Breaking down the Steelers-Dolphins trade + top 10 football movies & TV shows ft. Mina Kimes!
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Welcome to Football 301. On today's show, Stephen Ruiz and Deontay Lee from the Ringer NFL Show join me to talk through the latest NFL news around the NFL and, as usual, make fun of the Falcons. And later, Nate Tice and Mina Kimes rank their top 10 football movies, books, and TV shows. And we will see you in a second.

It's the NBA offseason, everybody. That means it's the best time to check out my podcast, The Kevin O'Connor Show. We're breaking down everything that's going down. Draft pick performance in Summer League, NBA trades, free agency news, and what it all means for the coming season with all of these teams making big changes this offseason and how it could change the entire landscape of the NBA. So check out The Kevin O'Connor Show wherever you get your podcasts.

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Welcome to Football 301. This is your co-host, Charles McDonald. Nate Tice, still out on fraternity leave. So, we are putting our feet on the couch once again. I've got my friends, Stephen Ruiz, Deontay Lee from the Ringer NFL Show. Later in the show, Nate and Nina Kimes from ESPN are going to rank their top 10 football movies and TV shows. Please stick around for that. But today...

We are talking unresolved situations left before training camp. But first, we have one situation that did just get resolved. Jalen Ramsey, Johnny Smith, seven-round pick, traded to the Pittsburgh Steelers for Mika Fitzpatrick, who is starting a second chapter in Miami after getting drafted there and jettisoned from there during the Brian Flores stuff back in 2018, 2019, whenever that was.

Steven, Deontay, first, how are you guys? Second, are you guys doing better than Jalen Ramsey or Micah Fitzpatrick this week?

I think I'm doing better than Jalen Ramsey. I don't know if I'm doing better than Minka Fitzpatrick. I feel like the upgrade from Pittsburgh to Miami is an upgrade that I just can't relate with at this point. Yeah, I think I'm with Steven on this one. I would much rather be Minka right now. Nothing better than going to Miami with no expectations and a lot of money in your pocket. I will take being Steven Ruiz over Jalen Ramsey right now and having to deal with Airdrop. I will say that.

Okay. Am I wrong for thinking that this trade just doesn't really matter? It's like, it's like kind of like a one for one swap, but your problems are still the same either way, especially for Miami. Cause I was looking at their defensive depth chart this morning and

And the secondary, even if you swap out Jalen from Minka, it's still treacherous out there. Artie Burns is slated to start for this team. They got something named Storm Duck who is starting, who last I heard was a quarterback for the Steelers like six years ago when I was covering the Jets. I don't really understand what is going on here, but the Dolphins have found themselves in a spot where

I'm not sure if there's any one player you could add to the secondary that would actually make it functional. So I don't really know where they're treading water here. It kind of seems like it was two headaches in both locker rooms and they just kind of swapped headaches. Like there was, it's hard to say because like at the end of the Steelers season, the whole defense wasn't playing well, but like some of the vets like Hayward and TJ Watt were kind of sending failed shots at

anonymous player saying like not everyone's doing what they're supposed to do on every given play some people read between the lines and thought that was minka i think jaylen ramsey has just been upset with miami since he's gotten there like they chased vick fangio out of town now he's up he wanted to leave again i don't know so it just seems like they swapped headaches and i totally agree with you the problems like the rosters the strengths and the weaknesses of the defense still look the same to me on paper how does it feel to be chris greer right like

to get back the guy that you gave away in the first place. You didn't recoup any of the draft capital, you know, that came with, you know, trying to acquire all these veterans with the last iteration of the defense that existed. You extended Jalen Ramsey and then said, after the extension, we're parting ways.

I don't know. That's probably outside of Terry Fontenot, who I know. I don't want to derail this conversation. I don't know if Charles can go on a full diatribe. We'll get to him. But Chris Greer is right there on that list of guys who does things that I just cannot wrap my mind around. And I think that if you're looking at this too deep, especially for a team that would like to be a playoff team, it's hard to find anything to be optimistic about on either side of the ball. But that defense has worse than the league potential.

Is this like the equivalent of like a midlife crisis for a GM doing this trade? This is like, like I tweeted this the other day, like this is a trade you do when you're bored and you're mad in franchise. Yeah. For another 85 overall, what's the difference? You know, I've been in a franchise with Charles and I feel like he's made this, this type of trade in year three. Like every time I've been in one with him.

Made it a billion times where you just trade one wide receiver for another that has slightly different stats that you like. But at the end of the day, we're not any better or really any different. I'm still throwing three picks when I get into my user games. I'm blowing late leads. And I just think it's funny that

that the Dolphins, like, why did you let Javon Holland walk if you were going to make this signing? Like, why not just have Holland and Minka or Holland and Jalen? Well, Jalen was on the way out, but why not have Holland and Minka? At least then you got like two plus starters that you can count on. Now it's just going to be Minka putting out a whole bunch of fires

And like as a as just a free safety, I don't really know how valuable that is with no real other pieces around him unless the front seven just straight up kicks ass this year. And then maybe that's your difference maker and where you can kind of

start to see some positive change on this defense. But as it is now, I don't know if there's at least a secondary in the NFL that has less talent overall than the Dolphins. And everyone's sensitive right now. I know it's probably going to hurt some feelings, but someone's got to be the worst. Someone has to be the worst. So I'm going to pick the Dolphins.

I mean, the issue, too, is like you can't count on 30 combined games between Bradley Chubb and Jalen Phillips, even within that front seven. And that would be the sales pitch, right? Like, I have to see those two guys on the field productive again. We haven't gotten the Bradley Chubb that Miami thought they were traded for in a little while. And Jalen Phillips was hot before he got hurt. And then obviously, you know, you don't put any of that on him. And he's obviously battled a lot of injury issues going back to college, trying to be available. But that's just part of the truth of the matter.

And now I'm looking at Zach Seeler, who's aging, still very productive, but is aging. You have a Benito Jones, who's kind of like a non-entity at nose tackle, you know, and it depends, I guess, on how much he plays. And I don't know how much time he's even going to get on the field. And now you need Kenneth Grant, who's really like a gap-plugging type of defensive tackle, to be another difference maker for you. There's just so many strings that they have to pull perfectly to make this work. I can't see it. Not for this team. Yeah.

Yeah. Now, moving on to Pittsburgh, just in general, a question that I got stuck on, I guess, this morning, kind of after I turned it in already, but is Aaron Rodgers going to like playing in this offense? I just can't. Like, look at what they have. Like, they're just great for Johnny Smith, who...

has not really been all that productive with Arthur Smith, even though Arthur Smith seemed to like him. I remember in Atlanta, there was just like a couple games where, oh, there's John who he's got a 60 yard touchdown where he's got a big play, but overall it wasn't very consistent. So you have an offense that wants to be, you know, a two tight end, 12 personnel team. You've got one real receiver in DK Metcalf. And then the offensive line is kind of an if question mark.

I just don't really see how this marriage makes a whole lot of sense for everyone involved. It seems like an offense that needs to be a front-running offense, if that makes sense. Like, they need to be in the right game scripts. They need to be ahead. They can't be in a situation where they have to pass the ball. Like, that's kind of what you've seen with the Jets offense when Aaron Rodgers was there. It's like they wanted to be this style of offense, whatever Nate Hackett wanted to do, but, like, their team sucked, and they were behind in games, and they had to, like, get in the gun and throw all the time. That's what it feels like they're going to be, like,

It feels like they have all these tight ends on the roster now, including like Fryer, Muth, and Washington. Are they going to be able to use it? Are they going to be able to play with their base offense all the time? You have to be a good team to be able to play in your base offense all the time. I just don't know if that's going to happen. So to answer your question, I don't think Aaron Rodgers is going to be happy in this offense. When was the last time he was happy playing in an offense? Even when Matt LaFleur got there and kind of rejuvenated his career and got him back on the MVP track,

He was kind of complaining about it. He was like, hey, I used to be able to call audibles all the time, and now I can't. I feel like he's found himself in the same situation, except he doesn't have the MVP clout that he had three years ago.

Past that, how is Arthur Smith going to be happy with an offense that's built in the old Tennessee image? And I wrote about this yesterday. Imagine building Tennessee's old offense, but you don't have Derrick Henry. You have a worse version of A.J. Brown playing as your number one receiver. And now you have a quarterback that is not at all really bought into being the under center, okay, back foot hits the back of my drop, and I've got to throw the dig, even if I don't like the coverage picture. That's just not the way that Aaron likes to operate. I think that...

