasons why he became a vocable is because he resigned in the new york times was such a kind of denunciation the new ork times like ideological dog, when there was a lot of truth to that for sure. But then you if you actually look at, and I think this is one of things that i've only become i've only come to understand recently, is that there are a lot of there's been a lot of focus over the last a decade under the banner of antium. And that's really very way is kind of brand is like and against ideology and against media capture by the ideology.

And there was all this fixation on college campuses. And a lot of time people like lie, forty year old poundings and journalists stand talking about what they came, year old old doing on college campuses. Sis like gum as not just as proportion .

a bit a little bit creepy, especially ive league called like actually who gives a ship in a country that's dying of final where people are so unhappy that life expectancy is declining like we're spending a lot of time talking about colombia.

Student, exactly. And like you can say, well, the something and it's true, like nineteen and twenty. You know how fucking student I was when I was nineteen. And like the kind of al ism and I even take and just like my view, the world was so simply because that's hard of being Young, like you kind of want that youth energy.

But the real reason is that the thing that is very racist, obviously animating cause is the cause of sign, is a minister el, that I don't think he would even deny that. And there has been this fear on the part of the israeli government. The previous real movement that the greatest danger of the israeli causes faces is the activities of students on college campuses.

Where is the only place where robust criticism of israel is tolerated? And it's the movement, as we were describing, where this boycott, the vestment and sanction movement has taken hold. And that was in part that thing that brought down a part of south africa, which is a very close alive, this role in the united states.

And they were patch fied that at that took cold. And that would become a very effective movement against israel. We can get position, we can get standing in the world. And so there are all kinds of tragic members of saying, we need to target college campuses and make sure that this is that this climate is transformed.

And the whole reason why people like very nice and black men whose uses his billionaire ata suddenly become political focus so much on college campus is wanning professors wanting a university president inspired act like the way of saying any college student who signs that anti israel petition will be permanently blackboard and all as billions of friends and hedge fn managers and corporate CEO and people of talents are joined in is because they identified college campuses as the place where israel criticism was bubbling over and was really being active. It's the same reason. The tiktok up and you know this tiktok bound, if you think about IT, I thought was because of china.

no. okay. So i'm just I know so when IT was first introduced, that was the idea, right? Like we can't have the chinese communist party data. Like all of that data is not a available on the open market. Like there was a big scandal that the CIA and and intelligence committees were buying on the open market, huge month of data about american cities .

and listened to a .

everything is track. You don't why would need to create an APP to get all design information that they can buy from anywhere else? So and at the same time, like the people who run tiktok are pure capitalists. Like the guy who is the CEO was born in singapore, he went to the london school of of economics and he went to harvard. He worked from the kinsey or golden sax, like a classic, all he cares about his money IT.

But this this idea of banning tiktok has been around for four years, and I couldn't get past that was what considered way to extreme by banning american citizens who voluntarily choose to use this APP to find communion, to spread ideas, to make themselves heard, to read news, taking that away from them or forcing A A cell was considered way to extreme. And yet suddenly, after october seven, instantly and overwhelmed by partisan consensus formed in order to bandit, ran through congress and president by incited why you go, didn't ask any one of the sponsors of the tiktok band, why I finally got enough people to support IT after spending so many years, not even near a majority. And they will all tell you that the reason is because they became convinced that there was far too much israel criticism being permitted on tiktok. That was the issue that became the tipping point for banning an APP that one hundred and eighty million americans, a third of the country, voluntarily choose to use IT was because of the israel issue. And I think like we're required so often to tip to around this, you know, you get accused of like pushing antisemitic tropes that like, uh, jews are behind everything.

How to live in a free country? Just leave me on, yes, just want to live in .

a free country that's it's not american, it's not just american. Juice were invocation from birth with the idea IT was something like event jela ls and people in the national security state like this country has such a special status and I hold, and it's not me like speculating, that israel is the reason the people who got the bill through congress, that the tipping point was that all these members of the democratic party, who previously resistant, depending tiktok, became convinced that that was one of the major sources that was allowing israel criticism in pro palatina ian speech.

Meaning, like lots of videos circulating about, you know, goza children dying, they wanted to ban the the APP or forced IT to be sold to a an american commit that would be far more suspected to pressure from the administration like google and and and facebook of an to sensor IT that that was the reason they felt like the reason why Young people turn against israel because they we're getting too much information on tiktok and I was too free. That should alarm everybody. Well.

it's again, if you're american and you just want to live in a free country, that's completely unacceptable. That's like there's no way to describe that is anything but a state clamped down on free speech which is not allowed in the united states? That's italian.

Super simple. I'm really struck by how non obvious that seems to be to everybody. And i'm wondering like where's they can you don't have a bill of rights. You don't have a free country unless someone's fighting for IT, and I don't see anyone with power fighting for IT.

So no, I mean, well, it's so interesting. I mean, first, all I think we have to acknowledge the reason you the founders, when they created the bill of rights, guaranteed rights that they knew would otherwise be vulnerable if they weren't guaranteed. Like that's the whole point.

And the very first right guaranteed in the bill of rates. And the first moment is the right of free speech. That was for a reason they were kind of children of the enlightenment.

The idea that there is no more ability for us to put our faith and centralized authority to decree truthy were indulged LED with the capacity of reason. And we're positive figure that out for ourselves without being. It's so foundation because .

you are not a sleep that is the marker of being a human being, the right to think what you want and to say what you want. If you don't have that rate, you are not fully human, right? I feel always a Christian.

I'm just gonna say I think god, creative people, there's inherent value in every person and that's why it's so important. It's, it's it's actually bigger than america. It's like, are we going to treat people like human beings with dignity? Or we going to treat them like objects.

It's one of things that ultimately distinguish is from other animal species are capacity to reason to engage in critical analysis. And so but conversely, the reason that right needed to be guaranteed is because we are all attempted to look at the views we find most threatening and to hate and to want those band and kind of invent theories as to why they should be, even if we believe that were supporters of free speech.

Like somehow these views that we hate most and fine, most threatening, those are something different. And you see, the left haven't been done that for the past ten years by claiming that people who questioned gender ideology, or citing genocide against strange people, or people who are opposed to racial reforms or formative action, are people who hate black people. People opposed immigration hate non White people.

So this is how they created these justice cations for supporting censorship. Now, the american right, I don't want to say now in the sense that they suddenly started because I said it's been predating october seven for long time but that I don't think it's like so conscious that, oh, there were political center. I think they view israel criticism as very dangerous and very threats. And they don't fight the human temptation that we all have to want the ideas that we most hate to kind of be.

But if you care about your own country, come on, which you run, which you run. You have an obligation to care country since your job, to administer and run the country and preserve what we have for our children. I you can't reach these conclusions, like if your office holder in the united states, you have one job and that's to preserve improve your country and if that's not your main um you know driving desire then you're betrayed your country yeah .

and I mean I think first of all you we are all invocation with the idea from birth. I know I was that the united states is the greatest country in the world that represent freedom. Mean, we were warned the cold war war was really, really believed that. But even after, and we were given explanations as to why there was true or IT wasn't just a decoration. And like one of the reasons was that we have freedoms guaranteed that .

other countries don't. That was so people say exactly.

And we were not to reveal the constitution in the bill of rights and all of the values that are represented. So if you're willing to abandon those and sacrifice those, and this is the thing IT would like, the left, the american left has been accused of being, I think, quite valid, embracing censorship. But at least they're doing IT.

I don't mean to justify distinguishing IT. At least they're doing IT in defense of what they consider to be other americans who live here, minority groups who live here. And they think centre ship is important to protect the ability of other americans who are part of my dori groups not to be endangered. It's a totally misguided idea. They exaggerate the extent to which everyone's being endanger to think ratio relations that states are Better than they ve.

