Struggling to Trust My Wife After Catching Her in a Huge Lie
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It looks like she dropped the program about this time last year, and she has not gone back since to complete the degree, but she has continued to tell everybody that she's done with school and, you know, going as far as ordering a fake diploma, ordering a cap and gown. What up? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Maloney Show.

Taking real calls from real people all over the planet. People struggling with their emotional and mental health or relationships, just trying to figure out what's the next right move. Some of these calls are heavy. Some of these calls are light. Some of these calls are just all of us trying to figure out how to do our lives a little bit better with a little bit more peace, a little less chaos in a world gone mad.

So glad that you're with us. If you want to be on the show, go to johndeloney.com slash ask, A-S-K. Fill out the form and we'll holler back girl at you. I ain't no holler back girl. And then we will see if we can get you on the show. Let's go straight out to Cincinnati, Ohio and talk to Michael. What up, Michael? Hey, Dr. Deloney. How you doing, sir? Rocking on, brother. How are you, man?

A question or more of an issue with how do I approach my wife who has been lying to me about attending nursing school and also graduating nursing school as well? I don't know if you want me to give you some back story. Tell me some more about this one.

Yeah. Okay. So my, uh, uh, Mary, my wife, about a year, uh, we just, uh, August year, last year, or still Mary, excuse me, not, not, not, we're still Mary, excuse me. Um, she started a three-year nursing school program back in October of 2021. So it was going to commence, you know, this year, you know, end of August, I mean, September, end of August, early September. Um, so, you know, you know,

you know, as we approach the leading up to it, it just something seemed off and, you know, lo and behold, by doing some of my own research and, you know, finding out, it looks like she dropped the program about this time last year. Um,

And she has not gone back since, you know, to complete the degree. But she has continued to tell everybody that she's done with school and, you know, going as far as ordering a fake diploma, like ordering a cap and gown. She happened to get sick the morning of the graduation ceremony, you know, became very ill. So that's how we arrived at where we're at now. So what have your conversations been like with her?

I mean, I'd come up and ask her like, hey, like, you know, I know you're not done with school, you know, and then she tells me I am done with school. You know, I don't support her. I don't believe her. And, you know, stuff like that is kind of how it always goes. And it's just becoming mentally draining because, you know, it's just I know the truth, but she will not admit what's going on first to be able to move forward. And I just don't know what else I can do. What else does she lie to you about? Nothing really. It's just the school stuff.

We've been together since we were 17 to like 12 years. I mean, I don't really lie about anything else. It's just this seems to really be an anchor weighing her down when you get this stuff. I don't know if it's low self-esteem because, you know. Don't go about trying to solve it or diagnose it. It's just madness. It's just madness. So you ask, how do I approach her about her life? Yeah. Like straight through it.

Okay. Like, cause here's the deal. Through the wall. Here's the deal. Right through the wall. You think your wife is a liar of epic proportions. She says you to you, she says to your face, you're a gaslighter. You don't support her. You don't believe whatever.

You'll have to solve that gap. And so she can put down a transcript. She can log into her transcripts and solve all of this right now. And then you will have to deal with the fact that I didn't believe you. Go ahead. I bring that up to her. Like, you know, I, you know, I tell her like, you know, Hey, you know, she, you know,

You know, see, there's, you know, a video online of the commencement. You know, she tells me that's not, you know, that's not her school and, you know, stuff like that. And I say, hey, show me a transcript, you know, a degree audit, you know, from that. And she said, I shouldn't have to do that. And that's just kind of how I, you know, to me, if you...

you have nothing to hide, you know, you, you shouldn't be unwilling to do that, that simple thing to alleviate all this burden off of everybody, in my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong. Well, I mean, the, the interaction here is incredibly sophomoric. It's just, it's just very mature. Right. Right. And it's, it's one of those things that you are going to find yourself rolling around in the mud throwing Legos at somebody because they're sitting in the mud throwing Legos.

Right. And so you're like, well, you show me, I don't want to show you, you show me like you show me. And then pretty soon you're going to say, well, I'm taking my ball. I'm going home. Right. I mean, it just gets like, so I want to elevate the conversation because here's the deal. If your wife of one year has put on this big elaborate ruse, I'm telling you right now, I've been doing this job a long time. She's lying to you about other things, probably of grand significance.

It would be very out of the ordinary for there to be this level of long-term intricate deception. Right. And only be this thing. Where was she going when she said she was going to class?

