I’m in an Interracial Relationship and My Family Doesn’t Know
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How do I tell my very conservative parents that I am in an interracial relationship right now? For them, it's kind of like if you come from two different cultures, it's just not going to work. You're not going to get along. You'll end up in a divorce. The fact that you even have to ask that question in 2025 makes my stomach turn. What's going on? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. So grateful that you're with us. We're talking about your mental and emotional health.

and your relationships, whatever you got going on in your life. Everybody I know is going through something. Sometimes it's really good stuff. Sometimes it's just challenging stuff, and sometimes it's dark and really hard. And that's what we do on the show, man. I sit with hurting people who are trying to figure out what's the next right move for me, for my marriage, for my kids, for my mental, emotional health, whatever you got going on. Here's my promise. I'll

I'll sit with you and we'll figure out what's the next right move. Give me a buzz. 1-844-693-3291. It's 1-844-693-3291 or go to johndeloney.com slash ask A-S-K. All right, let's go down the street here in Nashville, Tennessee and talk to Jess. What's up, Jess? Hi, how's it going? I am rocking on to the break of dawn. How about you?

I'm a bucket of sunshine. Dude, we need that in Nashville. It is G-R-A-Y out here. It is great. Yeah, it is very cold. Bring some of your bucket of sunshine out here to the office, man. That's awesome. So what's up? So I am calling to basically ask, how do I tell my very conservative parents that I am in an interracial relationship right now? The fact that you even have to ask that question in 2025 makes my stomach churn.

Yeah. Like forget the conservative. I know some very, very concerned. In fact, one of my closest friends in the world is, is way more conservative than me in an inter, like long-term inter, like what is, what does politics have to do with this?

I think they're just very traditional. Maybe that's a better word for it. They're just very conservative, traditional. I even know super traditional. I don't even know if that's the right word. Because I know some crunchy, make-their-own granola. I don't know. I'm just thinking of my friends in a racial marriage. I guess the fact that you're calling and asking this or you have apprehension about asking it is that you know your parents think

two people in a romantic relationship from different ethnic or cultural backgrounds is somehow wrong. It won't work out. What does that mean?

I think that for them, from my understanding, for them, it's kind of like, well, if you're in two different backgrounds, marriage is hard enough. And so if you come from two different cultures, it's just not going to work. You're not going to get along. You'll end up in a divorce. The world's going to crash and burn. We're all going to die. Well, that's just stupid. God, so stupid. Here's the thing. Like...

I guess my, I have two kind of paths for just what I would call, I'm trying to think of a nice way to say this. I have two paths forward in my personal life on how I deal with abject ignorance. Path one is I don't engage. Like when people like they'll, they'll, uh, I posted something yesterday. It's the, it's, it's the start of the new year when, when we're recording this, it won't come out. And I think till late January, maybe even February, but, um,

I just remind people at the beginning of the year, like, you have to get a will. You got to get a will, right? And 70-something percent of Americans don't have a will, which with kids is madness, right? And the number of people who send me a direct message that are like, you're crazy. You're an idiot. They should be getting a trust and whatever.

It's like, okay, dude, I'm not going to engage with that. That's like telling people who are 100 pounds overweight that they need to be doing cross – no, they don't. They need to go for a walk, right? So I'm not going to even address it because they're stepping over $100 bills to pick up nickels. I'm not going to address it. The second is in your situation, you can't not address it.

And so my, when I have to address something, when I have to address abject ignorance, my commitment to myself is not to lose my honor, my respect, and my dignity, not to cash in my character because of somebody else's ignorance.

So I am not going to get in a mudslinging contest. I'm not going to call names. I'm not even going to give you a right to make me angry. The fact that you are saying things that are, are believing things that are so insanely ignorant. Um, you've already removed your vote from my vote box. You don't get a vote in my life.

But you're my mom and dad, and I do believe you honor your mom and dad. I do believe that. That doesn't mean you do whatever they say. That means that I'm going to treat you with dignity and respect even when I have to give you hard things that you disagree with. And so I would sit down and be direct and say, I'm dating so-and-so, and he is fill-in-the-blank when it comes to anything you think they're going to object to.

Right. And I believe in pulling the bullets out of the chamber. And so I would say, I know this is going to be hard for you. I know you might be embarrassed to tell your friends, this is who I'm dating. I've been dating him for a long time and I love him. And, um, I hope you guys will be supportive of this. And then that's the end of the conversation, but I'm going to, I'm going to tell him quietly. I'm going to tell him calmly. And if they want to fight, I'll put a hand up and say, Hey, I'm not going to have this fight with you. I'm not going to have this fight with you. And here's the other thing. Um,

I'm ignorant about a number of things. I know I am. I had a conversation yesterday about something I believe deeply, and I was just like, they walked me through it. I was like, oh, gosh, I'm really wrong on this. It was a science thing. I was just wrong. And so I always want to lead with some sort of compassion for ignorant folks, folks who are, I don't want to say ignorant folks as an identity, but like folks who are ignorant on a topic or on a thing. I want to be compassionate.

Because often people will sit me down. I remember one time I took a job at a university in California and I ended up backing out of the job. It was a whole drama thing. I hurt a lot of people. It was a bad deal on my part. But my dad, who's a lifetime Texan, I'm a grown man. I'm 35. I've got kids. I've got no, no, I didn't have any kids yet. But my dad pulls me in his back room and starts walking me through the tax code in this area in California I was going to be living in.

And I ran a division at a university. I had a doctorate. I mean, I wasn't a dumb guy, and I wasn't a kid. I was a grown man. And I remember thinking to myself, he's trying to love me the best way he knows how. And in a sideways way, he's trying to tell me, I really don't want you to move that far away because we love having you all close. And he did that through trying to tell me, you know, you shouldn't be living there, the tax codes, whatever.

Like I get to pick, do I want to go to war with a guy who's trying to love me? And he opened his toolkit and didn't have the tool that I needed at the moment, right? But he was doing the best he could. Or can I, with compassion, smile and say, this guy really loves me and he doesn't want me to leave. That's amazing. I wish that for every young son that his dad wants him around.

