Faith, Family, and 80+ #1 Hits - Ashley Gorley's Songwriting Saga :: Ep 57 Try That in a Small Town Podcast
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15 locations at eSpaces.com. That's eSpaces.com. eSpaces.com. Basically, my first songwriting was making remixes of like, I'd find like an acapella and put different music to it or something. Wow. Just kind of writing. Um,

loved hip-hop R&B pop and Country I loved all of it but I would definitely sit there and mess around and match up tempos Nashville's so great and Country is definitely the spot for a songwriter I will say it seems like the place where you can still magically get a song recorded because somebody loves it they don't know who you are they don't care they love it we're cutting it tomorrow that kind of thing it's hard to find anywhere else you know if you were coming to town or you had somebody that was talented or thought that's what they wanted to do since you

Currently the most successful commercial songwriter of all genres of music, surpassing even Paul McCartney. What would you tell that kid to do? Yeah, I wish I could tell him to move here in 2000 instead of... I know, right? You talk about it all the time. That's the difference is that I don't know how much longer I could have... I mean, I wrote with a publisher for seven years without a hit. The Try That in a Small Town podcast begins now. Try that in a small town.

All right, welcome back to the Try That in a Small Town podcast. Going to be filming tonight. We got K-Lo, we got Thrash, TK, I'm Kurt. And tonight, I was looking at some of these stats, guys. This is stupid. I don't believe it. Yeah. I think he needs his own ticker. He's written over 80 number one songs. You can clarify when we get there. That's not even possible. From Morgan Wallen to Bon Jovi. I've done the math. Carrie to our favorite Jason Aldean, of course. Yeah.

11-time ASCAP Songwriter of the Year. Give it up, Ashley Gourley. Thank you for coming out here. It's been a minute, so we've been trying to get you on here. What were his excuses for not coming on? They were good excuses. The pay-up. That makes sense. I would say baseball games.

This is my life, yeah. He was going to do it on June 12th, but there's some Hall of Fame thing in New York that he's got to go to. We'll talk about that here in a little bit. But Ashley and I have been buddies for a long time. Both went to Belmont. Long time. I mean, it was years ago. He's not near as old as I am. But I did the math, actually. Is your 48 now? Yes, just now. Is it 80? Is it 81? Yeah.

81 number ones or 85? What is it? It's 84. So it's roughly like 1.768 number ones since you've been born. I started early. I'm glad I laid all these work tapes down when I was three. I wonder, you know. I like math. That's fun. That's an unbelievable amount of number ones. I was thinking on the way over here, like Tiger Woods has won over 100 golf tournaments. Easy. Yeah.

Easy, right? But he's got over 30 some number twos.

But not as many as Nicholas. So it is. But my question is, I'm sure you don't know how many number twos you have. I don't know. But what's one that stands out, a song that only went to number two? Yeah, two, three, four, five, ten, fifty, a hundred. Some of my favorite ones, they all don't go. So I've had a few top fives. Speaking of Jason, Laugh Until You Cry went top five, barely. Kevin Some Hill, by heart, he's one of my favorite ones that went top five.

A song called All Over the Road, a song called Why You Wanna, there's a Chris Young song. There's a few Tim McGraw songs that went top five, but not one. There's been a few. Not like 100 or anything crazy like that. That'd be awesome, but enough to come close. And some people don't realize, I mean, those songs still have huge impact. Yeah, yeah, they all don't go. There's a lot of things that can, number one's a little bit luck timing. I mean, songs like Break Up in a Small Town, didn't write that. Girl Crush, a bunch of huge songs went to two or three.

We found out that, of course, we used it, but the Heads Carolina, Tails California song didn't go number one. Really? The original went to like three or four. I didn't know. I'm like, how in the world did that not? I know. That doesn't make sense. Hey, I'm glad you brought that up because I've always wanted to ask, what was...

Whose idea was that to take that song and kind of revamp it? I can't own that idea, but Cole Swindell, huge 90s country fan, I think he just wanted to take one and do something. The general idea was to take a great 90s song and try to flip it in some way. And I think he kind of got some opinions. I know Rusty Gaston at Sony was one of the ones that

told him that it was the most karaoke song ever. It was Ed Scarline. I think he made that up, which is funny. That's definitely not in Stone anywhere. And so I think it was cool he went with a female song and that song in particular, obviously. But I think they tossed around a few and that one fit the bill. Good call. People don't understand. Out there, our listeners don't understand what he's attained now.

How almost, it's almost impossible if you're like, if you've been doing it like we've been doing it for 30 years or whatever, and we all know how hard, we worked at one point, I don't work near as hard as I used to, and I certainly don't work as hard as this guy does, obviously. But to attain what he's attained, it's like, I've done the math in my head, I'm going to

It's hard enough to even get a good song written, and then it's hard enough to get a song cut, and then it's hard to get a song on a record, to make the album, and then to be singled. It's absolutely mind-boggling. It's a crazy thing. I don't think it'll ever be done again. There's no way. But however...

Not that I called the number, but I did call it. You did call it. Yeah, you were an early believer. It was our first writer, our second writer. Dude, I mean, way too early. You called what? I called that he'd be the most successful songwriter in Nashville in either our first or second show. What made you say that? What made you say that? Were you just brown-nosed? Because when you said that, I remember the first night, you were like, you're good. At the time, I was the big dog. The first three songs were good. At the time, he had three number ones. He didn't have anything. True.

But how did you know that? He had my first two or three with me, for sure. I mean, nobody. He was the most believing one early on, for sure. You're the catalyst? Is that what you're saying? What I'm saying is. No, absolutely. You're the ramp? What I'm saying is, you know, he started writing with me. We did have five number ones together. Boom. Now, it's possible and quite likely that he has more number ones than I do. But all that says is that what an incredible mentor I was.

We had Carrie, that Carrie song. That was the first one almost 20 years ago. It's 2006, I remember. What made you say that about him, though? I don't know why he got in a room with me. I had no idea. Well, you're obviously very, very talented at writing a song, a commercial song.

But what made you say that to him? Yeah, because I hadn't had any. It was really everything. It was the first two rights. And the first one, I think, was Morgan Hayes, right? Don't forget to remember me. I think the first one was Tom Well-Wasted. Or Tom Well-Wasted. And the next one was Don't Forget to Remember Me. So Tom Well-Wasted, that he'd came in with the idea. And generally, you know, I would be an idea guy. Generally, you do. Right?

to be honest. You usually do. And so I would be bringing ideas in, but he brought in this idea and he kind of just threw it around like, I have had this, you know, laying around a little bit and mumbled out a little thing, mumbled out something called time well wasted. And he, and he started kind of rolling out this melody and everything. I'm like,

I got this incredible. I thought he was like, all right, we're going with the first thing I say. So we can get this over with. I had no idea. It was good. Yeah. But it fell out. It's one of those, you know, old school, three prong country songs, you know, story in the first different story. And then the bridge hits them differently and all the things and wrapped it around. And his melody was just so right. Like, like when he, he just rolled it out and I'm just kind of writing things down. And, uh,

And it was just at the end of it, I was just listening to it. I had a little work tape and it was an actual cassette tape. It wasn't even, we had phones, I don't think. I mean, I think it was on a little cassette tape. And I called him later, you know, and I said, dude, this thing's incredible. And he's like, really? I remember, don't forget to remember, you almost got mad because you're like, hey, do you know what just happened? I go, no, what do you mean? You know, like on the way home, he called me. He was like, that song's unbelievable. I was like,