Yeah. I mean, so I, I mean, I, I work, I work in like mortgage sales. So I go to an office three days a week and like, I'm at home to two others here. So like I go to an office. So like she, you know, would say that on Tuesdays, you know, cause he did have a schedule where like, it was one of those things where, you know, you take two classes and you go every, you go pretty much all year round. So you take two classes every eight weeks and so on from there. On Tuesdays, he's

That was like the remote class day. And of course, I'm in the office, and so I didn't know if she was doing homework or not. Where was she going when you were at home? On Thursday, she would leave and go somewhere. And now, lo and behold, she would just be around the school area and maybe sit in the parking garage for two hours. I mean, that's what I think happened. Bro, this is not well. I agree. That's why I'm talking to you. Yeah, you have to throw on every light you have in your house and call this because there's something else going on.

Right. If she got in a car and drove and sat in a parking garage for two hours. That's what I'm assuming she did. I don't, I, you know, I was busy working and stuff like that. Like, are you, let me put it this way. Are you a hundred percent sure she's making this up?

Yes, because there's another wrinkle. You can dissect this as you wish. She works part-time. She goes to school. They go to school part-time, so she works for nights. At one time, her laptop was left open, and I went into her school, like,

and she hasn't sent a school email in almost a year. So, and then, you know, when I ask her, hey, you know, why have you said, why is there no school email there? She says, I don't use my school and I use my personal. And like, I work for a big corporation. If I send stuff, my regular email, I'll get fired. But that was the first thing. And then, you know, her, like her, you know, coursework log, there,

There wasn't any courses taken in this year of 2024. That's why I'll piece it together. But the blackboard they use had no courses taken this year. That's how I put this all together. But there's some level of self-deception going on here with you also. You're being gaslit to the moon and back. Fine. That happens.

But you're either not being honest about the state of your marriage. You're not being honest about the general integrity of this person because she would be lying about other things and treating you in other ways and disappearing and spending money. And like, you don't have this really safe, vulnerable, connected, brand new marriage with this giant tumor on the side of it. That is, she's just going to go down to the, like, what is her end game? Not become a nurse. Yeah.

I don't know what her end game is. Or by the way, dude, you have to do a practicum, a nursing practicum. Has she been in a hospital in the last year?

Well, that's, that's the thing. Like when that's, that's what it like, you know, recently, you know, they correct. I mean, she, you know, tells me on, on, you know, that, uh, the Wednesday when they had a clinical, like, you know, that's the day they have clinical and she sells me, she went to clinical. Like I said, I'm not, I'm not at, I'm at work. So I don't, I don't know where she goes. I know it sounds like naive and stuff, but I mean, and who am I not to believe her? And now, now I look like a fool.

So here's what I want you to do. I want you to change the conversation in your house and it's going to cost you, okay? But you're going insane. I can feel it. You think? How can you tell? I can feel it through the phone that you're losing a grasp on reality, not in a psychotic way, but in a, you're looking in the mirror going, what am I missing? I want you to change the conversation to an affirmative stance. I believe you're not telling me the truth. I believe you're lying to me.

I've looked at this, I've looked at this, I've looked at this, I've looked at this. You might be able to call the school as, depending on what kind of, if she puts you on as an emergency contact under her Federal Education Rights and Privacy Act, the FERPA, she may have put you down as someone who can call in and ask about her grades. - If she's enrolled there at the time, is that correct? - You can ask for the enrollment status. I believe they can give that to you. It's been a minute since I looked at FERPA, so it's been about five years.

Well, they might not. It depends on what program she's in, actually, whether she can, they can, she has to give, she has to have told them they can give you permission to check and roll mistakes. But you can call. It's not, the worst thing I can tell you is I can't tell you that. But say I'm calling on behalf of my wife. I'm looking for her transcript. I can't find it. But you can call and get your questions answered the best you can. Maybe they won't answer them. But you have to act in the affirmative. Your marriage is falling apart right beneath you. And I don't think you want to acknowledge that.

This is madness. This is insane. Like she's saying she has a credentialed medical degree. You know what I mean? Like this isn't just. Well, yeah. Well, the thing is, too, also like the other thing is, you know, you can't find her name in the state registry either. And she just tells us, you know, that there's a glitch in the system. And, you know, Michael, Michael, Michael, Michael, you're going crazy.

You're now looking up the state. You know that she's lying to you. I know. I'm aware of that. Okay, so you got to deal with that. Yeah. And you have to deal with the fact that there's probably other things she's lied to you about. You have to deal with the fact that your marriage isn't what you thought it was. She's not who you thought she was. I'm not saying you have to get divorced, but I'm saying the marriage you had is now over. You have to decide whether you're going to build a new one, and it has to be one built on integrity, and no one ever tells a lie.

