How Do I Tell My Kids He’s Not Their Father?
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How do I tell my kids that they were conceived with fertility treatments using donor sperm and that their dad is not their biological father? Ah, I'm going to sit with your 21-year-old one day and they're going to say if they lied about this, then they probably lied about everything else. What in the world's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show.

I hope you're doing well. It's been a rough week, if I'm being honest with you. There's lots going on in personal life, friends and family. And just know this show is about real people going through real stuff. And I'm not immune to it either. And so just know that I'm in it with you. And I'm a dad trying to do the next right thing. I'm a husband trying to figure out how to do that well.

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That means you're probably born in the century. Or go to johndeloney.com slash ask, A-S-K. Kelly, do you remember when we used to have to have a long distance card to call anybody that wasn't in our area code? Oh my gosh, I had not thought of that in forever, but I, yeah. Like when I went to college my freshman year, I had a calling card memorized, just a number memorized, so I could punch in 16 digits to then call a friend. When I moved here from Texas, my mom got me a calling card so I could call home.

So you youngsters, listen, if the number had a different area code, you had to pay by the minute to talk to them, which meant they had to be a smoke show, right? Or in Kelly's case, they had to maybe be a potential makeout partner. Otherwise, that call is not happening. Does that mean I was talking to myself and I just saw you?

Or if you want cell phones came out, you only talk to him after nine. After nine because it was free. But every text message, you pay text by the minute. Like you'd be like, I'm out of text for the month. Right. That's bananas. I remember that. You text and you look up and see how many, like, dang, I got like 10 days left and no text. Jeez, man. Now you can just chat GPT architectural drawings or something. I don't know what's happening in the world, but...

Oh my gosh. I'm so glad y'all are with us. Let's go out to Orlando, Florida and talk to AMY. What's up, Amy? Hi, Dr. John. How's it going? Good. It's awesome to talk to you. You too. What's happening? Well, my question is, how do I tell my kids that they were conceived with fertility treatments using donor sperm and that their dad is not their biological father? Ah, how old are they?

11 and 13. Who's having the biggest trouble with this conversation? You or your... Are you married? Yes. And so do they know their dad, the guy who's raised him, do they know him for their whole life? Yes. Okay. He's on the birth certificate. He's their father since birth. Excellent. Okay. So who's having the biggest problem with it? I don't think either one of us are having a problem with it. It's just...

We just don't know how to approach this subject. It's not a question of if we should tell them. We want to. We want them to hear it from us, not find out by chance someday doing a DNA test. Yes. And those are becoming ubiquitous. Yeah, your instincts are right. They 100% will find out. Right. Yes.

And back when we were going through this, it wasn't really, I mean, we thought about that future, but it was more that we just deeply wanted the kids and we were going to make our family this way. But now we know for sure they are going to find out someday and we want them to hear it from us. Which is so noble and I'm glad that's your disposition. Do you have, do y'all have biological kids by any chance?

My husband has two from a former marriage, and I have one as well from a previous relationship. Okay. This is going to sound strange, but I think that might help facilitate the conversation. Your kids have a picture in their head of different kinds of families. Yes. And different ways people take on the name dad or take on the name mom.

and different people coming in and out of their life with different levels of influence, right? Yes. So how old are they again? Say that again. 11 and 13. This is super unhelpful, so I'm saying this to the people listening. I probably would have had that conversation, began it earlier, but we're here. And so I think as soon as y'all are ready,

I think the distinction line, the sentiment I want you all to land on is anybody can father a child. Their dad stepped up and decided he chose them. And that's the double down, triple down, quadruple down I always want to go back to. I chose y'all.

And if they ask questions, you can talk about how, I mean, you can get with a 13-year-old and an 11-year-old, you can get pretty graphic, right? Have y'all talked about sex? Do they know about that? It's not weird or anything, is it? No, the older one, he's beginning puberty, so we've had that talk. Okay. I would recommend strongly that that not be a talk, that that just be discourse in your house, and your 11-year-old is probably 100 miles down the road from where y'all think he is.

From what he knows is that he or she, I just assumed that he, um, that he, yeah, he, he probably has a, an idea that from the bus or from his older brother on how stuff works. And so, um, I, here's how I would have the conversation. I would say, I have to talk to you about some big news and, um, that we have a special family and y'all know that because dad, um, dad had kids, uh,

you know, they're step brothers and sisters with this other person. I had a kid with this other person. And when we got together, we decided to make a family in another way. And here's how this works. And you can talk about, you know, you all know how sex works. The penis goes in the vagina and the sperm meets the egg and we make a kid. Some awesome medical researchers have figured out how to do that outside. And so why didn't their dad, why didn't he participate in

He had a vasectomy and then we had planned to reverse it, which we tried, but it was unsuccessful. Okay. I'm going to be honest. I would have that conversation with an 11 and 13 year old. Okay. I don't think that's too much. Um, it might be too much if y'all have, if, if sex is in your house is something that you'll never, ever, ever talk about, that would be too much at one time probably.