And the thing that makes it tricky, right, and John O'Smith, that's another piece of this, and in talking with other people about his usage and just watching the tape in Miami, all the stuff that he does best, you already have a guy on the roster that does it. Pat Firemouth is your yak guy as a tight end. He is the guy that you can get the ball to in the red zone. He's the guy that you can dump the ball to off

to on third downs. So there's just going to be so many questions about usage and personnel. Are you in the gun the way that Aaron wants to be in the gun? How much power does he have over what's going on pre-snap? What are you going to get from DK Metcalf? You know, like Metcalf is not the same headache as George Pickens, but he's had some moping issues before in Seattle when he didn't feel like he was involved enough in the offense. There are so many ways for me that this can go wrong. And I'm just looking at Mike Tomlin like, if this is your version of all in, buddy, you

That's the problem. I don't know if... Does Tomlin think this is all in? But it doesn't even matter because the reporters around Pittsburgh seem to think that they're all in and everyone's talking like they're all in. This team is not ready to compete. So if the expectation is all in, we can already say this is going to be a failure from the start because they're not going to make the AFC championship. No, no, no. I feel like this could be...

one of the, maybe the Steelers Steelers team of like the last couple of years, like in that timeframe where they've been trying to get a quarterback post Ben Roethlisberger, but they've been too good to actually get the quarterback post Ben Roethlisberger, even though they're not actually a good football team. Like,

Like, when you look... Okay, because when you look at their stats, I was running through their page on True Media yesterday. I was like, how the hell did this team win 10, 11 games? And you look at the year before that. How the hell did this team win 10, 11 games? And it's not even like the defense is just straight out stalwart, you know? Like, they have their moments where they're not good. But then the offense isn't good. And then you look at the final score, it's like 19 to 16, and no one had a good time at the end of the game. And I feel like this could be, like, the worst...

version of that because they do have a little more talent on offense. I do think getting DK Metcalf helps. We'll see how much it matters, like just swapping DK for George, kind of one for one. If the offensive line is healthy, that should be a pretty good unit. But man, I just don't see how they don't end up playing just rock football that we all hate watching every single week, but that's what they do.

I don't know how much you remember of like the Rex Ryan era jets, but like, Oh yeah. Too much like those 2009, 2010 teams where you've got names, you know, and a defensive system that I guess is good enough to just cut, like you said, rock fight and we'll sit on the ball on offense and hope that our quarterback doesn't turn the ball over.

And we're just not in that context of the league anymore, where that's going to be good enough to get you to a conference championship. I can't see them being any better by odds or just by play than being the third best team in the division. And if you're the third best team in the AFC North, then you are basically eliminated from being a serious team. If you can't be better than Cincinnati, which I don't think that they are, that's kind of my barometer for where you are as a contender in that conference. It's going to be tough. And they don't have an easy schedule either. That's the other part of it, is that there aren't very many gimmies

So if there's anything wrong with Aaron Rodgers, if there's any health issues with Darius Slay or with Jalen Ramsey, if this offense takes any time to kind of find its footing, we could easily look up and this can be even more of a disaster season than I think any of us would pitch as worst case scenario right now. Disaster season 10-7, baby.

That's what they do. That is a disaster for them. That's how we're talking. It is. You were like, this is the worst version of the Steelers thing because they got a little bit better. You can paint a picture where the defense is pretty good this year. Joey Porter Jr. and Jalen Ramsey, that's a damn good CB duo. And even you can project further

down the line and say, okay, maybe we can have Joey Porter and Jalen Ramsey playing safety behind him at some point. And that's still a really good duo to have. TJ Watt, maybe not as consistent as he used to be, still a really good player. They got some dudes on the defensive line, and no one wants to watch this team play football. It really is.

It's really something incredible that they pulled together there because we're going to look up and they're going to have like 22nd ranked offense in like November and they'll be 10-2. And not a soul believes that they're actually going to get this done. That's the problem like in this day and age. Like you can go – you can have like that Mickey Mouse record and nobody will believe in you. Like back in the 90s, you could be like 11-0 and be like a really – like a crappy team and the media would be like, oh, this team's just got it. But like you remember the Steelers went 11-0 like a couple years ago.

teams during the playoffs. I remember betting on the Commanders to beat them. They played on a Tuesday against the Commanders. I think it was their first loss. Nobody was surprised that they lost. They just totally imploded down the stretch after that. I feel like we're in for that type of season. That's best case scenario. They're 8-2.

everyone like us is like, this team sucks and we're just waiting for the other shoe to drop. And then Aaron Rodgers is all defined in the media. But like, that's what it feels like the best case scenario is. And if you're Mike Tomlin or you're a Steelers fan, like, I don't know how you get excited about that because it's been like that for five years straight. Yeah. Singing with the Steelers, TJ Watts is looking for a new deal. He is one of, I guess, four, four pass rusher deals are still yet to be signed. TJ Watts,

Michael Parsons with the Cowboys, Trey Hendrickson with the Cincinnati Bengals, and also Shamar Stewart with the Cincinnati Bengals. Which one of these is kind of like the most interesting situation to you? Because I find it absolutely baffling that Cincinnati might walk into the season without two of their top two pass rushers that they plan on having for like a title run season. But we did talk about that a little bit last week. But I just want to know of those situations, which one is most interesting to you?

That's a cool question. To me, it's a Jamar Stewart thing because I just don't understand the spending on draft capital. If you were going to try to backdoor this contract language that you know was not there for your last couple first round picks in the exact same range, right? Like, that's the one that I just have the hardest time wrapping my head around.

The Hendrickson thing, I mean, I guess it's been so protracted because this also bleeds back into last offseason, too. So this is a storyline that people have been tracking for a while. But the Shamar Stewart one is like, why bring in a project if you're not going to get him in the door day one to work on NFL stuff? Because he needs to get better at the edge rushing stuff that you need in the NFL. I really have a hard time wrapping my head around that one. This is what Mike Brown enjoys. This is what the Browns enjoy. You said you said you said Browns.

It's Bengals. No, Mike Brown, the Browns, the ownership group. Oh, the Browns. The Browns is in the ownership group. Yeah. They do get off on this. But I got to say, I still love the Shamar. Stewart walked into that locker room and said, I need to get paid. Trey needs to get paid.

And we're not doing a damn thing until us both get paid. And the point is, they have the money. They've had the money the whole time. So what are you guys playing for? If you're not going to trade them, you're not going to pay them. What are you doing? They literally designed the T. Higgins deal to make sure that they could get all these guys back for at least one more season. And they still haven't paid Trey Hendrickson. It does not make sense to me. But I would say, like, the T.J. Watt thing is just like, just pay him.

I kind of get the skepticism from the Bengal side on Trey Hendrickson just because of his age and kind of the nature of his production. He's just basically – I mean, he's very good at it, but he's a designated pass rusher for the most part. So I understand not wanting to pay him top dollar. And I guess you can make the same argument with TJ Watt. Like Chuck said, he's not the most consistent player these days. But the guy makes plays, and he changes games. And the plays he does make are very big plays, big plays.

and affect the game. So I don't get it from their perspective. Just pay the guy. Like, I don't know. It's not even like they have an expensive roster in 2026. In fact, like your quarterback is probably gone, right? He's already kind of hinted that 2025 is going to be it.

you've cleared out a lot of other veterans' salaries. There's actually a lot of young guys on this roster. You could easily just give the dude $35 million in 2026 and say, hey, man, after your age 32 season, whatever you want to do with your football life is on you. We'll pay you to make sure that you're here for at least one more year. I really struggle with that. I struggle with the Steelers and the thinking and not having this deal done as early as possible because there's really nothing precluding them. And then there's Jerry, just –

I have no idea why Micah Parsons is not signed to a contract. I don't know why that hasn't happened like a year ago. This is the easiest negotiation in the world. I think we talked about it on our podcast. If I'm Micah, I call Jerry and say, Miles Garrett, plus a million dollars. Thank you. Have a great day. That's it.

No, but Jerry has to be the businessman. He has to get a deal done. And that's screwed him over the last couple of years. Dak, he's in the best financial situation as any quarterback in the NFL. And it's because Jerry wants to...

portray this image that he's not easily taken, you know, especially with contract negotiations. You let an overweight Ezekiel Elliott hold out and you still made him the highest paid running back. Like, you're washed, Jerry. I'm sorry. You're washed when it comes to that. Okay, this reminds me, though, when I was in Dallas for the Shrine game and it was overlapped with the Brian Schottenheimer intro press conference. First of all, holy s***, bro.

That guy can talk. Jerry can talk, bro. The first answer was 15 minutes. And it was just, why did you hire Brian Schoenheimer? 15 minutes and he cried halfway through about how good he is at picking head coaches. Not for anything sentimental, just, oh, I'm this good at picking head coaches, you know, from Jimmy Johnson, blah, blah, blah. He started crying over that. So that was weird. But then at one point, someone asked him about like,

and why it had taken so long for them to sign players in the past. Like after you see players like in their same draft, you get deals. Why is it taking you so long? And then Jerry like blamed Dak Prescott for like holding out until the last second to get his money. I'm like, I don't know if that's what's happening here, Jerry, because it keeps happening to you. Like,

now it would be cool but are all the cowboy stars you know dac prescott cd land michael parsons tyler smith are they in cahoots to say yo let's just hold jerry over the coals until the very last second and then we can't sign anybody and no one's gonna come play with us and we're gonna sputter out a 10-7 i thought it was baffling that he decided to blame blame the players for that but it's also jerry it's also jerry yeah yeah i feel like he has this idea that playing for the cowboys like

bring some type of added value and that's what he he tries to like fit work that into the contract like if you read about like how they do contract negotiating they have like this facility the star i think they call it and they have all these businesses that operate out of it he's like hey look if you come here you can have a life after football but like none of these players are going to

altered their contract thinking like 10 years ahead that they might be able to get like a i don't even know like a ford sponsorship that they wouldn't have gotten if they played in tennessee or something so i i just think he puts too much stock in the cowboys brand i think he puts too much stock in his idea of himself as a negotiator with shea shea gilchrist alexander just scored just scored what four for like 270 something

in Oklahoma City. It ain't 1980 anymore. You don't need to go to one of these premier... You know, that's true for the NFL. You don't need to go to one of these premier teams to get paid. Last thing that's been in my brain. A couple weeks ago, me and my lovely girlfriend, we went over to Barclays Center to watch the Liberty play. And we were sitting like eye level, not eye level, but like on the same row, kind of, or columnist Russell Wilson, they were sitting courtside. And

I've never seen someone whose feet are currently on the ground where a professional basketball game being played pay no attention to the game whatsoever. He was on his phone the entire game, except there was a moment where he almost got run over by Sabrina Onescu. And then he looked up for a second and then looked back at his phone until...