And so you have two options here and I'll give you the same options I gave my students when I was dealing with student conduct issues. You could try to catch her in a lie. You can call around, get all the information or whatever, or you can, and when you're doing that, the goal is to catch her, right? The goal is to be right. Or the goal can be to let the truth be free. I'm not telling you which one of these to do. I'm telling you there's two different paths you can take. The second path is sitting down and saying,

I am married to somebody who is so deep in a lie and can't get out of it. You have 48 hours to come sit down and tell your husband the truth about what happened the last year, where you've been, what's going on with you. I love you and I want to be with you and I'll walk with you through this. And the goal there is let's let the truth emerge so we can move on with our lives, whatever that means. The other is a game of cat and mouse. I don't want to catch you because the purpose of the interaction is to catch you. Does that make sense?

Yeah. I would always tell my students when they came in with drugs, assault, whatever. I've got your story. I've got my notes. You got 24 hours to come back. I'm going to count it as though you told me the truth. After that, it's going to compound in a really significant way because now you're a person who lacks integrity. And that's almost always, not always, but almost always worse than the original offense. But maybe you sitting down saying, I'll be with you when the smoke clears on this thing, but I'm not going forward.

You have 48 hours to come clean and tell me the truth. And then you have to have your or what moment and your or what moment is, what are you going to do if she says, how dare you forget it? I'm not leaving. Are you going to move out? Are you going to kick her out? Are you going to try to get your marriage annulled? Like, what are you going to go do? You have to spend some time with your or what, but I think if you spend some time with your or what you're going to spend some time, honestly, reflecting, she probably has not been a person who's told you the truth throughout your relationship.

or she's fudged the edges or been an exaggerator or forgot to tell you about one boyfriend she went out when y'all were on a quote unquote on a break, like Ross said, right? This is just madness. Throw all the lights on. This situation needs an adult. You are lying. You got 48 hours to come clean. I'll sit here with you. I'll love you. We'll walk through this thing together, but you got 48 hours. This ruse is over and we'll figure out what's going to happen next.

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All right, we are back. Hey, don't forget you can download the Ramsey Network app, which is the network that hosts this show. You can check out all the show and you get it up to a week early, even the video. You can click the link in the show notes for more details. All right, let's go out to Charleston, South Carolina and talk to Ashley. What's up, Ashley? Hey, Dr. John. What's up?

I have a question for you. I want to know if you have any tips on how I can change from being a negative person to a more positive, friendly person. Well, I work with Kelly Daniels, so I've got a lot of insight on this one. I feel like I tend to be a realist, but I'm also kind of riddled with anxiety. I get nervous a lot and I have trouble...

kind of staying present in the moment. Like, it feels like no matter what I'm doing, I don't feel like I get excited a whole lot anymore. And I kind of struggle to express the positive things. And I feel like I just express the negative to my friends. Like, I'm trying to be conversational. And then I realize, oh, that sounded really negative. And I think it just comes out all the time. I feel like I've been stuck in a pattern of negativity for a pretty long time. Yeah.

That's a heavy air to breathe, isn't it? It's exhausting to be awake, isn't it? Yeah. Have you found it begin to spiral on you where you found yourself, man, I'm more negative, and then all of a sudden you look up and two years later it's all the time, every breath, every thought, everything? Yeah. Yeah, I think that's where I'm at. What is your, and you may not know off the top of your head, but what is your body trying to protect you from? I like to start from a place of our bodies are usually right.

And in your situation, bodies are often trying to protect us from unsafe economic situations. You owe a bunch of money or unsafe work situations. You're being asked to do things that are unethical. Your job may go away at any time. Or unsafe or lonely relationship issues. You don't have any ride or dies. Your body's identified that you don't have any friends. Yeah, I feel like...

I don't know. I feel like maybe just mean people in general. I feel like maybe I've lost faith in humanity and I feel like everybody could be judging me at any moment for anything. They could, but why would it matter? I don't know why it matters. Tell me about your mom and dad. I was growing up.

It was good. I had a good childhood. They divorced once all the kids moved out. Okay. Which tells me there was stuff going on throughout the whole marriage. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I remember in childhood kind of telling my friends I wish they would just get divorced because they did argue a good bit. Yeah. How did you get your parents' attention?

Um, I don't know. I know I ran away a few times. Um, not really ran away, but we, we lived on a few acres, so I would just run to the woods and hide all day. Um, I don't know. I think I was very loud. No. Okay. Uh, I was, I was, I mean, I was on the AB honor roll. I did work really, really hard, um, at school. I,

I think school was harder for me than I ever really realized, and I was just working really hard to get good grades. Why did you need to get good grades so badly? I mean, for sure, we reviewed the report card. It definitely felt like it was expected, and I kind of put a competition on me and my siblings. I was always proud that I was the only one who never got an F in college.

