Shownotes Transcript
My sister recently met and married a man serving a life sentence for first-degree murder. She kept their entire relationship a secret until she just texted me a picture of her wedding band and told me that she got married. I don't think that's the actual issue. I hope not. Can I tell you what I think the actual issue is, and you can tell me if I'm wrong? Yo, yo, yo, what's up? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. So grateful that you've joined us. The greatest show.
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Hi, Dr. John. What's going on? I have a confrontation, I guess you would call it, that I need to have with my sister. Yeah, yeah. I know. And I don't know how to go about this conversation. Just in general, I just don't do well with confrontations. Excellent. All right, bring it on. What's the confrontation? Okay, I wrote this out. I'll read this to you just a little bit. All right. My sister recently met and married a man serving a life sentence for
for first degree murder she met him while he was incarcerated um where is it like is that like a special swipe right account how do you how do you do that she had he's like locally incarcerated from a from our area and i guess they just knew somebody mutually and her friend set her up with him that's that is a ride or die friend right yeah really i know they're married
They are married now. She kept their entire relationship a secret until she just texted me a picture of her wedding band and told me that she got married. And she hadn't even mentioned at first that he was in prison.
So just the fact that she got married and I didn't even know that she was in a relationship was shocking. And then she told me that he also was in prison and it just snowballed for there because there are a lot of other just terrible details. I'm going to have a job forever because people keep making choices like this. Good gosh.
So he was sentenced to life in prison for first degree murder, which he confessed to during the second trial. The first time the jury found him guilty, that was dismissed. And then the second time, instead of going to trial again, he chose to confess and take a plea deal. And this is also the second time he has.
served a sentence prison and his first sentence was for attempted first degree murder and of course you know he says that he's innocent my sister believes that twice almost back to back he was has been wrongfully convicted and she's all new wives believe I know I know and she just cannot be persuaded otherwise and so anyway he's up for parole soon and there's no chance
That's what I thought, too. There's no chance. But she's adamant that she thinks that he has a chance then. Gail, hold on, hold on, hold on. Has she ever been right? Very true. She's never been right. Since you've known her, she hasn't been right. Right. About anything. Yeah. That's part of the problem, honestly, is that the judgment is wrong. If he's doing a life sentence for murder one on the back end of another sentence for attempted murder,
murder one, he's not going to get paroled unless he's in California. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's my thoughts too. And of course she's adamant that she says, you know, well, his lawyer has new information or whatever. He sure does. Which is what I tell her. I said, I'm sure he's telling you that, but I just don't think that that's true. Well, I've seen Matlock enough to know that
Probably not. Probably not. All right. So let's pretend, though, he gets out on parole. Right. Yes, exactly. So that's the conversation. I guess right now it's easy to just kind of pretend like it's not happening. No, no, no, no. Your sister's pretending. You can live in real world. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But at least for us, the main issue is, you know, my husband and I, we have three really young children. They're all under five, and they all love my sister so much. And we see her a lot, and we talk to her a lot. They have no idea, of course, that any of this is going on. But if he gets out of prison and they are living their life together...
I feel like we're going to have to have a conversation to say, like, we don't want him in our lives or around the children, at least, at the very least. Why? Because of a little murder? Geez. Yeah, really. I actually, I don't think that's the actual issue. Yeah. Can I tell you what I think the actual issue is? And you can tell me if I'm wrong. Yeah. I think the actual issue is they don't know her.
They love the whirling dervish that is their aunt that sweeps into their life and buys them a bunch of cool stuff and acts all bananas. And they think it's hilarious and fun. And you and husband have to keep the rules. And then she wisps away. And the, the excitement for a kid, what would you say? Five, four and three or something like that.
They're like five, three and seven months. Good God, your house, by the way. So, yeah, you have like a live, like multiple live chainsaws going in your living room at any given moment. So they love the and then it's like a roller coaster. It's fun. Yeah. You can't live there. I think the bigger issue here is very soon they'll begin to know her.
Yes, exactly. I totally agree. You're going to have this half this confrontation. The guy's not getting out of jail. He's just not. But you're going to have to have this conversation when it turns into, hey, I want the kids to come stay with me for a month. Or why don't you go out of town and I'll come stay with them? And you're like, yeah, no, I think that's the confrontation that's coming.
That's true. That's very true. And my husband kind of thinks more that way, too, because it's like if she's making these type of judgment calls in this area of her life, what other type of judgment calls? We already kind of we've never let the kids stay alone with her just before this has happened. She just hasn't made the best judgment calls, you know. Right.
