Conflict Expert: Simple Frameworks to Make Hard Conversations Easier (With Jefferson Fisher)
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You set yourself up for failure when you try to begin with the pleasantry, the small talk, the soft stuff. So how was your day? It's great. Oh, yeah, it was good. Oh, did you see John today? And then you go, exactly. If you haven't heard the end of it, you haven't heard the heart of it. I've never considered that, dude. That's a fascinating take, Jefferson. I'm going to have to stew on that one. What in the world is going on? This is John.

The Dr. John Deloney Show. So grateful that you are with us. And dude, you are in for it today. You're in for it today. Today is a special, special day for me. I sit down with my friend. We're running it back with the great and powerful and almost all-knowing Jefferson Fisher.

millions and millions and millions of people follow him on the internets. He is a licensed attorney in the Houston area in South Texas, and he's got a thriving practice. And a few years ago, he got in his car and started making helpful little notes for people to use on how to communicate well. And it

It exploded. And we had him in 2023. It was the top episode of the year. And he has a brand new book coming out called The Next Conversation. It's an outstanding, outstanding book, how to argue less and talk more. One of the most common questions I get on this show is how do we communicate better with our spouses, with our kids, with our romantic partners, with our bosses, with our friends, with our neighbors?

Man, in this conversation, we get into some details on how to have hard conversations. We also do a lightning round where we take your questions that y'all sent in via social media and we answer those. It's an amazing conversation. I walked away, I learned a lot and I can't wait for you to check it out. So buckle up, pull out a pen and a paper and enjoy my conversation with my great friend, Jefferson Fisher.

I want to talk about the four most popular questions we get on the show. Oh, okay. And there's like five years of me rattling off answers. And I'm going to hand it over to you because I don't think I'm doing a great job because I keep getting the same questions over and over. Yeah, giving me five seconds. Got it. All right. So these are four common calls I get and their challenges here.

All right, so I'm going to read you how it comes into our team. All right. All right. So people email in or they call and leave a long message. Yeah. Most people I've seen, like, they call in and you're listening to it on headphones. Exactly. There you go. So here's one that somebody wrote in. My husband treats me like a maid. I'm a stay-at-home mom, which my husband sees as being unemployed, so he's constantly bossing me around and making messes everywhere with the expectation that I should automatically clean him up because, quote, unquote, I don't have a job.

Now he's complaining I treat him like a roommate and I'm not affectionate enough. But the truth is I don't feel affection towards him anymore. He just feels like a mean boss. And so for me, the meta question here is how do I say what I want or I need, what I need without sounding horrible? One of the biggest mistakes I see, especially in marriage dynamics, is when somebody says,

We need to talk. No, I mean, you can text that. Yeah. And nobody likes to get that text. That's right, right, right. We're officially in a fight now. Officially, yeah, you officially hate me, whatever that is. So even if you're in the same room, you're texting, you say, we need to talk, period. It automatically goes, somebody's dead, or I might as well be. It's going to be me here in a little bit. What happened? And you're always looking for the worst thing. There is a sense of tension here.

when you use the phrase need to. It's like, you need to go sit down. You need to go do X, Y, and Z. And all we do is get defensive. Well, what you need to do is... And so we want to match that behavior. And I feel like it's a way of asserting dominance sometimes. It's like, you need to go sit down. You need to go watch your mouth. And so anytime you get that, you want to make sure you don't lead with any kind of phrase that says...

we need to, or I need to talk to you. It's going to immediately draw the spikes. Instead, you need to begin with, can we? Can we talk about something that's important to me? That's an invitation. Now we say the rules apply to both of us. When you say, can we? So if it is, let's say for this particular caller, can we talk about something that's important to me? That's number one. Number two, you need to tell them where that conversation is going. I feel like particularly with males, we just look for

Is there a bear in the bush? Like what's going on? I need to know where is this conversation going? Because if I don't, we're going to cut in, try to fix it, try to solve it, try and like, oh no, this is what you mean. And this pal says, no, no, no, no, that's not my point. Hear me out. Wait, wait, wait. And we get impatient. Like, can you just get to your point? Instead, it needs to be, and I'm telling you this because I'm

I'm feeling unheard here, or I want to walk away from this conversation feeling more understood. You just need to give them a heads up of where that conversation is going. Because too often, we don't know what we're talking about until we're already talking.

Yes. And then we end up saying stuff that you can't get back. Exactly. Yeah. You don't know what to say until you're already talking. And that's when you go to, no, no, give me a second. I'm still figuring it out. You know, no, no, that's not my point. So anytime you're trying to land the plane, it's like you're just trying to find the runway when that happens. It typically is going to make the conversation go south.

And then three is you need to try and get their buy-in into it. So it would be, can we talk about something that has been weighing on my heart here for a while? And I'm not asking you to solve anything. I just need you to hear me out. Can we do that? Does that sound okay? Is now a good time? And then when you get their buy-in in it, now you're in the conversation because people don't like to break their word. And if your husband says...

I don't care. You got a bigger issue. Yeah. Oh, then you have a way bigger issue. You got to solve this thing. A way bigger issue than the conversation itself. That's not a communication issue. That's not a communication issue. That's a relationship issue. Do people, I've been wrestling with this when it comes to marriage and intimacy. Okay. And get your opinion on it because it's adjacent to this.

I feel like I can weaponize the word need versus want. Right. So like one of my challenges with like the five love languages is when I identify a way that it feels good that somebody shows me they love me, then I tell you, you need to do it like this. Right. Versus what I think is a more vulnerable approach is I want,

I want you to do it like this. Yeah. Because if I say I need to, I've put you on the block. Yeah. If I say I want to, you can go, I don't want that. And that's a vulnerable thing, right? Yeah, absolutely. Is that right? I'm toying with it. No, there's nothing wrong with that. Using needs can be weaponizing in a way. So this is one of my needs. Mm-hmm.

needs are more personal than they are an obligation. - You can't argue them. - Exactly. And so a lot of the time you can be even more, and people have problems

saying to the other person, describing their needs, telling their needs, asserting their needs, rather than using, I like using preferences. It does the same exact thing. So I prefer if we did this, I prefer if we do that. It's a more indirect way of saying it, but it's just as strong. Because if I say need, then it goes back into that whole thing of

dominance. That's it. Then you have to, right? And if you don't, then you don't love me. You got it. Yeah. Yeah. Then it's why do you hate me? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. Um, here's another call. My wife is constantly accusing me of cheating on her with no logical reason. Ooh, that's a tough one. Other than I always have my phone on me. She has my location, goes through my phone on a regular basis. I'm at my wits end. Don't, don't know what to do. Should I take a stand or continue to put up with the disrespect?