But if there is a discourse of we're an open family, we're funny, we laugh, we joke, we poke fun, this and that, and then here we go, here's this, that's a different

Y'all have a different context already. So if you don't have that, you're gonna have to build some context. We definitely have a good relationship as far as we can speak freely about things. We are conservative Christians. So I think there's some of that, that some of the sex talk isn't open every day. Sure. They're pretty sheltered in what they watch. And I'm not, you know, I know that they've seen things or heard things, but... And what I would tell you is...

The idea that you're a conservative Christian amplifies the need that they get open and direct and they understand their bodies are awesome and that sex is amazing. Like, does that make sense? Yeah. Because if you're not a conservative Christian, if you don't subscribe to that value system, you're getting from the outside world how amazing sex is and oh my gosh, check this out, whatever.

Because what I've done for the last 20 years is deal in the aftermath of kids who get to college, kids who graduate college, kids who try to start their lives and nobody ever had any conversation with them and they find themselves in nightmare scenarios. And so I would say if you subscribe to, if your value system is anchored in conservative Christian-ness, your house needs to be the most sex positive place on planet earth.

where they hear about it they talk about it they know mom and dad are doing it they know mom and dad love it and also it's bounded by a context right there's a time and a place and so that's that's neither here nor there that's a whole other that's a whole other call a whole other conversation right um but i would i would sit down and have that conversation and they are going to take their cues from you if you are awkward and you're scared and nervous they will understand that what they're being told

beneath the words of what they're being told is somehow something they should be ashamed, nervous, frustrated, scared about. If you all fully sit down and own this as two adults who made an adult decision because you wanted so badly them to in your life, they will have their world shifted, right? They're not going to understand biology versus whatever. So I have another dad. No, no, no, no. I will always be your dad. Always. Always.

But yes, an anonymous person contributed to the sperm part. So biology wise, you have an anonymous father and that's a choice we made. But this is your dad, has been your dad, will always be your dad. And he chose y'all. You got to keep doubling, tripling, quadrupling down on that line. He chose you.

Okay. Are you familiar with any data on kids or families like mine, like from a child development perspective and all that? No, I don't have any data in front of me. The only data, I would call it anecdata, which is just my lived experience, is sitting with 19 and 20-year-olds who just find out. Right. And what it does— I just don't want to mess them up. Well—

What's going to mess them up is feeling like there's something wrong or secretive about their existence. Okay. And y'all, you and your husband are going to have to make peace with the fact that, A, for medical purposes, they're probably going to want to know. Right? Because they're going to have to fill out questionnaires. Do you have any cancer in your background, in your family history? Do you have any liver issues in your family history? And they're going to want to know. Right. And they need to know that stuff. And with the...

If they can't already, they will be able to contact their original father at some point. I mean, their bio father. This technology surpassed us all. So you can read those stories that pop up where somebody's got a thousand bio kids across the world, right? That's the world you've inhabited. And so my fear for you is you're going to try to manage the info in a way that you withhold things. Please don't do that because here's what happens. I'm going to sit with your 21-year-old one day

And they're going to say, if they lied about this, then they probably lied about everything else. And so I'd rather them deal with uncomfortable information from an anchored in, honest, direct, loving, caring parent, a regulated adult, not somebody who did something and they're nervous about it or scared about it or whatever.

But yeah, here's what we did. We went and got a sperm donor because we wanted you guys and dad had had a surgery. They're 11 and 13, right? We're going to go, we're going to talk their language so they feel safe. And it's like, it was, but we tried and didn't work. So there's this amazing new technology that allows somebody who has dedicated their life to helping couples have kids that aren't able to have kids. And we don't even know who the name is, but it's not something y'all are going to shy and be like, and we're so sorry. We're not going to do any of that kind of stuff.

Because I don't want them walking away from this with their entire world upside down and them thinking somehow their existence is bathed in shame. Y'all made a choice. It is what it is what it is. Does that make sense? Yeah, that's great. And if you – I recognize my family's different. I'm just thinking of a conversation we had last night about the planets and

And you can imagine I was making jokes about your anus and just like, again, my family's different. I understand that. It's probably too far the other way. But if there's parts of the conversation that you, your husband says, hey, I need to talk to the boys for a second and we're going to invite you back in. And he talks about that.

