Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
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Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. I'm Alayna. And I'm Andrew. And this is a special episode of Morbid, everybody. Morbid.

It's special. We have a guest. We do. Yay. It's Andrew McMahon on the show. You might know him from one of his several bands. We've got Something Corporate, Jack's Mannequin, or Andrew McMahon in the Wilderness. That's me. Welcome. Yeah, I'm glad to be here. You're all of those. Thanks for having me. Yeah, of course. Thanks for being in the studio. It's like such a cool place to be. I'm honored. So are we.

So getting into the questions, I did read that you are somewhat of a child prodigy when it came to the piano. What drew you to the piano so young? I mean, it's going to get heavy really quick. We had like a loss in our family. My uncle passed away. And right around that same time, I had a friend's dad teach me how to play piano.

a Jerry Lee Lewis song on the piano and I'd never I mean I had piano lessons a little bit as a kid but I took the chord that he taught me and all of a sudden just started writing songs and that was kind of how I processed my grief from losing my uncle and that was it for me I was like this is the thing you know like writing songs became my my whole like I would come home from school and I would just sit at the piano until I was

told I had to go to sleep or do something for school or whatever and and it's been it's been that way ever since that's when you know it's meant to be when it's something that like heals apart you know yeah exactly I just started trying to learn I got like a keyboard it's hard yeah I mean I think when you're I think when you're nine it's like a whole right everything is so much easier yeah you have that whole sort of neuroplasticity or whatever and and

And I really liked it, right? So it wasn't like – I didn't start going to piano lessons until like maybe a year or two after that. And so for me, it was just like constant discovery. And like you said, it was like – it was a way to process my world, you know? So I just – I think I blew past the it's hard part until I got into like having to study classical music. And then it was like, this sucks. Yeah, this is hard. It's like real hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I wasn't a great student, but I sort of did what I had to to –

learn how to navigate the piano and read and do all that stuff. But it was always just like a safe haven for me. And it worked out. Yeah, I think. Yeah, we're all thankful for that. It's been the only real job I've had to have my whole life, which is a really huge gift. I mean, I'm always wondering when the bottom will

drop out of that but but yeah so far so good yeah well you've been making music since like 1998 yeah well I mean since you were a kid but officially yeah so something corporate which was like my sort of official second high school band um

And we, throughout my junior, senior year of high school, kind of continued to get bigger. And I sort of skipped college and focused on that. And miraculously, we got signed when I was 18. That's incredible. And that was sort of the beginning of all of it. So Summit Corporate did really well, and we toured a ton and put out records. And then

you know, I've kind of hopped from like about every 10 years or so start a new project because I am restless, I guess you could say. And yeah, it's been a journey for sure. And I've

had good fans who were willing to follow me through multiple name changes. Here we are. Here we are. Yeah. Something corporate was my thing in high school. Really? I love that. 16-year-old Elena. Yeah, 16-year-old Elena was at every show, every single show. I think that's how we connected was because I started having...

fans message me on instagram they're like you got you got mentioned on the morbid podcast and i like the first one i was like oh that's cool and then i saw another you know another few roll through and i was like you're like who are these people i'm like we should reach out to these women they keep talking about us and it seems like they're pretty popular and then we met at the uh what was it roadrunner show on the something corporate reunion um yep

Thanks to Connor. Yes. Shout out. Connor forever. Connor's a good man. He's a very good man. Yeah. My tour manager, he's our Gen Z holding down. Hell yeah. Yeah. We like to, I like to bring young bucks into the mix and bring them up. That's always been sort of a part of our mission. And Connor rose the ranks from, from,

content to now he's tour managing. He's a good representation of Gen Z. He is. He is. He's the representation. I hate the whole kids these days philosophy. I really like it. To me, I feel like it's such a sign of you're not actually paying attention. And I've had my whole perception of

the Gen Z universe reshaped by Connor and his people and people we've brought into our camp. I love that. These guys are actually hard workers and super fun and very fashionable. They are. Yeah. Very fashionable. I'm a huge fan. You gotta meet the right Gen Zs. I'm a zillennial, so I like... She's on the cusp. I like to say I'm a millennial because, you know, Gen Z gets a lot of hate. Right.