The game stopped to announce that Russell Wilson and CR were at the game. And then he stands up and is like, hey, you know, leading the Liberty chant, turns back around, gets right back on his phone. So that's what made me think about the Giants for the past few weeks. And I just had to ask you guys, who I know love watching the Giants and love spending as much time on New York football as I do. How good would the Giants have to be, specifically their defense, defensively?

For this to be like a watchable team and for Russell Wilson to get the glory that he believes he deserves for this year. Because if you look at it, it's not that. It's not a hard sell. You can sell yourself on some of this stuff. Except I watched Deontay Banks play last year. Yeah, it was bad. It was bad. And that was just such a drop off from, I think, where people thought it was going to be.

But then you look at it, it's like Dexter Lawrence, Brian Burns, Abdul Carter. You've moved Kayvon Thibodeau to edge three, which is probably best for him. You've got Javon Holland. You've got Paul Smith-Debo. Maybe you get a bounce back from Deontay Banks. Is there a world where this defense is good enough

where this team is actually watchable? I think so. I don't know about the watchable thing because the offense is going to be unwatchable. I can say that. Like, I'm sorry. Like, Malik Nabors, and that's in spite of Malik Nabors. Like, it's going to be unwatchable. But the defensive line could be a thing, like a thing with a capital T where, like...

it's so good that like the rest of the defense looks a lot better. Like I'm thinking of like the mid to 2010s Panthers when they had the pass rush and then like it made the secondary look good. I think you can get to that, that level. I just don't think that's good enough because the quarterback play, whoever's the quarterback, like whether it's Wilson holds onto the job or dart ends up wrestling it away from him or Jameis plays, God forbid, like,

it's going to be a mistake prone offense that you can't rely on week to week. So like, I feel like best case scenario, even if you get that version of the defensive line, it's still like eight, nine, nine and eight at best. So for me, that'd be a good season though. The terms we're using for the Steelers and the Giants, like eight, nine and eight is horrible for the Steelers, but for the Giants, that, that, you might get to come back. Like,

Like to me, I guess, and Steven, you might be able to relate to this with the Wizards being in DC, but like for me as a Southern Californian, you go to Clippers games depending on who they're playing. Right. So like when I was in high school, we would make the trek up to go see the 09 Clippers play up against real teams.

Because, you know, they've got Baron Davis, so they're going to chuck up some shots. So it might look interesting enough until the second half when the team makes adjustments and then they just get run off the field. That's how I'm going to look at the Giants this year. Am I going to watch them individually? No. But when they play the Commanders, I'll watch that defensive line up against Jaden Daniels. When they play the Eagles, I'll watch that defensive front up against Jalen Hurts and Saquon Barkley. I'm not just watching them play the Cardinals. No.

Hey, you can't say that on this podcast. Nate will find you and he will kill you. Enjoy your paternity leave, bro.

I am not watching this team play the Chargers and slog through, you know, a field goal fest. I'm not doing that. And this is 1000%. This team is made for the YouTube TV multi-view features. The moment that they get that defense off the field, I am watching something else. The audio won't be playing. I am not going to be looking in that square of my television at all.

The funny thing is Deontay gets paid to watch football. Like this is our job. This is all of our jobs right now. I'm supposed to be the defense guy. I'm supposed to be the defense guy. Right. What do you mean? I'm going to watch them. We can't say that just yet. That's what you're supposed to text me at like 7 p.m. on Sunday. I didn't watch nothing today, boy. I got to catch up tomorrow. Hey, brother, honesty is the best policy. Don't let my bosses know up front. Don't ask me for takes.

But see, this is where I think the next stage of athlete empowerment comes from, where someone like Malik Neighbors can say, you know what? I gave New York the honest try my rookie year. This ain't it. They just drafted Jackson Dart. We got Jameis hitting me in the head. Russ is praying to me. I got to get the hell out of here. Would that really be that offensive?

Would that really be that offensive? If you got Tommy, did you try to give him chicken cutlets in the locker room, man? Listen, I watched that Thursday night game against the Cowboys and I thought Malik Davis was going to die. I got like 14 targets or something like that. It was like eight plays in a row where he was throwing the comeback route. And I think what he just dropped. I was like, if they throw him another ball, he's never playing football again.

They're putting him in terrible spots, too. Just getting lit up. Lit up in the middle of the field. For what? How many games has the Giants put in last year? Four? Yeah, four. One of them they shouldn't have. By the way, they have three primetime games. Only three. It's not bad. Sunday night football, week three. I can't believe they're doing it that quickly. Yeah, Kansas City.

We'll finish out here. You know who has more primetime games than the Giants? The goddamn Falcons, who still have Kirk Cousins as their backup quarterback. When I saw the schedule, I couldn't believe what they did to me. And it's all the best offenses in the league. It stands for the Colts. I know they play Buffalo, they play San Francisco, they play Minnesota, all on primetime. Is this just a way to assault my sensibilities? And Kirk Cousins is still the backup quarterback. How is Kirk Cousins still the backup quarterback for this team?

It's the most inexplicable thing. Like, it's... I think it's just the proof that this plan that they had last year, which was supposedly some master plan from Terry Fontenot in the front office, was a poorly thought-out thing. Like, you can't be paying a back... What is it going to be? $35, $37 million, something like that? It's got to be the highest-paid backup in the history of the NFL. And...

It's just like last year, he couldn't function in the offense. So even if he has to play and even if he has to come in, let's assume that he doesn't get his pre-injury mobility back. I don't even think he's an asset as a backup necessarily. Right? And he's not going to do it either. That's another thing.

I just can't get the image of that Broncos game out of my head. So I can only imagine what it would feel like in the locker room if anything were to happen to Michael Penix. And the lasting memory that you have are those back-to-back games against the Chargers and Broncos where it just looked like Kirk Cousins was just going to take the snap and wherever the ball went from there was God's will. He had nothing to do with

as long as it was out of his own hands. This is how you know Deontay is going to hate watching the Giants. He refuses to watch the Giants, but he can distinctly remember a Broncos-Falcons regular season game from last year. That's how sick his mind is, but he won't watch the Giants. I remember that game because I had people... I think I missed the game for whatever reason. I might have been out of the way. I missed the game and...

You know, I'm sitting there, my phone's getting blown up like, oh, you hated Bo Nix, didn't you? Huh? Well, how about he's lighting up your Falcons? I'm like, I don't give a crap about that. Everyone lights up the Falcons. That doesn't make you special. And I went back and watched the game. It was just a bunch of screens that they just couldn't tackle and got out of hand. But the best part about the Kirk Cousins experience last year, he got benched off a win.

Like, they won that game against... Yes. They won that game against the Raiders on Monday night, and Raheem was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. They almost let Devin Reader get a comeback victory at the end of that game. They were still in a position to win the division after that win. Yeah.

He was like, I would rather not make the postseason at all than go into Tuesday and practice with this guy as my starter. That's the one thing I will agree with him on. Because at that point, it had gotten so bad. And I still do think the worst part about all this Kirk Cousins stuff is –

He is the single game passing leader in Falcons history from that dumbass Thursday night game against the Bucks where he torched him for 500 yards on Matt Ryan night. And then he immediately goes back into the cellar to play like crap for the rest of the season. And I think that's all we're going to, we're going to end it here today. I don't really have that much more. Um,

Yeah, Mina, Nate, they'll be back talking about their top football movies, top football shows. Steven, Deontay, you want to plug anything before you guys get out of here? Ring our NFL show. Come listen to us complain in the same ways that we just did about these teams. We hate football. Ring our NFL show. Replace me with Shiel, and they hate football. I'm just glad to be on, man. We'll be back after a quick ad break.

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All right, we are back and I am joined by the great, great, amazing Mina Kimes, my friend who is joining us for joining me on football 301 for the very first time. How are you doing today, Mina? It's great to see you. It's good to see you. Great, great and amazing. Wow. I'm feeling good.

I couldn't come up with any other terms. I just kept saying great, amazing, just get one higher and higher. I was trying to think some other compliment there, but it is. It's very true. So it's easy to say, thank you so much for joining me. So first time I've completed the home and away.

Oh, yeah. I've done your pod a lot. I've never been able to host you. So I'm so happy that you're over here for some sugar. Maybe I can make you some dinner, maybe a drink, everything. It's good. Good to have you on our home turf over here. Yeah. I just realized this is my first appearance on Football 301. Really enjoy what you guys are doing. Excellent podcast. Recommend it to everybody. And we are in peak off season right now, which is reflected in what we are here to talk about.

That's exactly right. I am recording this or we are recording this in May while I'm on paternity leave. Sometime in June, this will be coming out. But Mina is joining me and she just hinted it. We're doing our we're continuing our rankings. We've been doing top 10 quarterbacks receivers with the top 10 defenders.