I feel like I make everything a competition, really. Well, if coming out on top is the way you survived as a kid, is the way you got distance between you and the next person who was going to get yelled at or ignored or shunned or screamed at or hit, that's a good place to be. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Coming out on top is definitely like a goal. That's right. Coming out on top can be a trauma response, too.

And if you have a house with two dysregulated adults screaming at each other, ignoring each other, you can feel the tension in the house all the time so bad that you can go run and sit in the woods. Then coming out on top is a way to get out above the clouds, to get away from that nonsense and get other stable adults to pat you on the back and say, I see you. Good job. For sure. But the things that were supposed to keep you the most safe in the whole world, your mom and your dad, they didn't. They were too busy with themselves going to war. Mm-hmm.

So you have two competing stories, reality and this other story. My childhood was great, which is exactly how you started the call. Right. It was heavy. But also you've been a people pleaser. You've been a peacemaker, peacekeeper. Yeah. Is that fair? Your job has been to make sure everybody else is okay forever? Yeah.

Oh, for sure. I know there was one point in high school where I tried to plan their anniversary date, and I could just tell it was about to fall apart, and I wanted to make something really special for them. Ashley, you know they didn't get divorced because of you, right? Yeah. And you know there's not a damn thing you could have done to keep them together, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Sometimes when our whole life has been about squashing what we need, what we want, what we love, what brings us joy, what makes us laugh, squashing all of that in an effort to keep mom and dad together, to keep little brother from getting hit, to keep our grades all perfect so we can get a certificate from the school counselor, the assistant principal, your body just begins to get rageful because all that crap is trapped in there. Yeah. Yeah. And everything is a cynical twist.

Everything has a, oh yeah, there's another side to that story. Because you live the other side of the story. Everybody in your neighborhood thought your family was great. Fair? Yeah. So I say this a lot on the show. I'll unpack it a little bit for you. The things that kept you safe as a kid will destroy your adult relationships. It'll make being alive as an adult miserable. The things that kept you safe as a kid was making sure everybody else is okay to the detriment of your own sanity.

The things that kept you safe as a kid was constantly always being on guard to emotionally regulate the two adults in your life. You've been chasing variables and your whole life. And now you're in a world where who knows what the government, who knows, can't trust anybody. Education, I don't know. Science, I don't know. Medicine, I don't know. Like the whole world seems to have all the strings pulled on it. And here's the deal. It's so easy to fall into the trap of pessimism and sarcasm.

It's all coming down. Oh, yeah, you know this. Can you believe, right? You see what I'm saying? Yeah. It's false control. It feels like you're grabbing hold of all the potential bad things. Brene Brown calls it dress rehearsing tragedy. You are pre-thinking all the negative stuff. You're telling everybody that's how you're trying to bond with the worst things that could possibly happen. And then your body realizes that you're pushing everybody away. They don't want to be around that. You don't want to be around that, right? Yeah. Are you married? I am. How's your marriage?

Not great. Tell me about it. Well, he has a nine on the ACEs test or whatever you guys call that. And I mean, I have a one. You know, my parents argued, but there is no violence or anything. I think I have a one. I may have a zero. So we come from different worlds. Hey, Ashley, I can promise you based on what you've told me, you have more than a one.

For whatever it's worth, the ACE score is not a competition either. Yeah. Okay? Yeah. And your mom and dad don't need you to protect them anymore. Okay? Okay. But you married another guy that you're trying to fix, right? Trying to make sure it's going to be okay. Absolutely. You're realizing in real time you can't do anything about that, right? Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah, we've been married eight years and we have two kids. Yeah. And we just...

We've just always argued a lot. Yeah, you got two people's bodies in that house, two nervous systems that are just playing whack-a-mole with each other. Yeah, things that can be good for a pretty good time, like six months or so, we'll go with no arguments, but we're also not really, we're not connecting on deep levels. No, it's avoidance. Yeah, avoidance.

Right. It's not real peace. It's just a lack of bombs, but there's no peace. Yeah. Will your husband go get counseling? Will he do the work? No, I don't think he will. I mean, honestly, this last fight we had, it was pretty much, if we don't do counseling, we're going to have a separation for a while. What was his response?

