I’m Having An Affair With My Friend’s Wife
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His wife kind of made a pass at me, and we have been in an affair now for the last eight months or so. You're not calling me to ask, like, oh, God, I've blown up my life and my wife's life. It's not why you're calling. You're calling to ask, is this true love or not? What's going on? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. Hope you...

Have a lot of joy in your life today. It may not be the best day of your life. You may not be super happy, but I hope that you're where you need to be doing the things you need to be doing to help create the life that you want to be living. Man, on this show, I sit with hurting people trying to figure out what's the next right move in these crazy lives we're trying to live in these crazy times.

And, um, I know when this show will come out, hopefully things will dramatically have improved, but man, we are a week into just the caustic caustic wildfires going on with our friends and family in Los Angeles and the surrounding areas. And so just know that, um, if you're listening to the show right now, it was shot a month earlier and, um, but we are actively thinking about and praying about and involved in supporting our friends and loved ones. So everybody listening from out there, thank y'all for joining us. And, um,

please don't be shy about asking for the help and care that you need and give your neighbors and friends a chance to step up. If you want to be on the show, give me a buzz at 1-844-693-3291 or go to johndeloney.com slash ask A-S-K. Let's go right down the street here in Nashville, Tennessee and talk to Will. What's up, Will? How we doing, man? Hey, John. How's it going? I'm doing all right, brother. What's up?

Hey, just so I got a quick question for you here. I, uh, I kind of, uh, got myself in a little bit of predicament and, uh, so, uh, I'll just get right into it. Um, my wife and I, we've been married, uh, for about five years and, um,

In that timeframe, I was able to reconnect with a friend of mine, uh, that I had made a male friend of mine that I had made after high school, um, and whatnot, started to kind of hang out with, uh, with him. And, uh,

Found out kind of through hanging out with him that his wife kind of made a pass at me. And we have been in an affair now for the last probably eight months or so. We've obviously talked about...

just about everything under the sun. And I guess I'm trying to figure out, you know, if I, am I interested in this person or is it just the thrill of having an affair and, and doing something obviously that, you know, you're not supposed to do. And so I'm trying to, trying to figure out how to,

figure that out. Um, because, uh, you know, I, I just want a little bit of advice on trying to how to progress forward with that. Oh man. Um, so let me just walk it back and you can just tell me up or down. So you are sleeping with a great friend's wife. Correct. Does your friend know? He does not. Does your wife know?

She does not. And so you're not calling me to ask like, oh God, I've blown up my life and my wife's life. And I've blown up one of my close buddy's lives. It's not why you're calling. You're calling to ask, is this true love or not?

I'm calling to ask because, you know, in the time that I've chatted with this person, you know, we've obviously, we've talked a lot more about just the physical nature of things. And, you know, there's been times where we both had the idea that, you know, our lives potentially could be better with that other person. But obviously, that's not something that I...

you know, want to, I don't want to jump into something or I don't want it to technically pursue something. And then turns out it was just because of the thrill of an affair. I mean, my, my wife and I, we've had our struggles and our issues free the involvement of the affair or my friend almost called it off a few different times without that being a factor. So I think it was just kind of came across at,

the timing that I was the most vulnerable to accept it. But yeah. So, so I guess the best thing I could tell you, or the right thing I could tell you is you are so what, what it's like, you're watching the lion King. You're watching like a, you're watching like a Disney movie in the theater and you're watching these animals all talking to each other.

And you're wondering what it would be like to talk to one of those animals too. Okay. Your questions are so divorced from the reality with which you actually find yourself that it tells me that you've had to construct a world where this is okay and there's a world that everything's going to be okay on the other end of this because if you didn't have that kind of psychological connection

around what you're actually doing, you would implode because you become somebody that you could never have imagined you would be. You're sleeping with one of your closest friend's wives, period. You're actively for over a year having sex with somebody that's not your wife, putting her at physical danger, putting her at grave emotional danger. I mean, like, and what you're thinking about is, man, isn't this going to be wonderful on the other side of this thing?

It's kind of like watching, it's like you're in Los Angeles right now watching your house burn down and wondering where you're going to put the new kitchen during the rebuild. Right. Like you're not absorbing reality. And so number one, no place in this conversation are we talking about how are these feelings real or not? Not until we've looked your wife in the eye and said, I've blown our marriage up and I don't want to be with you anymore.

Not until you've looked your buddy in the eye and said, I've been sleeping with your wife for a year and I'm sorry. And after the ash settles back to earth, after that conversation, those conversations, then you can ask yourself, okay, are we in a relationship? Are we going to try to build this thing and move forward together? Which the percentages on that, just scientifically, the percentages of those relationships being successful are very, very, very low. Right.

