546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
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Citizens, the National Convention, trusting in your courage, hereby accepts your oaths of loyalty. The liberty of your homeland will be the reward for your efforts. And while you defend your liberty with the force of your arms, the National Convention will defend it by the force of the laws. The monarchy is hereby abolished.

So that Dominic was yet another person shouting loudly, one of many in our ongoing history of the French Revolution. And it was specifically Jérôme Pétillant, who was president of the National Convention on the 21st of September 1792. And obviously, the abolition of the French monarchy after centuries and centuries and centuries. This is a seismic moment, isn't it, in the history of France, but also overall.

of Europe. It's a massive moment, Tom, and I think the only voice that really is appropriate to the moment is the one you did there.

I mean, because I detected more than a hint of our old friend, Jeremy Corbyn. Is that right? Yes, because I think that Jeremy Corbyn, he would definitely be on the side of abolishing the monarchy had he been in the French Revolution. I think he probably regrets that he wasn't part of the French Revolution. Yes, I imagine that is. But he's always got Cable Street, hasn't he? So yes, this is a massive moment in French and European history, isn't it? Because the French monarchy, I guess, one of the oldest in Europe.

If you take it back to Clovis, who we talked about just before Christmas, didn't we? So, yeah, I mean, that's the end of that story. Yes, it is. So it sends shockwaves across Europe.

We will be talking about what it means. And of course, we were talking about what it means for Louis XVI. And we'll get to his story in our final episode. Nothing good. Nothing good. But before we get to the moment when they actually do abolish the monarchy, we should set the scene a little bit, Tom. We love setting the scene on this podcast. Well, we did in the previous episode. We set it in the context of the role of women, didn't we? But shall we go back to the lads? What are the lads up to? Let's set it in the context of Prussians and cannons. Oh, Prussians.

So the situation in Paris, people will remember from the last episode, but one Paris is preparing for an attack. There are church bells ringing. There are cannons on the river Seine that are calling people to prepare for war. The streets are packed with volunteers who are streaming towards the gates of the city to the front and

People are pulling down the grills of churches. They're digging up their coffins to use as lead for musket shots. There are everyday contingents of troops marching through the National Assembly, singing patriotic songs and shouting slogans and stuff. So it's all excitement. Jeremy Corbyn would actually have loved it. But it's not a Sandbrook vibe, is it? Not really a Sandbrook vibe, I would say.

Although slightly more Sandbrookian, somewhere out there. Yes, the doer defenders of reaction. Yes, the woods and valleys to the east. My people are the Prussians. The Duke of Brunswick, the real hero of this story.

So on the 20th of September, so that's the day before the reading that you began with, the new national convention meets for the first time. Now, some listeners, if they've made it all the way through the series, may be like, I've lost track of all the different assemblies and whatnot. So if you remember, there had been the stormy, the Tuileries in August. And since then, France has been in political limbo and they have basically summoned yet another political

semi-constituent assembly. This one has unlimited powers to remake the nation and it is by far the most democratic yet. So all men over the age of 21 except for servants can vote. Because we talked about that last time and you said that you weren't in favour of it. Yeah, I don't agree with it at all. I mean, I'm with the Duke of Brunswick on this. I think it's a dangerous innovation.

Failed experiment. Yes, exactly. So it's a very complicated electoral system, a series of electors and kind of almost like an electoral college, and then they choose the 749 deputies. But as you said, Tom, the turnout is really poor. So in some places it might be a fifth, but generally it's probably one in 10. And the reason for that, I think, is...

there's a war on so it's you know people have got other things in their mind but it's also harvest time um so in the countryside people have definitely got other priorities and they actually a lot of people are now completely confused they're probably even more confused than listeners to the podcast they have no idea what's going on they they don't know who anybody is yeah well yes exactly and also on top of that

There's quite a lot of intimidation, isn't there? There is. That's another aspect to it. Of course. Remember we did that episode about mad elections in Britain where people being carried on chairs and whatnot and lots of throwing of cats. Well, similarly in France...

For the national convention, the voting is public and it is oral. You vote, you know, you say who you want to vote for. So if you want to vote in favour of a royalist party, you're basically standing up and saying, I am a reactionary traitor to La Patrie in front of all your fellow villagers. I mean, it's not... Who are like holding clubs and stuff and sort of leering... Dead cats at the ready. Yeah, leering at you in a sinister way. So clearly a lot of people just don't want to turn out. So...

In Paris, the voting has coincided with the September massacres. That's what we began this little kind of mini-series with. So the atmosphere is very grim because as people are voting, there is the kind of… Stepping over corpses. Right, the dull sound of hacking coming from inside the walls of the converted convent just down the road. So what is worse, the second round of voting is held at the Jacobin Club.

So if you are a royalist or reactionary, this is not the ideal place to go and to sort of pin your colours to the mast. And that round of voting, the Jacquemin Club, they've got a lot of kind of electors, but they start by agreeing that they'll purge all electors who are foyants, who are moderates, or who are royalists. So 200 electors are kicked out, there's 800 left, and they vote for 24 deputies. And of those deputies...

A lot of those are very big revolutionary names. So the top of the list, number one, their top choice for Paris is Robespierre. And then you've got people like Danton, Desmoulins, Santerre, the butcher, the sans-culottes who'd led the attack on the Tuileries, Marat for the first time, this firebrand radical journalist. He is going to have a seat in the convention. So there

There will be a place for the most extreme, the most violent, the most paranoid revolutionary sentiments. And there's a place, isn't there, for the worst man in the entire history of the French Revolution? Yeah. The erstwhile Duke of Orléans.

the cousin of Louis XVI, Philip Egalité. I mean, we've talked about this before. This is Prince Harry calling himself Harry Diversity or something, renaming himself. And actually... No, Harry Equity. Harry Equity, yeah. While living in his palace. Yeah, that's what he'd call himself. Yeah, Harry Equity. Anyway, so everybody goes to the Tuileries on the 20th of September to register, and they do so in an atmosphere of apocalyptic dread.

Because they know that 140 miles away, the Prussians are there and that their troops, their Francis troops, have basically caught up with the Prussians. And the Duke of Brunswick, just to remind people, has said that he is going to inflict a biblical fate on Paris. He has, yeah. A vengeance which will be forever remembered, or words to that effect. So yes. Now of these guys who've turned up to register...

About half of them are lawyers. We've got a lot of lawyers who are members of Arrested History Club, so they will love all this. They will say this is a very good sign. There's also loads of doctors, loads of civil servants, loads of actors, journalists, lawyers.

They're very young by and large. About half of them are under 40. About a quarter of them are under 35. The younger they are, the more committed and more militant they are by and large. So, you know, these aren't, a lot of them have got experience in kind of local governments and stuff, but these aren't incredibly seasoned people. They are,

Excited and excitable, I think it's fair to say. Kind of quite a student union vibe. Definitely. I mean, this is the birth of the student union, really, isn't it? I think it probably is, yeah. Motions, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, they love it. And they're there all night, you know, just endlessly arguing and showing off in that student union. And drinking. Exactly. Next.