He said, okay, we'll do it. This is after, you know, I think year one, I said we should do it. So we did it. We did three. And then we kind of just stopped. I think I mentioned to him one time, you know, when would you like to schedule the next one? And he's like, you think we need it? And we just haven't done it again. Why kept you in that moment from saying absolutely we do? Because I feel like,

I don't know. I can tell you. I think you feel like what you actually feel and what you want doesn't matter. True. Ashley, you're worth more than that. Your kids are worth more than that. Your husband and your marriage is worth more than that. Yeah. Here's your path forward, okay? And it's a rocky, rocky, rocky path. Number one, you can only control what you can control. And that's your thoughts and your actions and that's it. That's it. The first thing is you've got to honor your body. Your body's trying to keep you safe.

You have a home life that you haven't fully come to reckon with telling the truth about it. It was hard and scary. You've got a marriage that's really, really tough because you're married to a guy that went through a lot of hurt and hell growing up. You got two kids. It's chaotic. You're in year eight, which is always just a stressful season. Your body is right to be bitter about the world. You don't have a safe place, right? Yeah. That sounds so cheesy. You have no place where your shoulders drop and you just laugh. Right. Right?

So your homework assignment is to go be honest about what that place would look like and ask your husband, would you build that with me? And he might say no. Yeah, I think one of the biggest problems with me trying to come up to him with something is not that he'll say no. He'll say, well, really, he'll just laugh at me and say, really? And...

make it seem like it's something stupid first. He'll go along with things, but it's only if I'm pushing it and if I'm pushing it past the way he's making me feel about it. So do you want to not have it or do you want to have it and you carry the lion's share of the weight for the first bit? Yeah, I guess I could do that.

But there's a sitting down and saying, hey, in the past, you make fun of me. You hurt my feelings. You laugh at me. Please don't do that this time. I'm being vulnerable with you. I want to have a different kind of marriage and I want you to be happy that you're home and I want to be happy that I'm home. Here's what that looks like. I've written it out for me. I would love for you to write that out for you. And please don't make faces at me. Please don't roll your eyes. And if he does, if he dishonors your vulnerability in that way, then that gives you a firmer foundation

to deal with the reality that he's not the man that you think he is. Yeah. Often, women do it, but men do it the most. They make jokes. They go, are you serious? Because they're so uncomfortable. It's not a pass. It's not a, it's not a, it's just a lack of skills. And so they laugh, they roll their eyes, like I'm doing that. Most men would love to have the woman of their dreams sit across the table and say, I want to go all in with you.

But men are so utilitarian and competency-based, they don't know what that means or how to do that. And so the only way they can protect themselves is by rolling their eyes and laughing. And so is this a cop-out? No. Is this the way it should be? No. Is this reality? Yes. Sometimes it takes somebody, an interested member of this marriage team to say, here's what I want this thing to look like. I want to go all in. Here's the roadmap to my heart. I would really appreciate if you'd give me a roadmap to yours.

And I think you need to sit down and be honest about writing a letter to your mom and dad. Don't ever send it, but be honest about what you experienced. I want you to write a letter to nine-year-old you who's running and hiding in the woods because of all the screaming. And I want you to write a letter to five years from now you. You're just running the same script you ran as a kid, and it'll keep you distant from hurt, but it's going to always avoid connection. And I want that for you. And he's going to have to make some choices to change his life too.

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Hey folks, we all have stories. We have the family and cultural stories we were born into. We have the stories of the good and challenging things that have happened to us. And we have the stories we are constantly telling ourselves, both good and not so good. The stories of our pasts and the stories we have yet to write about our future are powerful. And while you can't go back and change any of your old stories, the world is waiting to see what story you're going to write next.

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Start writing a new story this month with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash Deloney to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Deloney. All right, let's go out to Sydney, Australia and talk to Abby. Hey, Abby, what's up? Hi, how are you doing, Dr. John? I'm doing okay. How about you?

No, thanks for having me, man. I was just wondering, how do I best address my friend's harmful patterns without making them feel abandoned? I know it's a bit of a loaded one. Yeah, tell me about it. So I've had this friend for...

A long time now. It's only been 20 years. And I care about them deeply. They're one of my closest friends. But unfortunately, they've had a lot going on through their life. And every couple of years, it's almost like clockwork. They fall into a deep depression. And I'm always there for them, which I always will be. But it's getting to a point now where the self-harm and the...

And the destructive, like, behaviors are just, the repetition is, it's a lot to not see them trying to help themselves in any way. Like, and I don't know how to. Tell me about self-harm. What kind of self-harm? So, self-harm in the sense of, like, with medications and with,

physical self-harm like with blades and stuff too. Cutting, okay. When you say medications are these suicide attempts? I'd say yes with the medication with the cutting not so much because it's not in the

the right way, I guess you could say. I think the self-harm in the cutting is more of a trying to feel something different than their own mental health problems for a moment, which is really sad. How long has the cutting been going on? Since before I've known them, to be honest with you, and I've known them since we were teenagers. How has the cutting escalated over that time?

