2025 NFL Draft Rankings: running backs & tight ends deep dive with Nate Tice and Trevor Sikkema
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This episode of Football 301, Trevor Sigma joins me from PFF as we look at running backs, tight ends for the 2025 NFL Draft. All the top names, some in-between names, middle round names that we'd like as well. Fun, fun, deep dives. Plus, we get into the Bengals signing Tee Higgins and Jamar Chase, the big contracts at the top of the show. Super fun show with Trevor. See you guys in a sec. Are your ulcerative colitis symptoms proving difficult to manage?

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Hello and welcome to Football 301. I'm your host, Nate Tice. Very fun show for you today. We're doing a little hard right turn from free agency because that's how the NFL works. Free agency and the draft are in unison. We have to focus on both. We have to focus on all these new team additions. These happen through different avenues. We also got the trade market that's been booming apparently the last couple of weeks. But today we're going to talk about the NFL.

We are going to preview the draft prospects, the running back prospects, and the tight end prospects for this upcoming draft. Two loaded classes, at least in my eyes. And to maybe get some more eyeballs on these two position groups is PFF's draft expert, my friend, Trevor Sigmund. Welcome to the show. Welcome to Football 301, Trevor. Good to have you. How are you doing today?

I'm doing great, Nate. Appreciate you having me on the show. I'm excited about this one. I'm excited about the topic because these are two positions that this year there is no shortage of guys to geek out about for a lot of different reasons. So honestly, I highly respect how you watch a lot of these guys, too. So when they were like, hey, you want to come on the show? I was like, yes, selfishly, I get to listen to Nate talk about these prospects. Sure, that actually sounds good to me. So I'm excited about this one, buddy.

All right. No, I think our producers are like, no, no, no, no, no. They don't need to hear any more words from me. No, but that's why, I mean, a couple of months ago, a Superbowl week, we got to talk, we talked QBs right after the senior bowl. So that was a lot of fun. I know I'm like, my, my wife can't hear me talk about.

Riley Leonard anymore. You know, she can't hear me bring up the 26 year old quarterback from Louisville. You know, like she, she's tired of it. She can't hear, Hey, Hey, this old guy can really spin it. You know, he's got some medical history, but you know, it's not because of soft tissue stuff. It's she's, she's over it. She's over it. So it's nice to talk to some peers.

about meeting some of these guys and prospects and everything. Now I feel bad because I think I specifically asked you about Riley Leonard when we were talking at the Super Bowl when we were going through our thing. You did. You did. Oh, it was catnip. It was catnip. I know. James and Tinting. Oh, it's St. Paddy's Day. Perfect timing for it too as well. But no, before we jump into some of those prospects, there was a big signings here in the NFL. Kind of a big signing.

Kind of a long time coming. That was the Cincinnati Bengals finally getting done with their two-star receiver. So I'll call them both stars. I think that's pretty easy to say that Jamar Chase gets four years, $161 million, $112 million guaranteed, making him the highest paid non-quarterback in NFL history. That seems to just keep one-upping each other.

Miles Garrett, Justin Jefferson. Okay, now Jamar Chase getting in here. Tee Higgins, his teammate, who has the same exact agent, which I thought was hilarious, got a four-year, $115 million deal with his first two years guaranteed, making him the highest paid receiver to an NFL history. Cincinnati Bengals, Matt,

And others here on Yahoo, Matt Harmon will use the term carnival team, you know, a little bit about teams that maybe have a good offense, maybe some empty calories on the rest of the roster. Trevor, when you look at the Bengals, what do you think of this kind of team makeup going receiver quarterback? I mean, obviously you pay the quarterback in Joe Burrow. That's like, yeah, we have that. But this team makeup and maybe going receiver top heavy and what they need to do to maybe fill out the rest of the roster that maybe is now so receiver heavy. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, if I were sort of doing the team building decisions in a vacuum, I would have paid Chase and I would have traded Higgins and gotten something back for Higgins just because there are so many times where you can draft wide receivers, not even in the first round and get really good wide receiver to production. But I can understand for the Bengals because even though there's not a lot of examples where you see like paying skill position players is really the best way to do it.

It works for Cincinnati, right? And if you still think that you are in a winning window, you better keep the strengths as strong as possible. So it's sort of interesting because it's like, all right, well, you look at the struggles that they've had over the last couple of years. I know injury has been part of it. Like that goes into it. You know, it's just some slow starts. But it's also hard to look at this Bengals team. And even after this move, which...

I think a lot of people would tell you was correct given their current situation. It's hard to go, yeah, okay, now we can expect way more from the Bengals. Now, I think a lot of people that would believe in them and the ceiling of this team would look at the second half of last season and say, okay, well, if you give me that for all 17 games, well, now all of a sudden we're talking about a team that's probably making the playoffs and it was a team that nobody really wanted to see last year. But

When you look at now these three players being on the second massive contracts, I saw this morning on Twitter from Jason from over the cap, $124 million per year is now allocated in three guys. So that's just, and none of them play in the trenches, right? One of them said, I mean, playmaking at the wide receiver position is important. Obviously the quarterback is the most important, but like,

You know, now they've got to have Trey Hendrickson conversations where if you keep him and you want him to stay happy, well, then that's going to be another, what, like 30 plus minutes? So now you're talking about like near 160 million of your cap space devoted to four players. Again, it's hard for me to say that the Bengals made the wrong moves here. Maybe paying them earlier would have been the right moves. But keeping them, I understand because you want to keep the talent on the team, but moving...

Moving forward, there are going to be a fascinating case study of having all of this cap space wrapped up in so few players and none of them outside of maybe Hendrickson being trench players.

I know I've been trying to just divvy it up because my anecdotal comparison to this is not even just paying two receivers. I was just paying one receiver was when my dad was with the Vikings, they traded away Moss because they're Randy Moss and their theory was in 2005 was we will.

him in the aggregate and also make our defense better. We will spend the money to make our defense better. We'll take the drop off from a locked in top five offense. Maybe we're 12th now on offense. This is all theory. Related note, my dad got fired 10 months after this. But the was recreate the

the wins on the offense in different means. Okay, our run game will be a little bit better. The ball will be more spread out. We already paid Dante Culpepper. But then on defense, we can spread some of the money we were going to pay Moss to be on defense. And the thing was, the discussion was having an A offense and a D defense. And now maybe we have a B offense and a B minus defense and we can win more games.

I understood that argument, maybe, but it's easier in theory. And that's why I'm saying that maybe it was too scary to go, hey, we have an A, A-plus offense here. And we have a makeup with trust. And you see the layers that Burrow adds to this offense. It's not another offense or there's not another really unit that can do what the Bengals do because of just the chemistry that Burrow has with his receivers, how much control Burrow has.

There's some negative downsides to this, but there's also a lot of benefits to this. So that's why I think it was, is it ideal? Like you said, like, yeah, they could probably have maybe nipped this earlier a year ago in an ideal world, but I think they're trying to make do with what they have. And I just think that that's, this team has so many holes on it that might as well just have some strength that we can lean on every week. Other opponents are going to come in scared going, well, we got to stop Higgins. We got to stop chase. We got to stop burrow for 60 snaps. That's,

There's got to be benefit to that. Even if it's not idealist. I'm a trench first, trench always first team building guy on top of the quarterback as always. And then pass rush as well. Like that's how my team building philosophy goes anyways. But I think I agree with you where this is just a fun experiment to watch. And I get maybe it's just too hard to take that hard right turn. I was just going to say like at this point in time, like they're kind of like pot committed, whether or not,

you like the bet that they're making, the chips are already on the table. So if they were to, that's why it's like, if you would have told me maybe two years ago, I maybe would have planned to move on from Higgins and be able to mitigate that a little bit better. But at this point in time, let's say, let's say they didn't even franchise Higgins. Like let's say they let Higgins walk.

all of a sudden I don't really know what the Cincinnati Bengals are outside of just throwing one-on-one balls to Jamar chase for 20 targets a game. He basically gets like the Brandon Marshall, 20 targets a game treatment, but that's like every single game that he plays next year. So, and this is why you can run with trees for hours because everyone's scared of the receivers. So now you can take a lesser running back and the lesser quote unquote offensive line and make them work because everyone's scared of the receivers. So yeah, yeah, it's, it's just, it's tough. Or,

you know, you try to pivot off of it. Maybe the Jermaine Burton,

draft pick uh kind of maybe uh it was uh that was that was the potential pivot point and then they're just and when you see joe burrows right and that was maybe their way to go okay now we build a pathway to get this next guy and then they're like oh never mind that was terrifying and scary and our quarterback hates him apparently our rest of our team does not like him so uh i know it's i was curious if higgins would hit the market because i i i'm sure this is

less than he could have gotten on an open market. That's how it kind of works. So I, but I think it's just hard for the Bengals to pivot off of this. Yeah. It's a,

They're an interesting team, man. They've been my entire life has been the Cincinnati Bengals have been interesting in some way, shape or form. You can even go back to the Achilles Smith days. So it's something interesting. Any other thoughts, though, on the receiver market or DB market as well? Like anything like the corners have kind of caught up. Do you think the receiver market is maybe plateaued now? Like I'm trying to just even think who the next guys to maybe get paid. But it kind of feels like the money now is going to get spread out to other positions.