But that's at least the idea what the censorship protesting about now is designed to do is to sacrifice the rates of american citizens in order to benefit this foreign country to which people in the united states have obviously more yale than they do to their own country, and just mean american use a great people. And that is the part that is so bizarre and disturbing that the reference for this foreign country, I mean, you, you can say anything you want about american leaders, about the leaders of your own country. You can say they're evil, their criminal, their corrupt, their ah you can do any of that.

You cannot do that about the leaders of this one foreign, about leaders about any other country you want, just not the leaders of this one foreign country. And like I said, I think the time to to stop typing around that has long past. Tucker says its best.

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Well, I agree with that.

And I say that is someone who spent, I don't know, a couple of decades is sort of avoiding the topic just because I M not almost all my friends love israel. No problem with that at all. great. Love israel and I doesn't bother me at all um I as i've said three times and I mean that I just have great affection for the country and the people who live there and like hardly anti I bit I just care about my country and all of the sudden like such a massive threat to our foundational rights stemming from this issue and I think of course, you you face all sorts of, I mean, i've had people I know and really like and have known for decades, many decades, call me or text me. Know you're and really attacked me actually and I always I say exactly what i'm saying you because I mean.

I me ask you, I perceive and i'm wondering if you do I do think like for the last five, five or six years when you have your fox news into talk show, I think it's not controversial to say that you are, if not, I I think I would say the most popular and influential voice in american conservative politics. Maybe second, only a dollar trump.

And I seen that for a long time, only in the past seven months when you started expressing some decent on this particular issue, and IT wasn't even as really I was, hey, why are we doing all this for this foreign, something you've saying about ukraine and many other countries, is there a real animals? For the first time, among certain factions of the conservative moving in the united states, including very prominent people, not just to criticize you, but to try and exclude you, to try and destroy your reputation, like we were time about that fake report that you launched a new show on russian T. V.

And I watch the people who are celebrating spreading that there were people who a year ago would never have their criticize you this one issue, and same with canoas ones who you know was incredibly popular and conservatives as well. And you point to other people too. It's this one issue that countries, you know, be the ultimate web. And I wondering if you perceive that .

I get you know I really trying not to think about IT. I think um I don't want to become angry at all and I think that just as honestly as I can be, do think and I have noticed, you know, if you start focusing on the israel question, people get really angry about the stuff, really angry and IT takes over their brains and I just don't want that you know and I think a fundamentally happy person.

I have a wonderful family and onerous friends, and I live in a wonderful place. And I I don't want to focus, I don't want to go crazy and be like mad, okay? And I also don't want the concerns of a foregone country or the arguments about that country to define my views. I care about where I live in my family and preserving what I grew up with. And and I don't mean money, I mean your .

values and your right and your structure.

You, exactly. So I just have really tried to ignore IT and tried not to get involved. I know that people love israel so much, which doesn't bother me at all, but did IT makes them super emotional? What time? But when you start to tell me that is an american, I can't say certain things in my country.

I won't have IT. I just won't have IT. So I just really feel like I was pushed into saying something. And I also have a special concern for Christians in middle east. And so I I did i've only done one interview in my life, right, that chAllenged any which was about .

that passed in the .

west with the past. I know nothing. I know nothing about him and you know, i'm not like Carrying water for him. I just because it's a totally fair question to say, like, well, how are Christians doing in the middle? Ast, and the answers is not well at all and maybe we should hear from them that was told that was my only agenda right there.

And all of a sudden, like, you know, I get attacked personally as some sort of crazy not see or something that was too unreasonable for me. But even then I was like, i'm not going to engage. I don't want to have these arguments is not worth IT.

I've got a million different interest. This is not a great interest of mind. And as i've said five times, I just don't care that much. But then the speech thing, when you're recking my country and lying constantly in encoding those lies into my laws, then just as my patriot c duty to be like, no and yes, are you do you get destroyed for that or people try to destroy you, obviously? And all of a sudden berry way, like, I always super charming 我， i totally agree, done some kind of things I like all of a sudden she's like telling you, like lake who I know I want the same college, just some are always like the light, like write some hit piece on me saying that .

i'm anti american and like ban bench .

pier in the whole daily wired and I totally, I actually shot, I don't really a IT e lake attacked you eli lake. You know, not a huge part of my life, but i've never just like the old lake so I text you like and I was like you said I hate amErica in this piece. You've got my text, of course, I text to them when you call me and asked me my views in america, I would just tell you, because I think pretty transparent about my no response.

I said you wrote a piece about my views when you have my text, when you know me, you wanted you to ask me. My viewers are, I APP happy to go on the record. I do.

I think of america. He didn't respond. I had him again. He's like, I think I should done that.

I like, no, this is, I mean, again, i'm not going to well on that. I don't want to wine. I have no cause for winning at all in my life period. However, that's so dishonest that I just it's like, oh, that's how IT works.

But I think I think it's such a foreign because so just me say two things on this. One is, I think the thing that you've talked about most on your show, when you had the folk show and public things that talked about most to oversee, like the last two to three years, has been the war in ukraine. E and for very similar reasons, not because like who runs eastern dba, the crime is of significance to me.

It's really actually not it's because our country has become so involved in IT, not just with money, but with like our weapons and risking escalation tion that you feel obligated as an american given that these policymakers and washington have decided that our country that is now war. And I think that's the same thing with this rules. Not like I have some special, I mean, you know, I grew up very much in american, do all for my grandparent jewish, my parent jewish, most of the people I went to school with our jewish you, I consider myself of you, I think like you are, accomplishment is something to be proud of.

Well, have family in in israel. I have no animists at all. It's to me it's the same exact, you know, policy principles that LED you to criticize the war in europe, that have let me to criticize lots of wars, including the one in. But the reality is, and I think this is so important, is that it's just indicate, and as someone who grew up in embedded, the american 就是 culture， my grandmother fled not to germany in the late thousand nine hundred and thirties to come to know. I said he was a jewish immigrant, little german, jewish german immigrant, who had a big german accent till the day he died.

And only SHE and her Younger sister came in the rest of her family stage and where I killed the holocaust these were, you know the things I got up with and fed on IT all of that um and for that reason I know and I went but he sent me to like due summer camp I went for like five trade summers ers and you sing you is prayers and indoors or with the principles of jewish lure. American jews are told and inducted from birth that one of their duties is to be oil to and defend and protect the state of israel. Even if you're in american, your joe argentina, your due, wherever that is, something that being jewish kind of you're told from birth obligates you to do, and then recently ever elicits, have also taken on this this view that israel is this country of great, special religious and theological value.

And so we do have a lot of people on the united states who, for various reasons, have decided that this one foreign country has such great importance, that if forced to choose between the two, and of course, we have different national interest in different interest all the time, that protecting and venerating and elevating israel is a more important goal than even defense to our own country. And that is just the reality. And you see at manifesting in so many ways of that the emotion.

And that's why people can tolerate disagreements of almost every kind, you know. But we also, I think, like fifteen to twenty percent of our subscriber based on our viewership, like in the first four weeks of the after october seven because of my position on israel, you know, people say I can disagree if you had anything, but this is the one issue I just can't tolerate. I got to are running the opposite direction.

And I think it's important to acknowledge how many people are incubated from birth to you. Believe that. And that's the thing I think is our greatest obligation as human beings.

Why free speech so important? Well, and the ability to access other information, like I wanted read what russia is saying, the E. U. Mated illegal to platform russia state media. Adults in the eu, even if they want to, can't read russian media because how it's illegal.

I want to have different information sources other than what their own countries to me, because one of the things you have is adult, I think is the greatest obligation is to go back and reevaluate what you were trained and in doctor to inlcuded to believe and not just reflexively continuous ly that in adult IT was indicated, but to recess whether or not there is really are your views as a result, your own critical analysis, or whether you have different views, including the role of own country. Like all of these things are so important to not being a propagandize kind of tomato and IT. Is this true for a lot of american jews that this inductions is so extreme?