Because then the old bumper sticker, like, it's true. Somewhere somebody else is tired of her too. And you also, right? Like y'all just living in a fantasy world. We don't have to deal with reality. You just get to have these romantic, oh my gosh, conversations. And you get me and passion. And we get to have sex. And there's nothing anchored to it in reality. Like dishes and bills. And hey, we're trying to build a life together. And I want to do this, but I want to do this. Y'all are skipping all of that.

So until you anchor back into earth, any conversations you'll have are just fantasy. They're just Disney movies. They're not real. Why, why haven't you sat down and had that conversation with your wife yet? Um, so we've been obviously dealing, like I had previously stated, we had been dealing with, um, our own obviously struggles. Um, yeah, but you took, you took struggle. Every marriage has, I've had nightmarish struggles. You went, you went the next step.

Right. So I haven't sat down and talked with her about it because I guess I'm kind of put it in my mind that if this marriage that I have with my wife were to potentially fail, that I didn't want this reasoning to.

Of what's going on. Bro, you have failed it. Like, you're the failure. You get what I'm saying? Right. And I'm sure she's got her own challenges. I'm not saying she's perfect, but... Right. Like, you're actively sleeping with your buddy's wife. You're like, well, if this thing doesn't work right, it's like you're the one that's not working right in it. You get what I'm saying? Right. No, I'm aware of that part. What I'm saying is that, like, obviously...

Our marriage pre this had obviously its problems. We're trying, we were trying to, you know, work on those things. And I obviously made the mistake initially and, you know, her and I, we haven't engaged in anything in a while because obviously I'm taking a step back, but it's also one of those that it's at the point where I feel like in order to

build with my wife if that's what her and I choose to do then I need to obviously be upfront and honest with her about everything that has happened and if I do that then listen listen listen listen listen listen you're like I'm really close to compassionate for you right now I'm frustrated with you I'm angry with you but I'm also compassionate because I think you have created a delusion that you live in

I wouldn't disagree with that. You use these huge circular, well, you know, and then we might. Listen to me so carefully. You're having sex with another man's wife and you're going home and you're laying in your bed next to yours. You're having sex with your buddy's wife and then y'all go have dinner together as a foursome. That is where everything has to start.

You can't be sleeping with somebody else's wife and trying to see if your marriage is going to make it. That's madness, Will. Madness. And you can't be hanging out with your buddy while you're banging his wife and be like, well, I'm trying to figure out if our feelings are right or wrong. What are you doing, man? You get what I'm saying? No, I get what you're saying. I think... So like today, today needs to be the day. Today needs to be the day that you...

Tell your wife, we got to talk. I've been having an eight-month affair with our mutual friends, and I've blown our marriage to smithereens. Yes, we had problems. Yes, there were holes in the boat, and I detonated it. And you being a grown man need to say, I've already got me an apartment. I've already got me a friend's couch to crash on because I know I've blown your world up, and I don't want you to have to move to. And maybe she comes back and says, well, I should probably tell you I've been sleeping with somebody else too. Maybe, right? Maybe. Who knows? Is she having an affair too? I would doubt it. Okay.

Obviously, I don't know. And then you ask your friend, I'm going to meet you in a diner here in Nashville. We got to talk. Or you tell the woman you're having an affair with, hey, you got 24 hours because I got to come clean with my buddy. I've become somebody that I never dreamed I would be. And I have to stop. I think that's where I've been struggling because it's like I have gotten far down the road, obviously. And I think in my mind, I have this delusion that

there is a different path out besides going back. There's not a way to land the plane. There is no going back, but your fantasy about how this plane lands is false too. Both are true. So there's no going back. You blew it up. The boat's gone. You and your wife might choose to swim to shore amid all the rubble and rebuild a new boat. That happens all the time. And I'll walk with you if that's what y'all want to do. You and this other person have a sliver of

tiny sliver of statistical probability that you've blown up your life she's blown up hers and y'all choose to build a boat together on whatever shore y'all swim to maybe but you'll always wonder if she's sleeping with somebody else like she did with you and vice versa it's very shaky ground to build a new thing but it happens but there is no like

Then you have a hard conversation with your wife and she's like, well, I don't really want to work on this. And you're like, that's cool. I already have a four bedroom, three bath house with somebody else. And her, your buddy, her husband is like, ah, well, it didn't work out this time. That's just not how this ends, man. Right. And so the quicker you can re anchor to reality and from a place from the inside out, because dude, you have, you have created a verbal connection.

gymnastic studio that you just swirl around and ride the monkey bars in but your feet never touch the ground you've got to be able to look yourself in the mirror and say dude i blew my life up like do you feel that uh i think like i hear no i hear no remorse no like yeah yeah well no i i think it's it's one of those that i'm trying to you know obviously i haven't

Let many people, if anybody know about this situation, you know, so obviously I've only ever had my opinions weigh on it. And so having, you know, an outside source weigh in on it is obviously beneficial, but it's also making me hear things that I haven't heard, obviously things that were are accurate, but I haven't heard because I'm not telling myself those. Okay. You need to.

