AMA #11: Improve Task Switching & Productivity and Reduce Brain Fog
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Welcome to the huberman lab podcast, where we discuss science and science space tools for everyday life. I am Andrew huberman and am a professor of neutral logy and optimal gy at stanford school of medicine today. Isn't ask me anything episode or A M A.

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And for those of you that are not human and lab podcast premium subscribers, you can still hear the first twenty minutes of today's episode and determine whether not becoming a premium of subscriber is for you. So without further a do let's get to answering your questions. The first question is about tasks switching.

And the specific question is, is there a way to get Better at task switching? Well, task watching is an incredibly interesting topic. It's something that plagues many people.

That is, a lot of people have chAllenges with. Test switching is also a topic that people will often confuse with cognitive flexibility. So all of us, well, unless it's been removed, have an area of our brain called the prefrontal cortex.

The words prefrontal al cortex actually refers to a fairly varied real state within the human brain. So it's not one area of the human brain. Prefrontal cortex actually include a lot of different subdivisions that do different things in the context of cognition and directing action with holding action, these kinds of things. But one of the main functions of the prefrontal cortex is that when is working well, IT allows us to direct our focus in our cognition, our thinking, in a context dependent way.

So one of the simplest ways to describe this is that when you took math in high school, if you're still taking math, your brain had to Carry out certain types of cognitive Operations that were very different than the types of cognitive person that you need to Carry out in your history class or your social studies class. But there were some features of all three of those classes that were the same in the sense that presume ly, you had to sit in a chair for all of those classes. You followed a certain set of rules that pertained to all three of those different classes, even though their different subjects, but then there were certain rules that pertained just to mathematics.

Certain rules that you followed because of particular teacher was strict, not because of the topic they were covering, as well as certain rules that maybe you did not pay attention to you because a different teacher was a little more lax for instinct. Maybe there was a teacher to lay you, put your feet up on the chair in front of you. Maybe another teacher forbid that at all costs.

The point being that your preferences cortex is the area of your brain that, along with other areas, your brain ensures that you engage in context specific behavior, context specific thinking and context specific understanding about what you should and should not do. Now, cognitive lexi bill is similar in the sense that IT describes your ability to switch the types of cognitive Operations, as the name suggests, depending on what sorts of things you're trying to learn or understand. And it's a lot more extensive than that of that.

We will probably do an entire episode all about both cognitive lexi book and even a separate episode on task watching. But switching is somewhat distinct from coding flexibility. First of all, to switching requires cognitive lex ibt, but they're not the same thing.

Now when we talk about test switching or rather when you see test switching in the scientific nature, most often IT has to do with people performing ones particular type of mental or physical Operation, say they are their maneuvering things with their hands or other parts of their body, or they are required to Carry out one specific type of mental process. And then they are required either at random intervals or specific intervals, maybe every ten minutes or so, to switch their attention and to do a different task entirely. Now, in the laboratory experiment situation, this is most typically being Carried out the following way.

People are going to do one cogniac task, maybe mathematics, or they're going to account, for instance, from one up to infinity, as high as they can go in a different amount of time, in increments of, say, seven, or increments of seven plus one and seven minus one. So these can be made increasingly difficult. Get the idea and then perhaps a tone is played, or they're get a signal from the experimenter and then they need to switch their task to doing something quite different, but also cognitive.

That's the most typical arrangement. Or another typical arrangement in a test switching experiment, is that the subject, the person in the test switching experiment will be asked to do some sort of physical manipulation of objects, maybe placement of puzzle pieces, into the correct configuration. Then at some designed interval or intervals, they will have to switch to a different manual task.

Fewer, not zero, but fewer experiments have examined task watching between physical and cognitive task. Okay, now there are these kind of radio's examples that you can find on the internet. By the way, I don't suggest that anyone go engage in these examples in real life of kind of extreme test switching.

One of the most notable ones would be chess boxing. Believe or not, this exist where two people will enter a ring and they will sit down at a table, and they will play chess for a given period of time. So they're entirely focused on playing chess.