I think now for event dollar as as well that it's become the paramount view, like the view that subsumes every other. And I think that's why when you see this conference between. A A devotion to protecting the civil liberties and free speed traits of american citizens when that comes in conflict with this goal of shield ding in protecting israel. So often the shield ding in protecting of israel wins out even when IT comes time to protect.

So got to be the red, got to be the red line. And again, even for people like me, you know, again, I don't have any problem with this world of any problem .

with people who love is real. People think is real. I like, you know, you can love other countries.

I love israel as a place to visit. And i'm not against IT. If you don't allow me to say what I think or think what I think, you are not treating me as a human being.

period. And the defense of human dignity has to be the higher school period and you cannot treat me like a slave. And it's just gotten to this point where, yes, of course, obviously they are massive drawbacks uh to saying that are loud but like you don't have a choice at this point.

you just don't have a choice. I also think this is what I really believe is that you know you've obviously got to a place in your career where you have a lot of security, where you have even with this dissent on this is sure a lot of people who's to listen to you and trust you and you're going to pay attention to you no matter what I feel the same way.

I mean, I have like a success, my journalist career, at the point where I don't ever feel like I need to be captives of my audience or feed them what they wanted hear. We've always tried to cultivate an audience that knows that they can expect to come to me and hear what they want to hear there. At times we're going to hear things that they violence, discreet.

And i'm always going to respect them, love to make an argument, but that's part of what I hope they're coming to me for. But for a lot of people in journalism, especially with the destruction of jobs in the erosion of job security, is every major media is, is, is, is laying all people in huge numbers. And it's kind of a collapsing industry.

The pressure and need to conform is greater than ever because most people don't have that privilege or that security that you and I both have at this point in our lives and career. And you I can tell you how many times during rush gate where was as vocal of the skeptic of russia, e, as I could possibly be from the very moment I first heard that script. Get available at the CIA through the new york times in the washington post, so many journalists to work at major media as x CNN in the washington post, in nbc news, and others would write me and say, i'm so thankful for this sceptics and the first pressing.

And of course, at some point I was like, why are you expressing IT? But I know why, because if they did, even in one time, they have become the target of the liberal mob on twitter that would put pressure on the editors to fire them. They be the first to get laid off, the last to get hired.

And so our journalist profession has become one where conformity is by far the highest value. And I think for those of us who aren't quite as vulnerable warp as insecure in terms of our you know career position or need to keep a job, it's almost if you have an obligation to create that space that a lot of other people can create. That's really what I feel.

And so if no one likes having people who are your readers or your viewers or previous supporters, I kind of turn against you and not you. Nobody likes being called names. It's not fun for anybody. But you know, if you're going to do a job and have some kind of meaning to IT some kind of purpose, to IT some kind of value that is based on, I feel like if you are in that kind of position, you have the obligation to take those course .

you do and to be as honest as you can be, and by the way, to keep the extent you can, but try really hard every day to keep the hate out of your heart. If you do find that, I think there are some people I don't talk about, not many think god, but there are some people I don't talk about or write about ever, because i'm too much at them. And I I don't want to feel that.

And I can smell hate. Other people. Hate is one of those words have been weaponized.

And of course hate. But hate is real, and we do feel IT. And in my religion, you're not allowed to forgive us. Our trust passes as we forgive those who trust passed .

against like he, but not center.

You absolutely are not allowed to hate. People have to forgive people. So there are you. There are a few people, individuals, who I feel like really betrayed by bill Crystal. I think about the any got insane in my opinion, but on this topic, like you're not gonna stop me from saying what I think is true by accusing me of hate when I know that there isn't any hate. I'm not motivated by some weird animals or something you know, some irrational dislike of anything i'm just not going to be at that.

You're not going to stop me. But I think that such that that is like the attribute of being secure in yourself and your own values that you don't feel like you have to prove anything, or there's an accusation made against you that you know is false, that you have no IT doesn't affect you at all because you know deef down how you live.

how you feel, how you smell. Another people, I see people and sometimes like, wow, that guy, there's a lot going on inside and I don't want to be anywhere near that because I may agree with some of his views but he's this rage it's just, oh.

what I I always had like and I think it's been so important like I used to be a lot more of in my ric I go rss in my rec and I heard, yeah and you too I heard you back in that show where you talk to Chris o and you guys we're kind of something you in particular talking about our friendship. But you are saying how like nobody was meaning to you, and I don't even remember that because I was equally mean to everybody.

But I never felt I was, I got, I never felt like I was condemning the person because I didn't know the person I value of is condemning their views, the role they were playing into the political. But so many times people who are like viciously condemned, their denounced. I end up becoming friends way. Yes, because I never, I never wanted, even when I I think it's important as a journalist to very harshly criticize and denise, you know especially people with influence and power is one of your jobs but it's important not to let that effect to you are because it's so corrosive.

harboring hatred and by the way, what matters is people and I would argue animals also um but that's what matters and that I mean that's why we're having these debates because we're trying to fear what the best way to govern people, to live our lives best to structure country. But all of those tasks are designed to produce the same outcome, which is happier people. So if you ceased to care about people, then like, what is the point of the express.

right? Yeah, I had this really fascinating and like actually transformative experience when I was a last student.

And I like you, I was like, you know, in my twenty, you know, I grew up in the eighties, came of vagon the eighties as a as a gay uh teenager like the moral majority and reagan were like, you know the the things I was taught to he like were the threat to me so anything conservative or social and conservative and I had a roommate, and SHE started dating when I was an Oscar le SHE started dating the sky, whose family were like a rush lib, thin attics. And SHE would go there on the weekend and come back. And then he told me he came back once.

He said, there's this form on the internet where all the rush liba conservatives go is sponsored by the national review in the the heritage foundation. IT was a complete service that was some like political forum, SHE said. You have to go in there and just like provoke them, control them and, you know, create all the disruption.

So I did. I started with the all malicious intent. I just like angering them and like creating, like, all kinds of division in there.

You know, to seeing the most of offensive thing is like a possible. We think even then, like the more I state, the more I started, like having debates of them and the conversations with them. And these are like hard core social conservatives.

These were not like the nice conservatives. You just believe in some conservative dog roup. Then like are very like socially egalitarian. This was like in the early nineties as well, when, you know, debates are much different than they are now.

And just my being gay, my being like a lawyer in in manhattan, were like, you know, very even little people, and like the most world parts of the country. And then I got to the point where i'd stayed there for so long and debate with them for so long and talked to them for so long that we started finding commonalities. And then they had this usually event where everybody would go and meet in person, and they invited me to go.

And IT was in some like suburb of inDiana at some like helton. And I was like, you know what, I think i'm going to go. And my friends were like, don't go, you're gonna killed.

It's a trap. This, you know, this is how you're taught to perceive what other people. And I went, I spent the weekend there, and everybody was so warm, is so happy to see me.

I was so happy to see them. And these are the people I was taught wanted me dead. These are the people I was taught that I was supposed to hate and didn't mean like I agreed with our politics anymore than I did previously, that that they agreed mine.

But seeing them as like actually good human beings who have the same concerns alive. They know that sounds so simple, but it's such an important lesson that to learn because our society is constantly trying to divide us. And I think that's very purpose.

Well, what is what? But actually the real dug get in the stories.

the effect that you went, what did you do that? Because I I have been there like eight or nine months, and I felt like these connections were real. I just felt I was almost like I had become part of this community.

And some of them are like a around stoler like writers, like some work for, like conservative outlet. And we always like laugh about. That but I was like my first introduction to like internet debate was at the time when the internet was still like segregated with a well or comply service.

IT was like wasn't like interconnected internet. IT was like very the incipient stages. But I went because I felt like I like these people, and I kind of felt like they like me.

