Nutrition Expert Debunks Health Misinformation (With Dr. Layne Norton)
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Somebody was like, you know, whey protein causes inflammation. And I'm like, oh, it does? Yeah. Okay, well, here's all these studies that show the exact opposite. It actually lowers inflammation. There's one of two options here. Either you don't know this data exists, in which case you should not be talking. Or two, you know it exists. It doesn't fit your bias. And so you don't care. What's going on? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show.

Talking about your mental and emotional health and your relationships and your kids and your in-laws and everything you got going on in your life. For the past two decades plus, I've been sitting with hurting people as the wheels have fallen off their life, trying to figure out what's the next right move. I'd love to have you on the show. It's real people going through real life stuff.

Go to johndeloney.com slash ask ASK, fill out the form, and we'll see if we can get you on the show. Today we have a very special guest, fresh off his world championship weightlifting victory. World champion. This isn't the first time or the second time. I think it's the third or fourth. I don't know. He wins everything all the time. The strongest man in the world, and he happens to be one of the world's most renowned athletes.

He happens to be one of the world's most renowned experts on nutrition, protein, getting beefcake-y, and taking down people who lie on the internet about nutrition. I'm talking about Dr. Lane Norton, who's also a good friend and big-time advocate for what we do here.

Over the past three or four years, Lane has helped me personally with some challenges I've had. We've navigated life together and I'm so happy that we finally got the opportunity to sit down in person to talk through everything from

What's it like being wrong, exercise and nutrition? Like what's the chaos out there in the world versus what is actually real when it comes to nutrition, when it comes to exercise? We talk about how can some people be so good in certain parts of their lives and then just be train wrecks in others. We talk about so much. We run the gamut here. This is one of my favorite conversations I've ever had from a true person.

Not an Instagrammy or a TikToki, but a true expert. Somebody who coaches people, who performs themselves, knows all the academic insights, and who can distill it all down for knuckleheads like me to understand. So sit back and enjoy this conversation with my friend, Lane Norton. You are one of the most graceful people I know behind closed doors, and you have a thing in your guts.

About charlatans. Where does that come from? Like you, more so than most people I know, you have, I think of it this way. Me and a buddy are walking down the street and somebody mouths off. And they mouth off about me. I often wouldn't hear it. I have a thing in my gut. If I hear somebody mouth off about a kid, I snap. I get irrational.

To the point that I've had people grab my arm and say, keep walking. All right. You and I can both be scrolling social media on the same thing. And one guy pops off and I'm like, what an idiot. And you have this thing in your guts where you're like, stop. I'll go burn that guy's house down. Where does that come from? I think for me, when I first got into this industry, it was like early 2000s.

And it was basically by posting on bodybuilding message boards. I started to get a name on there, started to write for different websites, different magazines, and then started my coaching business. And I was kind of one of the first people to do online coaching at scale. And you can learn so much through a PhD, but man, I learned the most by working with people. That's it. You know, yeah.

And I just saw some of the information that was being given to people and the downstream effects of that, of the misinformation, of people just kind of winging it, you know? And I think for me, going through the graduate school experience and having a really great PhD advisor, Don Lehman, I still got to give him a ton of shout out because he's

You know, he got a Lifetime Achievement Award this past year, and we were sitting down at dinner, me and him and a bunch of his old graduate students. The fact that y'all did that, by the way, is so rad. Oh, I loved it. That all his students came back, that's pretty special. That group of people will probably never be in the same room again together. It was awesome. And he said, you know, I was just okay with being wrong.

I was just okay with being wrong. And when I got to grad school, I think I just had so many of my ideas crushed repeatedly that I'm like, oh, it's okay to be wrong. Yeah. It's okay. And so I don't, I'm not upset at people for being wrong. I think what I'm upset about is people, because everyone was ignorant at some point. Sure. Right. That's right. But,

When you have been shown something repeatedly that not only says that what you're saying isn't accurate, actually the opposite thing, this is true in a lot of cases, like some of these people that I debunk, and you're still doing it, you know, it's either, you know, there's kind of two roads you can go down. Either they're making money from it and so they don't, they're not, they can't, they can't really change course.

But I actually think the more powerful portion of this is people tie their identity into some of this stuff. They tie their identity into a diet or a supplement program or a style of training for sure. And I can even identify with that, right? Yeah.

Is it a sense of justice for you? Yeah. Yeah, and I think, again, going through the graduate school experience where I got to see myself be wrong so much, and I'll never forget the first talk I ever gave at Experimental Biology, which is like the Super Bowl for nerds, right? It's like 300 people in a room. I'm in my third year of grad school, and I was giving a talk, and I thought I knew this stuff. And a professor gets up,

And he totally dresses me down in front of a room of scientists. And it was embarrassing. It hurt. And I went and sat down and Lehman was sitting next to me. And he said, you know, you did pretty good. He goes, you're not supposed to go that hard on a graduate student as a professor. And I want to talk to that guy. But...

I don't hold it against that guy. In fact, it was really good for me because I remember what that felt like. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to know my stuff next time. That's it. I'm going to go and get the answers so that I understand the nuance of this stuff. So I'm not up there looking like an idiot. Right. And so I think like that took me five minutes to self reflect and go, okay,

okay, maybe that guy went a little bit too hard on me, but I allowed it to happen. Yeah, yeah. I set the table. Yeah, by not doing my due diligence. If I knew what I was talking about, like really in depth, it would have never happened. And so it would have been real easy for you to become the victim in that moment. Right. And instead it was, no, that was harsh, but that was the learning opportunity and I'm going to make the changes I can do. All I can control is me here. Yeah. And so I think when I see some of these people, you know, so confidently saying,

saying things that are just totally not true. Right. You know, so, you know, kind of the catch line on my, on my video series is if only we had human randomized control trials that actually, oh, wait, we have dozens. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. And, you know, it's like there was a recent one where somebody was like, you know, whey protein causes inflammation. And I'm like, oh, it does. Yeah. Okay. Well, here's all these studies that show the exact opposite. That actually lowers inflammation. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

