Talking Dateline: The Sleepover
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Hi, everybody on judge mates, and we're talking date line with Andrea canning.

Hi, how are you ready to talk?

So what this episode is called the sleep over. Now if you, the audience, have not heard the podcast of this or if you didn't watch IT on television, IT is the episode right below this one on the list of podcast that you just chose from. So go there, listen to IT or watching on television, and then come back here.

When you come back, Andrew, and are going to talk about all kinds of things involving historic, and then we're also going to answer some of your viewer and listen your questions, because a lot of people posted on social media after the T, V interview and also remember its deadline, you never watch alone. You have us here all the time. One more thing, which is great, Andrew has an extra clip from the interviews that he did, uh, which was not shown on television.

So you gonna get to hear that here first. Okay, I gotta say the night, but I watched this story without knowing anything about IT. That's usually how I do IT.

I want to watch that the way the views do. And I thought greg nine one one call sounded quite genuine. He sounded like somebody who was worried, confused, didn't the worse wife was and starting to panic. jg.

Not with injuries. Now where become. 学习 喜欢 这个 说。

Yeah, no fly. I'm not sure what I took away from that called probably knew too much at that point. So you're probably a Better position to analyze .

the call in me. I think we've heard one one calls which are you know uh, austerity and sound authentic and no one one calls which are uh not a authentic and sound not authentic. So we've heard both.

I just had the episode on ghost can't talk and the wife you know her husband's man murdered and she's really like upset on the nine month and a lot of people on social meeting saying she's too upset. This is, this is acting and and SHE absolutely was not acting this. This was real. This was her genuine response. But for some people, IT was too much yeah.

I mean, I am reminded of story that about chasing pointer and taxes in which know the nine one one call is connected and she's not saying anything and then the minute the Operator is nine one, watch your emergency yeah, my husband is shot all of a sudden she's for six. But one second earlier SHE wasn't. I feel like .

everyone's going to catch on now from deadline. They're onna learn that little trick ah start your hyper revolting the moment that starts ringing.

So let's talk about some of the details of this case. If you're gna kill your wife, doing IT at home with the kids present feels like a risky way of trying to do IT. But I guess that was the allegation.

but that's the allegation and is certainly does seem risky if if the way that the state presented IT is true .

to tell the state things happen.

the state thinks greg was no supposedly tinkering around with the red minivan in the backyard and called Sherry out um to talk to him. The kids were incited in pizza, playing game, stuff like that. SHE comes out. He, according to the state their theory, shoots her in the minivan and then drives her to the wind. Dicky, and then that's where he gets into the lover, babysitter, Jennifer's car, and leaves the van there were sharing in the parking lot.

And Jennifer drives him back to the house. Today, this wouldn't .

work because the parking would covered in cameras, I mean, for sure. And also, jen fer claims that greg was wearing a wig when he met her in the parking lot and they he he drove him home and he threw the wag out the window. Greg, of course, completely denies killing Sherry and obviously does not agree with Jennifer version of events.

And he was acquitted for al. And then a, and then not early, I gotto say I would hire that defense attorney. This was a, this story was a good add for him.

Yeah, I mean, he was interesting. Actually, I had a conversation with him before the showers red about why he didn't go after Jennifer face to face directly in court so he you know eludes that she's the real killer Jennifer er, the babysitter but he doesn't confront her in court with that theory even though she's .

understand and he could have yes.

he said that he couldn't take the chance that the jury might believe her if he directly asked her or can accuse her of killing Sherry. So he stayed away from that. And the other thing that I didn't realize either was different states approach accusing someone else in trial. Different ways. If you're going .

to offer a third party defense that IT was not me IT was this person over here? Some jurors icons insist on some offer of proof. The examples always used as you can. You can say aliens .

did IT um because .

because that isn't have evidence that alliances .

some could see IT like throwing speaking ti at the wall well, you know wasn't him. So oh let's .

see if theyll by this california the sadi defense S O D D I, which stands for some other do did IT. I have never heard that before.