Um, so yeah, that actually does come up a lot where she even like on Valentine's day, she said, why don't you guys go out and I'll watch the kids. And I was like, we're just going to take the kids with us. We want tonight to be extra hot. So we're taking all three of them. Yeah. Because I just, um, yeah, I have been just avoiding having a difficult conversation. So I always just come up with excuses like that. Like, we're just going to take the kids with us, you know?
And so can I say this? My guess is, and this is the compassionate side of me, your sister's had a rough go of it, hasn't she? She has. Yeah, we had a rough childhood. And then she has had a rough, she was a teen mom and she's always been a single mom. And, you know, she's had, yeah, her struggles. So she's had her struggles. I can guarantee you she can feel it a mile away when someone's not being honest with her.
Yeah, that's true. And my, also my guest, tell me if I'm wrong, I could be way out to lunch here. Um, she does not handle direct, honest interactions very well, does she?
Yeah. No, she doesn't because she thinks that specifically we are Christians and my sister is not. And she specifically says that I'm judgmental and I think I'm holier than thou. And it just always, anytime I say anything to question her decisions, which, you know, she makes a lot of, she has previously made a lot of bad decisions. It just turned into a fight about that, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
yelling at somebody and calling them judgmental when a, they're putting up a boundary or they're calling out unsafe actions. Right. When somebody says, so forget the right or wrong, right? Forget that. She probably makes choices. I'm just going to guess, like go out on a limb here, like, like marrying a murderer, right?
She makes choices that are inherently unsafe, right? Yeah. And when you say something, it's easy to defend herself by just calling you the bad guy.
Yeah. So I don't blame her for that. I get it. I understand it. It's hard. It's hard to hear someone who loves you saying, Hey, if you drink like that, or you snort that, or you sleep with that, like you're going to have problems, right? It's easy just to throw grenades. So I think for you, the hard part is I love my sister and I have a duty to my kids. Yeah. I love my sister and I have a responsibility towards my marriage. Yeah. And those may not intermingle much.
Yes. Yes. I know. Yeah, that's very much true. And I don't know if it, maybe it's just feels like it's coming to a head because this situation is just very like acute, I guess, but it's kind of just, it's just an overall problem, you know, with our relationship with her. At some point you're gonna have to sit down and have the hard conversation and it's going to be best, um,
I like the way my friend Jefferson Fisher frames it. Like you have to have a goal for the conversation. And if your goal is, I need to say all the things I need to say that you're going to leave in completely disconnected. Okay. If you, so I want you to spend some time actually deciding what is the goal of this confrontation I need to have. If it is to say, I'm never going to leave my kids with you. I just struggle to trust you. You just married a murderer.
Yeah. I struggle to trust you and I struggle to trust you with the safety of our kids. I do love you around them, but we're going to be there. Right, right. And dude, the whirling dervish of middle fingers and like the way she'll talk about you and how dare you and who you think you are. I mean, you can stand in the middle of that storm because you're anchored into reality.
Yeah, yeah. But you got to ask yourself, what's the point of the conversation? Is it to give her a lifeline? Like, hey, when this thing burns to the ground, we'll still be here. I mean, you got to ask yourself what that goal is. If you go into the confrontation without a goal, no one's going to be happy because you're going to start searching for a feeling. Yeah. And you'll never get that. You'll never get that feeling.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just, I think right now where her feelings are so strong about the situation with, you know, her husband, I feel like everything always circles back to that. And so I would think like if I had a conversation and try to keep it broad and general, that it would circle back to that. And then I feel like it would almost be like she would give me an ultimatum. Like, you know, she gets to do that. She gets to do that.
Yeah. I'm just afraid that she will just be like, I don't know, no contact. Like she will just say, well, if you don't want him, then you don't get me or. So what's your alternative to put your kids in an unsafe situation? That's true. There's no solution. No. I mean, there is a solution, but you want to have it all and you can't. Yeah, that's true. You want to have a sister who's clearly been struggling for a long time, who just made a wildlife decision, not hate you.
or not cut you off because you probably feel like you're the only light in her life and your kids are the only light in their life and you see your kids dying laughing when she's around because she's probably pretty remarkable with your kids.
Yeah, yeah. They really love her so much. Yeah, she's chaos and fun, and she's exactly what an aunt should be, right? Yeah, yeah. My sister goes by the name Tia Loca. I don't even know if my kids know. They do know her name, but they've never called her that. Yeah, yeah. But she also is, like, super responsible, and she's a funny, hilarious, like—
everything's on fire when she comes in the house, which is exactly what you want with an aunt, right? That's what you want. Yeah. Yeah. And also she's not married to a murderer.
Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's very true. You know what I mean? So like, and like you said, right now they just see her as the fun aunt, but especially my five-year-old in a couple of years, I mean, she's gonna, yeah, really just, I don't know. She's going to learn more about her than just like, you know, the fun side. Well, she'll learn like when I'm going to come, I'm coming for your birthday, I'm coming for your birthday and she doesn't show up or I'm going to be there. I'm going to be there. I'm going to be there and she doesn't show up. That's when they'll begin to learn.
Yeah. Yeah. And so you're going to have to sit in the heartbreak that all parents have to sit in with their kids when they learn that not everybody tells the truth, that everybody has, has, um, some people have struggles and it's heartbreaking. Yeah.
Right, right. I don't, my sister, she has always shown up. I think it's a matter of like, if we like would allow her to show up depending on what state she's in. So I think I worry too that it's going to come back, but like the kids are going to maybe be resentful of us if we, if it becomes a no contact situation, even though it wasn't like we made it that way. Yeah. I would just tell you who cares.
Yeah, that's true. My kids get resentful, especially my younger one, when I turn the TV off. Yeah. My younger one gets resentful when I don't let them eat ice cream for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Yeah, yeah. That's just kind of what they do because they're kids. They don't get a vote. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And then when they get older, they're going to be really grateful that mom and dad stood in the gap when they were children and kept them safe to the best of their abilities. And I mean, just imagine the alternative, the other conversation. Yeah, exactly.
Hey, mom, why did you keep letting aunt so-and-so come over when you knew she was going to sneak alcohol in here and she's going to leave us with murder boyfriend or murder husband? Yeah. I mean, I think you've got to let go and it's going to be hard. Let go your responsibility for keeping your sister in check or in line. And you're going to have to recognize I can't keep her in check and in line.
No matter how much I love her, how much I try to coach her, no matter how much I try to quote unquote model the right, like a peaceful way of doing life, she's going to go marry a murderer. She's going to go do her thing. And let's say the 0.0001% chance this guy gets out on parole, good, great, grand. He's not coming around my kids. And by the way, I've met people who got out on parole. They're almost always super clear eyed.
Like, yeah, of course, I understand that you want some space between me and your kids. That's not a problem. I'm not going to come over for Thanksgiving. I get it. I totally get it. Totally get it. And I want to honor the temperature of your household. I'm not going to show up there. So, yeah, I would love her the best I can. And when you think confrontation is coming, then be super clear and have a goal for the meeting. But I think...
before any of that goes on, you need to exhale and just be sad for a little bit because I wish everyone could have an aunt like my sister. Everyone, I wish. And you don't have that. I'm sorry. That breaks my heart for you. Thanks for the call, my friend. We'll be right back. All right, let's talk about cozy earth. In my house, I would prefer to go to sleep somewhere just south of the Arctic Circle. I like it cold. My wife, on the other hand,
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the reviews with all the stars, all the stars makes such a huge difference for us. Thank you so much. Let's go out to Mitch in Chicago. What's up? What's up, Mitch? Yeah, I, I called in. I've, um, been having a little bit of trouble with my, with my wife and I was looking to try and get a little bit of, um, advice. Yeah, man, what's going on? Um, so my wife works as a nurse at a large hospital and, um,
I work from home in a tech company, and some of her interests have kind of changed. She came home and kind of let me know that she had interest towards a coworker and kind of caused a little bit of a tuff between us. And then I found out she was hanging out with some of her male doctors at their house.
And she said that she was actually hanging out with some of her other coworkers who were different in a more social scene. So I've just been trying to kind of work through that and get on the same page and see what's going on. I was kind of wondering what your thoughts and opinions were.
I mean, I guess my first thing is my first gut reaction. And again, this one's a little more challenging because you're not sitting in front of me. I can't see you. But it feels like one of two things. One, you don't fully want to metabolize the seriousness of this.
or you've just come up with some safer, more generic, unflavored oatmeal language to describe the fact that your wife is having an affair. She's cheating on you. Which one of those is true? Is one of it just nervous you're on the show and you don't want to fully dive in, or is it hit differently when you're like, no, my wife's having an affair, she's cheating on me, and I think my life as I knew it is now over and different now?
Um, I think I'm just trying to come to the sense of reality of it. There you go. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah, totally. I mean, your whole world got blown up. How long have y'all been married? We've been together for 12 years now. Okay. And we got married a little bit before COVID. Okay. So just y'all been married for five years? Yes, sir. Ish. Okay. My gut tells me this didn't just start. How long has she had one foot out of the boat of this marriage?
Um, I kind of just started to find out about this, um, towards the middle of end of last year. Okay. Was it a shock to you or did you go, I knew it. I was a little frustrated to say the least. Yeah, but that's not, that's not what I asked. Were you stunned by this? Did it catch you completely off guard or did it confirm some fears you've had for a while?