In a way, in their language. Do you get what I'm saying? And I do believe in calling body parts the right words. And I do believe in never, ever, ever, ever, ever shaming a kid for body parts and making sure everybody knows that we all got the parts and it's all good. But there's also a part about, in the nerd world, we call it rapport building. I'll often speak a language, right? So if I'm meeting with somebody and they're swearing a lot, I'm going to meet them where they're at. I'm not going to violate my own values, of course, but I want to meet them where they're at.

And this is a way to talk to an 11 and 13 year old that lets them know, oh, our dad gets us. Right. And it may be in your house. Mom doesn't need to be a part of that part of the conversation, but they do need to be. Y'all do need to be united. We decided we wanted you two in our lives so bad. And there's a guy out there who dedicated his life to helping couples find or have amazing kids like you two. And it's just going to be a present as fact.

And if you ever have any question, anytime, always. And then it's really important to put on a calendar about two weeks later. One of y'all take one kid out and the other take the other kid out. And y'all go out and just talk about, hey, like, that was a big conversation we had the other day. What do you think? What have you been thinking about? Would you think you ever one day want to meet that person? I don't know. We don't know who he is, but you ever want to meet him? You let me know. I would love to help that.

Does it feel weird? And you might get one kid that is devastated. You might get one kid that's like, my whole life's upside down. And you might get another kid that's like, yeah, okay. In their world, there's all kinds of families. There's like y'all's family, which is a blended family. There's families of divorce. There's gay and lesbian families. There are, there's just families that look all kinds of different worlds in their world, in their schools and their friends. And this is just a unique family. And once again, I keep saying this over and over again,

We chose you. I think that's where you go. To every parent out there, right beneath my disdain for people who don't have wills is people who don't or are not honest with their children about big life stuff. Like this situation, we had a sperm donor. Or we had this situation. Or you had an infant brother who died two days after he was born and we've been sad for a long time about it and here was their name.

You have to have those conversations with their kids because they will come out and it unspools every bit of your relationship because every kid who's now a young adult asked the question, if they lied about that, what else are they lying about?

Now they don't need to know details about your sexual escapades of your past. They don't need to know details about blah, blah, blah. But if it concerns them, they got it now. They got to know. And it's got to be age appropriate. Right? So thank you so, so much for that call, Amy. Um, kind of like you mentioned at the beginning, not everybody's going to have this particular situation. In fact, few people will, although more and more and more are dealing with this, but, um, every parent has conversations that they need to have with their kids. Every parent does. And, um,

I'm just telling you, I've sat down too many 18, 19, 20, 21 year olds, 25 year olds whose whole lives are in ash because mom and dad kept big, big, big secrets. Thank you for being the parents who want to tell the truth. We'll be right back.

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All right, we got a husband and wife calling in. Let's go out first to Ellen in Milwaukee. Hey, Ellen, what's up? Hi, how are you? I'm outstanding. All right, hang on the line here. I'm going to click over to Drew. We ready, Joe? All right. Hey, Drew, what's up, brother? Hey, how you doing? Excellent, my man. Excellent. Excellent. All right. So what's going on? Whoever wants to go first, go first.

I guess I'll start. I was the one who initially called in. Drew, are you in trouble, Drew?

No, not at all. All right. So what's up? So my question, my broad question is, how do I kind of let go and stop obsessing over my father-in-law's abuse to my husband and my husband's siblings? And just why I feel the need, like I've taken on this role of like the person who needs to like

make him pay or like, you know, that calls him to the carpet. And it's, I'm, I'm obsessing about it. Like it's, I've basically broken every relationship with his siblings. Um, he and I have had issues over it and I just, I don't know how to get past his bad behavior. Cause I feel like he's never had to like be called out for it. Like he's just got to live his life.

Normally, well, I've just over the years learned about all these like awful things he's done. You're talking about Drew's dad? Yes. Okay. Drew, tell me about your experience growing up, man.

I come from an immigrant family. So my dad got here in the 70s. Really strict, kind of Roman Catholic family and then hard work. He had us jumping in and out of recycling dumpsters. Me at the age of six.

My brothers and I would do this for a few hours, it seemed like almost every day. And whenever I came to side jobs and stuff, he'd be very verbally abusive. Times that I wasn't the greatest son or if I would have hurt someone or just done something really stupid. There were a lot of physical...

physical, um, kind of consequences. He beat the crap out of you? Yeah. Okay. So, so Drew, can I tell you? Sorry, sorry, go ahead. You keep going. Sorry, man. Keep going. Um,

I guess over the years, I've seen maybe some type of improvement, but what I remember as a kid a lot and still now is the way he treats my mom. I'm not saying it's every day, but my mom in the last four years, I can remember had to sleep at my brother's house for a couple nights because...