Yeah, it does. It does feel like that a lot of the top guys are getting paid. I will say this. A lot of people were freaking out about the JC Horn contract when he signed it at the beginning of the free agency period during the temporary period. And even even I was sort of shocked by that. I was like, whoa, he's missed a lot of games due to injury and giving him the highest paid cornerback contract. And then the more I thought about it, the more I did research on it, I went, oh, OK, OK.

Stingley is up soon. Sauce Gardner is up soon. Trent McDuffie is up soon. Deron Bland is up soon. And so they, they sort of Carolina sort of like barely got JC horn to the highest paid corner in all football, which lasted a week before Stingley signed his extension. But the whole point of it was to get ahead of that deal because the

What they didn't want to do is let JC Horn have a really good year. Now Stingley signs for, because JC Horn's getting 25 per year average, and Stingley just signed for 30. So Sauce can say, like, I think Sauce can say, like, okay, well, I've made more Pro Bowls and, like, things like that. So he can go, like,

okay i'm ahead of this and then then mcduffie for the chiefs can go okay well i play basically every defensive back spot that you want me to play so i'm more versatile than those guys so he might he's gonna get something close to that so um i actually thought it was like obviously it's a bet obviously it's a risk with horn given how much time he has missed but like that's one where that was a very intriguing move where right off the bat you go whoa what are they doing and then you go

okay, I actually don't hate this. This actually could pay out really well for them. It actually looked like a bargain. So that was my big takeaway of sort of those markets, those two markets. And they had the market for, they had the cap space to be, to sweeten that a little bit, you know, just maybe inflate it a little bit. Like, you know, as far as how they sign Horne, I mean, shoot, now the Patrick Sertan deal looks amazing after these guys get signed. But also it's, everyone says, oh, the corner market's coming back. It's like, well, you need, you need to pay players.

Like the, there's not a coincidence that all these guys that just got paid were top 10 picks, you know, on the McDuffie potentially is going to be a first round pick or was a first round pick as well. You need the payer players to pay. It was like last year, the defensive tackles all got paid. Everyone goes, Oh, defensive tackles, a premium position. It's like, well,

there's just a lot of good players. Like, so obviously the market's going to fall where the good players are. The dollar amount's going to follow them too. And if there's such a gap in between, like, for example, like if there's two to three years that go by where we're not really, we don't really have the defensive tackles to sign, um,

salary cap goes up basically every year significantly so like that you have to you know account for that sort of jump in in it as well so yeah because i was i was just looking it up this is the last thing i'll leave it on yeah because the 2021 draft was horn and sirtan and then the year and mcduffie i believe too and then the year before that was the the top 10 pick corners were jeff akuda

And CJ Henderson. So if you're wondering why corners didn't get paid, oh, and then AJ Terrell was big 16. So, so Terrell, but that's why maybe you're not seeing that bump in Mark. Cause those were the guys that are supposed to be paid at least in this next year. But I always just think it's funny. It's like, you can see where markets are going based on drafts from three or four years before. It is so fascinating though, because as somebody who, you know, pays very close attention to the NFL draft and tries to sort of figure out where teams are going, you know,

you want to have a good finger on the pulse of what the NFL believes are premium positions. And I think that it's, it's, it's a little bit of a, you know, an Evan flow of like some like trenches are obvious. Quarterbacks are obvious, but like sometimes we're in an era where receivers are getting paid a ton of money, no matter what, but like sometimes it's been corners. Sometimes it's been defensive tackles. Sometimes it's been linebackers sometimes like, and so, um,

I'm always trying to figure out everybody tells you like follow the money right I can't remember where I first heard this quote but I heard it from somebody and they're like owners will lie with their words but they won't lie with their money you know they're not just going to unless you're

the Falcons and Kirk Cousins, I suppose. You're not just going to spend a lot of money. And that's ultimately why. I heard some rumblings before the draft last year. They were like,

Pennix and the Falcons. I'm like, there's no way. And I thought of that. But I thought day two, I thought that meant day two. Right. So anyways, outside of that one example, you don't see a lot of teams smoke screen you with,

significant money that they will spend to a certain player. Normally, if they're spending that, they're going to have faith in that player and they're going to give him a shot. But other than that, I'm always trying to follow the money to see what NFL teams and what owners really think about premium positions in the NFL.

I'm sure. And to tie it to the draft before we go to our break, I'm sure Travis Hunter was very excited to see those numbers too. Okay. Maybe this full-time corner thing. Isn't the worst thing in the world, you know? And also, yeah. Yeah. Hey, the market's gone up. And also, Hey, this, this also too, it's all about the player getting paid to like Fred Warner is going to get more money than anyone else at linebacker because he's how

how many Fred Warners are out there. You know, it's how many of those guys are at those spots. So shoot, if you're a Travis Hunter and you're a top five and potential top five corner that can also play a little receiver, you're going to have your own little market. You're going to have your own little Travis Hunter market. So that's just tied into probably one of the top players in this draft. I think it's pretty definitive. I was even trying to watch him today and he was still standing out as I was trying to prep

for our running back prospect discussion, which we will talk about right when we get back from this break. Last year, Americans ate 32 billion chicken wings. Who knows just how many helpless sides of celery were heartlessly thrown away. But this year, celery neglect can stop with you and irresistible Jif peanut butter because you can make a snack to make a difference. You can buy a jar of Jif to save the celery.

So please, don't let celery be decoration for wings. Tap the banner to save the celery. All right, we are back for the piece de resistance, I think.

That's the 2025 running back class, which I'm pretty excited to talk to you about. I want you to paint the picture, Trevor. If you haven't checked in, you're just finally now tuning into the draft. Trevor, how would you paint this running back class if I haven't already kind of shown my hand a little bit about how much I like it?

It is. I don't know if I would say masterpiece, but it's, I mean, it is one of those things that deserves one of those, you know, adjacent rooms in the Louvre, like next to where, you know, the really great paintings are, the super famous ones. Although I will say the Mona Lisa was a little bit overrated when I went to it. There were great pieces of art that were right outside the next hall.

hallway. I'm going to be honest with you. And that might be the best way to talk about this running back class. You have the stars at the very top. You have Ashton Gentry, but then you don't have to go very far. It's not like it's Ashton Gentry and then a bunch of day two guys. Like you've got players who Omarion Hampton from North Carolina, like he's somebody who could get into the first round. I know some people think about that with Caleb Johnson and I, and the Ohio state running backs as well. Henderson and Judkins, like they're every single, I would say in every,

The cool part about this running back class, and we don't get this every year, in increments of 15 picks...

You will have running backs that you could put in every bucket. First half of the first, second half of the first shot, first half of the second round, second half of the second round and so on and so forth. And so that to me is the fun part of this running back class is throughout the entire top 100, in my opinion, no matter where you are picking, there is a running back that you can at least have the conversation about. And I think that's what makes it a lot of fun.

I agree with you. I think I'm going to end up having, as of right now, a couple of guys might get tweaked, but 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. I have 11 guys, 11 players that might potentially make my top 100 in this class. How many do I have? You said you have 11? Yeah.

11. I think it's going to be in 10, but I think I'm going to my 11 right now. And I think you are at, I wrote it before the show. I'm at 10. The one that I might cut might be the one that you have cut, which is Ollie Gordon, I believe.

Oh, yeah. So I don't have all my top 100. Yeah. Yep. That would be the one other one that like I was maybe sneak. That's like he's kind of the cutoff for me, but we can we can talk about him the sex. I don't want to spoil. That's the tail end of this list. But again, he was the guy shoot Gordon from Oklahoma State was the

some people's running back to some one, I would even say before the year going into the year. Yeah. You know, I had a lot of production and everything kind of fell off and everything. I don't want to ruin our, our, our, the fastball on all we gourd because he's not even our top 100 here, but let's start off at the top of this class. You mentioned that there's going to be a player,

for sure in the top half of the first round, or at least has graded that way. And I'm, I I'm in agreement with you, Ashton, Jente running back Boise state. You have met five on your overall big board. I had him in my top 10 as well. I had met six. So yeah, I've seen him right in the same tier to your break right there. Give me, give me your, I want to say one liner, maybe your five liner on Ashton Jente and why he is, I think accountably,

a consensus top 10 player. I think I'm almost everybody's big board because of that type of player skill set that he has. This is, this is how I would describe Ashton Gentry in an easy way that is pretty digestible for people to understand. I think it's absolute BS and disrespectful how much we are giving away the Alvin Kamara comp every single season. If a guy,

breaks, if a guy bounces off one shoulder tackle and gets into the end zone or catches a pass out of the backfield, or maybe if he even just has dreadlocks, somebody goes, oh, look, it's Alvin Kamara. The Alvin Kamara comp is right there. And I think

And I think that is disrespectful for how good Alvin Kamara was, especially when I say was, just when the Saints were in the prime of their offense, what he was that offense. I think that comp actually fits for Ashen Genting.