Then a buzz will go off, the chest table will be cleared, the chairs will be cleared, and they will be expected to box, literally fight for a round of saa, minutes to three minutes, and then go back to chest. Then the boxing, so called chess boxing. Again, i'm not suggesting people chess box, but I know that many people have chAllenges with task switching.

And here I can raise my hand, say that I am won such person. I've always had a pretty good ability to drop into deep focus after a period of time. You know, I, like everybody else, takes a little more time to get into a book chapter, or to get into a mode physical exercise.

But once i'm doing something, I tend to be very, very focused on that. And I have a much greater chAllenges switching out of that focus mode to doing the next thing, which is one of the reasons why often times I run tarty, because i'm still mentally thinking about our physically engaged in in the thing that I was doing before. Um this is something i'm constantly working on and as a consequence, i've had to seek out in implement certain tools to improve my ability to task, which so i'm going to share a few of those tools with you now because I know a number of people probably struggle with the same thing.

And as I mentioned, really i'm also going to do a full link episode about task switching, about the underlying mechanisms of task switching as well as a more extensive list of tools related to test switching as a full and burn in the podcast episode. So how can we get Better at test switching well short of having somebody scruff you by the neck and force you to stop whatever activity you're doing and engage in the next activity that you're doing? One of the best things that we can do to support our ability to task, which that's nicely supported with at the mechanistic level and at the practical level within the published literature, is to introduce short transition gaps between the activities that we're trying to switch between.

This is something that, in my opinion, has not been discussed enough. In fact, when was last time you heard about the requirement for introducing gaps between tasks if you want to switch between them more efficiently? And yet, as a consequence of this not being discussed very often, I think a lot of people have placed an undo burden on themselves.

For instance, a lot of people think that when you sit down with a book and you're going to read, that you should be able to immediately focus on the material that you're reading and not have your mind flitting about during the first five, maybe even in ten minutes of reading a book chapter, unless you are absolutely enthralled from the first word, or you are intensely curious what the material in that book chapter is. Right, maybe that books chapter is about you and what's going to happen here next in your life. Maybe the news article is about something that you care oh so much about.

But unless it's one of those specific instances, it's going to be about five or ten minutes before the neural circuits in your brain that are required to understand and digest and commit that material to memory are going to come online at the levels of activity that are going to be required for you to experience that as intense focus or even as mild focus, because the activity of the brain is always going to be in a push pull. This is extremely important for understanding, task watching. When you go from one task, and maybe the tasks was simply to walk over to where the book is located to focusing on the material within that book, you have to both engage activity within certain neural circuits, and you need to disengage the activity of other neural circuits.

Now, sometimes this is referred to as inhibition of certain neural circuits. Other times just can be a disciple tion of activity of those neural starters. They're just gonna quit down like a dimmer of the lights in a particular room. While the activity of other neural circuits increases. okay.

So the first thing that you really need to understand if you want to get Better at test switching is that you cannot and you should not expect yourself to immediately drop into a narrow trench of focus or a narrow trench of ability for anything that you're not already extremely skilled that or extremely interested in knowing. okay. One of the reasons why this is often overlooked is that, for instance, if we receive a text message from somebody and we are very interested. And what's containing in that text message, maybe usually anticipating the dot, know in that little window where the text message is going to arrive. Like here IT comes, here comes, here IT comes.

It's an example of where you are able to immediately pay attention and absorb information for intense if you trying to meet somebody in a big city and you need to know exactly where to meet them, and you've arrived at the place where you thought you need to be and then you can find them and you're wait and wait and where are you wear? Are you and you know you're going to commit that information in memory and you're going to act on IT when you sit down to read a book of unknown content? Or were you ever just a general sense of what the content is? Or when you sit down to do something like work on a spread shit or your taxes or engage in a conversation with somebody, expect a five to ten minute transition period.

I can't emphasize this enough because I think a lot of people mistakenly think they have issues with attention, and perhaps indeed, they have clinically diagnosable attention deficit, hy activity disorder or some other form of attention deficit disorder. So we can't rule that out based on this conversation alone. But a lot of people play this unfair burden on themselves to immediately be able to focus on a given task. And this is also true for physical tasks, right?