Um, yeah, definitely. I didn't know where this came from. Okay. Did she ever cheat on you when you were dating? You'll date for seven years, huh? Yes. And no, she did not cheat on me during that time that I know of. Okay. Um, yeah, I guess, I mean, I guess the, the bigger questions are, what are you, what are you going to do now? What do you want to do? It's a good question. Um, we're trying to go to therapy at the moment to try and get an understanding. She,
indicated that she didn't cheat on me. She needed a father figure or another person who's more of a superiority individual to talk about stuff with because what she does as a nurse is very traumatic. She works in an OR room. Then they do a lot of... They are saving life and death, I guess. And I don't know. She...
just kind of indicated that she never really cheated on me. She went to somebody else. It was more like an emotional type thing. I don't know if that helped to provide any context, but yeah, I don't, I don't buy it. Yeah. At all. You go to lunch with an emotional affair. You send inappropriate texts with an emotional affair. You over disclose that person becomes your safe place and you begin dreaming about life and,
with them as opposed to the person you're with, you don't go to their house over and over and over again. Yeah. Um, I dude, I've been in those rooms and I, I, I'm not in those rooms. I've never been in those rooms day in and day out, minute after minute, hour after hour. She's exactly right. It's a traumatic job. It's hard. Um, and you go talk to with those about those challenges with a counselor. You go talk about those challenges with a group. You tell you you're her husband. Um,
hey, I'm struggling carrying the weight of this thing. I need to go talk to somebody. You don't sneak around for a year going over to... You know what I mean? And forget going over to doctor and surgeons' houses. She told you she's got feelings for somebody else. I mean, am I wrong? No. Okay. So what are y'all going to therapy for? Because you can go with two different mindsets here. If you're going to...
Understand what happened. If you're going to just poke around in the drawers, this will happen again, this will happen again, this will happen again. If you're going to save your marriage, then you'll have a different track to take. Do you know what I'm saying? Okay. Because she's still going to work in the same place with these same people, right? The individual no longer works there.
is what she told me after some time. Yeah, but I don't trust her as far as I can see her. Does she show you her text every day and have her location turned on? She actually turned her location off and said it was overarching and overpowering. Yet she wants a father figure? Yeah. I'm sorry, man. Yeah, it sucks. You love this woman, huh? Yes, sir. You love kids? No. Okay. My associate producer of the show,
Let me know that she never even changed her name on her driver's license. Is that right? Eventually she did after some time. How long? But it took a while. How many years? Three. Okay. So just from the outside looking in, man, it sounds like somebody who, for whatever reason, it took y'all the better part of a decade to even get married. And even after that, she didn't want to give up her independence or her way of navigating the world.
And maybe she didn't mind riding co-pilot or her driving and you riding co-pilot, but she wasn't going to become one with the person she married. And let's give her the benefit of the doubt. Let's say she's exactly right. She never slept with anybody. High five. But she doesn't trust you enough to say I'm struggling. She doesn't honor you enough when she says, hey, I've got feelings for somebody else. And you say, okay, let's rebuild trust. And she's like, no, no, no, no. I can't rebuild trust like that.
Like you need it. Like, let me see your texts and let me know where you are. Cause you're telling me you're going over these guys' houses late at night. And she says, whoa, whoa, slow down. That's too much. I mean, if behavior is a language, she's telling you, I want you there. I want you at home working the IT job so I can know that direct deposit is going to keep happening, but I want to go live my life. I want to deal with my stuff the way I want to deal with it.
I want to involve other men in our circle of emotional and physical trust. And you just have a grown-up decision to make, my brother. Yeah. And I hate that. I know. I hate that for you. We do split everything, which is, you know, nice. And I have separate bank accounts and things. No, that's terrible. That's terrible. That means y'all are roommates, dude. And I say terrible, like, not as a judgment call, but as, like, you can't make your marriage work that way.
I mean, you have split emotions, you have split physical lives, you have split financial lives. It sounds like the only thing that's different is y'all went and got a government stamp on a piece of paper, but your lives are still as though you're dating. Yeah, I can see that. Does that make sense? Yeah. I guess the only, the path you got moving forward, brother, is to truly, honestly, and as painfully as this would be, write down the questions you actually have.
Not the hem-haw, not the like put your head down and she just kind of tells these tales about I'm struggling and then this and then I had to go over their house over and over and over again. And you say, will you go over there anymore? How dare you ask that? It's too much. It's just too overbearing. You need to write down the questions you actually want to know the answers to.
