Medical Ethicist Charles Camosy Debunks Media Lies About Abortion and Kamala’s Love for Infanticide
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So let me let me ask you um the trump campaign has an indoor trump himself at at the presidential debate has accused common Harris and ten mills of supporting infant aside, which is to say laws that allow doctors to kill children possible ability and allow them to stand by as babies born in bush abortions die and the media in the democratic party the same thing have pushed back ferociously on this fact tracked um you know you're medical ethicists. This is right. The center of what you study for a living is that true.

is absolutely true. And until this whole political thing got in the way everyone knew was true, I was doing my dissertation note today on neo 7 bioethics。 And I rounded with neonatal teams in hospitals in united states, in europe, and everyone knew that not only in the abortion context you're discussing, but in many other kinds of context, we would just simply choose not to treat certain children, especially if they were too disabled.

And we would call IT comfort care. We call IT something else. But everyone knew exactly what was happening. So it's not just a version case far from IT. It's just a matter routine and that you use across the country, around the world.

okay. And this is long standing. yeah. I mean.

for instance, you could do IT in a way where you bypass appearance is called slow coding or show coding, where the medical team basically says, you know, i'm not sure this baby is a, or I think this baby is too disabled, right, or has have too hard of life. It's not in this baby's interest in living the couple wants to do everything. The family wants to do everything we don't agree with IT. And so it's a well known practice actually to show code or slow code your way into getting the outcome you want.

That's without the family IT. So hospitals kill people's kids are telling him.

I mean, it's a little more complex than that. It's not what trump unfortunately uses the phrase when he talks about IT particular champion way execution right is not as if there is like a pillow put over their head or a sharp object is used or even like a poison is um administered. It's more like throwing someone away or discarding them in a way that that keeps them comfortable. So um it's called the comfort care, the debate over the law, minnesota, that is prompted on which debate over this insist that the babies be given comfort care but that's actually hiding what's actually going on in these particular look up and they're given in comfort care because they're not given the typical care that .

others what is comfort care?

It's mostly a kind of palate care or a sense of trying to keep someone um for not feeling pain or something .

like this like given .

a movies yeah or keeping the the temperature appropriate and that sort of thing. Um in fact, the former governor of Virginia, right was caught on tape essentially or not caught on tape. I gave a radio view saying this happens all the time, the baby would be cut comfortable and then, uh, he said, i'll tell you what would happen.

The baby would cup comfortable. And then we make a decision together with the parents about what exactly to do. And he said this in his interview, right, very matter of factly, and he was right to do so because until recently, this was not a controversial thing or is a controversial thing, but is not controversial if this .

goes on at all and you're saying that goes on. I mean, there's so many questions here when I think I wasn't this happening with children. I mean, of course, with the elderly at the request of the patient very often physician stop treatment right, would strikes me as fine.

I know something that I would want. I know most don't want extraordinary treatment. You know nineteen or something um but you're saying it's very come with children and then you're further saying that IT happens without the parents knowledge or consent. That strikes me. How is that not a crime?

That should be a crime but it's and IT, to be clear, doesn't happen very often, right? This is that is not routine slow coding or show coding.

No slow coding, coding means death rate.

Well, coding is is specifically uh, coding in somebody as a particular kind of patients. So if its full code, you do everything to save the child's life, right? But if it's a different kind of code, like say, a dnr right, or a different kind of code would put in to say we're not going to do anything to say the person which is told the legitimate and many other context right at the end of life, we might make a choice about how to live right and say I want to live the rest of my life in this very .

particular way. So i'm going to have a .

um slower show coding.

I'm starting up. sure. Just to be clear as an ethos.

you're OK with that. Yeah yeah. As long as what we're saying is it's a choice about how to live, not a choice about dying, right? So I say I want to live the rest of my life without a chemotherapy or without other aggressive treatments and to use the language of um moral physical y moral theology.

Oh X, I forsee, but done in town, that death is going to be the likely result of this or death will be sped up as a result of this. Totally fine, totally legitimate. And centuries we've been doing this. Um it's quite different, of course, to say either as a person yourself or as a medical team or as a surrogate for another person to say, uh let's not treat you so that you die right like its we are aiming at your death, we are trying to kill you and the context of abortion um reveals exactly what's going on here so tim walls and company in minnesota specifically revote laws in that state to say, um yeah I know we have this infant and borne lie protection act here, but we need to make IT available to uh medical teams and others when there is a botch abortion to give the baby only come for care and let them die but we know that is not um for seeing but not intending death because there was an abortion attempt right that wasn't attempt to kill and so the attempt to kill is transferred over into the newborn context and so we'll just doing a biometry right we call IT come for care again um but let me give you another example how this work sometimes uh and very often uh parents uh are encouraged to have abortions in these cases where where um they choose not to right they push back on the medical team like if there is A A baLance syndrome diagnosis for instance. Primarily the medical teams this is well documented, will push them time and time again to have abortions even very prolific panado justice focus parents get bombarded .

by medical team again live live and um yes, with a false diagnosis without even getting about me, but all my family. But I know for a fact that what you're saying is truckers, i've seen IT with my own eyes.

It's extraordinary. And what sometimes happens uh in this again reveals what's actually happening in in the post birth context. Uh, these teams will get so frustrated they'll say, okay, we can't convince you to have an abortion.

There are still things we can do after birth, right? So if you say there was this case I just saw recently of a child who was diagnose print, ati was fine, a biff da and and the medical team tried to get the the mom to abort and was unable to do so and the uh O B G Y said, uh, okay um we can still choose not to treat the child after birth. I'll give the child comfort care after birth. Now you might be able to say in the abstract, what exactly is going on here is IT more like for seeing, but not intending death, but you know exactly what's going on here. Because the whole point, trying to kill the are trying to kill the kid.

the child, to disable you. I mean I have thought this for you know almost thirty years since I first saw but how can someone like that be allowed to be a doctor in our country if you're pushing a mother to to kill er a child like this is not the opposite of your job.

you would think so we we have a lot of good doctors who would don't participate in these .

kinds of things. So do we have a lot .

of I don't believe you, we have a large number um who either feel a neutral about this or who feel a positive about IT who are who are active in IT and and let me just give you an example how the thought process goes I rote an article about this for the public discourse um called the right to a dead baby question mark and the way that they sort of tried to justify and I I cite all the literal in this article justifying this claim the way they justified as they say, well you know, after a certain time we would never neglect the baby to death and call a comfort care because we've decided that there is a new person here that we're saving actually who's disabled right and um but before that time and it's for for every uh medical team or every doctor will vary um they think of IT more as um stopping an individual or who is disabled from coming into existence. Right now we're talking about newborn children here are a neo nato children here and this is well documented again uh the article is in the public discourse the right to a dead baby question mark and I said all all the research that shows that this is how um this is thought of and what's so interesting about this talk ker, is this is what's I think if we think about history, if we think about the bagging greek and roman culture that exists to before Christian and on the kim on the scene, these are the kinds of judges that were made before a Christian ethic came to dominate our culture in the west because, as you probably know, IT was thought of is not a big deal at all in any increase in room to simply discard children that were too disabled or were female female are too expensive for many are families and so they were just discarded and it's no surprise that as we have um repeat onions ed as the Christian culture has retreated especially in medicine right circular ize medicine .

is deeply .

deeply problematic and dominant at the moment. Even in in some context, we might not expect that to be um we are it's no accident we're moving towards this practice.

It's a little weird of sex lex of abortion is defended by feminists, which I just find I mean, I don't take feminist very seriously, but I even by their low standards, that seems hard to explain if your job is to defend women and fight against anyone who thinks of women is less valuable than men, how can you not say anything when sex elective abortion changes the demographic? Mixon said. The biggest country in the world, china. I don't understand that.

I mean, it's no accident that that abortion is used as a tool of oppression for uh for this in in in china and other places. Um it's no accident that I was used this way in h increase in rome. Um the disabled were also uh very much um uh part of the group that would have been discarded.

And just give you a sense of how you bit a big IT was before Christians came on the scene. There were systems in place where you would sometimes abandoned your baby in specific areas and um with the hope that maybe somehow they would not die from exposure or beaten by animals or something, but maybe they're be picked up by slavers, right, or sold prostitution or something like this. Even the early church fathers said, one reason you ouldn't visit a prostitute among the many is IT could be a kind of instance, perhaps because so many people in this area where would be exposed, and then prostitutes, right, might have a family member going to tell you one other case that just shows it's it's terrible.

But IT IT IT shows how you bike with that you bic with, as IT was, we have a ancient to pyrus letter from I think it's the year one ad of a migrant worker named hilarion who is writing his pregnant wife Alice. And he's he's an alex Andrea doing migrant work and he's worried that because his bodies are gna go home, we don't know quite where home is, but they're going to go home and he's worried that he might um think that he is abandoned her because he's not going to go with them so he's riding her same do I don't worry, i'm gonna you the money. As soon as I get IT, i'm going to stay in all eggs, andrey, and try to make some more money by the way, if you're pregnant oh and he says I take care of our love ones so they already have kids um take care of our our little one and by the way, if you're pregnant, if it's a boy, keep IT if it's a girl threw out out.

K by essentially that's it's an amazing letter. It's revealed so much about the culture, including, again, when you don't have a Christian ethics that says all human beings are equal, right? When doesn't matter how old you are, does not matter how Young you are, how disabled you are, how expensive you are, how cal burden sum you are, that vision of the good is not present in precision pag agreeing room and increasingly it's not president and in our own reaganites ing culture .

and IT wasn't you know present in supposedly Christian eur and the thirty forties. And I just find it's so interesting that, you know, we spend a lot of time, eight years later, talking about the on seas. And obviously on sees are pad.

Everyone agrees that very much, including me. But the one thing that we almost never mention is that before they started rounding up other populations, the not killed hundreds of thousands, about three hundred thousand germans in hospitals are the disabled children. A lot of them had comfort care. But IT was murder. And we never talk about that for some reason and it's sort of weird to see the american medical establish, I think, things of itself as it's where to see them embrace not A U gens policy because that's exactly what they're doing IT sounds like at .

the um early stages of life. Yes, I think it's no accident. This is defended as kind of an extension of abortion, which is a sacred cow that apparently we find a very difficult to ask questions about, even even just very basic critical questions about saving lives after birth. There is a little more hope, I think, at the end of life of the american medical association still says um that physician assistance suicide uh can be a consistent with any rational understanding what health care is as is still explicitly said by by them though it's under fire every year and the beginning of medical ethics was actually the neuron berg trials, the the secular medical ethics, the new berg trials which which called out a lot of these practices.

Then i'm aware of that and i'm grateful for the qualification of the lessons of the second war in our medical ethics um in this what you do for a living but it's just kind of weird to see that same medical establishment embrace not see medical ethics um which they have so does .

anyone say that yeah I mean it's the as you know, the critique uh your annoy is so overused that it's sort of losses. It's bike sometimes.

but with being in not means anything IT means utilizing .

children who aren't fit, right? And that sort of mentality was only possible with the retreat of a Christian ethic right in not germany. And increasingly, as the retreat of the Christian ethics today takes place, we're finding that more and more difficult to um to martial the resources to say why we shouldn't have very similar kinds of practices.