So in this way, maybe your mom and dad would be embarrassed to tell their friends and shame on them if they want to control your life, if they need your life to look a certain way so that they can still enter their social circles and feel however they want to feel. Shame on them.

And maybe they've read the wrong internet article over the last five years and they believe with all their heart, if my daughter goes down this path, her life's going to be really difficult and challenging and she doesn't see it yet. So we're going to try to love her the best we can. That's fair. You know what I'm saying? So they're wrong on both counts, right? And I'm just, I'm, I'm going to, I'm not going to, I'm not going to cash in my character over somebody else's challenges. Right. Right. Yeah.

What would you do? So they currently do not live within driving distance of me. Is this something that I should wait for like a time when I can like fly out and talk to them in person? I mean, you know, your parents better than me. I don't know. I mean, I, I mean, I like having hard conversations in person and I guess I'm trying to think like, I don't, I don't know this. I'm trusting you that this is this big of a deal in your house.

You know what I mean? Right, right, right. I'm trying to think. Like if my daughter Josephine went to med school and she met a professional jacks player who plays jacks on the street, you know, like the little ball, the game ball. And she'd been dating a surgeon. And she dumped – she had a fiance who was going to be a surgeon. They broke up. And she's like, Dad, I've fallen for a professional jacks player. He's a street hustler, and I love him. I love him. All right?

That would be a big shift for me. And I would think instantly of, oh, this is not going to go well. Right? Right. And so I think the conversation overall would go better if we were having that in person. And by the way, I also know I can't do a thing about who she loves. I can't do a thing about who she loves. All I can do is make it to where she doesn't want to be around me or she does.

Right. Right. And so but I think that conversation would go better in person because I'd be able to see her on her body language. Oh, she's really struggling with something right now. She's she's or oh, my gosh, she's in love.

Right. Right. She is stone in love and I have a choice. I can support this thing and I can be like, I want to meet him and he's going to come over with me and we're going to like, I'm going to take him out to breakfast or whatever, or I can choose to disconnect with my daughter. Right. But I would like that in person, but that's not always available these days. Right. So I think for you, how much of this is built up in your head or how much of this it's going to be like a big dramatic shock? Um,

I don't think... Well, it shouldn't be a huge shock. I think that I've always kind of had a gut feel like...

that, you know, I mean, I'm not really particular on the race of the person that I date, but in the past, like whenever we would like walk past an interracial couple or we have a family member, we have a couple of family members who have been in interracial relationships and they, when they make their little snide comments or they're like, see, that didn't work out. Or I, you know, what,

whatever it may be. Um, and I voiced my opinion of, I don't think that's why that went wrong, or I don't think it's that bad or like, it doesn't bother me. Why does it bother you? Like they kind of give the, well, you just don't, you just don't know yet. You don't have the experience yet. Yeah. Yes. I mean, I mean, it's just such an, like an ignorant way to see the world, but here's the thing. Like, um, they don't get a vote. How old are you?

I am 25. Okay. Yeah, they don't get a vote. And I think there's a hard grieving season when if you imagine like a small, like a jewelry box sitting on your kitchen table and in that box is four or five or six people that you quote unquote give a vote to. They get to call you at the middle of the night and say, what are you doing? And you'll actually go change your behavior. Mine has about six, maybe seven people now that I'm older in it. Okay. My kids aren't in that box. I love my mom and dad dearly. They're not in that box.

I have the greatest in-laws on planet earth. They're not in that box. My wife is, my buddy Todd is, my buddy John is, my buddy Kevin is, my buddy John Noel is, right? Like they're in that box. Okay. And if they call me, which all those men I've mentioned have and say, hey, you have to stop doing this or why did you do this? Or why did you post this? Or, hey, I just got a call from your wife and she's worried about like, I stopped what I'm doing and listening.

And there's something heartbreaking when you're 25 or 27 and realize people that you've cared about and trusted and loved are no longer in that decision-making tree for you. William Glasser calls it your quality world. Pleasing them is no longer in your quality world, and it can feel disconcerting. It can feel unmooring. Right? Yeah. And so there's some grief like, oh my gosh, this is my parents. And by the way,

This is gonna be very counterculture. I'm gonna get some mean comments about this. I Also used to tell students all the time when they'd come in and tell me I am I'm gay I am struggling with X or I'm struggling with Y or I'm dropping out of college or I'm my parents have been obsessed with me being a physician and I'm gonna go into I'm changing my major to painting right or whatever. I always told them your parents get a minute and

give your parents the dignity of a minute. And I know it's cool to be like, they don't get a minute. They need to do, they get a minute. They get a minute, right? Like, like they have a picture of the world and now that picture is going to be different. I'm going to be graceful and give it to them. Cause what's, what's the, what's the option, right? We're going to fight. I'm going to go to war. I'm going to cut you off. We have a whole show coming up here in the next couple of weeks about, about that, about people just cutting their parents off just because of a bad first conversation or whatever. So again, at the end of the day,

Don't cash in your character and your dignity. They are clearly ignorant on this issue. I didn't even know this was still – I'm going to be honest. I'm ignorant that this is still an issue, but that's on me. That's completely on me. And every mom and dad, when their little precious baby is born, they just have a snap picture of what that Thanksgiving table is going to look like when they have grandkids.

And when they find out we're not getting grandkids or my son is not marrying an astronaut and my daughter's not marrying a like whatever. They get a minute. Fine. They get a minute. They don't get to be disrespectful and they don't get to be rude and they don't get to call me stupid. But I'm going to give them a minute and I'm not going to lose my character and dignity and respect moving forward.

I can appreciate that. You know your mom and dad better. So if you think a phone call or a FaceTime is good, if you think a letter is better, if you think a personal visit to fly out there is better, great. You know what I mean? I think that's awesome. Okay. And I should probably have it without.

My significant other there? Or should I bring him along? No, I would. Okay. Because it feels like a move. If you know it's going to cause a thing, it feels like a move. And I'm not, here's, suddenly he becomes a tool you're using to get your mom and dad. And that's not right. He doesn't deserve to be used like that. Right. Right. Okay. And he doesn't deserve to feel the radial blast of their ignorance if they choose to detonate it. Right.

