The Perfect Life
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states situations tonight on deadline innocent.

i've always been innocent.

A dramatic new turn in a riveting case.

the way I was portrayed. That's not how to went down at all. I want the truth to come out.

You come home from school and your mom is missing.

Yeah, you don't know what to do. You know how to behave.

I was told that a body was found. My life .

law enforcement were just so focused on him. Well, he was having an affair, so he must have committed this crime.

I am her closest friend. I betray her in the worst way and and she's gone.

Did your dads say anything to you like I didn't do this?

Yes, he did. And I believe him.

He's a master manipulator.

How certain were you that rami rams rand killed his wife?

No doubt my mind.

We discovered that under Jennifer, fingernails was male.

DNA the DNA internet? F my White fingernails. It's not mine. Who is IT?

A wife murdered, a husband accused and an ending that you won't see coming unless your hold. And this is deadline.

He is angry, accounting with the perfect life. Has anyone ever described you as quickly or odd or goofball?

absolutely.

At date line, we meet a lot of big talkers, but few as big as rummy RAM around.

If there's one thing about me, I can talk to anyone. Any question ask me, i'll be more happy to provide.

He had lots to say about his happy life in his tiny upstate new york town.

I had a perfect life. I have everything anyone would want.

And when tragedy struck and the details of his so called perfect life came tumbling out, reme kept talking.

here's the thing, I have truth of my sad. I don't have any deep, dark secrets.

Now, a decade after we first spoke to him, romney has more to say. You don't have any regrets about saying that.

Take hang. So this is .

new information.

This is absolute information.

new discoveries, new evidence and a brand .

new ending bomb. Shall bb shall.

To understand how we got here, we need to go back to a cold winter night, december eleven, twenty twelve, a worried rumney rams around called nine one one.

Kay, tell me exactly what happened, but my wife left this morning between canal eleven and SHE hadn't been back, and i'm really free to out.

IT was evening, and his wife jane should .

have been home from a shopping trip. And this is unlike her and I.

The morning had started much like any other for the family.

I remember seeing my mom that morning gave the hug in the morning, and then I want to go make my breakfast lunch.

Glad the middle child of three was ten. Did you take you to school or or did you take the bus to school, just like any other day?

Now.

rami got bad from dropping the kids off around A A, M. His wife, jane, was in the kitchen.

When I came home, jane was eating jabari yogurt and koshi cereal at the table, and he was on her ipod touch. And then I went to the living room, and I sent some emails and certain things to that effect.

Rummy was a project manager for IBM who worked from homeless days. Jn, took care of the house and k.

that morning he was supposed go to circus.

The mall in circus was a bit of a drive, but I had all the nice stores, and he wanted to get their daughter a new dress for Christmas.

gave me kiss on the cheek. And then he left.

left in her red chrysler minivan. The mall was sixty miles away through winding back country roads, not an easy drive, especially in winter.

He gets dark kind and janne does not driving in dark and stuff. And SHE was supposed to home, like, run for thirty five lockers. Anyways.

when do you start to get a little worried .

right around that time? Once to start getting dark.

rummy had been texting jane all day with no response. He checked in with her best friend, elie sales. Well.

he actually called me um that night, SHE didn't come home and asked if I had heard from her. And I said.

now, what are the scenarios playing out in your head?

Cx was the big one. I really thought some type of car accident .

that's when rami made that call to nine one one.

Have you attempted? Oh, woman, trying to color times and texture and response. I told him that really worried, as I haven't heard from a sense about eleven when you left, which is highly unusual.

Well, I think that would be Normal for most people to be, to start to be concerned. After nine hours.

detective Richard cub work for the sHenna o county share of office. This was just a trip to them all. SHE should have been home by van.

Yeah, he should have been home.

Officer started looking up accident reports, checking hospitals .

at the reba crash, or maybe a vehicle broke down, and some other police agency had stopped to a sister. And, you know, if he was on her way back. But that was in the case in this one.

are you able to sleep at all?

Oh, no. I was up all night.

The next morning, the kids woke up with questions. What are you told?

You know, he went shopping or she's not back yet. My reaction wasn't too severe because she's my mom.

Nothing's going to happen to her mom. Probably you home school.

Did you believe that?

That's what's my hope.

What did you believe that?

I didn't know what to believe.

I was concerned I needed to know what happened.

Rummy also called his best friend Jason wix. After he told me about gentlemen, I was talking with some of the guys at work.

Couple people asked me, theyd tried to find my, I film up. So I called him and me, did you try this?

He hadn't. So after driving the kids to school, remi had IT straight to the police department. While talking with the police chief, remi tried to find my iphone APP.

And long behold, a connected to her iphone.

You figured out where her iphone was.

Yeah, right there at the police station with him. And IT looked like the phone was moving and I was freaking out.

The spot was almost twenty miles outside of town.

IT did show allocation of Jennifer phone twenty three at the intersection of a moon hill road. And antonia .

climate officers headed there, looked around, didn't find anything. So romney decided to go look for himself. He got out of the car and open the APP.

hitting the play sound. Play sound is a high freaking loud sound. And I walked the bank and I didn't hearing anything.

And and then I crossed the street and I started hearing, and I looked, then I thought, I map call nine one one. I found my wife. I found IT was the first .

big clue in the mystery of what happened to je rams. And IT launched a soga that would consume the small town for longer than anyone imagined.

You ve got a love triangle. You've got DNA. You've got some blood.

Evidence that's twisted, very twisted.

That's a mysterious element to this.

IT is a mysterious element.

There is no words for. I've never seen anything like that.

Jane RAM, iran had apparently gone out shopping and didn't return. The only clue in her disappearance was her phone ditched off the side of the road.

Her husband ramming was the one who found IT. I haven't touched that. I could see IT from here, can send someone out here.

Where exactly was IT found?

I was kind of write over in that area. I was it's a little more weedy now than IT was then. But IT was among some weeds, some shorter weeds and some rocks.

You must have felt like we have a key piece of evidence pretty quickly in this disappearance.

know, obviously he was key evidence that was the first real physical clue that we had in .

the investigation. Rami called jen's best, and I am with the news.

He said, I found her phone and I thought, oh my god, I couldn't believe that my heart sunne.

Did you think something sinister had happened?

absolutely.

Ly, but to investigators, a ditched cellphone could mean anything.

This was for intensive purposes in adult woman who may have just left her life on a wim.

Police treated IT as a missing person's case, checked hospitals and searched roadside accident reports, but didn't immediately launch any large scale physical searches. Jones father went looking himself, driving around anywhere he could think of up and down country roads, looking for a sign of his daughter or her. Van sh'd been missing five .

days when he saw something. Yeah, tom rents yet of her rave. His father, yes, I found IT was genes.

Red van IT had been abandoned here in this apartment complex, eight miles from her house. That must have been just an awful, awful discovery for her father. I'm sure that was investigators arrived on the scene. The van was empty, but inside they found spots of blood. Now that the van has been found, and it's clear that something bad has happened to jan, are all your worst fears being realized?