Canada is already almost totally lost cause in this regard we ve had IT in the netherlands and belgium switch garland for some time. Many us states have adopted this. Unfortunately I do think it's interesting that some deep blue states out here hand the east coast have ever resisted in part because the disability .

rights community .

in ethiopia right right um so so yeah we're talking about uh uta ia physician sst suicide. In fact I think both um or maryland, new york. Uh connecting all these states are just resisted well funded attempts to try to legalize physician .

so whose whose funding the attempts to to kill um who's paying for that? Yeah I I don't .

have all of the information about that, but the main activist group is a group called compassion and choices um formally known, as you may know, as the hammock c society, the charmingly named hemlock society might imagine why the boy got together and change their name to compassion and choices um uh but uh and they've been successful they're been successful in california theyve been successful um in my hometown in jersey unfortunately .

who is the donors to compassion and choices to the pro killing?

That's a good question. I'll tell you.

I don't know the it's where that they're not famous because if you're now pushing the medical establishment in the state, inevitable the state is the state really does control health care to murder people or convinced them to, quote, kill themselves because they are like poor or unhappy, then you're a monster and you should be, one would think .

I can imagine donors not wanting to be publicly know. So maybe this is just pure speculation. I don't know. Maybe maybe there's a place we can look this up and be good to know about these questions. Yeah but a you know what's was interesting about this is um they are wealth under and they have um narrative that they like uh they can use their ended resources to promote and one of those narratives is very sympathetic and narrative right like how could anyone we were just talking at breakfast, right how can anyone see somebody the the end stage of their life for iraq pain, lose the control, their bodily functions know like that's almost where everyone goes is right first example um well .

because that's where really almost everyone goes in life. I mean that is what having seen we bowled a certainty, people die who we love ah and that is what IT looks like. It's unbearably painful and ugly and sad you know it's the worst thing. Um so that is a compelling argument.

That is what is not widely known though is that is a misleading argument because um or again, for instance, has had legalized physician is to killing sense to and never has physical pain ever made. The top five reasons, people in organ request physicists of killing the number one reason is fear of a loss of autonomy also in the top five is fear of being a bird on others of course.

Um you can understand why disability rights communities are some of the most effective and energetic uh resisters of these practices because when they say things like loss of autonomy, fear of enjoyable activities, which is another loss of enjoyable activities, fear of being a burn, other's disability, rice communities say that sounds a lot like us so you tell us we're sort of making this judgment that people like us maybe have the kind of lives that should be killed or like not worth living anymore. And I think that's actually interesting to think about why these blue states out out here have been successful. I think it's pretty clear actually that the arguments made by disability rights groups saying we matter just as much as anybody else um have been so far persuasive IT shows us that the Christian ethnic fundamental human quality is not totally died because again, these are populations without that Christian that would otherwise just .

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Yeah i'm so mad at the downturn drome people that it's it's hard to accept your saying but I know that is true. I don't understand why the downside ndr me groups haven't said something about the genocide of people towns syndrome um and I think they should be ashamed of their characters but that isn't mean that they're on a great disability .

rest rights groups well it's interesting to think about how can we do a Better job on r and as as proliferation welcome, we need them at at the fight at the beginning of life for prennent o justice and neonatal justice now um because I can is not just abortion. These babies who are neglected to death very often have disabilities and where we're targeted for abortion in the first place, precisely because they had disabilities.

And so I think there seems to be some movement now post jobs um I was hardened by the language that J. D Evans used in a recent debate um with with government walls um thinking about ways to expand the pro life message in ways that would be focused on social support and broaden the message out in in ways that are really helpful. And I think if we continue on that track, we might be able to to bring in some of the disability rise groups into the five for printing t just because totally right that that it's I mean it's it's a mass slaughter. I think that's why we need to talk about IT. Well.

how can you get up to me like I am advocating for people with downside ndr me and i'm so grateful someone is, of course, and then ignore the fact that they are basically, they have been eliminated by prennent o testing and an abortion. They've been targeted for killing and it's succeeded. And if you run again, i'm just grounding an action.

But I wrote about them thirty years ago. I've never forgotten the ark. Like, have you been asma?

We get in. I've been in part of the project movement for a very long time now. My first real job was actually communications director for pro.

Life was constant back in the day. Um so i've been around the movement a long time and i've i've been aware of attempts to reach out, especially the beginning of life. Our relationships are really solid at the end of life, really solid begin of life.

We have this political stuff going on that makes IT very difficult. But again, I think we're at this moment perhaps where um it's clear something is clearly shifting in the pro live movement. I think um along with our politics that would make IT easier to welcome those folks in. If I can tell you, just want the story to to highlight um why this is moved me so much too IT sounds like you have a lot of stories in your background I was giving a talk kind of post mortem after the two thousand and sixteen election h uh with uh um in connective I think I was on a panel discussion with that and I was talking about um this very topic you know abortion and the and and the slaughter of disabled people.

The abortion and after the talk this gentle man in his seventies with A A guy I later learned was his son and his thirties clearly had done synergy came up to me and he just thanked me that the older gentleman and said, you know, nobody ever talks about this, as you point out, nobody ever talks about thank you for bringing that up. I lost my wife, you know, two years ago, and all I have in my life now is my son. He's the joy of my existence. And, you know, it's so hard to hear the kinds of things we hear about abortion and and how it's used against people like him. In middle was talking, guy is probably as thirties, just grab me and hug me .

as hard as ever been hugged in her yes.

because he feels the two he can't really articulate as well, but he he feels the surrounding .

culture well, I mean, I know you know, any time you're around somewhere down cnl, I will speak for myself anytime. I've been around some dn syndrome. The spirit coming off that person is really unlike any other person you meet.

I mean, it's just hard to imagine, you know, thinking that it's good to get rid of people like that. I mean, there is just a kindness that it's impossible. Not 真的 是。

And there there is data now to support this. If people with downs syndrome actually rate their lives happier than .

those of us who don't have downs syndrome, I couldn't be less shocked by.

And yet we have A A regime of trend atal violence, uh, which which targets them in a way that's just represented ble.

But am also didn't feeling sorry for anyone who's targeted for genocide. I also worry about the attitudes that make that possible and that make IT mostly unnoticed. And the core underlying attitude seems to be, some people aren't worth anything.

There are just objects that can be discarded. And I they got a good attitude at all they have for fairly human beings. Where did that come from?

Well um throughout human history um we've seen this be the norm rather than um the exception right. IT was not great for disabled people at all before a judy o Christian that they came on the scene in the west. And um with this idea that every single human being, uh in virtue of there being a member of the species homosapien and right to fellow human animal in a way of speaking, has exactly the same value because that human being bears the image of lightness ss have got in precisely the same way regardless of age, regardless of disability, regardless of burden, regardless of any accidental trait and they're very nature and the very nature who they are the face of um the image of a god is is present.

they have souls. We used to .

say people have souls, have souls um before that um I IT was just a matter of course to consider human beings in this way after that that we didn't always we didn't always live out as Martiny the king of the true means of our creed um and but we were on this trajectory, right we were trying to Better live out this principle of fundamental human equality.

As the declaration says, we hold these truth be self evident, that all of us are created equal by god, right? Try to live that out more consistently. I think it's fair to say and it's especially true in medicine, but it's to think it's true more broadly throughout the culture um as we've become post Christian, as we've recognised ed, at least again within our sort of fears of power, not necessary with the broader people. Um we've lost the ability to say that all human beings are EQ.

We've lost the basis for seeing now we do affirm the view like equality is maybe one of the most overuse buzz heard of her hand right um but I think of that almost like cut flowers um as an analogy you can cut the flower off of its roots and put IT in water and i'll stay beautiful for a little while right but everybody knows that once you cut the flower from its foundation, from its roots, it's it's dine, it's going to die these ideas, these foundational ideas, like fomentation human equality, have their roots in judeo Christian ethics. There's just absolutely no doubt about IT. And we have cut these ideas away from their roots.

And we still talk about him, right? We still even use them as important ideas. But the issue was the idea is dying.

The idea of fundamental is dying. Were no longer on the trajectory of trying to live this idea more consistently. We are now in, in, in a very different trojan ory, like people are losing their fundamental equality, right? We are thinking less about how to do this and more about, well, you know, is that really being human that matters at the end of the day? Maybe it's about autonomy, maybe it's about rationality, maybe it's about sf awareness, maybe it's about I Q I.

More and more people talking about I Q recently in ways that I find sort of disturbing, especially given what you said about ninety germany uh and so when you once you move away from fundamental human equality, you left with these trade access, I call them. And it's very clear that human beings don't have those in equal capacity, right? Or some human beings don't appear to have them at all.

right? I mean, IT doesn't. I think it's really obvious that I Q determines more than any other factor.

Your material about that and I also they get has a huge effect on your interactions with the criminal justice system. I think it's very important predict of your life. I don't think that has anything to do with your value so that this is my opinion.

Other words, I think I super important we talk about, okay, but god doesn't Carry your I Q is IT has nothing to do with whether not you have a soul. You have a soul because you're a human being. Your soul is identical in value to mind you may have an I Q twice, mind you may be three times his riches me doing matter that matters. But so just to be clear about my view on yeah.

yeah. and. If it's alright with you, I just like to name some of the categories of human beings that are on there.

As we have you know, we think about the directory before trying to live out this more consistently. We're now moving in a very different direction where people are flowing out of the circle protection for fundamental human equality. And so we've already talked about po natal human beings and neo natal human beings as classic examples of that.

In fact, it's so interesting to think about the early churches response to ancient greece and homes. A infanticide was found in the dedicate, which is a first century, uh, essentially caister, which gives us a really important inside into how they lived. And they they contrast the way of life with the way of death and say, Christians need to leave the way of life.

And the way of life, uh, is explicitly ly focused on a couple of things. One don't do abortion and infanticide. And they are talked about together basically because that's how the ancient began greece and all about for the don't know exactly one in the first century, but first century.

So it's very, very old. It's very, very old. It's called the dedicate. You can find online.

you can .

find the cuts um IT also interestingly, contrast the way of life with the way of death in a way that um uh we the uh those who are the rich and unjust judges of the poor are part of the way of death and the way of life uh is explicitly ly focused on the one of central messes of Chris which is uh to see my face he says in the poor right see the image, my image in the poor um but okay, so this goes all the way back to the very earliest parts of the church, right and and now we're not just seen this with regards the populations that so perfectly mere that newborn e children and prennent or human beings.

But now we're seeing IT with people with catastrophe brain injuries. So if I can just speak briefly about brain um maybe not so briefly because we have a two hour broadcast here and it's it's somewhat complicated but I need decided up a little bit so so I am I do a lot of work on secularity to italian pho sophy and i'm actually friends with Peter singer who's a very well known in secular utility arian physical. Ha, we don't agree on many, many things, but I think he's wrong in really interesting ways and he's he's seen any sense of seventy he's seen what IT has meant to reject a Christian um ethics of human life and he said very explicit for pro choice for abortion.