It's just gotten worse, like deeper and... Yeah, like deeper, I guess you could say. And my most recent experience with them, it was pretty bad. And unfortunately, my friend won't allow...

It sounds so silly. I'm so sorry, Dr. John, but they won't allow me or my friends to call any actual emergency services or take them to a hospital because they don't believe that they'll actually get help there. They think that they're going to get thrown away in a psych ward or something and it's just not how it works and we've tried to explain that to them and

It's just getting to a point now where it's really...

really hard to stop everything going on in my life to do this every time this happens but there's that conflicting feeling of of course I'm going to stop what's going on in my life to help them but yeah it's just at a point now where I just feel so weird about it because my friend won't even accept the help when we're trying to give it so number one I'm going to tell you that I wish the world had more friends who cared like you

Thank you. Like all the way across the planet. I want you to feel me saying I'm grateful for you. Thank you. It's pretty amazing. And I would love to spend several hours just having nachos with you and listening to your story about how you came to become a person who just cares so deeply. It's pretty amazing. So I want to change directions a bit, but I'll loop us all the way back around. Okay. Yeah. What do you do for a living?

I'm an artist. You're an artist, okay. Yeah, I do tattoo work. Okay. So let's say you have a friend named Dan, and Dan has a small flat in Sydney. And one day Dan calls you in the middle of the night, screaming, come over, come over, come over. And because you're Abby, you're who you are. You ask no questions. You grab your small bag, and you are on your bike, and you're there in no time.

And you run in the door and all of Dan's toilets have exploded. They're just pouring water and urine and cha-cha-cha-cha-cha all over the place, right? Yeah. And you're getting drenched and the smell is dreadful and Dan is in the middle of the house screaming. And there's several other friends over and you're like, what are we doing? And he's like, I don't know. My toilets have exploded. Yeah.

And you say, well, I'm calling emergency services. And he's like, no, no one's calling the plumber. You have to fix this, Abby. And you're thinking, I'm an artist. I do not know how wax seals on toilets work and plumbing. I don't know anything. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. Your love for your friend is clouding the fact that this is far, far exceeded your ability to help her.

Yeah. And help is different than sit with. I'll always be there. Yeah. But as a friend, I refuse to watch you sit by me and die. And so if you want to call it abandonment, fine. And by the way, there is a cutting doesn't raise my eyebrow one iota. I've dealt with cutting my entire career. And there's an escalation to cutting.

That becomes a dress rehearsal for something worse. It becomes like the act of dying by suicide is so unnatural to the body. There can be an escalation, a practicing, if you will. Yeah. And what you're describing to me as cuts that are so bad, you and your friends are trying to call emergency services and they're screaming, don't do it, demanding not to do it.

I want you to drop your shoulders and finally exhale, not in a powerless way, but in a powerful way. I am over my head now. I'm calling in every authority I can call because I value your life. And if you don't like me or you get mad at me, so be it. I'll be happy to know that you are alive, hating me than planning your funeral. Yeah. And so the greatest gift we can do some, the greatest gift we can give others sometimes when they are acting like

uh irrationally is to not take them other things they say in those moments as rational right somebody that is hurting themselves to that level have you had to have you had to put the wounds back together hold them yeah okay yeah so somebody lands at that level and you're holding compresses you are taping people like you've stitched like you've you've been there right i've seen this

And then, so you're seeing somebody do something that is not rational, which is to injure themselves, not just to feel pain, but to hurt. Yeah. And yet they say, don't call anybody or else. Well, that's, I want you to hear that is not rational either. Okay. Not picking and choosing which one. Now, when I tell you, I want you to sit down with your friend and say, hey, you've got 24 hours. I'm going to go with you. I'm going to be with you every step of the way that they'll allow me, but you got to go get professional help because I'm not going to watch you die. Yeah.

Imagine yourself saying that and tell me what's in your guts. Where do you feel the resistance to that conversation? I think just because we've... Maybe because we've had that conversation before, but maybe I haven't been as...

as direct as what you've just said. I've spoken to them about seeing someone or coming with me to see someone together and I can just sit in the room if they need me to or I'll sit outside of the room. But every single time it's, no, no, I'm not doing that. I don't want to. And that's where my frustration is lying, I think. Well, and that's where you have to make the choice. Yeah. This sounds harsh, to protect you. Yeah.