So, either there's one of two options here. Either you don't know this data exists, in which case you should not be talking, or two, you know it exists, it doesn't fit your bias, and so you don't care. But you as a coach have seen the impact on human beings. I've seen the impact. And honestly, a lot of the downstream stuff I've seen is,

I'll give you an example of where stuff is counterintuitive and what can happen when this messaging, because human beings aren't robots, right? We got all this like weird wiring in our heads. I dealt with so many people who had disordered eating patterns from things they'd been told, right? You've helped me with that. Yeah. And like, that's why people will say, when somebody says sugar's toxic, I'll go, okay,

And I'll explain why not really. And now... In the volume with which I consume it, toxic, but... Well, you know, and people go, well, why are you defending sugar? I'm not defending sugar, but I think it's important to understand, like, yeah, I don't think a diet high in sugar is a good idea, but it's not because sugar has, like, some inherent chemical property to it that's causing...

carbohydrates break down into sugar. Like that's what enters your bloodstream when you eat carbohydrates of any form. Okay. So if sugar is toxic, then carbohydrates are toxic. Gotcha. So I think it's important to understand this stuff because what I saw was people who believe this stuff, a lot of times would be the opposite outcome, which is they would completely try to abstain from this stuff. And guess what happens?

they'd end up binge eating on this stuff and there'd be so much shame wrapped up in it. And there'd be so much. And the only way to make the shame go away is to eat more. Right. Or like me, bro, I've skipped Easter. Yeah. I've skipped, um, I've not eaten cake at my, one of my kids' birthdays once. Right. And so I end up like in the name of this thing I was taught or told, um, from a very confident source, um,

Dude, I missed out on important markers, right? Well, I think that's the other thing that people don't realize is like food isn't just fuel. Like there's, it's community, it's cultural. You know, people want to talk about, we should ban ultra processed foods. And I go, listen, that the bullet is out of the gun. We're not putting it back in. Yeah. All right. We need to learn how to live with this. Okay. And so I try to help people understand. Yeah. I don't think it's a good idea to eat a lot of sugar.

But it's not because it's toxic. Because here's what happens when people believe that kind of stuff. There's no area for nuance or dosage, right? Yep. And also people do weird things like, well, I'm not going to eat fruit because sugar is toxic. Because the sugar in fruit isn't any different than the other sugar. Right. Except it's not bound to a fiber. So if it's toxic, you know. I even heard a few years ago there was that protein eventually breaks down into, is it

something, something Genesis that breaks down to sugar. And eventually, I mean, protein. So gluconeogenesis. That's it. So, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can convert, you can keep playing that game all the way out. Right. Sure. Yeah. You know, and yeah, I can, I can, I can construct a narrative to make you afraid of anything. Yeah. Fat, carbohydrate, protein. I can just, I can construct those narratives. Yeah.

And, again, what I saw so often was people trying to abstain from these things and ended up actually eating more of it because of it. And then when I kind of, like, I'll never forget, I had a client one time, and I said, hey, listen, here's what I want you to do, okay? I want you to, can you eat these calories, all right, and have a small bowl of ice cream every night? And if you don't lose weight because sugar is stopping you from losing weight, then we'll cut it out. But just have it.

And after two weeks, they're like, oh my God, I've lost three pounds and I was still able to have some ice cream. I'm like, yeah, yeah, you're fine. Like it's a dosage thing. Okay. Now, just like, you know, with Ramsey talk about budgeting, right? If you can still take care of your responsibilities, your mortgage, your utilities, food, et cetera, et cetera, and you have a lot of money left over and you're taking care of all your responsibilities, a sports car might not be a great investment, but if you're

You like it and it gives you some joy. Right. If it fits in your budget, there's nothing in Ramsey's stuff that says, hey, don't go buy a sports car. No, Dave says, yeah, if you can light it on fire in your living room and it won't change your life. Then do it.

And so that's kind of how I look at like, you know, treats and processed food and all that kind of stuff. Like, okay, if you're like sedentary and you don't expend much energy every day, yeah, your budget's going to be pretty small. And does it make sense for you to like a lot, some of that towards, you know, piece of cheesecake or ice cream or whatever? No, probably not. But if you have a larger budget and also if you allot some of this,

And you are able to moderate it. Everybody's different. But if you are able to moderate it and it helps keep you consistent, like for me, if I know I can have the foods I like, but I just got to kind of fit them into my budget, I'm fine. I remember having tacos with you once. I was like, I don't know how.

I think he had one drink and two tacos. And I have chips and queso and taco. Like, I'm going to get another taco. Like, yeah, I just get off out of control. But, again, it goes back to know thyself, right? Yeah, know thyself. And, again, I've had...

I actually stayed with a couple one time where the girlfriend was doing her master's in psychology. Ah, yeah. And she was like, here's what I noticed about Lane. When he's in control of his food, he by default picks very low calorie options.

But he also didn't turn down any dessert I made. He didn't turn down. So I am in my head doing this budget and doing this exchange. Like if I want to go out and have a few drinks, well, then I'm not going to eat as heavy of a dinner. Right. Right. Or I'm going to hold over. I'm going to not eat as much earlier in the day so that I can have more later. Right.

It's budgeting. So I saw how much damage this stuff caused people that I worked with, this messaging. And I think that's what got me kind of vitriolic about it. And I have actually tried to pull that back a little bit. I've tried to save the vitriol for the repeat offenders, where it's very obvious that they don't care about getting it right.