He also be protos for infancy he's right about that just to work the other way for for protecting babies, peck prenatal babies as well. But interestingly, he he says that really wasn't abortion. That um was the first moment where we um where we decided to say being human doesn't matter IT was brain. So a around the time of the sixties and seventies when a lot of a lot of stuff went down, involved a cultural shifts, um there was a confluences of two a inventions. The first was uh the ventilator, so a machine that helps people breathe and um the second was uh the transact, the transplant anting of vital organs from one um individual to another.

And once we got the capacity to transplant organs, as you might imagine, as we have today, huge waiting list developed for for for this uh resource and um and then the ventilator was invented in suddenly we had people with cat strophe c brain injuries on ventilators and um something called the harvard ad hawk harvard uh committee to determine um death or brain death came up with a proposal they said let's decide that all these individuals uh with catastrophic brain injuries on ventilators how is something called brain death and are dead and therefore we can take their organs and give them to others a who who need them and by the way, i'm not hating an organ donation. I'm an organ donor myself. I'm just trying to tell the story that both Peter think I agree on actually was a major turning point in in all of this.

So what the gene harvard medical school said at the time was um IT sounds like you just are redefining death in order to get more organs. We don't want really the document that says that's what we're doing. And so they change the they change the document, but it's still even with the editor documents very clear and this is historically well known that this is what happened.

And so a Peter singer and I and others who aware of this history says this is when we first set of living member of the species, homo sapiens, a fellow human being um did not count, was dead essentially they did not have the same moral status as others because guess what tucker um uh people in these uh in these uh so called brain dead states can just ate children. They can fight off infections if you cut into their body, they released a journal and their heart rate uh speeds up. There is even this case of uh only by the way, the just dating children case often happens.

Unfortunately in very tragic cases where a pregnant um woman uh gets into a car access or something has a catastrophic brain injury, her body is her herself. She's able to just a child despite being declared brain dead. One of my favorite all time had lines about this that show the confusion we have about this in the culture is from the ap, said a brain, a brain dead woman gives birth and dies so it's just like the full confusion on display in one very short headline.

Um but maybe you remember this case from a few years ago to hymie math um in california SHE was this african american girl who had surgery go really terrible for sleep apia had a catastrophic brain injury in the state of california, declared red her dead and and her very Christian also african american parents said, um she's not dead and a the data california said and her medical team yes said yes he is and by the way, according to her family's lawyer to his family's lawyer um to the chief of pediatrics s said I think was usf ancor hospital pounded his fist on the table inside she's dead. She's dead. What is that you don't understand? She's dead. And then a few days later, he got her first period. And they have managed to convince both the state, california and and her medical team to essentially low them to transfer to new jersey, where I live, which which happens to be the only stayed in the union that allow us religious freedom for people like jaya s family to say, I don't think this individual who just got her first period is dead and I want to to care of my daughter and .

other days don't allow that .

they don't I don't allow IT you what does that mean?

They don't allow .

IT IT would be as if um from there there in my view just got um deeply misguided view. They would say, well you know you can just say a corp is a lie, right? Like this is a dead individual.

This is a corpse. In fact, some of the medical ethics, the deans of medical ethics around the united states reacted to this case through daming k, saying, this is a corpse. There are animated in the corps. Who are these people? She's going to decompose.

They said, why did you make them so? And why? Why are they so? So many physicians, most physicians seem like they just love death. What is that?

I I don't know exactly. I think because I want to talk about vegetable.

I I want, but I just keep you five different times in one, I have an hour. You made reference to the views of doctors on these things, and each time I had the same question, which is, I would hope that the default desire for doctors would be to see people live. And yet I have seen in my own life, most doctors I know get off on death.

They love death. That is just my observation. Maybe you've got a different one but what is .

that I do think there is a strain within contemporary secularized medicine that um is so ideological that if there is something that pushes back against their very secular zed um whatever I don't know what to call IT whatever the opposite of poor life is.

perspective for death could .

be the opposite is anathema, right? And so why? Because there in this is that I I want to speak with two broader brush. But in many cases the ideology is far more important. Then they're always they took to protect and care for .

life but you would just think like, okay, so this girl they think she's dead, but then he has appears really not did why? Why would you pound your fist on the table and demand that other people think she's dead? Or why would you push parents to a board, a child with down cinema, special effort, both of which are so survivable.

And three, you you can thrive with both of those things. So why are they so vested? We must kill like they're not .

neutral on IT.

That's like what is that? Well.

I think there would be at least two sets of reasons in the case of, uh, brain death. The first one would be unique to brain. The other one would connect with what's called vegetative state. I think maybe offensively vegetative state, which is different, and I want to say more about that, amen. It's alright.

But with brain death, I think what's always in the background here is what the harvard brain death committee was concerned with organs, right? So if if we suddenly say that individuals to pedestrian hic brain injuries are not dead and we still have the dead donor rule that says you need to be dead in order to donate a non paired to vital organ like a heart, say, then the number of a of then the waiting list for organs just goes way through the roof right now. And this has actually brought up there have been um champions, secular champions of of attempts to to really call brain death what that is a kind of fiction.

Well originally that what is a fiction that was just um designed to uh to put us in a position to get Better organs and more organs um who when he gives talks, uh he routinely gets questions like shouldn't be talking about this. You know what's going to be the result of what you're talking about here? People are going to die because they're not going to get organs right that they need. They're na die on organ waiting less. And so don't talk about this because people will die.

Don't talk about vaccine juries because vaccines are too important.

It's a classic util italian uh, perspective on these things.

But if you find yourself lying or ignoring harm to individuals on behalf of some imagined greater good, then near this evil, I mean, not really see another plausible .

description of that. If one has a view that what's the bottom true about ethics and reality is maxims ing the greatest good for the greatest number. We can call IT evil.

I think in many cases, IT is. But that just, just, just follows logically. Why would we get bent out of shape about whether john c math is a person or not or has human dignity or not? What really matters that one of the day is that we maximize good outcomes from this situation.

That's not the tide litter. That's literally the attitude they were not ashamed of. They bragged about the road about extensively. We should not forgotten all of this. We remember all the lessons about poland.

And jo sv, well, he missed the basic lesson, which you is, you cannot treat people like objects or else you end up committing genocide. It's like super simple, right? sorry.

No, that well said. I think I think another angle into IT though, is this ideology different kind of video logical language, which is if we say that individuals who have catastrophic brain injuries but are clearly still functioning members of the special summer sapiens, just like you and I are though very seriously disabled um that has implications uh for human dignity that have apply consistently go to undermine very foundational views, including with a very to abortion right um and this is explicitly said so um let's talk if you if you don't .

mind about uh so called vegetative stage yeah OK if I could um you ve said three times that brain death is a category that was um kind of device is really almost like a marketing tool in order to increase the supply of organs um but what is brain death exactly when it's explained to lamon like me, it's their flat lining. We're doing we're measuring brain activity and there's none. Is that real?

yes. So um part of the problem here is there really isn't a good way to test for what's called whole brain death in part because and this was actually after the harvard um uh report came out, something called the uniform commission, which is a nonprofit group that has surprisingly a lot of power to propose um uh uniform language for states across the country um without federal lot sort of make sure they are basically on the same page with the grad legislation.

So won't be like one kind of brain death laws in california, a different kind in in new york. And so I think he was one hundred and eighty one early, early eighties. They proposed language that basically meet the recommendations of the harvard brain of commissioner d, said brain death, which means death of the whole brain, including the brain.

Time is death. And that's fine. You can say that as a thing. But then we have to find ways to determine that and there's .

to measure to see if it's true. true.

And um most of the ways is especially to determine whether there is brain stem activity in the very center of the brain um is just super, super difficult. There's there's a big debate right now in my world about whether the hypothenuse, which controls a lot of different things, but is the sort of tiny organ um or part of the interview of the um brains um um this all sorts of debates now about how precisely to test for whether the hypotheses is still alive and some people will say, well, who cares whether hypothesis is still alive but the people say, well, no.

Got to determine whether the whole brain is that or not and meanwhile, we got this individual gardings of what happening here who's fighting off infections, infections, maybe just in a child, right? Maybe reaching their first period. And so I I don't. So anyway.

dances to be possible if the brain was dead.

Well, this is an interesting question. This, I think the the push for organs, the connection to organs, really pushed us through to determine that people were dead, you had dead brains are too quickly. I think we just sort of said, well, that sounds right, especially in the developed west.

I think I think therefore, I am sort of inspired world that's focused on the head. I wonder if we don't too quickly just assume that these things are controlled by our brain. One of the interesting things I like to point out um I I think it's interesting.

I hope you you first think it's interesting um when the ancient egyptians with a fy body know with the brain they throw IT out, they thought, I cool the blood now what what would what would a culture have to be thinking about themselves, right? To think that the brain is something you're really not going to need in the afterlife and just cools the blood is or this thing that you don't really, you don't really need as opposed to us. You really sort of imagine ourselves, like, I am raised in this culture, I imagine myself inside my head here, all these thought experiments in my world.

Imagine like, what if you had your brain and a bad on mars, right? Would that be you right in in in a in that vat? Like if we could put IT in in a tub of nutritious and give IT electric shocks.

Um we talk about uh in this current a transfusion ism moment, what if we could like do this uh modeling of your brains information and uploaded to the cloud and then like downloaded into a robot t or something. These are questions that transients are really asking right now. Um very serious people are asking these questions.

But I think it's because we sort of just imagine ourselves as this kind of uh, creature that thinks of ourselves. Well, maybe we just are our brains. I I want to push back on that.

I want to say we are um in all bodies, right? We are bodies and that we were are we were who we were before we had our brains, right? Pinata ly, we were who we were before we had brains. And there is some evidence so IT still needs to explore red that especially Young people talker can uh have other parts of their body take over for the functions of the brains um in a kind of really interesting plasticity of the body. Um I think some people have speculated, I wait what so so it's no accident that a lot of these cases, these so called brain death cases are um children, right?

So there's spent some speculation, some of form speculation that says, well, you know what these children have um the ability to have other parts of their bodies take over for their brains when their brains are destroyed, perhaps their spinal cord perhaps some other way of thinking about this. The body, as you know, is an incredibly mysterious. Thing and um and by the way, we still have not found the place where consciousness exist in our brain.

Maybe you've heard about this for for now for decades we've been expLoring the brain. Where is the consciousness? Where is the conscious ness? Is that here, and this part of the brain is that here, it's nowhere, nobody can find any seat of consciousness in the brain.

To the point where some physics of mine, like Daniel dannette have said, you know what, maybe conscious ness is an illusion, because IT must be in the brain. The consciousness must be part of the brain. And and that that is such a revealing claim.

claim. I mean, the base of science is inquiry and taking your preconceptions and setting them aside and try to see things. So if I, if I know for a fact, my car keys are in the kitchen, I never going to find them in my bedroom. That's so why why would you start with that assumption? life?