Like I genuinely think that it is that he is, we finally have somebody that's actually worth the Alvin Kamara comp because first and foremost, the balance through contact is there. This is somebody who is consistently bouncing off all sorts of tackles, whether it's wrap up tackles, whether it's guys trying to hit lay big hits, whatever it is, his center of gravity at five foot eight, five foot nine is so low. He is so powerful. The weight is distributed so well. He has, so we have a,

We have two stats that I'm going to reference a lot throughout this show at PFF that I love to lean on when I evaluate the running back position, because, you know, we always have this conversation with running backs. Look at Saquon Barkley, for example, right? Saquon Barkley, he has a historic year with the Philadelphia Eagles. People go, oh, look, look at what the Giants, look at what the Giants gave up. He wouldn't have had that year with the Giants. He could have been the same exact player, had the same exact health, same exact, same exact talent level. He would not have done that with the New York Giants this past year. And the reason why is because offensive line is,

paramount to a great rushing attack so how do you scout running backs in a way where you're not totally leaning on that caveat all the time well we have two stats of pff that i'd like to categorize when we get to do that missed tackles force per attempt okay that's an average of how often you are making a guy miss whether it is agility just straight up you know juking him and not letting him tackle you or that could also be breaking tackles so bouncing off tackles as well both of those count as missed tackles forced per attempt so we have that average and

And then we have yards after contact as well, because that's independent of the offensive line. You can get hit from contact two yards behind the line of scrimmage. You get hit at contact at the line of scrimmage. You get hit after contact at the second or third level. But how often are you getting yards after the first time you initiate contact with a defender? That's also independent of your offensive line. Ash and Jenty in both of those categories.

So damn elite. He averaged this past season over five yards a carry after contact. If you gave this guy the ball and he got hit at the line of scrimmage, he was getting halfway to the first down on first and 10 on an average. Now I know that's not exactly how it works, but that's not right. You would take a five yards per carry average at all.

let alone after contact. So that just goes into it. And then he's missed tackles force per attempt. I've tried to contextualize this for people that don't have, that don't look at it all the time with PFF or listen to PFF all the time. But, um, the way that I would say it is you want your NFL backs coming from college, the NFL to have an average of at least 0.20, at

at least 0.20 something in the 0.20s that's what you want for an nfl caliber back if you get into the 30s 0.30 and above that now you're talking about okay you are a pretty impactful inefficient back every time you touch the football i can realistically expect you to make somebody miss almost every time because you've got that type of playmaker mentality if you have a 0.40 and above

100%. If you've got a 0.40 and above, we're talking about like top tier category. Like this was Bijan Robinson when he was at Texas. This was like...

trevor etn in his best years when he was at clemson like some of the best backs the best single season uh running back seasons that we have had are guys who are in that category ashen genti 0.41 this passes like it's just it is it is a truly elite number how much he is making guys miss so that's why that's why i have him number five overall not only that he's a good pass protector and he's a good receiver too people don't realize

because he didn't really get used to it like it this year. He had an elite PFF receiving grade the year prior. So this is a full three down back, in my opinion. He gives you that benefit on passing downs that you love to sort of hold that value. And he gives you those efficiency metrics to have faith in independent of whatever offensive line's in front of him.

No, you painted a great picture of why he's so high on the boards. Like I really like Bijan. And I would say still one of the knocks of Bijan Robinson is that he might not have that elite home run speed. It's good speed. It's just that he just doesn't that fifth gear doesn't always get there. And you can even track this. I mean, he doesn't break 20 miles an hour as much as you would think. But he gets to that.

He gets from zero gear to fourth gear very quickly. And I think Jenty has that same quality as Bijon, but then has that fifth gear to take it to the house. I'm glad he brought up the receiving stuff and the pass protection stuff. That's also, you know, something that's going to make me interested in a running back, but also on top of it, he has the skillset and the explosiveness of a guy that you take in the first round. So he has the dirty work stuff as well. I compared him. I love that comparison to Camara because he's,

just that smoothness and how he bounces off bodies and it's able to quickly accelerate get right back into speed even after after contacts i i totally get that comparison with him i am going with priest holmes for him because they have very similar yeah yeah very high high lofty comparison here the other one i have is ontario smith the wizinator from uh my old vikings days because they're both very talented backs ontario smith would have been a first round back if he uh

If you ever want to look why he needed the Wizenator, you'll know why he's out. I was out of the league in three years, but a very talented player back in the day. But same thing, just that good build, not the big, big height, but that good build, even if they're not the tallest guy, which doesn't matter for backs, but have to bring it up. But that contact balance, the shiftiness, the vision to set up the hole as well. Like he is not just speed, speed, speed, speed like that.

That's why even a guy like Jameer Gibbs had to learn how to kind of maybe throttle his speed. Now, look how exceptional he is. Gentry already shows that. So I'm with you. He's my top back as well. I think it's pretty easy. I'm excited to see where he ends up because I think he fits in any type of run scheme as well. You brought up Amarian Hampton as I believe you're running back two from North Carolina. You have him at 28 overall on your latest big board. I had him at 27 overall.

So same exact kind of spot. Give us the little five liner on Hampton because I, I've really liked his game. Even last year, as I studied 400 snaps of Drake May or 800 snaps of Drake May, I was like, Hey, there's running backs doing some stuff. But Hampton paint a picture for him. Trevor, why is he your running back too? And maybe I think, I don't even say maybe, I think he does go into first round pretty definitively. Now how people are talking about him, how the league, I think use him as well, but paint your picture of Amari and Hampton.

Yeah, I mean, I can't remember exactly where he is overall on my board. Actually, now that I'm glancing at it, I have him 28. That's too low in my opinion. I need to move him up, honestly, because if it weren't for Ashton Gentry, we'd be talking about this guy as an easy first-round pick as well. And the reason why is because...

He brings everything to the table, man. Height, weight, strength, speed, balance, pass catching ability. He's got some great pass pro reps. Like there is so much that this guy brings to the table and we've seen it. And he's been very productive doing so over the last couple of years. The things that sort of hold me back a little bit is sometimes I feel like he's, you talked about Jameer Gibbs learning when to throttle down and when to accelerate. There are times when I watched Omari and Hampton and I felt like, okay,

you didn't have the right blend of like patience or like explosiveness here. Like you could have judged this situation a little bit better. You could have waited for the blocker a little bit better here. Or there were other times when it was like,

okay, the block set up for you. And he was still sort of like waiting for it to manifest a little bit more. And so just a little bit of inconsistent vision there from him, but I like his skillset behind a man and gaps can run blocking plays as well as zone. Like he is somebody who, let me see, he graded better in zone. He had an elite 91.8 rushing grade behind zone. And I think that's because it was more of, it was less of that patience and it was more of like, Hey,

Let me get to my Amy point. Let me see if I'm able to hit this rushing lane. Is it able to manifest? Boom. I'm going to put my foot in the ground and then I'm going to get upfield with a lot of momentum with me. So I like him best in his own blocking scheme, but this is somebody who's just built really well as an NFL back. And I agree with you. I do think that when it's all said and done, he gets in the first round. Yeah.

Yeah, downhill is the term I always came back with him was that he just gets downhill in a hurry and has size to run through those side tackles. So I'm glad I'm so glad he brought the zone gap scheme stuff because that anecdotally, I would say he was better on zone stuff to read probably because I liked how he could run through those side tackles. It's got Yeah, I don't know zone like vision has become more of a gap man.

trait, I guess, for backs as somebody in zone. I'm still working on this, the thoughts, so don't quote me on it. But this is where, and I think I'm not the only one that's made this comparison with Hampton, is that he reminds me so much of Joe Mixon. Like, build, running style, best in zone. Like, that is the same exact kind of thing, where it's like, Mixon's always had okay vision, but it's not amazing. It's not extraordinary, but he's really good at planning, getting north, and making that one cut.

getting those six to 10 yards. That's what he's best on, but has enough juice to, you know, hit some bigger, bigger runs. Just hasn't been the run environments that have really benefited from that. The Bengals run game was very much five yards and very siloed. And then he goes to Texas with the worst run blocking in the NFL. So you haven't really gotten to see it highlighted. I think the most you ever did was maybe

That first year Joe Burrow started, the first year he was healthy. So his second year, that was kind of the year he kind of maybe saw Mixon's best traits. Might be merging some of these years together. But with Hampton, I think it's the same kind of thing where he's a strong runner. I would think he has solid vision. It's not bad, but it's not extraordinary as far as setting up and tempoing things. But man, he can just get downhill in a hurry.

And he gets those. He can eat up five yards quickly because he's so big and he has burst and explosiveness to get downhill and fall forward. So I'm with you where I kind of see him liking more in the zone stuff. Obviously, we have him graded kind of similarly. And yeah, I could see him going the first round. I think our last

mock that charles and i did we had him going to the commanders um which might be a little too low now uh but that was kind of that fit where that big back can take these touches you want maybe a scat back with him to kind of take where he's taking 65 70 of the load and have somebody else take the rest of the load i think that'd be a perfect setup for him but i'm glad you like him too i think he's he's kind of becoming the consensus number two guy i believe uh

The athletic has their consensus board and he, yeah, Hampton is 31 overall on that. So he is running back to the consensus. Moving on to maybe the guy that you have is your number three back at 52 overall on your latest big board. I actually was watching a DB this morning, but I ended up watching a little bit of this guy. Who is that running back three for you that you have at 52 overall? Cause he is a fun player.