All right. I thought to myself, well, I guess he knows. We'll see. But I just didn't know. At that time, I was just going, putting hours in and trying to figure it out. And I don't know if he was just being super nice at the time or if he actually meant it. But him. Yeah, he was not nice. Yeah, Kelly was not nice. Kelly, for sure, the first one to, and he even got me in the room to write the third one. Well, and even on the Don't Forget to Remember Me, which was a Kerry song, we wrote it.

for Morgan Hayes, which married to Chris Stapleton. It was for her, you know, at the time, right? And I had the idea, and Ashley just had this melody that was perfect for it, and Morgan singing and throwing out lines that we were done just super early, and I'm just sitting there thinking...

man that's a hit too i'm like i want to write with this guy all the time yeah because we're just so easy but even on that second day because i was believe it or not i was late the first day right but so on the second day that we did have phones because he texted me said it said hey say i'm gonna i'm gonna be there at 10 or 10 30 whichever one said said you can be on time you can be late like like last time and i went oh that's

I was just developing the friendship there. Oh, he's a pusher. He's pushing me early, which I liked it, you know, but he, but he was, he was like that. He was getting, getting it, getting it going. And then, and then on, and we'll go to another, another topic, but, but you'd mentioned like the, the third one on when I'll get to that in a second, I do want to say this about titles and this is Ashley's title. And I think it's fun for writers out there. Cause we have a lot of people in the row. They're listening to this and a lot of writers, you know, all over the place, but,

But on that title, you know, I actually kept saying, when's Paisley, is he going to record it? You know, and at the time, you know, we're good buddies on the same farm. You have unlimited access, you know, just like you guys with Aldine. And I said, man, I pitched it to him. You know, we pitched him for at least an album or two. Oh, Time Well Wasted. Time Well Wasted. And Brad keeps saying, I know the song. I love it. I can sing it right now. I know every word of it. It's great.

so why don't you record it he goes he goes he goes i don't know but i love it and so i went into right with ashley and said what are we gonna write today and i said i said i don't know i said said brad needs it he needs an album title and the song was a year year old at least you know if not two and we already missed an album and then we said he said all right he goes because let's try to think of something then we sat there for a minute and started thinking well what time will waste that's the album title that's what he needs to

record we don't need to write anything so he was playing i don't know if it was it was uh whatever it was happening downtown but his bus was down by bridgestone i don't know what it was called then but

Anyway, went down there and I called him, told him about it. I said, that's the name of your album is time well wasted. You know, time well wasted recording album time, time well wasted in life and love all the things. And he said, he said, he goes, he goes, all right, bring it down here. And that time is a physical CD. You had to bring down. You couldn't, you couldn't send anything. Couldn't send a text anywhere down there. And I was so excited and everything. But anyway, that ended up being the album title, the tour titles all over all the 18 wheelers. And,

And Paisley and his organization made millions of dollars, and Ashley and I made $16,000 because they never did single. What year was that? Gosh, I don't know. It was a long time ago. That was one of the biggest records. But all that to say, that actually started helping me think, even in ideas, like when I'm trying to generate ideas, I would think, what's a good album title idea? Tour title. Tour title. Semi.

You should tell them also remember all American girl. I always tell the story because Kelly, Kelly and also Chris Dubois there, there, those two guys I know would, would write with me. I had nothing going on at all. And that, that's a huge thing that you can't, you know, overlook, but, um,

Kelly, when it came down to record the Carrie Underwood album, we had that song on there, but it was an outside song. I never met her. I'd only seen her on the TV, on Idol. I was so hyped to have that on there, but I remember they were going through pairing her up with Hit Riders for the next record. I didn't make the cut because that's the only song I had out. And Kelly was like, hey, if you bring him in here. I remember you just stood up for me so much, almost all the way to the point where you said, we'll get a number one if you bring him in here. Yeah, it was Chris Oglesby. Chris Oglesby. Yeah. And I was like, hold on. Right?

Right? And he called me, and he's trying to line up writers. Went through all the hit guys. Yeah, he said, hey, who do you want to write with? You know, get one day with Kerry. And I said, Ashley Gourley. He goes, okay, great. He goes, who else? You know, who else would it be? You know, and I said, anybody. You know, Brett James, whoever, Hillary, all of them. I said, whoever's, I'll write with anybody. But if you want a guaranteed number one, it needs to be Ashley Gourley. I said it three times. And he put us in there. Pretty wild. We wrote that, and that was the second song of the day we wrote. We had one day, but that was the second song we wrote that day.

You did the same thing. You left and we did it. And I'm like, oh, no, but I just knew it. I said, that's it. I'm saying that would not have happened. I don't know anybody else that would have been, that would have insisted. They'd been like, they just take the day. Do you still feel that way after you write a song? Do you still, do you, do you go back and listen to it and go, that's a good one? Or do you just, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

Yeah, I mean, not that you always know if it's going to be huge or not. He's got great radar for that. But yeah, a lot of times I can definitely be like, that sucks. I can definitely do that part. But yeah, when I think, now you never know. All kinds of things have to happen, but I can definitely get there in my brain and be like, if this comes out and people hear this, I think it'll be big. You ever sense that difference? Big if so. Because you've spent time on the road a lot. I remember seeing you out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. TR was opening for us. I remember seeing how they were TR rating. So-

I know that for us, like knowing when a song might connect with the fans. Yes. I love going out and seeing the show versus what they, what the label might think will connect with the fans. It's such a different thing. Yeah. There can, there can be two different things. And that's, I always love that. I see you out there. I'm like, okay,

Oh, I'm out there and I walk all the way to the top and I walk all, I can't stand still or whatever. Anyway. So I go from the soundboard to the back, to the top of the grass, all that stuff. And just kind of, you have to think about it like that because sometimes they have one thing in their head or they just think radio or they just think whatever it is, streaming or the show. But if you can get the trifecta, I'm always thinking like, all right, if this was in the set,

Would it go off or would everybody go get a beer? When I'm out there, I love going out there and just checking it out and also seeing you guys and TRs watching and be like, gosh, this guy has a set full of hits. The whole learning experience is awesome out there. But if you see that, I love that about you. I remember telling Kurt when you were out there, I'm like, that's where the hits come from. If you tap into what's going on and the 18,000 people, they walk out to the lawn like you just said.

You can see what's connecting and why versus someone at a label saying, well, I don't think that's a hit. Well, it is if you put it out. Right, right. It is if you put it out, you know, because that's a great tool to have in your bag, though, able to know what the listener...

or what we think yeah what they would react to give people a little bit because it's an interesting thing you know being in town there's a there's a certain way to write but when you're out on the road it's a whole different kind of yeah environment give people a little insight to what that might be like if you're out on the road riding with tr oh man it's just a little camp that's still my favorite way to do it if i have my way i'd take two or three days a week do that not write the other days just any kind of concentrated binging you know whether we and we do that we've had a lot of

I mean, I would say over half the days I've had have come from some type of situation like that, where it's at least two days camped up and all of a sudden you strike gold, you know, more than just kind of doing a quick drive by three hours and I got to go. I'm not as good at that. I like to kind of, you know, live in it there a little bit. But yeah, on the road, so it's just like a little...

rolling studio party. You know what I mean? I feel like we're all having a big slumber party and everybody's getting to know each other and you're up at night. And man, when you listen back to a demo on a bus at two in the morning, there's nothing. That's where you can overhype it a little bit. This is the best thing ever. In the next morning, you're like, that is pretty average, but we'll do it again. But sometimes you hit that magic and it's just fun to be like, Oh my gosh, I wish you could play that tonight, you know, in the set. Um,

It's just fun because you're with everybody and it's a really close, you know, it's a tight space. So like you just end up getting along or not, whatever comes from it. But I love...