Absolutely, absolutely devastated. Absolutely devastated. shocked. I was .

scared to death.

There is the big news. I mean, this is such a small town. Patent null is a local newspaper reporter and friend of the family. The story hit home for him and a lot of people around town. A woman with three children has gone, gone.

This right around Christmas, so there was right at the heart of of the most part of the most joy est time of the year. And this, the police are dealing with Jenny rama. Rama lived a quiet life here in the backwoods of upstate new york. Their town, new berlin, is so small that barely registered a thousand people in the last census.

the stereotypical small town living, but at a great house and was A A lot of fun family gatherings.

This is a great place to raise a family. absolutely.

We found a beautiful home right next .

to strangle lag romi. And jen had been married thirteen years. They were college sweet arts. What was IT that you fell for the most about her, her .

personality? He was special.

He was so friendly, and you felt instantly comfortable with her.

Geni lean met through their daughters in girl scouts, and the two families had become close.

We would say, good morning to each other on text. SHE either say that, or I would say.

at first, it's so nice when you can find someone like that.

IT is, I mean, he was always there for me, always, no matter what. I needed twelve .

and everyone who knew the couple, jane was ramy's opposite. He was sweet and quiet. He was loud. In boysterous.

there are so many people that would walk up to my wife and go, i'm so sorry. How do you put up with him?

Has anyone ever described to you as quark e.

or odd or goofball? Absolutely, including jen, and probably anyone to seven.

Romney is a real force.

Yes, we knew when he walked in the room at some points you're like, out here comes from me now. Yeah, he's loud. Their opposite .

attract relationship somehow just worked. Jean fran trees lizer says. Jane seemed happy and busy being a stayed home mom to her three kids.

That's pretty much the biggest thing that he talked about with her kids. Jane was a sunday school teacher? yes.

Kitting instructor? yes. SHE was also very good at cooking, very marthe's. R yes, rami was focused on climbing the corporate latter, first at Charles swap and later at american express and IBM. He was also into running marathon's.

lots of them. Twenty six marathon's.

And I was sponsor in one year, twenty six marathons. Yes, you would go with him as a family when he would run .

the marathon's. Yeah, most of time I ran a five k and then at ten k the day after that knows I want to say around eleven I think I was eleven. I was the Youngest person they're doing the ten k.

Romney also got his wife spread iran into marathon's.

We started working now, and then he had mentioned running.

But as romney spent more time training for marathon's, jane merced herself in a competition of her own SHE started playing an online game called kingdoms of camelot, where players from all over the world take on medival roles and team up to wage battles together.

SHE would show me like pictures of her castle and her kingdom that he was building on the phone.

Do you remember your mom playing the game kingdoms of camelot?

I'd see her on her laptop a lot, but I don't know what he was playing. I know SHE spent a significant amount of time on her laptop.

The game had jen in touch with strangers from all over the internet, and now john was gone.

The first thing I thought was these people in the game.

which could be a recipe for disaster.

right? And that's what I thought in my heart.

But IT was more than just a theory. I lean to a secret, the kind only a best friend would know.

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Well, rumney rams around spent much of twenty twelve running marathon's. His wife, john was the most in the fantasy world of kingdoms of Cameron in the online game. Jn, the mom of three was transformed into a lady among lords.

SHE just wanted to be on our game, and I would joke around about genre. You know, come back to the real world. You know, pull yourself out of that game. SHE was definitely sucked into IT. SHE was .

checking out a little bit very much.

so that start .

turning a prediction. And he was on IT quite a lot close to eight hours a day, maybe more, even in the evenings.

Did you feel like you were losing your mom a little bit because he was on the computer so much?

SHE stopped coming the living room to watch, you know, the family shows. SHE became more and more SHE .

wasn't cooking. They were ordering out every night. I did the laundry one night because we just so stacked up. The kids didn't have anything. And I said, want your laundry.

She's like while on a recent shopping trip together, mainland says all jen could talk about was her game and the new friends he was making online. There was one player, in particular a british man named rob.

and he would joke around about, you know, things they would talk about because in england is different than IT. Is here so different? And I think she's that Allen .

says jan confessed that the online friendship had turned flotations ous SHE even knew what kind of colonne war .

r we swang in to the mall, and he wanted to smell his clone, and we did. We smell his long .

had her appearance started change a little bit.

but IT wasn't in everyday thing. It's just randomly. One day I would stop by, and he had made a bunch.

SHE said he was taking pictures of her self and SHE would tell herself up, take pictures. I thought, you know, that's fine. But on the other hand, kind of strange, rob knew where he lived and was think about relocating, coming appear.

And he's in england.

Yeah, I said, what if he does come up here and SHE kind of giggled.

Now, with jane missing, iee felt he had no choice but to tell the police. Did you think that perhaps this man, this quasi stranger, had come all the way to new york and just wanted to meet her that badly?

You know, I didn't know. I didn't know if he was really from england. What if he was closer? You know, people lie online all the time.

Did you feel the need to get in touch with this, rob?

Immediately we work to do that almost from the start. We sent a message through the, through the gaming APP. This is we going to share office. Jennifer been reported missing. We're wondering if you'd heading contact with her.

Turns out rob was in the U. K. Inner pool, arranged a meeting between him in the british police robot, admitted he was married, and used the word intimate to describe his relationship with jane.

Jennifer had sent some sort of launder ing, and he had sent her believe, one hundred and fifty dollars that SHE never picked up.

Did he express what that money was for.

I believe us for to buy herself a gift. You know, this is early december ge, close to Christmas time.

Rob jan had talked about meeting in person, but he insisted he hadn't been anywhere near new york when he disappeared. In fact, he said he'd been worried too, wondering why jane hadn't been online for days. As the detective work to check out his story, I, leann, broke the news to rami about his wife's online romance.

And when I told him he was a serious, you know what, you know, he was guys said, you know, this man online knows where he lives.

An emotional redney spoke to jan directly on the .

local news. I don't think you ever, ever know how much, how much we care for, how much you love.

Rummy says that despite the blood evidence, he closed to hope that jane was still alive. He posted frequent updates on facebook. He was alone with three kids, and I thought he was grasping at anything that he could get to feel like maybe his wife was out there. Stele, are you asking your dad? Where's mom what happening?

He always told us, will find her. And we did mean various things aware. And as I member one time, we are letting a bunch of land turns. And IT got on the news.

There's no doubt in my mind I set up before. There's no double in my mind that we're not going to see her again. There's no that of my mind.

Winter snow was blanketing the town, and underneath at all, another secret. Some people are going to remember you as being the worst, kinder friend to jane.

You know, you can't take back what you ve done.

Jane rama ran had been floating with a guy SHE met playing an online game. SHE confess to her friend that he d even sent him laury in the mail.

No laury that really bothered me that he had sent that. I thought that was serious.