And the bigger question is, how do you react to somebody who's trying to gaslight you? Gaslighting is something that can absolutely drive you insane because that's where there are cues in you. Right, right. The way I like to handle gaslighting is a phrase that I use all the time. And this is what I teach is I see things differently.

I see things differently. And here, if he's already opened up his entire life to this human. They've got a deeper pathology. There's a much deeper issue that's engaged in that than just gaslighting. But when you handle somebody who's gaslighting you, their whole thing is to kind of

use a cat with a laser pointer. Like they just want to point you to different places in hopes that you don't address the real issue. So they want to continue to make you chase. It's kind of a, they'd like to dig a hole.

And you have to go, that's not what happened. And you start filling it back up. No, that's not how it happened. And they go, oh yeah, you did. You remember this? And then you go, no, no, no, no. Don't you remember? And that's the game as they continue to use it. If you've ever had somebody that you know the truth went a certain way, you knew the past events went a certain way, and instead...

What they're doing is trying to go back in time and go, oh, no, don't you remember? You said this and then I said that. And that's when, you know, that's not what happened. They're controlling the narrative to try and play to their best favor. So often the biggest move you can make is no move at all. And that is just to be still. I see things differently. I understand you disagree with me. Do you wait for an invitation there to expound?

Yes. Because I would feel tempted to say, I see things differently, and then boom, immediately give the counter. But I feel like I'm playing, it's just a sophisticated way of trying to fill that hole back up. You got it. That's all it is. So it just needs to be, I see things differently. Or you can disagree with me.

I mean that right there is-- - And then just let it hang. - Just let it hang. You just stop. Because that's much more powerful than, that's not what happened. Don't you remember, and you're trying to like prove it? All you're doing is just giving them more strength to make a knot with. Instead, if you just say, you're free to disagree with me, period, pause, nothing. What are they gonna do? They have to go find another hole to dig. And then, you know, they're just gonna get tired. - Third one, how do I get my husband

And we can edit this out if you don't want to go this way. I just get all these kind of calls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How do I get my husband to try new things in the bedroom, to switch things up, to spice things up? Usually it's the opposite problem. It's the man saying, we never do X, Y, or Z. I want my wife to be open to new things. But for us, it's the opposite. I'm not sure what to do. I feel like we're at a stalemate. He seems very closed off and isn't just really interested in me anymore. And so the bigger question here is,

I think it's two questions. One, how do you approach a topic with your partner that's highly sensitive, that you know you're pushing on a button? You've gained 40 pounds. You're not coming home anymore, and you and I both know what that means. I want to try some things romantically. And then I guess the second question is, I guess reverse, how do I bring up a topic that I know, like, tears are right here or that heartbreak is right here, but I got to put on the table? Yeah.

So the answer really for both of those is almost the same. Okay. You set yourself up for failure when you try to begin with the pleasantry, the small talk, the soft stuff, the fluff. When you can come into the conversation and let's put it in...

Let's put in a scenario, maybe not in the bedroom context, but let's say you have something sensitive that you're going to say. And you begin with, you know, so how was your day? That's great. Oh yeah. I was like, good. Oh, did you see John today? Oh, that's wonderful. And then you go, and then exactly. And then what happens is you hear this. Did you hear John today? That's great. Oh, that's crazy. Um, so listen, um, you know, I had right there, that's a

That's it. That's the transition. You heard it. So listen, and then all of a sudden everybody knows the temperature in the room has gone down. Now it's, okay, where is she heading with this? I'm feeling like there's something that is hidden from me. You're trying to get to the point of, I want to bring up this sensitive issue. All they hear is, I'm so bad, I'm so bad. I need to get defensive right now. I'm not so bad. So they need to put up, put up, put up. Instead, you need to just lead with the hard talk.

So if it is, this is what I like to say. Let me put it in some business context real quick. So if somebody's calling me with bad news, like on my team, they are to say, you're not going to like this. Like right out of the gate. Yes. As soon as I answer it, you're not going to like this. I go, okay, what do we got?

going to deliver it to me. When you can say things like, this is going to be a difficult conversation. This is going to be hard to talk about. This is going to be uncomfortable for me to bring up. This is going to be, I'm going to be vulnerable telling you this. Whenever you can just try and prime the conversation with exactly what it's going to be, this isn't going to be fun for us to talk about. And

Then you get into the conversation rather than trying to come at it indirectly with a whole lot of fluff where it's just going to work up their anxiety because they don't know where you're going throughout all of it. So that would be the biggest takeaway. So if you're saying something that you want to have like a very sensitive discussion, let's say it is a...

about things that happen in the home, then I would prefer that you lead very much with the hard intro and that is, this is something that's going to be important to me. That's something that's going to be vulnerable for us to talk about. And I'm telling you about it because I know you want me to be vulnerable with you. Yeah. I often find in relationships, especially romantic relationships, that the phrase, we need to work on our communication,

is proxy for they're not doing what I want. Yeah, when they say we, it's usually like you got a mouse in your pocket. He needs to work on his communication. Exactly, yeah. Or how do you help the person in this case? She already feels like an oddball. Right. She already feels like there's something wrong with her, right? And so that makes the conversation more personally sensitive. And she's not getting the answer that she wants. At some point, it feels like

oh i just need to say it in a different way right how do you teach somebody to exhale and say no you got the answer that you got yeah it's hard to teach um often it is the idea that you have to leave enough room in that conversation for what they're not saying often you have people who will very much tell you the truth but it's in the silence of their words that's the real answer that they they could say something yeah like are you cheating on me

Exactly. There's a difference in a pause versus of asking the question that comes after, you know, where were you last night?

And there's a 10 second pause. Right. They didn't say anything. You know. But they said a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that silence there, it may be the absence of words. It's not the absence of communication. Yeah. And so anytime that it is more of the question of what are they not saying. And if it's something very vulnerable, another technique is to really just prime the room, prime the conversation. This is going to be something that is sensitive for me. Yeah.