After this call, everyone likes to think that obviously there's a good way to land every plane in life, obviously. So, you know, I think I have been caught up trying to figure out if it's or if it's possible to land it versus actually realizing that it's not. What you're trying to do is to convince yourself that if this is actually love or this is actually viable, then

these feelings and the excitement of sleeping with somebody that's not your wife, which, dude, I don't begrudge you that one bit. You probably feel alive every time you sneak away, every time you almost get caught and you don't. It won't surprise me at all if you felt dead in your own skin for the last five, six, seven years, however long you've been with her. I get that. But you're trying to convince yourself that these feelings are somehow valid in the grand scheme of the cosmos.

And that it will justify destroying your wife's life and destroying the life of your buddy. And so two things, love is not a feeling. It's a choice you make every single day. It's a decision. And a marriage is a choice that two people make every single day of their life, man. And so whatever happens with this other person, you have to choose that every single day.

Right. Except that choice is going to be anchored into styrofoam because you know, oh, she's capable of blowing this whole thing up at any time. And I am too. And she'll know that about you. That's why statistically speaking, it's very unlikely that it continues. But again, it's part of this psychological construct you're trying to build. Like your plane is going down and you're trying to like figure out the right way to pull the cushions off of the airplane seats so you'll land comfortably.

It's not going to happen. So what I'll tell you is at the end of this thing, there's a fire. You can do a control burn right now and try, or you can just wait till the whole thing goes up in smoke, but it's going to catch fire. It's already on fire.

Yeah, I think I've just spent too much time dancing around and trying to figuring out how to make the fire as small as possible when in reality the focus should be on that the fire is happening regardless. And I need you to internalize in your guts your house has already burned to the ground. Hers too. They're gone. They're over. The marriage you had is over. The marriage she had is over.

The little plate time y'all have together is over. Y'all have to decide what we're going to build next. But bro, you've got to come back and re-anchor the ground, man. You've blown your life up and you've blown her life up and she's blown her life up. I mean, I don't know a way that you're going to sleep all night. I don't know a way that you're going to have peace at all until you sit down and have a conversation with your wife. Until you let her know you got 24 hours and I got to come clean with my buddy because I'm not going to be this guy anymore.

And there's a high statistical probability that when the smoke clears, you've got nobody. You've got no friend. You've got no girlfriend. You've got no wife. That's a high, high probability. And then you'll have to choose to do the next right thing amid that ash. But man, stop with the verbal gymnastics. Stop with the, are these feelings real? But start with, I've cheated on you. And I blew our life up. I've been doing it for almost a year now. Through the holidays, through your birthdays, I was seeing somebody else. I was sleeping with our friend. Let's start there.

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Hi, Dr. John. How's it going? It's going good. I'm a huge fan. I found your show a couple months ago and it's helped me through some things that I didn't even know I needed help through. Well, I appreciate you being with us, man. That means the world to me. Thank you. What's up? So my question is...

Basically, how do I set some boundaries with my in-laws and have them respect the grandparent rule? Or is this a me problem? And if so, how do I work through it? Oh, man. I guess my initial question is, like, where's your husband in all this? He is...

On my side. He's a coward. I'll say it for you. He's a complete and total coward. I think he tends to be a complete and total coward. And I don't feel this way either. I don't think that any of their behavior is malicious. And I think that he looks at it in a different light than maybe I do. And I don't know if it's just because maybe his parents just feel like they are able to

able to be way, way, way more involved than whereas my parents are involved, but they kind of take a step back and let us do our own thing and only give advice or recommendations. So if you could, if you, if you could wave a magic wand, what behaviors would you want your in-laws to stop doing? Undermining my parental decisions. Give me an example. Um,

Um, for instance, uh, around Christmas time, um, we were trying to lay our one-year-old down for a nap. He was very overstimulated with, you know, just the holidays, the people, the gifts, everything. Um, and just trying to give him a little bit of quiet time away because it was, you know, he, he, it was about nap time. It was time. You don't have to justify it. One-year-olds need naps. It's perfect. For sure. And, you know, um,

Went to go get him quiet, walked out of the room to go make him a bottle, turned around to go back in and met one of my in-laws.

you know, went in and picked him up and said, I didn't want to hear him crying. It's Christmas. And, you know, I'll take care of him and brought him right back out and just kind of, you know, undermined us in front of the entire family of, no, we're going to take control and we're going to handle this. So did you, had you slipped out of the room quietly? Like you kind of nodded at your husband, like I'm gonna go put him down. Or did you make an announcement to everybody? Nap time. I did make an announcement. I said, okay, I think it's time for someone to have a little bit of quiet time. Okay. Yeah.