I love that aspect of like being where it's happening, knowing that y'all are doing a sound check in there and we're trying to get something worthy of putting in that show for all these people. That's what went wrong. Cause I hate the road so much. I don't go out anymore like at all, but, but in that moment it was just a fun, I didn't do a ton like you guys or whatever, you know, but it would, and for writers that don't go a lot of, so it was like, Oh, this is awesome. They got catering and they got what, you know, just for a little two or three day run. It's fun. If I was doing it every weekend, I'm sure I'd fizzle out, but.

so would you wake up get your coffee start writing would you write after the artist show or what yeah it depends on who it is but tr you know he's a songwriter at heart so he would yeah he would be knocking on the door 9 30 y'all ready yeah and he would write until he played he would go do meet and greet he would come back on the bus and try to i thought this riff this riff while i was taking pictures with people and then he would come back in after the show there's been a few a few times that's happened where the guys just that's just where they like to write some people are like

Dierks, I remember being like, I don't want to write out here. This is my time to tour, play the songs. He wants to do it in town. So it depends on the artist. But guys like TR and a few others are just like, they want to be family when they get home. They want to kind of separate it. So they want people to come out there and write.

Super fun, especially with Thomas Rhett. I mean, we probably wrote 15, 20 things out there that he's recorded. And Jesse Frazier and I got to open and be DJs for him for like an eight-week run, which was my favorite. That was the peak of my career. That was what I wanted to be since I was like 13. What was your role as a DJ on the road? Oh, dude, me and him had two turntables. I know what Jesse's was. Doing that. We just mixed back and forth. No kidding. Oh, it was insane. I did that from like 12 years old on. I would DJ all the dances and parties and stuff.

And basically my first songwriting was making remixes of like, I'd find like an acapella and put different music to it or something.

which is kind of writing. Loved hip-hop, R&B, pop, and country. I loved all of it, but I would definitely sit there and mess around and match up tempos. Now you type in the tempo. Back then, you had to kind of hear it and blend it in. He has no limits. No, no, no. I have limits. That was the full circle moment for me where I started, I want to do that, and I'm writing country songs. When we could do both, we played 90s hip-hop and R&B, 2000s jams to open right for TR just to get the crowd pumped up for 20 minutes. It was live, so it wasn't like

you just click your phone and act like you're doing it i would definitely mess up jesse wouldn't but i would it'd be stuck on us you're like yeah yeah yeah yeah 20 20 000 people like what's happening i'm like i got it where's the button so i'm not him but we still he i mean he texted today about trying to do that again for some people because it's so fun it just makes you appreciate music so much to sit there and listen to the whole song and kind of pick it apart and blend it with something else it's just fun you know it's just creating which is really fun

But yet, like, coming here to town and Belmont and stuff, I mean, you'd think he's, and melodically, he's great with melody, and you'd think he's an amazing musician and stuff, but didn't you just learn how to play keys, like, at Belmont, like, while you were there? Yeah, I could kind of play, I would say, again, I was more like making, it's funny, because I started out just making beats, tracks, samples, playing keyboard, then I remember, uh,

I forgot a writing deal. I literally put all that stuff up and now I can't hardly turn a computer on, you know, because I was just like, I'm a melody and lyric. I'm a top liner. Those other guys are so great at producing and making music. You guys, people like that. I'm like, that's too...

it's too like scientific for me you know what i mean i get lost in those details so i did terrible i tried to take piano in college so i could learn to read music it was the worst grade i got was that and audio engineering and i have a studio and play keys now so um but those were definitely the worst two grades i think i had to drop piano so i didn't fail it he's like everything you're doing is wrong and i said i said you're too late yeah because i'm like my fingers are like this you know um when i'm when i'm trying to do it and i grew up playing more like baby face piano not like you know honky tonk piano but um

Yeah, all that stuff worked out. I learned to play guitar. I remember at a party one time, somebody showed me like four chords and it just made sense to me for whatever weird reason. Piano, I at least tried a little harder at or tried to learn to play that when I was in high school. But yeah, not a great instrumentalist, just more can hear the melody and can do some

do some weird chords. Cause you write everything on piano now, right? And you have like most of it. 85% of the time I'll write, not touching an instrument if I can help it. Cause I like just the freedom of trying to come up with it. It's not guitar. It's, it's, it's, it totally depends. It's been both. Yeah. Early on. He would grab a guitar, like out of my hands. I've never seen a guitar in his hand. No, he would say, say, Hey, let me see your guitar for a second. He goes, he goes, I've kind of been tinkering around with this. I kind of learned it two or three months ago and he starts playing this melody and everything. And he's tinkering around. I said,

i sound 10 times better than what i was playing you know but he wasn't a great player at the time with his melodies yeah i can't rip a solo or anything but yeah i can mess around on amazing on either one but i would gravitate if i'm playing riders around i'm more comfortable on a piano for sure and it stays in tune a guitar never sounds in tune to me if i'm playing it ever even if it is i'm like this is out of tune so i usually opt for the keyboard but i've done both yeah

You were talking about knowing when, or having a good sense of when you think you've written a hit.

This always interests me because Neil has said this about a song that he didn't think was a hit. Like Night Train, he wrote Night Train, which is an incredible song, but when he wrote it, he was like, eh, that ain't it. Right. And it ended up becoming a big hit and a ranch, which you saw no money for. And a ranch. Is there one of those that you thought,

I just don't see that that actually ended up getting its own life. Yeah, sometimes, you know, like, and probably because Night Train isn't just like radio candy. It's got a lot of depth stuff to it. Sometimes I'm sure it's just like, well, this is not just radio. I'm not sure about this. And Jason puts out whatever he wants, as we all know. So, and that's it every time. But yeah, I think my true, if I boil down my,

God-given gift, it would be more of an A&R. You know, like knowing if the thing is what somebody should do or guessing some step they could take or anything like that. So I've had a few where I was like, oh, I'll probably push that too far. You know, like songs like That's My Kind of Night or T-Shirt for Thomas Riddell. I was like, we went crazy on this song. No way. This is too much. But then even Thomas at the time when that song, he asked to hold it. He's like, I don't think they're ready for it, but let's wait a couple years, see what happens. And then he put it out and it was a hit. Oh, really? He had a great, great art. Yeah, he was like, can I hold this? I know he hadn't had much stuff and

You know, everybody loves him. We're like, well, sure. If you're going to actually do this, go for it. You know, that song and then songs like, you know, cowgirls for some of the Morgan stuff, we're just taking shots, you know, in the dark and who knows with last night. And again, cowgirls, some of those things with a lot of rap flows and different kind of different kind of vibes stripped down to no instruments, but acoustic guitar and a drum beat or whatever. So some of those it's, it's like, okay, now that, that one I really felt strong about, but definitely sometimes I was like, this could be too far, you know?