Earlier today, we actually recorded that. And today, kind of a little right turn here. We're going to top 10 pieces of football media. That's how we're labeling it. And by football media, I'm not even considering this podcast. I mean, maybe you could. Maybe there's a podcast that might make this top 10. But TV shows, movies, documentaries, or books, kind of what we consume, what you think of, a narrative device, something, some storytelling device, or a documentary of some sort about football. Could be college, could be NFL.

Queer high school?

could be a little leak spoilers maybe pop warner for one of mine but we're gonna go through all the lists today go 10 9 8 we each give our own break it down 7 6 break it down see the differences see the comparisons gonna be a lot of fun and i thought no one better than a huge consumer of media and i mean that as a compliment because there's no one i love talking tv shows and movies and books more than me in a kind so that is why i figured you'd be a great person to have on this ranking show

I appreciate you narrowing it down to football, too, because first we talked about doing all sports and then it was just too, too much football. I think it was an interesting exercise first to come up with a list of just the stuff and then to start narrowing it down because there's been enough and particularly movies, but there aren't that many, which I think.

In movies and TV probably has to do with rights issues, right? In football. And also, it's very hard to realistically depict football more so than any other sport. And I think that is probably a challenge that prevents it from being a more prolific source of inspiration.

22 people. It's hard to hide a bad thrower of the football. Or you like fake acting a good football thrower. There's actually one movie we'll talk about here where why it's high on my list is my appreciation of the details in a surprising way. I actually have one spoiler question I have for you. Do you have any books in your top 10? I have one book in my top 10.

Okay, so I thought I would have more. And I realized a lot of my favorite sports books, none of them are about football. It's a lot of baseball, a lot of some boxing in there, but like Ball Four by Jim Boughton. Like, you know, there's some other ones in there. Charlie Hustle, I just read recently. The Last Boy, Mickey Mantle book. But like a lot of baseball books. But I didn't have any football. I don't want you to spoil it yet. But I was actually surprised that I didn't have any. Now that I think about it, I self-imposed only fiction books.

And there is a lot of there are nonfiction books, probably. I'm sure your nonfiction books about football that I love and I could have thrown in some of those. OK, so, OK, yeah, now I'm curious. All right. Well, let's let's start us off. All right. Again, we are just going to say pieces of media, rank them down, throw them out here. What's your favorite? So I'm curious what the directions you went on this. But let's start us off. I mean, what were your ten, nine and eight sports or football media pieces? OK, so.

10, 9, and 8. It's not... 10 and 8 are really childhood favorites. Good start. Good start. At 10, I have Little Giants.

Okay. Okay. I have Little Giants at 10 as well, but continue. Really? Wow. Yes. Yes. I feel like we both did our list and we were like, yeah, we can't keep Little Giants. It's such a formative movie. Yep. That's exactly what happened. I also haven't watched it in a really long time, but I'm holding off right now. We both have children who are under the age of three.

I'm holding off on watching anything a child would enjoy because I know I'm going to have to watch it all in like five, 10 years incessantly. So I'm looking forward to rewatching. I feel like it holds up per my memory of it. I feel like the humor will be better than I remember too. Like as an adult, I haven't seen it probably in 20 years, at least 25 years, but I used to watch it obsessively. And then that's like, you know, where they come up, like, that's where I learned who Bruce Smith was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I was like, I know who Madden is when I was five years old, but I'm with you that I kind of want to pound away at it once my son becomes a little bit older so I can watch a little bit more. But I'm sure it holds up. But what about nine and eight? Okay, so nine and eight. Nine, I have Ballers, the TV show, which I feel like it's a cheat to have it there because I stopped watching it after, I think, two seasons. And I think it lasted a little bit longer than that.

But I will maintain that the first two seasons were actually quite good and weirdly realistic. That's the thing. Everybody's always like, this show is so stupid. It's so like, it was like entourage football. It's the rock. And I genuinely believe for people who are in and around football, there's actually a lot of truth to that show. A lot of the themes and types of characters, the agent character, I remember is like the most accurate agent ever depicted. He is very unlike another agent who's going to appear later on my list and

Eight. Spoilers. And then eight. This is another childhood one. I threw in Remember the Titans at eight. It's on my list, but much higher. Should only be watched to me in one format. And that's on a television being wheeled into the classroom by a substitute teacher.

That's the only way to watch Remember the Titans. And when that TV wheels in, kids today have no idea. You knew you were in for a treat. Yeah, that or you go to a Bengals press conference. Yeah. And then that's how you know it's coming in. How many times would you say you saw that in school? Oh, my God. I would put it at least 10. Yeah, close. Because at least once a year from grade school through middle school. Yeah.

Yeah, I know. I'm sorry. I even think I remember I watched it. I saw it like legitimately three times throughout one year because of substitute teachers. It's a good movie. Like the characters are great. I think like the sunshine character is like probably one of the more interesting football type characters. Yeah.

That looking across all of these forms of shows and stuff that I can remember. And I think it like some of the football stuff in it is actually pretty good, too. So, yeah, those are my bottom eight, nine, 10.

Yeah, I love that. No, I'll get in more. Remember the Titans love a little bit later. So 10 was a little Giants for me. Same reason. I think some of the football stuff does hold up with it. From what I remember. Anyway, some of the jokes I still say to this day, like we gained a yard. Yeah, like, you know,

Give the ball to Johnny. I'm Johnny. Like that, like little lines like that. Icebox, all those things. Spike. Yeah, no, Little Giants is just one of those that's always going to live with me. Number nine. So I had some more real life things, if that makes sense, more documentary type things in mind. So number nine for me is a 30 for 30 doc.

I really like. And that's from Elway to Marino. From Elway to Marino. It's a great one. Yeah. Love that doc. I've seen it multiple times. I'm a big fan of the 30 for 30 stuff, not just because that is your parent company, but I really do really did like that one because it just the story tells with the quarterbacks, the names of those quarterbacks hearing from the perspectives of having the same agent.

With Elway Marino, hearing Marino's drop, and it's almost like a little mini background doc on each of those players. And just the story device that they used with each pick going one by one was really cool. So I just love that documentary. Is that your favorite football 30 for 30?

Okay, there's another one on here. Oh, there's another one on here. I don't know if it counts as a 30 for 30, though. You'll see. You'll see. And I'm curious. Yeah. No, you love it. We've talked about it before. You have a friend that directed it. But anyways, we'll continue on. Yeah, I know. Now I'm going to let you really marinate on that. I don't know if it even counts. So that's why I feel you're going to bust my balls on it. Okay, well, that means it's not the two bills. It's not the you. It's not Brian and the boss. The you is my first cut. Okay, the you is my favorite part.

Probably football 30 for 30. And I said, I was a Nebraska football fan. Yeah. Nice call. Yeah. No, that was probably my first cut. I did have it on my, like, I probably put 12 on there when I was doing this. And then like, that was probably the one that I just dropped off. And then, yeah, another one I'll say a little bit later. Number eight. And this has a lot of football detail parts better than you would think is any given Sunday. Yeah.

Way higher on my list. Okay. Okay. I actually fell a little low on this, but great movie. Got to watch it again, actually. But even as a kid growing up in locker rooms.

That actually got NFL locker rooms more head on. Like they nailed what a locker room is like more than any other movie or TV show I've ever watched. The good and the bad. So, yeah, a lot of it's exaggerated in some of it, but there's a lot more real to that than you would think. But it's on your list as well. So actually, I was. Yeah, it's it's a little bit. It's it's definitely of a moment. And some of the like directing and cinematography decisions are a little bit off putting and yeah.

You know, the performances are great. Obviously, it's two great actors, but Cameron Diaz is great in it, too. But I like it for the reason you just said, which I actually think it really captures pro football better than anything else on my list. That's fiction. So mine's all fiction. Yeah.

There is like, first of all, the way they the whole dynamic, the central plot of the movie, the older white quarterback, the young black quarterback is just something we've seen play out in such a similar fashion across the NFL over the years. And the way like so many aspects of that change and that decision and all the drama that comes with it is really accurate. I would also maintain it's funny. I don't think this is.

People always remember the Pacino speech, and I would maintain, because I rewatched this during the pandemic at some point, the sort of monologue of sorts that J.B. Fox gives to him in his house when he goes to Al Pacino's for dinner about being a Black quarterback and race and how he is like the best quarterback.

thing I've ever seen on race and football of all time. It's so well done and so well written and so well performed. And so prescient too, because this movie came out like, you know, a long time ago and it's still to me like super resonant. I was shocked when I rewatched it, how modern it felt and how much it's like stood the test of time. No, that's a great point because especially then when it came out,

I mean, they captured a feel of early aughts football better than anything. You got to remember, this was the he hate me XFL. This was the penalties. This was the throat slashing. This was it was so aggressive then, you know, like it was just I mean, yes, it's always going to be a physical sport and everything, but just the

There's a scene in that that I feel is more real than anything is when they're battling about who plays the music in the locker room. Yeah. And it's a switch between rap and just like crazy hard rock. That is more real than anyone will ever think. That is such a like, oh, my God, I know. And just the little speeches, you know, Jim Brown is a coach in that, too. He gives a little speech in that, too. There's just like little scenes. The only thing I didn't like was that the expansion team was in Albuquerque.