Rami felt betrayed, but he didn't get much sympathy from his best friend, Jason. That's because Jason knew that romney also had a secret.

Why are you so mad at the possibility that he was having an affair, as I was you've been having in a fair yourself?

That's right. Mad as he was about genes, online romance. Romney had been cheating on her. And with the last person on earth SHE would ever .

expect in my heart, in my stomach, I knew is wrong.

This is your wife's best for years, the girl scout trip.

Very bad thing.

The affair between romney and I began nearly a year before jane disappeared. They've been spending lots of time together training for marathon's. That's when romney had an epiphany while running in the arizona heat.

And IT was wanted to it's one of the first marathon's. I wanted to try and run without drinking a drop of water. I eventually got that chAllenge myself.

There was like streets of salt on my back, and I started cramping up and hurt, but I didn't give up and still going in. And a song came on by the Christian rock man skill IT tomorrow, one day too late. And as i'm running, my mind just drifted.

And that song hit home. And I love that song. And the person that came to my mind was alien.

It's this man in the middle of desert, running without water, who realizes .

that you.

you're the real love of his life.

I didn't know that.

A few weeks later, romney told Dylan he was falling for .

her rapa kiser and I did and we both felt extremely ly guilty.

And did you kissed him back? I did.

And then I laughed, just like that sad my car from me a thinking.

what did I just do? Some people would have been shock, shocked and said, what are you doing this chance? My best friend, why are you doing .

this right?

What was your got telling you?

My god was telling me, no, you can't do this strong. So wrong.

Still, not long after that first kiss, they took the relationship to the next level. Did you feel at any guilt concentrating this relationship in the house that you share with your wife?

I know you would say yes, but I didn't geni had a great gran apart.

Did you talk to john about getting divorce?

Yes, oh, yes. I handle different times .

for alien at least. IT was more than just physical, even though he was married with kids herself. SHE was falling in love with .

rumney to feel that someone cared like he did. Everyone wants to to feel that importance.

What was that about him that you were so attracted to?

His personality was huge. I mean, always love to do up, always made you feel important. I felt invincible.

Elian says ramy's confidence was intoxicating. So was his good job and generosity. So also during this time, he's buying you close with some rules attached.

but I could not wear them around. Pat your husband, right? He was not allowed to see me. And there were a lot of running close, you know, was not allowed to wear them in front of him.

Did you abide .

by those rules?

Yes, my dad, why? How do you have this power over you?

I don't know. I've really, honestly, unfortunately, one of my bad characters is i'm a very weak, weak person.

And len said they would get together whenever they could slip away from their jobs and kids. That's a lot of sneaking around.

Yeah, I couldn't take IT. I couldn't IT was too much. I got to be too much.

Did he say to you i'm going to divorce?

He's said that yeah, to them make you happy? no. Now, because I know that would hurt her .

during the fair, I lean separated from her husband and moved out, though he was in the dark about why. Then a few weeks before jane went missing, I lean broke IT off with rummy and moved back home. But SHE and romney weren't completely done. In fact, they were together the day before .

jane went missing. We did have sex. I want to further the relationship at that point.

How did he handle that?

You know, he. He gets upset, you know, he wants what?

He wants an affair with the best friend. What would investigators think that's kind of a bomb shell.

It's it's a big bomb shell. yes.

Allees affair with romney had lasted for nearly a year, something she'd been hiding from her husband, pat, and her best friend jane. But after jane went missing, I lean, knew he had to come clean to the police.

I needed to help john. I needed them to find her, and I would do anything to help them at that moment.

How did they react to you when you told them that you were having an affair with your best friend, husband and your best friend is missing?

You know, they really weren't didn't really show me much. You know, they just took what I sad wrote IT down.

And that was that you must have been so nervous though, because this is the first time you're openly talking about this affair to someone other than rummy.

yeah. And I was nervous that, you know, pats gone to find out at this point. And here comes my world in now. My film is gonna that i'd deceive them too.

But he wasn't alone at the police station. Romney was there too, right by her side. Though he initially lied and told investigators his marriage was fine, he quickly fessed up.

I don't have anything in my life to feel embarrassed about except that, you know, yes, I lead in my phone in love, but I don't have any deep, dark secrets .

that wants pretty deep.

IT is what IT is. But besides that, there is, no, I don't drink. I don't.

I'm not a wife beater. I'm not a kid beater. I'm nothing. People have affairs. IT is what IT is like.

your wife's best friend, and she's gone missing.

That's a bomb shell. I don't I don't see how that's a bomb shell because I volunteer every and all information. Whatever was asked .

where IT does get around, I don't think his affair was a secret, as he thought I was.

Is this the classic have to look at the spouse?

I won't say in this cases was the classic look at the spouse. Certainly weed, he was a suspect at that point, you know, so were others. IT was as much to rule him out as he wants to rule him. And at that point we need to to clarify a couple of things. You what about his his wearing about and what he was doing on the morning of december eleven.

rummy went over the details of that morning with investigators.

drop the kids off, came back home between eight, five, eight, fifteen. And I had always logged on to work. There was still some stuff with the projects I was working with. All the colleagues on is still needed to be done so well, odds and end. So I had both laptops on rummy.

said jane left to go shopping around ten thirty. And after that he went for a run ending up at the local Y, M, C. A.

He told police his exact route through town as detective cops set out to arborous rummy's alby. He was still looking into Jennifer friend rob from the computer game. The bridge she'd been floating with anybody .

was a suspect in the beginning of the investigation. Rob and and anybody else that you may have had contact with .

the detective asked U. S. Immigration to run a check on rob's passport. The agency reported back rob had not entered the united states in twenty twelve, so rob from the fantasy game was cleared as a potential suspect. Still, romney insisted jen had run off with someone.

I've told that to the police many times, many times.

And do you think he was a direct link to these online games?

absolutely.

Do you think he was having an affair?

I can almost guarantee IT. In fact, that's what I believe happened on december eleventh. SHE went to go meet someone.

Even if he had not met up with rob from the U. K. I lean still wondered who else john had been talking to. All you know was that rob was the only one SHE told you about, right? She's not telling you about any of the other guys in .

the launch today. I thought. Did you do that to someone else? You know.

while I lean was wondering about that, investigators were wondering about her. Why was I lean a possible suspect just because .

of a relationship or her involved with Jennifer and mister ramsa? An generally, you would think, husband nor a male might commit murder, but women can. Also.

police asked to lean to take a polygraph test. The results were inconclusive.

And they span IT around on me, said, I was lying. I wasn't. I was truthful from the beginning, and all I wanted to do with help.

If you were being open about the affair, what did they think you are lying about?

They would ask questions. Not, where were you on such, such a day as working? You know, yeah, I met up with him.

Police investigated the case as a potential homicide, even though jenn was still officially a missing person. Now you've got the van, you've got the phone, but he saw no body right. Is that frustrating?

I was very frustrating to not be able to find her.

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The disappearance of je RAM saran had officially been a missing person case for two and a half months, february twenty six, two thousand and thirteen. That all changed.