And they're going to either engage with you or not. But if somebody feels like they're the odd person out and they're looking for the answer they're not getting, that's a much deeper relationship issue that communication is not going to solve. Yeah. I think that may be the magic is trying to find that balance between I'm not communicating in an effective way versus I don't want to hear what the reality, the truth here is. And so I'm going to keep

going back and going back and going back hoping for a different hope for a different answer yeah praying for that may just be grief right like yeah like we don't have a psychology culturally for for grief right of course yeah and I also feel that there are people who are in this same type of position and they don't know what answer they're looking for they

they don't know the ultimate question of what they want answered. Is that because they don't know or they can't handle that answer? Both. Okay. I think some of it is they just know it's a feeling. They don't know for a fact. And so they actually don't know the final question of what's the answer that I'm looking for here. They just want to feel a certain way. So most of the time, whenever you find yourself in the same argument,

If you haven't heard the end of it, you haven't heard the heart of it. It's just going to continue to go around because you're not hitting that root cause. You've got a great picture in this book that I'd never seen before, and I love the way it looks. And it's about something different, but I think it relates here. Because really what this person is asking is...

is can I stay married to somebody who's not romantically interested in me? Right. Can I stay in this? Yeah. We have an 11-year-old and a 14-year-old. We've been married almost two decades. Is this going to be the rest of my life? That's the question they're asking themselves. And they keep putting that on the other person. Am I going to stay with you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You help me. Yeah. You have a graph in here where it talks about when somebody asks you something, saying maybe,

And it has discomfort. Yeah. But then the discomfort just goes indefinitely until this thing happens. Right. And when I saw that, I started laughing because I'm so guilty of saying yes to a speaking event and then being mad for the next two months at you for asking me. And I said yes. Right. But then you had the next picture was saying no and having discomfort high and then falling off. Exactly. And there's something about you're going to get the answer eventually.

- Should we stay married? - Yes. - And if you keep looping like this, you've been married 17 years, it may be 30 years when this thing finally dissolves. - Exactly. - And so you've lost almost 15 years of your life. - Right. - Just. - Waiting. - Right. - Waiting. - And so how do you teach somebody to get to the question they're actually asking? - That takes a lot of inner work of writing it down. - What do I, yeah. - I mean, that's just, it's plain and simple. There's a difference between. - Distilling. - Keeping it in your head and actually getting it on paper.

because that that's going to make it much more tangible of what am i asking for what is the question i need this person to answer rather than what is the feeling i can convince myself that they're giving me and it's a big big difference every time i've never considered that dude that's a fascinating take jefferson how often we go into a conversation especially a difficult one or potentially difficult one

And the answer is secondary. Yeah. I want to feel a certain way when this is over. Exactly. And no other person can give us that. Right. And so if I ask you, are you cheating? And you say, no, I expect to feel better. I'm not gonna feel better. No. Cause I wouldn't have asked that question if I already felt good about our relationship. You got it. Or you say, yes, I'm gonna feel better.

And so there is no way that conversation can win. Yeah, absolutely. So if you ask that hard question, are you cheating on me? And the answer, and the amoeba go, no, the answer to your question, that didn't make you feel any better. Because you weren't looking for a conversational answer. You're looking for a feeling. You got it. And so you got to extract that out. Yes. And so the person can't give you feelings.

And that's all something you have within yourself. I can't make you feel a certain way. You know that conversation. And so it's the same thing when they answer the question, but yet you still feel it.

like i'm i am i need i need i need that feeling i need that vacuum from you give me all the feelings where i feel yeah yes let me feel good and safe and secure you're not going to get that not in the way you ask that question dude that's profound that means i would almost recommend somebody hold off on

what I would say, like the buck stops here conversation until like you, you write about eloquently until you know exactly what you're asking. Yeah. How you want to feel after it. Yeah. Because it's, it can be, even when you get the answer, it can feel very hollow. Yeah. Cause you, you, they're not going to give you what you were looking for. It was the feeling you were chasing. Okay. I'm gonna have to stew on that one. Cause I think that's,

I think that's a huge chunk of the marriage conflicts I enter into sitting with people is I wanted to feel a certain way. And it's like, what? Yeah. I want you to feel like you're connecting with me. You're on the same page. It's like, I'm answering your questions. There's no answer I can give you to help you feel. Yeah. I answered your question. What are you talking about? What do you want from me? Yeah. Dang. Okay. Last one here. We're seeing an epidemic of people cutting their families off. I think one out of every four questions we get on the show has something to do with

and again i'm going to put i'm going to put abuse way out here right outside the bunker um when i was my parents had me in there 24 and they didn't give me fill in the blank um my dad is 62 and he votes this way and he won't shut up about whatever or every time we go to their house they're watching this particular news channel pick your news channel and i just won't whatever um and then brothers and sisters so question here is

What are conversations we can have to find out or maybe to still down? Is this a relationship worth cutting off, worth ending? Or is there just some relationships worth preserving even though they're annoying or they're going to be uncomfortable? You know what I mean? Yeah, that's hard because there are some people, and we know who those people are, who...

will also weaponize their relationship in a way. Yes. Weaponize their friendship. If you, look, you do this, so I can't be friends with you anymore. On a base level, I understand that, but also understand you are putting them in a position of almost a threat of just that this is, if this is how you want to engage with me, then I can't do that. Depends what they're doing, but there are people who will

use that too much when it's like, wait, you only see them maybe once every six months? How much are they really weighing on your peace of mind? Are you just trying to use this to also control your own environment and how they should react?

I mean, you know me. I know you. We're pretty chill. Right, right, right. If you're watching a show that I don't agree with, all right. And so it's how much are you carrying? Why are you picking it up? Why are you holding it? Now, again, it's that dynamic with...

They continue to belittle me, put me down. They always make fun of me. They always make me feel less at that family reunion. Then you don't go. So there's some practical things just physically. Let's put it in the physical sense. You have to be physically near them.

Do you have to choose to be around them or talk to them? I mean, that are some of your base levels. But when you're talking about in person, like so much of this nonsense happens in the imaginary. Yeah. Zero's and one's world, right? Yeah. Like I hate you because of things that you hearted on somebody else. Oh my gosh. You're right. It's just this domino effect. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, and I mean, I have, I have my own grandparents that love to use all caps on their Facebook posts. You know what I mean? Yeah.

