Gavin Newsom on the L.A. Protests, Trump’s Response and Why It’s a Defining Moment for Democracy
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From predictive ordering to customized travel to precise medical imaging, Google Cloud's AI-optimized platform helps you make big things happen. That's the new way to cloud. Learn more at cloud.google.com slash AI. From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily.

I want to say a few words about the events of the last few days. California's governor, Gavin Newsom, says that President Trump's decision to send federal troops into Los Angeles is a, quote, brazen abuse of power. California may be first, but it clearly will not end here. Other states are next. Democracy is next. And a defining moment for the Democratic Party and American democracy.

What Donald Trump wants most is your fealty, your silence to be complicit in this moment. Do not give in to him. Today, I sit down with the governor for a conversation about Trump, illegal immigration, the protests, and how he thinks that the standoff in L.A. comes to an end. It's Thursday, June 12th.

One, two, three. How's this? You guys hear me? Yes. Governor, thank you for coming on The Daily. We appreciate it. A pleasure. Thank you. I've never heard of it. I had to look it up. Fantastic. We're going to cut that. Congrats, by the way. Okay.

Governor Newsom, I want to start by asking you to describe the situation right now on the ground in Los Angeles, both in terms of protests and the deployment of federal troops. Let's start, Governor, with the protests. Yeah, nominal. I'm literally here at the Reagan building. I'm in downtown L.A.

just be another typical day. But there's some pockets of modest activity in this four or five square blocks, that's it. Under control, we had 1,610 police officers patrolling last night, 227 arrests.

And so there's certainly more activity in the evening. But the activity today that's deeply alarming are all these raids that are happening all across the state of California, Tulare County and Fresno County and Ventura County, here in Los Angeles, at Home Depots and car washes. Today, they're going to clinics where people are trying to get health care, take care of their families.

You're describing immigration raids by federal officials. Immigration raids, yeah. Stopping people when they're in their cars, checking papers all across now this country, not just here across our state.

We're going to talk about those raids in a moment, but let me check in on the state of the military deployment ordered by President Trump in Los Angeles. From what you're saying, protests at this hour, 2.44 p.m. Eastern Time on Wednesday are minimal, nominal. What is the state of the military deployment in L.A.?

Well, the president a number of days ago commanded 2,000 National Guard. I want to put that in perspective. California, I command 18,000. So 2,000 National Guard, the 79th Infantry.

Two days later, there were about 315 that actually were mission tasked. The rest were sitting around, about 1,700 for days. You saw them sitting quite literally on the ground without fuel, without water, without food, without training. So you had about 50 to 100 National Guard out there last night.

We had 1,600 local law enforcement, including 700 that I directly command under the California Highway Patrol specialty units that were trained and are trained for these activities. They're the ones making the arrests, not the National Guard. Today, we estimate

that now they've mission tasked about a thousand of the original 2,000 to do support work or direct. It's hard to tell. And you saw photos of Pete Hexett just tweeted out someone getting arrested, handcuffed with the National Guard. They had their guns drawn based upon the Secretary of Defense. It looks like they're right there at these raids.

You seem to be saying, Governor, that these troops are not doing all that much, and it's the Los Angeles and state highway patrol officials who are the ones bringing this situation under control. And to the degree that federal troops are doing anything, you see them doing something related to the raids, not the protests. I want to step back. I revere these guys.

I've had the privilege of a lifetime to be their commander in chief. I've got hundreds of them down at the border. For years and years, I put them down at the border. We're doing counter-drug operations. We have what we call these rattlesnake crews. These are the ones doing forest management. They're raking the forest, preparing for wildfire season. These are men and women, this is important for people to know, that actually work for local law enforcement agencies in many cases. They're police officers in their day jobs. So they've been pulled off the border,

Three quarters of our rattlesnake teams doing vegetation management have now been redeployed, and they've been taken out of police departments. And the first night they were deployed, our police officers had to protect the National Guard. They became a destination for the protests.