I liked what the defense .

attorney had to say about his reasonable doubt. Computer.

yeah, it's like if you if you put everything into a computer, what would the computer say? Like, almost like, what would A I say is what he really could have said that in the DNA, right? And he believed that that would spit out reasonably out.

And also crazy how we rarely hear an attorney given opinion about the guilty, innocence of a client. And I pushed them on IT. He said, you know, I waiver on that.

I ve never heard that before. Another reason I would want to hire that guy seems like very honest guy. Hope I don't need to.

Don't worry, you won't need Chris rafferty.

You never know one of the interesting things about this case, and i'm wondering whether this was something that ended up leading to the night guilty, is, you know, the cops waited and waited and waited for the kids. Memory is to get Better. But you know, the problem with that is that they're not disinterested parties. These are kids who lost their mom and may or may not harbor a bridge or what.

What have family members told you over the years? What have you read over the years? I mean, I could be any number of things that could alter a memory.

And i'm not saying that they their memories changed. I don't know. You know like that.

No one of the things that just have to think about is finite is what you you actually remember or you wish you remembered. And that's what hurts cases is like that.

And you know you think about your old childhood memories and how many of them are accurate and or have changed over the years. And I don't think anyone remembers things perfectly from, you know, under the age of ten.

I mean, I remember watching keys on television when I was a small time. But I somehow, like, like, that can be true, can IT. Well, I actually .

grew up in canada, but I, when he was on the habit, I was definitely not interested in the news at that age, so I wasn't watching he. Sadly.

he's going to be thrilled about this discussion. Let me just say.

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The same september of .

two thousand, one, right? Yes, right. After nine eleven.

I kept thinking of myself, like everybody in that family was like living to a reality. Like TV was probably about all nine eleven after months. And what's happening now and the search for people in new york, and meanwhile, they're living their own personal hell in pencil a that isn't getting covered and nobody y's talking about, but to them it's the biggest thing in their lives. And yes, truly remained that way.

You know what an odd time to have a tragedy like that in your family. So close to nine eleven because we're getting so much further and further away from nine eleven. We forget how we were all feeling as a country.

You know how disturbed an upset and just discommoding later we were. So then imagine piling that on top of that. I mean, it's I I just can even imagine that family having to just dear and are also in the military on top of that.

right? So they may i'm surely knew people who are you know mean not in that first week, but people who are thinking about you and deployed, and people who went to some state of ready right away know all stuff that greg Cherry would have been involved in.

right? And tina and jeff as well, they were on the navy to a.

did you know this is off topic completely, but I love .

gone on topic.

I know, but that's what we're here talking. They like the jar husband who was A A military pilot. He do any time in pencil.

A, he did, yes, he was went to flight school in pensa. Do you remember the show? pencil? A wings of gold .

do I remember IT of? Of course I do. H and all was kind .

of like the T. V. Top gun. And other guys would have their shirts off. They recapture the magic of top gun was like.

military bayway.

IT was great. Yes, exactly. yeah. won. Yeah, my husband flu, f eighteen s hornets.

And that was part of his training was in pennicote. And you know, jeff and t and I had a lot of military conversations. Well, I was in pencil a.

which was kind of fun. That probably helped you a little bit. So to be on the same page of the people interviewing, right?

Yeah IT is is because military people are tight, you know whether you know each other or not, whether you're in a different branch. Um there's there's a family like crotty element to the military that that is just organic, that just happens.

One of the things that I really thought about a lot in this was the the revelation that that sharing knew about Jennifer SHE knew something was up. How much must that hurt when you took a one year deployment by the time you get back, your husband is climbing in a bed with the baby.

said, yeah and he did that year to payment because IT was, do a year now and then you get to stay home for a really long time. Or if you don't do IT, then we're gona keep sending you away.

Got to approve everybody.