And so it's real easy to go, oh, they just have a different opinion than me, then I need to cut them off. Then this isn't serving me anymore. You can get really, I feel like you can get really toxic with that kind of behavior when you put up so many boundaries that you can't move forward.

And so that's a, you said something that gave me the ick, but I think that's, that was a point. Yeah. We have an ROIification of human connection these days. Whereas every person who's around me has to be some sort of, for like some sort of net benefit to me. Right. And when someone's quote unquote, not serving me. Yeah.

For some reason, that objectifies friendship and neighbors and parents in a way that's not the way people should connect. Yeah, and that's what I meant about weaponizing. They objectify it in a way of, well, this relationship isn't symbiotic. This isn't serving me anymore. I feel like that's a word that is... I get to say Mick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there are people who will...

won't take a second, they won't hesitate to use that kind of logic. I'm all for if there is a line where let's say you are in a position with a friendship and that person has continually just treated you poorly, turns out they're not a friend, they backstab you, they talk bad about you, cut them off, no problem. I also, from my own personality and how I see life and I think same way you do,

The quickest way to lose your peace of mind is to give someone a piece of yours. So you just need to also let them go. Because every time you bring them back up, you're putting them on the next page of your book. You're putting them on the next page. Leave them in two chapters back. You don't have to continue. They're not meant to be in the rest of your book.

So it is, you can cut them off, sure. And we can talk about, you know, what are the exact words or phrases, but it all goes into the different context. I just, I feel a certain way when people are saying, I need to cut this person off. Okay, well, how...

How often are you with them? Is it because they posted something you didn't like? Then what are you carrying? Why are you picking up with something they never ask you to hold on to? Or have you experienced life untethered to your mom and your dad? Right. Because it comes at a cost. Yeah. Even if they vote weird and they've got...

Over the holidays, my mom was explaining to me about how she's figured out this world. And I was like, all right. You know what I mean? Yeah. But she also, I'm sure I left and she's like, he doesn't even know. Yeah. She's still my mom. He'll learn. Yeah, of course. She's still my mom. And it's her first time to be a mom too. Exactly. You know, it's her first time living this life. That's right. That's right. And so you and I both...

Emphasize the grace that you give other people. Right. How personally you take what they're doing is a direct reflection of how much grace that you're giving them. Right. But that also means, and we'll get to this later on in the show, that's the teaser for it to come back, but that means you and I have to be whole outside of that interaction. Absolutely. Because if I need you to...

Serve me so that I can breathe. Yeah. That's too much weight for another person to carry. Yeah. If I've made myself dependent on your supply. Yeah. That's a problem. That's a problem. Because that means I'm using you like a Xanax. I mean, then I'm a parasite. Like a Flintstone vitamin. That's it. Exactly. Awesome. All right. We'll be right back. All right.

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So talk to me about this book, dude. It's awesome. Thanks, man. It's fantastic. Thanks, dude. I was hoping it was going to be terrible, and it's not. It's really good, man. It's frustratingly good. That's funny. Tell me about it. How did it come about? It came about, I never thought, John, I never thought I'd ever write a book. Of course. Ever. I just never. It was never on my bingo card. And when I was posting my content, the stuff on Instagram, we just have these comments, if you need to write a book, please write a book. I go, well, I guess I need to write a book.

So I had to, I Googled, how do you write a book? I mean, so I've been through that whole process and the, um, the team that's publishing it said, I think you really have something to say. And I said, well, Cal, well,

we'll figure it out. So what this book does is it distills really my framework for how I communicate. And my prayer is that when they read this, they really don't need me anymore. Like there's the framework. The framework is that when you speak, when you need to say what you need to say, you're gonna say with control, you're gonna say with confidence, you're gonna say to connect. And those three really are your foundation for almost any conversation. You can start making your own Jefferson Fisher communication videos

And the whole premise is that you can change everything in your life by changing the next conversation. I know that it doesn't matter what I said in the last one. I can change everything with simply what I say next. Say next, yeah. So control, connect, and confidence. Yeah. You launch into this thing. I don't want to give away too much. You launch into this book with when I turned the page, I started laughing. I was like, well, there's 95% of my life.

And it is, don't try to win the argument. Don't try to win connection. Talk to me about that. That's my whole life. That's funny. With my dog, I'm trying to win. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, help me, brother. Yeah, the whole premise of the book is to never win an argument. We have so many blogs and there's other books out there of how to win every argument.

I just think it's snake oil. It's empty. It's not going to get you anywhere. Because when you win, you lose a lot more. You lose their respect. You lose the relationship. What did you win? Me, okay. You and I are in an argument. I send that zinger that's going to hurt and burn in your eyes. And you walk off and I won. Great.

Now what? It's like the golf clap. Exactly. Congrats, bro. Yeah, you got it. And what did you win? Congrats. You won their contempt. You won the awkward silence now as you pass each other down the hall. You still have to probably work with this person. You probably still have to live with this person. You're married to them. Exactly. And all you've won now is to be first up to apologize. That's what you've won. Congrats. Congrats. Yeah, just enjoy that trophy.

And so the whole premise is to never win an argument because you'll start to lose the relationship. And what you need to do is stop seeing arguments as something to win and as knots to unravel. When you can start, instead of pulling your way or my way, and starting to go, help me see the knot, begin to unravel them, meaning having something to learn rather than something to prove, your life is going to be a whole lot better.

That feels like it takes an astonishing amount of inner confidence to be able to exit a conversation when you know the person wasn't right, when you know the person...

I remember the first time I... I call them mini depositions. It was student conduct matters, but their room is surrounded by attorneys, right? And so I'm not technically getting deposed, but you're getting deposed. You are. And I remember there was a mutual colleague of ours, Rob, being like, hey, stop talking. Stop. And it was like, I have to...

And it was like, almost like a be confident. Right. Like just say what you need to say and be quiet. Yeah, absolutely. And I realized my need to keep talking was because I wasn't super, super certain about what I was saying. Right. But when I think about that with my spouse, when I think about that with my kids, when I think about that with my kid's teacher, where do we get that inner confidence?

Confidence. Yeah. Because I think you have to have that to be able to say, I don't have to win this thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's a logical question because, and everybody's got this, that's why rule two is say it with confidence. Yeah. Because what happens is the more you...