But I have seen people who I've called out who have changed their views on some things. You did that to me. You read my first book and you called me and you're like, hey, great book. You were wrong here. But I needed that. I was right. And as a guy who worked in science, it's not an indictment as much as it's a...

dude, you put a piece of iron out here to be sharpened and I happen to can sharpen that side of that thing, right? And it's a gift. It's a blessing. And it's funny, like some of the, like everybody struggles with different things, right? Like I've, you can give me a feedback on a scientific thing and I'm probably not going to take it super personal, right? Right, right. But I took things personal and feedback in relationships, you know, like that kind of stuff, right? And like, you know,

Try, there's so many like parallels across different things in life, you know, but like I said, one of the things I've tried to do is like, okay, if somebody sends me a video of somebody like something that will trigger me, right. Is when I see people saying things that are very, very untrue, especially if they're like,

trying to use the veil of science. Like it's one thing for a bro who's jacked to just be like, this is what made me jacked. Right. Okay, fine. Right. Like you're wrong, but I'm like, I'm not. Um, it's another thing for me, like scientists at Harvard showed X, Y, Z. I'm like, Oh yeah, let me go read that study. You know, like, yeah, let me go, let me go pull up the study. I can remember very clearly one time, uh, uh, this one guy I've called out a bunch, um,

He would never say me by name, which is very smart on his part. But he was kind of trying to respond to some things I'd said about artificial sweeteners. And he said, in this study, they gave subjects artificial sweeteners. By the way, when they say subjects, it was in rats. Yeah. They gave...

They gave subjects aspartame and they gained more weight and X, Y, Z. And I'm like, and then he said the PubMed ID. And I'm like, I'm going to read this study. Yeah. Mistake. Don't give the PubMed ID to me. And it turns out, yeah, it was in rats. And also 12 X their body weight or something.

No, they actually lost weight. The group of King's Amphibious Sweeteners lost weight. I'm like, not only was you get this wrong, it's the opposite of what you said. And even like there was a very well-known scientist who was on a really big podcast with a podcaster who I have a good relationship with.

And I was watching the interview and he said, you know, they did this study where they had everybody drink either a liter of soda a day, a liter of diet soda a day, a liter of full fat milk or a liter of water.

And in six months, the people drinking a liter of cola gained 10 kilograms. The group drinking the diet cola gained two kilograms. And I can't remember the water or the full fat milk. He said, I think they said, you know, they lost weight or whatever.

And he said it was a study out of Copenhagen. So I'm like, all right, where can I find this thing? So I spent probably five hours trying to track down this study and finally found it because he mentioned it in a blog and I was able to find the original study. And I'm like, so he either didn't read this study at all or...

He fabricated the results. So, yes, it was a leader of those things. It was actually semi-skim milk. It wasn't full-fat milk. There was actually no differences between the groups in the amount of weight gain. Like the cola group gained the most weight, but it wasn't statistically significantly different from the other groups. And actually, based on raw data, the group getting diet cola didn't gain the least amount of weight. It actually lost a little bit of weight. And I'm like...

millions of people heard this podcast and I was the first one to be like, so out of the millions, nobody went and fact-checked this. It's the new year. It's my favorite time of year. Everyone starts thinking of new routines, building better habits, stopping things that aren't that helpful, and overall building a better life. And we all know that most new go-get-em goals are a waste of time because we don't put in the systems to make them sustainable.

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You gave me a line one time that has stuck with me and it sticks with me when it comes to marriage, it sticks with me when it comes to dealing with budgets here at Ramsey. It sticks with me all the time, and that is people are always stepping over dollars to pick up pennies. And when I look at the landscape right now, we're a couple days after an election, right? All of a sudden, the literature has been flooded. I say the literature, the popular media has been flooded with

and red number 30 and the seed oil thing's been going on for years and years and years. And I don't know enough to speak intelligently. What I know is fine. It may all be poison and bad. And 40 to 50% of the country struggles with obesity. And, and,

Was it 8 out of 10, 7 out of 10 people have one or fewer people that they can reach out to and say, I'm not okay. And so when I think of the caustic mechanistic issues going on, it feels like we are playing on the margins. It's yet another distraction. Am I crazy? No, you're not crazy. I think you just have to do the damn thing. And I think a lot of people, they want to make it about, well...

This ingredient in food and this thing and this thing and this thing. And what they're avoiding is the inherent responsibility, the self-responsibility. Because if I can make it sugar is toxic or if I can make it the food companies put addictive substances in this food or if I can make it the government made us, it's taking away my own accountability. I don't have to be accountable for it.

And I think the problem is if you don't have any responsibility with it, then you don't have, like, you're actually not in control of being able to fix it. It was like his own hand. Yeah. And so when I look at the mortality data, cardiovascular disease risk, cancer risk, there are a few major things that stand out. And you can almost explain the majority of the problems based on these things. Yeah.

The first is the most powerful one is smoking, to be quite honest with you. Smoking is just a very linear increase in risk. But side note, if you want to know how easy it is to manipulate people with scientific research, I was reading a meta-analysis of adenocarcinoma incidents with smoking, right? Uh-huh.

And when you're looking at a meta-analysis, usually they'll include a force plot, which is going to show, you know, right of the line is this, left of the line is this. And, you know, so in this meta-analysis, right of the line is increased risk. Left of the line, decreased risk with smoking. There's like 50 studies in this meta. 48 of them are very far to the right, right? Like, and the overall effect was like, I think like a 4%.

I want to say over a 400% risk increase, relative risk increase in the risk of adenocarcinoma. So for people who don't do science...

Four times. That's astounding. Like when you hear things in the media like, okay, this increased your risk of cancer like 20%, they're referring to relative risk. Right. So let me just explain that real quick. So relative risk, let's say your absolute risk of something occurring over a period of time is 5%. A relative risk increase of 20% doesn't mean it goes to 25%. It means it goes from 5% to 6%. Because 20% of 5% is 1%, so you add it to 5%, you get 6%.

Doesn't sound nearly as scary that way. Right. Or if you're... I don't remember the number. If your mom has or one of your parents has schizophrenia, you have 100% risk. Okay, so it goes from 1% to 2%. Right, right, right. Exactly. And those numbers aren't real, but yes. For sure. People freak out and it's... Yeah. So 400% is massive. Massive. It is massive. Yes. But two of those studies...