Right. That's true. Yeah. Thank you so much for the call. Again, I shouldn't be kind of speechless. I didn't know. I didn't know. Well, whatever is what it is. Yeah, that's my two things for dealing with just abject ignorance. I don't engage it. I don't engage it. Or I commit to not losing my integrity in the process.

And I keep very close tabs on who has a vote in my life. And sometimes people opt out and it breaks my heart. It makes me sad and I grieve it. And then I go find meaning in it and move on.

So thanks for the call, Jess. I hope it all goes well. Let me know how the conversation goes. I will say this. If you ever have to have a hard conversation with your mom and dad, often writing it out ahead of time is very helpful because it keeps it from getting overly emotional real quick and it keeps you from instantly going back into some of your childhood roles instantly. So maybe take time to write it out and let me know how the conversation goes. Thanks for the call. We'll be right back.

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Let's go out to the 512. Let's go out to Austin, Texas and talk to Andrew. What's up, Andrew? How we doing, man? Hey, Dr. John. Thank you so much for taking time to take my call. I really appreciate it. I'm a big fan of the show. You got it, my man. What's up, man? So I wanted to ask you, what is your thought on a grown adult man in his mid-late 20s having only female friends and having no guy friends? Hmm.

Well, tell me more about that. Or let me ask you this. Why does that concern you? Or where does that concern come from?

Well, it's starting to... Other people are beginning to think that it's odd, from family members to other acquaintances to other people in my female friend's life that think it's odd and weird. Oh, like their boyfriends or husbands? Well, just people in general. They think that...

Someone, a guy in his mid-late 20s who's heterosexual having only female friends and no guy friends is odd. Okay. So for a second, I don't care what they think. What do you think? I'm not sure because I've given a lot of thought into it and I perceive it only as just friends. However, of course, everyone's going to have different opinions on sex.

Andrew, let me back out. What do you think? Okay. Just pause right there. Just sit with that. My next question would be, do you want guy friends? Have you always craved guy friends? What makes female friendship safer than male friendship?

I think what I've learned is just like through my experience, like I've just clicked with females. Like I've tried to connect with guy friends. Like I'll give you a little backstory if you don't mind. Um, so I graduated high school, um, didn't know what I wanted to do right after high school. So I went into plumbing. Um, I was doing my apprenticeship and, um,

I got really dirty with the job and I realized this isn't what I want to do for 40, 50 years with my life. So at the age of 20, I enrolled in community college. I started college a little late because some people are graduating high school already and college for two, three years. So while I was there, I met these two girls there. We had classes together.

We started off, you know, casual, just studying together. There were some other guys I met too, but like we didn't, I didn't click with them. Like there was no like spark like us. It was more like an acquaintanceship. Like I would ask for their Snapchat and social media. They would do it to me, but I would message them and they wouldn't want to hang out. However, with these girls, I would message them and they would be down to hang out. So they, um,

Would be down to hang out with me and then we would go out to eat. We would study together and we would go look at different things together, go to the store. And so. So you had, you have shared interest with them. Like if you're being fully honest, some of these women that are your friends, if y'all were shopping together or doing whatever y'all do together and one of them turned and grabbed you by the face and kissed you and said, I've wanted to do that for a long time. Would that be amazing? Or would you feel like that's a gross violation of your friendship?

I honestly wouldn't know because I feel like that's just unexpected because I approached it kind of as friendship and so did they. And I will say, though, one of the girls at the time had a boyfriend. And from what I understood at the time, that boyfriend didn't really like me. Yeah, but I mean, that's to be understood too, right? Yeah.

I don't know if my, if my girlfriend in college was always leaving me to go hang out with another heterosexual guy, I would always assume that that guy's like got some spark for her, right? Whether it's, it doesn't have to be sexual or romantic, but even if it's intellectual and spiritual and like, I would be jealous, especially as a young kid, as a college kid, like I want to have, I want, I want to be her everything. Right. So that's, that's to be understood. I get that.

And so I wouldn't hate on the guy for being like, hey, why do you keep leaving me to go hang out with this other dude? That's a fair question, I think. I think the bigger thing is – but the way you've described your life, it seems to be that you're always looking at your life through other people's eyes to see how it reflects.

Not necessarily because this, okay. So this actually, I guess I'll just continue with my story. So after community college, I went to a four-year university.

I didn't graduate until 25 because obviously I started college late. But while I was in college, I met more girls there. And we just clicked. I met them in class. What does clicked mean? It sounds like when some dude's like, no, I just met her and I just knew. It's like, nah, no you didn't. You just did a bunch of things towards it. When you say clicked, what does that mean? I guess in a way, it meant like we...

we just found a connection of friendship. Like we, what does that mean? We buy music. Y'all respond to each other's texts in a timely fashion. Like all those things. Like we had similar interests on what we studied. We had, uh, like the music, like the same foods, um, the same music. We like to go out to the, to the college bars and stuff like that. And I tried to do that with guys. There's,

There's a thing. And I would ask them for their social media and their Snapchats and all that stuff. And I was like, hey, we should hang out, you know, maybe go to the college bars and watch the game. And with the guy acquaintances I met in class, I was like, yeah, I'll see. Let me see if I'm off.

But with the girls, it would be like, yeah, I'm down. And sure enough, they would text me, hey, when are you coming to get us and all that. And we would go to parties. We would go to football games, the tailgates. We would go to the college bars. Tell me about your romantic interests. Are you dating anybody?

I'm not dating anyone. And here's the thing though. I'm also, I'm not a gay guy because I know a lot of, a lot of people think that, Oh, if a guy has a bunch of girlfriends, he's gay. Well, there's that, there's that stereotype, right? Like the gay friend. But yeah, I mean, I mean, you gotta be pretty simple minded just to dump into that. Right. Um, so in, in that, in just assume everything's a stereotype, but like,

Are you interested in dating? Is that just not a priority for you? I am, actually. It's something I've been thinking about because I'm getting older. And after college, well, during college, I was working a part-time job just at some places. And at those part-time jobs, I would just talk to people. I'm very social. And, of course, when I would talk to people, I would mainly...