And then you're going to have to ask yourself, A, do I trust this person? B, do I want to stay married to this person? And C, what must be true for me to remain married? And no one can really make that decision for you. Right. I can just tell you if I was to switch places with you, it would be real, real thin ice. Yeah, I understand that. Do you feel like you got the full story? I feel like there might be a few...
areas of the painting that still needs to be drawn out yeah but it's mostly there okay well i can't make i can't i mean i can't tell you what to do next brother all i can do is say from the outside looking in you're right to feel completely bewildered because the actions of both of you aren't the actions of a married couple it's going to be ride or die till till the wheels fall off
It's going to be standing there at the castle gates, like just saying, bring it on world. It's, it's, it's us two versus y'all. Your marriage is built on, we have two different lives that we just happen to share a house and a marriage certificate. That's what we all run it. Do you can run it that way? The data tells me it's not, it's not going to work. And I think a lot of people race off to marriage counseling after there's some sort of infidelity and they just want to talk about it and talk about it and talk about it.
And maybe you don't even know if you want to save this marriage. You want to find out some more information. You want to get to the bottom of some stuff, but it's going to always land on what do you need to feel like I can reestablish and she can re earn my trust and what things are we going to do differently so that we create a life where one plus one equals one. And that's the choice you're gonna have to make, man. And again, if it's me, I'm,
All the notifications are turned on. Probably she's getting another job. She's working at a different hospital. She's committing to letting you know, I'm struggling in these areas and so I'm gonna go talk to this professional or this person and I'm not going over to other people
Rock star surgeons and doctors houses late at night and lying to you about it I'm not gonna continue working with people that I've got that I'm gonna have you know relationship with an intimate or romantic relationship with that I feelings for if you will We're gonna share finances all those things like men you're gonna have to do a bunch of different stuff that y'all haven't done in what 10 12 years of being together and You have to build a completely new marriage
And you just, it's going to start with you asking yourself, do I still want to do that? And then asking her, do you want in on that? And that's two big question marks in my mind. And then from there, man, I believe y'all can build whatever you want to build. I just have a belief in people and redemption. I have a belief in people. They can, they've chosen a miserable life. They can choose an amazing one, but it all comes down to that choice. And both of you have to have both feet in the boat. Both of you have to be all the way in.
Thanks for the call, my brother. Call anytime. And I'd love for her to reach out too, man. I'd love to hear her side of the story. But you have some hard questions to ask moving forward. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. All right, so I was born and raised in Texas. And I love, love the myth of the lone cowboy. You know, the guy who doesn't need anyone or anything. He's got a mustache and he solves all his problems by himself. It's a great fun story. And it's a lie.
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All right, we are back. Don't forget to hit the subscribe button. All right, let's go out to Indianapolis, Indiana, and talk to J-I-L-L. What's up, Jill? Hi, thanks for taking my call. Of course, thanks for calling in. What's going on in your world? Well, I think I know the answer to this, but the question that I have is, how can I get my husband to prioritize his mental health when I'm at my breaking point?
I'm sorry. How long have you been this close to the edge? I think that I have been at my breaking point for like five years and I feel like recently I broke. What broke it? Well, I think what really did it was my husband and I have...
He's kind of always been in this like low-grade depression for a really long time and it caused a lot of damage to... Or a lot of hardship for our marriage. So we went to like a marriage retreat thing and it went really, really well. And he was great for about six weeks. And then it just went back to how it was. And...
I think that is really what broke me. Yeah. Finally. You believed one more time, huh? Yeah. Do you have little ones? Yes. How old? 11, nine and six. Oh man. So they're not little, little, but. But they're in prime absorption. Like they're able to absorb and see, right? Yeah. So I guess my question for you is what do you want to be different? Um, yeah.
I want him to be happy. Like I, he's not my first love, but he was my best friend and I miss my friend a lot. And I've tried, like I've had other friends, um, and they're not him. Like he's the one that I want and he's, he's not there. Um, I married him because I knew that he would never, ever leave me.
And it never really occurred to me that he would leave mentally and stay here physically, which might actually be worse. Did it ever occur to you that he could feel the fact that you never fully loved him? I fully loved him. Okay. But you married him out of loyalty, not out of, I want to build a life with you. No, I definitely wanted to build a life with him. He was a person who I...
knew that I could build a life with. Definitely that, like, he was not the first love. The first love was a teenage thing. It was definitely very...
Teenage-y. That's cool. It has had a lot of impact on our relationship in large part. Specifically because when we were a couple years into our marriage, this first guy who basically ghosted me called me out of the blue. And I was like, what? And so I talked to him and it caused...
huge upset in our relationship. I was 21. I think when this happened, I got married very young. Um, when you say you talk to him, I'm, I've learned that that means different things to different generations of people. Um, I, I talked to him on the phone that night for a couple hours and just was like, what happened? Oh, so you didn't like talk to him, like go hook back up with him.