We're to the left of the line. Now, I could pick out those two studies and be like, oh, look, smoking decreases risk. And then I could couple it with—and this is actually very consistent literature—

Smoking decreases the risk of Parkinson's. It's very consistent in literature. Now, it's probably from the nicotine is my guess. But again, so I could start to construct this pseudo argument that smoking is actually not only not bad for you. It's neuroprotective. It's good for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So smoking is a big one. I don't want to say an easy one. It is. But it's like you cut that out.

You're cutting down a huge risk of cardiovascular disease, cancer. People think about cancer, but smoking is one of the – it might be the biggest cause of cardiovascular disease. And it's – people ask, what about smoking weed versus smoking –

It is the smoke itself. Right. So data is really difficult to tease apart, but it really is the ingestion of the smoke because cigar smokers who don't inhale, when they control for that and they control for cigar smokers or pipe smokers who don't inhale, who have never smoked cigarettes, they don't really see increased risk of like lung cancer. Right.

So it really does appear... Lip and mouth cancer? Tongue cancer? That's a little bit more dicey. I haven't looked as extensively into that. Dipping is much more powerful on mouth cancer because you have so much time that's in contact, you know? You and I are trying to walk through as quickly as we can. Don't ingest chemicals and smoke into your body. Yeah. I feel like the fact that we have to do that...

Tells me that we've lost it somewhere. Obesity is the same way. If you're 25, 50, 100% larger than, and your body has to carry and deal with that. Yeah. I don't know how that's a, I don't know how we've jumped the shark in the, it's not good, man. It's not good for you. Yeah.

There's a thousand reasons. It's not good. It's not good. And this is with smoking, obesity, drug use, whatever. I get what you're talking about this. Like people make decisions based on emotion, not based on data because there's no, like at this point,

People know smoking is not good for you. Just like you know heroin is not good for you, right? Just like you know obesity is not good for you. I don't want to say that there's nobody like this, but I would venture to say that no healthy, well-adjusted person is like, I think I'll try some heroin. Or I think I'm going to have a cigarette. No, it's a coping mechanism, right?

And that's the secret that you talk to people who are in recovery. Yeah. That nobody tells you. Heroin works. Right. Alcohol works. Until it doesn't. Until it kills you. That's right. That's right. It works. It does. It performs a role. In the short term, yeah. And so when it comes to obesity, yes. Like, that's the next thing that I'm going to bring up. If you have excess body fat...

and people want to make it about sugar's toxic or processed foods, whatever. If you look at the hazard ratios, the odd ratios, it's explained by obesity. It really is very powerful.

I heard Doc talking the other day, he said, I attribute most of the drop in testosterone to weight gain. It's plastics, it's this, it's dyes. Microplastics, this and that. If you look at how much obesity drops testosterone, it's easily explained by that. The decline in testosterone over the years. I'm not saying none of these other things may make any difference whatsoever, but obesity is the major driver of it.

And, you know, I tell people, like, let's focus on the big rocks. Let's pick up the dollars and then we'll pick up pennies, right? Right. Well, it's kind of like I say, you know, if I want to pick up as much in rocks as I can, I'm going to start with the boulders. Right. And then if I can get some pebbles, great. But I'm not going to drop the boulders to pick up the pebbles. Okay. What matters when we're talking about obesity, and I know it's a sensitive topic, obesity.

Does five pounds matter? Does 15 pounds matter? If you look at the mortality data, the mortality data actually says, and again, this is correlational, so we have to be careful with how we interpret it. Right.

But the mortality data says you're actually better off being around like 18, 20% body fat as a male than you are being like super lean. There you go. That's right. So it's not about being super lean or anything like that. It's about not getting obese. Okay. And when you... Which is defined clinically as... Clinically, I believe for males over 25% body fat and for females over 30%, I believe. Okay.

And there's BMIs that you can use as well. It just depends on what measure you're using. And so your risk of cardiovascular disease, cancer, mortality, they all go up. Without getting too into the weeds, there are people who are obese who are metabolically still healthy, meaning they don't have abnormal blood lipids. They don't have abnormal blood glucose. That tends to be more of a rarity, but it does happen. Mm-hmm.

Usually these people actually have more fat cells, and I could go into the biochemistry as to why, but it won't help anybody. But even when you standardize for that—

who are obese, even if they are healthy obesity, they still have increased risk of mortality, cancer, and cardiovascular disease because adipose tissue, excess adipose tissue, is a metabolic organ and it secretes its own hormones. It secretes inflammatory markers. It has, when it gets large enough in mass, it starts to dysregulate signaling in other tissues, liver, muscle, heart,

And so one of the most powerful things you can do, and again, not saying you have to be a six-pack shredded. That's not it. In fact, if you look at even people who are obese, you get the majority of the health benefits in the first 5% to 10% of weight loss. In fact, they were doing a study at Illinois when I got there. Lehman's Lab was doing a study that I kind of, I wasn't involved in, but I just helped out because I was an idiot first-year grad student. All right.

They were seeing resolution of obese women's blood markers within like four weeks of just like starting to get the calorie deficit. It's really impressive how quickly things will clean up when you start. Like the human body is very resilient. So I don't think we have, I don't think we spend enough time there because guys like me are always saying it's hard. It's going to be a journey. It's going to be whatever. With the right trauma therapist with me, it was amazing.

five or six gnarly sessions. Of the six, two or three were bad. They were tough. And then I saw a huge shift, right? Or when you and I, like when you started helping me early on, if I can just make some changes for 60 days, everything begins to shift. And it feels like it's forever. Yeah. And it's... Handle today. The body's amazing. Yeah, and...

So when it comes to obesity, what matters? People aren't going to like this, but it's how many calories you eat versus how many calories you expend. That's what makes a difference. And people want to argue it. And I'm like, hey, if you sit down and you tell me, like, we know you need to earn more money than you spend if you want to save money. Nobody's going to argue that, right? Right.

And people, well, you could go, well, but I don't know, you know, expenses fluctuate and you don't know exactly. Okay, cool. But you have an idea, right? And you can do averages. Well, you know, interest rates and you could get a different return based on, okay. But you kind of know. But math. But math. But it still boils down to math, right? Yes. And so...