I guess I know you were wondering what the word click means, but I would just in a way catch the attention of girls and I would just have that connection with girls of friendship. Like we would like the same things. We talked about the same things. We would go out, um,

say music and stuff. And I would do that with guys. But again, it was more like an acquaintance. It was like, yeah, maybe we can hang out sometime, bro. Yeah. So let me get your Snapchat or your Instagram or your social media, but nothing would come about it. Sure. And I would message them and then I would do the same thing for the girls and it would be so down. Yeah. So let me say it like this. Let me say like this. Let me interrupt you a little quick. I think the question you have to ask yourself is twofold. Number one, are the people telling you you're weird for having sex?

Um, the vast majority or all of your close personal friendships being women. Do you care what they think? That's number one. And I can't answer that for you. You have to ask that question. Number two, are you desiring male friendships and you're frustrated or, or kind of, uh, grieving the fact that you're only seemingly able to click to use your words with women?

Because if you're like, man, I don't care, boy or girl, man or woman, I don't care. I just want to hang out and have a great time with people. And I want to be there to support my friends when they have needs and to celebrate them when they win and vice versa. And I don't care if they're male or female. Then it doesn't matter what other people think. Who cares? If you're asking a deeper question, which is, why don't I ever get this quote unquote click?

With men, because I want some dude friends. I want some guys to share romantic, like, how's your life? And what's it going to be like if I ever become a dad? And what's it like on the job market? Like, if that's the challenge you're struggling with, then the simple yet really challenging answer is the word click probably means comfortable and or easy.

And I think the assumption is if something doesn't quote unquote click, if it doesn't come really naturally and really quickly, then somehow it's not right. And so if you desire friendships with dudes, then you've got a sample set of data that tells you guys don't just respond to some strange dude being like, dude, give me your number. That happens to me on a plane every once in a while.

Like somebody, some influencer will run into me on a plane and be like, dude, give me your number. And then I'll get a text message, a random text message like, hey, dude, come to my house. We're working out this morning. I've never gone. Not one time. Zero times.

But if somebody reaches out and I meet somebody on a plane, they're like, hey, dude, I'm writing a book. I'd love for you to read it. Or, hey, I'd love to check in with you and grab coffee because I want to talk about something. Well, that's something I like to do. I like to get to know somebody before I just show up to your house and start lifting weights with you, right? And so just because I don't connect on that initial thing, I just got a data point.

Yeah, dude, I'm not just going to go to your house and randomly sit in your sauna if I don't know you. That's not going to be how I want to meet people, right? And so I think you have a data set that says, all right, I'm asking for Snapchat. I'm asking for Instagram. They give it to me. They never respond to me. If you want to pursue hanging out with dudes, man, then you have to do something different, something that feels not like it clicks. Do the next hard thing, right? But if you don't care –

then, man, I think you're reaching that age. How old are you? Did you say you were 27, 28? I'm 27. Yeah. You're reaching that age when more so than when you're younger. It's easier to just move from group to group to group when you're younger. When you get older, you realize, oh, there's limited people in our sphere, people we work with or people we were in school with. And suddenly,

People's values and their lifestyle behavior choices begin to change and they have kids and they don't have time to go out or they have boyfriends or girlfriends that take up more of their time and it should, right? It's a romantic interest. We're building a life together. So you're in a season when life rules relationships just change naturally. When those really great college relationships begin to thin out a little bit and you realize, oh, we were really good friends for a season and you grieve it and it's a bum deal.

And so you're going to have some of those friends that just naturally their boyfriends don't like them hanging out with other dude. Or maybe they don't want to hang out as much anymore, but they use their boyfriend as an excuse. All those things are playing to this here. You're just at a natural inflection point at 27. So I think you need to ask yourself, what am I comfortable with, dude? I'm the one that has to look me in the eye every morning in the mirror. I don't care what other people say. These are my friends. These are my friends. These are my friends. And then go from there. How does that sit with you?

Well, I'm actually don't mind it, to be honest. Then who cares? Who cares? They don't get a vote, dude. They don't get a vote. You know what I'm saying? The thing is also is over the last two years, I've noticed some things have come up. I guess that's in a way why I'm calling is because... So here's an example. So obviously, I graduated college late. So last year...

We went to go visit one of my friends we met in college, but she's now in grad school. She's in California. And then me and one of my friend girls went to go visit her and we did a road trip. And on the way back, we stayed in Mexico at one of my family relatives house.

And we're just, you know, introduce them, my friend to my aunts and uncles and all that. And then we're just having dinner. And then my aunt kind of asked the elephant in the room was, and was like, so how long have y'all been to been together? And now, and then we, and her kind of laughed and like, Oh, we're not together. We're just friends. And my aunt had the most confused look on her face. Like, yeah, but you're a grown man. Let her have it. Let her have that confusion.

Like her confusion is natural, and I'm glad that she felt comfortable enough to look confused in front of you. And yes, it is not inside the bell curve. It's not normal. I would say normal. That's a bad way to say it. It's not common for 26, 25, 27-year-old dudes to take trips with plutonic girlfriends across the country.

to go visit other plutonic girlfriends. I just, I don't hear about that happening very often is what I would say. Exactly. Especially with not some ulterior romantic interest. Right. And so if your aunt who's 50, 60, 70 goes, what? Let her, let her have it. You know what I mean? It's you that gets to decide whether that judgment or that curiosity she has, or that confusion is somehow an indictment or it's just straight up confusion. Huh? Never seen that before.

Right? Like it's like when my grandmother asked me about like why I had so many earrings. Well, when I was 18, I don't know. I was just punching holes in my head to try to be cool. Like, but I could just look at my grandmother and be like, she's never seen this. She doesn't know. Or I could be like, she doesn't look like dude. And so I chose to give her the benefit of the doubt. And my dad said, you should take those off before you go see her again. And I did. Right. So it's like, I get to hold on to that contempt or to that question.

Or, yeah, that's a natural question somebody's got to ask. That's fine. That's fair. You get what I'm saying? Yeah. And more recently, in the last couple months, my parents kind of brought me aside and were asking me, so how's your dating life going? Who are all these young women you're hanging out with? Y'all are going on trips to the beach. Yeah.