I have Cam Scadaboo at 52 overall as my RB3. Now, this is where things sort of get clustered and it sort of becomes sort of like a pick your preference, right? Because there's a couple of backs that we have here that we'll talk about. Like, you know, Cam Scadaboo's in this group. Quinshot Jug is in this group. Caleb Johnson's in this group. Travion Henderson's in this group. Dylan Sampson's in this group. So it kind of depends like what you want to gravitate towards. I'm a sucker for somebody who will give me literally all they have.

Every single time they touch the football. And you don't care about the same contract. No, I hope he gets it. Don't get me wrong. I hope he gets, I hope he gets a second and a third contract. I hope he's great. But like just the way the cam scataboo runs is somebody had, and you, you brought up some speed when we talked about gent, for example, and look,

Do I have speed concerns with Cam Scadaboo? Yes. I don't think that he plays super fast. Now, I think that he can play explosively, but does he have that twitch that you need to play at the NFL level? Because there's a lot of plays where you watch him where he'll hit a jump cut or he'll see a hole. One, I love his vision. And he'll see a hole or see a rushing lane and he'll kind of scoot through it a little bit and he's able to get through the lane, but just barely.

And I go, when the NFL game speeds up, do you still do that? Like, do you still have that opportunity to be able to do that? Because when it comes to yards after contact average, very high for him. When it comes to the missed tackles force per attempt average, again, very high for him. I believe it's 0.35 this past year. Elite rushing grade, just because it was a phenomenal year for him. And to me, going back to the long speed thing,

There's just not a lot of times in the NFL where you even get the chance to break off even a 30-yard run. The NFL is too disciplined, right? I mean, like you just don't – like forget the 40, 50, 60-yard home run hits that some of these backs get. I mean, it just rarely happens at the NFL level. These guys are too good. They're too disciplined. So instead, I typically gravitate towards guys that go, okay, well –

Give me the player that turns a three-yard carry into a four-and-a-half-yard carry every time. And I'm typically going to lean on that sort of a back. And so that's exactly what Skadaboo's skill set is. And so, of course, I'm a little bit worried about the play speed, although the in-game athleticism scores that we have from him over the last couple of years at PFF are actually better than you would expect. And so I sort of am leaning on that a little bit more.

He had a really good vertical jump. It was the only thing that he did at the combine, but he's like, Hey, I'll show you guys, I'll show you guys and I'm explosive. So we had a 39 and a half inch vert, which you love to see. Obviously he's been used as a receiver as well. He's got the body to hold up and pass protection. So to me, I have him at the front of that. Cause I feel like,

Gent is almost a tier of his own. And then like Hampton's pretty much a tier of his own, in my opinion. And then you sort of get into this big bucket of a lot of guys. And Scadaboo is just at the front of that line for me just because of how he runs the football and how much I would, I just, I want players that are going to turn again, two and a half, three yard carries into four or five yard carries for me more often than not. And I feel like his play style at least lends itself to that.

No, I think that was a great encapsulation of what he is. I mean, there's so many similarities to James Conner with Cam Scadaboo, not just because they both play in Arizona, but just the big back has more burst than you would expect. Doesn't have a top end speed, but if he wants to plant his foot and get north, we just talked about this with Hampton, he can get there. Like he's getting through that hole and running, rushing forward. He's not getting caught from the side by a D tackle. And also on runs like duo,

which you can bounce, you know, to the front side, he's getting the edge. Like he got the edge on some Texas athletes, like not just some poor defenders that he's playing against. Like he's getting to the edge and outracing to the corner. Is he taking it to a home run? No, but he's getting a first down on these rounds, six to 12 yards. And those are the ones that add up. The fact that he can get to the edge against a corner, not just some slow outside linebacker from some crappy defense.

but a Texas corner like that, that's significant to me.

that, yeah, he's not going to be the fastest guy. He probably won't time great, but that's not his game. It's just that does he pass the threshold of speed? And I think he does. But I think there's just a lot that, I mean, him and Conor, Conor's a little bigger height and weight-wise, but, I mean, there's a lot of similarities where the vision's actually better than you expect, better athlete than you think. They're not fast. They have a weird style, too, where they can run between the tackles and somehow make three cuts. Yeah.

you know what I mean? They will bump in and they cut sideways and it cuts sideways again and then get North and they got seven yards and you're like, that was so ugly, but it works. And it's because they're so strong and the guys can't grab them and pull at them. They just keep their feet. That translates because he's shown it to me that he can do it. And it's not like he's just getting a couple of yards. He's getting big gains. So that's,

He grew on me where I was like, oh yeah, you're kind of a folk hero day three guy. And then now as I've like really studied him, like, I mean, this is the game that translates where at the very least he can share a backfield with somebody. I did not want to like Scataboo. Like for the longest time, people brought him up to me at the beginning of the year and they were like, you got to watch him. This dude just stud. And I remember watching like two games of him and I thought the same thing. I was like,

like slow. He's slow. Like I don't just write off the first, like couple of games. I was like, Nope, I'm not even thinking about it. And then I, and then he just kept being productive and I go, okay, let me take a deeper dive. Let me give this guy an honest assessment. And when I did his full scouting, you feel, I was like, damn, he brings a lot of what I want to the running back position. He really does. Like, uh, um, he's, he's not the exact same player, but like,

The reason why the Rams love Kyron Williams. Kyron is not the most athletic dude in the world, but he's got good vision and he turns again, two or three yard runs into four or five yard runs. And that's why the Rams love him. And that's, that's just a, that's a player that I kind of think stylistically or vision of success. That's kind of where I go to with him. Yeah. I, I use my baseball analogy with that. Kyron Williams, he just gets on base.

It's it's doesn't home runs. He's just gets on base. It was blocked for four. He gets five and he does it every time. He doesn't waste any touch where it's like, God, why did you bounce that? God, why'd you cut there? It's like, nope, that's what it was blocked for. He got it. And that's the kind of how Scaboo is that Connor could be like that too. Connor sometimes will bounce things where I was always just like, Hey, Oh, okay. It worked. Okay. We'll go for that.

But no, these guys. Okay, good job. All right, we'll talk about it. No one else do that. Okay, okay, but you can get it through. But you mentioned too, and maybe this kind of wrap up the running back or kind of leads to the end of the running back discussion. You mentioned that Skadaboo kind of maybe starts this tier of like group of guys. And I agree. I completely agree with you. Skadaboo right now for me is six on my list. Three, four, five.

Six, seven. I still haven't split hairs on this because I actually kind of want to pick your brain a little bit on this. Who are some of the other guys? Maybe wrap this up, this little group up on that tier that you mentioned. And maybe who's one that you're higher on the most in this group? Scataboo is kind of, but I think a lot of people like Scataboo, but like that, you're probably the higher guy on that. But maybe some other guys in this group that you might be higher on that you could see. Shoot. I'd say all these guys are easy day two guys to me. I think we have a lot of the same, same names. Yeah.

Yeah, I think that these guys are day two guys, in my opinion. Scadaboo, again, like when we talk about this bucket, Scadaboo is one of them. I think Quinshaw, Juggins, and Travion Henderson, the two guys from Ohio State, are in this bucket as well. Those guys are a little bit frustrating to me because Henderson –

was good his freshman year, hurt his second year, sort of came back his third year, but he wasn't the same player. A little bit of a cold start to start this season, but then he finished the season really great. And he was like that speed back that you wanted him to be. So if you have faith in what was that college football playoff run and him down the second half of the season, then you really like what you saw. I think the same thing about Judkins. I had Quinn Sean Judkins as my RB1 going into this season, even barely above Ash Jennings. I did too.

And that's because he was sick at Ole Miss. He was unbelievable at Ole Miss. Amazing. I watched him. I watched him. I did the running back scouting evals in like mid-December. So we hadn't even hit the college football playoff yet. And I'm watching Quinn Sean this past year from Ohio State, and I was like,

Dude, where's the creativity? Like, where's the yards after contact stuff? Like, it just... The whole regular season when he was at Ohio State, it just wasn't there. And then we get to the college football playoff, and he's an animal again. And it was like the Ole Miss version of him. So I remember writing his scouting report, but I was very frustrated on what happened in the regular season because I felt so much of a lack of creativity that I even remember in my, like, bottom line scouting report, just like my quick synopsis. I say of him...

He's incredibly talented back, but if he doesn't go to the right offensive line, he might really struggle to produce in the NFL because of what I watched in the regular season.