So more of that than like thinking there's no way something will be a hit and then it kind of comes out of nowhere. The other way has happened where I'm like, this is going to be huge and then moving on to the next record. That's how it is. Right. But usually I can kind of, once I hear the final thing, once I hear the actual cut of it, which nowadays is like whenever it comes out on Spotify, you know, you don't get to go hear the cuts anymore like you used to. Yeah, right. So when it comes out, I sit there with my ear pods in at 11 o'clock

11 p.m. in the bed and try to do my best judging for it you know but uh but yeah I usually have a pretty good sense about that are you pretty much are you pretty much on all the time as far as songwriting goes no not anymore that's a uh I think people think that all the time I can turn it off pretty easy now yeah I can completely shut it down go into fam mode I don't write much in the summer I don't write as much as people think at least the last few years

But when I was grinding, I was grinding. I like to turn it on and turn it off. But if it's on, it's on. See, that's the thing. That's the difference in some songwriters. It's like when I would grind, it was like it was just the success or the cut ratio would just go...

But when I would pick and choose where I wanted to write. You'd snipe it a little better? Yeah. It was weird. If I tried to grind, it wouldn't work. And I always pictured you as like a grinder. Oh, yeah. And it's always like if we're doing a camp, I'm telling you, almost every song like we do, I camp with Hardy at my house where I go fish for a minute and do whatever. Hunter's making shrimp on the back of a truck bed. It's the country-est scene ever. It's on a river. It's awesome where my studio is. And it's always like the 10 p.m. song.

is the one that goes, you know what I mean? We're starting at 10 AM. We might even write two songs that are good or may even be get cut, but they're not. The one just kind of happens when nobody's calling anybody. Um,

And you're just in the zone and you're only doing it because you're loving it. You're not getting paid to be there at 10 PM, you know, necessarily. So there's something about that environment. Same thing of being on the road and just kind of writing one at midnight. It's like, why, why are we even doing this? You know, it's free overtime, you know, but, but yeah, that scenario I love. So I do like to go two or three days in a row. I'm usually not satisfied with that first. If it's three 30, I'm like, all

all right, now let's do one in 30 minutes. I'll always do the Hail Mary at the end of most sessions if I got time. And it's interesting because when, you know, I was thinking of the time, so we've done that too. The ones that happen later at night, you're not overthinking as much either. And it just, they just happen because you're having fun and you're just living in that moment. Yeah, you're tuned in, you're like warmed up, you know, like. I love that. I love getting out of town. Yeah. Even, I mean, on the road is different for us because it's harder to,

for us a little bit to write in the road because you know sound check seems you know comes on quick you know then you then you got stuff to do when you play a show and for me personally though when we do go out of town and do something like a writing camp yeah retreat retreat

That's my favorite thing. Absolutely. I think it's most people. Because you can concentrate on one and you can, you can really dive into it and get away from it and come back to it. And I used to 10 o'clock at night and bang one out and next morning it sounds pretty good. Yeah. That always feels great to me. I mean, I've had them both ways, but that one, that,

That concept is real, I think. You feel like you're making a record or you just feel more creative. Again, if you're gone, then you don't have to coach at 3 o'clock and leave or whatever. I always hate that feeling of having to cut it off. It's fun to do at least a couple days in a row. If you're not home, then you're not going home, so you're just going until you get tired. Unless Staley Murphy's there. Then you are going all night. Yeah, you're going all night and the next morning can be rough. I heard he's calmed down a little bit.

I doubt it. I mean, it was such a high bar. I think a calm down DLM is still pretty... Yeah, it's there. I do write fast, but that doesn't mean the song's done fast. I just like to spit it out in like 10 minutes and get a vision for what the end is just so we don't spend eight hours working on it. Hang on a second. Down, spit it out. That's kind of like what a co-write is.

With him because he would spit stuff out and you're just typing it down. You can't understand everything.

and then he said what to say there what to say there and i said i don't know and he goes i said but it was great and i said what was it he goes he goes i don't know it's gone it's gone it kind of comes to me in a quick way like that now i just learned to write fast because i had to be at some gym at 245 coach basketball for like five years in a row um so i definitely learned how to write quick from necessity but yeah it doesn't matter it may take 15 hours to finish you know three days to finish it but that one the the main core of it i feel like it's fun to let that kind of fly out and see see if it sticks or not you know

I got to tell you, it's like after doing it as long as we've been doing it, as long as I've been doing it, because it's been almost 35 years, and then you keep having all this success, and you're like, you probably don't know it, but it's an inspiration for a lot of us older guys to like, wait a minute. It's almost like, you know what I'm saying? You don't get pissed, but you're like,

shit, I gotta get back to work. I gotta get back to work. I'm not done yet. Thinking I'm done. I'm going to play more golf. I'm going to hunt more or whatever. I'm like, well, no, God, no, I need to get back on it. Well, one, one huge difference that he's always had that's different from at least I'll say you and I, okay, is we could write something that actually ended up being a hit and,

And I knew looking at it and listening to it, and it's something that actually Dallas Davis and I had written instead of like running out of moonlight for Hauser. As soon as you get done, I'm thinking, that's done. That's a hit. I mean, that's it. I'll get it if he likes it and they put it out. It's a hit.

And I'm like, I'm starting to pack up. I want to go hit some golf balls or something. And Ashley's like, let's go, let's go, let's go. I've got two hours, two hours, two hours, two hours. No, that work ethic is amazing. You want to write another one? I don't want to write one at all. And that would be me now. But yeah, yeah, yeah. What about this? I start rolling it out. I open up my computer and then, oh, shit.

yeah we just got warmed up you know so i figured you would i figured you wouldn't be slowing down till you hit 100 if you get to 84 100 has got to be the number no no no there's no number there's not uh-uh really i think you're lying i'm not lying well it's funny when people ask because they're like dude you have 100 next week i'm like well that's 20 more number that's a lot of songs that's not happening i'm not aiming for that and be like all right i'm done at 100 anything like that um

that's just tricky stuff because i think you're lying i think you're lying whoever bought his last catalog wants to be 100. i'd say it's uh no no no i would i feel like if i was let to get out of it i would i would do it you know i mean for sure and there's no there's no more goals um and being a somebody didn't know anything about being a songwriter or publishing it's not like i even had those goals not like i wanted to triple play i didn't know that existed you know or any of that stuff so it's almost fun now looking back just being like

I mean, most things you have all these exact goals, you know, whether it's financial or sports thing or whatever. But when you're just, I mean, my goal was to not have to get a real job. You know, there's still no better feeling than writing songwriter on your taxes. You know what I mean? It's your job. To me, I still haven't got that. That was the best feeling. So the rest, you know, is gravy as far as different. You've made the ASCAP awards very unexciting. I'm sorry about that.

That's my bad. I think you literally shut the ass cap and worked it out. It's like not even a show anymore. No, I'm just kind of hanging out here drinking. All right, here, come get this. My name is Glenn Story. I'm the founder and CEO of Patriot Mobile. And then we have four principals.

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You know what goes great with small town stories? Original Glory, America's beer right here. You know, I've been drinking this every songwriting session today. Man, that clean, crisp taste reminds me of summer nights on the back porch after a fresh mowed lawn. And they're just not making great beer. They're investing in America's small towns. Well, it's just like us. They believe in bringing communities together.

Not only do they invest in communities, but a portion of each sale goes to the veterans and the first responders and all the heroes that protect us. For a limited time, you can become a member of the OG fam and invest in this beer at wefunder.com forward slash original brands. Join our original glory family and help ignite that original glory spirit. It's a great lesson out there, though, like the work ethic, which is...

the biggest inspiration, which I think is the key to everything. But when you work hard through the years, like you've done, you know, you gain the trust of the young artists you're writing with that are established artists, gaining that trust, you're gaining the trust at radio or a girl, a girl is tapped in. Like, and that's, that's, I mean, it feels that way. Like that trust that you have is like,

Label knows it. Oh, yeah. I love it. This is radio candy. This is going to... And that's what artists need. Stuff that's going to go up the chart. It's great. Yeah, for sure. My whole career has been like these little phases of where I just kind of lock in. And for whatever reason, I'm speaking an artist's language, whether I'm writing them with them or for them or whatever. Kind of a combo of those usually. But...