Words you give, the less you say. The longer it takes you to tell the truth, the more it sounds like a lie. Yes. If you really know a topic, you don't have to explain a whole lot. So confidence is very quiet. Insecurities are very loud. Like you've ever been at a meeting where,

And it's the person who typically has the most to say, has to have the, you know what, I'd like to give my take. And they always have to give something in it who knows the least about it. Yes. The least in touch with what's going on in that company or that culture. Whereas the leader is typically very quiet. Yeah.

They know they don't have to say anything. Confident people know that they don't have to say anything if they don't want to. Insecure people have to say everything. They need to name drop. They need to make you know how smart I am, how many people I know, how many people have been on my show. It's the names that they'll just like to...

Drop just so that you know, it's really that insecurity that's talking at the at the baseline I remember this is right when I was starting this new weird world that we're in and I saw an interview with Jaco and The interview was like alright, so somebody steps to you and your wife on the streets in San Diego Like what do you do? And I remember him just quietly my pride just grab her hand and walk across the street get on that sidewalk and

And I remember, I'm paraphrasing it, but he said, but what about, you got to defend her honor. And he said with a smile, if it takes me beating up a vagrant on the side of the street to show my wife I honor her, I have failed her in every way. But it was like that. I remember going, oh, that's tough. That's tough. That's confidence. And then he went on to say, there's a handful of men on earth that can defeat me. He's like, I can, but the flex is. Right. And I guess. So he knew he had that power though.

And that gives you the power to walk away. Yeah. Are there situations where I'm trying to think of something outside of safety when I have to, I've got to dig my heels in. Is that ever a worthy move? When you need to stand your ground? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, but the whole thing of standing your ground, standing up for yourself is asking the question, is this person worth getting out of your chair for?

So it's just limiting the number of hills you're going to die on. You got it. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I grew up with my dad going, don't make that your Alamo. Is that going to be your Alamo? Yeah. Like, is this really? Yeah. Is this really? I mean, that would be his thing. I come to him with a problem. He'd go, okay, so? And I go, but you don't understand. This is happening. This is happening. Go.

So, I mean, and eventually water me down to where you're at. I don't know why I'm making a big deal about it. Yeah. And so it's, it's a mindset of the confidence of knowing I don't have to act. I don't have to move. It's typically the most powerful people say very little.

It's the little dog that yips the most. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just runs and runs and runs. Yeah. Man. Okay. Here's something else I took away from this book that was pretty heavy. Thanks for reading it, by the way. No, man. It's outstanding. It's frustratingly good because I can't write that good. I want to talk about, it's kind of a, I'm going to bridge the gap between that question and the next one. Okay. How do we try not to win everything in a world that's always competing with us?

Because I think the temptation is just, I'm going to take my ball and go home. Yeah. How do I stay present at a table? And you do this for a living. How do you stay present at a table, unhooked from every other emotionally reactive person? You have to add a lot of silence. So when you can add distance between what somebody has said and how you respond. Right.

Every time it gives you a lot more control and especially the perception of control. So let's say you and I are having a doubt and all of a sudden you just throw the worst insult ever.

And I don't say anything back. It's the worst, man. It's the worst. I mean, like. It's like hitting somebody and they just look at you. Yeah, exactly. It's Will Smith and Chris Rock. He hits him and he just looked at him. Yeah. And I was like, oh, that's bad. It looks bad. Right? It still looks bad. It does, but it will reverberate. Forever. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And so whenever you, when somebody walks himself out on a plank and you just let him hang there.

I mean, that's where you really have your sense of your power move of using silence because they know that they walked off on that ledge. So when you say unplug, it's really the concept of

knowing the power of the pause, knowing that I don't have to say anything. Yeah, you can take your ball and go home, but it's more of the basis of I just don't have to move because I'm confident in what I know and what I have to say. Same thing we were talking about gaslighters, that idea of when you're confident, I see things differently. Now, you can disagree with me. That's fine. It's okay to disagree.

I mean, now you're cool. Now you're cool hand Luke. Otherwise, when you're having to go, no, no, no, no, that's not true. And you're bouncing every which way. You're getting heightened. You're yelling. Now you're saying, I'm grasping for control. One with the pause says, no, I'm in control. Much different feeling. Much different vibe. So,

I guess the next evolution of that question is, talk to me about defensiveness. Yeah. And I guess what that communicates. Right. Funny thing about defensiveness is it becomes a cycle. So you take something somebody says a certain way, and you don't like it. So you get defensive. You say something defensive. Well, in turn, the other person gets defensive, and now you're convinced you're under attack.

And so it becomes this loop, what I call a self-fulfilling prophecy that you say, I thought you were mad at me kind of thing. You convince yourself that you were mad at somebody. When you get defensive, it's like locking the door in your room and then being mad at somebody that they can't come in. They should understand me. You still expect them to cater to your needs when you've totally blocked out all of theirs.

And so it just, it creates this wall that they should know. They should know how I feel. They should know that would upset me. But you care nothing about what's happening to the other person. Now there's a, you can do certain things and techniques to prevent defensiveness from the other person.

it's very hard to prevent defensiveness in yourself aside from just dropping it not taking things so personally harsh it's extremely hard but most of the time the yell that somebody's given you is truly just a bid for connection because they're they're they're tight their tension they're wanting you to hear it's most of the time the yell

is them wanting to feel like they are connected in some way. Now, it depends what they're yelling. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, that could be very different. But the whole idea of defensiveness is that it is probably the number one conversation killer. If I were to tell you, you say something to me and I go, I can tell I'm getting defensive at that. Now, when you hear that, does that make you sound like I know what I'm doing? Like I'm in control of myself or I'm not?

When you say that, I'm getting defensive about that. Yeah, if I say I can tell I'm getting defensive about that. That makes me feel like you're weak when you say that. Yeah. But also, because I want to be like, when you say that, I'm getting defensive about that. I feel like if that's the goal here... Well, it's because you're a bully. That's why. That's right. But also, it is...

I keep going back to fighting analogies, but that's you creating distance from us. I can't hit you. Yeah, you got it. I'll swing again, and that's you saying, I feel my body doing X, Y, and Z, and so I'm getting out of striking distance. And as a guy that's trying to fire you up, that annoys me. That's a great metaphor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I once had a trial where...