What's funny is like I always rejected the fact that I was a millennial because I graduated in 2000 and we didn't have like a qualification. We were just sort of in this nether group between Gen X and whatever was coming next. And then I think –

By the time I was 30, then they started calling us millennials. And I was like, I denounce this. Yeah, I don't like this qualification or designation. I worked at Hollywood Video in high school, like RIP video stores. Guys, that's where you could rent movies. That was where you could rent VHS tapes and also DVDs. My favorite job ever.

And I used to make, like we would be able to pick what could be on the screen. Yeah. And I would make everybody play this one DVD. And it was like drive-through records. Oh, yeah. I remember it well. And I would make them play it just so we could have the something corporate performance. That's amazing. I love that. Like over and over. I had many of my friends were Blockbuster video employees. Hell yeah. And we used to go hang out at Blockbuster on the weekends because they would just, you know, they'd smoke weed in the back. Yeah. And like the, you know, like we're proper...

degenerate Blockbuster employee managerial staff. And yes, I do. I miss the Blockbuster days. It's such a good vibe. Yeah, it's a good vibe. It really is. That's one thing I wish I experienced. I remember Blockbuster like a little bit from being like five and six. Yeah. Beyond that. No.

I mean, the truth is the new model is working better. Oftentimes, there were no videos available at Blockbuster. Very true. But it was a fun sort of snapshot. It's just the environment. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a cozy vibe. Well, going back to the music, how would you say your relationship with music has kind of changed and evolved throughout all the years that you've been doing it? I mean...

Look, I think, you know, you're an author, so you know. It's like as you – you start by writing because it's just like a reflex and it's this exploratory thing. And I think the biggest shift is that you have to continue to find ways to explore and make it fresh and make it exciting. So, like, I've changed processes over the years, right? You know, I think –

When some of that like, oh, I just have to be sitting at the piano all day and like now I have a family and I spent a lot of time on the road. So I do, you know, I do little tricks to sort of reengage myself in the writing process. I'll write with other people that I'm really excited about. I try and always like surround myself with writers that are both older and younger than me, you know, just so I can, you know, like I love having people in the room that are still in that phase of writing where they're like,

and just super hungry and it keeps me hungry. So I think that's changed. And then what you write about changes, right? So as you get to certain stages of life and the questions are changing about what is relevant or what's important to you, you have to find new ways in to discuss those things. And I feel like changing projects for me has been a part of that, right? So it's like something Corbett was very much about.

you know, all of the things that you encounter in like high school and coming of age. Intense emotions. Yeah. It's a lot of makeups and breakups. And I think our industry, like the music business is fueled on a lot of that. And as somebody who wants to write and perform and do this till the day I die, you know, I've had to sort of

shift my thinking. You know, a lot of Jack's Mannequin was, I got sick when I was in the middle of that project. So I had cancer and I was a cancer survivor. I was like, how do you write about that? You know, and then, you know, and then sort of shifting into this next phase, a lot of it's been about

keeping my edge while maintaining a family and a life and, you know, how to look after my kid and those questions that come with fatherhood and trying to stay creative, you know. So I think those are sort of, you know, big parts of how I shift and try and stay creative. I love that. Because you can look back on every stage of your life and there's a song for it or an album for it, really. Yeah, totally. And I think, too, like I've tried really hard because a lot of my fans have grown up with me.

like rather than making the mistake i think a lot of people do as they get older and their their artistic processes are trying to sort of recreate their their youth and still sing about those things and i think it's the challenge for me is like how do i really talk about what's relevant to me now and put that in a pop song you know and and that can be tricky yeah um but but

I think if you strike on something that's universal, it applies backwards and forwards. And, you know, I want people who've been with me for a really long time to be like, oh, he's talking to an experience that I'm having right now because we're a similar age and going through similar things in life. But also if I do it well, you

you know, you could be 15 and pick up that record and it will land. You know, most of the artists I was listening to when I was 15 were much older than I was. And somehow those songs were still connecting. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. That's like what you just said. Like people who've listened to you have grown up with you now. So like, it's funny because when we went to the Something Corporate concert where we met,

But it was funny to look around and see, like, I was like, oh, it's just like a bunch of moms and dads being like, just like transporting back into like something corporate days. But it's fun because it's like we've been able to relate to you in the music the entire way through. And you can feel like the shifts, but they're so smooth because like you're going, like we're going into that phase. So we kind of go in there together. Yeah. So it's just been really nice. Like even like last night we were talking about Bluey.