Next day, 21st of September, they assemble at the riding school, the Manège, for their first proper session. And this is the bit that you started with, Jérôme Pétillon, because they've come straight to the central question. Let's reboot France, and it must be a republic. There's an actor, of course, called Colo de Bois. He ends up on the Committee of Public Safety later on. He says, let's just abolish the monarchy right away. No need for referendums and all that stuff. Let's just go for it.

Some of the deputies say, really? No, no, you wouldn't let the people have a say on this? Such a massive question. And then the Bishop of Blois. So this is an interesting thing because, again, it complicates the slightly sort of stereotypical sense of the French Revolution. This is a bishop, Henri Gregoire, who says, kings are in the moral world what monsters are in the physical world. Their courts are the workshops of crime and the lairs of tyrants. In other words,

No referendum. Let's just get rid. And they vote. And then, of course, as so often happens in these kinds of scenarios, very student union,

Once people work out which way the wind is blowing, they all pile in. Yeah, they all pile in. So they make the vote unanimous. They all start shouting, vive la nation. They're all terribly excited. The world has started again. But Dominic, just to pick up one thing that is intriguing, and it's a kind of absence, is that there isn't a kind of formal proclamation of freedom.

the Republic. There's no official decree kind of installing it. And I just mentioned that because in the next episode, when we come to the trial of the King, I think that is significant. And I think that that is something that frames what will happen with the trial and the execution of the King. Because although it is a new beginning, although they've had the vote, it's kind of, they know what they're getting rid of, but they don't yet know what they're establishing. Yeah, I think that's a very fair point, actually, that there is a sense of

There's a sense of historical time beginning again, but they don't really know what they all want because I suppose, Tom, they don't all want the same thing as we shall see in this episode. So if you enjoy political factionalism, this is definitely the rest is history episode for you. Anyway, one of the interesting things about the French Revolution that we've talked about so much is the way it faces two ways. On the one hand, they're looking back to the Roman Republic, as you have described so many times. And on the other hand, they're genuinely thinking this is not just a whole new chapter, but it's basically a new volume.

So they say from September the 20th, all state documents must bear the date year one of the French Republic. So this is where we get the beginning of the sort of French revolutionary calendar, the numbering system, year one, year two, and so on and so forth.

But of course, whether they actually get beyond year one is not in their hands. It depends on events out on the battlefield. So let us now, let us leave Paris. Turn the camera. Turn the camera. Exactly. You know how my mind works. So...

Remember where we got to. The Prussians have been marching all the way west from the border. They've got to the Argonne Forest. That's 130 or so miles away from Paris. It's pouring with rain. Very Agincourt scenes, Tom. There's only one man who can stop them.

And that man is a guy called General Charles-Francois Dumouriez. So listeners may remember, he's this kind of grizzled ex-secret agent, ex-Seven Years' War veteran who was foreign minister under the Girondins. He got France into this mess in the first place. And basically, he's in charge of the Eastern Front. He really wanted to – he loves fighting Belgians. He loves attacking Belgium. That's his dream.

He wants to liberate Belgium. But the convention has basically said, forget about Belgium. There are a load of Prussians advancing on Paris. Get to the Valley of the Marne and stop them.

There's a lot of maneuvering and faffing around. Do you want to go into detail about that? Do you know what? I could, but I won't because I don't want to try the patience of our less military-minded listeners. How many divisions are there on both sides? Loads. Couldn't be more.

So to cut a very long story short, the two armies end up faffing around and maneuvering. And basically, they end up on the wrong side of each other. So the Prussians are nearest Paris. And Dumouriez is behind them with his back against the Argonne forest. Now, the Duke of Brunswick could just ignore Dumouriez. He could have just dashed on, couldn't he, to Paris? He could. But he doesn't want to do that because that would mean Dumouriez could cut his supply lines, basically cut him off from the German states.

And his men are very muddy and it's pouring rain. They're knackered. They're short of food. They're ravaged by illness. It feels a little bit Henry V before Agincourt. And he says, right, what we'll do is we'll stop here. We'll turn. We'll finish off Dumouriez and then we can secure our supply lines and then we can go on to Paris. Dumouriez is massively outnumbered, but very good news for him. So on the 19th, the day before the national convention, they meet to register.

He is reinforced by a second French army under General Kellerman. Who has a German name. He has a German name. Very confusing. Yeah, that is confusing. So...

These troops that they have, by the way, everybody always thinks this is a great victory for kind of people in red bonnets shouting about the revolution. But it's not, is it? They're all basically royalist officers and seasoned veterans and so on. They are. They are. These are like regular troops. And they also have a brilliant kind of new cannon. They do indeed. They have a very exciting new cannon. We love military technology on this podcast.

They have new lightweight cannons that were specially designed after the French had shamed themselves in the Seven Years' War. It's Britain. Exactly. They'd lost to everybody, hadn't they? It'd been a kind of world war. They'd been fighting the Prussians or whatever. So on the 20th, so this is the day that the National Convention were registering.

On the 20th, it's a misty, foggy morning. Kellerman, outside this windmill outside the village of Valmy, he lines up his men on this ridge and he's got his lovely lightweight cannons that he's very keen to show off. The Prussians start firing with their cannons. Kellerman fires back with his. There's hundreds of guns blazing away through the fog.

Now, do you know who was fighting for the Prussians? I do. It was Goethe, the great German writer, the greatest German writer. Germany's top writer, Goethe. He was fighting with his patron, who was Grand Duke Karl Augustus Sachs Weimar. Was he actually fighting? I always wondered about that because I thought he'd just kind of, you know, he'd gone in the train and was writing a poem. Well, this is the thing. I think there's no evidence, I think, of him actually shooting anybody. I can't imagine him in a uniform.

That seems very odd. He must have been wearing uniform, though, because as we will discover, he's exchanging banter with the lads of the battalion and stuff. Goethe said, I mean, you expect great prose from a great writer, don't you? Do you know what he said? The earth literally trembled. It was a clash of titans. France, a land of contrasts.

Anyway, the earth is literally trembling. Goethe can't believe it. What scenes. This goes on for hours and hours and hours. Then the Prussians eventually say, okay, enough. We've definitely softened the French up now. And Brunswick sends his infantry advancing in these kind of long lines, blue uniforms. They're advancing up the hill. They're convinced that the French are about to collapse.

But no, General Kellerman takes off his hat with its trickler cockade and he lifts it up on his sword and he shouts, Vive la Nation! And then the French will start singing the Satyra, one of their revolutionary songs. But interestingly, not the Marseillaise, which apparently there's no evidence that they sang that. So that may be another pointer to the fact that these are not...

the kind of the radicals, the cutting edge revolutionaries as yet. Right, exactly. I think the revolutionaries would love to rewrite this. This is Sankulot singing the Marseillaise. And indeed they do in subsequent years, but that's not true at all. So they're blasting away. The Prussians keep coming. The Prussians can't believe the French are so full of vim and vigor. And then basically the Prussians waver and Brunswick says, call them back, call them, you know, enough.