And I originally went in solely with the purpose to promote their hatred toward me and to hate them as well. That was like why I am in and just being around them daily after day after day, like first debating and and convert IT like made me see their humanity. And they saw my, I was just as analyticity of them as they were to me.

I was open the gay, and I was a jewish yer and I was working in in happened and these were like eventually or call like housewives are like business men and like, you know, role georgia or like idaho. And I don't know, I guess we just discovered each other, other's common humanity. And this is a very transformation of experience for me about how you look at other people.

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What a wonderful story will obviously in you maybe latent was like that priority. Other people matter more than anything. yeah.

I also I think that again, like so much of the reason why we end up with the political view we have, like sometimes you see people, people with political views that you just can't comprehend, you think are like molick, productive, insane. A lot of times is because that's what they were formed to be. That's like the byproduct and of their culture and of their ubangi.

And if you have the same Operation, maybe you would think the same things. And I think like the people who do that for a living and keep these destructive of ideologies, those people really warrant your contempt, like the new Crystals of the world and the Victorian newland of the world, those kind of people, people chinese, but ordinary people who don't pay much tends to politics. Like before I really, no, I was like just reading the new york times in the atlantic and the new york care thinking numbers, like highly informed, like a high. And then when I started writing about politics and have like full time to go in the original documents and not having information mediated anymore for me, I realized I pretty rapidly, like almost everything I believe about politics was based on a fraud that was not like my own, you know, my own process of arriving at things critically. I just was stuck with all these ideas that were not mind, but I kind of passively injected ted and that too was a very high opening experience because shocking ah you know you think you're very smart person, you think you're educated and then you realize I well, you're just as suspect able to propaganda .

as and and I do think smart people are people who believe they are smarter of high verbal I Q. You're clearly in that category to elsa extent I am also they are Better itself deception, I think, than any other group because they're smart. They read the atlantic in the new orka, and I read the new york every issue, the yorker, from nineteen ninety three until two thousand and seventy.

Me, every issue. Yeah, yeah. And I thought I was so informed.

And so he was IT a really interesting magazine in the atlantic under my Kelly, and after his death, wonderful magazines like that. You know, Younger people don't even know what we're talking about, but like, magazines were the way that you sort of.

They were like the thing pieces, and they had like a fun of different ideas and them.

because I get on an airplane with my bag, and i'd have like nine issues of the new yorker, the atlantic. I read every single word in all of them. And then as I got older, I realized, like, I had no fucking idea what was going on.

I was actually more misled than someone who hadn't been told anything. He was coming at cold, like I was completely propagandist. I didn't even know that. And I thought I was a free thinker.

Exactly other experience. I don't want to romanticize these kind of things. But I was once in a walkie and I like in a super moai and I like I don't mean to like romance starts like but we middle the country diners but I was in a diner and I was right at the time that the inner set to had this scandal because um they very poorly made handle the source reality winner and unintentionally outed her.

But the whole story was like he had given a document trying to prove that the russians were interfering in the election and they made the front page in new york. So these people who are sitting at this like a jaccard table, who always just like gordin's people, like on their phone, they saw the top story your time and was about the center sub story. I say that no idea was sitting up the next table, but they were really what they were really saying was like, yeah, with all this russia stuff is so hard to figure out what's real, what's knock because and that seems like it's driven by some agenda. I was like, I almost know nobody who's paid to write about politics, who writes about journalism, who has that recognized. Through that distance, they're able to see things so much more clearly than the people .

who are immersed in IT. That is the that is absolutely the truth and the .

most dangerous because the people .

who are I so um I don't even really wanna get into rush. I just can't resist asking you about novelty and his death that happened the day I left russia right right before the unique security right now. Also perfect timing free.

And i'm literally on a plane going through serbia, geneva, wherever you like. I'm totally cut off and all of a sudden land and my phone is just expLoring. No pod just killed them about me.

What was that? I mean, I actually don't have full perspective on just because I was so far away. But like.

what was that story? Well, first fall you we did this on our show actually, for two weeks after the bony's death, IT was definitively asserted over and over and the most authority of tones on every cable channel and in every newspaper that putin ordered a boni killed, that he had, he was his murder. He had ordered his death. And I think you talked about this before, but this was at a time when the house republicans were holding up the sixty billion dollars nine.

There was no reason the world that putin would have, by the way, like you go back twenty years to every president that ever double putin, starting with bill clinton going on and every single one of them was has said he's an incredibly rational restraint, trust, or the person that was only when he had to be turned into the new header. This whole thing reverse. So he is obviously rational. Whatever else you want to say about him.

he's very open, isolated.

He's trained, actually say clusium exactly. And so like, why would he just suddenly tell people it's time for you to kill, not money, like you never met any sense. But we were told this. And also like we have this like cartoonish idea that he like not only is manipulating every event in the last, but also event in russia.

Like he, he must never sleep and he must have called one hundred of him, given how much credit he gets for having like manipulated and controlled every event in his country and in our countries. But IT then turned out, like, just know, three weeks ago, this happened so many times before that the intelligence committee admits that there is no evidence whatsoever that he participated anyway, let them ordered the requested or wanted. Nobody's death.

And we obviously have the you were always told, like we have everything in the kremen, like under this microscopy of surveilLance. And you know how many times this this happen where media outlets have made some kind of assertion? No, russian prisons are incredibly brutal, like a lot of countries are.

They are very, very cold. They don't get good medical care. So I have no, I have. Sounds surprising that the prisoner put in the most brutal russian presence would die, but that's a completely different claim than what they were saying, which was that putin had to ordered him to killed.

And if you look at how many times you know there is is like story in the new york times, exactly when trump s. Is trying to withdraw afghanistan that the C A, A planted with the new york times and ti savage the claim that the russians had put bounties on the heads of american soldiers and were paying the taliban money for every american soldiers that they were killed. And then when lays chi and pro democrats were working together to prevent and book trust the desire without w from afghanistan, that was the only story they cited that keep saying, how can we leave when the russians are, you know, paying to? We're going to be reward russia.

And then three months later, two months later, the intelligence community has very little confidence that that even happened. That is when the story of rush gate from the very beginning, I mean, every single claim that came out as part of rush gate, I mean, they unleash Robert Miller for eighteen months with the dream team of prosecutors, unlimited the pana power, unlimited amount of money. And he then submit a report when he was done with his investigation that said we could not find evidence to establish what became the court conspiracy.

The whole thing that initiated the scandal that drowned our politics for three years, which was at the trump campaign, colluded with the kremen to break into or hacked into the emails of the dnc and enjoy pedestal. And everybody just was like, okay, I guess i'll just move on and to something else. Like the editor and chief of the new of the york time said, we have to confront the fact that what we've let her readers to believe was gonna en.

But this information was going to be discovered. These smoking guns, Robert moir was going to, you know, and least at all, and everyone was going to go to prison. None of IT turned out to be true. This whole story was a fd. This was the scandal that the media drowned our politics in for three years, starting with the middle of the of six, twenty sixteen.

up until twenty eight, or interpret were explaining the one. I really want to hear that, but you just passed over one of the most interesting moments in the last ten years, which was the hack, hack. I don't know what was the theft of emails from the d and from jump test test personal gmail account that wound up on with colleagues.

And the russians were blamed for that. I thought from the first day, I don't know, but I suspected that was not true. What is true about that?

So let me just perfect that because I know how people react to these things, like if there's something that gets presented and then implemented as gospel, and the minute you chAllenge access of being like your craze conspiring, because is something everybody knows is true.

So let me just say, if you look at the last three, forty years american history, the one thing that is, is a constant is that so many of the things we are told are not just true, but unquestionably true. The most consequential things, and of being complete, lies the claim that LED us into the vna more that caused the senate authorized the military force. Vn O M was a claim about the golf of talking that was a complete and total fabrication.