And I was just like, you know, that kind of takes me out of it a little bit. There is a team in Jacksonville, but, uh, you know, that took me out of it, but I will say also the team settings too, like, uh, you know, the Miami sharks and just also the, like the Dallas team, you know, all the like designs of that I thought were really cool. Cameron Diaz, his character, kind of the owner taking over, you know, the young hotshot owner kind of taking over and going, I have this, I have this, I'm forced, just all those little things are like very real, even though if it's

surreal and hyper real you know in that kind of movie so i'm glad you enjoy it as well all right we'll move on to your next couple what are seven and six on your list mina okay seven and six seven this is i don't think this is gonna be on your list i'm guessing i don't know maybe maybe it is i don't know we've never talked about this show okay uh but it is pertinent to our friendship it's the league because we are in a fantasy league

We are in a fantasy. That's a great... I actually didn't even think about that. Did you watch all the seasons of The League from start to finish? It's, I think, five seasons, if I remember correctly? Five seasons? Yeah. Did you watch the whole thing? It lasted a really long time. I watched it in real... Like, I didn't watch it as we do now, like binge it. Like, I was truly watching it week to week when it was coming out. Yeah. Yeah. Same. Right. So I just think The League...

on its face should not have worked in any way. Nobody likes to hear people talk about fantasy football. It's the thing that at the, now more Americans do it, but you know, like if you're, if you don't play and you're not familiar with it, why would you care? And it, to me, succeeded entirely on the strengths of,

The writing and the performances and the actors are all freaking incredible. Mark Duplass, Katie Asselton. I was playing out Paul Scheer. Stephen Rana Zizi, who had a weird controversy where he lied about something that happened on 9-11 and then disappeared. Nick Kroll. John LeJoy, who played Taco. And then I would argue one of the greatest comedic characters ever written on any show ever.

Raffi. Raffi. Yeah. Truly, I would put him up there with like Kenny Powers, like Baby Billy. Like he is to me that character. Baby Billy is up there too. I know. Uncle Baby Billy. I really believe the character Raffi in the League is one of the funniest TV characters of all time. And yeah. That's a good take. I just think

I almost, I don't know if that show holds up. I have not rewatched it at all, but I thought it was so funny. Um, it, it, it has more memorable scenes than you would think. Like, even as you just been talking about, I, I'm actually mad at myself. I didn't even consider it a week. Cause I love that show. Uh,

you know the dray the you know child please you know paul everything he's trying to get such a good character i mean paul cheer is so funny they and just even like little sometimes there's like humor in the details thing it's like if you know you know kind of joke like even they they had once seen one episode they open up and they're watching college football and they get mad at the guy for not one of the guys for not changing the channel quick enough

And they're like, it's college. There's a hundred games on just switch, just switch their commercial switch. And it's like a very real conversation. Cause that's exactly how it is on a Saturday. Just like, just change the game. Just there's another college game on don't watch a commercial, just a little details. That's, that's very real. I,

Yeah. Great show. It was really made by people who love football and... Yeah. Football at Seahawks fans, by the way. Except they only had a six-team fantasy league. You know, that was the only... Well, that's insane, yeah. Which they made fun of, though. They made fun of themselves for doing that throughout the year. No, that's a good one. And then they started getting player cameos and you got to see who was the...

Yeah. Got to see who's a decent actor, who's not. My guy, JJ, can stop doing this. So I still get it on him. I always remember there was an episode about how Cam Jordan and Jordan Cameron were constantly confused with each other. It was so stupid, but it was, yeah, a lot of great football jokes. Roster baiting. Oh my God. Now I want to rewatch it. Okay. I know. Now I'm like, oh yeah. Six is something I did rewatch recently.

Three years ago? Not that long ago. And that is Jerry Maguire.

Yeah. Is Jeremy Goyer on your list? It is not. Wow. It was not one of those. I didn't watch until late. Like I didn't watch until my late twenties probably. Um, I did coach with the guy that was the inspiration for Tidwell, uh, Rob Moore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Current. Uh, yeah. He's still coaching in the league right now. Former jets and Cardinals. Great. But yeah, no. Okay. Jeremy Goyer go on though. I, I, I'm actually not shocked that this one's on your list. Um,

First of all, the performances are really what make it. I think it won Cuba Gooding Jr., who later turned out to be an absolutely horrible person. Just focus on movie. Yeah, if you're wondering why Cuba Gooding Jr. is not in stuff anymore, Google Cuba Gooding Jr. But he was incredible in this movie. You see why he won the Oscar. It's a really incredible performance. It's a really nuanced performance as well. Yeah.

relationship between him and his wife and their dealings with the agent and the way they talk about guaranteed contracts and injuries. And I found, again, upon rewatching it, someone now who lives in this world, that to be very accurate. And, you know, it's funny because I was watching with my husband who's not really into football and sort

sort of the business of football. And he was asking me, like, would it actually happen this way? I was like, actually, yeah, like the way they're talking about his contract and whether or not he should roll the dice or take a lower deal and what it means. And I was like, this is actually pretty accurate. And so I think it's just nice beyond the drama of it. And it's at heart a romantic comedy, of course. But it is nice to see the business of football and being a player, I thought, represented pretty accurately. Yeah.

Even just the agency politics is really... That I thought was like, as I watched it as an adult, obviously. I probably watched it as a kid, but I was like, well, that was like, whatever. But as an adult, I was like, oh, wow, that's actually kind of real. As far as how that kind of unfolds and everything. No, that's a great point, too, because even just talking about the player-agent dynamics, everyone always thinks, oh, yeah, they're always on the same page, too. Everyone thinks, oh, they're always in lockstep. Yeah.

People fight with their agents way more than people realize. And, you know, and the whole dynamic of the agent works for the player or the person, you know, not even just including athletes here that works for it. But that's also a dynamic because they it's I need you, but I don't need you. Yeah. You know, and that can lead to the frustrations. Is the line. Do you want them to maximize their money or take the risk? And of course, he is his only client. That's the president. And I think the way the agent works

when Jerry goes out on his own, separate from the Cuba Gooding Jr., the Tim Well part, and he tries to get the number one overall draft pick. I can't remember the name of the quarterback yet.

and they lie to his face and end up going with Jay Moore's character that it's all super stuff like that happens all the time, all the time. Yeah. That's, I know even when we're talking about any given Sunday too, it's like, they're just so much of those dynamics too. It's like, these are very real. The hotshot offense coordinator. It's like the, the, all these with the old coach. And it's like, is he going to take over for him? Is he like all these dynamics are actually way more real than you would think in a fiction movie like this. So those are great choices. I,

Yeah. The league is kind of disappointing me because I'd even I'd even have that up there. And I was like, totally just went awash with that one. So those are really good. Our league doesn't have enough shenanigans for a dynasty league, too. Especially with some of the personalities in there. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's very kind of dry. You know, Jackson tries to get it going. But then, you know, and I just I just replied to him with the secretariat jockey looking back. How do you do this year? I forgot. Yeah.

Who did one this year? I don't know. I knew I wasn't in it. Yeah. I think I've been, well, I was the first, again, nobody likes listening to you talk about fantasy. I was like the number one all year long. And then all of my guys got hurt at the end. That's always fun. I don't know. I got my one.

One and a half championships in there. Didn't you have Spencer Rattler, too? I do. That was fun for a minute. Yeah, I have Carr and Rattler. I know. I'm very invested in it being a QB competition in New Orleans. You're handcuffing the Saints quarterback room. That's exactly what you want to do. I believe in Kellen Moore. I almost told Spencer Rattler when I met him at the Super Bowl that he was one of my dynasty quarterbacks. And then I remembered I have self-respect and dignity. And you're right. I know.

But now we know. Now he knows. If he listens to Football 301, sure. Definitely. But now going on to my seven and six. A couple movies here. I don't think number seven will be on your list. That's The Waterboy. It's not on my list. Yeah, this is a...

Special movie to me. I think I was nine when it came out, which is probably right when I was kind of becoming a fan of sports, especially football, because that's when my dad started coaching. Saw it with my really good friend as I was a kid named Frank and my mom. My mom took me to see Waterboy, and she loved it probably as much as I did. Really? Oh, my God.

Yeah. One of the Adam Sandler movies I just really like. Some actually football details in it. Adam Sandler is a real sports fan, and you can tell that. There's some football details in that that are better than you would think. The quarterback gives like a motion step. Like just little. I remember these things because I'm like, that's real. Because as soon as you're not. If you're not real in a sports movie to me, my brain just goes. It just shut. Like, I can't.

There's a detachment. It's like bad CGI to me. So I just want to see those little things. But The Green Notebook, Mr. Coach Klein, Vicky Valancourt. I've quoted that movie a nonstop. Captain Insano. So quotes, everything. I assume this wouldn't be on your list, though. It's not. Yeah. And I grew up. We are the Adam Sandler generation. A lot of his movies did mean a lot to me growing up. Waterboy was not one of them.

I think this might have been like, I feel like there's the Adam Sandler movies that everybody agrees are the ones, the classics that we quote constantly. And then there's the ones outside of that tier, like Little Nicky, Little Nicky, Little Nicky. We saw Little Nicky in the theater. I remember my brother and I. Yeah. So bleak.

Stop the leak. You're just a kid. We were just kids, yeah. The one where he's like a lawyer or something and he can't lie. Or no, that's Bruce Almighty. Bruce Almighty. Well, there's Mr. Deeds. Mr. Deeds is the one I think. I'm sorry. Big Daddy. Big Daddy. Oh my God. Big Daddy. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah.