We were probably halfway through and this guy on the other side was such a fireball. He just gets so heated about everything. And halfway through in a break, he goes, man, I really don't like you. I said, oh, that's okay. He goes, no, no, I like you. I mean, you're great. He goes, the thing is, he goes, you don't give me an enemy. He goes, I can't get mad at you. He's like, I can't. He goes, usually I try and make an opponent.

So I've become, like before trial, of course, personally, we're fine. But when it comes to courtroom. Yeah, you put the gloves on and get after it. Exactly. I'm the opponent. And so he wants to feel justified in saying mean things and this other side and they're the enemy. But I never gave him that because I didn't deserve it. You know, I hadn't done anything rude. I was always continuing to be kind and just like just water off a duck's back kind of thing. Yeah.

And that's a main key is most people are just looking for an enemy when it comes to conversation. They're wanting to find a way to be mad at you. So I would say the next derivative then is actually I don't know if they're looking for an enemy as much as they're looking to feel justified being in a soup of their own feelings. Yeah. And the way they can feel justified.

and feeling miserable is if it's your fault. - Perfect, you got it, that's it. - Okay. - That's it. They wanna feel, they feel a certain way, so they need to dump it on somebody. And it just, you happen to be the living thing in the room. - All right, so that distills down. Can I tell you what the biggest thing I left with this book? - Yeah. - And disagree with me if you're like, that's not really what I meant. This may be one of the top three or four counter-cultural books I've ever read.

That's awesome. Okay, here's what I mean about that. I don't know that I've read a book in the last 10 years, maybe Arthur Brooks, that I closed the book and thought Jefferson sees more capability in me than I do. Oh, that's awesome.

And if I step back and look at the cloud hanging over our culture, it is, I've got fill in the blank diagnostic. I've got fill in the blank childhood trauma. I got fill in the blank X, Y, or Z malady. And culture has convinced us over the last 25 years, you're irrevocably broken. Just go to the margin. We'll pat you on the head and we'll take care of it. Right. Because you can't. And as I was going through this, I would say like,

Don't win the argument. I'm like, all right, man. But like, that means I have to just sit here and be cool. Right. And I know me well enough to know that means I got to still go see a counselor. And that means I got to get with my wife once a week and plan the week out so that I give her some peace so that I can have some peace. That means that I got to exercise most of the time. Otherwise, I'm just kind of a ball. Yeah. And it...

I kept hearing this, "No, you can." Yeah. "You can." Or, "Don't get defensive." Or, "Get up and walk away." Or, "Just don't answer." Yeah. Nobody in culture is saying that. They're telling you how to fight back. Right. How to slip the punch and swing.

And so a statement I've been making over and over recently is, and it's just me kind of a refrain that I'm repeating to myself, is I'm not solving for net worth. I'm not solving for the greatest sex. I'm solving for peace in my house. And for me and my family, it means I'm not going to owe anybody any money. If you can't take my house from me, then I'm going to be, right? If you can't take my car from me, I'm going to be, I'm at peace. I'm going to solve for having a hard conversation with my wife way upstream so it doesn't turn into a nightmare.

But nobody's telling us we can do that. And that's this whole stinking book is you looking and being like, no, you can. Yeah. You can. That's awesome. Do you sense the, let me ask you this. You work in the messy ugliness of people's lives on a day-to-day basis. Right. You wouldn't have a job if injustices didn't happen to other people. Yes. What gives you the belief in everybody? No, you can't. Yeah. Because I've seen it.

i've seen it and that's a wonderful takeaway that it's really just blessing to hear that from you john really i've seen it my experience in the courtroom depositions cross-examination just the everyday trenches of conflict i have seen people that could not go into a room without crying shaking uncontrollably

I have seen what I've been able to do once I spend time with them and teach them how to communicate. By the time that they're on the stand in the courtroom, you would never have even known it. And it's like, I know it. I know that they can because I've seen the transition by just a few phrases of letting their breath be the first word. That's a great story. I want to give it away. That woman, that's a great story. Yeah. It's just little bitty things like that where I've been able to see them...

transform into everything about them simply by what they say next. And by putting them in a position to where rather than trying to control other people, the magic happens when all they need to do is control themselves and magical things happen. And it's a message that I don't believe that culture is really talking about. I never really thought about that until you just said that. I guess it is very counterintuitive.

very counterintuitive. I mean, you do a good job here of talking about like when your body goes to fight or flight, your body protects you from thinking through your next steps. It just wants you to react. Exactly. And so we have an entire culture that's electric with reaction. Oh, they prefer it. Yeah. And so if...

Somebody like Jefferson says no, no, I think you can and I can lead with my breath if I can exhale if I can do the work to be confident when I sit down at a table not have Gosh, do the most common thing I ask on my show is does that make sense? Right after I give this explanation. You need to do next. Yeah, cool. Cool. Cool Like we're friends, right? And I just being able to say hey trust trust yourself and if you don't trust yourself, maybe you don't say anything right and

That that allows me to not live in a world of reactivity. And then maybe I can be the only thinking mind at my dinner table or with my family. And when that happens, you can smile. Yeah. Granddad can say whatever and you can be like, all right. Yeah. It's been good to see you. Exactly. Hey, we're going to stay one night. It's Thanksgiving. We're going to stay one night. Yeah. And we'll have fun. We'll talk politics and talk how Pfizer, we'll do that. And then you'll have a great one. You know what I mean? And we laugh all the way home. Or, yeah, I'm just going to outsource my...

to everybody. It's hard. Yeah, it is. So I guess, um, but that's a challenge. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess thank you for believing in people. Yeah, absolutely. And I, I hope people read this and they exhale and say, okay, when I can't see belief in myself, I got a toolkit now that my dad didn't have, that my granddad didn't have, that my mom didn't have, but there's a guy who believes in me.

I was able only to get it because there are people who believe in me. That's right. That's right. Yeah. That's how it goes. All right. When we get back, come back. We will do some rapid fire straight from social. Nice. Awesome. All right. It's sleep awareness month. So now is a good time to shout out my friends at Helix and remind you that sleep is foundational to every single part of your overall wellbeing. And all of us know the critical importance of a good night's sleep. And we all know how great it is to have a safe,

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I reached out to people on social media. My favorite place to hang out. I'm not great at it. I'm not great at it. You do fine. I do fine, but... You do great. What's wrong with you? I appreciate it.