The claim about, although claims that I listen to iraq war, that everybody was so certain up, was a complete and total lie, the thing that drives me to crazy as to this day that never got enough attention is that when that reporting happened from the new york post, based on the documents, one hundred vision's laptop about what they were doing in ukraine, in china, everybody in the media united to say this was russian and dist. Information, when all along that archie was completely authentic and nothing really rush with russia. And IT wasn't just information.

So many time for top, think so definitively. That end up being proven to be lies, to get another example. So the question of how those documents made their way to wiki leagues, obviously, wik leagues insist that they had nothing to do with the russians and didn't get that from the russians. Now that may be true and yet at at the same time the russians say, used so wicky might think you're telling the truth that might actually be to help the truth, but doesn't say that russia wasn't involved.

The problem is that that there are a lot of people who often times I want say IT but who in in public but will tell you in private I mean like very well connected people that they radically disbelieve the claim that the russians hacked IT um and the and the thing is iron mart is one of the best people most knowledgeable on this but there really isn't a lot of evidence that the russians did the hacking. Um you know this firm that they got is a democratic party propaganda firm which is crowd strike. The FBI purposely hit a lot of the information that would have been necessary to examining IT.

I'm not saying the russian is didn't have IT, but i'm just saying conceptual, if you don't clash in especially the truth that are most aggressively shut down your throat after everything we've seen, I think you're an an extremely gobble person in in this case, specifically, there's also a lot of holes in that story. And I think the big problem this is was always my problem through I get from the start was not that the trump campaign in the trump administration was being sabotaged by the u. Security state with the evidence for scandal that did bother me journalistically.

This evidence free assertion that terminated our politics will bother me much more. Was the real agenda, obviously, was to blame russia for everything to such an extent that the americans started once again viewing russia as an existent al enemy. True, the point where american diplomats can speak ker of russian diplomats and washington and everybody was patric ed at meeting with the russian because they would be accused of being a russian spy.

You're talking about the country with the largest stockpile of nuclear weapons, and I believe there's a straight on from the rush gate fraud from convincing people to feed on the anti rationality tive to what we're doing in ukraine, which is sitting on the brink of nuclear, which joe biden said has brought back the world closer to the brink of nuclear catastrophe than anything sixty two most accusal crisis and for some reason we're willing to risk what ever joe biden says is this massive risk of nuclear war that the etheric uh the bolton of atomic scientists has had brought the world closer to midnight which is extinction level uh catastrophe um we're willing to recall that over what I mean IT was obama who always say that we have no bial interests in ukraine. We obviously have no bial interest in ukraine. And so so much of this no kind of deliberate intent to once again convince americans that russia was our grave enemy, was the existent threat, was intervening our democracy, ed, on so many eyes, had a lot of geostrategic implications and and goals, as well as domestic political ones. What what's the .

truth that involves death to put and kill him?

I mean, I can't pretend to know. I know that the U. S. Intelligence committee, the U. S. Intelligence, admits he had no role in a bony's death, or like at least what we were told that he ordered IT. yeah.

Again, I think it's very possible that the money died from the kind of conditions that people often die from in prison very extremely in those parts of russia. Yeah exactly. And you're not exactly like given haters in yourself ells and blankets, i'm sure he was treated very poorly. And see, you can make an argument, I guess, that like russia, the russian government ethically is responsible. What we were told of us that put and ordered IT. And that was a complete and other lives, like so many of the things we were told definite about russia and the russian government over the last of eight or nine years at one of the most insane disinformation campaigns, sustained, enduring and consequently, disinformation campaigns that comes from the very people who insist that they are the sole guardians combatting the dangers of this information.

When does amErica become a free, honest country again?

I think that there are a lot of encouraging signs, even though they seem negative. I love the fact, for example, that americans hate the media and distrust the media pretty much more than any group and that exists except for pedophiles. And the margin is not that large.

Um I think it's incredibly well developed like americans have an intuitive understanding that you know corporate journalism that the dominating of of the media has been announced, their journalistic function in our propaganda. They don't trust them. They believe that they lie on purpose for political ends.

All of that is completely true. So they're turning away more and more from these media s they don't trust them any longer. They're stoning, you know, they're giggling tic media congress, as you know, you work for one. They have a lot of influence and power, but less than they did before. And again, for me, the cause of the free internet is the reason why I moved my show to rumble and moved everything to rumble.

It's one of the few platforms truly devoted to preserving a space of free speech on the internet, which for me is the biggest cause, because the internet, in the ability to use IT to chAllenge establishment orthodoxies, to organize against corrupt power centers, is for me the real cause of hope. But that only can happen if the internet is protected as a free weapon. And that's what what's being assaulted.

Stablished sectors always know the greatest threat to them. They always seek to decorator to come and get IT. And that's what this whole fabricated disinformation experts that appeared overnight after twenty sixteen like these are the people who are the disinformation expert. These groups that are now designed to identify this information that get censored. All of that is about illuminating dissent from the internet and and and disguising political censorship as some sort of a political uh, expertise or science .

safety measure.

Yet online safety experts or online disinformation experts, like where did this dentil come from? It's it's A C credential. Like, but like new yankee is like that online disinformation expert have you ever heard speak?

Like, what do you trust that woman to like, even identify the truth of anything like alone, like a floating arbitron. Like true is true and falls to the point that what SHE decrees is always get censored. But that's the interest. What really happened is in twenty sixteen, you have these dull traumas to western liberal large. One was the decision of the british people to leave the eu, which was an extraordinary thing for a country to do, followed three months or four months later.

McDonald truth, obviously, traumatic Victory over hill clym, from a liberal perspective, I mean, like real trade, like psychologists were saying that they've been flooded with patients, are neurotic, and I can't cope with reality because of their devastation that horrigan lost that like like a real thing. And what they decided, meaning, like liberal western alias, that we could no longer a forty free internet. Because when the internet is free, they can control how people think, how they behave and how they vote.

And that is when you can trace, you can follow the emergence of this extremely well funded this information industry that was designed to a certain authority over controlling what information isn't is in the line. So for me, as long as a free internet continues to exist, you see this all throughout the western, in the democratic world, people are abandoned their faith in institutions of authority. And that abandonment of faith and trust in institutions of authority for me is the most promising development.

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I couldn't go anymore. I would say it's followed in a close second position by the collapse of the neocon governor, said the coin. Christine M, I mean.

i've never seen a more instant act of soft destruction. So how would described .

IT like giving the time on? And Christina, who, by the way, is like a screaming neocon and sort of a conventional liberal posing as a conservative, or whatever? I had a lot of problem. Christmas over the years makes me said that people bought bullshit. But what happens in Christina makes me think that americans are really nice people actually IT turns .

out and that was reformed for me but describe a elected to the house and south the kota that working her way to the political system and and from that became governor um and I think people attributed to her a lot more talent and substance because of that and he actually had so he was never like impressive force at all very like mindless kind of heard animal who just follows whatever dominant ideology SHE has to embrace in order to answer her um but I think her calculation was this kind of cultural calculation that if he talked about what he perceives to be these like farming values that I was going to provoke the discussed and anger of the liberally conservatives would rise in her defense and say, no these are the kinds of traditional values that have been lost and that the american liberal lead are to divorce from.

The problem is, is that not putting bullets into the skills of puppies in order to kill them because you hate them, isn't just in a liberal elite value. One of the things that has happened is that americans love their dogs for a lot of really interesting reasons. I think that gives people a sense of gradually of connection.

All the things have been lost when we now live in cities and working cubicles. People create this kind of connection. People don't have children. They like across the political bedroom, and dogs open people up.

The dogs have evolved to love and be loyal, trusted companions of of humans and humans to dogs, the very deep bond developed over thousands of years of evolution. So there's a lot of things he could have done that might have work in that way. But talking about how he pumped this puppy skull, follow bullets because, quote, I hated that dog is something that provoked almost universal contempt.