I don't know, my mom doesn't really talk back to him or anything. She just kind of takes it. Or she'll get so upset, she'll like, I've seen her do this, let's finish a bottle of tequila until she passes out. Well, yeah, tequila works, man. Yeah. Okay, so before I move on, how old are you, Drew? I'm 37. You got kids of your own? We have five. Did this stop with you? Yeah. Tell me what kind of dad you are, brother. Um...

I like to think I'm a good dad. No, don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. What kind of dad are you? Hardworking dad. Do you have your kids crawling in and out of dumpsters? No. Do you beat up your kids? Never. Do you take out your anger and rage on Ellen? No. So this stopped with you?

Uh, yeah, I mean, I, we've had this talk too when probably like about, probably about a month ago, like a meeting between my wife, my brother, my mom and my dad. And I think I was like, probably the number, the number one thing that was highlighted just like, I'm just not, not like him. Hold on, hold on, just exhale on that for a second, man.

I don't think you are grasping what a humongous deal that is because a father's sins, and I'm not talking about like in the Jesus drank a beer, said a bad word kind of way. The pain and anguish and rage that a father commits to his sons is carried generationally.

Because sons find themselves frustrated with their sons, scared to death about economic situations or in your dad's situation, thrown into a completely new culture on the other side of the world, terrified about people are going to eat. And the most common path is that those guys have sons and daughters, but I'm just talking about sons here. And they go on and you get stuck in a system and you get frustrated with your wife. You get frustrated with your young kids. You get frustrated with your boss and you,

In some modernized version, you just recreate the cycle. And you have stopped it. That's a huge deal. And so if you haven't stopped and with Ellen by your side, stood in front of a mirror in your bathroom, put your fist in your bare chest with no shirt on, and just said, hell yeah, I stopped it. This crap stopped with me. I want you to do that tonight. Fair? Yeah, that's fair. Okay. What you've done is huge. I also would like to...

I really wouldn't have been able to do it without my wife. I know. Any good man I know stands on the shoulders of an amazing wife. I mean, that's just my life. That's my life too. Okay. But I want to call it out for you. All right. So I'm back to Ellen for a second. Ellen. Yes. Tell me about your childhood, your mom and dad.

Um, I had a great childhood. Okay. I, you know, two parent households, um, still very involved. They live next door to us. So, um, Oh God, help you drew. No, man. It's like, it's like the Romanos. Um, it is in a lot of ways. Yeah. Um,

So yeah, I think that's why like learning all of this is even more frustrating. Like I got glimpses of it. He and I met in third grade, so we've known each other forever and ever. And so I've known his family forever and ever. And I knew his parents were like stricter as we were dating in high school, but like it kind of all came to a head a couple of years ago with a text that really just like triggered my husband. And then I started hearing it.

It was silly. We were at a Packer game and his dad is a Dallas fan because he grew up in Mexico and that's what they had for NFL. And he was just, he was just kind of being like nasty, like, Oh, you have your sons at this game. The Packers stink. Like it was silly, but it just really, it, it got to,

Drew badly. And then he just kind of exploded over text. And then since then, I've just been getting more and more stories of just experiences he's had. And it's just made me more and more... But where did your sense of justice and protection come from? Is your dad like a civil rights attorney or something? Or your mom like...

He is a lawyer, yeah. He's a defense attorney, yeah. There you go. Okay, that's all I need to know. That's all I need to know. Right. Nailed it, yeah. I think it's also because I knew him at like 10. So when he tells me a story...

About like, yeah, I couldn't sit down in fifth grade because I was, you know, beaten on the back of my leg so bad. I'm like, I was like sitting next to you and like didn't know that. Like, I wish I could have. I don't know what 10 year old me would have done, but. So let me say this. So my dad was a homicide detective, so he wasn't a defense attorney. But I grew up with very much a sense of what you see in the headlines is there's a person behind that.

And we're gonna dedicate our lives to keeping people safe. I'm gonna dedicate our lives to telling the truth. And I remember as a young kid, I didn't have the words like you mentioned, like what am I actually gonna do? But I remember when somebody got hurt, I would feel it. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like your stomach gets all warm or your legs get real heavy. Yeah. And you feel it. And I think that's a testament to how you were raised.

And on the other side of it is, that's a testament to how your nervous system works, how you're wired. But you have a deep and profound sense of justice and you love this man and you've seen the extraordinary challenges and changes he's made. And both of you have a sense, I'm guessing, after having your own five kids, it's unconscionable, right? You look at your own kids, you're like, how is this possible? Yeah. Like I knew intellectually, like you shouldn't leave your kids. I...