And the French, against all the odds and all expectations, because they performed so abysmally at the beginning of the war, they haven't quite won, but they have survived to fight another day. So it's kind of scraping a result in the final match of a group round in the World Cup. Kind of a bit like that. I think it is a bit like that. But it's the draw that you need that keeps you alive in the group, I think is what it is. But that's...

Because it's come unexpectedly. It's fated as a great victory. It's fated as a great victory. Exactly. That's exactly what it is. The Prussians actually have killed more Frenchmen than the French have killed Prussians. But for the first time, the Prussians have been stopped. They haven't been able to dislodge the French. And their reactions to the two sides could not be more different. So the Prussians are absolutely gutted. They can't believe it.

doesn't girter he makes a famous comment uh in a very grandiloquent way saying that this is what is it something like gentlemen you have witnessed the the dawning of a new age i felt you were gearing up to do him as jeremy corbyn there which would have been a shame so girter says there's a wonderful scene it's the great vanity of great writers he says they all sat alone around this fire they're already miserable they couldn't meet each other's eye and he says um

Everybody asked me what I thought about the events of the day as, and I quote, my little sayings had often interested or amused our little company. And you think, what an insufferable bore he must have been to all the other soldiers. So he said to everybody, from this place and from this day forth commences a new era in the world's history. And you can all say you are present at its birth.

Now, shall I tell you something? I don't believe he did say that. I think that's far too good to be true. And he writes this a considerable time afterwards. So I'm suspicious of Goethe here. I think he's playing fast and loose with the facts. He's too good a liar. That's what writers do, Dominic. It is. It is what they do. Anyway, for the French, this is massive. It's

So there's a peasant soldier who writes to his father and he says, "We've been electrified with a new courage that will make despots tremble. Oh, liberty! Oh, equality! Oh, my country!" What a wonderful transformation. It's like listening to Theo. I mean, if peasants are writing like that after the battle, then maybe Goethe is saying that kind of thing. Maybe, Tom. I mean, maybe they're all massive effusions. They all feel that this is Titanic. I don't know. Yeah, no, fair. That's fair.

So lots of people say, gosh, this is a tremendous victory for the new republic, for our revolutionary virtue. And of course, when the news reaches the convention, they're all waving their hats in the air and delighted. And they say, absolutely brilliant. History has begun again. It is a new chapter in the story of the human race. And Dominic, I've got a question, which is that the news...

reaches Paris after the monarchy has been abolished, is there a feeling that this victory has been won because France is now a republic? Do you think there's something like that? Yeah. We've got rid of the king and the traitors. And immediately we start winning. Yeah. As soon as we took those blokes into the courtyards of various prisons and dispensed summary justice, and as soon as we locked the king up in the temple fortress, surprise, surprise, we start winning battles. You know?

quadrat demonstrandum, the king was a traitor and was undermining the war efforts. And that is what happened with the first democracy when Athens establishes its democracy having thrown out its tyrants. They immediately start winning battles and presumably people would have been aware of this

Maybe this is an ironclad law of history, Tom. Or maybe it's just a coincidence. Anyway. Well, it is because they actually win the battle before the proclamation of the Republic, right? Yeah. Well, it's not that they don't really win the battle. It's just a draw. So you would think that this would fill them all with great...

you know, Bonhomie sense of harmony. Yeah. Come on, let's bury that into ideological hatchet and work together for the common good. You would be wrong because actually from the beginning, I know you wouldn't be wrong, Tom. I know, you know, that what's going to happen is,

The convention is riven by the most unbelievable faction fighting. So basically there are three blocks, and maybe we don't need to spend an eternity discussing them, but a little bit of context. First of all, you have Brissot and the Girondins.

So if you remember, these are not really a Parisian party. They're a party of the kind of big provincial cities like Bordeaux. Because that's where Gironde comes from, isn't it? It's the northern bank. Exactly. They're all hanging around having dinner with Madame Roland in her apartment and swapping witty aphorisms. And they've basically got about 150 deputies in the convention that will always support them. And they can call on some independents to give them a majority.

Then you have the great mass of people who are kind of in the middle. They are called the, they're either called the Marsh, which seems a very, you know, it's not very, I wouldn't want to be part of the Marsh. What's that? Centrist ads. Oh, right. Okay. Very good. Yeah. Well, they're not really centrist ads either because everybody's now on the left.

but they are the marsh or the plain, people call them, because they sit in the middle of the hall. And they basically, you know, they can lean one way or the other, but at this point, they are generally swayed by the Girondins. And then you have the radicals on the far left. They're called the mountain, the montagnards, and they sit high up in the left of the hall, hence the mountain. There's about 200 of them, 150 to 200. They're very Parisian.

Robespierre, Danton, Marat. All the famous guys, the ones that people have heard of. They dominate the Jacobin Club now because the Girondins don't bother turning up to it. And they also appeal to two groups. Very young deputies are much more likely to be Montagnard. They're likely to be kind of more impatient, more ambitious, more radical. And this is the first manifestation of a sense that runs right the way up to the present day that the young are...

inclined to back more radical solutions on the left, right? I mean, this is the first manifestation of it. I think that's absolutely right. They also appeal to deputies, interestingly, who come from very isolated kind of places, who've basically been the one radical in their village, who therefore feel very embattled. And when they arrive in Paris, they're delighted to find friends. And their being embattled has made them more radical, I guess. That must be very exciting for them. Oh, yeah. I think there's a definite sense of excitement.

And of the Montagnards, basically now we think of them as being a party ruled by the triumvirate of Robespierre, Danton and Marat. I mean, they really are the big three of the French Revolution, aren't they? The triumvirate, you might almost say. But they're not like a triumvirate. They actually don't really get on with each other. Robespierre hates Marat, doesn't he? Robespierre despises Marat. Won't have anything to do with him. Refuses to have anything to do with him. I think because Robespierre is so chilly and he's so worried about his wig.

and his kind of boniness. He's got great skin. Yeah. And Mara doesn't wear a wig, has terrible skin, awful, sits in baths. Right. Both Danton and Mara have terrible skin, don't they? Danton is too busy stuffing himself with chicken legs. Yeah. And also taking brown envelopes of cash.

Marat is just shouting about killing everybody and being very over the top and stuff. So actually, they're all quite suspicious of each other, these three. They don't work together as a tight-knit unit. I guess the other question is, are these kind of ideological political parties of the kind that we would recognize today? And the answer, again, I think, no. The Montagnard and the Girondins, to outside observers, seem to have loads in common.

You know, they're all Republicans. They all believe in the war, all of that stuff. There are two things I think that are really important, the differences. So one of them is the idea of the people. The Girondins, because they're kind of merchant class from Bordeaux and stuff, they basically think that people like them should be running the revolution.

You know, people who go to literary salons and quote poetry to each other. Yeah. Whereas Rob Spierre and the Montagnard, they think, they're suspicious of that. They are pure populists. They're all about the common people, the virtues of the street. Yeah.