I think I agree with your category. I think it's because we are so in especially in the developed west, focus on rationality, the company. I think therefore, I am called you to assume i'm a thinking thing that's not a Christian vision of the human person, which we are not thinking things.

We are in sold bodies, right? And we can have in sold living bodies without very seriously damaged brain, perhaps of fully dead brain. And what so interesting again about children is that looks like the spiral cord can maybe take over for some of what the brain did.

And we we know that we're cautious beans, right? That's that's a um it's just a brute fact about us and we also know that at least so far, after many decades of trying, we can't find uh consciousness in the brain anywhere. And so that's success to me anyway that that the conscious ness is a product of something else, right? It's not a product of the brain, most likely is probably a product of some they're actually some philosopher of mind, secular ones you say is probably the product of like our whole bodies politically considered in relationship with each other in our environment. I don't fully understand some of those argument, but the very least, I think we need to expand this idea that we're more than .

just supreme well and also at the very least, I think we need to approach medicine and science with renewed humility. Yes, if we don't even know where consciousness resides, self awareness as people, which is the hope, you know, that's that's the main that's what makes the brain different from this one accord, I would argue actually um or we thought made IT different, then we don't know squad. And why don't if I feel like your wiser when you can see that rather than bounding forward with the false pretense you're all knowing, like why don't we admit that IT helps to believe?

Why force doctors .

to admit that at gunpoint actually? Like how can you get a medical license if you wanted .

with that doctors shots fired.

No, no, i'm trying to I I think IT helps .

to have a context in which um there is a god right who is all knowing and who in whom ultimate truth resides and it's not from you. It's not up to us. It's not I don't know.

most of my life I haven't spent thinking about god. I do now. But I mean, most one if I didn't yeah but I don't know, just trying to be an honest with myself. IT was always pretty clear to me that I didn't really know anything and that nobody does. And if you if you don't know that, then you're dangerous yeah this .

is just a speculation. I I guess i'm just trying to especially now that I teach at the medical school and i've been in academia for now almost two decades, those kind of um humble um sort of um yeah humble approaches um are not rewarded in in these structures, right in these systems. What is rewarded is saying, i've got the answer right. I'm on my way to finding the answer. I've got this new piece of information about this. That's one of the reasons I think that so many theologians, at least in my world, have reacted negatively to this uh sort of publisher parish come up with new ideas constantly sort of a model of higher education because boy boy uh if we're truly uh exhibiting the virtue of humility in the way you suggest, we need to make far fewer claims about the kinds of things that are that we do um precisely because we need to be start with the virtue of humility .

first and so right and in a you know in a system that actually wanted to expand knowledge and perpetuate pass IT on, there will be much more reading and much less writing a though much more listening, much less talking and IT seems the opposite. That's absolutely .

true there a there's a tremendous amount of um pressure put on academics and in including those in academic medicine to just publish your us off right and just get paper after paper out there and we have as you know, a replication crisis now in part because of .

this explain for people don't don't follow what .

that is so um in part but not only because of the the the intense pressure on academics and especially academic medicine to advances one's career through publications a there's been a real um lack of humility and sort of sitting with data and books and studies um and an attempt to sort of just push things out and get your name out there and get your publications out there um and then when people come behind them and is actually more, more difficult, four people come behind them because there's not a lot of glory and either confirming what somebody he's already published or um there's some glory in finding that they were wrong about IT. But um not a lot of people spend a lot of time trying to confirm um replicate studies. But when they do, we now have found a replication crisis.

And a lot of these the replication is not just like a virtue. It's prerecorded for science. That's right. It's a basic sciences precept. If you're going to make a claim in order of for us to declare IT true IT .

has to be replicated. That's right. It's a deep and foundational problem that especially um in areas which are idio logically charged, let's say the replication crisis is particularly profound. So it's not just it's not just about um publisher parish get a ton of articles out there for you to advance your career. It's also to get the right kind of articles out there, the ones that say the right things that have the right conclusions about some of the issues have been discussing so far on the show, right these are politically charged things. And um in order to get to publish in the best journals um you probably need to have the corner count right answer as well.

IT seems like total corruption is .

there's corruption. I mean, there's no there's absolutely no doubt about that. I mean, I experiences this even in my own world of bioethics where you just sort of know what journals um you need to submit to if you have a particular sort of argument and a sort of conclusion, say, well know I could submit IT there but it's never going to be published there doesn't matter how good the argument that doesn't really matter um but that I ve done researcher or or have adequately investigated this and i'm making very tight arguments I have the wrong conclusion for that journal and see you submit to a different journal right and or are you don't suit at all or you submit to an online um uh journal or something that that that might actually .

get red by people just a minute te to .

twitter yeah I think that's that's increasingly where a lot of this is that twitter has actually been one of the places where we've been able to most clearly see the replication crisis, right?

I was have joking, but what do you mean? Well, I mean.

so many of these things before twitter, before social me to happen on the dawn. Alright, there would just be only the specialist sort of no like a so and so their article got retracted or like so and so followed behind them. I was unable to replicate their work or you know whatever.

Now as soon as that happens, happily, there's a place where you can go and see people saying, hey, look, this, this data was problems, this problem, this data was falling. There is public pressure, in fact, to then have the journal address that and say, well, maybe this, you know, we need to have a note here, or something like that address the problem. So that kind of transparency, which is only just a few years old now um I think we've yet to see the result of that.

So i'm starting back to the topic that you are explaining before I once again so really side track the conversation um which was brain death in a persistent vegetative state, right? So when we left, you are explaining I think that there is no way or university agreed upon way to measure whether not a brain is dead. We're I think that's right.

We're trying to get waves, for instance, to do a Better job testing for hypothesis function for instance and brains then function. But but actually one of the difficulties that is pushing us um in ways that I find pretty disturbing about declaring somebody brain that is a lot of people are out of thrown out around and say it's actually pretty arbitrary. How we test like who cares is whether we can test for hy function of the hypotheses who cares actually how much of the brain is they're not the person they ever will be again or something like this.

So there is um there is something in most people that kind of agrees with that though they don't want the themselves or their loved ones living on a ventilator. Then I think that's fair to say that's right.

Uh and getting back to one of our earlier discussions, um it's perfectly tly legitimate to take somebody off eventually later as long as one is not aiming at their own death, right, as long as a choice about how to live. A somebody says to me and you know my parents, a friend, spouse, listen charly, I I would not want to be an events latter. So can you make sure are not leaving an eventide atr?

It's not that I want to die in any particular I just don't want to live of my life that um that's again to use the more fancy language that's foreseeing but not intending one's death but making a choice about how to live rather than a try to die and we do that all the time right even the food we eat is is your show is hopefully pointed out is maybe a choice I live can for see if we you eat our behavior exercise a certain way. We have certain outcomes, right? It's a choice about how to live, not a choice about um how to die.

So that's a different from sane quite different from saying um because you're on a ventilator and you don't have the records of brain activity, you're dead, right? You're dead. He has quite different. And so we can perfectly say, and we should say, and let me make this clear, if I haven't already, we don't need to keep uh, people alive indefinitely. In fact, this is not at all a Christian.

Just look up at Christ on the cross it's pretty obvious ous you don't need to do everything to save your life I have for imitating crist the early uh the churches matters um also give a great great example of this. You can be a night IT can be very clear example of biology in fact, to just pursue life extended life um so so I hope I am making a clear that that's not what i'm saying, that we have to do everything. We should not do everything. We don't make a lot, lot of life at the same time, we don't tell our self silly bedtime stories about individuals who just say children or get their first period being done.

Do everyone democrats used to refer to abortion is something that should be safe, legal and rare? Or we've changed their view on that. IT went from a right to a sacrament.

And commonly, Harris is celebrating IT at full volume, choose the first, first present to visit an abortion mill, and then the democratic national convention offered portions on demand based right outside the convention, all as a publication, first things reported. Tim walls, who's running with Harris, supports the right to kill babies after birth to in fantastic. And that's true despite what the fact checkers may tell you.

And it's also evil. The media calling this the abortion election. You shouldn't sit by without registering your position on IT. This isn't the pro choice movement.

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the ones done. Yeah, I think we should agree with everything you said. Um I would never want to be an event latter.

I mean, fifty five my kids are going you know with no reason to want to prove long life to that extent at all. And I think it's degrading and I would hate IT. So i'm definitely they do not read side of this argument and that we are the ethiopians. Me, if that's immoral.

no, you are. We are.

But I do think we should really care about whether a person is a live or dead, like I do think we should freed about these questions because every life has in transit value. And again, if you treat people like objects, you're gone to wind up murdering millions of them because we've seen that they can again. So to the question of organ donation and quote, harvesting organs, repulsive phrase, but I think is still used right harvesting yeah um and this propulsive because IT treats people .

like just like a .

medium in which this thing grows this heart, liver, kiddy I don't like that at all but IT raises the question our people from whom organs are, quote, harvested so alive.

I think these are deep questions we need to ask tucker and i'm giving a talk at the seminar ary where I teach next week, which is um essentially should catholic be be organ downs precisely in light of these questions? Again, i'm in an organ donor. I have people in my life who are walking around right now because of organ donation is an incredibly important thing but again, we should not be telling ourselves false stories about who is alive and who is dead um just because we want more organs that .

was the foundational for harvesting oran, taking organs from living people.

If brain death is not death, then that's defining what we're doing.

Do you think we're doing that?

Yeah OK.

that's kind of a heavy.

It's really heavy. It's really heavy.

I'm sure you going to be yelled that for saying that because like how dare you get the way of progress but .

and let me say that for a third time I am an organ donor. I support organ donation yes um I also support telling truth about whether people are lior IT and and to get back to the original reason for bringing this up, Peter singer and I both agree that I was this foundational place where we said and obviously live in human being no longer counts as a legal person and therefore we can take the organs that was the foundational shift where we where we moved away from fundamental human equality and we moved IT to something else, and then we slit into persist in vegetative state. You probably remember the tree chivo case very well.

Terry shambo, for your listeners who aren't ware, was A A woman who also undergo undergoing a catastrophic a brain injury due to the eating I recall and her husband and her family um disagreed about what should be done to be clear, persistent, so called vegetative state no person, no human beings of vegetable. But that's just sort of the language we use um or have used. It's changing now.

But uh, he did not have a brain death. He was. He had other parts. A large part of her brain had been fundamentally compromised, but he had sleep and wake cycles and he responded. There's an amazing video online you can watch for her responding to music.

Somebody plays music SHE just like sort of leaning over and sort of makes an annoying that sort of almost smiles. Um people who were there, like her parents said they responded to her here's a huge fight. You remember that sort of engulf nation and in the early part of the this millennium early odds anyway um it's interesting. Her her um I think the ferrous husband won that battle and they uh they uh started her and dehydrated her to death um after declaring essentially that he was no longer there.