I couldn't wrap my head around deciding to not be around my daughter or my son. Like I couldn't even conceptualize that. My heart doesn't beat right when I'm gone, right? All that to say is, I want you to hear and see, I'm gonna say this with all due respect, your husband needs to love him and walk alongside him and not go out and go to war for him. And you punishing an old immigrant, exhausted man

will not make his childhood okay. It will continue to cause tension and chaos in your existing lives, and you'll have plenty of that. You got five kids. Yeah. You don't need it. No, we don't. And so Ellen is— I mean, and that's why I called. Well, at some point, you have to decide to stop reading the headlines because it's not helping. You know what I'm saying? Like, what else are you going to do? Right. Are you going to go hit him? Like, where does it end for you?

because you have these imaginary conversations like if it just was me and him I would let him and I'm gonna tell you right now it won't go like you think it would go it won't feel like you think it's gonna feel and it will solve no things the greatest middle finger happened well yeah so and then you're into your rope you don't know what else you don't have another play in the playbook the greatest middle finger to that type of childhood is raising your kids in a safe tethered peaceful household yeah

And that doesn't feel like justice, but it's transformative. Drew, what's it like seeing your wife get fired up and just want to go to war against an opponent she can't defeat? Sometimes, I don't know, me going through, I mean, like what I went through and what she just, I don't know, I'm not saying I've...

I've coped and I've like let this go, but I mean, that's, I don't know. I, sometimes I, I just want to tell her to like, to let it go. But then I also, I began to feel like enraged myself. Yeah. Cause then I, I started, I started thinking about my mom. Yeah. And like, remembering like the nights of her like, uh, crying. Yeah.

And so... And is there anything more heartbreaking and is there any more deep feeling of powerlessness when you're adult parents? When you have the ability financially, psychologically, emotionally to help them and they look at you and say, I don't want your help. Like it makes you feel small and powerless, right? Absolutely. Yeah, it's the worst. And Ellen, you know Drew won the lottery when he married you, right?

Say it one more time. I think so. I'm sorry. You think so? I know so. I'm not trying to, yeah. So here's what I want you guys to commit to. We all go out this weekend for a breakfast together, and I want y'all to answer this one question. I ask it all the time, but I want y'all to be serious. What do you want the house to feel like when Drew walks in every day? And what do you want...

the house to feel like, Ellen, when you walk in every day. Five crazy kids all over the place, Drew's running around, like, what about the house to feel like? Because here's step number one, after y'all answer that question, and when me and my wife asked it, I think I've talked about on the show, like when we talked, I wanted it to be warm, I wanted people to be laughing in the house, I wanted people to be happy I was home, and to get whatever feelings y'all want in your home, y'all are gonna have to consciously say, we're gonna stop inviting the ghosts of my dad in this home.

And every time we pick up a text message, every time we engage in a fight over the holidays, we are inviting the ghosts of my father into this home. And he's not welcome here. Or in another way, I can say it is, I'm going to stop giving him power over me and my family. Because, Ellen, you're inviting him back in. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. And there will go ahead. I'm sorry. I was going to say it's, it's harder. There's an extra layer too, just because of the type of community we live in. Like we all belong to the same church. Like we see them on Sundays. Okay. Ellen leave. Leave. Go to a different church. You're a grownup adult. You have five kids. Yeah. Go to a different church. Okay. Yeah. Your peace isn't worth all these other games y'all are playing.

And there's going to be some grief because y'all may want to go to that church. But bigger than that, you want peace in your home. You want laughter in your house. You want Drew to come home exhausted, about to get mauled by five bananas, bonkers kids. And you still kind of think he's a smoke show when he wears the right shirt. And y'all wanted these five kids to go to bed so that y'all can, yeah, like I'm not, I'm not, I'm not going to go have drama on my one day off, which is Sunday.

Yeah. I'm not going to go into a house of worship in a place where I know I can't worship because the ghosts of my father are still there because my feelings of ineptitude, because my mom won't let me help her. I'm going to opt out because I'm the adult and I get to do that. Yeah. And I'm sure there's other places, you know, weekly meals. Well, we're going to, we're going to stop heading to go into the weekly meals or just Drew's going to go.

And Drew, at some point, it will be your conversation, not Ellen's, when your mom says, where are you? And your brother calls you out and tries to, because he still feels, your brother still feels chained to this whole thing. And I'm making this up, but I'm just guessing. At some point, somebody will call you out. And that's when you consciously exhale and drop your shoulders and say, yeah, as for me and my house, we're choosing peace. So I just needed to opt out. Oh, you're turning your back on your family? No, no, no, no. If my family wants to bring peace to the house. I think we're already doing that. Okay, well, good. Then what you guys have to do is grieve it.

because it's not supposed to be this way you're supposed to have one awesome set of grandparents on one side of the house and one awesome on the other and y'all don't and i'm sorry it breaks my heart for you yeah and it breaks my heart for those five kids right yeah that's the hard part too because they wonder like why haven't we seen papa or what's going on and it's just like i don't i don't really know what to say obviously i wouldn't drag them into this drama but um we haven't