The people of Paris know better. A poor urchin knows much better than a... It's Rousseau, isn't it? It's very Rousseau. It's very Rousseau. It's almost very Christian, is it not? I'm surprised you didn't say that. Of course. But I mean, you know, this is what I think about everything in the French Revolution. That's true. That goes without saying. The other thing that's perhaps a little less Christian is the Montagnards are much keener on violence. No, but you see, I think that is pretty Christian. Virtuous violence. Yeah.

Okay. Crusades, inquisitions. Okay. Let's just assume you think it of everything. No, I don't think it of everything because obviously you can have non-Christian violence, but I think the idea of violence being virtuous. Yeah. That's where it's coming from. Yes. As you'd expect, because this is 18th century France and displays of violent virtue are everywhere. Yeah. Fair enough. So obviously the most visible sign of violence

virtuous violence has been the September massacres, which the Montagnards were all for. But the Girondins are actually a little bit conflicted about the September massacres. They've been... Robespierre thought all this was brilliant. He loved the attack on the Tuileries. He loved the September massacres. He thinks the fact that the Girondins are being a bit squeamish shows that they are

suspects, counter-revolutionary and all that kind of thing. Tom, I can see you're itching to say something. What is so interesting and fascinating about this is that you see for the first time the manifestation of political trends that just repeat and repeat and repeat. And surely what is happening with the Girondins and the Montagnards is the notion that people on the left can be outflanked to their left and therefore are always moving leftwards to try and avoid that. And

So the radicals of one month can suddenly find themselves the reactionaries of the next month. It means that there's an impetus always to go further and further. Whether you are backing the people are always right, or whether you are saying virtue is manifest in violence, it's

If you start saying, oh, I'm not sure about that, then immediately you're a reactionary. And that is a trend that you see again and again and again throughout the history of 19th century socialism and right the way up to the present day. Absolutely. You're totally right. That sort of ratchet effect. And in fact, I was just thinking if somebody missed a couple of episodes of this series, if they'd skipped ahead...

They'd be like, hold on, those people were on the far left two episodes ago. Now you're describing them as, you know, counter-revolutionary reactionaries. Because as you say, the center of gravity is always moving leftwards. What's on the Girondins' mind as well, by the way, is the fact that during the September massacres, there is some evidence that Robespierre and Marat had actually toyed with the idea of killing them too.

So Robespierre, on the day the massacres had broken out, the 2nd of September, he had been giving a speech in the commune, the sort of city council of Paris, in which he had said that the Girondins were secret agents of the Prussians and perfidious intriguers working against French liberty. Now, anyone who's listened to the whole of this series will know how bonkers that is because the Girondins were the key people in getting France into the war in the first place.

But of course, at the time, everybody believes in this idea of the mask of patriotism, that the more patriotic you appear to be, the more likely it is that you are in fact a traitor. So the commune had issued a warrant for some of the Girondins' arrests, which was never carried out. But Brissot and Roland and these people, they know about this. And they say, my God, Robespierre wants to kill us. He wanted to kill us. And it's just luck that he didn't.

And so they become convinced, well, they are now convinced, that basically it's kill or be killed. So in that sense, right from the moment the convention meets, which is 21st of September, it's not like a normal parliament that we would know today because there is no sense of pluralism. There's no sense that they're going to be having discussions and you win some, you lose some, all that kind of thing. No sense of a loyal opposition.

None. So by definition, this is about virtue versus corruption. It's about the Republic versus counter-revolution. To be a dissenter is to be a traitor. And so I think from the very first moment they take their seats, it is obvious there is absolutely going to be a showdown and that whoever loses that will probably end up on the guillotine.

And if you had to put your money on somebody at this point, September 1792, you would probably put it on the Girondeau. They have a bit more of a majority. They have a bit more self-confidence. They control the presidency of the convention. And so right from the beginning with the September massacre so fresh in their minds, they say, right, let's settle this once and for all. Let's do this. And right away they go for the Montagnard's throats.

Wow. Well, I think that is too much excitement for one half of an episode. So I think we should take a break here. And when we come back, we will see what the upshot of this Girondin attempt to take down the Montagnard actually is.

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Hello, welcome back. We left you at a moment of high drama. The Girondins are about to take on the Montagnards in the National Convention. Dominic, put people out of their misery. What happens? So they make their move, Tom. Two days after the Battle of Valmy, 22nd of September, the convention's only really been up and running for a day and a bit. And

A dozen speakers, one after the other, get up and lay into the Montagnard. And their plan is to convince the convention the Montagnard are traitors and they should be arrested and thrown out of the convention.

They say they are anarchists, they are murderers, they are levelers, interestingly. Oh, right. A word that will be very familiar to people who know about 17th century England. But don't they also compare them to Caesar, Crassus, and Pompey? They do. The first round of ancient Rome. They do. They're very promiscuous with their historical analogies, I think it's fair to say. Because Brissot says, on the one hand, he says they're the hydra of anarchy. They want to level everything. And on the other hand, he says Robespierre, Marat, and Danton are the new Crassus, Caesar, and Pompey, exactly as you said.

And Rob Spear and Daunton say, oh, this is absolute nonsense. You know, I don't even like him. I have no, we're not a Trump-vert at all. Mara, he obviously is, this is, he's making his debut effectively in frontline politics. Wow, what a way to do it. And he says, I'm not a traitor, but if you're accusing me of trying to set up a dictatorship, well, I'll be frank with you. I think a dictatorship would be brilliant. I'd love a dictatorship.

He then says, he pulls a gun out of his pocket and he holds it to his own head. And he says, if you vote to condemn me, I will blow out my brains in front of you. Better than threatening to blow out the brains of Girondins. I guess so. People are very impressed by this. They say, well, this obviously shows the mayor is a tremendous fellow.

And the result of this is that they're not kicked out. So the Montagnard have made a bit of a mistake here. I was about to say they've wounded but not killed their opponent. They've barely even wounded them. Yeah, I mean, if you're going to shoot at the king, you better kill him. Exactly. So it is clear from this point that this feud is only ever going to get worse. And

And a few weeks go by, the Girondins basically are sort of constantly niggling at the Montagnard, but never bringing them down. Also, the Girondins, as time goes by, they're actually beginning to lose a bit of support from the plain, from the independent people, because the independent people actually are a bit sick of this. And also, the Girondins are quite corrupt.

And they're very overbearing and they're very kind of hungry for power and bossy. They've got all their dinner parties, haven't they? They go to their dinner parties. High-fluge dinner parties. Exactly. Not inviting the normal people. Right. And if you're just a bog standard deputy from provincial France, you're sick of being lectured by Brissot and having him slagging off the Montagnard and stuff. You just become very impatient with all this.