Yeah yeah and so he did that, which as a mother I just can't even imagine leaving my children for a year. That sounds just awful um but think about like her kids were her world and SHE did IT for them, you know so SHE would be there for them.

I get the feeling you know greg and Jennifer thought that know the kids won't notice anything. They won't be aware of that affair. And of course, kids are aware of a lot of things that you don't realize that they're aware when they are picking up .

on all kinds of cues. Kids are smart. And you heard jacket. He saw them on the carpet together, you know, with the wine and the kiss or whatever.

The thing that just leaped out at me was a the the kid who said the Sherry, you know, after he came back from Grace, daddy doesn't love you.

terror.

I mean, one of the things that that and this comes up in all these cases is the, you know, like people think about themselves and not about the children in the middle of this, I mean, likely had to grow up without their mom, all those kids and then they got cut off from their cousins who they clearly were very tight with which is another terrible thing of kids um you know now you have you know brother and sister with diametrically opposite views of the case you jack, who thinks is dad guilty convinced that IT and terrorists convinced .

these innocent yeah it's heartbreaking it's really heartbreaking and terror um when we interviewed IT was very close to um having her first child um and so that you know that was sad too because he wants jack to meet his enuff hew it's just really hard. Um and we have another we have an extra clip that didn't air in the show that we can .

that we can play for you with terror.

There's moments where you need .

your mom yeah I definitely felt that over the years for sure. Um I I don't remember the time that I didn't long for her and her presence and just throughout the big things in life, I wish he would have been at my graduation um I wish you'd be here you know with me when I .

have my .

first child expecting.

So so it's it's moments like that, things like that um she's always been in the back of my mind. I I was kind of in denial for a really long time about her actually being gone. Um since he was in the military thinking that I was about eleven, I had the story in my head that SHE was on a secret mission. SHE wasn't actually gone. She's on a secret mission and when he was finished to come back um it's hard break game so that was a really hard one to get over as I grew up but you finally .

have to say to yourself, she's not on the mission.

She's not coming back. So I mean, murder is a wrecking ball. You know, look at that family, I know.

because not only does he not have her mom, but then he has fractured relationships with her siblings on top of that and her cousins enter and call the people you need .

the most when you're you're in the middle of violent loss like that, it's it's a terrible thing to do.

Yeah I I like because because I interview to jack up in tera and I didn't get to interview the other siblings. I'm just rooting for those who I felt like at the end of my interviews. I was like, I just want to force these two back together because they belong together. You know this this brother and sister, they love each other. You can see IT.

they're just angry. Yeah, life tough enough without that. In terms of the way you guys presented the story, I am I thought you guys that are really good job of sort of in the first hour. You know IT looks like Jennifer i'm very taking like so SHE doesn't seem to be involved in this.

It's it's a little nugget right that we planted early on that you know some king viewers might have take .

a note somebody .

is a babysitter doing there on a friday night with a longer wer.

They're not needed to be the .

exactly I found .

Jennifer arrival at the house to give back a long moor kind of perplexing as a viewer because I thought, okay, we'll win a minute if she's involved, if she's partners in this, why is SHE shown up at all? You don't want to put yourself at the scene if you're involved, right? So I just stay home, give more back. The next day.

the prosecution believes that IT was greg's idea to have Jennifer come to the door with the lawn mower because remember, SHE drove him home from the verdict I according to generation er, the prosecutors.

So her arrived, her arrival at the house. IT would explain if somebody ever seen her drive there.

exactly. IT was an alabama was, oh, I was in the neighborhood because I was bringing the long Moore back.