And it was local police that actually had to protect them. That's how ridiculous this whole thing is. This is theater. It's madness. It's unconstitutional. I've said it's immoral. It puts people's lives at risk and they're using these brave men and women as pawns. That said, the new operation seems to be more tactically focused on active ICE raids

And now they're being utilized in a very different posture, which is clearly a violation of the law. I wonder, Governor Newsom, if you can tell the story from your perspective as somebody very much at the center of this all.

Of how we got to this place. I want to take you back for just a moment to late last week. There were a series of raids. Those raids seemed to create a chain of communication among people who were upset about them that led to these protests.

And we ended up all seeing the images of what those protests, in some cases, led to, right? Folks waving Mexican flags. We had Waymos, the driverless taxi cars, on fire. There was some vandalism. There was some looting. In your mind, did these protests ever get out of control?

Well, that looting was unacceptable. There have been hundreds and hundreds of arrests, including, as I said, 227 arrests last night. They're reviewing tape. They're making their case, created a unit in the district attorney's office. They should be prosecuted at full extent of the law. There's some bad people doing terrible things, and they need to be called out, and they need to be held to account, period, full stop, unacceptable.

Law enforcement did make those arrests. Hundreds and hundreds of additional people beyond just the 227 last night have been arrested and many, many more will be arrested. It's concentrated in just a small complex in a very small footprint in a very large downtown in Los Angeles. How small? I mean, just for those people who aren't as familiar with Los Angeles, obviously, as you are, how small?

You're talking about a complex of a few buildings, and you're talking about a few blocks. And I don't say this lightly. I've been down here the last four days, and so I'm right downtown myself. And I wish I could pull the camera and you can take a look at what's going on.

And there are tons and tons of peaceful protesters. But those images were disgraceful. Those images of those Waymos, the actions of a few people were disgraceful. And they were weaponized by the Trump administration. And they've exacerbated the problem. Those people should be ashamed of themselves, and they will be held to account. You're saying local officials know how to deal with this kind of unrest. You're not saying that there wasn't unrest. And I want to talk about...

in this chronology, the moment you end up speaking with President Trump, because it's pretty close to the moment that he decides that he's going to send the National Guard into L.A., that he's going to federalize it. Does that come up? It didn't appear to me when I talked to him. He never brought it up. Period. Full stop. This is last Friday.

Yeah. He claimed he did. You claim. He lied. He lied. On my mother and dad's grave, I don't mess around when I say this. He lied. Stone cold liar. Don't think for a second he told the truth. He lied. What did he say? Continues to lie. I'm not going to talk about a private conversation with the president of the United States out of respect. And I value that. And it was, I'll just say this. It was an incredibly cordial conversation.

And there were a number of issues that were discussed. I'll remind you at the time, he was in a process Friday of defunding California, which

He was looking to defund the university system. And so our conversation was about the activities that occurred on Friday. It was brief. We were five seconds into it when I was talking about fuel arrests, and he immediately pivoted to all of these other topics. That was it, period. And so what, Governor, were you thinking when you learned, I guess, within 24 hours, maybe even less than that?

of having been on the phone with him, perhaps this was on his mind, perhaps it wasn't, that he had suddenly federalized the National Guard over which you preside and was going to deploy them on the streets of LA? Came completely out of left field. No warning, no heads up, no nothing. Nothing. Let me color it in a little bit more. Please. Before I talked to the president, obviously talked to the mayor about what was occurring down there. I was in Northern California at the time. And I...

was connected with Susie Wiles, the president's chief of staff. And we exchanged a number of text messages back and forth about the imperative of collaborating and working through all of this. Then I talked to the president. Hours later, to your point, I wake up and I'm New Scum again. New Scum is the nickname he gives you. Yeah, it's the president of the United States calling someone scum, New Scum.