And I think that Jean don't know this. So towards the end of October, they decide to have another go. And this time they will just go for Robespierre and they'll go for him personally. And they get a newspaper editor called Jean-Baptiste Louvet to stand up and accuse Robespierre of trying to make himself dictator, of having a personality cult. Now, again, they reach for a Roman parallel, interestingly. Of course they do. So Louvet deliberately models his speech on Cicero and

unveiling the Catalan conspiracy. And of course, that's the analogy that everybody knows. They've all grown up with it. They've all done it at school. It's been a long time. How long will you abuse our patience, Robespierre? All of that stuff. Exactly. And Louvet says, come on, France has a choice. There are only two parties and France must choose. There is the party of us, the Girondins. We're the party of philosophers.

And on the other hand, there is the mountain. They're the party of murderers. Put like that. Yeah, exactly. If I was facing attack from the Prussians and I had to choose one of those two parties to represent me, I definitely wouldn't choose the philosophers. But you know who's there for this?

Well, you do know because I know you've got the notes. But also I know this because I'm a big fan of his. It's the great poet William Wordsworth. He's basically on his gap year, isn't he? Yeah, he is. He's on a holiday. Well, he's not on holiday. He's graduated and doesn't know what to do with himself. So he's gone off to France supposedly to improve his knowledge of French. But actually, he's having an affair with a woman in Orléans, got her pregnant. But that would improve your French though, surely. Yes, it would. Sure.

Give us a bit of poetry, Tom. I know you love a bit of Wordsworth. When a dead pause ensued and no one stirred in silence of all present from his seat, Louvet walked single through the avenue and took his station in the tribune saying, I, Robespierre, accuse thee. Now that line is actually a bit confusing, isn't it? Because...

It makes it sound like Rosario is claiming to be. Exactly. I don't want to diss Wordsworth, one of our greatest ever poets. Wordsworth lets himself down there with his lack of clarity. So this is in the prelude, which he writes much later when he's become a counter-revolutionary and a massive reactionary. Shall I carry on? Do. We'd love that. A bit more poetry? Yeah, I love it.

Well is known the inglorious issue of that charge and how he who had launched the startling thunderbolt, so that's Louvet, the one bold man whose voice the attack had sounded, was left without a follower to discharge his perilous duty and retired lamenting that heaven's best aid is wasted upon men who to themselves are false.

which is a long way of saying that Louvre's attack doesn't work and he doesn't get the support that he'd been expecting and it's all a bit of an embarrassment and a letdown. It is an embarrassment, exactly. Wordsworth, in a very convoluted way, is quite right. And actually, Rob Spierre completely wins the day. So a week later, Rob Spierre, he bides his time and then he makes his response. And he says...

I have encouraged violence, he says, but I did it because it was the only way to save the country. And he says to everybody, do you want to have a revolution without a revolution? I mean, we have to, you know, I did it and I was right to do it. Because people may remember when we talked about the guillotine, that Robespierre was against capital punishment.

But he is now saying that the travails of the Republic are such that the real crime would not be to support the elimination of those who threaten France and the nation. And as we discussed in the September massacres episode, a majority clearly agree with that. They think we're at war. You know, we've always executed people. It's not like public executions and the public display of violence is a novelty anymore.

It's completely reasonable for us to use violent measures to preserve the Republic. And so Robespierre wins the day. He gets torrents of applause in the convention.

Brissot and the Girondins are kind of fuming. They're sort of like cartoon characters, kind of clenching their fists with braid. You pesky Montagnards, kind of on the benches. And Brissot writes to Dumouriez, and he says, this is absolutely intolerable. He says, I spend all my time fighting these miserable anarchists, that's a direct quote, when I should be concentrating on the uprising of the entire planet. I mean, which is a bonkers thing to say, but... Quite Trotsky, isn't it? It's very Trotsky.

But you can see why he's saying it, because we're now six weeks after the Battle of Valmy. And since then, Tom, there have been some unbelievably dramatic scenes on the battlefield. Has du Maurier managed to invade Belgium, which you said is a long-term kind of plan? Excitingly, yes. Oh, bless him. So for once, somebody in the story has actually got what he wanted. So basically, here's what's happened. I know you love military history, Tom.

The Prussians have been hanging around outside Valmy pouring with rain after this kind of draw. And the Duke of Brunswick eventually says, right, listen, we don't want to be cut off from our supplies. We're obviously not going to get to Paris. Let's cut our losses, head back towards Germany for the winter.

So in scenes of great sort of degradation and misery, which kind of Goethe writes about, he withdraws all the way back and he even goes all the way back across the river Rhine. Now that really matters because what that means is that the western bank of the Rhine is now completely undefended. With German cities and towns on it, it is completely undefended from the French.

So by late October, the French, who were on their uppers a bit ago, are now advancing on German cities, places like Mainz, Worms, Frankfurt. And out of these German cities, the prince bishops and the electors and all of these bigwigs are kind of fleeing as fast as they can with all their kind of Germanic books and whatever, marzipan on carts. So this is the point of what Brissot is saying to de Meurier, is that this is now...

an international revolution. Right. The world lies open before us because the French, by the way, in the long run, this will be a massive moment in European history because it's basically the birth of German identity and German nationalism because loads of people couldn't wait for the French Revolution to get to Germany. When the

When the revolution does turn up, they say, oh God, this is terrible. All these French people kind of living in our houses, looting all our stuff and bossing us around. And so you get the German identity, you can argue, to some degree, dates from this moment as a kind of political force. Anyway, the French don't just stop

at the Rhine. They're advancing everywhere. So they invade the Swiss Federation. They're heading for Geneva. They invade Savoy and they take all the lands west of the Alps and they create a new department called Mont Blanc. They also seize the county of Nice. We always think of Nice as, I mean, most people think of it as French. It's actually been part of Savoy since 1388. And so all these kind of little medieval aberrations are being swallowed up by France and becoming part of France.

So Avignon as well had already gone. Yeah, Avignon, exactly. But above all, Belgium. So Dumouriez had always dreamed of this. He beats a small Austrian army at a place called Gemap, which is just south of Mons on the 6th of November.

And the Austrians have to pull back. He takes Mons. He's in Brussels by the 14th of November. By the end of November, I mean, this is the extraordinary thing, the seesaw momentum. He has taken Liege and Antwerp, and he is heading towards the borders of the Dutch Republic. And Dominic, by this point, there is a lot of singing of the Marseillaise. Loads, exactly. It accompanies the invasion, the victories, all kinds of things. I think this is the moment, actually, when you can say that patriotic revolutionary fervour

is born really born in victory this is the point at which you have patriotic festivals across France sort of feasts and bonfires and people singing things like they're singing the Marseillaise in the streets and again it's a manifestation of the fact that now France is no longer a monarchy and is a republic suddenly they're winning yeah absolutely but here's the thing right there

They're not just winning. They're winning victories now. And because the Prussians and the Austrians had basically not bargained for this, overextended themselves, not properly prepared. The French are now winning victories that are really unprecedented in the last few generations. Victories that eclipse even the victories of Louis XIV. And so deputies back in Paris are now beginning to ask themselves, well,