A Jennifer had never spoken about this. No.

not not to the media SHE had given dribs and drawbacks views um to long enforcement .

never had body just like .

so that was our producer sergey of on and who somehow convinced Jennifer to sit down with us. And I mean, that's a big decision. I mean, after all that time and and you're she's working and you're like revealing all this stuff, I mean, I wow, I don't know if I could do that and he was very forthcoming about like so many elements of her life you he told me he did the interview for closure for the family. But i'm thinking to myself what you like that that could have come twenty years .

ago yeah and also I think that any, any, any sense of resolution that the you would have given the family would have been yet worth something much sooner when you realized that the person you're having a fair with is talking about murdering their spouse and their spouse then subsequently is murdered. I think that's when anybody with a conscience a goes to police and says, look, this is, this is not onna make me look good but here's what I know SHE .

said that SHE was into deep at that point that he would have turned IT around on her. SHE was scared. SHE sort of made IT sound like he was kind of brain washington like he was under his spell.

We don't know if Jennifer's story is true. I mean that the defense thinks that Jennifer might have killed Sherry, but this is Jennifer's story. The prosecutor gave her the right platform to tell that story in court, and Jennifer told us that he is telling the truth.

Well, the story doesn't make her look good. I mean, that's the thing is it's not she's not heroic and story.

Maybe some of her reason he didn't know say this, but maybe some of IT was you know cathartic for her to talk about IT openly. I know, I don't know. I thought after interview I was now thinking to myself I wonder if she's like, upset, know, because I I was, know it's an intense interview.

And afterwards we said, could we would you take us to the spot where you throw the gun over the bridge? And so SHE SHE took us there, and SHE was driving back to illini that night. He had to be at work in the morning, driving from florida to elena. And SHE still agreed to go to the bridge.

I was so surprised, and there was a visitor at the the dock where we went to go to see the bridge, and the stray dog would not leave the shot, and IT just kept barking and barking, and we were trying everything we could to get the dog out of the shot. And finally, just like, okay, the dog can be in the shot. I don't know any of our like, ego lide viewers noticed that you know we had a we had a friend, we had a guest on the .

shoot um so this is legally the end of the road isn't, I mean, Jennifer testified person into a plea agreement, she's not going to get charged. Double jeopardy applies a greg cannot be tried again. No, for murder.

You know the question is whether he could be, you know, tried and you know, federal court for depriving Sherry over civil rights by killing her. That's one way that that that sometimes prosecutions get around this. That case is not the works as far as you know no and of course.

there's always the wrongful death civil lawsuits that someone like Jacob could file against a step father I any talk of that but you know that's another avenue okay.

Um we will be back in a minute with viewer and listener .

mail and there was plenty of IT. A touched her for moto.

hide, a pinch of assail, a hide, a splice of a court, makes the perfectly F.

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So a tremendous amount of viewer and listener mail on this one which are not surprised about. Let's get to that. The first one is from someone named this who votes in to say, continued rick rolling of keys will mean that you are out of a, you know what, that's actually internal email that's not your mail say, yeah, I know that lets go to the actual listener viewer mail jeffy pop culture wrote, Jennifer will all do respect.

You're a grown woman and you could have ended things. That's your question, Jennifer, who knew greg was married and didn't care? And that's why I love Andrea.

I saw so many emails saying essentially, Andrea, you go. I sent you like twenty of them. I.

Yeah, I mean, I just with her, I knew I needed to take a tone that didn't turn into her into a marter or a victim.

But let's talk just a little bit about how hard IT is sometimes to know exactly how tough to be on somebody because you don't want to beat up on someone to the point where the audience feels sorry for them.

You know you want to be asking the questions and chAllenging people in the way that the audience word if they were asking the questions like, you know, how could you do that? You know how? How did you not know this? And sometimes it's hard to know how hard to go at people yeah.

I think when it's a killer admitting they did IT, yes, I killed this person. I think you can go as hard as you want IT.

The tough part is when that person isn't actually accused of something isn't actually legally accused of.

right, like Jennifer or the other tRicky one is when you do an interview with someone pretrial .

well and at that point, they are still entitled to the presumption of the vert doesn't come in exactly.

So it's like it's not totally our place to go super hard when they are still presumed in is.