And that was gave me a lot of optimism. And IT was even a word story like the list or or audio book. He has audio book where SHE tells the whole story.

He shot the dog but didn't kill IT. SHE had to go back toward truck while the dog was suffering. And from a one, SHE had to then kill IT with a second shot. SHE then to her goat, like minutes later that he also hated, because he said IT smelled them, was mean, put him in the same gravel pit and murdered him.

And then he tells the story that her brother and her uncle, her, I think that too close relatives said, when he came back, we heard about this likes RAM page, or animal slaughter, that you went on, we're going to get out here for you, shoot us. And this was in her book that he read in her own voice, like even the members for her family, thought he was like a psychopath, to the point where he was being endangered, they were ended, they were endangered, because he was often some like murderer rampage. And how he thought that that would engender any sympathy for her of any kind, rather than making a look like this strange monster, is completely beyond me while he .

was trying to pose as some sort of rural exactly.

exactly.

And someone who actually hesba dogs and hunts them a lot, he was proposal like, she's no idea what she's talking about. SHE shot the dog. SHE killed her on puppy because the dog chased and kill chickens. Was a bird dog, right?

Chickens are bird. It's instinct s to do that dog.

of course. And in the idea that this is, like, common in rural amErica is shopping in definition against farmers.

I go, farmers just got around repeatedly murdering about the minute that they don't like their personality. SHE could have obviously given in delay all kinds of a more rescue groups. There were all sorts of things you could have done, but I do think that was that calculation.

But IT was a huge miscalculation. I do think there was like this legitimate conflict between you know east coast cosin and people unlike more traditional farming communities and that's a real issue. But it's not about murdering your dogs. Um and then I think .

it's it's cruelty, mass grating and strength.

Well, I think .

cruelty is not strength. Strong people are not cruel at all. Why would they be strong people are compassionate actually.

right? I think we need to reflect criterias st suffering or death on others is a sign of extreme physical and moral weakness. And this is why you see these people in washington newton, like go Crystal and diving from, but then also like people like gonzi gram.

And you see this in the british commentary, or where, no, they had this empire that theyve not lost. There's a like week, broken in, irrelevant, marginalized the empire. And they speak about the glories and importance of warm more than anybody, because of the way that they feel strong and purple.

And you all these people in washington who constantly, whatever words proposed, immediately embrace IT. Because it's a way that they get to feel strong themselves, like compensation for the internal weakness and cowards that they have. I mean, if you live your whole life and you never display moral or physical courage, you know that about yourself IT pains you.

And instead of them doing something that requires courage, you instead send other people to go breathe their lives in a war that you cheerlead. It's like such a psychologically warped way of of finding IT. It's like stone villa.

IT is obviously a courageous to go and fighting war for cause, but not to send other people to fight the war for cause that require no courage at all. But that is the kind of courage that in washington people constantly embrace in lieu of actual courage is really like a psychological pathology. And it's so transparent.

The weaker the leader, the more arbitrary and cruel to other people.

The leader is yeah. And you see on the interpersonal level to like the way people who treat people who have less power than them, who have less influence than them, who have less, uh, control, there are a lot of people who abuse those kind of people, and it's almost always because those people are weak and that's the way they feel strong. People who are secure in their own strange, treat everybody, as you say, compassionate.

I think that extends the animals as well. Have my dogs to twenty six at home. And then, realizing that that was unsustainable, we then started this shelter where we have another, like, two hundred or so.

Why do you have so many dogs? IT just .

happened organically. I mean, both of my husband, I love dogs. We started rescuing dogs. And then, you know, remember when we had five, but like, no five are limit.

And then, like, you know, someone calls up and saw, I just found two dogs that were hit by a car on the street. And they need, you know, uh, surgeries or they are gna die. They are suffering and we are okay.

Let's let's take those because what five and seven? And then you're like at seven and you're like, yeah, what seven and seven and night and then that's how you got to twenty six dogs. But you know, there's there are all rescue dogs, are all dogs who have been found in the street bias usually, but but also by friends who were in various states of distress. Lots of them have been abandoned. They're like patric, ed and traumatize and abuse and when you have you know the ability of like the blessing of financial security, you can use IT for pure material consumption, just buying more things, you know trying to get another house of private plane, whatever.

Um honestly just provides me with no happiness or satisfaction at all IT really doesn't IT just doesn't do anything for me in the ability to use IT to help those in need um gives me so much more happiness and gratification you can almost say it's like a selfish and dever because IT IT provides me a happiness of other things don't and you know also like when you have a shelter, there's nothing we're beautiful. And connecting a dog with a family and then hearing three months later about how the dog is integrated into the families life and seeing pictures of that dog laying on a sofa with this family when they had been on the streets, real giono like virtually dead from a starvation or from disease, and you would nurse them back to help. And then you place them in a family, like, you have to figure out one of things that actually give you meaning and purpose and happiness in life.

And open omy are not the things as a society, he tells us, are the things we should strive after. And that was a lesson I had to learn by chasing all the things that society teaches you, you're supposed to chase. And then when I grab them, and I thought I was going to make me happy, and found that actually we'd be more vacant and emptier than I knew that I had find. The things that actually gave me happiness, I think, is one of the most important lessons you can learn.

Holder, you, when you made these realizations.

I mean, I always love dogs, like, when I was Young, like, we are these two dogs. I love next door. And I was like, get home from school. The first thing I would do is look for them and call them, and they would hang out of my house. And I remember they just open things up for for me and so well.

But I was really like in my late thirties and early forties when I had like professional success and financial stability, and none of that my work was known and IT wasn't really providing got a personal happiness. So I was I I don't want to keep chasing after things that don't actually provide me happiness, even if society respect those that we started being open more to the things that gave us happiness and like ultimately um i'll tell this quick story which is uh I never wanted to be a father ever who was never part of my identity. I never thought would be good father.

I hate imposing authority on other people. I hate up telling other people what to do. And my husband, I was always like being at that was his dream. I was who he was.

And he spent years like convincing, persuading, the jolly, pressuring, manipulating me to want to adopt kids when we would go out to dinner and convinced either y'll be a couple of the next table who he arranged to be there and we were talking and they had A W kids and would tell a talk about all the joys of IT took years to can. Convince me. And when I finny said yes, we more accurately found the two perfect kids and is like orphant agent, northeastern brazil.

And the transition, obviously, to our lives, couldn't have been a more radical abroad tly different. It's like, you know, adopting a kid out of poverty and this is sipping in bringing them to like ah you know high rise apartment in manhattan is obviously everything is different. And I think the thing that helped most in the transition, as soon as they got there, we were like, you have all these dogs.

They had a dog at their orphanage, so they are do like dogs and we were like, pick one and that dog is going to be your dog, you take care of bit, you say that and they picked like one of the sweet is like most affectionate ate dogs in the pack. And SHE became like the thing. They were always hugging.

And I think SHE did more to like, give them comfort, insecure, thirty and safety, being ganged out of the one environment and put in totally new one, and set the capacity for dogs to, like, transform people. Or, you know, know, there's all kind of studies about how animals can reach autistic children, but nothing else can. Or to even like rehabilitate prisoners.

You can dislike harden violent criminals. Now they have these dog programs where they take them in and they connect to these dogs and care for them in ways they never done with humans before. Obviously, there is something, you know, that's the reason why, if you see cruelty to animals, not just dogs, is the thing that like riles people up the most on the internet.

Obviously, animals are here. They're beautiful and majestic. We've always hunted them and killed them for food. But we've also obviously have something in us that makes us feel an extraordinary employ to them into me. They're like the thing, one of the most beautiful things the .

planet has offer, and especially dogs. I M, I, I don't think we understand why dogs are here, why we have this with them. Dogs are the only carnal, capable of killing people that people have ever domesticated.