In fact, if you if you if anybody would chAllenge me on this, I chAllenge them to look at the gravestone that um her husband created for her IT says that um on the date of her cat strophe c brain injury that he departed this earth there was one hundred and ninety he uses the phrase the part of this earth and then in the I think was two thousand three when they um dehydrated her to death um IT says he was at peace and so when I give talks on this topic I often start with that um gravestone as a really indicative um uh important um insight into what we are doing here. What we are saying is this individual has departed this earth as a person and yet can leave behind somehow a body that is responding to music has sleep, wake cycles, all the things now even sense that time talker, maybe you are. You aren't aware of this.

There has been research ching to people who been launched into this, a category of vegetative state. Um je fans who's a secular um BIOS is a great book called rights come to mind if listeners to explore IT. We now know that a significant percentage of people in a vegetable so called vegetarians state are actually conscious.

They've done scans of their brains, f mi scans and they asked them, yes, no questions with yet to be. Imagine your plane tennis and and no being uh read a book in your room and they answer by by what parts of their brain light up correctly. They answer these yes no questions correctly.

We've further learned that with the right kind of therapist ah gel phin points out in this book, you can actually prove that more and more either they weren't conscious before or um and then they become concious because of the therapy or they were conscious the whole time and the therapies end up showing that that they that they give them opportunity to the in fact, he tells us an amazing story of this neology st. He was working on a patient and suddenly he realized he was blinking and trying to communicate with her through her blinking. Uh, just an ordinary story. But yeah, so many people have this idea that uh that uh Terry travel's husband have, which is like people who are in a vegetative state, have departed this earth despite this human body. That is very clearly here I see that is the sort of next step from brain up to say, well, that's why some people aren't too concerned about whether the hypothesis is really functioning.

not because who cares, cern, that i'm concerned about the lack of concern. I mean, know these are all emotional subjects of people, particularly the end of lifetime. Ff, because everyone by middle aged has seen IT with a loved one, and it's so sad. And you imagine yourself in that position. You think that I don't want this for myself I think I understand all of that.

I'm judging anybody but I but the core idea is so important that all of us have identical moral value um because without IT society becomes really dark and evil not just the way we treat the week in hospice or in you know in your little care, but in the way that we treat like everybody, the way our economy is structured. So when I was a kid, I group in a rich world, rich people had a sense of the blessed believes, like we're fortunate that was where people used, but there are good people who are not fortunate. And we should feel at the very least bad about that.

We're not god because we're rich. Like that was A, I know, I know I was there that was a prevalent feeling that is totally absent. You think glory think thinks that like poor people as good as him now he's like a disgusting money person who thinks he's Better than poor people and they all think that I sound just Larry, think so.

He's obviously genuinely repulsive, but they're all that way and that's a big changes. If not, are my imagining this? Well.

this gets back for me anyway, back to the dedicate, right? Because when they contrast the way of life with the way of death, they weren't just interested in, what you might call today, classical biotic ic portion of ancient. They were interested in the, what you just described.

either the rest of life from birth till death, like there's a lot .

of years in there. The rich and unjust, the judges of the poor were named explicit, the cause part, the way of death per the way of death and all the early church father's talker thought about abandon the poor as a kin to indirect homicide right? And you own the poor um from your substance actually and you put your cell ation in peril.

If you don't give from your substance work as you they deserve IT. It's owed them as a matter of natural right? If you have too much, you oh IT to them. And, uh, this isn't something that made up, becomes right out of sacred scripture. Jesus couldn't be more clear about this.

That culture was still alive when I was a kid, like, I remember that very well. Remember people saying that, and remember them acting like IT was true. And these are not even faial Christians that I grow brand at all. But there was this feeling, you had a moral application to help people beneath you, not to scope with them, not to try and put their presidential canada in prison, but to listen to them and help them. It's all gone.

It's gone. I may just get there are a back in the day and in I think IT was a meneval practice. Um rich people would routinely ask um uh invite the the poor beggars outside the cathedral to pray for their loved ones at their funeral because they would think these people Better bear the face of cries in a special way.

I Better get well, that's taken directly, of course, from australia. The new testable yeah yeah .

and and that's what I i've love so much about um this kind of shift that we've seen. Um I don't know if it's on the right or that even the way to describe IT today, you've been an important leader I think in the shift for for conservatives for people are more traditional to say we don't need to choose actually between know more traditional pro life um ideas and human dignity and focusing on um giving the poor what they are old, giving the most vulnerable um social classes what they are old.

In fact, not only do we not have to choose between them, it's part of the same ethic is part of the same vision, it's part of the same seen individuals as not mere things to be discarded, but as fellow image barriers, exactly the same as I am in value totally and and again to go back to um the debate uh uh the the the vice presidential candidates had recently IT was so hardening for me to hear jd events talk about both to say like yeah we got some chAllenges right now with prenatal justice and we have to we have to return trust but we don't need to choose between trying to protect babies in utero and renewal I now and supporting um very uh poor women and families a who feel pushed often into context where. They um have a desperate situation in front of them and they don't know what else to do. And so to have someone like him be so public about saying we're going to do both of these things together, we're going to pursue prenatal justice and we're going to pursue economic justice for women and families who are in these difficult circumstances.

What a beautiful thing. If that if that takes fire if that takes um if that takes hold um I am just so excited about what that could mean because this is something I haven't really emphasize. I want to make sure I emphasize this tucker in so many of these contacts that we've been discussing this the push away from fundamental human equality has been um in part a uh uh a question of resources, a question of consumerism, a question of allocation of of resources so again, with brain death, what I pushed IT organs, right?

So many people thought, Terry chivo, why? How would we put resources into caring for? Why would anybody put joe fin says, hey, i'm trying to tell people you can help people in these states and we can actually bring them back and and let's get on the horn here. Let's figure out how to do this. And he's had crickets from his .

colleagues because we've got worse to fund.

get lots of things .

that people have a lot of wars. And I have to say that the last and I woke off my show box, but that is the last big effect of this attitude change, is the carelessness that you see displayed everywhere on the right a lot, and university in the left now about the killing of other people.

So like, I don't know if you're in a war with somebody that suggest maybe you have to kill people, but you should never gloat over IT and you should never be happy or cavalier about the deaths, particularly of a huge civilian populations of million people on iraq. And no one has obviously, no one is going to prison. Lots of people sugar a person for, and no one ever will.

But we should we say, that's really bad. A million human beings, or you know what's going on? The middle is now, I mean, half the right, the whole daily wire every day there is so excited about if you were getting killed and it's there's not one person stands up and says, look, you know, i'm not for this, for that group.

These people were terrible. I'll fine. I get all that.

I'm not even contesting IT. But if civilians get killed, non commands can kill. We should feel bad about that, I don't understand. And if we don't feel bad about that, that suggests a darkness that's really scary, uh, and is no surprise that the same people were throw when giant bombs drop on a carbon blocks.

Those people have, I think, really dark attitudes about americans who say, dive, final odds are, find their towns invaded by know people who shouldn't be here. Whatever victims are grounded. They don't care because they don't care about other people. Actually, that's the consists. The theme that connects those .

two IT connects all of this oh.

I couldn't i'm thinking of a couple leaders on the so called right they're not conservative in any sense that I recognize at all um who were like this and I just I just I think to myself I keep live me in the same category with these people. I have nothing in common with them. I'm never going to celebrate someone's death ever and why would you and it's wrong sorry.

And what a beauty I oh yeah and by the way, this is a again, I hate to be becoming back to this, but maybe will pull memorall thyl logan card one more time. This is just jesus and the gospel and the early church again, right? This is anti war.

Uh, sorts into powder shares. Turn the other cheek. Love your enemies. Augustine thought I was so important to love your enemies that he, he was not a passive ve, but he said, if you're going to kill your enemies, you ve got to do out of a love for your animals.

Well, I agree with that. Or at least this should be accompanying by guilt. shame.

Yeah, i've done all kinds of bad things in my life. I should do more, unfortunately. But my only defence would be I I think I felt guilt and shame. Probably not. I know you should feel bad, and I even i'm probably make myself super unpopular for saying this, but I remember when, or some have been long got shot to death and I hated the only killed a friend of mine actually um i'm not for something in ladon but I thought, you know we should just have a rapp when someone dies we should have reference for death itself um I mean, we can be happy that someone who is attacking us is gone and the threat is gone. I think as we're celebrating, but we should never feel glee watching a human soul be extinguished.

I I just don't I think that's a really ugly habit ticket into and IT diminishes us and turns us in to monsters IT turns us into a some of a lot tight people. And I didn't have the balls to say this at the time, but I remember thinking i'm not into celebrating some guy and on our man getting shot the face. I don't care if it's so something a lot of the guy like least.

but that's precisely okay.

I probably not even said that, but I felt that at the time sounds like you're .

talking about trying to find a way to love your enemy.

Well, I don't think the country can. I mean, could there really be a truly Christian country that loved its enemies? Maybe get invaded the first day? I don't know on a statement worthy ologies.

So what I have to make this, but I just think at the level of the individual, the human being, we should be on guard for the natural impulse to treat other people as objects and to worship death. I just think it's important not to worship death. I just, I don't know.

I mean, all of this haven't in ourselves. How many videos have I seen on the internet of someone, you know, a robber, getting shot to death at a seven eleven and I like you go shoot rob like I get IT. I understand that impulse. It's very human, but it's ugly and we should fight against IT.

That's right. That's right. And and again, what a beautiful image of human dignity and image of resisting a throw away culture that would combine all these things together to see them.

And notice dicon, deists, or even strange. But of course you would be for anti war. Of course you would be for justice for in published in middle class populations who are under siege. Of course you would be, uh, for this disability rights, of course you would be anti abortion, of course you would be anti and fantasize, and of course you would be anti Ethane sia physical.

It's all part of the same vision thrown all people, putting some super depressing facility. I don't know the whole thing. I don't think there's are any surprise when I look at how little our leaders care about americans that you just don't care the step over the bodies of drug adders on the way to go vote to fund the ukraine war.

Like those two things, those two facts are connected. No, I think if you don't care about people, you will mistreat them. In the last category you should have ruling over you is people who don't care about other people like that. Oh, man, they keep them away from power, right?

Can I can I say one thing about older people here in light of this, especially those who are I mean, we're in the midst. We're in the very early stages of a dementia crisis, as you know.

And what is that can you be more sure?

So um so .

we already don't .

care properly for reasons you just suggested. For people with um moderate in later stage, the essentially we um shuffle them off into so called care homes um and and really what the new york times that is very interesting expose about how many of them are treated and essentially many of them are hypersensitive because they are difficult to take care of in some context.

Yeah um are given anti syria drugs, not because I have any psychosis but is essentially a way of keep ing them more in part because we don't put enough resources into caring for them and I don't know about you talk about when I talk to immigrants, but how we treat our elderly and those um who have dementia. They are shocked, they are shocked that we put them away in the way that we do. We literally throw them away into a into a room until they die.

And where this is what we're doing now in the next twenty years, unless the mean civilians get what they want in terms treating type three diabetes with the the number of people with uh, later stage of meta is going to double in thirty years. Is gona triple in thirty years? Docker, what are we going to do with three times a number of people with the mention? Are we going to idiotically care for them? Are we going to find new ways to help them or are we gonna launch towards physician ists to killing as we're .

going to kill we're onna kill them. We're going to do what canada doing. That's right.