which is, for what it's worth, what I think a seventh grader used to call me on Baltimore Street in Corto Madera, California. He begins the day with that and then talks about the National Guard and then starts making up all these things he claimed he told me about, which honestly starts to disturb me on a different level that maybe he

I actually believed he said those things. Wow. And he's not all there. I mean that. I wasn't saying that. He's not all there, you just said. I don't know. It's honestly, he literally, a few days later,

Talked about a conversation he had with me after he announced the 700 U.S. Marines to be deployed for domestic law enforcement in the United States of America. It's blatantly against law. He claimed he had another conversation with me. So once this deployment is announced, you said that it was unnecessary. You went further and you said that the National Guard, this is before the Marines were deployed, would inflame the situation. Is that in your mind what happened? Yes.

I mean, that's not my assessment. That's the assessment of all law enforcement officers and officials that we were meeting with on a consistent basis at the Emergency Operations Center.

They said this is exactly the opposite of what, by the way, none of them were coordinated with. What's the evidence of it? What do you mean evidence? They were a destination for protesters. They became a destination. What's the evidence? We had to, and I'll remind you, I'll just repeat what I said. Yeah. We had to defend the National Guard. Right. We had to use our own law enforcement to protect them.

That's the evidence. Just think about how perverse that is. And then he announces another 2,000, which are more law enforcement officers that are being taken off the street. More people are being taken away from the border. No longer doing that public safety work because of his actions. Well, I think, Governor, this brings us to Tuesday night when you decide to deliver a major speech today.

about all this. And in that speech, you describe what the president did, the deployment of these troops based on the situation on the ground and, in your mind, the disproportionate nature of that as a defining moment for your state, for the country, and for our democracy. Why, in your estimation, is this moment the moment to call the president out as you have and to suggest things

that some Rubicon has perhaps been crossed when it comes to, and these are your words, an abuse of power, authoritarianism, because there have been a lot of moments over the past few months in which the president has used his power in new and at times extraordinary ways. I'm thinking of his pursuit of law firms, universities, at times even the federal judiciary when it has ruled against him and he has disliked it. So why for you is this the defining moment?

And all of those things I called out last night in that speech. So I agree with you. I think it's a red line when you're using military that are trained for foreign incursions to do domestic law enforcement in American cities. I think that's a red line. If that's not a red line, I don't know what red lines mean. This is the United States military being used for domestic law enforcement. Police not allowed to police. Now we have to address the issue of the military coming in

and militarizing the streets of the United States of America, sending fear and chills up the spines of law-abiding citizens that are scared to death now of going to graduations to see their kids graduate, scared to death to walk down the street to get groceries, scared to death to get a dental appointment or go down a community clinic to check in on their fever. That's a red line crossed.

I don't know what the hell else, you know, excuse my language, but it's to find a serious and profound moment in American history from my humble perspective.

Have you heard from the president since you gave that speech, since you essentially accused him of operating outside the bounds of democracy? I have not. And I'm someone that some of your viewers and listeners may know I have no problem meeting with people and talking to people I disagree with. Right. Including the president himself. As I said, we had a very cordial conversation on Friday night.

It wasn't the first conversation I've had. I was out here on the tarmac with him or in the midst of the fires as he was calling for my removal of office. I mean, he called for my arrest the other day. President of the United States calling for the arrest of a political opponent who happens to be governor. And I would pick up the phone in a nanosecond if the president was too tough. What did you make of the fact that he did seem to suggest that you should perhaps be arrested? Well, you know, I guess I'm being fair. I didn't even call that a red line.

That might be a red light for some people listening. - That wasn't the red line for you? - No, because I can handle that. I just can't handle my city being torn asunder. I can't handle my country being torn asunder. I got four young kids. I have a 15 year old who quite literally came home from school crying 'cause she was told on her last day of school, God is my witness, because she was told her daddy was getting arrested. And I said, "Honey, that doesn't matter.