If you go to the gym to work out, or you're heading out on a run or a cycling expedition, the idea that you would immediately be able to cycle at your peak performance, or that you could perform sets and rafts in the gym as best as you possibly could without any warm up, without any transition period, that you could forget about the difficult or maybe a great conversation that you were having on the way in, or that you could forget about other activities that you need to do in the rest of your day. I mean, that's just completely unfair. And IT doesn't match at all the way that your neural circuits work.

So you really need to match expectation of your ability to focus on and performing a given task with the not it's cognitive or physical to the actual underlying biology. Okay, that's the first point. The second point is that we know that if you want to switch from one task to another task, that you are making IT more difficult to drop into full task engagement, or rather engagement with task b following task k.

If you've try to go immediately from task, get to task b that even the introduction, I find this so cool, even the introduction of of an arbitrarily but very short transition period of, say, fifteen seconds, where you know that you're introducing fifteen seconds of transition and you designate ted as transition, will allow you to engage in a more efficient and more complete level of task execution on task b if you introduce even a brief transition period. Now this I find fascinating, because what this means is that there are top down influences. There are literally things that we can tell ourselves based on an understanding of the underlying mechanisms that allow us to test switch Better.

And this certainly doesn't involve taking any kind of prescription drug or supplement to are doing anything differently except as you go from task a to task b, knowing and designating that a transition period, even a very brief one where you are not trying to perform tasks by and that you designate ted, this is a transition period. I'm not trying to focus on the next thing that I need to do. I focus on IT inadvertently, but i'm not deliberately trying to focus on IT.

Rather i'm going to think about what I just did and the fact that i'm no longer doing that can leaving IT like a fog behind, right? You're trying to move from is deep trench of attention hopefully on task k or maybe you didn't achieve a deep trench of attention and you're now done with task and you're not placing this unfair expectation on your neural circuits to just flip to task be. And you're also acknowledging that task b is going to take five to ten minutes to drop into fully.

We already talked about that, but you're going to shorten that five to ten minutes by deliberately introducing a transition period. And what comes in that transition period and its duration is important. So first, let's deal with the duration.

How long should the transition perd be? Well, that is going to scale directly with how long you in a deep trench of focus for task I. But let's assume task I was something that was kind of light for you.

Maybe you're just handling some email, maybe your talking to a coworker, maybe you at a board meeting. And I was kind of a light, you know, this stuff was okay, that you're used to this stuff. There's this stuff that you do all the time.

Now you headed back to your desk, headed IT to your next class, or perhaps you to work out that morning. And now you're going to head to your work place of work, or maybe you're leaving work and you're going to engage with family. And you know, you need to switch all these cognitive Operations. You need to dump the self that you are just doing cognitive ly, and you now need to do a bunch of other things. Contexts, switching task is switching.

Well, just ask yourself, how deeply was I entrenched in that other activity? Was my mind flooding to other things? Or if I was in a deep trench of attention for that giving thing? Well, then you should give yourself slightly longer for this transition period, maybe five or even ten minutes if you have that time.

But even if you give yourself a short as sixty ninety seconds of transition and you just designated, excuse me, as transition, you're going to benefit in terms of your ability to do the next task. So to be very clear, if you're in kind of a light task or something that didn't have much cognate of demand, well, then the transition period can be fairly short IT can be just a couple of minutes. Rather, if you are in a deep trench of attention, you really engage in that first task.

I suggest giving yourself a couple of minutes or more, maybe as much as five to ten minutes, but you might not have that much time, in which case give yourself any kind of transition, even if it's ten seconds. But I certainly have had times in my life, in particular, when I was a new assistance professor. Meaning, before I got ten years where I remember sitting down to work on a grand, I get two lines out, someone would knock on the door.

Where are the whatever the thirty miles ange is? Where do we keep the buffers or where is, know, do we get this thing? And okay, then i'd have to shift my attention.