Y'all are going on, going out dancing. Like I will say though, one of our favorite things to do, cause now that I'm graduated, we still have friends that are graduated as well. And also met some people from the work and I've introduced them to the different girls I met in college and they've, they've become friends because of me. Awesome. And,

One of our favorite things to do, honestly, is to go out to the downtown Austin, go to the clubs, the bars, take mini road trips. And we do like to go dancing. And I'm not going to lie. Sometimes this dancing involves slow dancing and being on all grinding on each other and stuff like that when you listen to hip hop songs and all that. And I'm not great at grinding. Never been a grinder. I'm not good.

Okay. But, but like, are you interested in these people? And then, and then, and then my, my family, they're just like saying, we're seeing you post these girls on social media. We're seeing you go on trips with them. So like, is, are these like girlfriends or is them dating or is this like, I know, I know, I know dude. And then, and then, uh, my dad, he,

He was like, I feel like you need some guy friends that way you could learn how to be a guy because like, I mean, it's true though. Like I don't have guy friends where, Hey, we're going to go fishing and get some beer and talk about trucks and football and stuff like that. Like I don't have that. Do you want that? In a way I do. Okay. Then go get that. Go get that. And by the way, that's, that's, that's as stereotypical of guys just get together and talk about trucks and talk about beer.

You know what I mean? Like me and Ben went and got tacos one time and we went to a concert together. Like it's you painting a picture of what you think the other side is going to be. It is perfectly reasonable, a thousand percent reasonable for you to go to a club where you are grinding up on your friends who happen to be attractive females or unattractive females. I don't care.

And you slow dancing with them and you choosing to make that interaction public by posting it on the World Wide Web. Perfectly acceptable, reasonable for your parents to go, dude, tell me about these girls that you're dating because that looks like a date. And then you can choose how dare you ask if I'm dating. They're my friends. Or you can go, yeah, it looks like they're just my friends. We're just being silly.

But, but like that's a hundred percent reasonable for somebody to assume that if you're going with the same people dancing, grinding up all in people that there's some sort of romantic thing going on. That's not a weird, I don't see that as weird at all. And if you want some guys to learn like, okay, what is, what does masculinity feel like? What does, what's going on in the minds of a group of guys? Then you're going to have to choose to get past this click idea and quote unquote, go be uncomfortable. If you want to talk about trucks, find some people to talk about trucks.

You know, if you want to talk about like, if I had a Jeep question, I would call my friend John Falcons or I would call my friend Cassidy McGugan, who's got this big dope Jeep, right? Like, and she's a woman and John is a man. Like it doesn't, I guess I feel like you're drawing as artificial boundaries as you're frustrated that other people are drawing. So if you want to go make friends with dudes, um, you've learned some things that don't work. Just asking for a dude's Snapchat. They're not going to write you back.

going up to a guy and saying, hey, come over to my house tomorrow. We're doing some things or I want to go play music or I got an extra ticket to a concert or whatever. That could work. That could be the thing. But I think it's you stopping like,

People are going to ask questions. Let them ask questions. Go on about your life. I'm not going to carry that burden with me. And if people ask accusational questions, like they accuse me, they're angry, they're mean to me, that's their deal, dude. I'm not going to carry your weirdness there. I think this culture of outrage, like how dare you ask a question. Ask the questions, man. It's my life. I'm not afraid to answer the questions. And if I get mad at people for asking questions, then so be it. But I think it comes down to you looking at yourself in the mirror. And if you like the life you're living, great.

If it's on a trajectory that you want to change, then you're going to have to do some uncomfortable things because you've been doing the comfortable thing. And I wish it was more complex than that, but it's not. It will be uncomfortable and it won't be it won't feel great all the time. But yeah, get some guys together and say, I want to learn how to fish. Well, some of y'all take me fishing. I took a guy hunting the other day.

A military veteran who's done way more adventures than me. Never been deer hunting. So I said, I got you. Let's go. And we took him and it was a blast. And he taught me things. I taught him things. It was great. But like it started with, hey, I need to learn how to fish. I don't know how to work on a truck. Will you teach me how to do that? And go from there, man. But again, you decide what kind of friendships you want. What do you want in life? What you're leaning towards. And man, go that direction. And if people don't want to go with you, so be it.

So be it. Thanks for the call, brother. We'll be right back. All right, let's talk Cozy Earth, the makers of the best bedding, sleepwear, and bath linens in the world. So if you're like me, your New Year's resolutions are hanging on by a thread and your body is redlining from all of the new exercise and new eating habits and all of the back to school activity, all of it. And I'm all about go, go, go, go. But we all have to remember rest is vital for our overall health.

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All right, let's go to Washington, D.C. and talk to Beth. Hey, Beth, what's up? Yes, hi, thank you. I'm calling because I'm wanting help or suggestions for what I can do to help my husband who has experienced severe trauma and he's refusing any kind of help or medication. Oh, man, tell me about it.

So he grew up in a country that at the time was under the control of a radical terrorist organization. And because of that, he has PTSD. He definitely has some OCD traits from the PTSD and he's dealing with depression. And logically, medication or therapy would help, but

because of his survivor's guilt and also because where he grew up, they had like a morality police that required that you report on anyone for anything. And kind of because of that, no one was ever comfortable telling any information about themselves to anyone. So it forced everyone to become like islands, to be completely isolated. And he...

It's just like this block. You know, logically, he knows if he goes and talks to a doctor, he's not going to be sent to jail. But yeah, but that story is in his nervous system, man. Right. Yeah, that's not that's not a that's not a I mean, because that's for the average listener. My experience is sitting down and talking with some of these survivors is they've seen madhouse violence and or been required to participate.