Um, I mean, there've been, there've been countless other situations and, you know, trying to, you know, take control of, well, you know, when he's, when it's time for school, you know, and his time for him to go to school, he's two now. So we've got a couple of years, um, but requesting that they are the ones to homeschool him. Um,

Where in my head, no, he needs to go to school and he needs to be around other kids. And if I do decide to homeschool him, that will be me doing that. But why wouldn't you and or your husband, especially your husband, say, no, y'all are not homeschooling a kid. Thank you for the offer, but now we're going to send him to regular school. And just let that be a period at the end of that sentence.

I, in a way, did, but I probably didn't do it as effectively. I probably left the door a little bit like, oh, yeah, we'll see. Again, when my parents are making statements about what they are, quote unquote, going to do or not do, it's my job as their kid, I believe. And I've got some colleagues who disagree with me. That's fine. But I need to tell my mom and my dad, hey, yeah, we're not doing that. With kids.

with a definitive answer. And if I, if I'm like, if I tell my wife, like, Hey, you need to tell my mom that that's because I'm a coward. If I do that. Yeah. And see, and I think like, for instance, there have been several times that I, you know, I've shut my parents down and said, this is a boundary, you know, do not cross it. Cause you're an adult. I have no problem doing that, but I feel different doing it to his parents. You should, cause it's his parents. He needs to do it. He's got it. You're married to a coward. Why won't he stand up to his parents? Yeah.

And I don't want to talk about the childhood dynamic. Honestly, I think that's what it is. Okay. So here's the thing. You somehow have in your soul kind of a people, a people pleaser. Like you want to make sure everybody else is okay. For sure. And at the same time, you've got some pretty clear thing, pictures of what you want your life to be like and what you want for your kid and what you want for you and for your marriage, et cetera. I want you to practice writing those things down and saying them out loud.

Not like, it's time for some quiet time. It is. All right, I'm going to go put him down or her down for a nap. Everybody wave goodbye. We will see you all again in an hour and a half. Yeah. Because then it's like, well, I'm going to do some quiet time. That kind of leaves it open to, well, I mean, I'll hold him if you're tired of holding him. But like, I'm going to go take a nap. Or...

Well, we're going to be home. We're doing the homeschooling for this. No, dad, we're sending them to this elementary school. We've already decided that. Well, I don't think that's a good idea. Great. I appreciate that. But you don't get a vote because it's my kid. So we're going to send him over there. And that's your husband's conversation to have. And comically, what I would say is like a nonchalant way. Like, I don't even know if it needs to rot unless your in-laws take it to the next level.

No grandkid of mine is going to a school. All right, well, then we're going to have a serious conversation about whose kid this actually is.

Yeah. And see, so my, um, my husband is a first responder. Okay. So he's not a coward. Stop me there then. I'm talking all bad. He's not a coward. Yeah, no, but he, so he works a lot. Um, typically he, he works at two different departments. So he works, um, 48 hours on 24 hours off. Um, we're blessed enough that, you know, they live close. Um, and they, um,

take care of watching him on the days that, you know, I'm working and he's not home. So, and that's been, it's been that way since, you know, basically since he was born, I returned back to work. So they do have a lot of access to him. Okay, but also they have something else. They also have something else. This is an important distinction. In many ways, you've put them in a parental role several days a week. Mm-hmm.

And if there's not caretaker boundaries, so for instance, let's pretend they were out of the picture and your not coward husband goes to save the city he's in, right? Like he does every day and you go off to work. If you had hired a teenager to take care of your kid, you would have printed out on a Word document, nap schedule, food schedule, feeding schedule, no screens, playing, here's how you text me, et cetera. But when it comes to in-laws,

or aunts or uncles, it's very easy just to drop the kid off. For sure. And then they raise that kid like they would raise a kid. And then really quickly over time, it becomes our kid. And it's, we're all raising one big happy family raising this kid. And so really the thing here is, is you need to be pretty direct. Your husband needs to be pretty direct. Well, y'all need to get aligned first of all. Yeah. And he might say, actually, I think it'd be awesome if my parents homeschooled him.

Well, then that's a conversation you all need to have, right? And then I think you'll need to come back and circle back and say, here is our caretaker expectations. This is going to be different. We're getting them on a new schedule. And then, because again, you guys also want the best of both worlds. You want them to do it exactly as you want to do it, but you want free childcare a couple days a week too. For sure. And so sometimes these boundaries cost you like financially when your in-laws say, well, screw you then.

