AMA #15: Fluoride Benefits/Risks & Vagus Nerve Stimulation
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Welcome to the huberman lab podcast, where we discuss science and science space tools for everyday life. I am Andrew huberman and am a professor neurobiology and opened logy at stanford school of medicine today. Isn't ask me anything episode or A M A.

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So without further a do let's get to answering your questions. The first question is about florida, and the specific question is, why is florida in our water and how much is IT harming us? okay.

Well, that might seem like a short question, but there's actually a lot to that question. And I want to be very clear by posing the question, how much is IT harming us? IT implies that florida is harming.

And I want to be very clear, the degree to which florida can harm you or not harm you depends on how much of IT happens to be in the water or tooth pace store some other thing that you're consuming. okay. So this is very important.

I don't want the question to seem like a leading question to imply that floride is necessarily harming us because as someone bought to tell you, there are clear benefits of florida de for tooth strength and for warding off cavities. But if you get too much floride into your system, IT is dangerous. IT is a poison at certain levels.

So as you've probably heard before, the dose makes the poison. So let's take this seemingly simple question and dissect IT into. The first part of the question was, why is florida in our water? And believe IT or not, even that is hard to answer IT directly because here's what's happening right now. In twenty twenty four, there is a major lawsuit in the state of california to trying get florida removed from the drinking water. The outcome of that case is still yet to be determined, but the case was filed by a group of individuals who strongly believe that florida, at any concentration in the drinking water is bad.

Why would they say that? And what is their evidence? And how strong is that evidence? Well, there is some evidence that if levels of florida in drinking water exceed a certain threshold, IT can cause problems with throat, hormonal function and perhaps even certain aspects of brain function again, if the levels exceeds a certain threshold.

So in the state of california, there is a major lawsuit to try and get floride removed from the drinking water now at the same time, meaning right now there is also a major lawsuit in the united states, this one taking place in buffalo, new york, whereby citizens are suing in the city because they insist that there is not enough florida in the water, and they are suing for damages based on the dental health needs of their children that did not, in their opinion, get enough floor ride in the drinking water. So i'm telling you about all of this because the question, again, was wise, florid in our drinking water. And believe in or not, there are certain states in the united states, certain areas of the united states where the floride levels in the drinking water are low, are zero.

Perhaps that's what the lawsuit in buffalo is about. And by the way, the city of buffo may have now corrected the amount of floor right in the water. Taking IT from zero to something, whether not IT was actually zero is still debate.

But I think you're starting to get the point that there is a wide, wide divergence in terms of how safe people feel about having floride in drinking water. Some people want IT and are suing cities because they feel there wasn't enough of IT in their drinking water, and others don't want any fluoride in their drinking water and they're suing cities because of that. okay.

So this is a really barb wired topic. As i'd like to say, it's one that no matter how close you get to IT, whatever angle you look at IT, you're likely to get stuck a little bit. It's gonna a little bit painful.

okay. Why is florida in some drinking water at all? okay. To set aside the levels and just answer that question, well, in an upcoming episode of the huberman lab podcast about oral health, i'll get into this in a lot more detail, but Flora is a really interesting compound with respect to oral health.

And here's why your teeth, believe IT or not, are always in a state of either demining or those are tRicky words to say, go head and try and say, demonization, reminder zone. So i'm going to refer to them as a demand for demineralized and women for reminding. Zo, okay, your teeth are always in one state or the other, where one state predominates first is the other.

Now a cavity in your mouth occurs when bacteria, in particular structure caucus mutants, sometimes called strip mutant, feeds on sugars in your mouth, and then as a by product of that feeding, create assets that then ero the animal and deeper layers of your tea. In other words, IT demi zed, the tooth. Now, I just told you that your teeth can be in a state of demand or reen at any moment.

The way that your teeth rein, the way they remineralize and can potentially fill in little cavities that have not yet made IT to the deeper layers of your teeth, is through a process that involves the construction of Crystals from minerals. Okay, that's why it's called the remineralize ation. And get this, this is really wild.