Not for you. Not for me. I maybe I'll give Waterboy another shot. I'll put that on the list of I don't know if I want to expose my son to that, but yeah, we've heard a few years for that. Yeah. No, I see a Waterboy actually and someone that spent a lot of time in Louisiana growing up because I do a lot of football camps there. My uncle played for the Saints for 10 years to that.

watching Waterboy and then spending time in Louisiana. And I was like, you know, not just New Orleans. I'm talking about the bayou, you know, and actually I've been out there. I've been to Thibodeau. I've been everywhere. I've been Lafayette, all this stuff. And like actually did that. And so that's always in my brain too. And so I was like, oh, okay. You know, farmer Fran speaking Cajun, like all that. Yeah. Yeah.

Little bit another day. But yeah, no, that it's, it's one of those movies for me. All right. Moving on to number six for me. I don't even remember where my list. There it is. Another movie, another late nineties football movie. Varsity blues. Okay. This was just outside by top 10. Okay.

So this was the movie I referred to where I say the football details are way better than you would think. Yeah. Watch the running back in varsity blues. And I'm blanking on his name right now. He takes proper counter footwork.

He takes proper all the stuff, all the football aspects of that movie, even the oop-de-oop discussion. It's like all of that is actually very real. It feels actually like when I watch the football side of that, I'm actually like, okay, I believe this more. The quotes from it, I don't want you to laugh. All those things resonated with me. I watched it as a kid.

I could tell I was a little too young for it. Watched it again as a high schooler, and I was like, oh, yeah. And it's just one of those movies I just have a special affinity for. And I think maybe it was because when I was super young, it was like one of those teenager movies I really wanted to watch, but I couldn't get my hands on it. So once I was able to watch it, you know. Right. It's a 10. In 99. 99, probably, right? So we were... I was 13 or 14. I was 10. Yeah. Okay. So...

You know, for whipped cream, bikini is a formative moment for boys of that age. Fun fact about the running back, the actor who played him. I didn't know. I didn't know who this guy was, was nationally ranked as a high school football player at Montclair Prep, played college football at Stanford, signed on as a UDFA with the Kansas City Chiefs, then moved to California. So he was a legit player. I can tell. Yeah.

You know, tweeter, the little 5'6 receiver. Yeah. Okay, maybe not so much, but, you know, but being this guy that they have to ISO up every snap. Okay, no, I'm putting you in the slot, man. But no, but other than that, though, there's a lot I believe in that. No, good looking there. There was a...

there's another casting i want to say it was any given sunday was they can't they were uh i almost said recruited they what do they call tryout uh for a role casting call and they had this former running back from northwestern and the director was just like yeah you don't look like a football player they're like no this guy was all big 10 like he he was truly like really good and the guy was like

No, no, I'm sorry. I always just think that's funny. It's like legitimately the best football player in this acting group. And it was like, no, he doesn't look the part because we're running back from Northwestern. But yeah, those were my seven and six. I forget that Jesse Plemons was in Varsity Blues, by the way, as the younger runner. I don't know if you remember that. Oh my God, that's right. As...

Cross trials weren't so bad, were they? Yeah, RIP. Marcy Brews, too, reflecting on this list and reflecting on this movie, it is incredible how much football content is about the backup quarterback. It's a great role. Yeah. Just bringing that to you. And the backup quarterback is usually sensitive, usually a little smarter. Yeah. He's actually a football nerd. It was good. Talking about little details, the fact that

He was going to Florida State at that time, the late 90s. That was the team like, OK, another little detail there before he shredded his knee. All the knee stuff with the coach. That's real in high school and college, too. Hey, you're fine. That's just some scar tissue. That's very real. But also what you're talking about, the little brother. And they said, and this is so true in Texas. And I know it's not fair, but.

Kids get held back in Texas because they want them to be bigger for high school. And it's a very much a thing. I'm not like saying anything offensive here. And so that little joke, though, like the dad goes, frost droughts weren't so bad or freshman year wasn't so bad or eighth grade wasn't so bad. He got getting bigger for frost droughts. That always stuck with me because it's like, again, just a little line. It's a throwaway line, but it's very a truthful line that they threw in there. Just double the details.

But we are going to take actually our first break or our next break, I should say, and come back with our top five football media pieces. That's what we're calling it.

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All right. We are back with the top five of our football media stuff. Mina, numbers five and four on your list. What do you have? Okay. First, I would say if I had included nonfiction, I would have put a football book in here that is not on my list. Just as you were talking about at the beginning, because mine is all fiction and it would have been Collision and Little Crossers. Have you read that? That is the only one that I would have included. Okay. I

I have. If you're listening to this and you ever want to learn exactly what it's like to be inside a locker room and how teams work, it is the best thing I've ever read about football. It's a book by a New York Times writer, Nicholas Davidoff, and it's about the 2011 Jets. So Rex Ryan was the coach, and yeah, he was truly embedded with the Jets. So much so that they let him call a play in preseason. Yeah.

that's why i remember they wouldn't call and it's funny because i knew the terminology and it was like third and two and he called like a aggressive all-out blitz no i get it like just knowing the terminology and i think it worked in the book and everything no i see that that would have been the one book i would have included so that's funny i'm glad you brought that up i do have um in here but um and what a collision a low crosser is you have a crossing route if you're the whole player the linebacker you collision them and bump them underneath but uh

I think that book nails coaching relationships really well as far as like, yeah, now the coaches are actually the best coaches.

coaches they're there for personalities as well and i mean that in a good and bad way and even just talking about frustrations these guys have talking about the different personalities in there um i thought i nailed that and even just some of the other dynamics that happen between execs and coaches talking about coaching personalities like because this was happened it was written during the lockout um that happened for a little bit there and they talk about like the coaches like

Oh, I'm going to just bunk up the whole week because there's a storm coming. Just the personalities of coaches I thought I nailed. You have it right there? No, I have my number five pick, which is a book. Yes. I don't know if you've read this. It's Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk by Ben Fountain. I'm aware of it, but I have not read it. So this is fiction. For those who have not read it, I highly recommend it. It's in a movie now.

Technically, I haven't watched the movie. It's like not really a football book per se, because it's about a Iraqi war veteran who is being honored at a football game. But it is a football book because it is probably the most trenchant thing I've ever read about

football culture interplaying with American, like the theater around football and patriotism in particular and the Dallas Cowboys. It takes place at a Dallas Cowboys game. America's team. And it is beautifully written and incredibly incisive and...

It's not a football book, but it is a football book. And it says a lot about football as a business and about like the propaganda around it. So I highly recommend it if no one's read it.

Yeah. Yeah. Like the culture of football, but not so much. Yeah. Around football, I should say, you know, the, the, the after effects of everything. No, I love that. I remember the movie I knew as a book, I have not read it. Um, I got the gist of what maybe it was possibly about through the trailers of the movie. So that's a really good one. Uh, what was your number four? Okay. Four is it's, it's either good or so bad. It's good. Can you guess what it is? Yeah.

Is it good or it's so bad it's good? Is that Hard Knocks? No, I didn't think of Hard Knocks. I could have picked, the Jets Hard Knocks season is the best Hard Knocks season of all time. That would be the season I would pick. Also another Rex Ryan. Also Rex Ryan related. Everything around Rex Ryan is entertaining. Okay, a football movie that's so bad, I think it's great. Draft Day? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's bad. It is. It is so bad. It's just bad to me. I'm sorry. It is so bad. The writing is insane. There are... Some of the writing is so bad that I actually haven't memorized some of the worst lines. Like... Oh, so this is truly like a schlock for you. Yes. I mean that complimentary. It is gross. Good schlock. It is just ridiculously fun. I think it's so funny. Sometimes, again, inadvertently. Like there's...

a part where Chadwick Boseman, Bonte Mack is driving from his daughter's gymnastics class. And he's talking to, I don't know if it's Kevin Costner is Asian or what. And he's like, he just took my daughter tumbling. I better not tumble in the draft. Or there's a part where, uh, Kevin Costner and his, uh,

his girlfriend's dad or whatever are at a water park and he's like yeah he's like talk about a slide and I'm like what is that I might be misremembering this it also the Seahawks are the villains it's like the New York Post wrote it the Seahawks are the villains in Draft Day and I know the New York Post and the opening scene they show

the what is now Lumen Field. And I saw it with Pablo years ago when this movie came out, which is like 20 years ago now, 15 years ago. No, 15, I think. No, it's 10. And tried to start a Seahawks chant in the audience, which was about 10% full.

And Pablo was so mad at me. Anyways, it's a ridiculous movie. It's really funny. It's launched a thousand memes. I will watch it in its entirety anytime I come across it on TV. Drafted. It was a one and done for me. Saw it once, never again. I told you, like, anything...

My brain just shuts off. It's the uncanny valley. It's like, no, this would happen. I hate all of this. Meanwhile, I'll watch water boy. There's no, yeah. The other thing about draft day is it's so illogical. Like everything he does makes no sense. Everything about the movie is completely illogical. Like we've been talking about, even talking about water boy and the league. We're like, this,

is kind of accurate, right? Drafting is not accurate at all. It is... And they have the official license and Ian Rappaport. It's hilarious because they were really trying to be accurate. Yeah. Yeah, there's just so many of the scenarios don't make sense.

Jennifer Garner's job makes no sense what she like nothing there's a scene in a scene where she just eats a bag of chips for lunch that makes no sense nothing about draft day makes sense but it's great probably because they got a tidbit that they are so busy that they can barely eat and all they have is a bag of chips literally sitting in a cafeteria eating a bag of chips that she like anyways whatever it's a very bizarre movie and it's in your top five I love it that's how much you love that shock to me it's so bad it's good

Oh, no, that's yeah. I'll always go to your birthday party. So don't worry. You don't have to worry about that forever.