Eleven o'clock at night, I get a phone call and the police meter downstairs. I went downstairs. I then locked the door, and that's when I was told that the body was found. Is my wife? Are you sure that was hard cranching high branching?

What did you?

How did you tell the child? I called all three kids into the master bedroom at hand. I told the kids maison heaven, but he is, how is going to be with us? That's probably most difficult thing i've ever had to do.

and we all cried for a while.

So devastating .

you grow up fast um but also somewhat emotionally stunted. I guess you don't know what to do, know how to behave.

Jane body had been discovered on an in bank man about twenty miles from her house.

The snow had started the melt and settle on off the SHE part of her became exposed.

SHE had no close on right.

He was found making I send people out here and the same was secured. Until we are able to get different to .

people who are process that he was awful to grieve. And I knew at this point there's no telling. I'm sorry.

IT really frustrates me. Jane, body was found just a little over three miles away from where that phone was.

You feel the police should have .

looked hard to absolutely even helicopter something on .

the day jen's body was found, rummy called the local news media back to his house.

Be strong for the kids, make sure they're okay like me, and i'll figure that out.

Despite rammers tears, one by one, focus s around town began to turn against not just him, but I lean to. They soon realized they hadn't kept their secret very well. We wearing a carley letter.

So we we've were saying I was involved somehow, you know, and that crushed me, you know, and I could stand up for myself. There's nothing I can say to make anyone believe me and why would they felt awful? Um so what pushed .

me towards to him?

Did you start to talk .

about being together permanently?

I would go over makes everyone was okay if you need anything you know, didn't plan on moving. And did .

he want you to?

He did what? No, not necessary. You know, the kids are going through so much. You need to focus on the children.

Back then, glen didn't think there was anything strange about his mom's best friend being around their house.

I saw her frequently, like some days after school, he would just be there with her kids. I was more than happy to play with her daughters.

Could you tell if anything on with your dad and alien at that time?

Kinda sum. But there was no inherent like proof that I had as that I had witnessed.

How did that make you feel assuming that that they were together?

I hadn't harbor any hate for IT. IT wasn't anything like I was. I didn't make me upset, but I didn't feel good like my mom. We'll always be my mom, and I love her.

Glenis dad tried to protect him and his sisters from all the attention the investigation created.

I knew that he was experiencing some major sadness.

He was trying to keep things as Normal as possible. Would you say.

yeah, he's trying to make sure we were all happy and as well off as we could be .

at home he may have been shielding his kids but online romney was out spoken. He started saying things about jane like, you know well, SHE wasn't really a mother for the past six months. He was he had um disconnected herself from the family.

He seems like a total over share. Yes yes, over shared everything. He was using .

social media and news media to kind of get his .

message message. He had a Jennifer's .

change SHE was an the mother, wife, a housekeeper, cook that he used .

to be trying to flex off of himself .

that actually, really, and put this on Jennifer.

For investigators, the heat of ruling, rubbing out or in, meant corrugating his timeline. From that day, he told the detectives he saw jane leave to go shopping. Around ten thirty A M.

That we start looking through her cell phone information. We found out that her cell phone last connected to the home wifi network at ten fifty seven on to seven eleventh.

This is a red flag for you that her phone is clearly at home when she's not supposed to be right.

It's hard for him to .

explain what else was starting to bother you.

What we are starting, collect different surveilLance videos from from various convenient stores, banks, anywhere along the root. That that mister answer am iran, from the residence to the Y. M. C. A.

Turns out rami wasn't on any of them, but he was on tape here stretching before entering the y at twelve forty two pm.

So his his alii of running this certain route appears to be false. So we have all these things that are now taking the focus off. This could be anybody, and putting IT really on, mr. answering.

Investigators now believed romney lied about what he was doing. The morning then disappeared. As for I lean, the detective was able to verify her. I, for the time gender sap peared SHE was at, worked that morning, but not that afternoon. Both he and rummy told investigators this after his run, alien picked rema from the y and drop him off at home.

We started the question, though, that Allen picked mister answer and up from the lime sea before, after one a clock that afternoon.

he wondered if he wasn't involved in the actual murder. Maybe he was somehow involved in the cover up. Did you still think that maybe he knew all along what had happened?

That was still a possibility that that he had some kind of guilty knowledge?

They thought I wasn't giving them everything in which I was not. If I had more, I would have given that I would have given anything to help.

Italian says IT was clear investigators, we're trying to build a murder case against remi .

and I just said no that, you know, i'm not believing that .

from me could be controlling you, but just in your eyes, not controlling enough where he would take .

his own wife's like now I that never even cross my mind.

But IT certainly crossed investigators minds, especially when they found a bloodstain on romney sweatshirt, the one he was wearing, the day je disappeared. Then, three months after jen's body was found, more forensics came in with the autopsy report. What was the medical examine able to tell you?

Well, he was able to rule out any natural cause for her death, any toxic, logical cause for a death. He ruled out suicide and didn't find any anxiety cause. So I mean, I mean, essentially in your left of homicide.

what would that leave strangulation if there's no visible Marks on the body?

Strangulation, suffocation would be possibility.

Yes, I get a focal. Can you come on down? Um we have those medical results. Uh, will finally get to talk to and tell you exactly what happened.

Well, we wanted one more shot. Did the interviewing mr.

And rent this time? Investigators didn't hold .

back OK the time 吧。 What have I told you? I have.

May seventeen, twenty thirteen, six months after jane RAM saran had gone missing, her husband ramming was back, talking with detectives, and IT wasn't friendly.

What's the truth? What do you have in?

I have the truth, you.

I never.

Did did you about and clearly, I don't know why you think you're on camera run in past these places. You're not I don't know why you cannot get that in your head with me that the canada is a lie, the person does and you're the one line .

I like to leave.

You're not leaving, i've told you. So you're not even you're your .

arrest the same day oh yeah, not just booked perp walk from a block away straight through and chains and medals and leg arms obol ex.

I get pulled into the elementary office and my grandparents are there to pick us up.

And I mean, how do they even do they tell you exactly what's happened?

I don't remember how they explained IT to me. I just know they probably did. There is just no skips in time that I don't have any particular memory of.

I lean saw on the news. You want to believe that remi is incapable this absolutely. The man loved or loved.

absolutely.

By the time they arrested rami, investigators were convinced alan had been telling the truth.

There is no evidence the shady involvement in Jennifer's homicide.

but from behind bars on a recorded jail line, rammd was calling her a lot.

Oh, my girl. That's I. I close my eyes and I nationally. so. You, what do do you want to .

talk about?

He wanted to know what I was doing, trying to talk me to move into the house. Still, at this point.

me one favor when get them. Are you very honestly going to move finally? Yeah.

I and I would almost agree. Yes, you just so the phone calls would stop a little bit and you know, it's strange. I felt guilty that he was in jail because part of me thought there's no way, there's no way he heard her.