You know, I actually just did a debunk of a video of a guy saying, you know, calories in, calories out is too, it's too simplistic. If you think calories in, calories out is simple, you don't understand energy balance. Because calories out, people think about these as very static things. And the reality is, is each influences each other. So,

So, calories out isn't just like what you burn and exercise. That's one component of it. But you have your basal metabolic rate, which is basically the cost of keeping the lights on, just the energy to run your body and systems. And that's about 60% to 70% of your daily energy expenditure, your calories out. Then you have the thermic effect of food, which is how much energy it takes to extract the energy out of food. And that can vary. Protein tends to have a higher TEF than carbohydrate or fat.

Um, but it overall is not a massive contributor to energy expenditure. Sure. Then you've got your exercise, which is intuitive. You exercise, you move, you burn calories. And neat. My fidgeting. Yes. So that's actually, that's actually a big one. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

And what does it stand for? Non-exercise activity thermogenesis. So basically pacing, fidgeting, posture. So non-intentional movements. It's overlooked by kids. They move so freaking much. They do. And like always just, and that adds up over time. Oh, it's actually one of the, so when we look at people who are what we call obese resistant phenotype, there's two major things that stand out.

The first is they tend to self-regulate their appetite well. They tend to be very in tune with their satiety signals, and they don't have a massive reward from food, right? That wiring hasn't been created. No, I feel better. They don't have that. And if they overeat, they tend to increase their activity without even realizing it. And so people who are obese-prone...

They tend to not compensate by increasing their activity spontaneously. Gotcha. And they also get a bigger reward for food. So where does the cultural, is it purely aesthetic? Because what you're saying right now, what I'm saying right now, there are people listening to the show that trust me. There are people listening to the show that trust you. I don't know why you do that. But there's people, this particular thing set something off.

There's so much shame. There's a lot to unpack. I think people have a hard time with the calories in, calories out. Because for that to be true, even though, yes, ultra-processed foods make it more difficult to be in touch with your society signals. Yes, trauma impacts these things. Yes, you can become dependent on food to help you cope.

All these things can be true, but the same is true of money as well. Of course. And when you boil it down, there is an inherent self-responsibility to this equation. And people...

don't like that. And it's easier to pass it off, you know, and I've been guilty of this, not with nutrition, but in other areas of my life where I'm like, but I had this thing. And I mean, you've even said it to me, like, you just got to do the, you just got to do the damn thing, man. You don't need more information. You got to do the damn thing. Yeah. The other day you were like, Hey, you got a book. I was like, you don't need another book, man. You need to go do the same thing. That was a long style, right? I mean, that's all of us. That's all of us. And it is because it's like, you know, I'm thinking about,

you know, a couple hundred years ago, you knew people in your community and that was it. That's it. You knew maybe a hundred people. There are three potential mates. And you, and you, your, your news cycle was what happened around the corner and what you read, the major stuff you read about, right? Now, you know, all every horrible thing that happened everywhere in the world, right? Like human beings aren't, at least in my estimation, aren't equipped to be able to handle that. And now you're dumping on top of that. Well, you need to,

watch out for this and you got to control this and you got to do this. And they're coming for you. We got to have good relationships and we got to have the, you know, um, it's so much. Yeah. Uh, you're not talking about my buddy, Carlos went and spent a couple of weeks with an Amish family and he talked about, um, I think it was the 1920s. The average meal was approximately 90 minutes.

And the average meal in 2021 was 12. And he ate his bacon and eggs, whatever, and he was kind of getting itchy at the table because the average meal with the Almas family was about two hours. And at one point he said, hey, I'm done eating. And he goes, and the guy said, you're done eating, but the meal's not over. And at one point he said, this is our Facebook. This is it. Like we're learning about the community, what's going on in your world. And it just went, right? That's how we're wired. And yet-

And there's a lot of stuff to deal with. And, you know, so the next big thing for getting healthy is exercise. And I'm going to tie this back in. But exercise is one of the only things you can do that doesn't cause weight loss that will drastically lower your risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer. Like even, so there was a study that got published. Four minutes of intense exercise in a day lowers the risk of cancer by 20%. Four minutes. You've got four minutes. I don't care how busy you are. Right? Right.

Now, and I've heard the same as go for a walk. Walk has a reduction effect. Yeah. Walking steps. If you look at a chart of mortality and number of steps per day, it's like a precipitous drop off from 2000 steps a day, which is sedentary to 8000. And then it starts to kind of like level off after that. Right. Yeah.

But the other thing that exercise does that people don't realize, and I actually think is the most powerful effect for obesity with exercise, it's not the amount of calories you burn from exercise. You really got to do like very intense exercise to burn a lot. Right. Right. And for a long time. But exercise sensitizes your brain to satiety signals. You actually become better at regulating your food intake when you exercise. Right.

Can I tell you, I become a better husband. I become a better dad. And I don't know if it's just a tidy, but it clarifies my mind. Whoa, yeah. The whole world slows down a little bit for me. My friends who know me are like, man, if you didn't train for...

If you didn't train a couple hours every day, you'd be intolerable. Yeah, yeah. No, but I mean we're finding now cognitive benefits to exercise. Like there was just a study looked at adolescents who exercise, better test scores. There was a study done in men with major depressive disorder and anxiety disorder. And they had them two times a week for 25 minutes resistance train, 50 minutes. Lift weights, yeah. For I think it was eight weeks, okay? Yeah.

It wasn't a like advanced routine is very basic, right? Just go in and lift weights for 25 minutes, two times a week.

They saw a reduction in symptoms of anxiety and depression. So we use what's called an effect size, you're familiar with, in research to kind of show you, like, it's not so that you'll report significant effects, right? Significance is, you can have a significant effect that's small if you have enough data points, okay? But effect size tells you not significance, it tells you how powerful was it, how clinically relevant is it.