What matters is what's happening with the military out on the streets. I can handle that. I'll be fine. But I'm worried about you. I'm worried about this country. I'm worried about everything we've taken for granted and fought so hard for disappearing overnight. I'm sensing some real emotion in your voice here. I was just downtown meeting with people who literally, this is mass panic for people, good people.

I was sitting there talking to some community leaders. One of the young girls gets up, says she looks at her phone in a panic. She goes, my mom, my mom runs out. And I find out that there was people knocking on the doors. Her mom was undocumented, been here for years and years and years. She was born in this country and she's having this experience. You had a nine, nine month pregnant woman arrested. People are disappearing. People are disappearing, disappearing.

They don't know where they are. They can't find them in the United States of America. They can't find them at the detention facility. We're finding out people are in Texas, people are in Louisiana, no access to counsel. From their original place in Los Angeles. From Donald Trump, from Stephen Miller, from Kristi Noem.

Kristi Noem, who just months ago was sickened by the notion that Biden, there was some rumor, may come in and federalize her National Guard. And she said, what about freedom? What about states' rights? That same Kristi Noem. It's serious. These are authoritarian tendencies. This is thuggish behavior. We're going to return to these immigrants a little bit later in our conversation. I want to finish with your speech.

in which you did everything we just talked about, and you called on Americans to stand up to Trump right now. And you even suggest that to not stand up to Trump is to be complicit. And...

I wonder what situation that puts you in. It seems like a potentially tricky one, right? I mean, you want protesters to be peaceful. You want those who commit violence to be prosecuted. You're now simultaneously asking people to fight back against Trump, presumably in places like L.A., but perhaps not just L.A., perhaps in Chicago, San Antonio, New York, on and on. Are those messages in conflict with

I don't know if they're in conflict. I mean, society becomes how we behave. We are a behavior. I think people that care about this country, people care about knowledge and culture and history, people care about their kids and grandkids, or dare I say, people care about the Constitution of the United States and the rule of law. I think we need to wake up that what he wants is our silence. And if we're silent about that, then we are complicit as we see these fundamental rights

erode. And so I'm not trying to call people out. Let's not over read what I'm saying. We were very explicit about peaceful protests, very explicit about calling out those criminal elements. But I also think we need to be very explicit about the moment we're living in in the United States of America. It's shock and awe. It's overwhelming.

And I just want folks to understand that we will lose this democracy. It's 141 days. We will lose it so much faster than people think if we are silent. And so I just pray that people don't give in. And this was the final words I said to cynicism, to their own fear and anxiety, that they're the antidote to that as long as they don't give up. It just occurs to me that the protests in L.A. were peaceful until they weren't, right? And

in calling for more potentially protests, doesn't that necessarily invite more opportunities for violence? Well, I guess we can all just go home and just watch this whole thing, this whole extraordinary, you know, I said it,

This endearing idea that our founding fathers, the best of Roman Republic and Greek democracy, co-equal branches of government, popular sovereignty, the rule of law, completely erode. That's an option. I mean, that's a choice. I'm not going to make that choice. And I was calling for people that may think more like me to say, don't make that choice. And he wants you to make that choice.

The reason he threatened the arrest, the reason he's so aggressive, wants to defund California, is we punch above our weight. We're the fourth largest economy in the world. We continue to thrive despite him.

And his entire theory of his case is contradicted by our success and our resilience. He doesn't like the resistance coming from California. He doesn't like the fact that we've sued him 24 times. He doesn't like the fact that I push back. You can't work with him. You can only work for him. I've tried to work with him. My gosh, I did during COVID. I continue to try, but it's challenging.

And so I want to challenge people to express themselves in a peaceful way. And we're seeing it across the country. It's not a novel theory to stand up and step up. It's a foundational constitutional theory that's been practiced for hundreds of years, and I don't want it to disappear. We'll be right back.