When did you start to have doubts that what you had believed all along maybe wasn't really what happen, that maybe rummy was somehow involved?

And his dad called me and said they found blood on the switch. And I thought, OK, but i'm thinking back, i'm thinking to their house and how messy the house was and and i'm thinking, and maybe it's old blood, just little things, we're starting to play in my head and scared me.

Are you starting to live in rewind, going back over every moment, every word I lean, slowly cut off all contact with romney as this case went to trial.

the case will be about the murder of Jennifer rams.

Ramy's trial began in september twenty fourteen. Joseph c. Bride was the chenango carney district attorney. Do you think the motive was Christal clear?

I think that the defendant was obsessed with his girlfriend in sales. He was constantly asking the sales to leave her husband so that they could be together. So one, in december eleven, rolled around. IT was time for him to get rid of his wife.

The da played some of those many jail calls between romney and alien.

You know, I look at my link finger every day, and I just imagine your name right on her. You are gift from god. You were meant t for me and I know is meant for you.

right? Yeah, he called you around two thousand times.

Yeah, I no idea was that much.

Romney friend Jason testified for the prosecution. He told the jury rummy plan to divorce jan and keep custody of the kids.

I mentioned them the gender of getting the kids, and he was very confident that he would be the one to have. The kids I kept tell him was like, I don't think that's exactly how's going to play out.

Jennifer was going to be a custody. And why is that important? That gives them another reason, another mode of to kill his wife.

Alien was the centerpiece of the prosecutors case. He called her to the stand where SHE faced remm y in court. How difficult was IT for you to testify?

I'm very hard. You know, who wants to talk about their sex life in front of so many people in fit to be written the papers for your kids to read?

SHE testified about the day jan disappeared, how rummy called her and asked her a ride home from the gym.

then said goodbye outside of his house. He got out, he said, I know you're busy and never invited me in. Nothing I lean told .

the jury SHE was trying to break up with rumney, but the two had been intimate the day before. And now IT seems odd that he didn't try again that afternoon.

And that's one of the things that, looking back, why didn't he invite me on?

The defender was always interested in in sexual relations when he was along with his girlfriend that afternoon, the defendant didn't ask her to come into the house to be alone. They could be together because, ladies and gentleman, he was an interested in relations that day because he had other things on his mind. He had just killed his wife, and he had to think about what he had do next is trying not get caught.

The prosecutor told the jury rumney had been lying to the police all along. Romney said he was working on his computer that morning, but a forensic expert testified that couldn't be true.

And examining the computers, the expert said that there was no work done there or those hours. Once again, the defendant story doesn't match the evidence, an earth theory of the case, the defendant that killed his wife, probably in the bedroom.

And he was using that time to plan to cover up and to make sure that that he got rid of the evidence against him, and that at eleven thirty or eleven fifteen, approximately founded, left the scene with the body of his wife in the van. And then he drove a van out to working dump ed, the body. Then he dumped the phone at at mohl road.

Police testified that when they examined the phone, IT was in perfect condition.

There wasn't a damp ge, so to asset, said the summary that actually you come down .

here in place to fall make bride said that after planting the phone and dumping the van at the apartment complex, rummy, the runner, jog a short mile to the yc.

We on on the video tape for the first time, walking into the wide, stretching his arms, acting as if nothing was wrong.

And the D. A reminded the jurors that IT was remi who .

found the phone the next day .

I found IT command down. I'm gona wait for you found IT because you put out there.

Mcbride called a former person of interest to testify rob from england over sky. He told the jury he became alarmed that morning when, like a ghost, jenne disappeared in the middle of their kingdoms of camera game.

SHE left the game, and i'd never been heard from sense. Fifteen minutes later, the gentleman from london sent a text message where to go. That message was never replied to, why is that important? Because he never ever left the game before, SHE never ever left without an explanation.

The da believed that was a key moment that tied his theory together. Rummy y called her playing the game in bed and snapped killing, or right there in the bedroom. Investigators even found a spot of blood on the mattress. And there was that bloodstain on the sweet yt rummy war that day and the DNA.

And that blood spot was also partially rummies, and IT was partially Jennifer, and that was powerful.

But rummy was about to make his case right to the jury. What would they make of his story?

I had a perfect life, had a wife, had a girlfriend, had kids, had everything anyone would want.

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Is there no double in your mind that you will walk out of here a free month?

I'm scared, and my death that digna send me to jail or prison. But here's the thing I have truth of my sad. I did nothing wrong. I did nothing I would never harm my wife.

As rami rams, iran faced life in prison for the murder of his wife, jane, his parents hired attorney gilberto Garcia to defend him.

I like him very much. He was extremely respectful, was very open with me and was very happy that I was there are.

when he came to visit me on the twenty six of december of twenty thirteen, was finally delighted. The end of the .

tunnel in his opening statement, Garcia told the jury the police botched the case from the start.

The police did a very shoddy job here. And why? Because they concentrated on mr.

rta. m. From day one as the suspect. Yes, mrs. Rr, and died. We don't know how he died. We don't know when he died, but he did not do. IT red layer .

chAllenged the state's timely of what happened that morning, highlighting when rummy left the house to go on his run.

Mister, my bride said in, he's opening that he left at eleven thirty. If he left at eleven and thirty, I have the CS case in the world, because IT is impossible, timeless SE to have done that trip in an hour and twelve minutes, drop a body, get out and place a phone, come back and then walk to the wim C. A.

You can do IT asked for the security cameras that had not captured rummy that day. Garces said the tapes were worthless. One video was missing a time stamp. Another had a partially obstructed view.

And I argue to the jury, you can see this person working because there's still another seven, five feet further that the camera doesn't see.

But the defense was centered on rummy himself. Rummy spent two full days on the stand. Video cameras were not allowed to record witness testimony, including his do you have a strategy?

What's strategy? Told the truth.

There is no strategy. Rummy told the jury his wife had changed in the months before he disappeared and that the two had discussed divorcing, but he was added that he had not killed her. A lean fell on comfortable sitting in the gallery, as remi testified. So SHE listened from just outside of the courtroom.

I knew he was lying. You know, I could tell some of thin. He was saying, I needed to hear. I needed to hear how he was talking, how IT was sounds in coming out of his mouth.

The da says romney was a difficult witness. Cross examine the questioning, turned to yelling at some points you were not getting frustrated.

I was frustrated. I would ask what day IT wasn't. He would tell me how much he loved his wife. He was fAiling to follow the rules. And I was doing everything in my control to try make him to comply and do what he was supposed to do. And when I was doing that, I did race my voice.

garc says letting remm y be remmel was part of the plan.

I LED the prosecution yell at them because I wanted the jury to see his human reactions so that they could judge among that aspect and say, perhaps he said this wrong.

but he's honest.

Reporter patt neel was in the courtroom. I just don't think he could help himself. He just that, just how he is.