For perspective, a small effect size is considered 0.2, medium is 0.5, and large is anything over 0.8. SSRIs are anywhere in literature, they hover around like a 0.5. The effects of eight weeks of two times a week of resistance training for 25 minutes was an effect size of 1.7 on reducing the symptoms of depression. That is a massive effect size.

And now, again, I'm not saying this is both and. Right, right. I am not saying exercise is a replacement for medications for people who need them because some people may need...

a medication to get them out of bed just to get them to go exercise. Because again, information is not enough to change behavior. I have seen people who are depressed who literally could not get out of bed. Right. That's right. That's right. So, but it matters. It matters. So we know exercise improves cognition. It improves memory. It is neuroprotective. We are seeing so much data now to show that exercise is important.

It's so interesting. What happens in the body affects the mind and what happens in the mind affects the body. And like, for example, as somebody who dealt with kind of chronic lower back pain, the biggest game changer for me with reducing my back pain was psychological stress. Stress reduction. Yeah. And this is very clear in the literature. And when I started digging into it, also autoimmune disorders,

extremely high correlation with stress. Relationship challenges, yeah, yeah, yeah. IBS, very high correlation with psychiatric disorders. Mm-hmm.

And so, again, this isn't my area, so I don't want to speak out of turn, but it seems like if you're spun up, if you're ruminating, it's not just here. It's here. It comes everywhere, yeah. But if you do stuff here, it also changes the wiring up here. Well, and my first thought is if I can get somebody who's struggling with depression to commit to something over eight weeks and just show up. Mm-hmm.

that is, it's the tiny wins, right? It's the tiny wins. And, and, and, and then you add the physical movement and the accomplishment. And you and I talked this morning. You keep your promises to yourself. That's right. You tell yourself the truth and you, you can't read a book on confidence. You have to go do things and your body begins to walk on firm regret. So it's, it's cumulative. Yep. And so the, the, I think what, what you're saying is important. And I've reached a point where I,

I want to make sure, A, I say this gently, but also I've reached a point that I carry around a lot of guilt to oversimplify it. And I'm carrying too much burden here, I know that. But for 20 years of taking young people and their families in educational environments and essentially patting them on the head and saying, oh, you struggle with X.

You're not ever going to be able to dot, dot, dot. You go over here in the corner and let me fight this for you. I'll fight these professors. I'll take care of this because you have this thing. You struggle with this thing. This part's hard for you. You go over there because, and here's any number of, um, of minority academic arguments that say that's all you're ever going to be. And it has been the last five or six or seven years that I have felt this overwhelming sense of there are true, true, deep, um,

I spent my career with victims, people who have been kicked to the margins, who have been just, their lives are staggering how rough they've been. And I have not landed in one of those conversations, from telling somebody that their child is dead to talking to assault victims, to whatever it is, that we have not landed everyone on the exact same question. What are you going to do next? And so it's sitting here and exhaling and saying,

I have a top 10 podcast on relationships and my daughter won't talk to me. I got to go see a therapist because that's probably me, right? It is you saying, I just freaking won the international championship again, which congratulations, brother. And hey, Deloney, can you talk about something else? Like something else going on in your life, right? Like, yeah, I got you.

It is somebody listening to this podcast who is for however many years has Googled, has gone down the rabbit holes of what must be this. And it's this in the water and it's this in the food dyes and it's whatever. And I'm still 30 pounds overweight and exhaling and going. So you want to know a phrase that I think you're really going to like? Yeah.

So do you know who Ethan Suplee is? Oh, yeah. So Ethan, Hollywood actor. One of my favorite actors. Lost over 300 pounds. And I was on his podcast. He said something very profound to me. He goes, we spend so much time trying to worry about who started the fire. And what we should be doing is just getting the hell out of the house. Yeah. If the house is on fire, just get out. Get out of the house. And then you can worry about who started it afterwards. Right. And what that is, is like, he did the same things. He's like, I went down all the rabbit holes. I just needed to start doing stuff.

messy action is way better than ruminating in action. That's right. And we talked about this and I, I've been guilty of this, of, I just, I just need to understand why more, or I need to explain why I did something more. It doesn't matter. I mean, it does matter. It does matter. And when you're safe, you can, you can have that conversation. You can figure it out. Right. You can, you can talk to the building code people and y'all can redo the codes. Yeah. Get out of the house. I love that. Yeah. That's good.

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and they can't figure out the professional balance. Like they want to go back to work. Like, what do you tell the person who on paper has it all right? You're, you're shredded. I mean, our providers are pretty much exactly the same, but other than that, right. You've got all the things. Yeah. I mean, there's a part of my life that's a, that's a train wreck right now. And it's so hard to not spiral out. Most of the people, myself included, who do really good things at scale are,

do that because we have to to cover up for the stuff that we struggle with right what do you tell that person who's listening and says i do this other thing in my life so good and i can't get this right so i must be worthless well you know on a micro scale i think there are things that we naturally are better at and things we're naturally worse at

And in business, one of the things I've kind of done is like, all right, I kind of know what I'm good at. I know where my wheelhouse is. I'm not really good with organization. I'm good at this other stuff. I can talk. I can break down studies. All right, I'm going to focus on this. But I'm going to try and be good enough at this other stuff so that things don't completely fall apart, right? Like I'm going to get to a basal level. And you've only got some, I mean, I'm not an expert on this stuff, but you've only got so many spoons, right? And I think the other thing that I've,

that is true that I kind of embrace is there are seasons of life, right? And I think for a long time, I thought I was Superman. I want to do everything all at once, right? And like one of the things I realized, like I used to do when I compete in powerlifting, I love fishing. I go fishing every week on my boat. I loved competition pistol shooting. I would do that. I was a dad running multiple businesses, trying to be an influencer, trying to scale these businesses, like all...