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Governor, I want to zoom out now for just a bit. You have been on a pretty interesting journey since the election. You've been openly searching for the right way to navigate the second Trump presidency. And it started with a message of conciliation, a real willingness, as you said, to work with the president and interest in cooperation. And beyond that, you expressed a real curiosity about what was at the center of Trump's appeal. You spoke on your podcast to Charlie Kirk, to Steve Bannon.

Has the past week, have these events made you rethink what's possible in that vein? Well, I also spoke to someone who was active participant trying to get me recalled, Newt Gingrich.

And someone who's actively participating in these ICE raids, Dr. Phil, this last week on the podcast. Dr. Phil went and embedded with some of the raids. I just think it's incredibly important. So you're still doing it in the midst of this, you're saying, reaching out to those who are not on your side. I think a little humility, a little grace, you know?

I think we're all a little bit better off learning from people we disagree with and having civil – I'm trying to have civil conversations. I know it offends a lot of people. I get all that. It's just not who I am. I have civil conversations with the president again, including just a few days ago. What have you learned, especially when it comes to the question of undocumented immigration? This may offend some people that we all want to be loved and we all need to be loved.

And respected. We all want to be respected. We're all going to be heard. I don't know that we're all human and that we have deep disagreements. It's a strange thing to say in the midst of all this, where I'm being threatened with arrest and calling out these authoritarian tendencies of Donald Trump to say this. But at a certain point, divorce is not an option. We've got to come back together. And so that's, by the way, that's just me being who I am. A lot of folks don't know me. They think they know me. There's a caricature of me.

But this is what I do in private. I have enormous respect for people I disagree with. I'm not naive. You think I think I'm going to convince them of something? But maybe if I convince them of anything is that, you know, at least I have to strike the character.

to listen to someone I disagree with. If there's nothing else, maybe it's just that. And I'm learning from these guys. I learn a lot. It's interesting learning from Charlie Kirk and how he organized the troops for Trump. I think Democrats can learn from that. And some people may reject that and say, we're doing great.

Democrats, we're morally superior, we're smarter, and eventually people will figure it out. Well, right now, I'm trying to figure out how to keep this democracy up and deal with the militarization of my streets because this guy is running this country right now without any oversight because we lost the House, we lost the Senate, and I don't want to lose my country, and I'm counting on the damn courts.

Well, to that point, one of the ways that President Trump has reliably outmaneuvered his opponents and gotten to the place you just described where he controls the White House, the Senate, House of Representatives, and faces very few checks on his power is by putting Democrats in very difficult situations where they can end up

on what looks like the wrong side of a polarizing issue in a very public way. And it can be argued, and obviously I want to know what you think about this, that Trump is doing that to you and California Democrats right now given the dynamic he has created and your response. So how in this situation, let me just explain what I mean, do you end up, Governor, not appearing to be on the side of protesters who have at times been violent and against the deportation of Republicans

illegal immigrants? Well, I think we're trying to answer that in real time together. Let me address this by taking a broader view. They've been shapeshifting the conversation for years and years and years. Everything with three letters, C-R-T-D-E-I-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-S-D-O-J-E-S-G-I-R-

They've weaponized. They are shapeshifting the conversation. They're weaponizing grievance. And we continue to chase it. Democrats, we continue to be on the back end of all of this. They've been winning for years and years and years. And so we've got to get on the offense.

We've got to disabuse ourselves so we can continue down the path we're on of communication and engagement. Look, we all live in these bubbles, this filter bubble online, and obviously just complete bullshit and propaganda coming from Fox. I mean, what a joke and total manipulation of facts, truth, and the distrust that they sow. So I'm not naive about

All the folks that are watching those networks and how they feel about this, I think you're right. They feel like we own the libs. They're playing right in. This is exactly what we want. Trump's going to look strong. He's going to be out there in his little birthday suit on Saturday and he's going to do his dictator Kim Jong-un parade and, you know, try to one up Putin. So Putin feels threatened weakness. That's all that is, is masquerading as strength.