No. Okay. And why did this phone call disrupt your husband's equilibrium so bad? So, so it wasn't the phone call itself. It was me. It was, we were not doing great in our marriage already at the time. We've always kind of struggled. Um, in large part, I think because my husband hasn't ever actually fully trusted me. Um, but I didn't,
know that until after we got married. Um, but so basically I, all of those, like what happened with this, this first boyfriend, we'll call him, he, um, he kind of just disappeared out of my life, like in the middle of the, like infatuation in love period of the relationship. But you were 18, 18 though, right? Yes. Okay. How old are you now?
34. Yeah. Let's stop talking about high school boyfriend. Like both, both, both him and him and yeah. And husband, like if your husband's still bringing this up, then yeah, he's, he's got some, some pretty significant challenges. What is significant is that I was trying to talk to my husband about like, basically I was confused. Like this is bringing up a lot of old feelings. We're not in a good place.
Um, and I was trying to talk to him and I think what I was trying to do really was communicate, like, I'm confused. I'm kind of scared. Like, I don't, I don't know what's going on. Um, but what I said to him and what he heard was, he said, are you in love with him still? And I said, yes. And he said, do you love me?
And he said, are you in love with me? And I said, I don't know. And that is the thing that was so extremely damaging. It's not about the boyfriend. Okay. But that was when you were 21 years old, 15 years ago. Yep. Yep. That's true. The things I said 15 years ago, the things I said seven years ago, God help me. You know what I mean? Like,
Yep. The thing is, is y'all chose to stay together. You chose to work on it. You chose to make humans. Y'all have made three humans, right? Yep. So I guess at the end of the day, if that's still a thing floating around that when you were 21, you admitted to your brand new husband that you still had feelings for a high school boyfriend and you were confused because a lot of people get married and they think it's supposed to like magically make all old flames go away. It doesn't. Right. Um,
And they think I'm going to get married and it's going to magically be magic and it's just super not. Right? Like, so all I have to say is I don't know anybody who gets married at 21 that doesn't say dumb stuff. I don't know anyone who gets married at 31 who doesn't say things that 10 years later, they're like, whew, I wish I could have that one. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so here's the deal. We're here right now. Let me ask you, what do you want for you? When I asked you that question, the first thing you said is I want my husband to be happy. What do you want?
I want to be happy. Oh, there you go. What does that mean? Paint me a picture of that. I want to know that I am valued in my home and in my life. But you don't value, Jill. You're still heartbroken about a dumb thing you said when you were 21 years old. I mean... You think that the reason he doesn't talk to you is something is wrong with you. That's the thing that I'm told.
I know, but you believe it. I don't. I know that his stuff is not my fault. He has reacted to a lot of things, and I feel like in an effort to be fair to him, it is important for me to be transparent with what I actually did do to cause him damage.
But I did not cause his stuff. His dad left him when he was six. And I think that all of his stuff stems from that. But he doesn't really acknowledge that that's still a problem that he's never worked through. I'm going to go one step further. Yes, that happened. Yes, you broke his heart when you said you still had feelings for another guy 15 years ago.
He continues to struggle because he hasn't chosen to change his life. And now y'all have gotten in that weird figure eight infinity loop dance that is you show up feeling less than in your own house and
And you tiptoe around your own house and you tiptoe around your own kids. And then he knows people are tiptoeing around him. And then he chooses to not do anything to bridge that gap or his body shuts him down, whatever. And it just gets in this. And then you are reaching for ghosts and this guy that was never going to leave you, but he's left you. Like you said, perfectly. He left you, but he never left. And somebody has to stop that dance.
And sometimes it is, here is the deal. Here's the life I am looking for. You have left me in our own home. Or a better way to say that, a more connecting way to say that is, I feel like you have left this marriage. You just haven't left our home. You haven't left our bed. Do you want to stay married to me? Because if you want to stay married to me, here's what must be true. And I would like to be married to you. What must be true for you to want to stay married to me? And y'all got to put that on the table.
I think right now my hang up is that we're about to our 15th anniversary. And for 14 years, I have always been the one bringing up the things that need to be talked about and pushing for the connection and pushing to resolve things. So Jill, what's your alternative?
Because now you're keeping score. When you start score keeping, that's somebody hovering over the ash of resentment. That's contempt. That's one of the Gottman's four horsemen of the end of a marriage. I've been doing so much. You've been doing nothing but being a net drain on this relationship. And suddenly you find yourself going up a ladder and you're looking down upon him. I've been doing this. I've been doing this 15 years. I'm out.