And I was like, wow, we're just parents now together. Like, that's wild. You know, I think it's like a task, but I think it's a worthy one. And I'm like, I'm super reverent of the fact that there are people who I've been seeing at shows since they were, you know, high school, middle-aged kids coming out to see me when I was not much older than them.

I was 18 or 19, but it felt like a world apart, right? When you're sort of like grown and then you have like a kid in the audience. Now, you know, now we're sort of orbiting the same life trajectories. And I really like, I want to make music for those people who have been in those rooms. And I want them to have songs that they can connect to at this stage of wherever they're at and

You're killing it. No, thank you. I try really hard. And it circles down because there was like three generations of us at that show because it was Elena, me, and my little cousin. So it's like I started listening to you when I was like six and then still do. Because I was like, you're listening. And my cousin's like three singing like I woke up in a car. So it does trickle down. Yeah, well, like the shows I went to when I was –

you know, the first shows I was going to, a lot of them were bands, my brothers and sisters, three of them are 10, 12 years older than I am. And, you know, I went to see REM when I was, you know, when I was in the seventh grade or whatever. And, you know, and I became a huge Tom Petty fan and like going to those shows, seeing the young people that are picking, were picking up, you know, heartbreakers to me, to my people, my brothers and sisters ages and older, you know, in a dream world, you know,

that's really what you want. You want to see people across generations connecting to what you do. And that's sort of the fight I'm in every day is just to sort of make sure that, you know, it spreads to as many people across generations as possible. It works. It does. You're doing it. My youngest is obsessed with Happy. I love that. She was like, wait a second. He sings Happy? I was like, yup.

And she's five, so you're hitting all the hinges. That's the deal, yeah. That's what we want. Well, finally, to transition us into our world of morbid and macabre, you have a song with your band Something Corporate called Me and the Moon. Yes. It's one of my favorites. It's a little more eerie and haunting. It's not the typical style for you. So tell us a little bit about where the idea for that song came from, how it came to be. Well, so when we...

We put out the first Something Corporate record, and I think a lot of that music was really reflective of sort of our high school, post-high school journey, because a lot of those songs were written in that time. And that was sort of the first record we went out and toured the world with and got noticed for. And then, you know,

By that point that I was coming back to write those songs for North, I was just in a much different headspace. And it was like I wanted to do something moodier. And it was like the first time I was living in Jordan Pundit from Newfound Glory. I was living in his guest room, you know. And it was sort of the first time I lived away from my parents. And, yeah.

And so I had all this freedom just to sit in a room and write all day. And I mean, I would be lying to say I wasn't like smoking a ton of weed at that point and just playing the piano and just trying to find new chords and new chord shapes and progressions. And I got to the sort of piano figure that plays under the verses of that song, which I was like, this is so cool. Like it felt like something really new for me.

And the first words that showed up were, it's a good year for a murder. That's so good. It's such a good opening line. I remember even in that moment being like, oh, this is going to land pretty interesting. You're like, this is different. Yeah, I'm like, princess to let's talk about murder, you know? But I was just in love with it. And it sort of wrote itself, like the verses wrote itself. And it became about this sort of idea of like a suburban mother who,

finally reaching her breaking point with her husband. Missing out on a show that everyone is talking about just simply is not an option for me. I'm constantly signing up for this streaming service or that one. I have like 400 gajillion. And then a few months later, I realized that I've still been paying for the service way after I finished the show and I actually don't watch anything else on that network. Getting Rocket money, though, was a game changer for me. They'll find your unwanted subscriptions and even help you cancel them so that you never have to worry about them slipping through the cracks.

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This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I have such an incredible support system around me. I'm so lucky to have a husband who supports literally everything I do. I have a sister who is always behind my back. Actually, I have two sisters who's always behind my back in a good way, cheering me on. So

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I absolutely love therapy. I just started doing therapy again, and it is a game changer. I always feel a million times better just having that one place to go once a week, once every other week, whatever it is, just to chat about what's going on in my life and kind of download it all and actually have a place where I can really dissect the different things that I'm going through. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, and it's serving over 5,000

million people worldwide. Build your support system with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash morbid today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash morbid. And, you know, I grew up in an amazing house. And by the time I was, you know, in high school, it was like a, you know, a lot of like a house full of women. It was like my sister and my mom and me. And, you

You know, my mom never tried to kill my dad. So there's none of that. Dispel that lore right now. But I think I could relate to the angst of that just having been, you know, my mom and I were super close growing up. And so it was like originally it was a courtroom drama. Like the chorus was like, was all about what happens after the murder. And then it didn't fit right. And yeah.