No young kids are going to lecture us on how to raise a baby, right? And that happens. I hope it doesn't happen. Well, and I know we've been looking into possibly doing like a preschool program a couple days a week, you know, morning time from like 8 to 12 or 8 to 1 or something like that. And I know I mentioned it, and there was kind of like this, like,

No, like we love having him and, you know, but I think it's beneficial for especially he hasn't been around other kids like in a daycare type setting. Like, I think it's important for his own emotional development to be around other kids. Then, you know, I think that that kind of got overlooked in the fact of. But wait, no, we want him like, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I guess I just like socially, like if a young child is surrounded by sturdy, regulated, caring adults, their socialization is going to be fine. Yeah. Right. They're gonna be fine. That's often a proxy for, I don't want to deal with this situation. So I just want to run other kids because if you want to run other kids, you can set up playdates. You can have kids over all the time. You can have kids over on Saturdays. I mean, you can make that happen. Mm-hmm.

I think that you're trying to avoid the harder conversations. Yeah. And I guess for me, that's a skill I want you to have because you walk around on eggshells in your own house. Yeah. And I just think you deserve more than that. And your husband sounds like he's a gangster, man. He shows up for the least of these in our communities day in and day out. I don't want him walking around on eggshells in his own house either.

Yeah, and I think he feels a lot of, you know, I think it goes back to his childhood not really being able to properly voice how he feels. That's fair. Him and I have worked through that, you know, within our relationship, and we've gotten to a good place with it. But I know there's still that wall up when it comes to how to talk to his own parents. I get that. Yeah.

And it's with difficult conversations. I get that. I mean, yeah. So I think often the conversation about protect and provide, he's an amazing protector and an amazing provider. And I think you need to have the conversation, the next level that says, hey, right now providing for us is less economic. It is family boundaries. Protection for us right now is less about can you fight and can you handle a gun and can you put out a fire? Protection is more

I want what we want for our kid voiced to everybody, whether it's a teacher, whether it's a caretaker, whether it's our in-laws. I want that universal. That's what protection looks like right now, protecting our son's heart and mind. Absolutely. And when you frame it that way, often it sinks in a little bit differently. Mm-hmm. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, for sure. Because here's what I think. I think at the end of the day, I think your frustration is with him, not with your in-laws.

That's fair. That's very fair. And if your frustration's with him, I think he has a right to know that you're this frustrated with him. Yeah. Is that fair? Absolutely. Okay. And can I tell you something else? Y'all aren't crazy. You're not crazy. He's not crazy. This isn't like a unique thing. It happens to everybody. Good to know. It just sucks. Like you're not broken. Your family's not falling apart. Nothing like that. This is just the worst. Yeah. And here's what makes it even extra worse is probably your in-laws are pretty great.

Oh, they 100% are. They're just doing the best they can with what they got because they don't have that printed off piece of paper in front of them.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I, I, like I said, I know that they're, you know, anything that they do, it's not malicious at all. We're so grateful and I'm so grateful for everything with them, you know, but I'm just trying to figure out that healthy, healthy boundary. And I think, I think you've got, got it spot on. Well, and the healthy boundary, I think for you is, I think you needed to find that for yourself.

And here's what's annoying. It won't feel a certain way. Do you get what I'm saying? Like you think there's going to come a moment when it feels so good or feels so peace. It's just that feeling is just going to morph and move because your kid's going to turn four and you're going to want to put them down for a nap. And then it'd be like, they don't need a nap. He's four. Let's go out with. And then it's, or your husband's gonna have a picture of what it looks like on Saturday. And you're going to have a different picture of what it looks like. So,

Like it's just a common thing happens all the time. Y'all aren't broken. But I think it's being honest about, hey, husband, we've worked so hard on us talking to each other. This is the next layer. Absolutely. And I feel like it's your responsibility to help lead the charge with your parents and vice versa. And so y'all get out on the table because he might say, I love the idea of my parents being the leader.

You know, my parents homeschooling. I love it. I love that idea. And you might be like, no way, Jose. That's the conversation to have. Then the boundary part just becomes y'all just saying, we're going to bite the bullet and we're going to say our boundaries out loud. And we're going to hope that everybody respects them. And we're going to deal with it when they don't. Thank you so much for the call. You're not broken. You're not failing. Your marriage is probably amazing. Like things are good. This is just a common thing that comes up in marriage.

a high majority of first-time parents, second-time parents, whatever. And it's just deciding what do we want for our kid and how do we develop the courage to communicate that to everybody? Thanks for the call. We'll be right back.

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I'm doing fantastic. So definitely can't complain. Okay, John. So here's my question for you. I'm a 27 year old female and my partner is 30 and I am obviously having conversations with him moving forward in marriage, having children. But the biggest thing I have going on for myself right now is how do I make my partner feel respected and fulfilled in our relationship?