I mean, that is essentially where I am. I'm not, I'm just, I'm trying to be peaceful. Like that's basically what I'm trying to do now, but I'm not bringing up the things that need to be talked about because I'm exhausted. I get that. So are you going to leave? No. Okay. So you're going to stay? Yes. You're never going to leave? No. Okay. If you're going to make that choice that I'm going to stay, then that frames what your next move is.
If there is a or else line you're drawing, this has to change or else I'm going to go live my life because this isn't a marriage of fidelity. He's choosing to opt out of the marriage and maybe he didn't sleep with somebody or he's not opting out with work, but he's opting out by choosing to not engage. If there's not an or else line you're going to draw, then you have to do one of two things. Make peace with the way it is and begin to live your life. If you don't want to go dancing with me, fine. I'm going to go take dance lessons because I want to dance.
I have done a lot of that. It's just lonely. It's so lonely. But I guess what I'm trying to get you to see is the prison you're in is locked on the inside. And there's not a move you make without consequence. If you bring it up yet again, you're going to be mad at yourself because you swore yourself last time, I'm not bringing this up anymore. He has to start doing it. And like the old Dr. Phil line, do you want to be right or do you want to be married? Do you want to bring it up one last time?
or letting him know, I'm not bringing this up anymore. I'm tired of being lonely. And so I'm going to go find some friends and we're going to go do life. I'd love for you to join me.
My bigger concern right now is your three kids are absorbing this is what marriage is. This is what marriage is. This is what people look like. This is what love looks like. This is what husbands who go to the ends of the earth for their wives look like. This is what, and instead they're getting like, this is what it feels like when mom gives up. This is what it feels like when dad quits. And peace, keeping the peace in a household feels like electricity for a child. They feel it.
And I hope you hear me not dumping all of this back on you. I just want you to hold. You're the only one. Your husband clearly doesn't want to make another move. He kind of likes the way his life is. He gets to do whatever he wants, thinks how he wants. He doesn't have any responsibilities. And life just keeps going on. And also, I bet he's miserable on his own skin. Is that fair? Yes. Okay. I mean, you said it when you called. You knew my answer. There's nothing you can do. There's not a thing you haven't said. Okay.
other than maybe I love you till the end of time and I'm never going to leave you. And the day you want to start having joy in your life, I'll be right here. But what I want you to do, if that's your decision, I want you to make peace with it because right now you're at war in your own body. Yeah. Um, I think, I think the, the biggest thing that is at war at the moment is, um, this is the first year ever in my life when, um,
leaving came up as an actual thing that I wanted. How'd it go? What do you mean? I mean, when you brought it up, did you put it on the table and tell him that you're considering leaving? No. Okay. Can I tell you, he knows, he can feel it. Okay. So the thing is, I wasn't considering leaving. It's I want to, I do want to.
but I won't. And if he doesn't know that about me after 17 years, I don't, I'm at like, I'm at the, I feel like I've fallen off the rope. I'm not even at the end of the rope anymore. I've fallen off the rope as to how to, how to get him to believe me that my loyalty has nothing to do with how I feel.
And that's a comfort to me. That would be a comfort to me. Yeah, but you're not just, you're not underwater in depression when your feelings weigh so heavy that they are immobilizing. I, um, I guess maybe not as bad as him. Are you scared to hurt this guy? I feel like the only reason why I'm not
immobilized, why I can't, why I don't come home and be catatonic some days like he does is because I don't have the, I don't have that luxury. That's right. That's right. And I hear this from mothers all over the country when people are like, how'd you, how'd you do it? And you're like, I have to, like, there's, there's no way to explain it. I've got three kids who have to eat. And to quote Henry cloud, what you, what your husband needs is some problems. He needs to know his laundry's just not going to magically appear because
That his kids don't just magically come home and have every one of their needs taken care of while he sits there and just veges out. It may be that your husband needs some problems that aren't just in his head, but that are in reality. So he'll stand up on his own two feet and begin to get his feet underneath him. It's a decade and a half. Something's got to change. And if nothing changes, nothing's going to change. But I can't stress this enough. You got to go find a therapist in your local area and sit down and talk to somebody. Because I think your trend line is not great either.
But the prison you're in is locked from the inside and I want you to turn the key. And I know it's scary out there, but I want you to turn the key and take a step out. Let's confront that reality. Go get them. We'll be right back.
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Man, I love that question. One of the things that every marriage researcher talks about, Esther Perel, the Guttmans, everybody talks about is we have such a ROI-ed, work-centric world.
that every action we take has to have a benefit to it. We exercise so we can. We do this so we can. I even talk about it. I work out now so that when I'm 90, I can roll around with my grandkids. Everything is so ROI-oriented. And dude, we have sucked the joy out of being alive. Fun.