I go back writing and then distracted by something else again, which is not to say that people were distracting me unfairly. IT was simply the case that at that time, my life required being involved in a lot more things than I did as my career progress, at least in the short term. So the point being that if you are deeply engaging activity, give yourself a little bit longer in the transition period between them.

If you are sort of superficially involved in activity, you need less of a transition period, but you need a transition period. What should come during that transition period? Well, the most important thing to arrive in that transition period is a relative lack of attention to anything.

Knew this is what so destructive about the phone and keeping mind. I am not one of these people that thinks that smart phones are terrible in that I use mine, plural, very often all day, often not necessary during deep cognitive focus. But in between those balls of focus, I have to text message. People like to work on there among social media, so certainly not demonizing the smart phone.

However, if you finish a given activity, whether or not a cognitive, physical activity, and you are headed to something else that requires you do a new task, and that that task requires amount of attention and focus, well then you would do very well to allow yourself a period of anywhere from two minutes to maybe as long as ten minutes. I know this can be very harder for people, but two minutes to as long as ten minutes where you are not looking at your phone, you are not texting, you're not on social media, you're not forget ging for anything. In fact, you're trying to limit the total amount of information that you're bringing into your nervous system and you don't have to walk around with ice cloth and trying not here and not see let's be practical folks, that's impossible to do anyway.

Can shut down your brain while awake. You can go into states of deeper relaxation. There's a non sleep deep breath, which you will talk about a little bit, but you can't shut off your brain deliberately. okay? Not any healthy way that is.

But by introducing these transition zones or transition periods, as will call them, of two to ten minutes between different tasks and making sure that within those transition periods, you are not bringing a new information again, another context and what what are you really doing? Well, you're ensuring that you're not going from task a to task b to task c, right? What we're talking about here is trying to limit your task, watching between task and task b and not introducing another task and between.

And you might think that looking at your phone is not a task, right? It's so easy. It's so reflexive. But IT is it's bringing a lot of new context, particular pictures and movies, which are tremendous stimulus, the nervous system and anchoring your attention.

It's bringing a new ideas, new thoughts that, no matter how hard you try, are going to intrude into your ability to perform task be. So when people say, how do I get Better at task switching? I immediately want to say, please don't introduce yet more tasks, right? Switching from one task to another is hard enough already.

Don't introduce another task in between. Now some of you might take this to mean that you shouldn't have a conversation with a co worker after a meeting while walking down the hall. I'm not saying that I still encourage people to be social.

I encourage people to engage in workplace environments. However, I will say, after many years of working in laboratories at at times were quite large. And you walk into the lab and there a lot of different things going on.

One of the things that you learn how to do if you're gonna get good at your craft is do not pay attention to what's going on with everyone crowded around a computer looking at like who's winning at the world cup. I'm not trying to insult socket players here. I enjoy soccer, but playing IT and observing IT.

But one has to sort scruff themselves a little bit in trying to limit their attention to a number different things in the environment. And really go from task ade to tasked b in a really dedicated way. Short less then if it's certain people I know a lot of people listened makers out there.

They like to you put two or three things or maybe twenty things that are going to accomplished day. One of the best tools that I ever learned, both for sake of test switching, but also for sake of just getting things done on a consistent basis. I picked up while I was a master student at berkely.

A very accomplished professor at that time told me that he writes down everyday three things that he's going to accomplish and only three things, never more than three. Now he also included other activities. In fact, he was um quite active in his musical life, so he wrote his bike to campus.

He also was a runner. He also went the gym. He did not include those on his list of three things, but he would write down no more than three critical things to do each day.

So he had three critical tasks. So i've employed that method as well. I'll write down one, sometimes two, most often three. But if I can, just one or two tasks that I need to complete each day, and everything else is considered part of the was just a automatics ity function of my day, things that I already know how to do.

They don't require a tonic cognitive cus, but I limited things that require a lot of colony focus to three things per day. However, those three things per day can take up many, many hours each, and certainly on the whole. Okay, now, now there are additional things that one can do to improve your ability to task switch.