It does. No, I don't. And that's the thing is I never have to rewatch it because people remind me every draft season. Everyone's like, oh, I'm rewatching this. And it's like, okay, go for it. My five and four. And actually we clarified this before the show because we want to make sure that they were separate. I have Friday night lights, the movie, and then Friday night lights, the TV show. That's five and four. I really liked the movie. I also read the book in high school as

as well that this was based on. But the movie, Billy Bob Thornton, again, little details, things like some of the darkness, I would say with the movie and some of the like, yeah, this isn't all glory. This isn't all. There's a lot of bad that comes with all this and not everyone has a perfect home life and

Um, even just like, I love the scene with the quarterback and quiz by his mom, like, you know, just little things like that, uh, going against the really tough team, the really good team at the end and just the, how that shot. Um, I thought some of the football scenes are really good, uh, which also does it for me. I love Billy Bob Thornton as an actor that also helps. And I actually believe him as a.

Kind of high school coach in that setting as well and his demeanor in it, too. And just those details. I should rewatch this one. I really like it. The signs on the lawn, just all those types of things. It's like very it feels real more than even the TV show does. But the TV show's narrative is just so good. And some of the stories, that's why the TV show gets the nod in totality.

but it's just, I really liked the movie even more than most. I actually surprised at how high, but as I kind of kept going, I'm like, man, that's a movie that always sticks with me. Explosions in the sky for music as well from the movie. There's a lot to like with that. I just, and just how it was shot. That's what just sticks with me. It's almost those dark shades. It's shot throughout the whole time where it feels like,

Like, it feels like someone going like that last game when they lose almost feels like someone is going through a nightmare, like just how they did the lighting and everything where you're recreating this bad, like this, this losing scene and everything. And then just continuing on the TV show, or you mentioned Jesse Plemons and everything, just the acting, some of the stories of that.

Um, some details in football with that. I love the plots as well. Coach Taylor, all these things with that show, the politic politics that happen, um, in that show, which is very real with the high school sports, especially probably in Texas, you know, going to the new school, um,

Having the young quarterback hotshot dealing with the dad, those types of things. I just really resonated with me. So Hard Knocks or I'm sorry, Hard Knocks, Friday Night Lights movie. Then at five, Friday Night Lights TV show at four for me. But I know you are a fan as well. But you said you have not read the book, though. I have not. I own it somewhere, but I never read it. I guess I was just like, I've seen the movie. I've seen the show. I'm like, Friday. The movie just finished outside the top 10 for me.

I was going to have it on list and then I just kept bumping it out just because I never have a desire to rewatch it. And I think a lot of that is because the series just overtook it. So spoiler alert, I have a series number one football thing ever made. That's my number one. Yeah. And I think that, first of all,

Okay. There's a lot to say about it. On its own, the pilot is the single best piece of football media to exist. It's so good. It's just everything about it. It'll stick with me the rest of my life like that. Yes. It's like a core memory almost. The way it's shot in Peter Berg, who created the series or show ran it or whatever, drew

directed the pilot and it's it's just truly beautifully done and the performances are amazing kyle chandler is obviously incredible throughout but in that episode he's just like stunning honestly um i mean it created so many launched so many careers found so many actors and actresses there's so many i can't think of a tv show that has a higher hit rate for making me care about people um

Yeah. Like so many of them, whether it's obviously catch handler and Connie Britain, who are just unbelievable in it to the main characters, you know, Zach Guilford is Matt Saracen, um,

You know, Smash, Landry, all of it. And then they pulled off the impossible, which is they Saved by the Bell and New Classed the show and it worked. And that never happens, right? Never. I mean, it's insane that they completely turned it over and flipped it in the final two seasons and that the final two seasons were great. And there's a million reasons for that.

one of which is they found Michael B. Jordan. They didn't find him. He was in the water. That helps. Yeah, having him as your main guy certainly helps. But it's incredible just re-watching it. There's so much high school football stuff that feels so accurate. The football is really the least accurate part about all of it because it's just like a lot of things come down to Hail Marys. But...

Or running the ball on like third and 12 with running clock and stuff like that. But yeah, I'll ignore that. I'll ignore it. There's a few episodes you're like, ooh. And obviously they had, there's, you know, some bad characters. And of course, everyone remembers season two, She'll Not Be Spoken Of, the plot line. Yeah, a little side murder just for fun. Just a little side murder. The characters, Santiago, Buddy Garrity, one of the greatest television characters of all time, though. But I just think,

The hit rate for making me care so much. And like I cried like watching this show multiple times, which I'm not like that person. But it is. Yeah. Like just so moving. And I love it. It's like comfort food for me. But it's like also good. So it's really good. I got to. So I'd watched the first episode.

Three seasons and then never saw seasons four and five I got kind of away from it and then my wife and I got to watch all of it recently And watch all five seasons. I seasons four and five it was like oh I get it like I really liked the show and I like appreciated and respected it and then it was like I've watched those seasons Michael B Jordan you're talking about I just love that plot of building up the program You're like recruiting kids teaching them discipline teaching them how to practice it's

And yeah, there's a couple scenes, but there's no, it's never like heavy handed either where it's like, there's nothing too like

syrupy thick if that makes sense like the heavy the the stuff that hits hard it's it's it's earned you know there's no there's no like you were talking about you're invested there's no cheapness to it no it's all earned my favorite episode of all time is actually uh season three when smash who stays back after he has a brutal injury who's the running back and you know he's kind of like

Not a caricature in the first couple seasons, but, you know, he's like this kind of ridiculous. And then he goes through it and it's so earned when he gets the tryout and he gets the call at the end. And the episode where he shows up at Coach Taylor's house to tell them that he's getting in the car and driving to college. Like, I literally weep every time I see it.

And coach, during the tryout, when Kyle Chandler, coach, oh my God, when he's, I think it's A&M they go to, because they have, is it Jimbo? I'm trying to remember what college it was. I think A&M's right. It's not...

uh what's his name is leach is in the show but it's not mike leach the pirate thing that's a different scene i can't remember which coach was cameo by the way the mic yeah yeah but he's supposed to have the tryout and he goes and the i can't remember which coach it was doesn't let him try out and coach walks coach walks into the field and he gives he like tells him like if you don't like you're gonna forever be the person who missed out on him or whatever i cried watching that too and

At the end, when, you know, the way the series ends, when he asks her to please take him to Philadelphia. I mean, it's also the best portrayal of a football marriage ever. And maybe marriage ever on TV. No, that's as a coach's kid. No, I think people don't realize how much the wives, the partners have.

on these coaches. And I mean that in a great way. How much of they are the backbone of this? And the sacrifice. The sacrifice. You have to move so much. You have to do so much. You are... You're in the stands if your team's not doing well. You're hearing what every fan is saying. And then you have to deal with it with a smile. Because you can't do anything as well. And you have to be a professional. You know, you have to be... You're just... And...

quote unquote, people just think it's the wife. Some of these people in college, especially college and high school, they are huge figures in these programs, huge figures. And so I love that because she's such a strong woman and they kind of like just show that, that she has as much opinions that matter as much as the coach and the ones that actually come out as true as well too. So no, it's as a,

My mom has a very strong personality. I've seen this dynamic happen. So it's like, I just really appreciate that partnership and that relationship that they have because it's very real. It's never perfect. And I like that. There's always just something a little off with it. And I mean that in a good way. Ups and downs. Yeah. Yeah. It's so great. It's such a good show. How is this not your number one? Come on. How is it four? After I'm talking about it, are you regretting not putting in your top three?

It should have been my top three. I should have probably swapped out for number three, which I'll talk about in a sec. But yeah, it should have been in my top three. But one and two are really hard for me to come off of. But so before before I do that, what's here? Okay, so F&L is one. Two was Any Given Sunday, which I already talked about. And the only one I haven't talked about is three, which is I put Rudy there.

Oh, Rudy, really? Yeah. I never thought, I didn't picture you as a Rudy person. It's problematic and probably untrue. And Rudy himself is like, not to again continue doing, he's like a penny stock swindler. Rudy likes himself some Rudy. But it just hits, man. It's like. I get it. It just hits. And it is kind of similar to Remember the Titans, a very childhood evocative movie.

It's one my family loved to watch together. And it's also just like, you know, the dream. It doesn't have like, I would say, the complexity of some of these other pieces of art that we're talking about in terms of like showing the ups and the downs, the dark side and how things are conflicted. But it is like the true underdog story that like everybody dreams of. I don't know when they're a kid. So I just I think Sean Astin is great in it.

Sean Essendon's great, period. Big Sean Essendon guy. Love me some Sam Wise. Love me some- Rudy not being on your list at all is crazy. Why? Because I'm Irish? I don't know. I think football people don't like Rudy.