Well, where will we stop? Where would the revolution stop? Because, of course, they've always thought of it as not just a French nationalist project, but a universalist one. Well, again, this is what Brissot's saying. This is a global issue. He's the arbiter of the world. Exactly. Some people say, well, our borders, our obvious borders are geographical. The Pyrenees, the River Rhine, the Channel, the Mediterranean, and so on. But other people are saying, well, really? I mean, if we stand for liberty, if

If we stand for these kind of timeless, eternal values, why would we stop at some mountains? Why wouldn't we go beyond? And have they not enrolled as French citizens, people in foreign countries who are particularly enthusiastic for the revolutions? Like Tom Paine? Tom Paine would be the famous example. On the 19th of November, they vote France will assist anybody, anybody who wants to, and I quote, recover their liberty. And a month later…

They agree that everywhere French armies go, they will take the revolution with them. So that means they will abolish feudalism. They will attack the privileges of the Catholic Church. They will institute a republican system. So it's a war on the monarchies of Europe. So this has never happened before in European history. States have fought wars with each other, of course, and taken each other's territory. But the idea that you would go into somebody's country

and completely rewire their system so that it looks like yours, ideologically reboot them. This, to a lot of people, is profoundly, profoundly shocking. So Cromwell hadn't done that? No. I mean, there'd be no sense of, let's export the English Revolution. Exactly.

And what is more, I mean, I think this is very French. They decide that they will make everybody else pay for this. So there's a guy called Pierre-Jacques Combon, who's a Protestant merchant from Nîmes. And he says, listen, there's an obvious way to fund this. When we occupy a given country, they should be so grateful for their liberty that they should pay us a tax to pay for their own occupation.

And the convention says, this is an absolutely great idea. Now, you might think this sounds very over-the-top and hubristic, but they, I think, really believe in this. Brissot is standing there in the convention, November 1792, and he is saying...

We will liberate Naples. We will liberate Spain. We will liberate Poland. We will be in Berlin probably this time next year. We can go all the way to Moscow. It's like they're basically drunk on their own rhetoric. His friend Vernieu, remember we had him talk about the...

There's a great quote from him. He's a great orator talking about the declaration of war in the first place. He now says, this will actually be the last war. This will be the end of history. Men have died, he says, but they have died so that no men will ever die again. I swear to you in the name of the universal fraternity which you are creating, that each battle will be a step towards peace, humanity and happiness for all mankind.

So I think if that's what they're bringing, it's fair enough to get people to pay for it. Very good. I mean, the thing is, nobody has ever talked about this in European history before. You know, when France was fighting its wars in Italy in the early 16th century, nobody said this is the war to end all wars. This will bring a new age of happiness. They just said, brilliant, let's pile into Milan and loot and pillage.

Did Henry V say this in the Hundred Years' War? Did Edward III? Of course they didn't. But the dream of a universal peace is, of course, we know where that's coming from. We do indeed. But of course, among other things, there's a very obvious problem that they have, which is it's a problem left over from before the Republic, and it's that they have still in their midst...

Not just any old traitor, but the traitor of traitors. You know, a rallying point for counter-revolution. It's the erstwhile king. It is the erstwhile king. It's Louis Capet. Well, so that is what they call him, Louis Capet. Yeah. Because the man who is elected...

king of the Franks at the end of the 10th century is Hugh Capet. So that's where the name of the Capetians comes from. It's not actually his name. And in the next episode, where we look at the trial and execution of the king, we'll explore why they call him Louis Capet and not Louis Bourbon. But I just intrude with that. But they call him Louis Capet. That never occurred to me before. Obviously, that isn't really his name. No.

No, it's not his name. And he and Louis objects very strongly to being called Capet. But we will explore this tomorrow. That's tantalizing. Tom, if I wasn't already a member of the Restless History Club, I'd sign up now so that I could have to wait. So just the last sort of five minutes or so before Theo explodes with rage that we're going on too long. Where has Louis been all this time? He's been in the temple in this medieval keep. He's been with Marion Toinette, his sister Elizabeth and his two children.

They've been reading loads of books. They're basically living like a middle-class English family during COVID and lockdown. So Louis and Marie Antoinette have been homeschooling the children. They've been teaching them to recite, kind of great.

reams of racine and corneille and stuff great french dramatists uh louis loves his geography so they've been coloring in a map of the new departments of france and tracing and doing all this stuff it's actually quite sweet they play badminton in the garden and at night uh louis this will please you tom he reads passages of roman history to them but presumably not the establishment of the republic no i don't think so but apparently he reads passages that somehow mirror their own predicament

So people who've been locked up but are very noble and long-suffering and all this kind of thing. They are quite tightly restricted. Marion Svenett's not allowed to sew in case she's sewing a code. Louis is not allowed to shave because people are worried that he might kill himself. And the guards, it's very like the Romanovs in 1918. The guards were always kind of scribbling graffiti on the wall that shows a fat man being hanged or guillotined or something. So that's a bit ominous for Louis.

Now, the convention, you might say, why do they have to take any proceedings against him at all? Because he's just a citizen now. This is the point of Louis Capet. He's just like anyone else. But there are two reasons. One is if they really think he's been betraying them to foreign enemies, they really ought to punish him. And number two, they know there are loads of royalists in France. They can't leave such an obvious focus for counter-revolutionary rebellion.

alive. And the sans-culottes on the streets of Paris still blame him, remember, for the fighting at the Tuileries and the Swiss Guards and all of that sort of business. They have a huge discussion about whether constitutionally they are allowed to put him on trial because under the old constitution, if the king transgressed, it laid down what you do and you remove him from office. But once you do that, it's done. So can they punish him further?

And basically, they get a constitutional lawyer, a guy from Toulouse called Jean-Baptiste Mailly. And he says, Louis is clearly guilty of terrible crimes. And the law of nature overrides the Constitution. The Constitution actually was given by the nation.

And if the nation gives the constitution, the nation has the right to withdraw it. And the law of nature demands that Louis is punished. And this is a crucial moment, isn't it, in the history of what will happen over the next year. The idea that if you follow nature, then you can't do anything wrong.

no matter where it leads. There again, very Rousseau, very Rousseau. So they have a sort of debate about how this will work. A few people, a very small group of kind of what you, I suppose you would say people on the right of the convention, on the right of the Girondin group say, I just think we should leave him alone. Let's not do this at all. But,

Most people say, we should probably have a trial. There are some Montagnards, whoever, who say a trial is mad. We should just kill him straight away. He doesn't even deserve a trial. And the most famous one of those, a character who we should now introduce, is a young man, the youngest deputy in the whole convention. He's only 25 years old, and he stands up to make his maiden speech in November. So this guy is called Louis-Antoine Saint-Just.

He's from a small town in Picardy. He's basically a massive Robespierre fan. He's been sending him fan mail since 1789. And I kind of think about Sanjus that here's the point at which Rousseau and romanticism kind of meet. He's got

long, lank hair. He's got an earring. He's very pale. He's never seen smiling or laughing. He's Shelley with political power. Yes, I guess he is. I guess. Was it Shelley who was pursued by his classmates around Eton? Yes. The Shelley hunt. The Shelley hunt. Yeah. I would have loved to have seen that with Sanjus because I hate Sanjus.