It's funny. It doesn't ever last like 10 years or anything, but there'll be like a little period of time there where I just feel like I'm good at educated guessing what they should kind of do, something they could do next that I think would go off. And I do try to give them like, I'm going in. Like if I'm going in, I'm going all in and really thinking if I'm that person, would I do this? Would I actually put this out? Would I sing this? Would I get tired of singing it? I try to kind of be in their role a little bit, which I think helps instead of just trying to get one done and call it a day.

Well, and have there been times, like, and you and I have talked a little bit about this, but I'm asking for everybody else, like, that you've been in a certain camp, and whether it's their first record, second, or whatever, and have two or three number ones, all kinds of cuts and everything like that, and you say, I'm freaking in. I'm in. They're certainly going to call me back next time, but they don't. Every single time. Isn't that weird? It's never not happened. Like, you would think he's getting the call, he's getting the text for every camp, everybody's coming up, even with people he's had multiple hits with. Oh, yeah.

And that's the hard part. You know, I always say when I, you know, kind of wind down or quit or retire or whatever it is, it won't be because I'm burnt out on just songs. You know, it's just like the – that's hard. It's hard to do that. You know, the people, the other stuff that comes along with it is tough sometimes. You know, it's an emotional thing to be like, man, I thought we had a thing. But everybody's after the next thing. You know, so don't blame us. You know, it's not like a bad thing I guess they're doing, but definitely I'll hit a little –

good period of time not really make a mistake you know what i mean but it's just like all right i thought we won the super bowl but i guess you want a new coach you know like that just happens it's just a natural thing i think that's just what they can change is who they're getting with there's so many awesome new young writers i don't blame them you know so um it makes sense but it does every now and then i'm like oh shoot that stung a little bit you know yeah i can't help but feel that way and you wonder sometimes too like like if it's a if it's a newer artist or even older artists or whatever you

is if you don't get that call, maybe it's because they're like, all right, we've already done this and we've had hits with him, but I want to show everybody that we, I can do it. We can do it. That's not a, that's not a gory song. That's our song. It's been that way. That's definitely happened where it's like, Oh, I know what I'm doing. I don't need any more gory songs or this guy's songs or whatever. So sometimes that that's, I don't think that's normal. I mean, it's definitely happened. That's not usual, but sometimes it just kind of, it just kind of happens. You know what I mean? You go in different directions or whatever, or like, Hey, I've done that. He did that.

And even though I think I could do the next phase too, they're just like, let's turn and do whatever. How many cuts have you had outside the country genre? You know? I mean, not as many as in country. I know. Several, yeah. I mean, I thought about being like moving to LA and doing pop stuff for a while. Because you take trips to LA and write. Yeah, used to more. Now everybody's in Nashville now, so you don't have to go anywhere. But no, definitely. I mean, I worked with...

I mean, even the last couple of weeks with a couple of pop artists, cause it's fun. Yeah. And, um, even some rappers, some, I like being all over the map. We had a Weezer best rock song, Grammy nomination. Yeah. Alternative chart. Um,

which is one of those Hail Mary days where I'm like, all right, we got 15 minutes. Let's yell out something crazy. And then that turned into that and got to do some Bon Jovi stuff, Charlie Puth, you know, Jason Derulo, different, different people. There's been, especially with the Morgan stuff, there's like a few rappers, Moneybagg Yo, we have a song with and things like that. And I love that stuff. So I would love to do that. I'm not chasing after that necessarily because I mean, Nashville is so great and country is definitely the spot for a songwriter. I will say it seems like,

the place where you can still magically get a song recorded because somebody loves it. They don't know who you are. They don't care. They love it. We're cutting it tomorrow. That kind of thing. It's hard to find anywhere else. You know, it used to be, if you are an Asheville songwriter, uh,

They, you know, LA or New York wouldn't look at your songs. No, now they want them. They're asking for them. You're right. But talk about a little bit the process because writing a country song is different than writing a song. It is, yeah, for sure. So what's the mindset that you go into or how do you approach that? Yeah, it's just a different part of my brain. Depends on who the artist is. Yeah, it depends on what it is. You know what I mean? I'll shut off part of my brain and turn on another little part. Try to usually be, it's probably more...

more melodic and production-based. The lyrics, I think, in some pop songs are amazing, even better than some country songs. Oh, heck yeah. I don't ascribe to like... I feel like people used to think, oh, pop, they just yell out whatever words, so that's easy. I'm like, man, it's pretty hard to figure out words that go flawlessly with that melody and all that kind of stuff. So I've been on both sides of it. I think they're both impossible. But definitely now, most of those calls where somebody's making a country album are like, oh, we'd like... They love the...

you know, the Nashville way, I guess, which is really pouring it all into the song and the lyric. They really, they really love the lyric to be, have a little bit of a turn or something, you know, something that pays off there somewhere. So now, now it's all blurred together, which I love, you know, it looks like my playlist, you know, as far as like what I would just listen to, it's all mashed together, which I love, you know?

Um, so now I'm not, I'm not trying, I'm not chasing after that stuff very much on the pop things. If somebody comes through town that, that, that I think is awesome and I could tap into their artistry a little bit, then that's really fun, you know, but it doesn't matter which honor they are now. It's just, if it's, if I think I can bring something to the table, I'll do it. And if not, then I won't kind of, you know, I'm there, which is really fun to not feel like I have to chase this thing. I want to song on this thing. It's more like, yes, I want to spend time with those people that day and let's try that, you know?

And we have a whole team of writers that are so, I mean, they're, that's, who's going to, you know, they're, I want all of them to beat me at writer of the year and everything that the tape room crew, they're, they're doing so well now that it's, I'm pitching their songs more than mine and they're not needing me in the rooms, which I love, you know? So it's all, I had him pegged as the hardest working guy in the world. No, my guys are working harder than me. They're working harder than I am. They're going hard. You mentioned the triple play awards, which, you know, for people who don't know, it's like having three number ones and a,

12-month or 15-month period, right? And I remember seeing the picture because April 29th when you had that. And I think half the guys getting that were – one was Ashley and half of them were Ashley's writers. Yeah, that was like my favorite accomplishment. They just sent me the thing because I don't look at the internet or anything at all really or social media or anything like that. So somebody has to send me something if we have it come out. So one of our staff sent it and it said something about that, I think six of us.

got triple plays or maybe one of them had their first number one they got recognized for and i know five of us got triple plays so that that to me is better than like oh i got this hit or i had this many number ones in a year knowing that the that the crew is kind of you know jumping in there and going after it is really really fun yeah and i know you get a lot of writers now but i mean i know when you started and you had three or four or five like like all of his writers were on the radio like like everyone about one writer that didn't have didn't have a single which you couldn't find a publisher where that would be true right

It's amazing. Are you still driving that same Toyota? No. Because I would see him. Yeah, the Sequoia. I would see him and it's like, you know, I mean, he's like,

He's had multiple number ones by this time. He can completely afford anything he wanted. That was a good kid mobile, yeah. And he still drove, he drove that Sequoia forever. A lot of miles, yeah. Not as long as Casey Beathard drove his truck. I got the X7. I thought that was so cool that you just stuck with it. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I've never been a big car guy. I spent all my money on trips. We're a big travel crew, so we made a bucket list and tried to,

tried to see the world with the fam so that was the main thing so give us one of those where have you gone oh man I mean all over that that's my favorite thing I mean you know music can do a lot of things but it providing for us to go do that me and my wife have always said like hey if any of these ever work

we're going to not, you know, like save money, but we're also going to use it on experiences and travel. So, I mean, we've taken them to Iceland, Switzerland, Israel, Norway, South Africa, like all that stuff. You know, if it wasn't for COVID, we would have got through the list, but we still got two or three more left on there, but we tried to do it while they were young and tried to really travel, you know, Australia and the further away and feel like, all right, as time is, it gets harder and harder to get them all together. We'll do more us stuff, but we kind of went all around the world. It was nuts.