And one of the things that I found particularly beneficial is not a meditation, but rather is a perceptual exercise. And this is a perception exercise that I learned about when I was a graduate student, but in a totally different context. And he has to do with the way that your visual system and the parts of your brain that past time are related to one another and influence one another.

Now the reason this tool makes sense for improving your ability task, which is because turns out that where you focus your visual attention strongly influences the way that your brain part time. So i'll describe the tool first, and then I get a little bit into the underline mechanisms. But again, i'll get deep into the underlying mechanisms as well as the tool as well as additional tools in a future episode about task switching on the human that part cast.

So if you were to, for instance, close your eyes and not look at anything in your external environment, and just concentrate, for instance, on your breathing or the feeling on the surface of your skin, I know this is starting to sound like meditation, but trust me, it's not meditation. Your perception of time, that is how finally you are slicing time, would be distinctly different then if you were to open your eyes and focus on a far away location, say, way off in the horizon, and not focus on your bottle y sensations. Similarly, if you were to focus your attention on some intermediate location, maybe, let's say, twenty feet away, and simultaneously focus on your internal bodily sensations or the surface of your skin, your perception of time, how quickly time was passing, would also be different than if you close your eyes or if you were looking at some distant location.

So the perceptual tool for task switching is a very simple one. It's one that prka I do every morning and have for many years now, at least for me, has really enhances my ability to test which. And that is to just take a couple of minutes.

And this really only takes about two or three minutes. And typically what I will do is i'll start by closing my eyes. Oh, I should mention, I typically do this in an environment where ideally I can see off into the distance, perhaps from a balcony in an apartment or house, ideally outdoors.

But if i'm indoors, i'll still do this. I'll just look as far off into the distances I can when that step is required. So but I started off by closing my eyes and specially not looking at anything, but directly my brain's focus.

I do the surface of my body, just what IT feels like, what it's in contact with. We're not in contact with maybe my breathing. And i'll open my eyes and I will focus some location on my body, but my body, body surface is like my hand at some distance.

And i'll focus my attention. There may be for just five to fifteen seconds. I should mention that the first station is like all them, where my eyes were closed and I was focusing my body sensations.

I also just do that for about five to fifteen seconds, and I don't count specifically. I'm just a rough roughly five to fifteen seconds or so second station, you're looking at the surface of your hand and if you like, you can also concentrate on your breathing. But typically, people just focus on some specific location on their hand, then all typically lower my hand.

Then i'll look off into the distance, maybe five to ten feet doesn't really matter. Focus my visual attention there, trying to hold that focus for five, fifteen seconds. Then i'll look further off in the distance, maybe further still off into the distance.

Ultimately, what I trying to do is look at the location as far often the distance into the distance, excuse me, as I possibly can. And i'm also trying to pay attention my breathing at the same time, just as a way of calibrating my location to the location that i'm looking at and how great that is. Then typically, I close my eyes and return my tension to my immediate environment and my breathing just in the location.

I mean, hey, so the entire thing only takes about two minutes, again, starting with eyes closed, focusing on self, five fifteen seconds. Then eyes open, focusing on surface of one's body, that is, focusing on to visual attention in five fifteen seconds, maybe ten feet away, then maybe fifty feet away during the metric system. Okay, meters, folks, works just as well.

These distances do not have to be precise. And then after the horizon and then back to once immediate location by closing one's eyes. Now what is happening? When when does this perceptual exercise? And again, it's a perception exert its a visual perceptual exercise.

Well, what's happening is you are shifting your visual focus, obviously, but you are also shifting the way in which you find slice or thick slice time. Now your ability to recognize consciously, whether not you're thin slicing or thick lining time, is much harder to get a grasp of. Then IT is to get a grasp whether not you're looking at your hand are often in the distance.

That's kind of obvious. But what we know for sure is that is you shift your attention from your immediate environment out to different designated locations in your vironment and your time perception shifts accordingly. You're essentially training your brain to shift visual focus and the way in which you process in the time domain.