These minerals actually stack together, and very organized little sequences collect blocks. And the critical element within those blocks is something called hydrox y appetite. I love that IT has were appetite because we're talking about oral health.

That's the Normal process. Flouride was discovered not because it's a vitamin, not because it's an essential neutral. In fact, that high concentrations is actually a poison. I'll tell a story about that at the moment, where I was actually poisoned by florida at the dentist when I was a kid, in large part due to my own error, floria de IT was discovered.

Can actually get inside of those lego chain like Crystals, the building of those, and form bonds between them that are actually stronger than the hydrox y appetite bonds that would Normally form. In other words, if you consume florida water or use tooth space with floor eye, especially if you do this when you are a kid, what ends up happening is that the Crystals and the mineral ization of the teeth becomes ultra strong, meaning super physiologically strong, which then limits the ability for that strep mutants. And the acid trip mutants produces when to eat sugar to ero the anamal of your teeth, causing what we refer to as cavities.

Okay, so I went and asked several dentists and a paradise st about why is in drinking water wise florida in toothpaste? And then, of course, give me the explanation that I just gave you, which is a chemical, mechanical explanation, or rational. However, most of the things for our health, such as the foods do we eat, the amount of exercise that we do, are not naturally put into our environment, right? But tap water, which goes out everyone who you consumes IT from the top, is basically a government or local government supplied resource.

And basically the rationality was, and I believe this took place first in the one thousand nine fifty, was okay, given potential for floria to make super physiologically strong teeth, what can we do to reduce the cavities, in truth, decay that would occur in children and adult populations? Let's put florrie in the drinking water. So that's what they did.

They did not do this. I was told because I was necessarily the best way to take care of teeth and avoid cavities IT. Turns out there are a bunch of other things that you can do, even if you consume no florida water or tooth pace.

There are things that you can do to enhance the mineralization state of your teeth, even filling cavities, provided those cavities haven't made IT into the deeper, so called denting layers of the teeth. I'll get into all of this in the future episode, but what the U. S.

And other governments decided, this, of course, varies across the world to extend to which the flowed in the drinking water or not, was that by putting float in the drinking water, they could prevent a large amount of two decay and captivities that would otherwise occur. Okay, IT was a in remained a fairly low cost approach for the cities to introduce floride to the drinking water. And that's why florida is in drinking water.

IT is to try and create super physiologically strong teeth. And indeed, every single dentist spoke to, including functional dentist. I spoke to peri dentist.

I spoke to several dentist, ranging from, let's call them more traditionally trained dentist, to more, let's call them alternative dentist. All of them agree that at a chemical, mechanical level, florida creates stronger teeth. However, every single one of them also acknowleged.

That the bonds that are created in those mineralization change, as i'm referring to, I realized that's not the the technical term, is not the Normal hydroxyapatite bonds that would form. They are stronger than the bonds that would Normally form. They are structurally different. If you look at them down what's called an electron microscope, you can see that they're structurally different.

And some, not all, of the dentist I spoke to said, yeah, no, I would be best to remineralize the teeth to fill in any cavities that initially afforded, again, not down to the, but they could still be filled in naturally through the building up of those hydroxyapatite natural bonds. But they acknowledge that many people, perhaps most people, don't take adequate care of their mouth and their teeth. So they understood the rational, putting fluoride into drinking water.

And of course, that's also why fluoride is in many, not all, tooth pace. okay. So i'm hoping that clearly answers for you the question of why there is florida in our drinking water at all. At least in most american cities there is florida in the drinking water.

Although this lawsuit in buffalo um I guess soon to be determined, we will probably tell us whether not indeed there was a total lack or a partial lack of floria in the drinking water there. I'm presuming that the accusation is true, but I don't actually know that to be true. I just know that there is a lawsuit that exists, if you google that you can see some youtube videos about IT formation about this um happening on the bunch of angry parents and i'm sure they are angry parents on the other side.

And um I don't know what the kids are saying, but hopefully no matter what they're saying them through healthy teeth, okay. Now the second half of the question was how much is the florida in drinking water harming us? okay.