And me and the band were on tour in – we were in Amsterdam, I think. Oh, cool. Or something like that. Or no, maybe – yeah, we were in Leeds and ended up meeting up with a couple of the drive-thru bands and went on a very wild sort of psychedelic journey. Nice. And I remember I was following the moon –

all night by myself through Leeds, England. I was like, I was certain it was calling me. I won't paint the details of what led me to that moment. But I remember just going like, I just want to go see where this moon is at. And I just followed it through the streets until I ended up like locked in a hotel bathroom. And I had this piece of paper and I just wrote, it's me in the

moon and I like oh my god stop that's amazing the handwriting was it was like cursive and just kind of like super writing the words was actually a part of the journey and and I woke up with that piece of paper and I and I ended up on a

stage sound checking and i finished the song on stage and i was like and just wrote the chorus to the rest of the song that wow that day and and yeah it's been one of my favorites forever and the fact that fans followed us into that that phase was such a huge thing because i was like are

are they going to hate me for taking this hard left turn into 6'8", sort of murder mystery song. It was welcome. But yeah, that song was a journey from start to finish and still I think is a high watermark for something corporate catalog. Definitely. I remember hearing that song for the first time and being like, what is this? I was like, excuse me?

It was definitely a challenge to fans to be like, do you want to go here? But it gave me a lot of hope for the future, too. That it was like, okay, cool. I can stretch out and people will take a chance and follow. If we'll go with you for murder, the sky's the limit. The limit's the limit. You're good. It's such a great song. Thank you so much.

And I think now we can go into dancing plagues. Yes. You know, quite the transition. Because, you know, music, dancing. You do a lot of dancing on stage. I love to dance. It's part of the whole thing. So we're going to talk about dancing plagues, and we're also going to talk about a couple of nunneries that just had some stuff going on that I thought was pretty hysteria is kind of where we're going here. I was raised a Catholic, so I'm all for getting into the nun phase of this. Let's do this.

So this is good. We're going to start way back. This was on Christmas Eve in 1021 CE. Oh, shit. Way back. This is where it begins.

So this small German town called Kolbicht, I looked up all these pronunciations, so don't come for me. No, you always kill the pronunciations. I try. In a good way. Sometimes I kill it the other way. So 18 of the town's residents gathered outside of the church and started dancing, just started dancing and carrying on with wild abandon. And the noise from these dancers made it impossible for the priest to deliver mass. So he went outside and he started to reprimand the group and

And they were just seeming completely oblivious to him. Like, it wasn't like they were ignoring him. They just, like, didn't even know he was there. Just kept going. And rather than heed the priest's words, which at that time people would heed that priest's words. Yeah, you had to. They just continued dancing and clapping and leaping. And they were forming what would later be documented to be called...

A ring dance of sin. Oh, obsessed. Kind of love. I want in. Where do I sign up for the ring dance of sin?

So according to the legend, the priest, who was very angry, very incensed about the interruption and disrespect, quite frankly, cursed them all to dance for the entire year. And none of them were able to regain control of their bodies until the following Christmas. What? The priest did this? Which I didn't realize priests could curse people. So he insisted that they keep going because they had even started. He was like, oh, you want to dance? You're going to dance until next Christmas. Yeah. Wow. And they did.

And by the time the curse was ended, the group was exhausted and reportedly fell into a deep sleep. And a lot of them never woke up from that deep sleep. So they died. So he just straight up killed some. Okay, priest. Can I ask practical questions about food and bathroom? None of that. In fact, many of these dancing plagues, food, bathroom breaks, like sleep, don't happen. Not necessarily. They just dance through it. And that's how most of them die.

Wow. There's deaths that come out of these. Are they just peeing all over themselves? Probably. It's probably... It's reckless. Whatever is happening there is a lot. So some people live for a year doing this? I guess so. Or they would join, I think, maybe. Others would join. So...

Given, you know, how old this story is, obviously I'm sure there's been some embellishments. Yeah. But according to historian John Waller, there was nothing in the story that medieval people found hard to believe. Yeah.