And then he does what he does in the college football playoff. And it reminds you of what he was when he was at Ole Miss. So I think that he started in that conversation. He'd probably be my RB for next Dylan Sampson and Caleb Johnson. The other two that I would bring to the table. I love Dylan Sampson's home run speed. I love the fact that he was a big time track guy when he was in high school. So he brings that track speed to the field. He can't keep fumbling the ball the way that he has over the last couple of years. Like that has to get so much better, but he is a dude who,

I think has that legit home run ability. And then Caleb Johnson, Caleb Johnson is like science guy meme hands up. Like, I don't know what to do with you here. Um, because yeah, I want to hear this breakdown of Caleb Johnson because he's, he's a unique watch. Yeah. So there are plays of Caleb Johnson and, and a handful of plays. I'm not just talking about a couple where I go, Oh,

That's Todd Gurley. That's today's version of Todd Gurley, who he is as a runner. I love him in outside zone. I love when you can get him towards the sideline and he can just put his foot in the ground and just take off up the field. I think for being 6'1", 225 pounds, the long speed that he has, the top speed when he gets up to it, ton of speed to power that he converts there with his momentum, can really get up the field and hit those home runs for you.

I thought where there were good plays, he was inconsistent when it came to those third down abilities. So like pass catching and pass protecting, not that he can't do it. Obviously he's built like somebody who I felt as though could be a nice third down player, but I didn't think that he was consistent in either of those areas. And then there were times when I just didn't love his vision between the tackles in those man and gap scheme run blocking concepts. So if you tell me that like,

If you put Caleb Johnson with the Minnesota Vikings, the San Francisco 49ers, like teams like that, where you were just able to get to the outside and run outside zone a lot, like I'm in. Like he would be a thousand yard back for you, even as a rookie. But I don't think...

One thing that we're doing at PFF this year, which I'm super excited about is we're getting into more like team centric big boards. So we're going to release team like top 100s, like for every team, like given what they need, given their styles, like all this kinds of stuff. And Caleb Johnson, to me is going to be one that's going to have a ton of different range. Cause for some teams I might go, I don't love him behind that blocking concept that they're trying to run. And in other concepts, I might go, this dude's going to be a thousand yard runner if they draft him as a rookie. So it's,

To me, there were just too many areas of his game where I felt like it was inconsistent, specifically in the third down, like pass. What do I say? Like, like pass game pluses. I just felt as though he was a little bit lacking in that regard. But like, as a runner, like I said, there are times when I watch him and I go, this is Todd Gurley again. So there's just, I'm very indifferent about where I'm going to end up on Caleb Johnson.

yeah he him i have him and juckins right next to each other um i was kind of like running back three four and i'm totally with you is that he grew on me he was a guy that i actually was lower on the most and then he kind of grew on me and i feel like i'm gonna stay right here in this range where what i have the overall like mid 40s kind of overall my big board somewhere around there um there's some arian foster there and i think maybe it's just some uh

zone, zone, zone, but they're the same size. They kind of have same speed. That's the guy that I keep watching. That's the upside that you're hoping for. But again, where Arian Foster go in the draft on draft and that, that, you know, do you take that skillset on day two? Like, you know, and again, that's kind of going with the result of Arian Foster was, but again, just saying some of the limitations, he's a classic early down only back.

I like this guy to take the majority share of touches, but then you need somebody else on your team to balance them out, to help them out, to do some of the dirty work stuff, to be the pat classic scat back protection back. If I could get,

shoot if i could get johnson and travion henderson on the same team we're golden great great just get these two like we're awesome because henderson just the little one-liner if you don't know anything about travion henderson guy could take it to the house and he's great in pass protection those are his and he's gonna have a lead he's gonna have a role in the league for 10 years just doing those two things big plays and pass protection

So I'm kind of with you on Johnson where I don't love him as maybe some other people do. I kind of just like him, but I like him only for certain teams. So just exactly how you're kind of describing him. Glad he brought up Samson. He really grew on me. Man, I thought he had some good vision and has the speed like you're bringing up as well. The vision was shocking to me. And I loved it. Talk about tempoing and everything. That's a guy that knows how to use his speed.

doesn't play like a smaller back. Even if he'd have the greatest size, I think he weighed 200 flat, I think at the combine, but he maximizes it and he plays as big as he can be. It's just, you have to be realistic about what his role is going to be in the NFL. Like you don't,

guys like Jameer Gibbs are like the cutoff of how small you can be to take a main role. And Gibbs has battled some injuries when he's had to take it, but also he shined when Montgomery was hurt. So that's the other side of it. But you know, you always have to be realistic about the weight. So that's what the ham I'm, I'm trying to gauge that. Um, like how much I'm willing to tolerate that because I, I just really like his game. If he was five, 10 pounds heavier, I'd be all, you'd be maybe two for me, but you can bring up the fumble stuff as well. I, I really like Juckins. Um,

how you just described everything was exactly how I felt. Had him as running back one going into this year, him and Gentry were willing to right next to each other. Then it was all off the little mistape. And I was like, this guy might not hit a home run, but holy crap. Talk about getting on base. Talk about hitting doubles and triples and,

breaking tackles and vision and size. And his 40 times at the, at the combine exactly matched that the miles per hour is really high after five, 10, 20 yards, and then dip from 20 to 40 yards. And I was like, that's exactly how he plays. He went from above average to below average on the long speed. So I'm glad you brought that guy up too, because Judkins is a good player. There's a lot of these good guys. And all of these guys I see is round two, Bob Henderson. You also had RJ Harvey from UCF.

I'll admit, I'm a little lower on Harvey. That's your boy? I'm a little lower on him. Come on, Nate. Okay, okay. Perfect. This is a great way to end this. I'm a little lower on Harvey than others. I view him as maybe an early round four, late round three guy. But give me why you love RJ Harvey at 24 years old.

So again, I, all right, easy, easy shot there at the end before you have me take over. No, I do like RJ Harvey. I think the last couple of years have been very productive. I think we need to look at the last three years that he has been in contributing or starting running back in college.

He has averaged that missed tackles forced per attempt average. It's been above three in the last three seasons. So consistently a player that makes you miss in a phone booth in a lot of different ways. I love the way that he approaches being a running back, wanting to make players miss. I think he's got pretty decent contact balance to him as well. I didn't think he has the greatest long speed in the world, but when he was at the Combine,

showing off a 4-4-1 40-yard dash. I was like, all right, I didn't even know if you had that in you. So now I already liked it. Yeah. Me too. Me too. I did not think he was going to be able to do it. Now he doesn't play with that home run speed nearly as much, but it's good to, and it's nice to know that you have it in you. I think he's got some soft hands in the receiving game. I have said this before. I, I, I,

He is sort of my Bucky Irving in this class because I had Bucky Irving as RB5 last year. And Irving was a fourth round pick, right? And he ended up being phenomenal for the Bucks. Now, I will say this. It's not a carbon copy. So I'm hesitant to say the Bucky Irving comparison because of how great he was for Tampa this past year. It's not a carbon copy thing because I think Irving is –

a little bit denser in his muscles. He kind of takes contact a little bit better. I think he dishes it out a little bit better. So I think he's a little bit stronger of a back, but both of these guys had a very high missed tackles force per attempt average. And I think that they saw the game very similarly when it comes to setting guys up to make them miss and

and just try to find some open field to get some extra yards once you get to the line of scrimmage and even to the second level. So R.J. Harvey is just kind of my guy because the more I watched him, the more I gravitated towards who he was as a playmaker when the ball was in his hand. So I'm a fan of his.

Yeah, no, I saw that you, I mean, we're going to probably end up having them in the same kind of tier. Um, I just have maybe a couple of guys notched above him. He's the, and he's the last guy of that group. I said that I could see all going by the end of day two. Like,

Like he is the, he's the, he, he's the bottom of that tier for me, but I still like him. Like, that's the thing. That's if he was in previous classes, I'd be like, man, this guy might be running back for like, you know, and, and for the fact that I have him basically running back 10. And I don't mean that as a diss. Um, it's just, but still, I just speaks to this class. So I'm glad we got to talk a little bit of Harvey. I would say my version of that, the guy I'm higher on than others is Devin Neal from Kansas.

You have him at 93 overall. I ended up squeezing him into my top 50 just to make a little bit of a statement. I really like him kind of a little bit smaller version of David Montgomery. That's kind of my comparison for him.

uh, like same tempo in the runs. I talked about long speed again. He did not, he timed basically how he plays, um, like almost like a four or five, eight guy. Uh, but he vision catching the ball, pass protection. He, uh, my kind of guy all the way. So my version of that is Devin Neal, uh, as you just brought up, Harvey is my kind of guy. I'm a little bit higher on the, maybe others and squeezing them in my top. I had, I put them above Henderson just cause I think his role, uh,

will be a little bit more down to down than Henderson's will.

I think that there's so much to love about Neal's game. And this is somebody who is a legit multi-sport athlete. I mean, he committed to Kansas because Kansas was going to let him play baseball and football. And he tried it for a little bit. And then like many other guys who try to do both, they realize like, okay, well, doing one of these. Do you see AJ Brown talking about that?

No, what did he say?

And then they're throwing a breaking ball. That's 88. That's the speed of the fastball. And he goes, so the first time I went up and they had the clip playing, he goes, I said, I'm going to just swing at the first pitch I get. And he does. He like chops it down. You could tell. And he goes, that's why I decided I'm going to go catch some passes. Yeah.