And answer this question very specifically, the person has how much is the florida in our drinking water harming us? Well, I already told you ways in which IT is helping the strength of your teeth, right? That's not debated.

okay. Again, there might be some dentist that say, oh, you know, the bombs that are formed by floride are different than the ones are naturally created with no florida. And so there might be some debate about that, but all of them acknowledge that those bonds and the mineralization of the teeth is stronger with florida.

They understand and agree with the rational, even if they don't necessarily agree with the practice as the best practice. How much is florida in drinking water harming you? Well, there are two things you need to ask.

One is, how much florida are you actually drinking? Because IT turns out there's a tremendous range of florida concentrations in tap water, depending on what city you live in. Now I did an entire episode, huberman, and podcast about water.

We talked about distilled water over the spring water. We talked about hydrogen k, about alcoa water. We talked about all of those things, and we did talk about. And one of the key takeaway when you're thinking about florida d in drinking water is to know that if florida concentrations in drinking water are too high or and this is a very important or or you're consuming a lot of a particular water that contains even low levels of flor ride, well, there's the potential. And again, I want to highlight the word potential here.

I don't want to cause alarm that the florida is causing disruptions to thyroid hormone output or on the reception in in other word's, disruptions to thyroid hormone, metabolic and usage in the body. Okay, I want to be really clear here. I don't want people to think, oh, flor, I destroys your thyroid.

Harmon, it's the dose that makes the poison IT depends on how much. Now the centre for disease control set a recommended level of zero point seven milligrams per leader, zero point seven milligrams per leader of florid in drinking water as the level, and hear on periphrases that can help prevent two decay and promote good oral health and that they have deemed safe. But if you want to know how much florida is in your drinking water, whether not IT is above, at or below that value, you need to get your tap water tested.

Now fortunately, there are websites that can tell you how much florida in your drinking water. And if you trust the date on those websites, you can simply put the city you live in into one of those websites and you'll get the information back. I'll provide a few links to those different websites in the showed captions for this episode. We also provided those links in the showed captions for the episode on water. And then you can see, are you adJusting the level of floor riding your drinking water that steem safe less than that value or more than that value.

But keep in mind that if you drink a little bit, a moderate amount or a lot of florida drinking water, you're going to be consuming either more or less florrie just because there's a concentration that's been deemed safe by the center of for disease control does not actually tell you when I OK, if you're drink a half a year of top water day versus a gallon versus just a couple cups, whether or not you are in that save zone. And of course, this is going to vary by body weight, right? If you are small child, those lower levels of florida are going equate to a larger total amount of florida, as seen by the volume of the body, right?

If you think about this, right, everything you know by body wait volume, this is White. Drug dosage is most typically calculated as a function of pounds or kilograms of body weight, right? Not everybody gets the same dose of every of every drug.

And if you're a very large person, may be, you can tolerate more. Florida, as I mentioned before, high levels florida have been shown to disrupt fire. Metta olive m. IT has also been hypothesized.

Again, this is still highly debated, hypothesized to be neurotoxic under certain conditions that is toxic to neurons, that can kill neurons at certain concentrations, not necessarily the concentrations present in you're drinking water. A lot of the evidence that florida is neurotoxic is from so called in vitro studies. So studies done effectively in a dish, although there is some in vivo evidence that IT can cause a neurotoxic A K neurology generation.

So I think when IT comes to the topic of Flora, ye people tend to bin out into not concerned and simply want Flora just strength in their teeth, mildly concerned, you know, keeping an eye on this stuff, you know, okay, flor, I doesn't sound great for me. But you know, as long as the concentrations aren't too high, people will say, i've been drinking tap water of my whole life and I feel great. You know, my teeth, they're strong and my brain works and my thought, word seems fine.

okay. And then people who are very, very concerned about floride at any concentration in their drinking water, hence the the lawsuit in california, other lawsuits around the country. So I believe that when we're talking about florida, you really need to think about the dosages and you need to ask yourself which one of those three goes you fall into? Now if you are concerned about florida, IT does not necessarily mean that you can't drink tap water.