And that domestication occurred like much earlier than we ever thought. right? Think at the begin of recorded history.

And you see those old fossil drawings of, like.

men and dog hundred percent yeah. And what you know, what does make you think that there are some purpose of supernatural element here? Like what is that?

I mean that the thing is, you know, i've seen just over, over, over, not just in my work with dog, but personally, like in my really with dogs, they can do things for you and reach you and connect to you empathetically. And emotionally in a way that other human being can they obviously, you know, they perceive things physically that we can perceive the hear sounds. Of course we can't anticipate things.

They feel things in the atmosphere that are threats and reacting them before we even that there they are, set abilities. Human, i'm think, even emotionally, like you can deceive another human about the state of your emotion so much more easily than you can deceive your dog like your dog and know when you're sad, they know when you're happy, they know when you you're said in a way that you can't hide that from them like they just perceive that they're so connected to you. And obviously, there's the whole thing about teaching about unconditional love and White tea that we can learn from dogs as well.

Um but yeah you just see and that's why I think the Christian known thing was such a that because there are very few things at this point that can unite everyone in america. Are americans independent of political ideology or society omc background or anything else? And the fact, bitch, he was so cruel to this dog, created a revulsion that transcended almost every single category. SHE really united people in contempt for what he had done. And I found the ability of dogs to do .

that so fascinating. It's one of the one of the great joys in life and i've experienced IT really intensely. Um let me ask you about brazil. So you have you have .

this kind of A A fear stance .

about you um that puts you in these coalitions for a time and then you sort of you're abandon by them and attack by from allies whatever put you in this weird position where you're living in a country that the former president jb oro at one point thread to put .

you in prison now and they brought, I was criminally indeed, I forgot about that.

And now lua is running your country, I guess, sort of at least an name, name, name. And there is a very left regime in charge, left whatever that is. But globe, global, 在 government。 How has life in brazil changed under this new government and how is IT affected you?

So there is phrase um brazil is not for amateur s which is basically designed to indicate bed there's really open time is no ideology or no like obvious political lenses is very transactional. Usually the people running brazil and not the president or the elected officials are these permanent power. Paction is similar to in washington.

Um you know my I never wanted to be involved in politics but my husband end up as you know, elected official. He was first elected as a city council um in rio and then an elected member of congress in brazil. I started a brazilian version of the intercept, the intercept brazil.

So and I did a lot of reporting with during this noting thing on brazil, I became very grated into the brazilian media. He was obviously integrated into brazilian politics and said we both were part of this kind of action that we never really want to to be part of. But like just takes you there when the the most significant reporting I did was in two thousand and nine where there was a spraying anti corruption probe and the judge was leading, IT became this national hero.

And when bolsena was elected in twenty eighteen, a big break from prior brazil elections were usually central at row of the parties. One he made, that judge who would have been a corruption probe, the most powerful person in the country. He was the minister of, not just the minister of justice.

And national security was like this, views, positions specifically for him to put the entire security service under his control. About two months and the least, he was a judge, but he then left at the judge. He come part and he got the probe that put all in jail when bolton or was elected in twenty teen gool was in prison on corruption charges of this judge, sergio o oversaw and convicted.

Well, there's not a jury try in brazil convicted him and then sends him till the seven years in prison I mean, lu was a tutera president, a giant on the world stage, left office of the eighty six person approval rating and they turned him in to a criminal and arrested a lot of other uh, people on corruption charges like billionaire and oligarchs in a way that a lot of people were supported about. The first, including me, two months of most of our presidency, I get a contact from a source who had hacked into the phones of that judge. Prosecutors, the most powerful people in the country, said there was evidence of all kinds of corruption, turned IT over to me, the entire file, similar to what happened with with.

And we were able, based on that reporting, to expose this judge when the most correct people in the country, I mean, he used corruption and illegal means to put the people he wanted to imprison, including ruler. And so six months after we began, the reporting rule was gel. As a result, reporting, I became enemy number one, along with my husband of the bolsters, our movement. I mean, it's hard to overstate at the level threats we got, the the attacks on our personal lives, like the fabled ricked stories and an ultimately culminating in a criminal endiama that charged with, I got hundred and twenty six baLances as a coconut or with my source. So IT wasn't a game, you know, and both hate to me.

but never did you ever consider this running away. You're not brazilian by birth.

no. But by this point, you know, not only is my husband zilia, but by children in their brazilian. So, and I sider american, my country, the only country of which on the ism never happened. But you know, the fact my children are zone, I see IT is their country, in a country that I want to fight for, not fat from. I never for a moment consider leaving.

I just like, absent some very imminent threat, I just would never do that, even if, and you can't look yourself in the mirror like stolen, taught me that a lot, you know, snowden did something and sold join the sound that they knew had a serious risk putting them in prison. Daniel elsberg, one of my childhood heroes, did the same. And so that, to me, became kind of the thing I aspire to, like the idea of running away from a threat because you're scared of something and sacrificing your cause you believe is right, would just make me look at myself in a very negative way for the rest of my life.

I would not want that on my conscience. I wouldn't want to think of myself that way or my life having been formed by fleeing or by running a lad of fear. So IT was very trying though and but we stayed and we everything we did um ultimately ended up uh having a huge effect, changed the course of the country.

I mean the war was a little prison convictions were reversed. This judge went from university bof hero to you know a hated figure handed up leaving the bolsin government um so that all happened and we were heroes of the left and hated more than anything by the brazilian right. At the same time when bulsara was elected, they started to become this reaction to him, not just by the brazilian lap up, by the brazilian establishment, by the brazilian center right.

Very similar to the way that in the united states, those kind of never trump center right establishment taran, all of our institutions of authority had to like extreme fear of trump because he represented a populist uprising ing the site chAllenge to the establishment power. The same thing happened in brazil, and you had this one judge on the supreme in court and supported by a lot of others, he was never a left. This he's not a leftist.

He comes from this very center right politics. S is like a pauli or which mechano figure um and he became the leader of this effort to crush the boss in our movement and bolton ara himself using extra legal means, just like we're seeing in united states with these uh fabricated prosecutions of fare against the truck. And despite the fact that there was a hero of the often utterly hated by bolts and arrow and his point, to the point they really try to imprisonment or deport me, I began speaking out very vocally against this judgment.

One of the main tactics used was political censorship. They started imprisoning people. For questioning copy, but particularly for defending the bulsara movement, you started having exiles like journalists and bloggers and activists fleeing the country from very good reason to the united states to avoid prosecution. At the hands of this one judge, he became completely of us, but he became a hero of the left because he was basically imposing authoritarians m montoni against balls in his movement.

And this was a guy who, because he was on the center rate, was aided by the left for years, you know, as a racist basis, all the things they call people and when they hate them but he became through this console lidity of judges power and his use of IT ways are classical authoritarian um as a hero of the left in the number one figure of the hated right and I was the wanted the only people who was not a place on our so who was not on the bosonic right to speak out and I didn't just speak out and I denounced IT constantly on a column, the biggest brazilian paper I was using my column to just attack and constantly and he was the same kind of hero as that prior, geez, was who had the anti corruption prove, who whose reporting we were, we able to use reporting to expose. And so overnight, I started to become an enemy of the left and made a lot of new friends among golden. Our east is including the ones who were trying to impress me just two years or later and have to say, like you never really think you're going to see actual tourney.

Y, and this was the closest i've ever gotten like you have, we thought authoritarian, a things in united states happened. It's what impelled into about journalists, the abuses of similar liberties after the warm terr in the name of terrorism, but nothing like a figure of this sort. And this is the first time my career as a journalist where I ever had a fear of what would happen if I actually criticize this political figure.