And so that's the next um in a book I wrote um called losing our dignity how secularize medicine is undermining fundamental human equality I finish the last three chapters by saying um this is the next shoot to drop in in our loss of fundamental equality we're going to end up sane that individuals who've lost the rationality and self awareness at the end of life no longer counters person and just as we said about just as we say about prennent o and neonatal children as we say about that was in a so called vegetative stage, just as we say about those who in a so called brain dud state, uh canada is already saying about individuals at the end of life with with later stage dementia and we're going unless we can have a recovery of uh the concept of fundamental human equality this I hope you don't mind me asking you this question.

The only hope I really have that we don't have demetra crisis along lines, we suggest as if there is a kind of revival, the kind of recovery of the kinds of um the vision of human dignity, fundamental equality that we've been talking about here. Um you've spent the last uh month or so um traveling around the country. I've heard you say you've been I don't know the putting words you're mouth here but rejuvenated or you have some sort of really positive experience as a result to this.

Do you think you know i'm isolated in academia and a lot ways. Do you think we can have a kind of revival in this country that could recapture a vision of human Denny that would cause us to say, yes, grandpa, dad, my neighbor, he doesn't know his name. He doesn't know his wife's name.

But he matters just the same as anyone else. And we are going to rearrange our lives to care for him in his final journey on this earth. Or do you think that the ship has sailed like we've just justice? The cut flowers are dying. There's no way to reattach them to the roots, and we just have to find find a way to work through IT somehow.

I mean that one of the reasons that immigrants can't believe how we treat our elderly is because they haven't tech family and we don't, right? So it's pretty hard um when you have a lot of you have a lot of elderly without any family actually way more than any other time in our history. This is just one among countless issues that every person deals with every single day that turn on how we see each other。

Do we see other human beings as fellow human beings, as people with souls whose lives inherently matter, whether we like them or the life they're living or not? It's kind of not up to us. How do we see ourselves?

Do we understand ourselves, as you know, is subject to a grade authority, not a government authority, but authority above that? Do we see yourselves as god? I mean, they are all like basic questions.

And I and I think the way that we understand all of these things depends on our core understanding of who we are and you know how much power we have. Um like do you think you do you really believe you have the right to kill somebody, accept himself to fence? I know.

Where do we get that idea when I got? Is that part? I would just say this. Here's what I believe is happening. I think the last eighty years really since we dropped um that second bomb in arakaki have been an anomaly in human history and I think because of these profound technological very rapid technological advances, people have lost context and lost perspective on themselves and I think um they think they're god and the result has been a pretty holo culture just based on buying crap in central pleasure.

And I don't think that no, mike is buying crap personal pleasure i've engaged in both are quite, but I don't think in the end they satisfy right? He is like eating snickers. Para trip done a lot of and they just don't fill up.

And I do think that there's A A recognition of that among almost every single person I know. And the result is, as you know, a spiritual yearning that's becoming explicit. And what that becomes, I have no idea, terrible predictions. But IT is a kind of revival under way. There is no question about that right now, and that will change people's attitude.

So you're not going to one of the things we've learned from covering politics for, you know, more than thirty years is that we're coming at the story at the very end, like if there's a real debate over a law, then that means that or even if you get a law, attitudes have changed on the ground like fundamentally. And you know, I I think people's attitudes are changing back. I do think and with the rise of A I and trans humanism and phenomenon that that really designed to degrade and eliminate people and make them redundant, irrelevant, that is the point of A I and humanism to kind of liberate people .

the body yeah .

the body and the mind actually both um I think people can feel that scares the crap out of them and they're reacting against that. Thank Kevin. And I know, of course it's not too late.

I mean, A I and transfusion ism will you a thousand or ten thousand years ago from now will seem like the absurd jokes they are. I mean, A I is not going to extinguish h people forever. IT may extinguish ninety nine percent of them, but people will live on.

And the mark A I, you know, in future generations and transfusion ism will just be like phonology or some other stupid called that we make fun of slavery, you know someone will look back on anything that people really do that. Um do you don't mean it's third? It's like it's only for creepy billionaire in the tech world.

Think that's a good idea. Of course, they're being controlled by spiritual forces, by demons. That's so obvious to me, but they're not going to win, are you, joe? They're not going to win.

Um they may win short term, but they're not going to win long term anyway. Yeah no, I think there's massive change in people's uh like deepest feelings about the world right now. And I think it's for the collar revival.

It's my sense to and um in part because i've listened to some of the people you ve interviewed and and talk with over the last you know a few weeks and and i've have looked at some of the data which suggests that um there is actually Young men are the ones we didn't to return to church. Eighteen to twenty nine year olds are leading uh return to church in fact, that more how .

much can you eat? How many rain and people can you sleep with?

It's not that fun how much time you spend on your phone, how much you watch, uh, it's it's a deep and and they have a very strong sense too, maybe even Better than you and I have about IT being foisted on them. They just grew up in a culture that was that had these structures already in place. And if interestingly, when um so my colleagues do things like teach a class that would involve a technology fast, for instance, like those classes are totally full and like people want and people want to get out of IT, they want excuse to get out of. They are excuse to get out of IT IT.

I just been amazed, you know, given how many addictions i've beaten in my life, you know, things I never thought I would stop doing, like smoking, especially mazing ly. I quit at the age of forty five or drinking, you know, no problem. I quit IT, no problem.

I never would go back to other one of those things. Pretty hard to get off bad food and your phone, like I just kept. I'll just say, for my own experience, something pretty good at beating addiction. Hard to get off your phone, hard to stop eating with like those are very addictive. Both of those things.

And we've got as you've talked about on your show a few times now, we've got the best um scientists and including social scientists and chemists and others who are working very hard to make sure that the case right because that makes a lot of people a lot of money.

Yeah.

I sort of missed .

the porn thing and as I got, I think, group with that and you know I was my phones totally monitored. So like even if I was in the, I would have the point h not but my son, is that like the whole countries addicted? The point I don't know too much about IT .

I an traditionary thing. I mean, we basically have a pornified culture. Are the kind of thing is that you and I grew up with this sort of od you say, well, that's how important star dresses these these are attitudes that um they come from porn this thing that out there that separate from the rest of the culture is now pretty well accepted that the culture itself has been unified. So the logic of porn is now the logic of the culture more broadly in the how most Young people today understand what sucks is and what is for um this is why I don't know you ve seen uh in recent I think it's been last couple years has been phenomenon more and more women report being choked during sex right this is a phenomenon that's just come up almost directly because, uh Young men and boys see this uh on .

their phones and on their T V. Yeah I I don't know again, fifty five um i'll be gone soon i've deal any this but since you brought up something that forbidden and naught all just say for whatever it's worth, probably nothing but i've heard a lot about this from you know Younger people I come into contact with and IT sounds like that that's driven one hundred percent by women just just being honest from every report I I mean, I was so shocked the first time I heard that since I don't really see a connection between violence and sex I never have it's just deeply unappealing to me um maybe I am not feeling too much here but but I mean that you know we all preferences i've never really understood that violence really know this is not not hot but anyway, here's the point i've talked to like more than three Young men who were like, go yeah and this is like a concern request that i'm not that into from women O I don't know.

I heard that so much that I think it's really interesting. What is that? I don't know what that's bad.

I don't know what that's about, but he does show that the impact on how is not just on men, right? We used to think that porn was mostly consumed and still, as I think the number of, say, mostly by men and boys. But with that, I think IT really strongly indicates is that women .

and girls are also I I don't know, i'm really interested in how people live just because i'm a curious person. So i've like I was ask questions about all sorts stuff with people, probably too .

many questions. But but you know who has the most sex and the best sex all?

And I know that is pretty very project product because I I for reproduction you know yeah um IT seems like people are not having sex no or not. I would joke with my students and say.

you know, you guys claim to be these wild people and you look at my generation, older generation is food studies or whatever. That's not what the number say no, that's not all numbers at all. Um and so it's interesting to think about what that is. That doesn't seem to be a kind of I mean, it's not clear, I think, if if there is a revival underway and if Young men are returning to church and significant ways, maybe he has something to do with that, but could also be just, again, the ubiquity of senior .

rn playing video games. Well IT my strong, overwhelming sense that the distrust between sexes to cleaning Younger people is kind of the defining fact, like they don't trust each other and they don't. They couldn't have a lot of trouble getting along.

I don't know, I don't want this to turn, is like a long catalogue of all of our social problems. But IT, I guess what all i'm saying is, in response to your original question, I think things are coming to ahead where whatever we're doing is just not working through at all. And that's become really obvious at every level.

At the at the personal level mean women are having a lot of trouble understanding each other, getting married, having children, buying a home, finding a job that sustains all of that is a basic in a class life that's like beyond people's region. And looming above us is the constant threat of a iolaus by A I or war. Things were created by our lunch.

Leaders like actual lunatics run the country. You hate us and hate humanity, but but everyone feels that anxiety if, like, holy shit, any minute this could all end. And that's a weird environment.

Like, I groped her in the cold war, and I was on my honeymoon when IT ended. So that's all old. I am.

And I never felt I was sort of aware, you know you I never really felt like any second we could die in a nuclear conflagration. Now I definitely feel that way, don't you? And we have .

obviously something that didn't exist back then, uh, our addiction to our phones in our social media, which is constantly calibrated to make us feel anxious, depressed. And when that works, and IT totally works, I get we got the best social scientists in the world working for these companies. IT would be strange if we were we stage if we were.

how long after you wake up to you.

jack your phone? Oh my gosh. I D it's okay.

I ve been to.

I love with you. No I my phone is is my ARM clock so yeah so looks for so many people um um so immediately so I I my my phone wakes me up and then my phone is in my hand so I see the notifications and my phone and I want to see what's going on in the news that day or somebody's .

texted right .

when you like .

up oh so how bad for your spirit .

is that horrific?

The how many mornings have been reacted? You're speaking for everyone right now, not be .

also about, but I definitely speaking for of other people.

But how many mornings have you sort of woken up and there's you know you're bride next to you and maybe a dog or too and you're sort of happy and subway streaming in and you pick up your phone and you think a man, western civilization is over.

I mean, we just spent on our talking about infantes. So like know the kids of things I think about almost all day long are horrific things, right? And my algorithm knows that. So I get, send these things.

People also send these things because they know i'm interested, right? So how did you see what so and so hospital is doing now? And that this, that the other so yeah I mean it's it's something that um I thought about and many of us i'm sure I thought about um for a long time now is how do we uh how can I do my job? How can I be aware of the things I need to be aware of um and yet have A A much healthier and of people written books and i've read the books that i've i've talked without people.