He wrote an enormous poem, didn't he, about his sexual frustration. Surprise, surprise. He did. And he prides himself. He basically loves Rob Spann. He prides himself on

being even more virtuous, more emotionless, more logical. Rationalist. Yeah, than Robespierre. That rationalism and virtue are to be equated. Yes. And again, this is the birth of something that over the course of the 19th century will actually become quite chilling. It's the kind of thing Dostoevsky was obsessed by. Yeah. And Saint-Just is the founding paradigm of

of the terrorists that you get in Dostoevsky's novels. He absolutely is. Again, he loves the idea, the very word terror. It's a very Saint-Just word. But his rationalism, his kind of icy rationalism

It's the icy rationalism of somebody who is throbbing with suppressed emotion. Isn't he? I mean, basically. He's an incel. He is a total. He is a man who just needs to go for a walk, meet some girls. Hang out with Danton. Yeah, exactly. Danton, show him a good time. Anyway, of course, that relationship doesn't end terribly well, does it? No. Perhaps not coincidentally. So Sanchez gets up and he says there was no need for a trial because the point he says is that Louis is not guilty because of anything he's done.

He's guilty. And this really brings out your point. This absolutely anticipates so much of the revolutionary stuff of the 19th and 20th centuries. Sanchez says he's guilty because of what he is and what he has been. A virtuous republic cannot allow somebody who has been a king to live. And I quote, no one can reign innocently. Every king is a rebel and a usurper. So there's no middle ground. This man must reign or die.

He must die to assure the repose of the people. Right. And Dominic, that is the crucial, crucial line that opens up, I think, the proper understanding of the trial and execution of the king. Because there is no foundational moment for the Republic. There is no proclamation.

And that is because the king still lives. So therefore, the death of the king becomes the kind of the baptism of the Republic. And I think that that is why Saint-Just's speech is so memorable and so significant. Yeah, I think that's a really good point, Tom. Because it does. It is one of the two or three most famous speeches of the entire revolution. It makes Saint-Just's name. And it also, as you say,

seems to serve as a kind of departure point, as a punctuation point in kind of France's constitutional journey. Anyway, the funny thing about this speech is actually it doesn't work because they decide they will have a trial. So while they're making the plans for the trial, just before we get into that, just as they're finalizing the plans for the trial, there is a really, really important development. Monsieur Roland, the husband of Madame Roland, the interior minister who's a Girondin, on the 20th of November is taken into the Tuileries Palace by a locksmith called Gamins.

Gamma was the guy who had taught the king all about his locks. And Gamma says to Monsieur Roland, no one knows this, but I'm going to show you something. And he takes him and he shows him a secret iron safe hidden behind the paneling. Roland opens it and it's full of confidential papers and documents. And he now makes a terrible mistake, a mistake that I think will kill him.

He takes the papers out and he goes through them himself in secret. He doesn't share them with anybody. And then he goes to the convention. He says, well, I've made an amazing discovery. I have found all these confidential documents. And they, I can, let me tell you, there's some pretty interesting things in them that will incriminate some of you. And you will, you won't be laughing then. And lots of deputies are really shocked and frightened and outraged at this, especially the Montagnards.

They're like, what are these documents? How do we know that you haven't forged them? Exactly. They're absolutely furious. So all this will come back to really haunt Roland and the Girondins. But in the meantime, the documents prove two things. First of all, they prove now beyond any possible doubt that

that Louis was conspiring against the revolution. He was in touch with the Austrians. He was writing to counter-revolutionary groups. He was doing all of this kind of stuff. Yeah, because his signatures are all over these papers. His fate is sealed from this point. He is done, I think. The second thing, the documents also prove beyond any possible doubt that all that stuff about the mask of patriotism, which we've discussed as though it's so paranoid and such a mad conspiracy theory,

It's indeed quite accurate because one of the great heroes of the early revolution, Mirabeau, another man with terrible skin, by the way, he's clearly, there's loads of letters from him showing that he was conspiring against the revolution, taking loads of money from the courts,

And, you know, his reputation is shredded. They go and take his ashes out of the Pantheon. They take his bust out of the Jacobean Club. They're like, well, this proves the point. Can't trust anyone. Can't trust anybody. So a few days after this, the 1st of December, the convention votes, first of all, anyone who calls for the return of the monarchy, anyone who makes any, and I quote, infringement on the sovereignty of the people,

which is very satisfyingly vague if you are a big fan of revolutionary terror, will face punishment by death. And two days later, they vote that this man, Louis Capet...

we can discuss his name next time, will be brought before the National Convention to answer for his crimes. And Rob Spier gets up at the tribunal and he says, remember, your task is not to pass a sentence for and against a man. It is to defend the safety of the public and to take an act of national providence. I pronounce this fatal truth with regret, but Louis must die because the homeland is

must live. Amazing stuff. So, Dominic and everyone, the scene is set. Louis will be brought to trial. Will he be convicted? If he is convicted, what will his fate be? There is only one way to find out, and that is to tune into the next episode. If you simply can't wait, then you can go to therestishistory.com and sign up there.

But either way, we are approaching the climax of this particular stage of our series on the French Revolution. So we'll see you very soon. Bye-bye. Au revoir.

Now, Tom, as you know, I'm not just a man of history. I'm also known for my involvement in the performing arts. Are you now? I must confess that early on in my acting career, my stage presence did come under a little scrutiny from Britain's finest newspapers. Oh, yes. This is the famous, notorious one-star review in the Scotsman, isn't it? Yeah, and I will remind the listeners that in Scotland, they order their reviews in a different way. So one is at the top.

And five stars is the worst review you could get. So we were very happy with that one star review. But like a lot of great masters of their craft, Tom, I learned from it. I grew. I evolved. I knew I would bide my time before returning to the boards. And guess what? You're not. No. Yes. Tom, I have to tell you, I have returned to the boards. I'm performing once again. And the brilliant news for our listeners is that you can go and you can be transfixed

by my performance right now because I am honoured and privileged to appear in the latest Sherlock & Co adventure, The Adventure of the Norwood Builder. Please tell me that you are playing the Norwood Builder. I'm playing a much better character. I'm playing Hector Macfarlane.

a solicitor from Blackheath accused of murder. Goodness, as Lestrade's officers bear down on me, Tom, I have nowhere else to turn but to 221B Baker Street. This is amazing, Dominic. And the fact that you were cast in this role, it has nothing to do with the fact that Sherlock & Co. is a goal-hanger production.

Like this one. Well, very much like this one with a better acting, I think it's fair to say. It's a stable mate of ours. They are a massive show. They get 10 million downloads. Outside, I believe, The Archers. This is the biggest audio drama in Britain. Well, I have no doubt, Dominic, that it is more interesting than The Archers.