As soon as you see that one breaking ball coming at you, man, it's like, Oh, no, but I do. That could, that could very well be the case, but yeah, challenging linebackers at the D one level is an interesting, like, yeah, I'm going to go do that instead. But you're right though. He just,

he approaches the game in a way that you just love the IQ, the vision. And I don't just mean as a ball carrier, like who he is, a receiver, who he is, a blocker, the multi-sport background thing. It really matters because I just think he approaches the game at a very high athletic IQ level. So Devin Neal, he's, he is somebody who I think just because of his limited athleticism, he'll be more of that third, fourth round pick. But if you get him in the third round, I think you'll be happy with him. If you get him in the fourth round, I think it'd be a steal for you.

Yep. I think that's a good one. The other one was Damian Martinez, but I think our running back, there's a lot of running backs, guys. There's a lot. I don't know if you guys got, got the long story short about this class. You should be very happy if you're in a dynasty league and you need some running backs. Yeah. We got, there's a good crop coming your way. We are going to take our last break and we're going to come back with tight ends, which is also an interesting class, but maybe not 10 guys in the top 100, like Trevor and I just to head for the running backs. Yeah.

Okay. We are back with our last little section here. We just jumped into a running backs. We probably could have got another hour. We didn't even talk about some of the guys that wanted to combine. We didn't even talk about DJ Giddens. DJ Giddens is another fun one too. I almost threw in there at the end. I know we were trying to segue into tight end. So I didn't want to, you know, take over the podcast myself, but I almost was like,

Also DJ Giddens And I almost just threw him out to you Good ball player Also Damien Martinez And also Just all these backs And a half of the guy that was on top of some people's boards A year and a half ago Donovan Edwards Remember that name people? Dude we didn't even talk about Olly Gordon We were going to talk about Olly Gordon Why did we talk about Olly Gordon?

Is it Tutton or Tootin from Virginia Tech? Tootin. Yeah, he ran the Tootin. Ran the 40 in like two seconds. All right, but we're getting to tight ends. Also a really fun and interesting class. Trevor, I'm going to let you just paint the picture of what we got with this group of guys. I believe you have...

Four tight ends in your top 100 as of last writing, but I mean, they're all pretty up there and that's more than usually seen in classes. That's a lot more day three guys and late round two guys or round three guys. But paint the picture of this tight end class, Trevor.

I mean, it's a lot of tight ends that are, I think, taking on the identity of where the game is going. And I think that to further explain that, I'll bring up Sean Payton's quote when he was at the Combine that everybody's sort of obsessed with and makes them think that they would draft Colson Loveland at number 20. He talks about having that joker position on offense, right? It's that...

hybrid sort of player that easy there, like a tight end slash slot wide receiver, or, you know, a running back who could also play in the slot type of guy, just a middle of the field, multi-versatile type of player for you. And again,

I think that we have seen the tight end position evolve a lot over the last really five to six years. I know that you have sort of coined the term that I love, like these power slot players, you know, like these bigger guys that, okay, don't exactly try to paint them or put them in a box of a regular wide receiver, but they do play those wide receiver snaps and rolls. They just do it at a bigger size. And so you have some running backs that have the ability to do that from the slot as well. And,

when it comes to this tight end position there's a lot of guys that can be that for you and i think that we still see the need for teams to want to have these uh you know true like y in line tight end type of players but then you have these slot f type of tight ends that are hey i'm just a slot receiver and that's what i do really well look at brock bowers all right brock bowers pound for pound a pretty nice blocker do you want him in line on the line of scrimmage all the time i

No, probably not. But you play him in the slot and you watch what happened last year. That's pretty valuable, you know? So you don't have to get these tight ends that necessarily play on the line of scrimmage. Is it great to have a Tyler Warren, who I'm sure we'll talk about here in a second, who could do all of that? Yeah, but you can also get really good production out of this position for guys that are a little bit lighter and just a little bit more athletic. So to me, this tight end class, as stacked as it is, sort of encapsulates the versatility that we see at the position now.

It's always going to be impossible. I mean, it's the Mike Leach line. Tight ends are great if you have them. If you got them, they're great. But you got to find the 6'5", 250-pound guy that can run, catch, and block. I was saying this to somebody the other day. Is tight end...

Trench people might be mad at me for this, but like is tight end like the most football position, you know? Like you got to be like 6'5", 250, 260, but you got to run like a wide receiver. You got to be able to block like an offensive lineman. And it's like, I just, the more I think about it, the more that might be fine. You're going to play special teams all the time and probably have to tackle too. 100%. 100%. So like the Mike Leach line is so,

perfect as was so many things that Mike Leach said, where it's just like, yeah, sure. If you have a six foot five, 265 pound versatile athlete, like I'd love to have one of those, but not everybody gets that one. Cause I don't come around very often. Line them up, get them out there. We have one too. Yeah. Just, just, just find the next Gronk. It'll be great. It's easy. No, it's, it's,

And that's why it's just so hard to grade these guys, especially coming from college, which is so spread heavy. And so just like RPO heavy. And there's some creativity and actually where I'm like, oh, that's how you hide a tight end from blocking. And you see...

And what I'm getting into this is that I have maybe changed some of my evaluations on receiving only tight ends. Like a guy like Sam Laporta might be my best example of this is really liked him, really, really liked him coming out of college. But I was like, well, I don't think he can hold up in line. So how high would I take him? Well, if you get to the right coordinators, and I think these coordinators are getting so much better at.

hiding the guy like going hey you're gonna be on the back side of this block we're gonna rpo you we're gonna put you in motion so you have a more advantageous block you see the rams do it a bunch packers do it a bunch um see more creative offenses do that so it's kind of maybe bump some guys i used to and we'll talk about one in a sec but the guys that i maybe considered oh no he's receiving only so yeah i can't take them too high now i'm like well now these guys are just big receivers and they get used like that so maybe actually it's

They almost like a discount because the receivers are getting paid more and getting drafted higher. So maybe you get a guy using the same role, playing the same amount of snaps. So just getting into it because it's

There's a couple of guys that kind of applies. It's applicable to, well, not really the first guy because he's got his own unique thing for that. You have Tyler Warren as your tight end one, eight overall. I also have him as tight end one. I have him at 11 overall. So same tier more or less, but Tyler Warren, Trevor has some of that ability to maybe be in line. You know, what did you think though of maybe his combine measurements, little shorter arms? Does that maybe inhibit you from,

I don't know if the, has he reached as high as he can go? Maybe on your board, do you have any questions with that or really why do you have them as high as you do? I mean, we both do, but why do you have them as high up here? What are his traits that make him such a, I mean, top 10 talent in this draft?

Yeah, I mean, uniqueness, I think, certainly goes into it. Again, going back to the Mike Leach quote, it's like you don't really find a lot of Tyler Warrens. And so I think that him just being somebody who is listed at 6'5", 260 pounds, he can basically do it. You can line him up and tie it in. Now, I don't think he's like an all-star.

all world mauler type of a blocker, but I think that he is certainly good enough to hold up in line to compliment the offensive line, the way that you would want to tight end to, especially one that is also giving you plenty as a receiver as well. So he really is like, he's a, he's a total package type of a player. Yeah. Do I wish the arms were a little bit bigger? Sure. I wish he had, I wish he held onto his blocks a little bit longer sometimes, but

there's just so much of what this guy brings to the table that you absolutely love. And, you know, he was talking about at the combine. It's like, oh, why do you wear number 44? Well, I wear number 44 because my dad told me I needed to run like John Riggins every time I touched the ball when I was in, you know, peewee ball. And so I just kept it with me the entire time. And it's like that mentality that he has as a player, I think just goes a long way. So, you know, he is somebody that, you know, you mentioned,

And sort of having to reevaluate how you scout tight ends. I am with you 100%. And that's why this year and what I do moving forward is I actually have the tight end position broken up. And I did this with a lot of positions instead of like the standard 11 or 12 that you have. Like I have...

I think like near 20 different positions that a player can get categorized in. And for tight end, I have, I have Y tight ends. I have F tight ends. And the reason why I have them differently isn't just to rank them a little bit differently. It's also to grade them a little bit differently. I have grading scales of, you know, film notes that I have of certain athletic traits or production or things like that, that show up on film that I,

will weigh heavier, right? You know, if you're somebody who I think you're going to be a power slot, a big slot type of a, a tight end, well, I'm not going to ding you as much if you can't block because you're not going to get drafted to do that. So why would I scout you sort of the same? And that's something that I've thought about for a while. And I really actually dove into that this year of sort of splitting those positions up. And obviously, you know, we have on the PFF big board position, common positions kind of are what they are, but

what I have is almost like, okay, I have tight end. And then I have a sub category of the tight end position. And I have that for a handful of positions, right? Like interior defensive line, for example, interior defensive line. I have three different categories. I have nose tackle. I have three technique, defensive tackle, and I have three, four defensive ends. You know, for edge rushers I have, are you more of a hand in the dirt for three defensive end or you have three, four outside linebackers. So like there's just, I want to,

be more practical about how I am scouting these players knowing that every team could look at them a little bit differently and and we say all the time like well if you know if he goes to this team he'll be great if he goes to this team I don't really see the fit well why would I scout him as if the team that he's not a fit for is gonna like him I I would really want to scout him for a team that's actually going to lead into the things that he does well so Warren is

We start out with luxury at the very top. I have him listed as a Y tight end, like an inline tight end, just because he could do it, but he scores very high at the other stuff as well. And it's not that, you know, I have these two different categories for the tight end position. It's not like receiving matters so much for slot tight ends and it doesn't matter at all for inline tight ends. No, no, no. It's still matters. You're still asked to do it. It's just, you know,

Maybe the scale, the weight of the scale is a little bit different. But Warren just brings everything to the table, in my opinion, that you would want out of a first round tight end and somebody that can have value for you no matter what you are asking him to do.