Oh, man, there's a lot of tentacles to that question. Be more specific. So something happened for you to call. Why would you call? Yes. So we are in a time where everything in our day-to-day will be good, and we have a conversation that will come up or some sort of disagreement slash argument, and it really just like really escalates to –

you know, zero to a hundred. And it just leaves me kind of feeling in turmoil. And in those conversations, you know, my partner, I just feel like he keeps referencing that he doesn't feel heard. He doesn't feel respected in the way that I communicate. And so I think just because I keep hearing those words of not being heard, not feeling respected, I don't really know where to turn and, you know, what to work on

You know, because those conversations are always coming up in a time of a flare up, quote unquote, to say. Do you respect him? I do. And everything he does from work to how he treats people. I mean, I feel that I rave about him. Those are external. Those are external things. Those are external things. Those are certificates on the wall. Do you respect the man he is? I do. Does he make you feel safe when he walks into a room? Yes. When he sees you, do you feel loved? Yes. Okay.

So when you say, how can I best love you? What does he say? What are some actions that he has put on the table before when he said, I don't feel heard or respected? And then he says, this is how I would feel heard. This is how I would feel respected. What are some of the things he's put on the table?

to be upfront and to just speak very black and white. And if, you know, I want something, um, to just blatantly say it and that's just how his brain works. And I feel that, you know, I maybe try to protect myself to protect him. And so I try to say it and, you know, advancing neutral party type of way. And we just, you know,

you know, dance around in conversation all the time. So why don't you feel safe enough? Going back to my original question, you said when he walks in a room, your body feels safe. Why can't you just say what you need or what you want? I'm a little nervous that he'll be upset with me, even though my brain knows that he won't be.

There is just something that it's just, I have such a hard time just letting it out. Do you have an example of a time you've told him just directly in the truth and in a loving, compassionate way, and he has exploded on you or run from you? No, I mean, that's, I, that's, I, it's this internal. And I've noticed that ever since he's pointed that out, that I do that in a lot of areas in my life. I was going to ask like, where else do you hide from him? Yeah.

What do you mean by hide from him? You know, like what are things going on in your mind that he doesn't know about? I would just say there's just some anxiety there. I know, that's what I'm asking. What is that? Let me ask it another way. Why is your body through feelings, through anxiousness, through biting your tongue, through talking in circles, those are all ways your body's trying to keep you safe.

Why is your body decided that you being seen and heard is not safe? That's a good question. Because here's what I think is happening. I think he is probably pretty direct. Probably like, hey, just tell me what you need so I can love you. And you make these big laps around the building. And he's like, what? And then it feels frustrating. And then it feels deceptive. And then he goes to bed every night feeling like he doesn't really know you.

And you feel that gap. And every time you try to bridge that gap, your body electrocutes you and is like, no, no, no, no, no, don't get that close. Right? Yeah, I think you definitely hit the nail on the head for sure. So let me ask you, why? I think over time, maybe that when we've been pushed into those conversations and moments of zero to 100, that...

It's either like, do I need to leave and do we need to take a break? So I feel that over time because those conversations have alluded to that. From him or from you? From both. I would say majority myself and I feel that I put myself in this place. So when you get in one of those situations where you're going zero to 100, do you explode on him or do you build a quick concrete fortress and hide? Fortress and hide. I shut down in conversations. Okay.

And so at some point, does he find himself inadvertently banging on the door to try to get in? I definitely wouldn't say to that degree. Like even in those conversations, we both try to have respect for one another and to never raise your voice and things like that. That's not respect. That's not respect. Y'all try to be polite.

Okay. And you'll try to be polite so that if something goes wrong, both of y'all can say, I didn't do fill in the blank. I didn't yell. I didn't hit anybody. I didn't punch a hole through the concrete. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't. And so it's two teams playing football and both of y'all are sitting your defense out and nobody will hike the ball.

Yeah. And then one of you just gets so mad, like, let's play ball. And the other's like, well, you know, and then I get in and then it's like, I just, I want to go, I want to go be with somebody that will play offense. Yeah. And I want to go be able to play offense sometimes. So circling all the way back, take him off the table. I want to talk to you. Who told you the safest thing for you to do is just to be quiet?

I always grew up that way. And it was a very, unless you're spoken to, you don't really say what you need to say. So yeah, I think I've always grown up with, especially from my father, that was his big, unless you're spoken to, your opinion doesn't really matter. So have you heard me say on the show,

The things that kept you safe as a kid will destroy your adult relationships. Yeah, that's definitely where I'm at right now. Okay. So here's, it's really a binary choice. You continue running on the same roads that were built out of safety and necessity as a kid. And you can run on those roads and you will not die. You'll stay alive and you'll be alone. And you might be alone sharing a bed with somebody that says, I do and that I love you. But that gap will always exist. Or...

You have to choose to do something that feels initially unsafe and unnatural with somebody that you know to be safe. Okay. And that means you have to go into a season of practicing discomfort. Okay. Does that make sense? Because here's what I, the walls you built will affect your finances. It will affect you professionally. It will affect your sex life. It will keep every, you'll never be able to fully let go.

Yeah, it's funny you say that too, because that's something that I hear from him of like, I feel that you've built up this brick wall and how are you supposed to let me in? And like you said, even in the bedroom, so many different areas that he's... This person is showing up and this person is every day like, let me be there for you. Let me be there for you. And I just cannot...