And you know, you're living in expressive regime when you feel a fear, even somebody like myself who has a lot of protection, a lot of platform, a lot of like international variety. But I really did worry about what would happen if I was going to criticize because other people who did were punish in put into prison um and i'd ve been knowing IT very vocally and loudly since theyve attacked ed, similar people. He opened a criminal investigation into Michael sheen burger, the journalists who did the brazil twitter files.

They they actually open a criminal investigation into them. They've never done IT against me, I think, again, because I have a certain kind of perform and protection, and including the fact that the current president of brazil is out of prison because of my reporting, something he's often publicly stated, the minute he got at the person, the first person he called when he got home, me to thank me for everything i've done. So I think it's very difficult to do that. But again, like if you have that kind of platform, I think you're obligated to use IT in ways of other people can because they're fear because if you don't think who will, who is the judge? The eland's dimer is his name is the person that you on must begin attacking because you know, rumble, which is where my show is, is no longer accessible in brazil unless use of V P N.

I can't watch my own show in brazil because if you try and access rumble in brazil, you'll get h thing saying this site is blocked um because of how many censorship borders rumble was getting from the brazilian court that they refused to comply with and now is what he I must have to do was he said we're getting so many unjust censor reporters that we're going to refuse to obey them even that means we get kicked out of result now he didn't follow through on that. But the fact that he made that a scandal he talked about the judge about to being this kind of like repressive figure um created a kind of debate that was well needed um but twitter didn't end up following through. They actually ended up saying, no, no we will obey all the century reporters in order to stay in brazil.

But, you know, this is real oppression. But it's not a left wing kind of impression. IT doesn't come from luu. This guy is not a left. This, what he is, is part of that establishment power that was fearful of in contempt to us of wasson aro and used authoritarian power to stopped balsa movement to protect establishment authority. Very, very similar to what's happening in united states with respective trump in his movement.

How long can you stay there? I am.

I'm gna stay in that when you get my kids are are you know teenagers there there are now teenagers. Their their life is in brazil. They are brazilian theyve never in the country and approve them to force them to live another country um is not going to abandon them there. The thing by far most important to me um and I feel like the work i'm doing is in defense of a country that I want to be free because that's theirs um i'm not saying there's never anything that can force me to brazil, but I really felt an immediate imminent threat to my personal safety or and my families who knows but if if you find yourself running away from those kind of fears, IT defines the person that you .

are completely agree and as as you said correctly, you know you can face itself if you know that you're powered on the other hand, brazil, I think is a wonderful country for the record, is also the kind of country where they could, you know, have you killed to make a look like crime yeah and I mean.

you know, obviously you during the snowing reporting, we took all a lot of precautions because we had an archive that was the most valuable archive, not just the U. S. Government, but to every other government on the planet, into all kinds of non state actions.

I would Carry around with me on my backpack. The archive fails because that they want to give them at home that contained, you know, some of the most sense documents that exist on this planet. There were obviously a lot of security risk at the time.

We had to have security at our house constantly. Security everywhere left. Same thing when I was doing the reporting that free from prison, we had consent to our physical safety.

I couldn't lead the house about ARM garage either, could my husband, my kids. So, you know, I don't just walk around freely on the street because I realized that there are threats s that, but i'm not. And right about that, I don't want turn our house into A A fortress. But you know, you take precautions against some. There's never rests you can completely eliminate.

Do you think the to my last question, do you think this the authoritarian m, that's obviously descending on the world. Is that a permanent state? Is this accelerating? Or is this just as sort of an interlude that we're going laugh about roughly in ten years?

Well, this is what the point always make, you know, because I talk all about on my show, which primarily has american audience about what's happening in brazil. And I stress the reason they should care isn't just because brazil, really a large country with huge resources and a lot of importance on the geopolitical stage, the second largest in our hemisphere, which would be reason enough.

It's because the united states, not exactly the same sector, maybe just a couple steps behind. And what all of these countries in the democratic world are doing in western europe, in canada, was just in canada, because there are shockingly oppressive law that provides for prison sentences for hate speech on the internet. Prison senses up to seven years yeah and and actually if you're accused of exciting or defending genocide, you can be put in the prison for a life under this bill.

I mean, this bill is shocking. I went to canada, uh, to do events against the same ball, not because i'm canadian or car back end up because what's happening is everyone of these countries is using the other as a laboratory for how far they can go. So every time one country takes another step toward consolidate control over the internet, what canon campy said that shows other countries the space that they now have to go forward as well.

It's completely interconnected. Every time the u. Or the U. K, or ireland, or canada or brazil take steps forward to consolidate censorship, control of internet Normal, change exactly and IT IT completely to transforms what the population .

comes to think is Normal again. Now is that in exhorted this move toward one thousand nine hundred eighty four.

the internet is such a fascinating innovation because IT has such a dull edge potential. On the one hand, they can be this unique and unprecedented two of the mancipation and liberation that was its promise and potential.

On the other hand, you can also be a tool of unprecedented coercion in control, because if IT is no longer free, if IT can be used as a method of ubiquity surveilLance in information control, I think I can become a close system that is almost impossible to work. You're way out of. And that's why, to me, there is no more important battle. Then keep in the internet free, free terms of privacy and free terms of speech. Because IT is increasingly the only way that we really communicate, spread ideas of on another.

Does A I technology make that more or less likely to happen?

Think IT makes a lot more likely to happen. And that's why I was so alarming to see those original uh, versions of A I like ChatGPT that obviously had all kinds of political ideology imposed on IT where you could even get factual answers to certain questions because the designers of ChatGPT wanted ideological lines to super seed factual accuracy. And so you would ask questions of IT and the answers that you got. We're completely depended upon the ideological perspective, those who are designed. And I found that extremely arming.

Is there any um indication that that's going to change?

I mean, again, IT goes back to what we talked about a little bit earlier, which was which is that I think there is this extreme unrest and dissatisfaction on the part of populations in western government said, even if they don't follow politics closely, even if they're not very engaged, it's amazing that the biggest voting block in the united states are people who just don't vote, choose not to vote because they don't think that matters, is where the other.

And on somewhere, we are probably right about that. But even people who aren't very politically engage had this intuitive sense that there's is something deeply corrupt about power factions and institutions of authority. And I think that kind of dissatisfaction that is being exploded by some clever politicians and positive ways or negative ways is obviously a prerequisites.

Everybody is content and happy and beliefs they're free and that things are going well, then it's impossible to get people to uprise and change. But when they start really believing. That things are radical eye. That's why there's all these politicians who have nothing in common a little than the fact that they promise to hate and wage war against the establishment forces that are controlling people's lives, that people want those agents of disruption and a virgin in there, because they know that the status go is something that is kind of very evil and very oppressive, and that senses incredible, important to preserve.

Do you think that the forces of light have a chance against the forces of darkness?

I think everybody who does what you do or I do um who wakes up and talks about these issues and works on them inherently has a sense of optimism. Because you didn't you wouldn't do IT. What would be the point? The only reason to do any of these things is because you believe that what you're doing can actually have an impact.

You make a positive, uh, outcome and helps to contribute a positive outcome. So I really believe in the capacity of human reason, of human persuading, but also just like an intuitive sense that human beings have to understand and almost intuitively, when they're being threatened, what kind of wonder being eve, when they're being, uh, subject to corrupt and abusive power. And all of history is uprising and rebellions, revolutions against establishment, uh, authority, including ones that seemed completely inaction, involve I mean, the whole enlightenment was to overthrow monarch and churches that had dominated in electrical life for centuries.

And we've seen that over and over. And let's think it's very hard to look at human history and conclude anything other than any kind of structure that is built by human beings can be wait, war against and torn down and release by other human beings. And I absolutely think that the tools are here and those of the tools we have to defend clean, Green wood.

Thank you. Yeah, talk you, talk you. Thank you.

Thanks for listen, the tucker crosson show. If you enjoy IT IT, you can go to tuck her crosson not calm to see everything that we have made the complete library, tucker carlson dot com.