The kids haven't seen him besides church or we all go to the same grocery store or whatever in months. And grandpa's struggling right now. Grandpa's not doing great. Yeah. Then we're on to the next. I would love to too, son. It just doesn't work out this time. But Ellen, I'm guessing some of your rage comes from your sense of justice that you were given as a kid, and I'm so grateful you got that. And I'm guessing some of your rage comes from

Like it's you and Drew versus the world. I mean, y'all are Packers fans for God's sakes. Most of your life sucks, right? But it's y'all two versus the world, right? And it hurts when somebody's got their hooks in your husband. Yeah. And it hurts him when he sees his wife just banging her head against the wall against something he knows since he was two years old, he ain't gonna change. Right. And so there's this exhale where we get to decide, we're gonna grieve the picture that we wanted, which is two sets of rad grandparents. We're not gonna get that.

And we're going to exhale and say, okay, as for me and my house, how can we get laughter and peace and joy and warmth back in this place? And for y'all, it's going to be deciding. We're not inviting these people back in. And collectively, I hate that for y'all. I hate it. And this is a message that, I mean, I don't know how many 80-year-old dads, 75-year-old dads listen to this show. Probably zero. 72-year-old moms listen to this show. Probably very, very few. It is never too late to call your sons and say, I'm sorry.

It's never too late to call your sons and say, I screwed up real bad. Do you forgive me? I want to do better. It's never too late to say, hey, I made up stories about you too, son. You too, daughter. And I was wrong. I'm sorry. It's never too late, moms, to say, you hit me for the last time. I'm out. At 72 years old, enough is enough is enough. I'm out. It's just never too late. Thanks for the call, Ellen and Drew. Thanks for the call. You're lucky you found each other. Tonight, y'all go look in the mirror together. Drew, put your fist in your chest and say, it stopped with me.

And Ellen, give him a big hug because that's a Herculean masculine task. You married a man and that's amazing. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Listen, right now, BetterHelp is offering the biggest discount I've ever seen. 90% off your first week now through March 31st.

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All right, we are back. Right when I got off the call, I remembered I'm recording this show right before we have our Valentine's weekend money and marriage. And I have, so I offered Ellen and Drew seats at that and hopefully they'll be able to see to come, come join us. And if they do, we'll do a follow-up episode with them. It'd be fun to catch in with, check in on them. Let's go out to Bozeman, Montana and talk to Diana. What's up, Diana? Hi, Dr. Don. How are you? I'm phenomenal. How are you?

I am phenomenal also. Excellent. Excellent. What's up?

So I'll just jump into my very long-winded question. I'm the long-winded one around here. Okay, so my husband is a very, very busy man. He travels frequently, and so he'll be gone for days or even weeks at a time. When he is gone, it's just me and my son at the house, and we have kind of just like a peaceful rhythm. We have things planned, but nothing too busy, too busy.

just kind of going with the flow. And then when he comes home, the energy is very different. He's a very intense, passionate kind of man. And so he brings that energy into the household. And it's just, it's always kind of chaotic. And I'm having a hard time regulating kind of between the two environments. When he's gone, I miss him.

But then when he comes home, I am kind of overstimulated. Like as soon as he tells me that he's on the flight home or driving back, it's like I can't breathe anymore. And then he gets home and I'm picking fights. And I'm just having a hard time regulating between when he's gone and it's just me and my son. And then when he's home, it has like this whole kind of different dynamic with the house. You're awesome. Got to tell you, thank you for the call.

Thank you for picking up our call. If I go prodding, will you promise you'll be as honest as possible? Yes. Okay. Have you ever sat down and told him that you hate his job and you miss him? So we've talked about his traveling. Hold on. Have you ever told him that? Yes. What did he say? He says he's burnt out too. Okay.

But I think I kind of forgot a big piece. So he's always kind of been like this very on-the-go motivated person. But a year and a half ago, we went through some pretty extreme trauma. And I think he's still kind of living with that every day. And I think his coping mechanism has been to fill his schedule as busy as possible so that he doesn't have to sit and think about it. Busyness is a great American male drug.

Yes, and it does feel like a drug in the house. Yeah. What was the trauma? And so I do want to be very empathetic. What was the trauma? His mom had a heart attack, and she was on life support for two weeks, and so he slept with her in the hospital, had to kind of witness all of that, and then after the two weeks had to make the decision to take her off life support. Where's his dad? Um...

He is in the picture in the very slightest sense. Okay. We wish he wasn't, but I wish he wasn't. Yeah. There you go. There you go. Yeah. And I, so when this all did happen, I was six months pregnant and he is the oldest brother. And so I kind of, I saw him take on the energy of like, I'm the man of the house. Sure. You guys feel, I won't feel. And kind of that has not stopped since that time. Okay.