And at a certain point, I'm like, I was just going crazy. Yeah. Right? It's running. It's running. And I justify, I justify, well, I need balance in my life. And I think over the course of your lifetime, you want to be balanced, right? Like, you want to spend enough time being a family man with your friends, doing fun stuff with your spouse, significant other, exercising, all these sorts of things, right? But there's seasons of life. And like right now, for example, I'm,

Like having two kids, one of whom is special needs, and then having multiple businesses, you know, traveling a lot for work. Okay, now isn't the time that I go pistol shooting every week. That's right. Now isn't the time that I go fishing every week. I think people say they want balance. I think what really people want, they want peace. Yeah. Yeah.

And I know like I tend to have like this, like if I can't do something that I want to do, I get like real angry. You know, I feel like very confined. And... You know who else feels that way? My son when he was four. Right? It's a child like... Yeah. You can't tell me... Oh my gosh. Right? It's...

And in some ways, I've been very immature in some aspects of my life. And so, like, I think that is, like, I... How do you forgive yourself? I'm probably the wrong person to ask about that. How are you navigating your life in a series of, in a season of self-forgiveness? Um...

How do moms forgive themselves when they say that one thing? Or dads, when they scream at their kid, and they're like, God. Yeah, I've struggled with that. Or the dad that hides that one purchase that turns into hiding the second purchase that hides too. Oh, God. How do you forgive yourself? We were talking about this earlier. I think people like to make things black and white because it's easier for our brains. And the reality is people are messy. And I think just...

you try to get like focused on the majority of stuff. Yeah. Right? Like, do I usually do the right thing? Do I, do I, cause like for me, I,

I don't know if what it is, but I, I have a hard time forgiving myself for mistakes. Um, I'll either try to like really rationalize them out so that I can make it not a mistake. Right. Yeah. Or I will just beat myself up over it. Yeah. You know, you beat yourself up more than most people I know. Yeah. I mean, I've been told that quite a bit. And again, it's like this, um, I think one of the things that's been hard for me to find is how do I hold myself accountable? Mm-hmm.

While not going to, you're a piece of, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's something that I personally have struggled with. And I know like you, when you talk about food, like that's where you go, right? Like you get through those gummy candies and it's like, ah, man. You see the wrappers and it's just reflective, yeah. So I'll tell you something. I had a client who really struggled with binge eating. And he was a hedge fund manager. And when we started working together, he was kind of binge eating like every day. Mm-hmm.

And so we really started to unpack like what the triggers were for this. We started to unpack, you know, what the antecedents were for this, what the feelings were, et cetera. And over about a, just under a year period, he lost 25 pounds and he went from binging pretty much every day to like once every couple of weeks. But still when he would do it every couple of weeks, he would really like beat himself up. And I said, Hey man,

Like if I told you, if I took you in a time machine from where you were at then and took you to here, I think you'd be ecstatic, you know? And you're focusing on that, like one thing you got really wrong, but you're getting a lot of stuff, right. You know? And, you know, I was talking like my grandfather is somebody I revere, um,

And like this dude's like legit World War II war hero, just your typical greatest generation. Great family man. Like I just, I got some of the best wisdom I've ever gotten out of my grandfather. And, you know, I also have a habit of putting people on a pedestal. And I was beating myself up or something. And they were like, what do you think your grandfather would say? And I was like, I think he'd probably say that he didn't agree or was disappointed, but that he knows I'm a good person. And...

The person I was talking to said, I promise you, if you went through your grandfather's closet of skeletons, you could find something that would make you feel a certain type of way. And that's not to say that that makes doing wrong things okay. But... I think you're getting at something so important. I was hoping you'd get there. Can I tell you what I think it is? Yeah. I think... I mean, this is your area, not mine. Well, I'm fascinated because you do...

You beat yourself up more than most people I know like most people that I've spent time with like on a particular thing Like get pretty caustic, right? Are you where it is? You hold it and I think that means you care more than a lot of people do right the only way I figured out so far is how how to forgive myself and

Is to outsource it and what I mean by that is I don't think we are And I'm sure there's no I'm sure he was can sit in here and and unpack it for us I don't know that we're built to do that. I think there's reason why 12-step programs in religious communities and Even the trust people build in forums I think there's something profound about sitting in front of somebody and saying this is all of me This is what I've done

And exhaling and seeing either the friend or the community member or the therapist or the minister or the spouse say, and I still love you. And I think there's a, in those moments when I can't love myself, when I can't forgive myself, I think that is where, I think that's the moment when your soul's on fire that having other people.

That's it. I think that's one of the most profound things from listening to your show that I've gotten. That makes sense. Yeah, I think you and I are similar in this too. It's like, no, no, you wouldn't want to see all me. If you saw all me, you wouldn't. You run. And it's when my wife says, no, no, I know what I signed up for. Yeah. Right? Or it's the old C.S. Lewis quote that's like, the definition of friend is, oh, you too? And everyone just exhales, right? Yeah. Well, I think you're getting it like,

I think the underlying thing here that we've kind of touched on that translates across a lot of stuff is I think we're in this kind of struggle. And actually, I tell young coaches when I'm taking them through my course or the coaches that work for me, you know, what makes really effective coaching are you have to have...

with accountability. You can't have either one in isolation. And I think there's a little bit of a culture war right now. There is. Either or. Where if it's just the empathy piece, which is you have these things happen to you. It's not your fault. The way you acted this way, it's not your fault. You're less than. Go over here in the corner. We'll figure it out. But also, which kind of like, it sounds like what you were kind of saying to some of these kids, whatever. That feels good in the moment for the person because you've removed some of that personal responsibility. Yeah.

You feel like, okay, well, I only did these things because of X, Y, Z, right? And then there's the accountability piece, which is like, you can understand why somebody did something. You can understand why somebody got something wrong, but you can also say you can do it different. This gets into like, do you actually have free will? Do people actually have free will, right? And I've always found that kind of funny because I'm like, let's say you don't. What is the usefulness of telling people that, right? But I've just seen...

I don't know. I've seen people change. Yeah, I have too. You and I wouldn't do our jobs if we didn't. It is hard. It's really hard. One of my favorite quotes is, think about how hard it is to change yourself and then think about how hard it is to change another person. Oh, yeah, exactly. And there was a – did you ever watch Game of Thrones? No. Okay. So there was a character – Just here and there, but no. There was a character named Jaime Lannister. In the beginning of the show, you hate this guy. Oh, yeah.