At least a couple times a year we do crazy trips. But also not just family or personal trips. He's done more mission trips with his kids, his whole family. I mean, since I've known him. Like even when he was hitting it so hard, he said, I can't. I'm going to be gone three weeks. We're going –

some yeah we would still travel yeah yeah just some tribe in africa somewhere we wanted to witness to jesus yeah india yeah we've done a bunch of those so the kids have you know i don't know how much i can offer them but at least like they know there's a big world out there you know so when they figure out what they want to do they they have it all up there in the memory bank a little bit you know and i just love being new places seeing seeing things i'll never see again i just love that that to me is like the ultimate rush more than like things or whatever you know so

very thankful for that they are too they still bring it up everything is connected to some trip remember when we were here and did this or whatever so it's fun we're still doing it but it's really fun for kids especially to

widen out their thoughts and know what's out there. And, you know, it's, it's, that's a great gift to give them. It was different. Like I, you know, go to church when you're a kid is different than to go to Israel and, and walk around with like, we got to take my, my youngest got baptized in the Jordan river, you know, but Chris Tomlin, Darren Whitehead, that's our pastor. And that's like insane, you know, just to like actually see it. It brings all that stuff to life, which is a huge component of faith. I think it takes all the, any kind of fairytale stuff out of it when you're actually walking around with the right guides, like we were, um,

A lot of trips like that. I mean, that one was obviously the biggest one and most important, but we've done...

We've jumped off sides of mountains. We've done some stuff that right now I would never do it again. I feel like God was like, you got to do this now because once your brain fully develops around 40, you'll never hang off the edge of a waterfall again like an idiot. But we have that picture, that kind of thing. It's funny. I always think about that looking back. It's like, I would never do that again. But the kids are fearless because of it. I'm not. I'm scared to death, but they do anything. The mortality starts to kick in. It starts to kick in a little bit, yeah. It's like, all right, I don't know about that. I don't want to jump out of the airplane. Yeah.

Oh, Paraglide and Waterfall Repel. We've done all that stuff. I mean, they ate it up. It's fun. And now they're, you know, I got one that's going to be a singer in high school next year. It's almost impossible to get them all together. You know, we have a little time at Christmas and over the summer, my daughter's leaving for New York and my other son's in Wyoming and the other one's playing travel baseball, which might as well just be a full-time job, you know? So it's...

It's tough. It's tough to get them all, you know, just in one room to hang out somewhere. So when they get married trips. Yeah. That's what we're doing. Oh my goodness. I can't imagine. Oh yeah. That's wild. It's coming though. It's coming fast. It's different. It's a, I mean, little kids are tough. Um, we had kids really, really young. Um,

And not that that was easy, but there's something about when they become adults, you're like, oh, wow, I'm really worried about, you know, this is a human with real emotions and trying to conquer the world or whatever they're doing. So that's been tough the last few years. It takes up a lot of brain space just to think, like, man, have I done, have I set them up? Like, were they experienced enough? Do they know what they're doing? All that stuff. So thankfully, we're all tight. It's really fun. I value all my time with them, and we'll definitely prioritize that over a session anytime. Yeah.

There you go. But it's scary when they start to head out on their own. Oh, yeah. With big dreams and you want to see them succeed. I worry more about that. Just praying that he gets to, or they both get to have their dreams come true. They're all so different. It's out of your control. I mean, that's what's so about being a writer. I always talk about that. It's like control. I know that's the thing. I love to, a little bit of a control freak. I'm making that. If we're doing a trip, I'm the one setting everything up.

a song you pour your heart into it and then you go like okay here you go you just drop the you know baby up on the porch so hope somebody feeds it you know

um and that's always been the hardest part for me to be like i know what this should sound like i know when this should come out all that stuff but that's always been tough as a writer or a parent to do that to kind of leave that up to to fate the end part you know that's one of the hardest things i don't think people really get that as a songwriter you pour your heart into creating something but then your job is finished and you don't have any control that's the hard what happens after the song is written especially in nashville it's like

Other genres, you're like in there. They're like, hey, I was in there. They're doing the vocal. I'm coaching them, doing whatever. I'm like, I don't even get to hear. I'll hear it when it comes out kind of thing. That is really tough.

for me, which I'm used to it now, but man, that was for a while. I was like, Oh, let me in there. Let me coach that or maybe play this or do that. I loved making demos that whole process back when we were doing full band demos all the time, or even with track, just having, having that be a hands-on process, but it is tough to do that, you know, as, and it's just for, we're the only people that have to completely drop it off and let it go.

um but i've always done that i'm never gonna call i'm the last one to call and be like man this song's awesome didn't you this is a career changer i'm really bad at hyping stuff up you know i'm not gonna call a label or the artist and be like hey did you remember our song i'm like they remember it they don't like it dude you know because i'll have writers be like dude you should you should hype up so and so on this i'm like i've never had that work one time yeah i remember calling me hey remember remember this it's still really good they're like yeah i remember that

all right see you you know yeah it's usually the process so I I have gotten pretty good at being like this is it a defining success as whatever you leave the room with that's it that's why I want to pour everything I got into it because that's kind of all you get to do it's hard to go back and tinker with it and you don't get to take it across the line you got to just call the play and hope it you know hope it works um so I've tried to even talk to our writers mental health wise with like all right if you give you've done all you can you know and that's it you did it now will anybody else realize you did it who

Who knows? We'll see. But you did what you could do, you know, that day with the time you were given. So that's a great job. And you just got to be like, that's it. I crushed it, you know, and roll on. When you mentioned mental health, and that's a big thing for you. And then you've got that Jelly Roll song, I'm Not Okay. Oh, yeah. Can you talk about all that a little bit? That's a really cool story. Yeah, man. I feel like everybody struggles with it, but I definitely do. And we've been to –

I've done whatever they are, you know, onsite retreats and intensives and things like that. Even with like my son or with different, you know, different people, it's an open thing, you know, in the family, like, Hey, we're to talk through things or if you need to talk to somebody, go do it. But yeah, that song in particular just,

was birthed out of the way I feel and the way I feel like a lot of people, you know, feel. And then jelly, just thankfully he records weird songs. You know, there aren't, they're not about picking a girl up and going, having a beer on the river. You know, he's like attacking real things. So we've got a song about the devil being a liar and other songs about not want to get out of bed in the morning. So, and their hits, it's so weird, you know, that he can pull that off.