Let me rephrase that because I can. I need to let those walls down because you are right. And it is impacting my life in so many other ways. I need you to not let those walls down. I want you to try courageously to bash through them because letting the walls down is still a passive stance. It mimics bravery. I guess that's not fair. It is initially brave, that first step. But I just want you to think of it like you come home and you see this man. Do you love this guy?

Yes. Oh my gosh. Like the moment we met. Is he a good guy? Oh, that moment we met. That's like Dawson's Creek, but like you've grown to love this person, right? Yes. Okay. And he does the things he shows up. Always. Okay.

So you've got this person that you see, that you love, that you've probably thought about making plans with down the road, right? And you'd be crazy if you haven't had that imaginary picture pop into your head of a fireplace and a Thanksgiving table and your four boys home from Christmas and their girlfriends that you hate but kind of love, right? Yes. And if you have a picture of an older, wrinklier, grayer version of this guy at the end of that tape, right? So you have been there.

And you come home and he sees you and everything in his world lights up. But there's a sheet of plexiglass in between you. And he just can't touch you. Yeah, exactly. And the same with your customers. I don't know what you do for a living, but the same with your bosses. Yeah.

Yeah, it's very true. And I work with, you know, I'm my boss's right-hand gal. And that is a topic that we have talked about of, you know, I feel like we work together 24-7, but I don't really let you know who Victoria is. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. And if we were in a different call, I would ask you about your sex life and I can almost guarantee it. I can pinpoint where you struggle. Yeah. Fair? For sure. Okay. Yeah. Here's the thing.

You have to make a choice that I'm going to be seen and I'm going to be known, but it's not something you can lob on him. That's a decision you have to make. And you're going to have to practice a thing that I like where you put your hand on your chest or put your fist in your chest and you have to look in the mirror 10 times a day for 30 days. You want a homework assignment? Will you actually do it?

100% yes. For 30 days from today, I want you to go look in the mirror and put your fist in your chest and look yourself dead in the eyes and say, I love this girl. And I want you to pause. I want you to drop your shoulders. And I want you to say it again. I love this girl. I can do that. And I want you to say it. Well, hold on. I'm not done. I want you to say it 10 times. And then I want you to say, she deserves to be heard.

And then you got to go get weird and you're going to have to tell, here's what I'm going to send you. I'm going to send you. And it's going to sound pedantic. It's going to sound silly, okay, what I'm going to send you. But I'm going to mail you all of the questions for humans cards for free for couples and the intimacy deck, okay? But here's what I want you to do. They're not complicated, but you have to commit to telling the truth. And so like the intimacy deck, when it says, what's one thing you really used to be into in the bedroom and you're not anymore? You have to actually answer that.

What's our favorite memory of us kissing before? What's your least favorite memory of us? Cause like, you gotta be honest. Yeah. And you need to have a series where you meet once a week with him and you say, all right, here's three things that scared me this week. And here's three things that I thought were incredible about this week. Okay. You've got to practice being seen and known. And then y'all just need to come up with some sort of signal. Like I'm flooded. I'm too much.

I'm going to back up. And he's going to say, okay, cool. Because all you're doing is practicing. You're practicing a thing that got you electrocuted as a kid by the one man who you should have been able to anchor into for your entire life, your dad. And he weaponized your feelings, your emotions. He weaponized your personhood and said, your personhood is mine. And when I want to see it, I'll let you know. Yeah. Instead of celebrating the crazy bananas, wild little San Diego girl you were growing up.

Yeah, I could not agree more. And I think, you know, again, that we are in this period of our relationship of, and, you know, he wants to so badly propose and he's talked about it and he just needs the utmost confidence in myself. And I feel that I do as well. And because...

we've both gone through families of divorce and all of these things. And so if we can have those hard conversations and put in the work now to give our future children a childhood and, you know, all of those healthy kind of relationships, like 100%, this has just been so helpful. And if this can get me there, like, I don't know, this...

The best phone call ever. Well, it's kind of like I just handed you a workout plan. So for the next year, you need to go lift weights. Yeah. Like the work is yours. Are you willing to, for the first time in your life, how old are you? 27. Okay. Are you, for the first time in a quarter century, are you willing to practice being seen and heard? Because here's the other side of being seen and heard. He might look at you and say, I don't want to propose. And that will not make what you did wrong. That won't make you wrong.

that will mean you've been giving a pretty remarkable theater performance to be his girlfriend. Yeah. And hopefully, my fingers crossed, because I'm a romantic, just kind of an oogie-googie romantic, I hope that he sees you and gets to know you. Like, I don't like that. Or, I love that.