My wife and I have talked about this at some length how we can negotiate these things in our life because she's not as bad as I am but if she's involved in in this lifestyle as well. Um but but again, the the companies that make shit tons of money from the staff have hired the best social scientists in the world uh to make sure that we that we that we're onna try to do the best job to make us fail in in these opportunities. And I ve tried mutio times we even have this thing that haven't used yet. We bought it's partly this box you can sort to put your phone into and like you have to have a specific combination um to open and and sitting there in our kitchen or life because we haven't used IT but it's there is a reminder like we probably should be using this thing um but yeah I used to feel .

that way about drinking you know sunday morning I think i've just i've got to stop this. This is just too bad and you know, ultimately I did but and I always knew I would like you can't beat that hung over and I keep doing that, but I suspect you'll never get .

rid of this. So how do we live with IT? Like what is the what is the good way that we live with those things? It's very it's it's difficult for me to imagine.

I've thought about this. I've obsess Frankly over this question. And and and I think we need I think one of the solution is to have a community of people right around you that can hold you accountable for this. And so much of what happens here IT seems to me anyways um we lead isolated lives unlike the lives we used to lead, both as a species and sort of as a culture not that long ago where there could be people that would hold you accountable to things like I at least would of course make my kids leave their phones away from the dinner table, for instance. That's one small thing you can do um but now I find myself at the dinner table a pulling IT out right and say, well, we're a desert I guess I can sort of check and see what's going on course.

Or in a restaurant, people leave IT on the table like they used to leave a pakistani. They leave the phone. I prefer the cigarettes less harmful.

and there's a strong case for that.

Oh my god, marbles compared to the iphone. Bring back the marbles. Are you joking? yes. Um see you live to sixty five so you know what I mean. Okay, so I want to get back speaking of holding people accountable.

So doctors have a unique power in the their at the beginning and the end of life, and they have the power to kill. And it's not regulated at all, I ve noticed. And so really, we'll all dependent on the attitudes of physicians to stay life like we need them to be pro life, not simply against abortion, but in favor of life is a default position or else were screwed.

And yet, so many of them I have, in my personal experience, are veux tly prodest. And i'm not saying all, but most doctors I have known or strongly prodest. So what would you do about that?

Well, we are living through an epic change right now in our culture of, uh, a change with regard to our technology, a change with regard to our politics, a change perhaps with regard to this religious survival that may be coming. Um we currently have A A medical culture which is dominated by secularism, by a uh hostility to the to the vision of human dignity and inequality that we've been articulating so far.

Could that change? I think the answer is yes. IT could also change um in a very similar way to the way that um Younger people more generally are changing. So Young doctors, Young nurses, Young whoever will be Carrying for us. I think there's important case we made actually that maybe health care needs like a different kind of category to care for people that doesn't exist just in the clinic with a bed somewhere, but is a broader sort of understanding of people more broadly outside of just caring for them in their sickness, but also in their healthcare in the in between stage before they need to go hospital and get checked out.

Clinton and maybe that sort of thing is is coming, I hope IT is um but if we can recover and IT by the way I was in the first hospital was uh was of course a Christian hospital right like this was invented in middle ages. Um nurses we are talking about at um at breakfast uh the all the original nurses were cathode women religious um they taught now you get everything that you knew um um they're still a really strong proliferation of religious um hospitals, religious uh health organizations, health systems. Many which are catholic, one in seven dies in the united states, is actually at a catholic facility.

Um there are ways to recover this image of human dignity and replace the one that's in there now. And especially if then if we have this broader religious revival on our way that you're talking about, can we recover this vision of human dignity that we've been articulated? I think the answer is yes, but we're going to need to.

And this is very much connected again to the show you did with the mean simples, about how what is the god that is actually governing healthy care? Is that the god of mamen? Is that the god of consumerism? Is that the god of efficiency? Or is that something else right? Is, is a, is a center of ultimate concern, god, that is non violent, that is about fundamental equality, that is about the most vulnerability, is about not using individuals as mira means to another end for profit, efficiency and consumerism.

Um, there are enough people out there. There are enough people out there, good people, uh, to be a form of resistance to that. I'm biased. The methodic malti a logan, I teached a cathos medical school again, I teach her a summoner as well.

I think one place to start would be institutions of the catholic church to say we are going to rebuild these institutions in ways that resist the kinds of things that um the kinds of things that happen when we put mamen and consumerism and efficiency the center of what we do um and and we are well primed to do to do something like that again, one in seven bed is a massive uh opportunity and IT doesn't need to be limited to catholic institutions. There are plenty of non catholic institutions as well. Um but at least that's where I put my hope that's what I say.

We can have a real you Christian in hospital center and just say, you know that we're not in the business of killing or the business of healing. Well, not going to do any killing here, the three. But could you do that? There's no hospital like that, that i'm aware of. Oh yeah.

there's really no reason why you couldn't do IT. I mean, in fact, this is what catholic hospital say. We have ethical and religious directives, which we say we are going to do these things and there's no abortion, is no hospital, is no abortion, there's no utan ia. Now i'm not going to say that there are hospitals and systems that try to find their way around these things they do, but it's at least in principle something that um is forbidden and um and it's not to know it's a broader yes right it's it's a yes to a particular vision of human body that requires knows but we have four decades now in the united states had a really powerful um uh uh attempt to carve out this space for ourselves through religious freedom to say, yeah I know you guys your four portion yeah I know you guys doing this thing we are not going to do that in these hospice and by the way um we can no longer call this a cala hospital. If you're going to forces do that, we will shut ourselves down.

In fact, if you tell us we need to do this and so far we've had pretty good success, Frankly and um in especially from the supreme court in telling us that yes, you're free as catholic hospitals and other institutions to not do abortions, to not do a physician system to society. Even contraction, even something like that uh catha hospital s don't don't prescribe contraction in principle shouldn't um and so if we there is no reason again that needs to be limited to catholic hospice again. IT was the I dimension this that you know who are. Who carved out the religious freeing exemption for brain death and new jersey orthodox juice so IT was orthodox use he said um yeah our guys who have brain that and not dead ah and you're not to force us um to call them dead and we're going to care about religious freedom exemption for ourselves here in new jersey um so again, IT doesn't need to be limited to even Christianity at all. Plenty of uh religious folks and even not religious folks can can, can imagine how this might work apart.

I agree completely know people who think there's an authority higher than themselves have the humility is the foundation of wisdom and good decision making and people who think they're god, you know, always wind up going the way off the rails.

I think I think that's right and and is not an accident right again that historically, IT was jews, IT was Christians and even muslims to a certain extent who are very much connected in the early stages to to both Christian dude ism who pushed back on abortion and fancy the ancient world for .

the reasons that we've already talked about. So is there anybody providing ethical guidance to the scientists funded by us? Tax dollars were tampering with the building box of life doing Frankenstein like experiments, one of which resulted in cover um in order not to save lives but to feel like god because there's an awful lot of that gene engineering in the rest of IT is either any ethical guidelines to that at all?

There are medical ethicists who work in those spaces. Most of them, if I can just speak Frankly, uh, have been compromised with regard to the kinds of stuff we've been talking about so far. So most of them would either be a neutral or have no connection to the kinds of a visions .

of human dials.

Well, there certainly emphasis you and I would recognize being good ethics in fact might call .

them bad ethics um or propaganda for murder I I mean I don't know i'm sure that not he said that this is too I mean that doesn't mean and I think in the point if you kill detrick bon off i'm sorry you don't have any working ethics and .

staff yeah the the largest the largest conference in bio thus s the united states is something called the a sb. H the american is society for biotics and humanity conference and I stop going a few years ago because I realized that um the only place that my voice was really welcomed there was in the Christian ethics interest group that met in the evenings. The main, the main papers, the main panels, not at all interested in hearing. For someone like me.

justifying evil is kind of their job like like water. Their guidelines exactly.

Well, IT depends who you talk to. But a secular zed context and biotech has been sort of taken over by was called the principal ism, which is this idea that there are four main principles and bioethics, turns out autonomy really high in the list. The first principal actually, uh, nona event, do no harm, which is a classic biology principle, but nefarious, do good and justice, give everyone they do. But those things, those principles, a talker are just so generic and so on, specific virtually anyone to can manipulate those principles and sort of end up with what they want at .

the end of the day. But don't kill people is a well.

you might say that's not of life.

what clearly is .

not the justice, right? But that's what i'm talking about. So you know what is harm is parasite on what is good, right? And if we have a disagree em about what is good um then we're going to disagree about what non moleskine is what know I say first, do you know harm right?

Well if I think uh you know that there's no such thing as human dignity and that we really just need to be maximize organs for transplant, what is doing? No harmony, such which will quite different, right? IT might in fact be saying, I not really need to test for hypothesis function.

Let's just declare this individual dead and decide that we can take their organs, right? So when we have these ford sort tage generic principles, which rule the day and by secular biathletes today, you can really get anywhere you want with them. Um and so IT turns out, Frankly, that those of us who are doing theological bioethics end up and to having our own conferences, our own journals, our own sort of intra um insulated uh discussions and secularized medicine really does is with few exceptions. There are some exceptions. Secularize medicine rarely gives us the kind of here.

So no ethics without god, like why would there be? And I mean, I think .

there's a strong case to be made that that especially I mean, the first bioethicists were in fact.

the allotments. We will if there's no higher power, how can there be absolute right? wrong. You can say that. You can say, I prefer this thing to that thing, but you can say that anything is wrong.

Why is slavery wrong? Why is murdering your neighbor wrong? We you can say what bad in some sense, but you can say it's wrong, can you I think on what basis do you think? Yeah.

I think I think it's kind of I like the cut flower analogy, right? You can still say, well, here's a flower, right? And it's pretty and it's whatever.

But it's been cut off from the thing that gives its life. It's dying is on its way out. So there are secular people, uh, who do, who do offer vision's of human dimity. They offer visions of human equality, but they've been cut off from the tradition .

that god gave.

Fy, if if you put them down and you just go all walk.

I just think this is preferable. Like, life is Better than death. Cruelty is bad. Why is a bad? So because I don't like IT, okay, but that maybe I do like IT, so how can you say you're right and i'm wrong because they are not appealing anything above themselves, therefore ced a circular argument.

And the and the thing that I find so interest about this is um mysql counterparts um in these fields so that criticize religious people for being um you know I believe in superstition um irrational you know in try to impose their point of view on others but in reality, if you just walk uh these the secular folks back to their first principles, their vision of the good, you say, okay, you've walked you back and you believe in the greatest good for the greatest number, why do you think that? Why do you think you should max mize the greatest good for the greatest number and why do you think that's the primary thing you should do? And there aren't any rules govern that at all.

They don't have an answer for that, tucker. It's just something that grabs them by some sort of authority or intuition or self evidence. But that sounds a lot like a faith claim.

right? They're just children. What have you ever asked them? What do you think that not use in asia program was IT justifiable? And how is that different from what we have now?

Oh, they would say that the reason why the native program was problematic because because I didn't respect patient autonomy, the first principal bioethics. And and and we we differ in what way? Well.

given the conversation .

over the last I want in half or whatever it's been, I think it's very clear we also patient anyone who .

forces a vaccine on somebody, by definition is not respecting patient autonomy. If i'm telling you, you're required by law to put some drug in your body that you don't want how my treating was a human being, i'm treating you was my slave as a sub human right?