Like, to be quite honest. They're like, yeah, whatever. Yeah, people probably would dance themselves for a year to death. Because it was a society that was very accustomed to assigning supernatural explanations to literally anything they couldn't understand. So the idea of such crazy behavior being the result of a curse from a holy man was like, yeah,

Obviously. Yeah. That's what happened. And as he points out, plenty of sources indicate that this obscure chronicler may have embellished a real event. So there was truth to this. Basically, the details might have been a little bit exaggerated, but that like manic and like uncontrollable dance that they were doing probably happened because it has happened. Yeah. So this was kind of the beginning of like dancing plagues being documented. Yeah.

Now, 200 years later, in a German town of Erfurt...

Looked it up. A similarly crazy and bizarre outbreak of dancing mania broke out in 1247. So this time, at least 200 people are said to have gathered on a bridge. Oh. And it was over the Moselle River in Maastricht, where they danced until the bridge collapsed. Stop it. And all of them died. Said, rock it till the wheels fall off. They did. And then they died. And then that was it. Bridge collapsed. Everyone died. And then they died.

That was it. So that happened. How long were they up there for, does it say? It doesn't say how long, but I feel like it probably wasn't that long because 200 people on a bridge. I don't think the structural integrity of bridges in 1247 was something of note. Not quite the same as 1247. I'm assuming they all just went down. But there is a second version of this story, so there is a little wiggle room. So this one, in this version of the story, the same thing happened, except everyone didn't die.

People died, but there were survivors. And people say that some of those survivors were taken to a nearby chapel. Where they kept in. And this nearby chapel was dedicated to St. Vitus, which, or Vitus, excuse me, where these people received treatment for their quote unquote mania. And many of them were restored to full health. So they said they went to the specific chapel and

And that's what cured them. And they never danced again. Never danced again. It's a flash mob gone wrong. Flash mob gone horribly wrong. And then a chapel was able to heal any of the survivors. And St. Vitus comes up a few times. What's St. Vitus the saint of? Apparently he has something to do with dance. He has something to do with this. And he is able to, he gets brought up a lot.

Because the dancing madness actually gets translated into being called St. Vitus dance. Oh, nice. What is he? Is he a patron saint of anything? Hold on. Let's look. Wait a second. I'm excited for this. Because he comes up a lot. Is the patron saint of standing still? Of chilling. Of chilling. So his name is sometimes rendered Guy or Guido. Was a Christian martyr, I know, from Sicily. I know. His surviving...

Obviously. Yeah, that is pure legend. Blah, blah, blah. I don't know if he's a patron saint. He's the patron saint of dance. I think we can all agree to that. Let's go with that. Yeah, exactly. You'll take that. Yeah. It is also led to Vitus being considered the patron saint of dancers and entertainers in general.

He is also said to protect against lightning strikes, animal attacks, and oversleeping. That's sick of him. Yeah. I appreciate that. He does not guide me. I'm oversleeping all the time. He didn't help the first group that slept until they died. No. Exactly. Didn't help them. Now, it's from this second telling of that story that the affliction got the name Koros Mania, which is Greek, and it translates to dancing madness. Yes.

And now it's more well known as St. Vitus Dance. So he gets to be named in the affliction. That's fun. Now over time, the terminology would change a little bit, but the behavior would end up being called chorea, which is an actual disorder. And it's incorrectly called.

like referred to as that because this disorder chorea is a disorder of the central nervous system that causes like irregular like brief jerking moment like movements but it's not dancing they meant choreo yeah it's just they meant choreo and then choreo is not that

It's not hanging with your homies on a bridge and dancing until it falls down. So if you ever hear somebody say it, you correct them if you ever hear them saying it. Okay. I'm sure it comes up a lot. All the time. It's very common to my bit. It comes up on the road a lot. So these two early examples were contained to Germany. But a similar form of hysteria that kind of had like similar, you know, symptoms to it was known as Tarentism. Okay.

And it emerged in the 13th century in Italy. And according to Robert Bartholomew, which I am obsessed with the name Bartholomew. Same, I love it a lot. Why isn't it used anymore? I don't know. He said, people asleep or awake would suddenly jump up, feeling an acute pain like the sting of a bee. Some saw the spider, others did not.

but they knew that it must be from the tarantula. Like capital T, the spider? The spider. Okay. Not a spider. Nope. The spider. The only spider. The only spider. They ran out of the house into the street to the marketplace, dancing in great excitement. Soon they were joined who like them had been bitten or by people who had been stung in previous years for the disease was never quite cured. The poison remained in the body and reactivated every year in the heat of the summer.