Honestly, I am really surprised, he testified. I can understand why he did and only heard himself. Rumney was the defense only witness. In his closing arguments, Garcia addressed ramy's tendency to talk too much around.

i'm testified, oh my goodness, if I would had a panda, I would have hidden in the head with IT. I was so frustrated because, you know, he's not the flow witness that every lawyer dreams of. He was eager to tell more than he had to buy the questions I understood him. You can judge him.

And he also acknowledged that he himself had wondered about rummy's guilty, innocence possible .

that he could have done that. I asked myself that question on million times. Is IT possible when we could have done IT? That's not enough. Suspicion is not enough. What i'm trying to say to the jury at that point is i've judged them. I've asked myself a million times, could I have done this? And the reason why I ask myself is because I could not come to a conclusion.

How do you want people to see you? Who are you?

I am, I am, I am. I'm never concerned. I always, you tell the kids, well told the kids specified the kids don't worry about what people think you are, who you think that the only people that you should be concerned about, or the people that love you, the family, you're true, close his friends one else, forget about IT anyone that knows me.

I'm a great father. I was also a really good husband. Yes, each year of my wife, however, I was a great father. He is a .

circumstantial case. Holy .

circumstantial.

do you worry about motive and how the jury will feel about motive? The affair?

People have affairs all the time, and they wind up killing their lives. IT is what IT is. I don't know what IT is. I didn't do anything. Here's the thing.

If I had done anything to my wife, what i've gone out and try and find her phone, would I try and help and answer every question to the police? I actually a loyd up right off the bat. You have to remember, my life was absolutely fantastic. Absolutely fantastic .

living with the secret.

Okay.

that isn't always fantastic. No.

no. Here's a single might be a secret. But in regards to geni, splinting apart and whatever happened, IT was always there. I mean, it's not like a bad thing. You had a plan.

absolutely. Did you have a plan to kill your wife? Course not. Is this all about romney? Romney wanted to have the life he wanted.

Wow, that's where you're absolutely wrong. I had a perfect life, had a wife, had a girlfriend, have kids, have everything anyone would want. The worst thing that ever happening is jane missing absolutely worst thing.

IT was one of the oldest defenses we've heard from a murder suspect. He's a fair, made them too happy to kill. And yet his lawyer seem .

to agree what could trigger a man to kill his wife the morning after he's back with his girlfriend. Apparently they had sexual relations, so that should have been hormonally good for him. You heard a lot of stuff about sexual activity.

Does that make a man a killer? And is that evidence of intent to kill your wife? On the morning after you have been with your girlfriend, you were happy as a pig mud ramy's .

fate was now in the jurors hands. How would they judge the man who says he doesn't care what anyone thinks?

After three weeks of trial, the jurors got the case against rami. Rami ran, did you think he was .

going to get off?

I was worried. Why were you worried?

Because at that point, I believed he hurt her.

What do you think happened that day when you run IT through your mind?

He knew I was back home and he was angry. And I think jen had decided that are moving on to, and I think he just couldn't handle IT. I just think he just snapped.

After just three hours averted with respect to count one of the entire ment charging the crime murder in the second degree, how do you find the defendant yelling or not yellow.

you can defend a building.

I had so many emotions I can even tell you IT was. Emotion overload.

James from treasa was relieved but heart broken. He took her away from everyone. SHE was just the nicest, caring person I think that I ever met.

SHE was just SHE was nice to everyone at the time. Glad was almost twelve years old. He and his sisters didn't even get the news from a family member.

My singing I were seeing at their pest and he told us. And we just went back to the sam .

old saml just .

just living.

So you learned about your dad's guilty verdict from the therapist.

Yeah.

the judge sentenced rumney to twenty five years to life.

We just knew we wouldn't see my dad for a long time.

Did you feel like in a way, both of your parents have died?

Yeah, IT was you lose any sense of what a Normal house feels like?

And his sister stayed in new berlin, living with Jones parents.

My grandparents are on the older side. They didn't know what to buy me for Christmas. They didn't know what to feed me. They they try, but you know it's rough. And especially being of the older generation, you know, they are they're so out of touch with the problems that, you know i'm going .

face did your grandparents ever say anything negative about your dad or say, you know, your dad did this and we don't want you to talk to him or did they .

try to stay out of IT? My granda never stayed out of IT entirely. My grandma had been very verbal on facebook prior to pressing on my dad.

Are you allowed to go see him in prison?

No, no.

you're not. So your grandparents are keeping you from him.

yeah. And there wasn't really talk of going to see him.

Did you think maybe my dad did this?

I didn't know an entertain ideas. You know, my siblings is never talked about IT. We didn't watch daytime or know about anything in the case. We simply just lived in the world that IT happened and didn't bother thinking about IT.

But glenn says that as they got older, they did talk about IT more. And once he turned eighteen, he decided to see his dad in prison. Did your dad say anything to you like I didn't do this. You, i'm wrongfully accused?

Yes, yes, he did. And I mean.

I believe him, glen says his dad told him his defense attorney, gilberto gara, did a terrible .

job done on stand. He realize his lawyer had no idea what to do and had no witnesses to call the stance, so he had no representation.

Glen went on to college studying to become an engineer. Well, he continued to believe his dad was innocent. Eee remained convinced of his guilt. SHE was struggling to put her life .

back together. My girls need the money back. I know that generate miss kids that can happen.

And I sometimes think to my, why should I be happy? Why should I be happy when I can move forward? I can move on. but.

Her kids don't have mom. Do you wish you would never met him?

I do. I feel like honestly. If I hadn't walked into their lives, even for girls outs, they would still be together.

The kill, the regret. The hard ache. Is overwhelming and it's it's hard to not think of every second of every day.

What's your biggest regret in all of us?

My affair, what I did to jan. absolutely. And her family I heard her family, we know and you think yourself is over, but is IT it's not we're gonna over.

IT certainly wasn't over for ramming outside the prison walls. His dad was using his life savings to help his son. He hired new defense attorneys who began working on .

an appeal as we dug into this. This first trial was a, in my opinion, a complete joke.

Follow the evidence, you will see IT for yourself. It's to say what's happen.

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When remi rams around first SAT down with us just before his conviction, he seemed confident.

I have truth of my sad. I always have. I did nothing wrong. I did nothing.

And he gashed about his attorney, gilberto caria.

My itunes has been ready forever, and we've been ready, been ready.

Garcia also seemed confident despite the chAllenges they faced.

All these cases are difficult. If someone says by any chance that they're not, they don't know what to talking about. But to be quite Frank, I was very, very positive. And that robbed off on him.

But this is romney. After his conviction.

he was an idiot. Everybody knows that. Everybody saw that.

It's no surprise to hear a convicted killer. Bad mouth is attorney. But maybe this time, this convict, at a point.

there is no way this gentlemen had enough knowledge to be able to represent somebody on a murder charge.

Malicious sports. And David hemmed, became ramming s appeals atterley in twenty eighteen. They were alarmed by gilberto Garcia and experience.

IT was kind of unclear what type of law he practiced, what sorts of cases he handled. IT was kind of all over the place.