And, you know, I get that. I'm not naive about that, but I'm not backing down and I'm going to continue to push back and I'm going to stay positive.

On the offense. And that's why I go on Fox. That's why I meet with these guys. Well, to the point of Democrats trying to meet people where they are, one issue where Republicans keep winning in the Trump era is immigration. And Democrats seem, to many Americans, a little slippery on this subject. So I want to pin you down directly. Where do you stand?

And where should the Democratic Party stand on the question of illegal immigration? Who should be allowed to stay and who should be deported? You have expressed in this conversation a lot of sympathy for those who were caught up in the raids across California over the past few days. Well, I have no sympathy for folks that commit violent criminal acts. And let me give you a proof point. There's not a governor you will meet with that can say what I'm about to say.

And I've been criticized by my party. My legislature on multiple occasion has tried to usurp my authority to coordinate and collaborate with ICE, which I've done over 10,500 times since I've been governor.

to go after people that are here that commit life crimes. We coordinate and we collaborate with them. We've been doing that for years and years and years. You're talking to a governor that put almost 400 National Guard down at the border. I mentioned a moment ago, Donald Trump has taken our National Guard off the border and he's now moving them into the streets

Of L.A. But L.A. does not cooperate with ICE. It's a sanctuary city. You have sanctuary cities that are different than the framework and posture at the state level. There are different rules and regulations going back decades and decades. Totally. But let me go back because I want to answer your question. Yeah.

You specifically asked about posture on the issue of immigration, which is broader than sanctuary. Sanctuary is a byproduct of the failure of the federal government to reform the immigration system. I'm old enough to remember the bipartisan border bill of just a few months ago that, by the way, included some money for the border wall. People forget that. And so we have a strategy and pathway, but it's been weaponized. And now people are being demonized to the second part of your question. Yes, I have deep empathy.

Deep empathy for someone who's been here 10, 15, 20 years that's living. And all they want to do is live their lives out there. It's contributing. And it's part of our community, the vibrancy of our community being assaulted and attacked. How many kids literally are missing their graduation in the next few days because of these actions? Scared to death because grandma may get deported.

And so, yeah, I'm worried about our communities. But get rid of the criminals. I have no problem with that. But do it civilly, do it responsibly. You know this. Cities like L.A., in not cooperating with ICE, do not let them into their jails where there are undocumented criminals. Is it your position that they should? Because the understanding we have gathered here at The Times through our journalism and reporting is that because ICE can't get to some of the places they want to go

to find criminals in jails in places like L.A., they are doing the raids at the Home Depots, doing the raids that you're finding so problematic. Perhaps you disagree with that. Yeah, no, I think there's some truth to that, but come on.

I mean, none of us is naive. They also use that as an excuse to randomly go to Home Depots, to randomly go to car washes and people that are running into neighborhoods because they're scared to death. Look, LA's approach is different than the approach I took as mayor of San Francisco. As governor of California, I have a different approach than the cities, including my whole city, San Francisco. I coordinate with ICE as it relates to dangerous criminals. Okay.

Beyond immigration, Governor, do you think there's a way in which by pushing back as forcefully against the administration as you clearly are right now, you're drawing more fire for your state and in turn potentially putting the people you're saying you're trying to protect at greater risk? We've seen, you know this, what retribution looks like from this president. Come on.

Really? I was involved in 122. California's involved in 122 lawsuits. The prior administration, when we were quote unquote getting along. I mean, no one's naive. I mean, come on. Donald Trump, in the conversation on Friday, we were talking about

The fact he was defunding California before he talked about bringing the National Guard in. And he could further defund. He was already taking these actions. He was already coming after us. I was already involved in two dozen lawsuits prior. So come on. None of us are naive. All of us knew this was coming. And again, I was the guy playing nice with Donald Trump, right? And this still happens. So no, we're not fools. None of us are. At the end of the day,

I want to know how you think this all comes to an end. Because from where I sit, the president...

has greater leverage over you than you have over him. Of course. Ask Elon Musk, who's sitting there, you know, feebly apologizing. Pathetic. The punishment can run deep and it can run— Yeah, good. Well, fine. And so how does this lopsided battle end well for you and California? Well, I just, you know, there's formal authority and there's moral authority. The more you exercise your—

Formal authority, the less you have of it, the more you exercise your moral authority, the more abundant it becomes. And so I hope we're flexing some moral authority here. And I just want more expressions of that. We have plenty of formal authority. With a size of 21 state populations combined, we're unbelievably well-resourced.