Um, but thankfully he can, cause that's assumed that that became like a top 10 pop hit. Somehow it's like a serious ballot. I did not expect any of that. That might be the unexpected one. I did not think that would be on the pop charts. I'm not okay. Or a single at all. Um, let alone the first one. So, um, but yeah, that was, that one was special. And I really feel like God, uh, kind of just gave us that idea. It just kind of poured out, um,

you know, and I was on the bus, uh, went out to ride with him for like a day or two. That's one of the few bus runs I've done. Um, just because I was really intrigued about to see a show again, we're talking about the show earlier, go see a show, the crowd. It was like church out there. It was wild. I've never seen the fans. It was an incredible, uh,

experience to watch and then that song was just kind of birthed out of like okay he's the only person I can think of that would do this and actually write a whole song about it you know so it's just trying to be honest I mean there's no cure at the end of that song or anything like that or even a suggestion or it doesn't even end well or anything it just says hey we're not okay but we're going to be alright it's kind of a weird thing to say but I think it makes sense you know like one day I mean it's talking about heaven and the other life we got coming but even still it's not like that solves what we're thinking about here

While we're still here on earth. So I definitely struggle with sleeping thoughts. I'm definitely not thinking about charts or songs or anything. I'm thinking about, you know, happy things like death or like, you know, what happens. And I don't know about that. There's, I mean, I really do. I think about that stuff every day and every night and just making sure just how short time is really, really bothers me. So just making sure I'm making the most of that.

and just trying to think through and pray through what my purposes are. Is it still in the writing room? Is it both? Do I need to do whatever? I mean, I'm willing to do whatever I need to do. There's a lot of people out there that let, especially later in life, let their last chapter really get to them and really bring them down. And they have two ways to go. They can pray about it and pray their way out of it,

pray through it or they can just waller in it and yeah and and I've seen both sides of that oh yeah I mean I want to end well not like obsessed with like having some great final that's what it is people get obsessed with it they get obsessed with it with the last chapter well I don't want it to be over the thing is you know in those phases of life I love the grinding warrior phase better than like the king or whatever they call it phase of the end where you're more like doing whatever but thankfully I built that stuff in you know with tape room with

With the writers, being able to coach and mentor while I'm still writing some has been a lifesaver for me. I need that. That's not like a side gig to try to make some extra money. That's just doing what I feel like I'm meant to do. So that's been really fun to get to coach and mentor and run that even while I'm still doing writing sessions. So I've kind of got to pre-transition a little bit. And so I feel like I'm ready whenever it runs out.

I'm ready. Not saying I'll be good with it, but I'm ready for that whenever it comes and ready for whatever God's got on the other side of it. Hey, man. God makes it very clear, at least to me, where those chapters of your life are and where they appear and where a new one starts. Yeah, this is a new one right now for me. I mean, music stuff's going great, but with the kids leaving and all that stuff, definitely, I think that's where I get fixated on that. I'm like, all right, what?

I wonder what's going to happen now. You know, it was a little easier back in the day when it's like, all right, everybody's in school, got to get their homework done, trying to write some hits, trying to meet some new cool people, and you roll on, doing a bus run, whatever it is. But it's different now. It's different when you don't have to do it anymore, just choosing what to do with your time and all that stuff. I can get mixed up in that a little bit. I was just telling Kurt, you know, my son's getting ready to head off to college, and I'm like, how's that going to work? He's going to California. Like, it's not like he's going a couple hours away. So, you know, again, my point is very defined education.

New chapter coming. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's coming for sure, yeah. It's like no doubt where the new one starts. It's got to be hard because as a parent, one of your roles is to help shape your child's life and give them...

the right tools but at some point you have to set them free and that's you know i'm not there yet but you're there and it sounds like you're that that's just got to be a scary hard thing yeah okay you've got to go experience it for yourself you've got to go learn for yourself you gotta let them fail a little bit which is always tough right yeah yeah which is which is a crucial thing though yeah i mean for the character at least at least i think that way where you know the bumps along the road make

You like to think and make them stronger. But again, very defining time. God will let you know. You won't be wondering. Is this a new chapter? I have the mental thing where I just don't like stuff to be over. Whether it's a good night, I'll stay up all night long because I just want the night to be over. Having a good time or you don't want the song or the run or the...

you know whether it's a chart run or it's a baseball game where it's just a phase where they're little before it gets too serious about sports just all that stuff i just love to sit in and i never want it to be over you know last day of a trip or last whatever it is you know a session or a uh any kind of memory so i always try to milk those as much as we can then you got to move on you know yeah hey i want to talk about this and make sure we get to this because it's important you know uh when people talk about the music business they

Music is part of it, but the business is obviously the other part of it. And you've been really active in trying to make sure in this new age of streaming that the songwriters especially get taken care of. Can you talk about the Music Modernization Act and your role? Oh, man, I can't take a role in any of that. I've been in D.C. a couple times and all that. That stuff is so tricky because it's a...

It's a tough, you know, it's an uphill battle, you know, and there's something new all the time that's coming out. So I haven't affected as much change as I'd like to. I mean, I always go to the NMPA conferences or learn what's going on so I can tell that to my writers and however we can do it. We've tried to do a few new things, but really just having a good grip on it and making sure that we're all getting taken care of, whether that's helping a writer sell their catalog at the right time, if that's a thing, or whatever we can do to squeeze the most juice out of these, you know,

we got sitting around, you know, as far as songs go, I definitely have a heart for that and for writers to, to be taken care of however they can. I don't have the solutions, you know, it's really tricky. And a lot of times it's, it's going after people that are way bigger, bigger and have a lot more lobbyists and money than, than we all do. But, but I feel like it's getting a little bit, you know, it's a little better and stuff on the stream and it's accounting for a lot, but it's still not, you know, it's not what radio is. And it's a,

It's a tough uphill climb. I don't have the answers. I'm down to sit around and do a think tank anytime. It seems like the scales are so tipped that how good can it get? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so lopsided. They're laws. People just have to start giving you stuff out of the goodness of their heart, which is not going to happen. That's not going to happen. All right.

Yeah, but I do like to – I do know – I mean, writers are so talented and so awesome. I definitely, even like a lot of mine, I'll help. I'll jump in and try to help them if it's time to bundle up some songs and sell them or do a deal. I like helping people with all that stuff. I've got enough of that knowledge from Belmont and kind of leaning in on that, the copyright management of all of it and being a publisher and stuff where I have a pretty good grip on that. So I love helping people, even if it's just a financial plan or whatever. I love all that stuff, being –

you know, financial peace is a big, a big deal. So sooner you can get to a point where you don't have to do it anymore. Um,

the better, at least for me, that's how I experienced it. Once I was to the point where didn't have to have these hits pay the bills, then like a whole new chapter came about, you know, and it was even, the songs did even better, you know, in the last three or four years than the ones before I thought I was done. I was like, well, that's probably it. And then there's a freedom to that, that it'd be fun to help some other people, you know, kind of experience, which is like, you're doing what you want, picking your spots. And, and you know, it's fun. I mean, growing up, we, we didn't money determined a lot, you know,

And I was determined to make that not the case. Not like we can do anything we want, but, you know. I think you need to quit helping people and get to 100. Go ahead and get to 100 and then start helping people. It's a nice even number. Put me first. That's a great thing. That's a me person. He likes the age of 41, but I don't know how...

I was asking what your count is as a publisher. Obviously, your own personal. Yeah, as a publisher, not counting me, we hit 50 last year, I think. 50 number ones, which I promise I'm more proud of that than you. I don't even know how that's even possible.

That one blew my mind. I was like, where are we at once they counted? I was like, wow. So it's 50 something now. We've got a few cents there. That's amazing. But yeah, I'm blown away. And it's inspiring. That's kind of the hack, if there is one, I think, is being inspired by the people I get around, being guys I actually want to hang out with. You still fly commercial?