Good. I'm working on it. You really do. I've been watching your stories. I always heart your stuff. You are. Can I tell you, occasionally I'll be like, in my car, I'll be getting out and be like, I got something. Not getting in the car. I'm not doing that in the car. Why not? That's like coming into your house. No way, dude. I got plenty of room. I love that. I'm going to start doing that. I'm going to start doing it in the third row. Let's do it. That's so awesome. All right. Here's the social questions rapid fire. You ready? I'm ready. All right.

I posted a picture of us and said, what questions do you want me to ask Jefferson? And I have no idea what we're asking. No, this is live. I love it. All right. What are your go-to open-ended questions to help people open up?

This is a good one that I like. I got this one from Chris Voss and Lewis Howes. I think Lewis got it from Voss, who's a fantastic friend. Who's the mastermind. Who's a fantastic guy and friend. Yeah, he's the mastermind. Is opening with what's the chance? Yeah. What's the chance we can talk about X, Y, and Z? What's the chance you'd be willing to go with me to do? That's a wonderful opening to question. For people curious, open questions.

any questions are questions that don't assume the answer like where did you go yesterday you can go anywhere a close-ended question is did you go to the store yesterday so closing the question assumes what the answer is if you only have a yes or no response it's a close-ended you want to open it up to get them talking you can also begin your stuff with what or how but don't begin it with why and i would add on to that unless you're doing a murder investigation don't ask don't

Yeah, for all you out there. Yeah, for all you not investigating murder, don't try to catch people in lies. Life's too short. Your kids, your spouse. Like, you know what I mean? There's something about, where were you last night? If you know you're at the store, you know, lead with. Yeah, if people feel like they're walking into a trap, and in fact, then later you spring the trap, you just lost trust. Forever. Forever. That's all you've done. It's not like you've proven your point. You've just...

Okay, all right. Ooh, this one's kind of close to home, kind of cool. I'm a 1L. I'm a first-year law student who doesn't like conflict, public speaking, and gets flustered easily. What are some tips? Oh, okay.

Well, if you're in law school, I would still, I'm sure your law school has advocacy. First of all, this is very transactional answer, but your school probably has advocacy teams. I highly encourage those. They're a great way to learn and do any of that. If you get flustered, understand that that's probably just a sense of your nervous system. You need to be much more available to adding your breath. Breath is what's going to control those nerves. And also understand that

If you just don't want to be somebody in the courtroom, you don't have to be. There's tons of training actual attorneys that never see the light of day of a courtroom and do wonderful things in the world. You can have a good life and not get on stage. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. You can. I mean, I know lots of attorneys that even go into a hearing would terrify them. So it just takes all the time. They got it. Go with what's natural. How do you recover when you say that thing and the conversation goes bad?

Oh, how do you recover? Immediately say, I should not have said that. Okay. Put it out there. Immediately take ownership of it. Okay. Like that, if you can say, I shouldn't have said that, or immediately that was unfair, or that was unhelpful, like you need to say what they're thinking.

You have to go ahead and say what they're already accusing you of. That wasn't nice. That was unfair. That wasn't helpful. Yeah. Or that hurt. Yeah. Almost even what they're feeling. Yeah. Okay. That's, that's, you have to get that out front, apologize, depending on what you said and get back on it. But the longer you delay, like if you withhold that apology, there's lots of people where, you know, all they have to do is apologize and they just won't. They'll hold it. It only makes things worse.

How do you politely disagree with someone who isn't mature and who has narcissistic tendencies? Let's just put it as how do you disagree with really anybody. I mean, you can disagree with a narcissist versus it's the same thing. One is like we talked about, I see things differently. Another is I lean differently or I lean the opposite. I tend to lean the opposite or I take another approach.

I love to have, I take another approach. I was going to say, that one feels right. Yeah, I like that one a lot. To just say, I take another approach, period. I don't have to justify it. Yeah, I don't have to explain it. I don't have to explain it at all. So if it's, I tend to lean the opposite. So I see things differently. I take another approach or I tend to lean the opposite. The reason why I tend to lean the opposite is a little bit different because I'm giving them a history of what I typically do. I tend to.

I tend to lean the opposite. That means I'm not just basing what you said right now. I'm just giving you what I'm applying right now is what I apply to everything. So that way they don't feel nearly as called out. So this is just how my, this is how I typically handle things. But I tend to take another approach or I take a different approach. This is kind of an aside here. Y'all can edit this how you want. This is an important question that just came to mind. Ready. Is your ability, and I need to mind myself to ask my ability, is...

Your ability to detach and be still come from a place of, I could eviscerate you if I needed to. Could you play dirty lawyer if you needed to? Yes. Yeah. Because I wonder, I'm going back to that Jocko question. It's not brave if he's not one of the strongest men on earth and has to run across the street. Yeah.

Right. Right. It's brave when I could, and I'm going to go across the street here. So as part of this, knowing I can really hurt my spouse and I'm not going to, I'm going to choose. Yeah. That feels like, I don't know, there's something about it that makes it more powerful. Like you need to mind yourself and know how you can hurt people so that. Right. Yeah. It's, I mean, I know that if I had to play what, as you termed dirty lawyer. Yeah. Mean lawyer. Yeah. Mean lawyer. Like I could, I could say really, I could say things, I could say things that were like,

hurt your childhood. Yeah, yeah. But I have also had the wisdom poured into me from my family, my dad, my mom, and my walk

of knowing that's a very lonely, empty road. And so the power of detachment is a true power. When you can see conversations happening and kind of step outside yourself, like you're watching them in a movie theater, where you're just eating popcorn and seeing how the other person's reacting, you get to see yourself.

But it's not a detachment from cowardice. No, it's not a detachment from strength. You got it. It's not a detachment from cowardice or from the conversation. It's a detachment of needing to win. Okay, a couple more. How do you politely disagree? Oh, we already did that one. All right, a couple more. Advice on respectfully shutting down rude or manipulative comments from elderly parents. Oh, from elderly. Okay.

So if anytime somebody is saying something that you need to shut down, you can't walk on, biggest thing is you cannot walk on eggshells and be like, oh, let's not say that, please. You know, if you're trying to, those kind of people will feed off of that. They'll try to lean to that anymore or even more. Instead, you need to stand exactly where you are instead of saying, beginning your words with you. You can't talk to me that way. It's, I don't accept that tone.