The suggestion simply would be to filter that tap water. And during the episode I did on water, I talked about a number of different filtration approaches. Many of those filters will filter out fluoride de. And you can simply look up in water filters that eliminate or reduce florida. And then some people have enough disposable income and or or concerned enough about floride in their drinking water that they will purchase or create very extensive, very throw filtration systems to completely eliminate florida from their drinking water OK say you'll find different ranges of concern again, aside from the data of high florrie levels being disrupted with thyroid hoon pathways and possibly neurotic, toxic.

I personally, and somebody who filters the drinking water I consume out of the tap, unless that is, i'm going to boil water with IT for making things like loosely, your biotic, which is one of my favorite drink, so that lately I drink this cold brew, Martina, your matter, which by the ways made with purified water, no florida um and so on and so forth. But if i'm making rice or i'm making posters are making up and I need to use tap water, I don't worry about removing the floor ride from that water. However, if i'm going to drink water from to mix you an element electronic packing, or just drink glass of water, or go out on a hike and take some water with me, I do use a water filter, either filter that fills from the top and then seats down and the ones you put in the refrigerator.

Or I recently purchased a whole house filter for the drinking water taps in my house, so that IT does remove all the flow ride and remove some other contaminants as well. So it's going to depend on your level of concern, and it's going to depend under disposable income in any number of other things. And I must could say that everyone's in a while, i'll drink a little bit of tap water out of the tap without any concern about filtering the floor.

I am not somebody who gets hyper concerned about these things, but I do understand why some people do get hyper concerned about these things, especially people read up on flouride. And some of the health concerns are consuming too much floride. Because I also find IT very logical and understandable that as people learn more about how a particular substance might be harming their brain or bodily health, that they will become more concerned about consuming that substance.

I just dance the reason. So what am I suggesting? I suggest that you figure out how much floor I is in your tap water.

I suggest that you then make a decision as to whether not to filter that water or not before drinking IT. And then of course, you have to make a decision about what sort of financial investment you're willing to make. To filter that water, you can find a list of different Price ranges of water filters in the showed captions in the water episode.

May also want to watch that episode and go to that time. Stand up. And there is an enormous range there. I want to be very clear, I don't have a financial relationship to any of those filtration mechanisms.

Again, some people have zero dollars to devote to that process of taking the floride out of the water and other contaminants. Some people have many, many tens of thousands of dollars. So really just depends on your disposable income and your level of concern.

But if you were ask me, I say, yeah, I think you know, given that the cost of most of the filters that can remove most of the floridas low and given that the risk some health concern of consuming too much, why not just remove floride from the drinking water? And then if you say, well, won't that weaken my teeth then I would say, well watched the episode that is soon to come out on the world health because it's going to explain a lot of approaches, including florida containing tooth space, but some other non containing toothpaste and other things that one can do, that the community of professionally trained dentist, all agree, can really help improve the mineralization state of your teeth, and indeed can fill in cavities that have begun to form, but haven't yet made IT to the deeper layers of your teeth and on and on. Now I do have a brief story about florida that i'd be reused if I didn't tell you, which essentially shows that florida is designed to strength and teeth, but is also indeed a poison.

So when I was a kid, I had a lot of dentil issues. I didn't consume much sugar. My mother, fortunate, was good about not letting us consume too much sugar.

But for whatever reason, my mouth was kind of a mess. I'd brush out flaws. I would do all these things. But I actually had my adult teeth coming in behind my baby teeth. So I didn't push out my baby teeth. So not only did I not collect from the truth ferry, which I only recently discovered doesn't real, but how would I know?

Because the two, three ever showed up, because all of my adult came in behind my baby tea, so I had to have all of my baby teeth pulled on the top, so I did not have a good relationship to the dentist as a location or a person. In fact, they had to tell me not to bite the dentist. By the way, I haven't been the dentist in a long time, so hopefully my dentist of watching this is not um too concerned.

I do get twice your cleaning at every dentist agrees that a good thing to do. Some people may need less. Some people may need more.

But how do you know you need to go to dentist to find out? Back to the story about florida. I started going to the dentist quite a bit because of all these dental issues that I had as a kid.