Well that's the argument that we've had um now for several years, which is isn't an interesting that um many of you were all about bodily autonomy are all about about autonomy uh when IT comes to reproductive rights so called but then we we're very happy to justice and conscience routes and bodily autonomy rates when I came to those uh sorts of issues that doesn't seem to be um again a kind of good vision of the good .

what is the east community say to that? Well, i'm sure they went all in on the vx Mandate mean of course, IT. Yeah I mean.

as you know, they're been a lot of important questions asked across the board recently that weren't asked at the time. But at at that point, I think there is just a ton of fear, right a sense that like um you this is almost always how IT works, right these sort of things a road because of clam but not to be .

mean or whatever, but that is my default um don't we have ethical precisely for the moments that are ruled by fear? Isn't that that is when we lack a clear consensus on the right direction and when our judgment is modeled by panic. That's exactly the moment. We need clear thinking effects. Correct, correct.

That's why we employ them. That though.

and IT was at that moment that they like we're swept away by panic too.

You know what? Not all of them, but a lot of, but a lot of them. A lot of them. I was one of the ones arguing that um you know kaol losers actually has a very robust sense of conscience, right?

H say like oh conscience is a place where you meet god in the most profound way and um and where you and where where god speaks to you in the most profound way and conscience um rides actually um have been coded left for a lot of uh the churches history in recent years um but it's interesting again when the sort of fear took over um the the focus on conscience sort of win away right like the sense of I mean, I I don't agree with some of the claims that people were making about you know the kinds of connections to aboard body parts and things like that. Reasonable people can disagree about that. But I would say, hey, this is enough of a serious argument we should respect people's conscience rights to choose not to take the vaccine because but but it's so interesting that those arguments .

devastating of what you even hear least that I didn't um okay. So last question I have I would just to say that because I know that your well you're catherick the illogical um and i'm a lifetime person so i've always been for contraction I never really thought about IT was one of the things we used to make one of the catholic control OK.

They had these giant families which we for summaries and considered bad s it's i'm lavc is it's like it's hard even to imagine having those attitudes now, but I wanted but I i'm saying that by way of confession. But in the last few years I have noticed the reason I ve had caused to rethink all this is because i've noticed that almost every major push from the public health community and certain tly from our politicians is anti fertile. Yeah that's what they're focused on is the one right you possesses the right.

To have an abortion, that's the only all the right to speak freely to to have control of your own money, to gather with like minded people, to protest your petition, your government, not of those right, still exist. The only right you have is the right to endure pregNancy, and of course, to prevent IT in the first place through birth control. And I just am sensing a theme.

I'm not a genius, but I I have noticed that the thread that connects all of their main concerns is the same. And they don't want to have kids. And why is that?

The multi variant problem. I mean, if you look if you look at surveys, women are very consistently reporting that they would like to have more kids and the kids they actually have right think yeah yeah um and the reasons they give are very interesting uh uh both um vans and walls in the recent debate were asked about paid family leave as a possible option uh to pursue and IT was very interesting in here than both offer sort of vegas supportive ideas with regard to to that a number of women give the lack of paid family leave as reasons for why they don't have the number of kids that they want to have. Others uh suggested that you know they would much rather have A A A, A A not be in a two income trap right where they feel like uh, they must be away from their kids all the time.

And this with warn before he became just teleport in robot. What he is today wrote a wonderful book on this called the two income trap, which I quoted at lengths on fox news ones without identifying the author. And I could hear people applauding in the audience until he found was who wrote up, but he did right IT.

And he made that point. If you ask when, what they actually want, not all, not ours, but the overwhelming majority would like to raise their own children, people in their little, yeah, you know, no wants to hang around a fifty old, I got IT. But when there are five, most one would like to raise their own kids, and not important people from another country to do IT. And that seems like the most human of all desires, and is the one desire that we thought. And I found that conversation of paid family leave like useing, actually, because that was, no one never mention the possibility that maybe women could raise their own kids.

Why do we have to choose between the two?

exactly? How about the thing that people really want, like above all else, which is to be with their own children? The most important thing i'll ever do is have children. And maybe they they like to be with him for a couple years, but no one even mention that.

I think they don't you know this peer speculation. I think one reason people don't mention that is precisely because of how deeply um the systems and structures which have LED the two income trap our foundational in our .

culture we would have to undo. I mediate tt human, it's denying people the true source of joy in their lives and subsiding IT with like a banking job or something. It's orderly, pointless and destructive.

Know what you really need to do instead of having kids to help us loan money at interest? I mean, that's so disgusting to me. sorry.

Actually, the exploit of lending money interested used to be called user and I used to be considered a intrinsically .

evil act in the tradition but still in my house so that I feel about that strongly um but that's considered wildly controversial I mean like you know having six trains kids is considered great but critics user is considered like wow off the chart, crazy, lazy. I find a disgusting. I just want to be on the record saying that. But anyway, but what why would you want to deny people, children? Like what is that impulse?

Again, I think is more of a very idea. Other variable I would include is is the the climate crisis that is constantly thrown at people right to say like I don't want to bring children into a world where everyone's gone to die for things related to climate change um I think also they are not worried about .

a nuclear war which they live. I mean they brushed to the brink of nuclear war where we are as of right now october second, I think it's october second were on the brink of nuclear war right now but nobody cares but they worry about climate changes. It's going doesn't make any sense.

And again, there's no reason we need to choose between the two but I don't like this. I can't think of one uh um but then there's also the drug companies here as well.

And this is again, I keep on bringing up this amazing um show you did with the with the mean siblings I brought up uh big pharma and and and exploited practices of of of contraction tion as part of big farma a we talk about getting kids on a regime which makes farma should tunes of money for almost their whole lives well how about getting um a Young girl birth control from the time she's twelve until the time SHE um SHE has menopause? Right think about that windfall. Think about um what that means. A for the broader culture. A to and we said we we support patient autonation, right except for a twelve year old girls with the doctor just OK, it's time for you to be on contraction now on everyone to goes long home and and we're just now really starting to reckon with what this might be doing to women's bodies .

and and behind the disaster. And Young women know that. And I think the number of Young women getting off the pill is extra extraordinary, right? For the first time in my lifetime, I mean, I was always considered really subversive and not acceptable really to point out that the pill increase struck risk. For example, this abortion increases breast cancer resks. I will to mention that either alum, but I never put IT all together in my mind, which is the one thing that all of these attitudes have in common is the desire to stifle fertility. And it's hard to escape the conclusion that there's a spiritual force behind that.

Yeah, it's a spiritual force that may again run throughout the different topics we've engaged. It's it's again treating women not as fully the autonomous individuals.

Ironically though, that's the language would use, which is used to suggest that they need to do this right, except for women who do want to present from this, who want to lead different kind of lifestyle, who are often actually not religious at all, but sort of cluny you progressive lefties who say, I don't want to put this percinet in my body. I want to put this poison in my body, right? That's again one of the things that's pushing uh, back from this.

We use the language which actually inverse what is actually happy. We use the language of autonomy, empower and women. But in reality it's it's doing precisely .

the opposite. It's interesting though the connection i'm so let you pointed that out is not just like even in iowa who are suspicious of the current program is also like, you know the fury on pit girls and for that who I supports strongly, I should just say that. But what are those two have in common? No, but it's it's kind of secular gruntal people too yeah to the extension still exist.

Aren't many of those left wish we had more the great people but what do they have in common with religious people? Well, they're both kind of grounded. You actually there is something beyond the digital world and they're both more in touch with themselves like those are the two groups in amErica who might actually have a moment of silence every day where they can listen. You don't mean yeah and .

and skeptical of what's being foisted on them by corporations and others who want to make money.

It's only you that silence that you can be sceptical otherwise your senses or by the machine in your hand and you don't have even you don't have time to think and more important, you don't have time to listen, you don't have time for silence and it's in silence that you receive wisdom .

obviously obviously .

um and so the rest of the country goes to sleep with the T V. On and only the the goal chicks and the religious people don't have IT on and maybe they're hearing something that the rest of us should be hearing and that's ah that's a wonderful .

thing to I don't know if this is what we're going to finish, but that's a wonderful thing. Can we can we make space for that silence, right? That plays again where god meet us in our most foundational way like that is, I think that maybe I don't want to speak for you. Maybe one reason you moved up here, the main because at least in my short time here, this seems like a wonderful place to encounter that silence, to put the phone away, to to put the the pounding um thee that just dom helps you do like that helps you pushes you to doom scroll and feel terrible uh but instead think critically, but also think creatively. I can't tell you how many times my creative thought, even whole book ideas have come just when I was holding my infant in my in my life and and just had nothing nothing to do but let that have .

but that's always where IT comes. I have a chair outside my tickets on every day, not for healthy reasons. I'm obviously like one or more and healthy people you meet. Um I planned by a ten of join tobacco today so i'm not a health guy at all but I am a silence person and that's why I do IT and known as my seeder church.

And like if I get fifteen minutes to sit, book naked in the hot room and silence, like that's a masie mum improvement over not doing IT and I have a chair outside my sona. I used to write my whole script just sitting there, you know, like you just in silence. Only in silence can you receive in actual clarity and wisdom so any i'm not articulating for you are no you ve got .

to and that's historically again to take to the to the tradition um that i'm that i'm bound by uh there was so much emphasis on finding these times for silence right to imitate cries going into the wilderness, to hang out with the with the monks, to to get out of the situation you're in and allow this voice to speak to in a way that allows you to be both critical and creative.

IT seems like a pretty scary religion, if that I can see what .

people hate IT IT turns .

out silence and non violence and imagination .

and critical thinking. Who wants that Carried .

caring for disabled to kia? Man, wo slow out. Man, you're freak me out.

Sorry about that talk.

I sure appreciate you're taking all this .

time absolutely .

to talk about all of this last question where if people are interested in and I erupted you so many times and we didn't get two a lot of things. But um for people who want to understand more about how you think in the way you've connected a lot of seemingly disconnected trenor city which are of of a peace, I think you where can I read you .

so my twitter handle is at c chemosis. So at C C A M O S Y. Probably the book i've written, i'm starting book ten, are trying to finish book ten by thanksgiving. But probably the book that makes um i'm actually writing a book right now trying to finish book on how understanding that what a good death looks like can resist physician assist in suicide. So maybe we could talk about that some other time too. But h, to answer to the question you asked me um I rote a book called resisting throw away culture how a consistent life as the can unite a fractured people and that book really is the offer is the kind of vision that i've been trying to articulate.

I hope you'll come back when your death book comes. I actually have seen a good death. yeah.

I was privileged, really privileged to see that when someone I love. And boy, you know, when you see that, don't you? Yeah yeah. So, but I haven't thought very deeply about IT you clearly. So hope you come back and thank you.

Thank the .

one thing you unites gonna happen. Truly thank you very much.

My pleasure. Thank you.

Thanks for listen and stuck across some show. If you enjoy IT, you can go to talk, to cross and the calm to see everything that we have made. The complete library, dr.

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