They'd experienced sexual abuse of unimaginable depravity. And he himself, oh, I'm so sorry. No, go ahead, go ahead. He himself had survived multiple kidnapping attempts because where he lived, they particularly wanted young boys. And he survived multiple kidnapping attempts himself. And so he does have the severe trauma. And one of the things that I have found is

to be helpful. One of the only things actually that I found to be helpful is some advice that you've given on how to help a partner who has survived severe sexual trauma. And, you know, it's hard because there's a certain reality, a certain framework that I need to work in. I know no matter what,

He will not go and get help. I can shout it all day, but it's not going to happen. And it's hard because it's not coming from a place of he's just being difficult. No, it's survival. It's coming from panic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But can you go get help? Oh, I do. I go to therapy. I go get medications. I really try to work on myself because I have my own...

traumas and issues. And I think that's one of the reasons why we work well together is because I understand, I have a slight, slight insight into some of these things. Okay. I bet your insight is less slight than you. I think you're being very compassionate for the hell that he endured and lived through. Okay. Here's what I found to be helpful.

Okay. And I don't know if he ever would, but I would love to talk to him. And if he doesn't want to talk to me on the show, I'll even be willing to set up something off, off, offline. Okay. I don't know if he's a fan of the show or anything, or if he's ever listened to this show, but if not, no big deal. So here's a couple of just big rocks. Okay. The three words, I believe you combined with physical touch is a very powerful salve. Okay. Okay.

Right. So when somebody's spinning out, when somebody's frustrated, when somebody's angst, when somebody's having a panic attack, when somebody's anxious, when somebody's like, I don't want to just simply putting your hand on their arm, holding skin on skin is what you think. SOS, skin on skin. And the words, I believe you. I don't know how or why, but it tends to make the human body go. Okay. The second one, and this is most people don't think about this.

The second one is deep and powerful and very strong boundaries with somebody who has experienced abuse. What I mean by that is you've experienced unimaginable abuse. You've seen things that no person should ever see, much less a child or experience. And you don't get to be abusive in this house.

You don't get to scream. You don't get to hit things. You don't get to punch holes in the wall. You don't get to just disappear for five days. You don't get to do that because you looked at me and said, I do. And what I found over the years is not 100%, but what I found is what somebody who struggles with childhood trauma like this, those type of boundaries are unfathomably life-giving because finally they get to anchor into something.

Right. And I think for him, it's almost the opposite. And this sounds horrible to say, but I think in some ways it would be easier if he did scream or punch the wall or do something because... He holds it all. It's like the exact opposite because where he was, if you showed any emotion, it could lead to problems. So what behavior, what's prompting this call? Well... Because here's the thing, there's kind of this...

And I'm glad it's finally getting some press and some attention right now, but not everybody grieves in the same way. And it might be that you're doing all this work and you're doing talk therapy and you're taking medication and you're feeling great and the light has come on and you see him and you think, man, his light's on and he's being a present husband and he's showing up and it's pretty amazing that given the journey he's made.

But I think the light could be even brighter. So you need to talk more and you need to go like, so is there some behavior, some pathologies that you're seeing that you are scared of or see him hurting himself? Or it's bringing electricity into your home. Like, what are you concerned about? Well,

Well, yeah. Yeah.

Right. So all of his friends, actually, it's kind of funny. All of his friends are like the older veterans who work at Walmart. You know, he goes every morning and he talks to all the older war veterans because they've seen a lot of the same things.

but kind of what really facilitated this call was, you know, he's very good friends with like all the old ladies in the neighborhood. It's adorable. And, um, he was very good friends. I'm really, I'm sorry. He's very good friends with the woman across the street. And, um, he's so very rarely makes a human connection like outside of me. I think it's really important that he has friends outside of me, you know, has a support structure. Um,

He was very good friends with our neighbor across the street and she took her, her life. Um, and his reaction absolutely broke my heart. Cause he walked in and he, you know, he was like, Beth, you know, so and so killed herself. I wish she didn't do that. I wish she had called me. And it was just totally a flat affect, completely flat. Um,

And I just, I love him so much. And my heart breaks because he has this well of sadness that I cannot touch. And I just, I want him to have this joy. And he just has, he has this mindset. And I understand why this mindset of just like nihilistic. Yeah. I mean, he's seen it. He's seen, I mean, it's, I've heard this over and over and over and over again from, um,

Like, it's just hard to hang out with a 27-year-old U.S. person sometimes when you've grown up in madness. When they're just like, oh my gosh, can you believe that Trader Joe's is not... And you're like, dude, right this second overseas, there's a little boy hiding because some guys are trying to kidnap him too. Right? I mean, like, it's hard to even...

It doesn't surprise me at all that he's made connections with folks with way more wisdom who have been overseas, who have seen what the human condition can do. And it doesn't surprise me that his body took over to take care of him. Like that affect, that is just a body that goes inside of itself, right? That's a spirit locking itself inside a skin because it has to. But that's where that, the thing that draws somebody out of that is, and you are right on, is connectivity, right?

And that's the words, I believe you and skin to skin contact. Right. And it's a process and it takes a long time. I don't know that he'll ever not, his body won't, will never not have that as a default setting. Right. It was too important. I have a hypothesis that has zero, no evidence to it, except that I ask every single long-term veteran that I meet, all of them.

I ask him the same question and I've never had somebody tell me no. I wonder if, because I know that the data on the human body's ability to metabolize trauma, it's astonishing what people will go, can go through and will go through and the lives that can lead on the back end. Especially when you look at like at, at like Nazi camp survivors and how they went and they just like,

Only few remaining people from different families created new communities together because they had to, right? Right. People can overcome, but they have to have other people. And I have to wonder if the mad spike in PTSD comes from somebody who sees things that nobody should see, experiences things, but they also do it in a context with a family. Because if you're surviving kidnapping, that means you have family members that are with you, right?

Right. They did this thing together and veterans do that. They have they train together and they've got a group of men and women that will lay down and die for them. And then they get out of the service. They get unhooked. Or as your husband leaves, comes to the States, marries an amazing woman who loves him more than life itself. And you get that survivor's guilt. You get that unplugged feeling.

It's hard to have a friend. You've got a friend that will die for you and that helps hide you when there's guys trying to kidnap you. And then your neighbor's like, man, did you see the prices at Whole Foods? Like, it's hard to ever reconnect. Right. And right now, unfortunately, his parents are in a place that is better than it was. But, you know, we're worried, you know, about them getting bombed. Of course. Of course. And...