And this is important in the context of task watching because so much of task switching is not just to understand OK. I'm going from reading to running or from running to reading and the different types of Operations that are required in one case, where s the other, but also a shift in the neural circuits that underly your perception of time. And again, this is a topic that deserves a much more elaborate discussion.

But so much of our ability to execute a task with high proficiency has to do with getting our thinking in our actions into the correct time domain. And when I say time domain, I know a number people can get confused, because time is time, right? People think how what do you mean right? Time domain.

Space domain makes sense here. I'm not my outer space, whether not you're looking in one location or another, close your body or far away from your body or different of domains of space. But the time domain is a little tRicky for most people understands.

So just think of IT this way. When you see a slow motion movie, what you're seeing is a movie that was shot at a high frame, ate many frames per second ay. The typical smartphone shoots movies that about sixty frames per second, some older ones thirty frames per second.

The slow mo function on your smart phone is actually a high frame rate function. You took the same movie, but you took IT IT higher frame rates. You've got a lot more images. Therefore, you can generate slow motion.

So with your visual system, when you focus very close in to your body or you're focused on bodily sensations in your immediate environment, you are fine slices in the time domain, more so than when you are looking further off in the distance. Similarly, when you engage in one type of task, like a board meeting or assume meeting or conversation with friends, you are in a very different set of neural circuit functions. Then when you sit down to read or learn math, or lift weights, or go to therapy, or go for a walk with your dog, for instance.

Now IT should be clear why, when you move from task, get to task b, you want to a introduce a transition period can be very brief. Maybe you don't even have time for the two minute transition period. You just say, OK, i'm in a transition period tween task and tasia.

And moving from this thing to that thing I just need like ten seconds i'm going to recognize i'm going to countdown ten to one or one up to ten doesn't matter. This is transition time, but this is not a time to look at my phone or to be a lot of different time. Domaines, now you might say, well, examine, I should look at the horizon while I am walking from my meeting back to my death.

No, no, no, no. That's not the way that your brain works. IT doesn't anchor to things that just happened in an environment unless they're a particular interest. What i'm saying is set a transition period between task idea maybe as long as ten minutes.

I'm also saying that when you switch between tasks or when you initiate your first major task of the day, please expect do expect a period in which it's hard to get into the groove, so to speak. And in addition to that, I recommend having some sort of practice. And I described the practice that i've used for some period of time now, at least for me, to great success, where you are deliberately shifting your visual attention between different locations close to you and far away.

And you're doing that as a perceptual practice. Again, the whole thing only takes about two minutes, maybe three minutes, and you don't even need to do IT every day. I happened to do IT everyday, but I missed the occasion day here and there. And even if you were to do this perceptual practice once a week or three times a week, i'm certain that you'll benefit because they're doing that perceptual practice. There's also an immediate recognition of the source of shifts that your brain is required to engage in any time you move from task ade to task beer, from task b to task a, and you start to see and feel literally see and feel the way that that transition curse and that IT takes a little bit of time, but that you can accelerate that transition if you understand that.

Oh, when i'm looking here and engaging in this type of behavior or sets of tasks, and then i'm now going to be expected to do another task in a completely different type of environment, that the brain is going to be required to shift over the neural circuits that are active and less active in order to do that, but that you can accelerate that process by practicing IT using that perceptual tool that I described. So there are covered some specific tools that one can use to enhance the one's ability to task, which touching on a bit of the underlying neurobiology and why transition periods are useful if not required. If you think about there's always a transition period when task switching, but here you're taking conscious control over that transition period.

There are additional tools for enhancing one ability task, which they tend to be somewhat specific for the certain kinds of cognitive or physical tasks that what needs to do. The example of chess boxing that I gave earlier, great example of test switching at its extreme, terrible example of a practice space time bridging, very safe. I can think of any way in which you might be dangerous, although please don't do IT while driving or while Operating and other machinery, but by all accounts, very safe.

So you are cost, and we talk about some of the other tools for test switching as well. Thank you for joining. For the beginning of this asked me anything episode to hear the full episode and to hear future episodes of these.

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