And over time, you actually, he ends up kind of becoming a sympathetic character. And there's a scene where he's looking at this book and he was a member of the Kingsguard, which was basically like the secret service for the king, right? He ended up actually killing the old king because the old king was crazy and was killing people. And in the book where they're describing all the Kingsguard members and their history, it just says Jamie Lannister and basically like Kingslayer, right? Like killed the king, right? Yeah.

And he goes, I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember the exact quote, but he goes, I still have space left in my pages. And that is a quote that I've come back to a lot, which is like, because I do beat myself up. But it's a quote I've come back to a lot of, okay, you say both and, right? I'm a good guy. And yeah, I've gotten some stuff really wrong, right?

But I can do it different. I get to choose what happens next. I get to choose what happens next. But that comes through action, you know, and you can have compassion for yourself and still hold yourself accountable. That's right. And that's a difficult balance for a lot of us to walk. You can have compassion and there's still consequences. Yeah. Yeah.

But it, right. And I think one of the things that I've found, and it seems to be supported by literature, is like shame doesn't really work. Like it actually makes it worse in some cases, right? Like I thought, well, if I just beat myself up about this, I'll never do it again. No, because you don't end up like changing the wiring that got you there, right? And so I think when it comes to a lot of these behaviors with, I mean,

The stuff to do is not complicated. I think that's the thing I want people to walk away with is it's very hard and it's not complicated. It's simple. It's hard, but it's simple. It's like the baby steps, right? That's right. You look at those, you go, that's not complicated. Right. It's got to be more complicated than that, right? No. But it doesn't mean it's easy. It's very uncomfortable. Calories in, calories out. It's unnatural. Yeah, yeah. Well, it doesn't appear complicated, right?

Doesn't mean it's easy. No. And when I started using Carbon, like the app that you guys created, I was astounded that the peanut butter cups that I grab on the admin's desk walking by my cubicle every single day of my life had 120 calories each in them. Like what? I eat six of those a day. Just one here and one here. They're little bitty things. Yeah.

I worked out hard this morning, Lane, for an hour. I did 60 minutes. Yeah. And I think I was at 750. Yeah. So that hour that I burned this morning, getting after it. Which, by the way, you were actually more like 400 or 500. Of course. Because these overestimate, but... Disagree. Agree to disagree. I ate the whole thing back in...

Right. And so it's I didn't like it was uncomfortable when I'm just having a steak with the family. And it's like that steaks 3000 calories after you get done all the stuff on it. Right. And so it does take an adjustment. And the same as I tell young people when they're like, hey, we we can't afford our apartment. And I say here.

And I hate that for you because you've had a picture in your head for your whole life. And everyone told you, if you just go get this degree and get this job and get this thing, you can do whatever you want, wherever you want it. And they didn't tell you the truth because math doesn't care. And I hate it. Sell the car. Let's hug. Yeah. Y'all have to live in Kansas because it's cheaper to live there. If you want to be a book editor, if you like. So it's just this reckoning with reality. And I think for me, the quicker people can wrap their head around. Okay, here I am. Um,

the quicker you can get about the business of, I'm going to take the next right step. Yeah. I mean, like I was saying, don't smoke, exercise, don't eat too much. I mean, those are, if you do those three things,

I mean, don't drink or limit your alcohol intake. Don't do drugs. Sleep enough. - Sleep, yeah, have some friends. - That's 95% of it right there. Like we can argue in the margins, but that's it right there. - I think letting most people know, okay, it is fun to go down a conspiracy theory rabbit hole so that there's some secret group putting stuff in the water sources to make us all, that's cool, awesome. And I love those like anybody.

But let's pick up the dollars. You know what's really funny? So I read several studies that actually showed that stronger conspiracy theories

is like people who are more likely to buy into conspiracy theories are more likely to have narcissistic tendencies. Yeah. And I have those proclivities as well to like believe some of these things. That I'm seeing something that nobody else has seen. It's sexy, right? That's right. But there is a lot of it is because again, if there's some grand conspiracy working against you in the background, you don't have to take responsibility for your own bad choices you've made. Right. Or

walking through the hell that somebody else put in your life, right? Or like a market crash in 08. Well, if you weren't over leveraged, yeah, bad stuff happens, but bad stuff's always going to happen. What's the foundation you build your house on? Exactly. Thank you for being my friend. Thank you. For real. I'm glad you're my friend. And I'm glad you always pick up the phone when I call you. And I can't say that about a lot, so thank you.

Same. That means the world. All right. Hey, everybody, listen to this. Helix, the makers of the best mattresses in the universe, are having a New Year sale going on right now. I was traveling a ton this holiday season, and when I was out on the road, I was counting down the days until I could get back into my Helix mattress. Sleeping on my Helix mattress has transformed my rest, and I'm getting into new levels of deep, refreshing sleep.

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All right, that was my conversation with the great and powerful, literally great and powerful, Dr. Lane Norton. We're going to link to everything, including the Carbon app in the show notes. The Carbon app is the app that I use to help me maintain calories in, calories out, and energy usage, all that stuff. We're going to link to everything there. And if you get nothing else from this episode, know this. All of us, from world champions to knuckleheads like me to everybody,

We're all just trying to scratch and claw and make the world a little bit better place. And so if you ever feel like I'm not getting this perfect, I messed this up, even though I got this right, just know you're not alone. You're not alone. We're all walking through this madness together. And that's how we're going to get to the other side. Thanks for being with us. I love you guys. Stay in school. Now go lift some weights and eat some protein. Or, you know. Love you guys. Bye.

Hey, what's up, folks? Big news. The Dr. John Deloney Show is now available a full week early in the Ramsey Network app. That's right. You can catch all the real talk of mental health, relationships, emotional health before anyone else. And the best part, it's completely free. Just click the link in the show notes to download the Ramsey Network app and start watching early today.