No, and everything you're bringing up with the difference in positions and everything and roles is that's how teams are graded, too. I mean, I could just speak to where even with the Falcons, you know, how they would do it is they're trying to make it more where the board is horizontal. So you can compare guys to positions and everything. How do you rate a receiver that we think is slot only?

is he comparable to a guard that's limited in pass protection or a position only guard, like where they only can play guard. They can't play center. I can't swing out the tackle. Yada, yada. So it's always like downs affected role, potential role. And then versatility gives you a bump as well. Mostly positions like line, but even a receiver, like a guy that is a slot only more valuable than a guy that's okay on the outside and the inside. Well,

but some graded similarly like you know so it's that is a tower boyd as useful as a prime i'm just trying to take it this is a terrible example robert woods you know like something of that sort of guy that's a z and inside he might be a little too good to compare as a tower board but you get the point here um but that that's no that's where tight ends really gets affected and you brought up

A Y is in typical terminology parlance is a inline tight end. A X is a receiver, a Z is a receiver, a Y is the tight end, X, Y, Z. And Y traditionally means that you are in line. That means you are attached to the formation traditionally. Now these guys move around so much more.

But when you hear Trevor, I'm kind of explaining it to the, to the listeners, but if you get what Trevor is saying with the why, or even with myself say, why, why tight end? He's a true why that means this guy is an inline tight end is a traditional tight end. As we picture it, he's an extended tackle. Who's also a receiver as well. Gronk is the epitome of a why that is the perfect why a guy that's a, a plus blocker and an eight plus receiver. Like you're never going to see another Gronk, like probably never ever. Um,

And so that's where a guy is a receiving only tight end is a F. F is the term for adjuster. But F can mean fullback, can mean second tight end. It also can mean slot receiver if you're really getting into it. But it's F means receiving only. A guy that's off the ball, a guy that's lined up in the slot, a guy that's in the backfield. They're the move guy, the adjuster. You might hear H as well. That's the Joe Gibbs term using an H back.

But yeah, just want to explain that as well, because I also think it's interesting in this year's class, because I'm with you on Warren, where he can do a lot and has potential to be in line, which gives him the bump for me. I think his blocking in line is it's it's OK.

I'll put it above average. I would say maybe come up for a prospect out of space when he's on the move, it's really good. And I would say the arm length is a little worrisome because you're blocking as a tight ends could be more run blocking where I think the arm length matters more. So that is a little bit where I might ding him like,

two spots, but it's not, it's splitting hairs, you know, when it comes, comes and goes, but he's still going to be my tight end one. And I'm with you, just the versatility creating yards after the catch is huge at any position. And the fact that you can get maybe some juice from tight end is a bonus. And I think he can do that as well. Dallas Clark's kind of been my comparison for him. And that just gives it both more.

44 in college, but it helps. Maybe they're both Pete Maravich fans. That was my original. Maybe not. It was Riggins. I didn't know it was Riggins, but he said that he, I interviewed him at the, at the Superbowl. Warren said that he tried to emulate his game after Jeremy Shockey, which was not the name I expected him to say.

But actually, they kind of look alike, like face-wise and hair-wise. They kind of do, actually. They kind of do. Yeah, and they're built kind of the same, too. So, I don't know. But I wasn't – I don't hear a Zoomer – what's younger in Zoomer now? Is it Gen Alpha, as they call them? But I wouldn't expect to hear it. I wasn't expecting to hear a Zoomer, though, say Jeremy Shockey. Like, you know, like I was like, oh, well, that's a –

Okay. All right. I gave him a little props going like, hey, that's a good name to drop out there. All right. All right. I can maybe see that a little bit. But why that whole YF discussion is so interesting with this class is at the top because the guy that you have is tight end too. I also have his tight end too. I have him at 14 overall. You have him at 29 overall. The consensus has him probably somewhere in between as most consensuses do. And that is Colson Loveland, tight end from Michigan, who like a lot of Michigan players,

Had a little bit of a drop off from 2023 highs to the 2024 lows. I see Loveland Moore as an F tight end, a move tight end. But what do you think of him, Trevor, as your tight end two in this class that has some interesting names? Yeah, I mean, it's just the split with these tight ends is very interesting because I mentioned Warren being that Y tight end. But then my next one, two, three, four, five, six tight ends after that.

are all F tight ends. And then the next, the next, the next Y tight end that I have is Mitchell Evans from Notre Dame. And it's, he's, he's just outside of my top.

who I like still. I like Evans. Just watch the tail end of the year once he's back from his injury. It's so much better than the beginning of the year. Anyways, Colson Love. He is 6'5 and a legit route runner. And it's hard, independent of position, to be 6'5 and a legitimate route runner. He's got great hands.

Pound for pound, he's a pretty decent blocker. Again, like, I'm not going to put him in line, tell him to go up against base 4-3 defensive ends or anything, but like,

If the linebacker's coming down, he'll hold his own a little bit. I don't think he's going to blow him off the ball, but at least he'll be there. If a strong safety's coming in and they're trying to set the edge, I think he'll be able to work for you. But you're mainly going to use him as a receiver. You can use him as a slot receiver. I think you can even use him as an X receiver as well. I think he's that good of a route runner to be able to play him as a pseudo X on the outside to the sideline if you really need him to. But yeah, definitely a down year for him.

Just because a drop off in production for him, but just Michigan's offense overall. The passing offense wasn't nearly anything close to what it was the year prior when it was J.J. McCarthy there. The offensive line was almost completely different. The offensive output was bad. And then just overall, he went through a lot of injuries.

too. He was out for a good portion of this season. And so you really have to just watch the 2023 season to really appreciate Colson Lovin. And I think when you do, you see a guy who's worthy of being a first-round pick because of everything that he could bring to the table as that receiving tight end type of player.

Yep. You're comparing him more to maybe slot-only receivers. And I'm not saying as a dis to Loveland. I'm saying that his route running is so good. And he can beat slot guys and safety types, which is what you have to show. Can you beat a DB one-on-one? Okay, we can split you out. Laporta could do that. Dawn Kincaid, still a question mark a little bit, how consistently he can do that. Loveland, to me, is what I think people thought Kincaid was.

you know, where people thought he was this dynamic. I think Loveland is more dynamic than Kincaid. That's fair. I mean, I thought Kincaid was going to be dynamic coming in the NFL and he hasn't quite been that. Right. So, that's fair. And I think Loveland's just maybe a little bit bigger, a little bit twitchier. And I liked Kincaid, don't get me wrong. It was just that I think that's where I can

see that maybe a little bit bump in that role. And I actually love when grew on me. I liked him going into the year, tight end one, everything kind of a little dip in the first half of the year. I think the Texas game kind of cooled me on him. And then after that, watch more of the games. I was like, oh, okay, nevermind. You got some juice. You got some ball skills. And so I'm with you. I could see him

I've been mocking him going to the Seahawks a little bit and the Texans as well. I kind of just like those fit. I know, right? Especially in the Kubiak offense in Seattle and what they're trying to do. I don't know what Seattle's trying to do overall, even though I'm like the one few guys that's not like acting like the sky is falling. But I could see him maybe being a good Shanahan tight end.

where he can be a zone blocker on the outside and do some flexibility stuff around the formation. So that's where a little fit I like for him. But no, it's basically like,

yeah it's like for loveland it's more like do you like him or mecca abuka better like that's kind of what it comes down to i i feel like do you have a do you have a buka higher than loveland on your big board too i think i have a buka top 20 i believe let's okay okay you like them like them i like them too so don't get me wrong but uh but that's where you're kind of yeah i have i have a book at 19 yeah okay i

I think I have my 22. So I'm like right, right in the same tier, but yeah, same kind of tier player and stuff. But no, loved ones fun. Just going to be, I think it's very much more of a has to go into, there has to be certain fits that are better for him than others, which is always in the first round. You want your guy to be kind of scheme proof.

as well. Let's wrap up with the rest of the tight ends that you have in your top 100. I believe you probably have, I don't even have to look, I can guess probably two of them. Elijah Arroyo from Miami and Mason Taylor from LSU. All right, I know two of them, but I don't know if you have any more up there. But yeah, let's maybe just

wrap up the show with these couple guys um because i think they're really fun i talked about royal a little bit last week at the end of the show but maybe the next two tight ends in this class or maybe anyone else you can sneak up you can see sneaking up in the top 100 100 yeah i mean arroyo is fun like you mentioned uh i my favorite part about the offseason for him is they showed up at the senior bowl 65 250 like i i genuinely thought that the way that he played i was like

okay, he's going to measure in at like two 35, two 38, something. And I'm going to have to like, I'm going to have to come to grips with the fact that he's below 240 pounds and he absolutely wasn't. So, um, not only is he big enough to play the tight end position the way that you want to, uh,

he's a good enough receiver and he showcased that in mobile. So I like him a lot. I have 58 in my top 60. I like Mason Taylor. Um, I, I feel like I'm a little bit lower on Mason Taylor than some other people are. Like, I think he is a good receiving tight end, but he's,

I think he is... The Combine perfectly encapsulated this. I think he's a smooth athlete. I don't think he's a great athlete. And I don't really think he's an in-line guy. So some people who are projecting Mason Taylor to be this early second-round pick, it's like, okay, that's just a little rich for me. I would like him...