And I want you to make the choice to refuse to watch your friend wither and die in your presence over a period of 20 years. I refuse to, I refuse. And so the conversation does get very direct. It's not a matter of, hey, I would love it tonight. Why don't, please make the call. I'll go with you. It's not it. The conversation is, here's the deal. By the end of this evening, you will be in psychiatric care. You want me to drive you? Or do you want them to come here and give you a shot and strap you down?

You get to pick. I would love to drive you. You don't care about me. You're this, you're that. Swear words, screaming, I hate you. Oh my gosh, you're abandoning me. Great. I get that. I get you're mad. I believe you. Which choice would you like? Choice A, I drive you, or B, tonight's the night you go get help. And do you see the difference? I'm going to begin to squeeze every option you have out. And I don't know the laws in Australia. I don't know if she can just go sign herself out after a 72-hour hold. I don't know all the rules in Australia.

But that's the kind of conversation I'm going to have with a close friend that I love. And for whatever it's worth, I've had that conversation with people that I love. And it's almost always, it's almost universally the person who's hurting exhales because they can't keep carrying all of this. Yeah.

Right. My friend's a good person too. Of course she is. They deserve to feel like they belong here. That's right. Yes. Yeah. I think that's where it hurts. Like I don't even want to tell them that I've been sad and upset about this because I don't want to put extra pressure on them.

But it's just, man, like, you know, we all love you and we all want you here. And I know that sometimes that's not enough for some people, but, like, they have so much support and so many people that care. Yeah. Like, yeah, I just hope, yeah, that in the next conversation they can actually...

As you said, they might turn around and be like, I hate you. But yeah, you're right. I would rather them be disgruntled and upset with me for doing the right thing than just sitting there and letting them... I will risk the oldest, longest, most connected friendships I have for life and death. Every step of the way. And I...

I've been through this conversation so many times with close friends, with people that I do professionally. I've almost taken it as a responsibility of somebody saying, like, I imagine life in a car, and they're screaming, I can't drive this thing. Please come take the wheel. Okay.

And I need you to hear me say, Abby, when somebody gets to that situation, there's not a thing you can say that you haven't already said. They're going to go, oh, you're right. You're right. Here's how to drive. They've decided I'm not driving. So they can move over or you can pick them up and put them in the back seat, but you have to take the wheel. And in this case, it's exceeded your capacity, exceeded your ability. And that's great. That's good. That's why we have amazing professionals who will come in and walk alongside her.

Absolutely. And your goal here is not to be liked. Your goal here is not to make sure she's quote unquote okay. The goal is to be a kind of friend who wades through fire and does the right thing, especially when it's hard. Yeah. Can I leave you with one other piece of just as honest truth as I can lay on you? Absolutely. Take a big deep breath and hold it. Three, two, exhale it. Drop your shoulders, okay? All right, can you hear me? Yeah. Okay.

There's a very real possibility that you do everything right here and there's not a great outcome. Yeah. And the trend line you're telling me is especially concerning to me. And so I want you to make peace with the very limited amount of control you have in the situation. Okay? Yes. Yes. Is that hard? God, it's the worst thing you can imagine. Yes. But you can do everything right here.

call in every professional call in every situation and your friend do something irreversible and you can choose to spend the rest of your life wondering maybe i shouldn't have said anything maybe i shouldn't have maybe i shouldn't have or you can spend the rest of your life exhaling knowing i'm heartbroken that i lost my friend but i did everything i did the next right thing every time i could especially when it came to knowing when i was over my head and needed to call some professionals

And I know that's a sad, heartbreaking place to be. But when people that I work with are hurting in this way, I always leave space for. There are still autonomous adults that can make decisions that are terrifying and scary and heartbreaking for all of us who remain. Yeah. And I'm going to do everything in my power to prevent that. But you get what I'm saying? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. Give me a pulse. Give me a pulse check.

How are we doing? Did you think this is what I was going to say? Are you like, man, you suck. Yeah, no, no, no. I actually really appreciate it because, you know, here I am in my head going, have I done this? Can I do that? Should I do this? And really like you've given me,

Direction of what I can do next, but the permission, which I know really give myself permission, but reminding me to give myself permission to breathe and realize that it's not all on me. At the end of the day, they are an adult with their own decisions to make too. I can only do so much. And you're past that.

Yeah. And let me promise you with all my guts, promise you, promise you, promise you, promise you, you would much rather be on the side of this friend not ever wanting to talk to you again and them still being alive than going to a funeral and wondering what would have happened if I'd called. Yeah, yeah. I promise you that, okay? I'd rather you mad at the psychiatric hospital because something happened while she was there than you look in the mirror and say, I should have called.