And my guess is he needs somebody who really loves him to sit down and say, you're safe now. Yeah. And I miss you now. Yeah. And the most empathetic thing is rarely silence. Yeah. And if it's safe, and no one's going to tell you this in a how to be married blog. If there's abuse, then that's a totally different conversation. But if you're safe, then what many men need in this situation is their wife to wade through that electricity and hug them anyway. Yeah.

Because my guess is he's running and gunning, and he's high as a kite on busy, and he doesn't know how to stop. It's just cocaine. He can't get off. And every time he starts to dip, the only way to keep going is to take more. Yeah, there has been moments where he's had to dip, either like my son and I haven't been home or we've been doing something, and mentally it's very, very hard on him. Right. But just because it's hard doesn't mean it's wrong. He's going to have to get off this train one way or the other, and I'm afraid it's going to end poorly. Yeah.

He's going to say or do something out of just sheer fatigue and exhaustion and anger, unprocessed anger. Because by the way, that should not have been his call to make. That should have been his dad. His dad sucks. Yeah. And it should have been all the brothers rallying around. And he's probably been taken on that role since he was a really little kid. And he probably had some conversations he wanted to have with mom and he can't have them.

Yeah. And the worst possible thing he can do is go through 18 months of not talking to anybody, saying anything. And that's a tools issue. He doesn't have the tools in his toolkit. He didn't have a picture of what an adult male looks like when they're struggling. But he does have a wife who loves him to the moon and back. Yes. He does have that. Yeah. And so I think the easy thing, and by the way, I'm a humongous, loud, obnoxious guy. So I've seen my wife.

Like almost flinch when she wades in. Yeah. When I'm not doing well. And not flinch from she's going to get hit, but she can feel the nuclear reactor in my chest. She can feel it. Yeah. And we've been together for almost 13 years now. So I've always been used to kind of that intensity, but now it never comes down. That's right. Which is kind of where we're struggling. That's right. And it's just like the last call, the couple I just talked to. And by the way, if he ever wants to call in, I'd love to talk to him. Okay.

But it's you guys asking the most terrifying question I think anybody can ask. And that is, okay, it's been 18 months since the worst of the worst. And now we're starting to wear the bomb blast inside our own house. Here's the most terrifying question you and him can ask together. What are we going to do now? Because we can't keep doing this. Yeah. I can't have you disappearing for weeks at a time and coming in like a tornado. I can't be in my own house and have a panic attack when the most important person in my life says he's coming home.

And so we have to decide to do something different together so that when you text me from the plane, everything in my day gets better. But it's going to be someone who loves them. It's an intervention. If you ever watch that show, it's an intervention. But it has to start with I words. I miss you and I can't do this anymore. I'm not leaving you. I need you to know that you not being well affects all of us in this house. How can I love you?

And I'm going to see a counselor because I don't know how to love you through your pain, through all this whole stuff. I'm fine. I'm doing okay. You're not. I've known you too long. You're not. Yeah. Okay. And it's not, you have to quit your job. It's not any of that kind of stuff. I'm busy. I think I've talked about it here on the show. I'm busier now than I was when me and my wife finally sat down, when she finally waded through and said, enough is enough is enough is enough. You're not okay. Yeah. And I know you feel like you're harnessing the electricity, but you're not. We're all getting burned. Yeah. Yeah.

That's kind of how it feels. Yeah, yeah. And then you end up feeling used, huh? Yeah, I kind of just feel like I'm getting dragged behind a car sometimes. That's exactly right. Yeah. And for a while, sex will calm it down. For a while, I'll do a nice thing like with dinner. For a while, it's I'll keep the house a certain way. For a while, it's, but then you start longing for, why don't you just go on your trip so me and my son can get back to our life. Yeah.

Right. We've had that conversation that it feels like my son and I have one life and he has one life and sometimes they overlap, but otherwise they're separate. And that's what we're going to call right now. We're going to call it. We're going to turn the lights on, turn the music off and say, I'm not living two lives anymore. We're living together. I'm your wife. I miss my husband. Okay. And so we get to decide how does this house feel when you walk in?

And I want it to feel warm and full of laughter. So here's what must be true. When you come in, here's what this has got to look like for me. And by the way, when you come in, how do you want that to look like? When you're gone, how do you want us to talk, to text, to laugh, to have joy? What do you want that to look like? Because this separate life thing is killing me. Yeah. And I think underneath it, I mean, am I right? Like, I think you just miss your husband, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's really all it is, I think. Miss your ride or die. Yeah. And does he know that part? We've talked about that. Okay.