Garcia didn't have a legal special team. He mostly handled civil matters, including bankrupcy and divorce. They learned that he had never tried a single murder case. In fact, he'd only tried one criminal cases entire career, but withdrew before IT finished telling the judge he wasn't competent enough to defend his client.

I think the rams trans stumbled upon somebody who was a very good salesman, right? He looked the part, he dressed the part, he talked the part. And they don't know enough to realize that he actually didn't know anything that he was talking about.

The two attorneys poured over the trial record as well as the case file. That's when they discovered just how unprepared remise lawyer had been. They say IT look like he was learning criminal laws. He went along printing out information from google. Is he google specific things about this case or he's just googling general things about forensic.

general things about .

forensic general basic concepts, almost like wikipedia style articles?

Yeah, there was one on the basics of DNA.

This is a defendants worse nightmare. If you have an attorney whose literally having to google basic things about murder.

yes, I I would hope is every defendants for the nights.

And when IT came across examining witnesses, the new attorney say Garcias performance proved even further. Or just how ill equipped was to handle ramy's case.

I mean, one of the most amazing things that I thought I was like, well, this guy really knows nothing about this case. He's in week two of a murder trial, and he's asking questions, almost like he needs them to provide him with the answer because he doesn't know IT cops would .

come and testify and he d say, alright, tell me everything you did in this case. At one point he ask club, why do you think he's guilty? Cup, like, well, this is a very basic things you do.

Is this like somebody watching long order and then thinking they can go and try a murder .

case or date line? It's like somebody was an avid date line fan, all the sun, and thinking, okay, i'm going to handle this four week long meter trial.

Remy's family paid Garcia more than one hundred thousand dollars. They say much of IT was supposed to be spent on expert witnesses.

We were able to prove that at zero point throughout the entire period of time that he represented rii, did he ever have a single conversation with a single expert?

He didn't call any experts to testify. And, according to hammond, didn't prepare romney for the most important moment of his life.

And then he puts reme understand, doesn't have a single conversation wit them about the case.

He said, you know, remy, you're a very spontaneous person if you are propt is going to come across robotic, not genuine. We don't want that. We don't want you propt.

Here's a guy who loves to talk. He's got no direction. The questions are poorly framed. And so on a cross examination, it's a complete disaster.

And then there was scarce a as closing argument.

I asked myself that question I will times, is that possible reme could have done in ramy's new .

lawyer said the nearly two hours sumac was confusing and ineffective.

We're going to paint this red and IT will be read at the end if there is a reasonable hypos little. But let's move on. I am not gonna go there. These little thing. Can be a killer.

According to hammond's sports, the incompetence added up to an unfair trial. They presented what they learned about Garcia to the court in what's known as a four forty motion, hoping to get ramy's conviction reversed.

It's very rare that four forty emotions .

are actually granted but with this case, as with rumney rams around himself, you can never quite predict what will happen next.

There's no words for i've never seen anything like that.

Rummy rams ran, waited behind bars for years as his appeal wounded its way through the new york courts. The petition is new attorneys filed in twenty nineteen was a long shot, but they were confident.

We knew we were going .

to so obvious .

they were right. A judge found that ram's attorney, gilberto Garcia, was incompetent and granted rummy a new trial. I was also centered by the new jersey office of attorney ethics for presenting his experience to the rams around family. And while he defended his reputation at a hearing for rummies appeal, Garcia told date line he respects the judges decision to grant a new trial.

I always had faith would to happen.

I mean, there's two different things. There's one not getting a fair trial, but someone could still be guilty and not get a fair trial.

Yeah, I just don't think he did. I don't even think the alien thing would have ever caused him to do any sort of harm to my mom. I think I would have been highly more likely for my mom to have just left the house.

But for any violence to occurs, insane. I still don't see how murder would have been a solution. Any problem?

There was a new prosecutor on the case, ben bergman. On one point, he agreed with the defense. You're on the other side of rummy rams ran as the the acting prosecutor here. But did you agree that he should have a new trial based on what you saw?

Yeah, no double. I don't think i've ever seen or have heard of the sort of effectiveness that occurred in this case.

Still, that didn't mean he believed romney was innocent. How certain were you that rami rami ran killed his wife?

Now on my mind.

the new prosecutor got up to speed on all the evidence. He also went looking for more.

We get a lot of analysis on computers, phones and things like that. And we got some good information.

turned out that very morning then disappeared. SHE had left these three voice mails for rob, her U. K.

Gaming friend. Stop now. So the voice smell isn't too long and goes through what was on the voice?

Meles to b basic, pleasant trees. How are you doing?

I got up and brush my teeth, brush my hair.

talked about letting your dog out. A zero mention of i'm leaving the house to go shopping today. Zero mention of that.

The Youngest one one lost another tooth at school yesterday. I think it's seventh or eight, but uh, five or six teeth in last less than a week. In those .

three messages you get the clear picture. SHE no intention of leaving in the house that day.

So you don't believe he was ever going to the Carole mall in sarcus.

No bergmann .

believe that drives a hole. Write through rumney story about that day, but the prosecutor faced a new obstacle for the retrial. The judge was not going to allow rob to testify remotely from the U.

K. And rob refused to fly to the us. Was that a big deal to your prosecution? Not having him?

But I was huge because, you know there was a very tight timing that we were using.

Another witness, lu ent, Richard cob, the lead investigator, passed away from a heart attack. He was only fifty three.

The community was shocked when they heard of his passing.

IT was shocking for us as well to hear this news, and also a blow to your investigation, to your before this trial yeah.

losing your lead investigator. A marter case is never a good thing ever.

also not good for the state's case. In one of remy's appeals, a judge found that the original prosecutor mischaracterized the significance of that blood on romney swisher .

t there was blood on a switcher, but there is no way scientifically to tell whose that is, because IT was a mixture. So I could have an jeans DNA, and his blood could have an her blood, and he is DNA. Could that know? You just don't know. So that really wasn't of any value.

So bergman wouldn't use IT for the retrial, but he hoped to use rummy's own words against him, specifically something he .

told me when you were interviewing him. There comes a point where you ask him some question about, you know, he wasn't having a good life, for things weren't going well for him.

I had a perfect life, had a wife, had a girlfriend, have kids, have everything anyone would want.

IT was very cold. That's not the reaction of someone who's being falsely accused.

Meanwhile, remy's attorneys were making their own preparations. They thought the state's timeline didn't make sense, and they talked to a witness who seem to contradict IT. He said he saw someone driving genes van hours later that afternoon.

He could point to precisely where I was driving. He knew almost exactly what time a day this was on december eleven there was around five thirty pm well after this fan is allegedly dropped the apartments when rimm is demonstrably at home and he says the van pulls over, its very suspicious and IT was a burnt orange Christoper town and country van did .

that witness see someone else driving the van that they believe was not rumney?