And we also know by the time people see this interview in which the person is presumed innocent, they will no longer be innocent because we wait until this thing is over and they'll be a verdict in. So so a unless you're pretty sure which way it's gonna, sometimes it's a little hard to to judge that because you don't want to prejudge. But on the other and people people are seeing IT after the end.

Uh so here's a question um about Jennifer's immunity from a Daisy cat one twenty five. How do you give someone complete community? Doesn't some part of the legal brain say that this person could also be involved even to through a lesser extent, I to see the crime?

And to answer that question, daily hat, that was a big question to the prosecutor. You know, knowing that people are gonna like what the hack, how does this woman get nothing? And the prosecutor just said, you know, the case was so old, IT had been so hard to even get IT to this point, you know, that we just felt like he was holding all the cards because SHE, there was really no evidence, you know, proving what he did. It's impossible .

to charge him with murder and her, with an, with accessory, without her testimony against him.

right? So they elt like we really have much on her anyway. So let's just get the big fish in which the person think, thought was greg. Of course, greg was acquitted.

Um IT sounded to me as if Jennifer, in her statement, the prosecutors gave up a little bit more than they suspected her of SHE did.

He ended up telling them about the gun being you tossed over the bridge so SHE did open up more and more um the thing about Jennifer that was tRicky though, was just how many times her stories changed and even in my interview, SHE was contradicting .

yourself about things. Me ABS in B R A B S I N B R. Uh, I have so many thoughts about the state line that so that was easier to criticize, prosecuted.

But I really question why N C I S didn't push harder at the beginning when two navy personnel was involved. And one of the problems was that there was not any evidence. And another is that N C I S in real life is not the same as C I S. Deluge, not solved .

after the commercial break.

No, it's not everything. What up in sixty minutes. So I mean, you know there was like at the beginning of this sort of no evidence or not enough evidence or nothing pointing directly at any one person.

There's they're really wasn't and they tried with with Jennifer. They tried with greg, you know, but they just without that forensic evidence and without either you, the kids didn't really know what was going on. Jennifer wouldn't talk. Greg wouldn't talk. So they were stuck.

Can to see, ask us what under the life insurance money is the is the kids get any when they turn to certain age? Um that's a good question. What what did have the insurance?

Greg got all the insurance money.

which is two hundred and fifty, two hundred and sixty thousand hours.

Yeah, he's the the surviving spouse so the money goes to him.

Taught in sports ride, jackie was right. Justice for his mom will happen in a space we won't see.

He was back to the religion.

You think Jacobs gonna find peace with this at some point, because very tough time IT.

He's unsettled with the relationship, you know, with his sister in the rest of, you know, the family members being divide ded. I could just see IT all over his face. You know, he has three daughters.

I said, focus on your daughters, focus on being a great dad because that's something you can do. You can be a great dad and and he agreed, yes, he's they're not in a good spot right now like this. Things need to get Better .

along those lines. Gina fro strong, uh, writes us to say how difficult was IT for jake ob to take those pictures with him, him being greg, the wedding pictures. J obt of pretend father was that which I just don't know how you would be able to do that.

I won't do that. I just couldn't do. I can't fake anything. I'm terrible faking or being nice to people, but I don't like. So that wouldn't amazing that he was able to.

I mean, I think that if I believe that somebody who was my wedding was involved in a murder that directly affected me, I really take any pictures.

I mean, but big of jack up to invite to allow him to come to the wedding so terror could come. You know that was the reason was to get terror to the wedding.

So I I N in the s there is .

photoshop. Josh can just like play nice smile and and crop them .

out and I got my brother of all my pictures.

No just getting .

um thank you, Andrea. Always a pleasure to talk with you and thanks for listening to us here on talking date line. Now if you have any other questions for us about our stories or about just date line in general, we would like to hear that and you can reach out at dateline nbc and as always, see you friday on deadline on nbc.

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