I really appreciate that. You're going to make the call? Like a month. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm proud of you. This may be the most loving act of kindness you've ever waded through. And it's an honor to have gotten to talk with you. I really appreciate speaking to you. Thank you. Will you holler back and let us know how the conversation goes?

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. All right. Thank you for blessing us with your bravery. It's been an honor to get to talk to you. The world needs more friends like you. Thank you, Dr. John. And thank you for what you do. I really appreciate the time that you spend with all of us. So thank you. You got it, my sister. Thank you so much. We'll be praying for you guys.

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All right, we're back. All right, Kelly, what happened now?

All right, so I've got an Am I the Problem, which people, I still need more. So reach out, make sure you put Am I the Problem in the subject line. Send me those. Cool crap that happened and Am I the Problem. Now, I realize this actually airs in January, so it'll be after the holidays. But for now, it's Thanksgiving week, and this is kind of a holiday-themed one. But it's still a good one. All right, let's do it. All right, so she says, I've been married for five years to my husband. For the holiday, one of his adult children has started hosting dinner at their house.

a couple years prior. However, my husband's ex-wife and her parents are invited as well because that's the child that's hosting, that's the child's mother. I went for the first time and I was pretty uncomfortable. They were married for many years before she left him for another man. I feel insecure in matters that involve her because I still wonder if he secretly wishes he was with her. So last year, I made separate holiday plans for my side of the family.

Now another holiday is approaching and I don't feel like spending my holiday with his ex walking around with a fake smile on my face. Am I the problem? P.S. All of the children are grown adults. Yeesh. I mean, no, I'm not. There's nothing clinical about this. This is just straight from John's guts. If my wife left me for another dude and Hank has holidays and he invites us all,

Number one, I'm going to call Hank and be like, dude, what are you doing? Like, I'm not doing that. And two, yes, I would always wonder, right? And if I bring in my new wife, she's always going to wonder, like, would John still want to be married to her if she had no left hip? Yeah. Whole thing just sucks. I'm not doing that. I wouldn't do that. That's probably my final answer.

Because now I'm talking myself out of it. Also, I'm like... I was going to say, you don't seem real secure in that answer. Put a fake smile on your face and go to dinner for two hours and get on with your life. Exactly. I can sit on both sides of it. Be super, super obnoxiously flirty. Flirty. Lick the side of his face. That'd be so awesome. It's like, will you pass the whipped cream? That's so great, man. Like...

You could choose to have fun because, yeah, you know what? I'm changing my whole answer. Screw everything I just said. Listen, I'm an external processor. I'm processing this in real time. She said, I'm wondering if he is. That's your husband. Ask that question. Right. Ask the question. And if he says, absolutely not. I hated her. She left me for another dude. Hopefully he says, yes, in a perfect world. I wish I still had my old life.

That world's over. It's gone. I'm so glad I have you. Because there's a reality that if she doesn't run off, they don't have their life. I just have to call that out. I'm happy to be doing life with you. And I'm going to give kudos to the husband because he is still – this is the way I'm viewing it. He is still, I'm thinking for his children's sake, willing to spend his holiday because he wants to spend it with his son.

That, you know, he's man enough and adult enough is more the thing to say, even if she's there, they're still the parents. And we talked about this before. When you marry somebody with kids, I don't care if they're grown kids or little kids. That's what you married into. You married into it. Yes. And you got to figure that out. So I changed everything I said. Put a smile on your face. Just go. Just go. Be awkward and weird. Have some fun with it.

Make a lot of like digs. Make it, I'm all about, yeah, I'll go for it. Yes. But you can just go. Or maybe be an extremely pleasant person. Yeah. Be over the top kind. Kill them softly with kindness. That's not really what Lauryn Hill says. No, I think that's kind of a few things all together there. I kind of just mushed Lauryn Hill in the Bible. But listen, just be overly kind. Put a smile on your face. It's a thing you got to do once a year. You married into it. You married into it. And maybe lick his face.

Maybe lick his face at the table or just put shaving cream all over his face and rub it real slow and be like, remember, he'll be like, Nope, Nope, Nope. That's, that's what I'm doing. That's what I, that's what I say. You're in Kelly. Mine is the shaving cream. Yes. Whipped cream, grody. I'm a shaving cream. Oh, I meant whipped cream, shaving cream, whipped cream. Oh yeah. Bye. Love y'all.

Hey, what's up, folks? Big news. The Dr. John Deloney Show is now available a full week early in the Ramsey Network app. That's right. You can catch all the real talk of mental health, relationships, emotional health before anyone else. And the best part, it's completely free. Just click the link in the show notes to download the Ramsey Network app and start watching early today.