And what they used to do, I don't know they do this anymore, but what they used to do is they give you these little trays, which are kind like a mouth guards that you would use for boxing or hockey. So your team, you get knocked, and they would fill those trades with this jelly like stuff that contain fluoride ed. And they put on a top and on the bottom, and the stuff just little bit of, if I would seem, until your toning your throat.

And he was so sour, so awful. And then they seek me in this little wicker chair in front of a television and turn on cartoons as if that was supposed to make me forget how awful the whole experience was. If anything, apologies created a pollo vian condition response to hate cartoons, which suppose did not work.

Because i'd like cartoons then. I don't watch them now. Truly, I don't watch them now. So I sit down on this wicker chair.

I get the flu right in my teeth with these two trays, and i'm just hating this whole process. I think he must been about five or six years old. So I decide in my infinite wisdom to just, just swallow all the florida pace.

So I start shocking down through these mouth. Guards can feel like going back into my throat and and its sour and its stinging. It's awful.

But something okay. I'm just like you do that. I'm going to sit there amazing and i'm going to beat the test.

And so I drink all this flor i'd paste. And then of course, I got immensely sick. Within about three minutes, I stood up, I turned around and puke all over the wicker chair.

I think that was deliberate. Actually, looking back, IT was deliberate. And puke all over the weaker chair.

My mom comes at running in what happened? What you do? Do him. She's very protective of me. Thanks, mom.

Um what do you do to him? And then I said, you know, I just swell the stuff they want to do IT again. And I stopped doing the floor.

I treatment at that point. Why did I vm IT? Well, i've dominated because florida is indeed a poison at high concentrations.

Now, do I tell you that story to make you afraid of giving your kids flour, day tooth space or friday water? No, by all means, do what you think is best for you and for your children. For me, however, i've made some effort to avoid flour tooth pace, and I do go the dentist. As I mention about once a year, a confessing the pandemic IT was proudly ly last as they were, you know, busy, and I was hard to schedule set up. I've had very, very few cavities in my adult life, hardly any, and my gum health is very strong.

Is that it's a largely through taking on protocols that i'm going to describe in the world health episode and that were recommended to me by friends who were both dentist and other friends who were period dentist because again, they're a lot of things that we can do to strength in our team in natural ways by building up those hydras y appetite bonds, which are the natural bonds that tea form. And yes, believe you're not being able to reverse some early formed cavities as long as they haven't made IT deep into the tooth. Also things like using a soft tooth brush because if you brush too hard, you know, if you take that a project, you brush your teeth really hard, get them really, really clean.

Yes, you scrape off all the bio film, you'll void target build up, but you can really cause some tenting of the gum tissue above the teeth and those little recesses back in there where bacteria get in. And there is now a lot of really strong evidence showing that some of that bacteria can translate into cardiac disease, can translate into meta lic disease and maybe even into some neurologic disease. So it's serious of oral health, is one of the most important areas of health and is one of the most overlooked areas or health.

And I think people generally fell into two categories, and I use these two categories to frame up. The episode on oral health is coming. One category of person seems really bullish on their oral health. I keep my teeth White and clean, and they flash and brush twice a day every day. And they use tooth waiters and mouth wash and all those things.

And the other category is kind of blaze about IT yeah, you know, breast when he said in the morning so that my breath doesn't kill every person I get into an interaction with and so on and so forth. But in reality, both the group of people that are doing an immense number of things to try and keep their teeth White and their breath fresh are, yes, doing things that are good for their oral health, but also, no doubt, damaging their own health, in particular the oral microbial, which is absolutely critical. And then, of course, the other category of people that are neglecting their oral hyg e and are not taking mouths, washes and things like that are also damaging the oral health, but in different ways.

So during the episode on oral health, i'll spell out all the things that you can do most of, by the way, are completely zero cost. Many of them actually will save you money, both in the short and long term, and can really help you improve your old microbiome, the strength of your teeth, and reduce the number of cavities, maybe then reverse cavities that have begun to form and are not too deep into the tooth yet. And in a really nice way, all of that, independent of your stance on flour, thank you for joining for the beginning of this.

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