It genuinely is brilliant. So my son is a massive Sherlock and Co aficionado. It basically goes through all the original short stories and the short stories that are often forgotten in modern day adaptations. It transposes Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's narratives to the modern day. So Watson himself is making the podcast while they're doing the adventures.

You can pick up any adventure you want. You don't have to follow the whole series to get stuck in. It is absolutely brilliant. Do you know who else thinks it's brilliant, Tom? The Guardian newspaper. One of those prized one-star reviews? No, a five-star. They said, and I quote, very funny, mildly sweary, and hugely popular. Do you want to know what the Times said? It said, a breakneck series that Gen Zed, or Gen Z as members of it say, that Gen Zed is hooked on. Wow.

And now that you're appearing on the show, I mean, that will confirm the hook, won't it? It absolutely will. And the Guardian listeners will be beside themselves with joy. So, everybody, please listen to Sherlock & Co. The Adventure of the Norwood Builder. It's multi-part. It's brilliant. Part one is out now. Jump right in wherever you get your podcasts. And here is a clip from that very episode. He was murdered. Supposedly.

No body has been found yet, Watson. Yeah, but... Now listen, you said you would hear me out, didn't you? Do you want to just dial it down a bit, Hector? Would you? Would you dial it down when you're smeared over every paper? Look at this. Look at this. In the Times here, look. Solicitor suspected for contractor disappearance. The Telegraph.

Solicitor faces long arm of law. The Daily Mail. Bully of Blackheath. Elite London lawyer facing murder charge. I mean, this is just... This is... The Guardian. Here, look at this. Old Acre Murder. How neoliberal materialism and Kirsty Allsop home renovations are the real killers at the working... Oh, well, that one goes on a bit. Yeah, we get the point. Do you? Do you? I'm not sure you do. The Daily Sport...

Big job love. Macfarlane's wife's steamy romp with missing builder. I mean, look, there's a thought bubble above my wife's head saying, knob the builder, can he fix it? Hector. The speech bubble as well. Here's your extension, love. I mean, this is just the sun. Cannibal Hector. Macfarlane confesses to eating Norwood tradesman.

You confessed to what? Sorry? I didn't confess to a damn thing! I said I was hungry for justice! That's all! It is slander! It's disgraceful! It's bloody humiliating! Could we perhaps return to the chain of events as you, not the press, perceive them? MUSIC

Hi there, I'm Al Murray, co-host of We Have Ways of Making You Talk, the world's premier Second World War history podcast from Goldhanger. And I'm James Holland, best-selling World War II historian, and together we tell the best stories from the war.

This time, we're doing a deep dive into the last major attack by the Nazis on the West, the Battle of the Bulge. And what's so fascinating about this story is we've been able to show how quite a lot of the popular history about this battle is kind of the wrong way around, isn't it, Jim? The whole thing is a disaster from the start. Even Hitler's plans for the attack are insane and divorced from reality. Well, you're so right. But what we can do is celebrate this as an American success story for the

ages. From their generals at the top to the GIs on the front line, full of gumption and grit, the Bold should be remembered as a great victory for the USA. And if this sounds good to you, we've got a short taste for you here. Search We Have Ways wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks.

Yeah. Anyway, so who is Obersturmbannfuhrer Joachim Peiper? But I see his jaunty hat and I just think... And his SS skull and crossbones. Well, I see his reputation and I think, you know, you might be a handsome devil, but the emphasis is on the devil bit rather than the handsome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway...

Be that as may, he's 29 years old and he's got a very interesting career, really, because he comes from a pretty right-wing family, let's face it. He's joined the SS at a pretty early stage. He's very international socialism. He's also been Himmler's adjutant. Yeah. He took a little bit of time off in the summer of 1940 to go and fight with the 1st Waffen-SS Panzer Division. Yep.

Did pretty well. Went back to being Himmler's adjutant. Then went off and commanded troops in the Eastern Front. Rose up to be a pretty young regimental commander. I mean, there's not many people that age. Or an Obersturmbannfuhrer, which is sort of colonel. Yes, you see, what must it have been like if you're in...

If Himmler's adjutant turns up and he's been posted to you as an officer, do you think, well, he only got that job because of his connections? For Piper, it must have been always, he's always having to prove himself, surely, because he has turned up. He's not worked his way through the ranks of the Waffen-SS. He's dolloped in, having come from head office, as it were.

It must be a peculiar position to be in, right? He's got lots to prove, right? That's what I'm saying. Yeah, and he's from a sort of middle-class background as well. Yeah. But he's got an older brother who's had mental illness and attempted suicide and never really recovers and actually has died of TB eventually in 1942. He's got a younger brother called Horne.

He's also joined the SS and Toten Kopf Verbande and died in a never really properly explained accident in Poland in 1941. Piper gains a sort of growing reputation on the Eastern Front for being kind of very inspiring, fearless, you know, obviously courageous. You know, all the guys love him, all that kind of stuff. But he's also orders the entire the destruction of entire village of Krasnaya Polyana in a kind of revenge killing by Russian partisans.

Yeah. And his unit becomes known as the Blowtorch Battalion because of his penchant for touching Russian villages. So he's got all the gongs. He's got Iron Cross, Second Class, First Class, Cross of Gold, Knight's Cross. Did very well at Kursk. Briefly in Northern Italy, actually. Then in Ukraine. Then in Normandy, he suffers a nervous breakdown. Yeah.

Yeah. And he's relieved of his command on the 2nd of August. And he's hospitalized from September to October. So he's not in command during Operation Lutich. And then he rejoins 1st SS Panther Regiment as its commander again in October 1944. It's really, really odd. I mean... But isn't that interesting, though? Because if you're a Lancer, if you're an ordinary soldier, you're not allowed to have a nervous breakdown. You don't get hospitalized. You don't get time off.

How you could interpret this is this is a sort of Nazi princeling, isn't he? He's demonstrated the necessary Nazi zeal on the Eastern Front and all this sort of stuff. It comes to Normandy where they're losing. Why else would he have a nervous breakdown? He's shown all the zeal and application in the Nazi manner up to this point, and they're losing, you know. And because he's a knob, you know, because he's well connected, he gets to be hospitalized if he has a nervous breakdown. He isn't told like an ordinary German soldier, there's no such thing as combat fatigue, mate.

go back to work. Yes, and it's a nervous breakdown, not combat fatigue. Well, yes, of course. But, you know, what's the difference? One SS soldier said of him, Piper was the most dynamic man I ever met. He just got things done. Yeah. You get this image I have of him of having this kind of sort of slightly manic energy. Yeah. Kind of, he's virulently National Socialist. He's got this great reputation. He's damned if anyone's going to tarnish it. You know, he's a driver, you know,

all those things he's trying to make the will triumph isn't he he's working towards the Fuhrer he's imbued with he knows what's expected of him extreme violence and cruelty and pushing his men on I mean he's sort of he's the Fuhrer Princip writ large isn't he as a as an SS officer uh yeah which is why cruelty and extreme violence are bundled in to wherever he goes basically