I never Rudy's never been for me. I don't know. It's just not it was not a movie I grew up on that. And the other blind spot I would say I have for me, not that I haven't seen, I've seen it multiple times. Hoosiers is the other one, which I consider of the same ilk. Yeah. You know, but I those I just didn't grow up on those movies. Maybe my my dad is just didn't watch those movies. So, you know, like it was just one of those. I never had that five year old, seven year old, nine year old where I was watching over and over and over. That was horrible.

little giants and movies I shouldn't have been watching that were violent and stuff, you know? So, no, but it's a classic for a reason. And even just, it's one of those where,

The tropes get created because of Rudy. You know, Rudy started kind of those what we consider classics now. Rudy, when Rudy was doing that in the 80s or whatever movie that year came out, 89, 90, somewhere around there. Whenever it came out like that was one of those first movies doing it. You also got Jon Favreau in it. Got Vince Vaughn. Yeah. Vince Vaughn at running back at six five running back, which, you know, I don't know. You're always like, oh, Vince Vaughn is in this.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Have we done your, any of your top three? I have not done my top three. Any of them? No, no, no. We have the, we have, we have number three. Number three is remember the Titans. Okay. And so that's the one I regret that haven't even come up on my list.

Well, one way I've kind of been around the bush, I'll say number one, which is hard knocks. Okay. I didn't think of hard knocks. I would have, I would have ranked hard knocks if I had. Yeah. Yeah. Hard knocks is just a lock for me. Yes. There's bad seasons, all that, but the good of hard knocks is as good as anything. Still like, no, maybe the, you've already mentioned the jet season and I literally have my notes. I said, particularly the jets years with Rex Ryan, let's go eat a goddamn snack. Yeah.

I had to go rewatch that because my first cover story for ESPN the magazine was a profile of Darrell Rivas when he returned to the Jets in 2015 or whatever. And I spent time... By the way, Rivas, probably my favorite player that I've ever profiled to spend time with. Really? Interpersonally, yeah. Really like him. Very... People love him at Pitt, so that's all I know him from. He's just...

so authentic. Like he is, there's just no bull. Like the story was about how he would go down as like one of the greatest mercenaries to ever be in the NFL financially. And, and,

I really came to the conclusion it was because he truly does not give a shit what people think. Like, he doesn't read. He was like, yeah, I'm not going to read your story. And I'm like, he actually is not going to read my story, which is not true of a lot of players who claim to not pay attention or care. Anyway, sorry. So I went back and watched, but his holdout back in, you know, the first time. 11, 12, whatever. Was a big storyline. So I went back and rewatched it. It was very hard to find. First of all, old hard knocks are, like, impossible to get. And it's so good.

good. It is probably one of the best nonfiction pieces of sports television ever made is that season. It's because they showed everything. Yeah. And it warts and all, and I get it. Like they have final cut and other seasons. Shoot. I was around with the Falcons in 2014. We cut everything. Yeah. I don't want to speak out of turn, but I think at some point they got that ability. Yeah.

Yes. Yes. Right. Yeah. And it must have. So it must have happened right before that. Cause I'm trying to think who happened right before the fat, right before the Falcons had to do it is when they changed everything. Okay. These teams have to do it. These teams have to, okay, we'll allow the final cut. I want to say that was like a year or two before that was 2014. So whoever's right before that, the jets, Aaron Rogers, hard knocks. Oh God. I mean, the, the,

I almost said something real bad there. I'll say it to you offline. Let's just say it's very positive. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, yeah, that Aaron Rogers propaganda film. Yeah. It's just, yeah, but, but it's, it's gotta be tough.

Yeah, it does. Yeah. But those Jets ones, the Ravens ones back in the day, those are the ones that are burned in my brain. I mean, there's even some, I mean, the Lions one was fun recently. The Browns one was actually pretty good too. Browns one was interesting. Again, it was like, you guys have Final Cut? Yeah. Let that out there? Okay. All right. Go for it, Hugh Jackson. Yeah, Hugh Jackson.

Yeah. I, I just think when it hits, it doesn't nothing. The jet seasons are the epitome of it. The Rex Ryan jets years, the nothing hits better than that. Like just even the little jokes, like when they, the rookie, you know, rookie talent shows like that's what, again, being with a team and maybe that's the, it scratches that itch for me where I'm like, I, cause I missed that, you know, I missed those aspects of being with the team. So,

So I just always loved that, the good of that. Even like Rex Ryan naming James Conner the Terminator, the fullback.

Like just that's exactly how it works in a football room, like our football team, like a nickname happens and that's the guy's nickname now. And it's just a running joke. And I don't know, just those little things where it's a coach's favorite or something like that. This undrafted guy has to make it. Some of those guys get overly hyped because we learned their names and everything, but it's very real. And it's kind of cool to root for guys. See you guys coming out of nowhere, see behind the scenes on some dynamics and everything.

Lauren Ryan Tannehill doesn't know what the NFL divisions are. You know, you know, dolphin season was kind of underrated too. Yeah, I do. I remember watching that one very clearly. Yeah. Yeah. That was the one when I was a GA at Pitt. I remember that one pretty specific or pretty vividly, but yeah, hard knocks is my number one, my number two though. And this is the one I almost kept off because it's tech. It's like not really all about football. Oh, you alluded to this. Yeah. Your friend directed it.

It's won awards. Oh, OJ. OJ Made in America. Okay. Yeah. That's cheating a little bit. It is about football. No, I mean, if we're doing nonfiction, it's a doc. It's a documentary. There's a lot early on about USC and the Buffalo Bills days, obviously, before, you know, things happen. Marcus Allen's stuff's really good. Yeah. So, yeah.

It's one of the greatest pieces of media I've ever watched. And so I kind of it feels like a cop out to include it here because almost feels like it's better than just a quote unquote football list. No, but it's fair. He's an important figure in football. And like, you can't really talk about America and football in the last 50 years without including O.J. Simpson. So and I just think it's just.

It's so wonderful as a document, not obviously the matter, but just the storytelling of it, the detail it goes into. It's again, one of the greatest things I've ever watched. So I just felt like I had to include it here and to even make my number one spot. Definitely about football. I actually think a lot of people who were born after or were really young during his peak as a player learned about how good he was at football from this documentary because none of it

would have played out the way it did, both in terms of, like, obviously the crime and how it captured the public imagination, but also his fame, if not for how good he was at football and how special of a player he was. And I think the film does a great job of showing that. I love the college stuff, too. That was actually really fun for me to watch because I didn't remember... You know, I didn't know it as well. Yeah, no, O.J.'s a great pick. That it's...

Definitely, it's definitely the best football doc. It's like its own little thing. Yeah. And watching the Bills highlights with him. And I had heard, I was with a scout one time. We were scouting David Johnson when he was coming out of Northern Iowa. And the scout, he was an old scout named Billy Devaney. He was the GM for the Rams for a minute. He goes, I'm not trying to say this guy's one for one. I'm just saying his running style is just like OJ's.

And then, you know, I didn't watch OJ. I was, well, I was at that time, 24. And, you know, of course, no OJ, knew he went to USC, all that stuff. But then power of YouTube and everything. Yeah. I was like, God damn, Billy, you're exactly right. Yeah, yeah. I've never heard that. And I'm like thinking about David Johnson. I'm like, yeah, like the gate. The kind of like galloping long style. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know that's stuck in my head. David, David had better hands than OJ, but it was, but yeah, that, that, that documentary is already stuck with me and also kind of, kind of related because it was the Bronco chase 30 for 30 doc June 17th, 1994. Oh yeah. You ever seen that one? Yeah. I love that. I know it exists. Yeah. I didn't watch that. Yeah. It's, they don't, there's no narrative or there's no voiceover throughout the whole documentary. They tell the whole thing through TV. It's almost like you're flipping. It's almost like you're flipping through TV channels.

And it just, everything that happened in sports on June 17th, 1994, you know, it's like, yeah, a whole bunch of events happened on that day. So yeah, that, that's another doc I wanted to throw in there. All right, Mina, your list, 10 little giants, nine ballers. That one surprised me. I'm not going to lie. That's embarrassing after talking about OJ to be like ballers.

Well, now that's what you're like. Oh, my fiction stuff. I was like, oh, yeah, I got some real ones in here. Number nine ballers. Number eight. Remember the Titans. Number seven, the league. Number six, Jerry Maguire. Number five, long halftime walk. Oh, yeah. Billy Lins. Okay. Number four, draft day. Number three, Rudy. Number two, any given Sunday. That's a great pick. Number one, Friday Night Lights, the TV show for me, Little Giants.

From Elway to Marino, Any Given Sunday, number seven, The Waterboy, six, Varsity Blues, number five, Friday Night Lights, the movie, number four, Friday Night Lights, the TV show, number three, Remember the Titans, number two, OJ, Made in America, number one, Hard Knocks. Mina.

Thank you so much for joining me today. This was a lot of fun and you brought your 102 mile an hour fastball, which I knew you would. So thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me on. This was fun. I mean, now I've got to rewatch some of these. I know. I know. I.

I definitely have to. I want to watch any given Sunday again. I think that's on the weekend viewing list. Yeah. No, I have good memories of that one. I can't wait to rewatch that one again, even with the eyeball scene and everything. Also, and producer Stone will appreciate this. Go Mariners. Go M's. Go M's. I don't know when this comes out.

Oh, I know. Shoot. When we record this, they're coming off a sweep. So good job, Mariners. But it feels good right now. So we'll see when this comes out. But yes, Mina, you can find her at Mina Kimes, find her ESPN, everywhere doing amazing, great things. She is the best. I'm Nate Tice. You can find me at Nate underscore Tice on Twitter, Nate Tice on Blue Sky. Subscribe to us, follow us, rate us, five stars, please. Pretty please. Not five stars, just five.

yell at me. Watch us on YouTube, on the Yahoo Sports YouTube channel. Thanks to everyone behind the scenes. Thank you to everyone for listening. See you guys next time.

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