If you pick them late second, it'd be fine. I like him more in the third round, getting him as that receiving tight end. Just because, again, I don't know how much of a difference-making athlete he's going to be. I think he's going to be smooth. He's going to be able to create some catching windows and some throwing windows, but

but I do feel as though he might have to be a contested catch type of a guy a lot in the NFL. I'm not saying he can't, but so that's my assessment there. The other two guys, one guy I have firmly into my top 100. The other guy is just sneaking in. T-Ferg, Terrence Ferguson from Oregon. I have it 76. He is another guy who...

Built very well, 6'5", 250 pounds. I think he's a pretty good all-around athlete. He was the best athlete that we had of any of the guys that tested at the Combine, so I love to see that. He showcased that, in my opinion, when he was at the Senior Bowl as well. I think he would have had a much more productive year this season had Tez Johnson and Evan Stewart and Treshawn Holden not been the wide receiver spots. And I think Oregon's offense just really wanted to emphasize that.

their wide receivers more. That was just where they mean. Yeah. Yeah. More naturally. They just wanted to spread it out a lot more, but I think Ferguson's best days are as a pro. So I, I do like him a decent amount. And then Harold Fannin Jr. Is at 99. So he's barely sneaking into my top 100. They're like Fannin Jr.

I just don't know, man. It starts the exact same way. I just don't know. You hope he's Johnny Smith, right? I mean, that's what you hope. He's just this sort of smaller tight end that you could use as this fullback, wingback, slot receiver, motion type of a dude. He's a good enough athlete, and I'll give him his props. Yeah.

he will stick his face in there to block. Like I will give that to him. And like, he, he will do that. I like him as again, like in those wing back alignments where you can run split zone where say, you know, he's aligned on the left side of the line of scrimmage. The whole offensive line is down blocking to the left and he's coming behind the line of scrimmage and he is blocking whatever end man is left there, whether it's a defensive end or a linebacker,

or whoever it is. Like, I like him in those situations because it gets to maximize a little bit of his movement skills too. But...

I just, he's got to go to the right coach. And to be honest, I don't even know what the right coach is. I just, he's got to go to an offense that sort of, you know, allows his strengths to shine as a, as a receiver, but also as that sort of smaller pound for pound blocker, but I'm not ready to give up on him. I'm just, I'm still trying to figure out where a spot is.

He made my mid season top 50 because I was like, this is something I don't know what it is, but he didn't, he hasn't, he didn't stay up there, but I'm, I'm with you. He's going to make my top 100. That's in somewhere in the eighties, I think when it's all said and done.

And I just, I don't know what to do with them. Charles compared them. I loved it. Compared him to Aaron Hernandez. And he was like, on-field only. On-field only. Sure, sure. Yeah, right. But just, they're the same size. Even they timed similarly, which is kind of crazy. And just the funky running style. Kind of like, what do you do with this? Yeah.

Um, I know I, that's my reaction too. I was like, okay. Like that, it really grew on me as he started explaining. Good call. I know. I know. I know. That was the, that was a winner. Um, cause I want, I really do like him. I just, I want to see him in the NFL and I want to see him at a forever home. I just want to see him with a good landing spot where we do, man. It's like, I don't want him adopted by an abusive family. I just want him to go to a nice forever home and be okay. Yeah.

that's all I want from Harold. Somebody that understands him and will shoot him right and give him a great future. Yes. That's it. It's just going to work with them a little bit. No, but no, that was great. You brought Ferguson as well. Another guy dropped off this year, but man, he had some talent. Shoot, he was on my short list going into the year. So I've kept an eye on him throughout the year. I've watched so much Oregon.

I don't know if I can watch anymore. But then I'm a little higher on Mason Taylor than you, but your qualms with him, I agree with. I don't think he's an outstanding athlete, but a smooth, good athlete. He checks a lot of boxes as a player. But that's the thing. It's like, well, what do you...

I feel like a permanent secondary role, though, like he's never going to be a featured player. That's my thing. I have a conspiracy theory that I think and I promise I'm not like going for your neck here on your own podcast. I feel bad saying this, but I think people are higher on Mason Taylor because they feel safe picking him.

because they're like, this guy is not going to bust. You know, like he is an NFL player. I don't know what the ceiling is for. And that's why I'm judging him a little bit more on what I think is a lower ceiling. But I can understand when people watch Mason Taylor, it's just like comfort food, you know? And they're just like, oh, no, I know exactly what I'm getting here. And I think he's getting elevated in the rankings a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's funny. He is, though. He's like the classic quarterback's best friend, tight end. It's all... You don't want him running... Yeah, it's like flat routes, stuff over the middle. He gets some simple yards after the catch. He can get upfield nice or smoothly. That's what he is. I would say Arroyo

I it's funny. It's how this works. It's middle of the season. I liked him, but I was like, ah, I got a little lower than he tests all that stuff. Or I shouldn't say test because the senior bowl looks the part. Uh, but then studying him, I wrote up cam more last week. So I was actually like saving clips and deep diving. I watched more Martinez, watch more Xavier Restrepo and Royal. I was like, all right, I'm not going to ask him block anything.

D ends every snap. He's receiving only, but we can work with this. He's got the frame that even more weight, maybe he gets the NFL, get some more want to where you're not the primary target, but man, he gets up field in a hurry. They had some snaps of him isolated where he's just like an extra receiver running real route tree, running it.

outs and comebacks and stuff so arroyo was one i was like oh yeah whatever he's just getting some athleticism hype and then i watched him i was like he's got more football player to him some functional athleticism to him where it's not just he looks the part which is what usually gets people in trouble with tight ends hey this guy's big fast and athletic let's draft him and then the guy came and played football like arroyo like really grew on me where i was like you got more to you especially as a receiver and he's got some real juice to himself

Yeah, him and Taylor are battling between three and four for me, just like you. But they're going to be, I think, both in my top 50 once all said and done.

Man, Trevor, that was fun. That was fun. Thanks for diving deep with me here on Football 301 on running backs and tight ends. Apparently, they're not premium positions anymore, but they're premium to us. And they mean a lot to us. And that's why we can do 90 minutes on these guys because it's a lot of fun to talk about such a juicy class. But we're going to close it out today. Charles and I will be back on Thursday. We'll be looking at some more.

around the league stuff, some questions we have for some teams. But I'm Nate Tice. You can find me at Nate underscore Tice on Twitter, Nate Tice on Blue Sky. Trevor, what are you working on over there at the Three Big Letters? How many interviews are you doing this week? Where can we find you on social media, Trevor? Yes, all the social media platforms at Tampa Bay Trey. Staying busy around this time of year, obviously, but

I hinted at a couple of things that I'm really looking forward to that we're doing sort of over the next month and a half leading up to the draft. One is doing more team-centric big board stuff. And so be sure to be on the lookout for all of that. If you're a PFF subscriber, I mean, you'll be able to see all of that stuff. You go on over to pff.com and then just doing a little bit more, you know, breaking down these players into certain positions. And we're sort of, we're teasing that a little bit this year and we're hoping to really bring it into our foundation of how we do scouting next year. And so really it's just,

the team centric big boards, man. I'm so excited about that project that we have going on. And I'm hoping to nail a lot of prospect and team fits as those come out really over the next month or so. No, I love that idea. Mock drafts have

at first turn or first a slog then as it goes along i actually start like using them as thought experiments kind of going like they wouldn't take this guy because of this and you're basically extrapolating that idea though like hey this is why this guy's going here because this this and that or and the whole big board so i love that idea because it's very real like that's what happens some guys go later or higher in the draft and you're like oh because of team fit i get that or because of position fit i get that so

Love that idea. Love that thought process over there. So make sure to check that out once they guys have it all tidied up for you guys. Also, make sure to send them those mailbag questions. Football 301 mailbag at YahooSports.com. We were going to get to one or two at the end of the show, but I go long. I can't help myself. And so we have to cut them. So my apologies to everybody, but we will be getting to some of those questions very soon. Also, you can

leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, and we'll jump the line and answer that question as well. Subscribe to us, follow us, rate us, like I said. Watch us on YouTube on the Yahoo Sports YouTube channel. Thank you to everyone behind the scenes for making this look and sound good. Thank you to Trevor for joining us. Thank you all for listening. See you guys next time. ♪♪♪

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