But I do kind of think, and I don't even know if this is silly, but part of me thinks if I could force him to join a bowling league or something, something where we were forced to interact with a group of people who maybe are in a slightly older age demographic, like you're saying, to form some kind of community. Right. Because unfortunately— I want to switch it. I don't want to do any forcing. I think he's been forced enough.

But I do want to invite. Okay. And so very few husbands, there are some scumbags out there, but very few husbands, if their wife holds her hand and says, this really matters to me, I want to join this particular thing, it would make me feel loved and it would make me feel safe if you came with me every Wednesday night to go bowling. What? Right. I know you don't like to talk to people. I know. This is not for you. It's not for them. This is for me. Would you do this for me? Mm-hmm.

And that's an invitation. When this comes out, I'll already be a month in. I'm starting ballroom or whatever dance lessons this month. Right? And it's because my wife has said, I want to do things with you. I've always wanted to dance. Dude, I can't dance to save my life. I don't want to dance in front of other people. I have a public-facing job, so it's going to be even more embarrassing. I'm clumsy. Like all those things, it's not about me. It's not about them.

It's about when I told my wife, hey, I got you dance lessons for Christmas. Her smile lit up the sun, right? And so I don't want to force him. You have to do this or else because then you become one of them. Right. And he doesn't need that. He needs you to be with him. But you inviting him, I need you to be with me on this one.

And it might not be bowling, but it might be we have to do something together outside of this house with other people. I'll let you speak into it, but I want to invite you to be a part of it. And you have to be prepared for he might tell you no. And then the boundary is you're going to go anyway. Right. I'm going to go anyway. Without him if he said no? Absolutely. Okay. Because what we're going to do now is we're going to model what peace looks like. Okay. We're going to model it. Because here's what he needs to feel.

He doesn't need to come home to his house and feel like he's not grieving right. And often loving partners, myself included, tell our partners, we need to be grieving like this. You need to go see a counselor. You need to go do this. You need to go take medication. You need to go start an exercise program. And what it ends up doing is I've got pain and I'm not even doing my pain right. And so instead of, instead of it's the curiosity over the judgment, instead of saying like, you need to be doing this, this, and this, it is, would you do this with me?

And what we want him to feel is your nervous system ticked down about 50 beats and there's no beats in a nervous system. I just made that up. But it's when he feels with you that then he's like, I want that. I want more. His body will naturally want more of that. Right. That makes a lot of sense. I never thought of that because you're right. You know, a big thing for him is he doesn't want to be

micromanaged anymore because you know he lived under a regime where like they told you you couldn't wear shorts no that's right that's right he's done with that as he should be but that but going back to the boundaries thing that doesn't mean he didn't look a woman in the eye and say I do till death do us part and you get to say hey as a part of loving me here's what I need and here's what I want

So he doesn't get to be responsibility free. And that's where those boundaries are really important for people who have suffered unimaginable abuse is it's such a rudderless. The thing that trauma, especially sexual trauma and violent trauma does is it cuts the oxygen. The thing that keeps a human being alive is other people. And violence, abject violence, especially when you're a child and sexual violence,

it makes the person, another person, electric. It makes them like an electric fence. It makes them poison. And the problem is we have to have other people to survive. And so a boundary in a strange way creates safety. It creates a bridge back to a person because right now he's rudderless. I mean, he's clipped. He's a balloon that somebody cut the string and he's just floating out in space. Right, because I think what's hard is

If he just doesn't know what to do. That's right. That's right. And so, but what he did agree to is loving you. Absolutely. And so we're not going to preach at him. We're just going to invite him to walk with you and you have to be able to breathe through the days. He says, I can't go today. Cool. I'm going to go. Cause he might go two days or three days. And then the old nervous system kicks up because he hasn't slept well because work is stressful because he had a whole bunch of pizza one. Who knows? But for some reason, the, the, the switch is flipped on. It's not a good week. Cool. I'm going to judge you.

But when I get back, I'm going to tell you how much fun we had. And I hope you'll come next time. My wife did this for me for years with church. I just got to a place where I had a lot of baggage with church and I didn't go. And I never felt a sense of you're less than or you're a terrible person. I did feel guilt because she got up and went all the time. And eventually I started going, not with a good spirit or a good heart about it, but I didn't want to be the guy whose wife went to church by herself. And then I started going.

And then I went with my walls up, but I kept going. And then I went with, as the wall started coming down a little bit, and then an awesome minister asked me to help with a thing, would you teach a class? And then all of a sudden, like, you get what I'm saying? So I think the behavior is the language. It's the action. Will you love me this way? Will you come to the bowling league with me? Right? Or I want to start having people over to the house every Wednesday night, bringing people over.

And it would really, you're the best whatever cook I know when you make this, or you're a terrible cook. Please don't cook anything, right? Like whatever the thing is, right? Yeah. But let's focus less on forcing. He's been forced enough. Right. Let's do the inviting that we can do. And you are right, pointing him back with all arrows at some shape, form, or fashion to connection. And at this point, honestly, I wouldn't judge his connection. If he's connecting with older folks, that's amazing. Great. Okay. Yeah.

Right. Because definitely my goal is I just, I want to support him the best that I can. And, you know, if that means like he hangs out with a bunch of, you know, 70 year olds, because I mean, that's great. But invite him over. Because sometimes people will hang out with 70 year olds because it's safe and it's surface. But you as his partner, as a person who loves him can say, cool, hold my beer. They're coming over here.

And we're going to learn how to play bridge. I don't know. I just assume that's a game that teach you how to play when you're 70, but like we're playing bridge, we're playing dominoes and it's going to be like game on here at the house and we're in it. We're going to play. And, um, you can't keep, you can't have these arm length friends, or you can say like, I don't know about these 70 year old women hanging out with my husband. So I want to meet him. I'm putting my eyes on him. I don't trust him. Right. And you can be funny about it. And, but you're gonna have these friends amazing, but I want them to come over.

And slowly with you by his side, it pierces that inner bubble he's created in his home. Because here's the other side of this that we don't often like to talk about. You're trapped inside there too. When you know you're his only source of human connection of oxygen, it makes it hard for you to leave. Right? And so it's a both and thing. But I'm going to say this. He won the cosmic lottery meeting you.