You can't yell at me, I don't respond to that volume. So whenever you can, instead of beginning it with you, begin with I, magical things can happen. You can figure out how to do that with almost every single phrase. Instead of beginning with you, beginning with I, because you can't control what they're saying. You can't control their comment, but you can't control...

yourself beginning with I and then you can quickly lay a boundary on that I don't I don't respond to those kind of comments that almost feels like a again like a yes way to it's a stiff I'm just taking a step back it is a very polite stiff arm in a in a way of you don't understand where you're going with this I don't respond to those kind of comments and if you keep saying them this is the end of the conversation

And I think respectfully shutting down rude and manipulative comments from parents is

May come with consequences. May come with the holiday's over. Right? For sure. Or may come with, we're not going to go out to dinner tonight. We're just going to eat back at the hotel. Yeah. Right? For sure. And I think people want to be able to... What's a magic way to say this so there's no consequence? Right. That doesn't exist, right? It doesn't exist. No, because you never know what they're... I can't control what they're going to do. Yeah. You never know what they're going to say or what the comment is or what the context is. Maybe it's probably something related to when you were a child, that's triggering to you and they didn't have...

Maybe they didn't intend to it. I mean, when you can ask the question, did you intend to upset me with that? Did you mean for that to upset me? Like when you can ask the question back, instead of a response, turn them into a question. So instead of like, oh, well that hurt, that was rude.

Did you mean for that to sound rude? Did you mean for that to hurt me? Did you mean for that to embarrass me? It sounds like someone shot you and it just bounced off. Exactly. It's just so dismissive in a powerful way. I'm going to say this real quick. On my way here, when I left San Diego, the way the airport's structured is, I just wasn't paying attention, but they have two separate wings here.

to where I went all the way through security in one, I was like, "Where's my gate?" And I keep walking and I walk out of that entire terminal and I have to go realize I have to go through security and another part of it. And I turned around and there was one of the TSA ladies. And I said, "Oh my gosh, I think I went through that. I got to go through this all again."

And she said, well, you should have been looking at the signs. We had lots of signs. I said, well, yeah, I guess I should have seen the signs. I just didn't, I didn't see them. She goes, no, it's your fault, sir. It's your fault. Dead serious. This is what she said to me yesterday. And I just stopped and I said, did you feel better saying that? And all of a sudden she got ready. She goes, I'm sorry, sir. You're right. I'm sorry. I was frustrated. Yes, sir. Like it was just a totally different, it's like that, uh,

you can't let it penetrate. But there is something important sometimes to occasionally turn and just hold the mirror up and be like, is that what we're going for? You got it. And that's the whole point of asking those questions. You become the mirror. And if it's really bad, you can ask them to repeat it. And then they have to be their own echo. But when you can say, did you mean for that to be... But also it...

I would say it also clarifies things. Yes. So like in a text message between me and my wife, if it's, did you mean for that to be short? That saves a lot of arguments. Yes. A lot of assumptions. Yes. Or the old Brene Brown quote, the story I'm choosing to make up is you're mad. Yeah. No, I'm not mad. I'm running to the bathroom. I just needed to hit same. Exactly. Or should I read into that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So before we go, I've got one thing here that I just vehemently disagree with.

Oh yeah, this is a glaring error. The glaring error. Perfect, yes. In the words of Jefferson Fisher, I see things differently here. So you write this great book. You write on page four, if you're inclined to believe that I learned my communication skills in law school, don't. Law school teaches you how to apply the law, principles of contracts, but you won't hear a lesson on how to diffuse a heated argument. Law school teaches you how to read the law, not how to read people. I had to learn that part myself.

Are you okay? I see that differently. I think this is the part where you tell America and the world that I taught you most of this stuff. Everything I know came from Dr. John Deloney. I appreciate that.

Gosh, the fully-handed method. I just needed that. I needed that. It was the feeling. I got stuck on page four. Yeah. And... You couldn't get past that. I couldn't. Every page I would read, I would just flip back. I'd read 10 pages, flip back, and be like, ah, I think I taught him everything in this book. For anybody listening, that's how we first met. So for anybody listening, I don't know if I said this the last time you were on the show, but...

You were one of those students that came in and all of our colleagues were like, hey, we got to be real nice to this guy because we're probably working for him someday. Like pretty sure either you or your wife, like we're going to be working for them. So we got to be super cool. Dude, thank you for coming to hang out. Nothing in the world makes me happier than your success here. It was awesome. And for the people that you help. And on behalf of like, forget the, we've known each other for a long time and forget friendship and all that. I was just the dad of two little kids.

You gave me a lot of language in this book that I can impart to them so that they will always feel like dad thinks I can. And so thank you for believing in me by writing this book. Thank you for believing in millions of people who will read this book. And thank you for changing the cultural conversation about you can't to, nah, I think you can. It's a blessing, brother. That means the world to me, man. Thanks, dude. Thanks, man. Appreciate you. Later, dude.

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All right. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with my great friend, Jefferson Fisher. And I think it's important to note that he did admit in front of all of you all that he learned everything from me.

when I was the administrator for one year during his grad school experience. He was kind of a floundering student, didn't really know where he wanted to go or what direction he was going to have. And then he met me and then he learned everything he knows. And so now he's pretty famous. And so I'm glad that he finally admitted all that on the, not really. I think I said this in the interview,

He was one of those students that all of us on the faculty or all of us that were administrators, we all were like, yeah, we should be nice to him because we're all going to work for him someday. Yeah, it's an amazing conversation. We're going to link to everything with the book. Please go pick this book up. It truly is exceptional. It's The Atomic Habits for Communication. And it breaks it down and makes it very simple to understand. It gives you a lot of clear, actionable steps on how to make your life better.

literally how to make your life better. We'll also link to Jefferson's Instagram pages for the two or three of you who aren't already following him and all the other good stuff we talked about. We'll link in the show notes. Listen, take control of your next conversation. Be clear, be concise.

Use conversation as a tool to connect with people, not as a way to try to win something. And man, you will talk, you'll just, your life will get more peaceful. Thank y'all so much for being with us. Love you guys. See y'all soon. Bye.