And by the way, I've been married for, gosh, 22 and a half years now. I found out my wife said something the other day and I looked at her and I started laughing. I was like, I don't know you. You what? I had no idea. But can I tell you, that's my freaking favorite part. I found out something the other night about one of her old boyfriends and her. I did not know. I didn't know. But here's the thing. It made me die laughing. Started dying laughing because here's why. She's not going anywhere. And I'm not either. You get what I'm saying?

100%. And so when you grow up in homes of divorce, I just saw this recently. I love it. When you grow up in a home of divorce, you realize, oh, somebody could leave. That's a thing. You can just leave. And so what you do is you try really hard not to let the other person leave. And that almost guarantees at some point they don't know you and leaving is still on the table. The other side of that is I'm going to be fully seen and known.

and we're going to become braided together like a like one of those ocean ropes that nobody can pull apart right it's awesome so let's call this what it is it's day one some of this may be hard so it may be that you all start a journal together that you put on his pillow at night that he writes in then he puts it on your pillow the next morning or whatever and some of these things are easier done via letter some of these things are hard just to sit down and just say it in front of somebody like here's what i think about this and i don't like this and i want to get to know you here

But some of it is we're just going to stop going to fancy restaurants and pretending like everything's okay. We're going to go to crummy restaurants and just chit chat. And you can chit chat in nice restaurants, but it's just a vibe. I don't get to know you. Here's one thing that I asked my wife to do last year. Make me a syllabus of you. What are the 10 podcasts you listen to? I don't know what you listen to anymore. What are 10 bands you like? I know what you used to like. I don't know what you even listen to anymore. What are 10 books you want me to read? That you read, not that you want me to, that you read, that you love. Because I want to get to know you.

I might read those books. Some of those books I've gotten into, did not like them. A couple of them I've loved. Podcasts, one podcast I was listening to and I was like, I know her. Like, you want to meet her? Like, I was a friend of mine. She didn't even know we were connected. So all I have to say is, it's good to know each other. Here's books I like. Here's movies I like. Here's music I love. I'd love to learn to dance. I'd love to learn to sing. I'd love to just learn to let go. And this happens inside your chest. I'm Proudy Crystal. Day one. You love that girl. She's worth being hurt. We'll be right back.

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All right, we're back. Something cool happened. What is it, Kelly? All right. This is from, I'm hoping I'm pronouncing her name correctly, Myrta. Myrta. Yes. All right. She says, we are a family of five with three teens. Dinner time has always been a priority in our family ever since the kids were little. I always made dinner together happen. Now that the kids are older with jobs and high school and activities, it's nearly impossible to have everyone together at home at one time.

I've had to grieve that a little bit. It was hard to let go of it. However, I decided to replace dinner time with questions for humans, parents, and teen cards. I gather the family around 9 o'clock as many times a week as I can, and we do a few cards. When I first brought up the idea, the teens rolled their eyes at me and gave me the, bruh, why? I'm assuming she has sons because I've heard that. My husband was skeptical. Let me tell you, it has been amazing. Better than I expected.

It's not about the questions on the card. It's the fact that each person has a space to talk, a chance to express an idea or dream. There are no wrong answers except a shrug or an I don't know. I've learned new things about my family. It has started conversations that otherwise would never have happened. It has brought about admittance to failures or dreams.

We just finished the deck a few nights ago, and my husband has already asked if there's a second edition. Oh, yeah. Dude, that's awesome. So, hey, here's what I love. We grieved it. The thing that was is no more just because of time and circumstance. But I'm not going to give up on it. I'm going to create a new thing, and it's going to look different. And it's amazing. Yeah, because sometimes when you're so legalistic about this thing that we do and you grasp onto it so tight—

You lose it anyway because you're forcing it to happen. And yet, if you want your kids to have jobs, like my son works two nights a week, they're going to be gone. And they have lives. This is what's supposed to be happening. They're supposed to be that kind of peeling away a bit, but she just found a different way to make it work. And I think it's important to push through teenagers, I don't want to or I don't feel like it.

Those are just soft, squishy boundaries that they want to see. Do you like when you punch right through that? Right. And then like in this case, they end up loving it. Of course, it's very important. And it feels good in their nervous system. Right. And all kids love hearing. I told my son some like I will go back to one of the greatest things I've ever did was driving from.

to Texas just because I flying now is kind of chaotic for me and I lost my pre-check because I'm an idiot. And so like the thought of, of doing that during Christmas. So my son and I just drove to Texas 12 hours, one way drove all across the state, visiting family and friends. Then we drove 12 hours back. He learned some stuff. I, I, he asked me questions about childhood and stories and I told him stories that he could not believe that

But we got to know each other and vice versa. I got to hear his thoughts, but it was just amazing. Never would have got there. Never would have got there. So good call. Way to go. God, I don't know. That just cheers me up. Those little questions for humans cards, man, all over the country. People are changing their lives. Thread. Thanks for being with us. Stay in school. Don't do drugs. Bye.