Just fun. We've lost fun. So what are some ways to like in couples all over the country, they reach out, dude, they've recognized this. Our house functions so well. Our finances are getting back on track. We, we put sex on the calendar. We have a 2.1 times a week. We, all the things,
Dude, we don't have any fun in our house. We just don't have any fun. So the only word I can give you is practice. And I know it sounds dumb to practice fun, but you got to practice fun. What does that mean? Sometimes let the kids stay up too late.
sometimes fill up a bucket of water balloons and just drill your kids when they get, get off the bus. Just, just unload on them. You and your spouse. Sometimes, um, the dinner's halfway being done and you're like, I don't want to eat this tonight. Just order pizza. Sometimes turn all the music up on Spotify as loud as it will go and just have a dance off.
Sometimes play spin the bottle with your husband or wife. That might even be fun. Play truth or dare. The John Deloney erotic envelope system. Just come up with five things you want to try, five things they want to try, and then you just agree to pull one up, and you won't judge what's on that card. You're just going to be curious about it, even if you don't even understand the physics and geometry of whatever they put on that card. I don't know how this is physically possible to try, but I want to hear about it.
Like choose curiosity, choose fun and inject some things in there. In my house, here's some things we've done. My wife, her dream, her dream is to be in bed by nine o'clock every night. Like just dream. And she hears the next morning when I'm talking about how hilarious a comedian was.
So last year she put on the calendar. I'm gonna go to this mini live comedy shows John you curate it for me And she knows I know the kind of humor she likes and I especially know the kind of humor she doesn't like so I curated them specifically But when somebody was coming to town, I was like you got to go to this one and do we laughed our heads off She put on the calendar. I will go to some concerts That means I'm gonna be out till midnight or 1:00 a.m. And dude, we went and hung out with Avett brothers We went hung out with Frank Turner. We went hung out with some of our heroes and it was awesome and
And on the other side, I committed, on certain nights, I'm going to go to bed at 9.30. I'm just going to go to bed early. And then lo and behold, I sleep all night. I wake up feeling like a million bucks. The mornings are full of laughter instead of me being all grumpy and mainlining coffee. It's just a... We have a wrestling mat in our living room, so me and my daughter can just literally go Karate Kid 3 as often as we can. My son and I are always making jokes, making jokes. So it's just a choice to...
I'm going to release my grip a little bit on routine, release my grip a little bit on everything's got to be tucked in, release my grip on my hair's got to be just perfect. And instead, I'm going to focus on laughter, fun, play, joy, and whatever that means to your house, knock your lights out. It might even mean when your kid's playing Minecraft that you go in the other room and log in on a separate account and you just attack, right? I don't know what that means in your house, but let it... Can you attack somebody on a Roblox? I don't even...
I don't know. I'm not, I'm into things on it. Yeah. The two nerds in the booth were like, absolutely. I don't know. I mean, that'd be funny if your dad suddenly had a secret fortnight account and like attacked you. Oh, that'd be fantastic. Yeah. And then it's like, by the way, like stop wearing my underwear. I don't know. Like something funny you'd say to your kid. I don't know. I guess if your kids were in your underwear, you got other issues, but, um, yeah, I don't know. It's, it literally is a mind shift.
that yes, routine is great and going to bed about the same time every night is good. And also good God order a pizza and stay up too late dancing. Um, here's one last thing I'll leave you with. Ask yourself, is this a funeral speech moment? And here's what I mean by that. Um,
I was in Walgreens a year or so ago. My wife started this tradition that on the last day of school, we hide and we attack the kids with water balloons. And it's become a funny thing. Like one year, my son was on the roof of like our small, like it's become like World War III and it's super, super fun. And they get me. Sometimes we've snuck up and got my wife. The whole thing's just chaos.
I was in Walgreens and I was getting some medicine or something and I saw a thing of like a hundred water balloons. I just grabbed it because I thought that's gonna be funny one day and something was going on and we needed to get to bed or whatever and I'd filled up. Long story short, I remember saying, if I throw all these balloons right now, I think it was in the house, it might have been in the house. If I throw these right now, they will tell this story at my funeral.
Like, remember that one time? Not that dad got us to bed on time again, but do you remember that time goofball dad started throwing water balloons or snowballs or whatever it was in the house? And so sometimes I ask myself, will they tell this story at my funeral? Because if so, I'm going to let it rip. Now, that's not always a good thing, but it's one of those just, this isn't a good idea on a Tuesday night. Yeah.
Yeah, but they'll tell the story one day. So again, I love that question. Let's return our lives and our homes and our marriages and our relationship with our kids. Yes, they got to get their math homework turned in. But can we all start looking for a little more fun, playfulness, joy, laughter? Go get them. And don't play Fortnite. God help you. Love y'all. Bye.