Yeah, it kind of feels like we've had all these, or not all of these, but a lot of these conversations. And right now he's kind of just in that like addiction, so to say. Like it's almost like he can't grab onto something to get off. Yeah. I think that's a great sentence to tell him. I see you. Okay. And I know you can't get off. But here's the truth. When you land next time, I'm going to ask you to go spend the night in a hotel because I don't want you coming straight from the airport because I can't handle it in the house. It's too hot.

Okay. Or I'll go with you. Like nobody would make fun of you if you had a leak in the roof and you had to go ask somebody how to repair the shingles. You don't have the tools right now to get off the, the busyness rollercoaster and to be present with your family and actually decide we want to live here. Do we want to move? Do we want to go do something else? And so we're going to get the help that we need. For me, will you go do that? Um, we've talked about like him going to therapy before and he's,

It's a little too nervous to do it alone. Is that something that we could start together? 1,000 million billion percent, yes. That'd be the greatest gift you can give him. And I would probably phrase it like this. I've made an appointment with a trusted counselor that a couple of friends of ours pointed out. I'm going next Tuesday. A way you could really show me that you love me is if you came with me. Okay. And when you get to the therapist, it's not going to be about he's doing this and he's doing this. It is...

I'm out of ways to show my husband that I love him, that he's safe at home. I want to learn some new skills. And when he hears it with a neutral third party, not in his environment, at his house where it's all like where he's got an energy that he's walking into his own house with. When you're sitting in a therapist's office and your wife says, I'm trying so hard to love him and I'm out of tools. I don't know how. Can you help me, therapist? Often that has a just, it's like peeling a cataract off a situation because no husband that I know wants their wife out.

To feel like they're out of options on how to love them. And that would be a great invitation for him. But yes, I'd make the appointment. I would tell him you're going. And if he doesn't show up, I would go anyway. But invite him and tell him those words. The number one way you could show me you love me right now is to go with me. Because I love you so, so, so much. And I miss you. And I don't have a connection point back. Thank you for the call, Diana. He's lucky to have you in his life.

And he's lucky to love you through his grief, that you're loving him through his grief. You're loving him through his addiction to busyness. You're loving him through his, he's terrified on what to do next. He doesn't have a dad in his life that he can call and say, Hey, old man, can you help me with this next move? He's lucky to have you. Just remember empathy rarely equals silence. Empathy is not passive. Empathy is active. Thanks for loving him. Well, Diana, we'll be right back.

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Visit CozyEarth.com slash D'Loni and use code D'Loni right now. That's C-O-Z-Y, CozyEarth.com slash D'Loni. All right, something awesome happened. What is it, Kelly? Yeah, so this one's a little longer, so bear with me. Excellent. And he asked that we not use his name, and we're going to respect that. First of all, we need some more cool crap that happens, and am I the problem? Awesome. So send them our way. Very cool. All right. Started listening from the beginning when you joined the Ramsey team.

At the time, we were about 11 years into marriage with two elementary-aged kids. I was a dad who yelled and said sarcastic and mean things to my wife and kids. My wife and I had very little communication. We were having sex maybe once a year and did not know how to have difficult conversations. I was working long hours, not available, drinking daily in the afternoons before I would come home to my family. Dinner time was stressful. I would stay up late working, watching movies and drinking, and then wake up exhausted.

I needed caffeine and B12 to get me through the day. I was keeping secrets and we were unhappy and I was beginning to have health problems. Many things from your show have impacted my living and caused me to make changes in my behavior almost from the beginning. One of the first things you said that touched me was yelling is abuse. It's childish and abusive. Also that secrets damage relationships. Another is the practice of letter writing to forgive myself and deal with past trauma and guilt.

Since listening to you, I've sought more counseling, forgiven myself for past mistakes. My wife and I no longer yell at each other or at our kids. I've forgiven others who hurt me when I was a child. I've had hard conversations with relatives and friends. I no longer drink to manage stress, and I've made it a practice to connect regularly with old friends. I'm exercising regularly, and I no longer need caffeine to wake up in the mornings.

Oh, yeah. We're off the annual plan. Yeah.

I appreciate you joining the team and that your insights are being shared across the globe. Keep up the amazing work. Dude, I'm not even going to comment on that. That's awesome. I think that guy speaks for himself. Well done, dude. You're doing the work. You and your wife are doing the work, and that's awesome. And for whatever it's worth, your grandkids are going to have a different life because you chose to turn around and stare down the dragons. It's awesome. It's hard every single day. I'm proud of you, brother. And everybody else out there who is making changes,

Tiny ones, minute by minute, hour by hour, year by year. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. And shout out to you, team, gang, the guys who actually do this show. Thank you all. I think we're doing a good thing out in the world. Bye. Bye.