He could not make out who was in the car, but reme demonstrably couldn't been driving the van. He at at calling the police. Mister Garcia was well aware of this witness, but that witness was never called .

hammond sports believe that could mean the real killer, not rumney, without dumping the body, the phone and the van. And they had one more new discovery, a potentially huge one. They hire a DNA experts to review the forensic reports. And SHE found this .

under Jennifer and sands fingernails was .

male DNA IT was a partial profile of male DNA. The expert said IT was not enough to conclusively identify a person, but he could say, I did not come from ramming. That's a mysterious element to this.

IT is a mysterious element because if you know anything about DNA under fingernails, most experts will testify that IT has to be it's not from a handshake, right? It's not for me touching daves leg quickly. It's from some sort of you actual contact.

contact like a struggle between a victim and an attacker.

Combine another man's DNA under her fingers with the van being driven by someone else. IT suddenly was a very interesting defense. The second time around A.

Interesting is one way to describe what happened next.

I have never done.

I have never even talking about you.

Have no idea have you ever been in prison? In is hilarious.

Rummy rams around remained behind bars even after he won an appeal granting him a new trial. We spoke over zoom from the county jail.

One thing about me, i'm straight forward. I tell IT like IT is and .

like our last interview, he had plenty to say about his innocence you feel you're wrongfully accused.

I've always been, always been wrongly ly accused and that's the topic iceberg. And you might think that i'm arrogant or this or that I have nothing to hide. I've always told the truth. I'm a classic over share. And guess what, in all of my interviews with the cops and everything else, i've never said anything to incriminate myself.

He also wanted to talk about his first trial.

what convicted me, where people and their words, people and their lives, especially the cops.

And he had harsh words for his own defensive ney, what would you say to gilberto Garcia?

N bag? You're a scum bag. He knows his gung.

Gilberto Garcia had something to say about his former client, too. He now tells deadline he believed grammy, I was guilty from day one. I want to ask you something from our first interview, which was a memorable moment for a lot of people.

You said, I had the perfect life. I had a wife, I had a girlfriend. I had the kids. You said, your life was fantastic, if any, gret is the .

truth. My life was perfect, had a great life period. great.

So you have been reflected on the fact that you had another woman and that that LED to all of this.

It's not, I had another woman. What a lot of people didn't understand. And I didn't want to say when I interviewed with you originally, we had three stems.

IT was my wife, I lean and myself. There is no issues. And IT was going on for a while.

That was a brand new claim. I insists it's not true. And curiously, rummy never told the police about IT during the investigation. Your life is on the line and you're not onna reveal .

that there's no need. Once when I tell you from the beginning what did on me nothing because I didn't do anything.

let me then told me this. How is that been for you sitting in a cell day after day as you? You clearly have so much bottled up. Is this all you think .

about all day long? Prison is easy, you understand. They're so much freedom in prison IT.

It's crazy to say i'm a guy. Mister corporate america, josh Robin company, american express IBM. Prison is freedom. Look, I have never done.

I have talking about you .

have no idea. Have you ever been in prison? IT is hilarious.

You can get cell phones. You can get anything you want in prison. If you are looking forward.

you're trying to say you're a, you're trying to say you a shark in prison.

No, not me. Absolutely not. I'm time you prisons a joke. Prison has a lot of freedom. You can get basically anything you want.

You can get anything you wanted. Accept your freedom.

Do you know that what freedom is in there? There's so much freedom like you wouldn't believe IT is insane.

One of the problems people had with your interview last time was that they felt like you were arrogant and you were the way you were talking. IT was like IT was like you didn't care or you didn't care about your wife. And now here you are saying that your mr. Corporate america, what is easy and use sound? Gant gant .

is the .

truth. ruby. I forgot how much energy you is.

not energy. Look, i'm mister marathon. Bottom line, I am innocent. I've always been innocent.

Would the next jury agree? Turns out we will never know.

I think there was chAllenges from both sides. I think we had a difficult job. It's very hard to reinvestigate a case that's ten years old, but is also extremely difficult to prosecute case that's ten years old.

So we're gearing up for trial, and we started talking about plea offers. At one point, the defense approached me asking if I would take a plea or accept a plea. And I said, I listen. I'll talk to the parents about IT. I'll go up today.

Jane parents made clear what was important to them.

We met with the parents and went over the process and cons, and they wanted him to go into that courtroom and say that he was guilty.

Rummy agreed to do just that. In october twenty twenty three, he pleaded guilty to a reduce charge of manslaughter. There would be no second trial.

he admitted to killing his wife, the mother of those kids.

Instead of possibly spending the rest of his life in prison, remi was sentenced to twenty two years. But with time served, his attorneys expect it'll serve less than half.

So he'll be out of prison. I believe somewhere around eight .

and a half years there will be people watching this who will feel like what he's killed his wife and that's IT. That's all he has left .

yeah no doubt you know and I get that, but there's a chance we could want to try and we've lost. Then there's no more time he gets. If I have the parents of a victim, a murder victim, who are saying to me that we, you, we agree with this and that brings with them some peace. There has a lot .

of value with this guilty plea. Are you now saying .

that you killed your wife?

Did you? The answer is told the guilty in court. He is anything.

but I am not guilty. I am innocent.

You have a fantastic new defense team. Why not try to clear your name?

How would you do with this jury? Are you kidding me?

Rummy says he would rather spend eight more years in prison for a crime he didn't commit, then take his chances with a legal system. He doesn't trust the .

jury pools are retaining. That's just fact.

What comes next for you when you get out? You're gonna to clear your name. Are you gonna end my name?

I'm not worried about that. Thanks to you folks. Find out whose DNA I need my wife fingernails.

and that will. That is certainly a promise that I cannot make. Remy sun glen has always believed his dad was innocent and supported the decision to take a guilty plea instead of risking life in prison. Do you think about the future when your dad gets out, which will be within this the next decade?

Not really um I don't know what my life will be. Um you know I graduate with bachelors and mechanical engineering eight years. As a lot of the time, I can't bother to imagine what life will be like. I just have to make you now .

alan told us that even all these years later, thinking about remi and what happened still feels like a nightmare SHE can't wake up from. But sh'll also never stop thinking about her friend jane, how do you want jam to be .

remembered as a beautiful woman that he was kind and loving, would do anything for anyone. And SHE did those things for me.

Some people are going, na, remember you as being the worst kind of friend to john.

You know, you can't take back what you've done. But what we shared as friends, I will always hold close to my heart. Our talks and the things we did.

And if you had have gotten that second chance to talk to her.

what would you've .

told her?

So very sorry. So very sorry.

What do you miss most about your mom?

I mean, I miss everything about her. You know, I I wish you could be here for my sisters, my Younger sister, especially because I see my mom and her so much.

That's all for this edition of deadline and check out our talking date line podcast. Andrew accounting and josh makers will go behind the scenes of tonight's episode available wednesday in the date line feed. Wherever you get your podcast, we'll see you again sunday at ten, nine central. I'm letter hold for all of us at nbc news. Good night.

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