We provide $83.1 billion to the federal government to pay their bills more than we receive. Compare that to the $71.1 billion taker state like Texas. We dominate in every major industry. We punch above our weight. Would you ever withhold or encourage Californians to withhold all that tax money? Well, if you're going to threaten to take our money, yeah, we're looking at some levers. But, you know, I don't, you know, it's not the rule of Gavin. There's a rule of Don. I believe in the rule of law.

So, you know, looking at some levers, one lever that's always been out there is that the governor of California calls for a boycott, tells people in California not to pay their federal taxes.

Yeah, I mean, that puts those taxpayers at risk. I would never do that. Now, people can make decisions for themselves, but that should not be the policy of the state. And I don't want to lead people down that path. So what other levers do you have? How creative are you willing to be? Well, I'm trying to be creative and we're looking. And I have a team of people looking creatively. Of course, that process had about 12 hours to unfold before this process unfolded. But let me just say this, how this ends, Donald Trump stands down. How this ends, American people stand up.

How this ends? The rule of law triumphs. We're going to be in court tomorrow, TRO, we're requesting federal judge as it relates to our emergency order. Temporary restraining order. You're trying to sue your way out of this deployment. Well, I'm trying to persuade people

that there is a way out of it, and it's called active, not inert citizenship. I was quoting Justice Brandeis, in a democracy, the most important office, sorry, Don, Donald, Mr. President, it's not the office of presidency, it's the office of citizen. And, you know, I'm really proud of people standing up and these protests and people peacefully protesting. People need to see that. You know, it inspires other people. And people feel like they're not alone.

Again, the alternative here is if we're just quiet, if we just put our head down, maybe it will all go away. Maybe if we don't talk to people we disagree with, maybe they won't exist. You know, you got to deal with the cards that are dealt. And right now, you're right. We may not have as strong a hand, the president of the United States of America. I'm just hoping he acts like one or he reads about one and that we still have one at the end of his four years. Well, Governor-

Thank you for your time. We appreciate it. Thanks for having me. To watch an extended on-camera version of this interview, go to our YouTube channel at NYTPodcast and search for The Daily. We'll be right back. This podcast is supported by Google Cloud.

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Here's what else you need to know today.

In the acrimonious feud between President Trump and Elon Musk, Musk has now backed down and apologized. On Wednesday morning, Musk wrote on X, the social media platform he owns, that he regretted some of what he had said last week about the president, writing of his own posts on X, quote, they went too far.

And Harvey Weinstein was convicted of a sex crime in Manhattan for the second time in a little more than five years, reaffirming his guilt in the eyes of New York's legal system. Weinstein's original conviction in 2020 was later overturned by New York's highest court, prompting prosecutors to retry him.

The jury in that retrial acquitted Weinstein on another of the charges against him and reached no decision on a third. Today's episode was produced by Asta Chaturvedi, Rob Zipko, and Olivia Nat. It was edited by Paige Cowett, Liz O'Balin, and Michael Benoit. Contains original music by Marian Lozano and Dan Powell and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley.

Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow. We all have moments when we could have done better. Like cutting your own hair. Yikes. Or forgetting sunscreen so now you look like a tomato. Ouch. Could have done better.

Same goes for where you invest. Level up and invest smarter with Schwab. Get market insights, education, and human help when you need it. Learn more at schwab.com.