Yeah. Sometimes. Ever known them? No, no, I do, I do. I do have a question. I do, I wish. Because I had a kid ask me this the other day, and I really didn't know the answer to it because he was 16 years old. And he said, he's a man. He goes, I like writing songs. I think I got some pretty good things. And he goes, what do you think I ought to do? And he lived in Chattanooga, and I was doing a benefit thing. And it kind of caught me off guard. I'm like,

That's a fantastic question. I used to, I would tell you, and I did say, I mentioned NSAI, National Songwriters Association International and things like that, and the PROs, sometimes a lot of people listen to songs, but is that true anymore? I don't know. If you were coming to town or you had somebody that was talented or thought that's what they wanted to do, since you are currently the most successful commercial songwriter of all genres of music, surpassing even Paul McCartney, what would you tell that kid to do?

Yeah. I wish I could tell them to move here in 2000 instead of a, you know, talk about it all the time. That's the difference is that I don't know. I don't know how much longer I could have. I mean, I wrote with a publisher for seven years without a hit. Um, but we paid, you know, less for our first house than people do for their driveway now, you know? So it's just a different thing. You know, the, it's tough.

on the money and hopefully, I mean, that's my role is to get in there with at least our team and help it be a little less than seven years if we can help it, but it still takes a minute, you know? So I don't know at 16, my first thing is always like, Hey, you don't, you shouldn't, I didn't know, you know, at that age. So it's not like they got to know what they want to be yet. Um, I think they find out like, Hey, how many songs are you writing a song every day? Like, no, but I have like three good ones in the last year that I finished. And I'm like, all right, let's try to write a song. I'm telling them, write a song every day and see if you get tired of that. You know what I mean? See, basically find, um, find your crew. It's seldom that somebody, um,

you know, goes on a run with like random hit songwriters. It's usually a little team of, you know, it's a lot of times it's a team of people that come up and sometimes somebody like me sneaks into your crew for a minute. You know what I mean? With, with Brad and Chris and you, um, you let somebody in, but for the most part, um, you kind of find your own, you know, find your own way up with your own crew. I don't know. Just, just that. I mean, it's more of a warning for me is like, Hey, if you want to do this, it takes a minute. You know, it's a little bit feast or famine, a lot of famine, um,

You know, so if you're willing to do that, I don't know. Just talk to them. But you'd still say, move here. Forget they're 16. Maybe they're 25, right? And they've got two kids and a wife. Leave the family and move here. Yeah. And pursue your dreams. And send money back to the family. It's funny because some people will be like, man, I want to be a singer. But, you know, like, it's been really hard. So I think I'm just going to write songs for other people. Sometimes that's a conversation which is like, okay, it can't just be, it's really hard. You know, you can't be like, well, I think I'll just write hits for other people like you are. You know, and I'm like, well, hold on.

that's really tough. Like I own, I never wanted to be an artist or singer, anything like that. And it still took a hot minute, you know, 11 years in town. Um, so it depends on their plan. It depends on the person. I mean, all you can say is just pray through it and try and see what happens. Just write stuff. I keep always tell them,

not to write B versions of what's already out there. That's usually what happens. You know, they're chasing or they're like, okay, I'm gonna write songs that sound like that. Cause those are working when it's the opposite of that. It's like, what, what can you bring to the table that we don't already have, you know, in our staff or on the radio or that artist doesn't have already, you know? So it is still happening. I mean, I have a bunch of friends that, um, there are a lot of first time triple play award winners, a lot of first time, number one getters, which I love to see. And that's really a positive thing. Cause it doesn't seem like that's happening, but it is, you know,

a lot of new people coming up, kind of taking over. So that's fun to see. So I always try to point to some of those younger, you know, guys and be like, Hey, here's the, here's somebody to watch, you know, it took them this long and they're kind of doing it. And the way they did it was offer something different than people were hearing, you know?

And who knows? I mean, everybody's different. So there's no just, but the same thing. And I say, I was taking care of people, ASCAP, BMI. I definitely had a couple people sent to me by people who worked at ASCAP, Robert Phil Harden, people like that. Send me Hunter Phelps back in the day. He's not there anymore, but there are some of those people out there that still care that want to help writers and help them land somewhere. So just getting real specific about your,

you're playing your goal and just i'm still definitely down to tell people move here do it go to everything try it out see what you think you know it's a hard game it's a failure business and you know people talk about baseball if you fail seven out of ten times you're successful right well as a songwriter it's maybe not for you but you're failing a lot most a lot yes that's what you got to kind of trial and see if you can take that or if you can stomach it right um i love it it's rough though about getting

I told somebody the other day, like find, find your crew. Yeah. Find your crew where you, where you know, when you go in, whether you get something great that day or not, you're going to feel good about what you're doing. You feel comfortable, you know, not afraid to suck. Yep. Yeah. That's a big deal. I mean, it's a, it's a shortcut world right now, you know, so everybody's trying to figure out how can I, there's somebody on the plane the other day, um,

that for some reason knew who I was and was asking about those questions. They had their Nashville trip set up and it was to, it was like five meetings with organizations. You know, I was like, I'm gonna go to the whatever I'm trying to get into CMA and the ACM, whatever they are, all the, all the things. And I was like, well, are you writing? You know? And there's like, Oh, I mean, I was doing more networking and I'm just like, I don't even know if I did that. You know what I mean? Like it's, I don't remember doing that. I didn't play. I remember spending my time dealing with rejection and getting good at it. Yeah. Yeah.

And just writing more. Yeah. Writing with new people. And I was like, hey, what I would do, go to Writers' Round, ask somebody to write after it if you hear something. You know, play them a verse course you have, see what happens. You know, like, go write more than a... I mean, sometimes people can get lucky and get a thing or two because they're in the right place at the right time. But as far as career-wise, it's definitely, you got to do the work. And it whittles them way down, the people that are willing to do the work. You talk about writing 200 songs a year for seven years and throwing them away. No doubt.

yeah that's tough you know you got that right so yeah just i do love giving people advice but it is harder now used to be like dude move nashville it's great come on now it's like all right save up some money first you know yeah and come here and see and see what happens but but but thankfully we've we've had a lot of guys have success with you know that have published deals for the first time um so that's the best i can do is try to provide them with a little bit of a

inside mentorship or whatever and be hard on their songs not i mean hunter phelps got a triple play and he he said on the at the podium everybody's being super nice to to me and tape room and thanking us and and he said he remembered when he played me songs and he said everybody else told him why they were awesome and i told him why they weren't and he said actually told me why my song sucked and after that meeting i knew that's where i wanted to write

I thought that was interesting. That's great. And he was like, and he got there a little bit quicker than, you know, a lot of his friends did because he was just like, okay, that's what I want to know. What am I doing? What, what isn't appealing about these or whatever? So long, long as that's the mindset, you know, and you're wanting somebody to tell you what you're doing wrong or what you could do better and not just say killer smash, you know, and all that stuff, which is what we're all used to hearing. It feels good in the moment, but it's not,

not usually true, you know, so be willing to take it and to work on it. And if it's not in the cards, it's not in the cards, you know, there's other stuff to do. That's been an awesome, incredible conversation. Ashley, we can't thank you enough. Seriously, for your time, all of that.

We hope you guys had as much fun as we did from the Patriot Mobile Studios. This has been the Try That in a Small Town podcast. Thanks, Ashley. Oh, thank you guys. Appreciate you, bro. Appreciate you, bro. Love you. Thank you. Make sure to follow along, subscribe, share, rate the show, and check out our merch at trythatinasmalltown.com.