Thank you for loving him like you do, for caring about him, for doing your own work. And I'd love to talk to him if he ever wants to call in. Love, love, love to hear a story and just sit with him. Thank you so much for the call, Beth. It means the world, your trust and your bravery. Thank you so much. And thank you for giving us a picture of what loving well looks like. Very few of us are married to somebody who's been through hell like that, but we all have partners who struggle. And you're a picture of what love looks like. Thank you for that. We'll be right back.

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All right. This is from Brandon. Yes. He says, I am a deer hunter and I have family members that ask me for deer meat. I butcher my own meat and make really good products from deer meat. Every year, family, mainly my in-laws, ask for meat. I put a lot of time and effort into hunting. They don't offer to help, but always want and ask for meat in indirect ways. I can't sell it to them because that's against the law. I enjoy eating the deer that I harvest and the products that I make.

So they are taking away from my food supply. I don't ask them for a ribeye steak every year. Am I the problem? Yes, you're the problem. He is the problem. He is. Yes. Here's why. I guarantee you a guy that has all of his own processing stuff at his house doesn't not talk about it. And so you have in-laws that are probably doing the best they can to identify with their

addition to their family as they look at him. The guy who's with, I'm assuming, their daughter. And so he hunts. I'm sure she tells him, oh, he's out hunting. I'm sure he goes to family events and gets out of his truck wearing camo something or other. Like the family gets it. And so A, at one point he probably showed up to a family event and had cooked venison for them and was very proud of it. And it was probably spectacular.

And they're like, man, I'd love some of that. And he trying to impress his in-laws gave them some. And so now he's got to be a grown-up and just say, no, thank you. And so the boundary is not, is it rude to ask? Is it rude to like, hey, I want some of that deer meat you made. Great. The boundary is on the receiving end. Like, oh man, I've given away all I can give away this year. The rest of it, I've got saved for the family. And if they don't like that, that's their issue. You get what I'm saying? I just don't, if you...

Let me say it like this. So all of my old students, not all of them, a number of my old students, which is the numbers in the thousands, right? Over the years, parents, family members, old friends, as this podcast, as this YouTube show has taken off, I've had people calling me and texting me from way back in the day, right? Of all sorts, people just still have my number in their phone.

Some of it is amazing. Some of it is like, I don't remember who you are. And some of it is I've cheered with old students who have new jobs. It's great. But it gets to be a lot sometimes when I get 30 or 40 or 50 text messages a day from people that I haven't, right. And so I asked a buddy of mine who's a country music star. I said, hey, when did you change your number? Because I remember him changing his number one time.

And he walked me through the pros and cons of changing your number. But he said something that was so profound, and I'm so glad that he gave me this wisdom. He goes, you can change your number. Here's the good thing about it, but here's the bad thing. And it comes with a lot of bad stuff when you just change your number midstream. And he goes, there's also one other thing you can do. And I was like, what is it? And he looked at me over dinner, and he goes, you can be a grown man and just not reply. And I was like, well, I don't like that because that makes me feel sad. He started laughing. He's like, just be a grown man and just say, I can't do your –

I can't come speak at your small office thing. I appreciate the invitation. You'll have a great one. And from that moment on, it's their response is their deal, not yours. And that piece of wisdom was like, dude, if you're good at something, people are going to want to be a part of it. They're going to ask you.

And you get to be the one that says, nah, I can't make that happen. Or I've given away all I could give away this year. Next year, maybe I'll see if I can get another deer. Or I didn't hunt as good like this particular year. I didn't have a great season. And so I've got less to pass around to everybody like I usually do. It's all good. But I don't know. I think he's the problem. Like just say no. You don't think so? Yes, and. Okay. I also think that – Look at you listening to this show. Yes, and. Wow. Kelly's getting all grown up.

I don't know what to do with emotionally stable Kelly. Let's not go that far. I can also see a side where they're mooching. Of course. And they're adults as well. And now he has to be the one obviously to set the boundary because they're not going to. Yeah, moochers are going to mooch. Yeah, clearly. But it's kind of like if you know somebody that –

Cody. Our friend Cody takes pictures. I would never ask him to do it for free. Correct. But I guarantee you people do. All day, every day. Yeah. And in this case, this guy can't sell it because it is illegal. Right. Because that was my first thought was, sure I can if you pay me. Right. But you can't do that because it's illegal and he's trying to follow the laws. Yes, but also you can buy... Yes, but I'll trade you some meat for a box of balls. Right. Or maybe that's what, you know, you can't just continually take and take and take and take. Sure. Because...

they're saving money by not having to buy meat for their family. But they also may throw it away and think, we're just trying to show this guy that we love him. We don't really. Who knows? Yeah. Who knows? I think both sides need to be more adults. So using Cody, he's my manager. He's a good friend of ours.

Cody also often has a camera around his neck around here. He's taking pictures of all kinds of stuff, right? Like during battle of the bands, he's in the mosh pit taking pictures. So it's not a leap to me to think, oh, this guy just always is taking pictures of everything. Hey, would you mind taking pictures of my family? Without thinking that's a business, that's an industry, that's a whole thing. And he's a world-class professional photographer in addition to wrangling me for a living, right? So-

I put it to him to say, oh, yeah, here's what I charge. Here's the business part of it. And then if I want to get like, who do you think you are? That's on me, man. I don't know. I guess – I don't know. People ask. They're just going to ask. And maybe that's just me the last couple years. I've had to make peace with people wanting me to do a lot of free stuff, and I just can't. I can't meet all of those calendar demands. And so I've had to just make peace with – I'm going to – I think it's a –

I feel good that they asked. That's cool. And I can't, I mean, and it's on me to say no. So I don't know. If you're a great deer hunter and you make great processed foods, expect people to ask you for it because venison is awesome. And then you just gotta be a grownup and say no. Yes. And don't be a moochers. Is that good, Kelly? Good job. I feel like you mooch on me sometimes. Sorry for what? I don't know, but I'll think of something. Love you guys. Bye.