What? I...

I love this. This is amazing. I wish this still happened. I feel like it probably does. Maybe we just don't hear about it. Let's make it happen. Let's make it. Flash mobs are actually this. Yeah, pretty much. They've all been bitten. They have by the spider. The spider. And it happens in the heat of... I like that it reactivates in the heat of the summer. Yeah. Like summer, we're going to get crazy with it. Like let's party. Yeah. Makes sense. And it's called tarantism. And it's most often girls and young women are afflicted. Probably because they're like hysteria. Am I right? Yeah.

I'm so random. And that's when it got labeled hysteria, when they were like, oh, girls and young women get it? Yeah. Hysteria. Like the dancing plagues, there was no identifiable cause of the tarantism because like a tarantula bite doesn't cause this. So like there's no reason for this.

But they just believed it to be like a mass like psychogenic illness, which is even scarier. Yeah, a little bit. It's probably just a reaction to the times. That's what I'm saying. Everybody's probably bored. In the end, that kind of is what it feels like it is. We feel depressed. Now it's time to wild out. Yeah. It's like a better version of the witch trials. Yeah. Like a way better version. A much better version. The best.

way better. Yeah. So the early instances of the dancing plagues were pretty limited in size and scope. And they were, again, like limited to specific locations. But then came 1374, y'all.

An outbreak of dancing mania started in a German city of Aachen, I believe it is. And it eventually spread to other cities outside of Germany. So it's happening. Dancing everywhere. Were they all happening at the same time? Some of them were, and then some of them would start at the end of the next one, and it was just like a continuous thing. Yeah, like a wave in a stadium. Yeah.

The outbreak of 1374, sometimes referred to as St. John's Dance, began like the others. So it was like a small group forming a circle in the town square, starting to dance with each other. But the thing that keeps happening with these is they start to dance and it's like fine. And then they get more frenzied and it just like loses all control.

And that's what, they lose control of their senses. They don't care who's near them. They are like whirling around, like looking like they're in like a state of just like ecstasy. Like it's like a trance. Like a rave. Yeah. Like a straight up rave. I was at a show like last year. It feels similar. Yeah.

You're like, I had this. That was it. Some would dance for hours. Some would dance for days at a time, not stopping. Not stopping to eat, drink, sleep, piss, anything. Damn. So there's the answer. Yeah, there we go. And when they did finally stop, the dancers all spoke of some undeniable compulsion to dance. And then they would complain of extreme oppression and groaned as if in the agonies of death. What? What?

And then they would groan until they were swathed in clothes wrapped around tightly around their waist. Well, I feel like they probably were aching from dancing. Yeah. You ever take a Zumba class? It's a lot. It is. You know? You need one of those little rollerball things. Yeah. Just get it all out. Yeah. Or that little machine we have that can like get a tight muscle out. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

So a short time later, the dancers' pain would subside because they would get the rollerball or do whatever they needed to do when they finished Zumba. And they remained pain-free until the next compulsion came over them, and then it would keep happening. Like, they would go through periods of time where they were fine, and then they'd just start dancing a fool again.

Oh, no. Did they say they enjoyed the dancing when they were doing it? I think they were in like a trance. I don't think they could even remember. They didn't know. They just felt the pain afterwards, which sucks. But within a few weeks, that plague, the St. John's Dance Plague, had spread to Liege, Utrecht, and Tongres.

Those places. Those places. And then further out to towns in Belgium and the Netherlands. Wow. And according to one account, they danced together ceaselessly for hours or days and in wild delirium. The dancers collapsed and fell to the ground exhausted, groaning and sighing as if in the agonies of death.

And many later claimed that they had seen, this is literally my favorite thing I've ever heard, by the way. I'm so excited. Many of them claimed that they had seen the walls of heaven split open and that Jesus and the Virgin Mary had appeared before them. Were they dancing? Were Jesus and Mary dancing? That would be fun. I cannot say. I cannot say.

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But the walls of heaven split open during this dancing session. So you just have to dance your way into heaven. You do. I feel like that's actually probably true. Yeah. Yeah. Damn. It seems like a reaction to whatever they're...

whatever they're religious and so yeah they're like okay we have to chill but if we just go freak out hell yeah we can we can claim yeah we're on we're seeing heaven they're like guys it's a religious path yeah like jesus and mary are over here like they came in like let's go they're joining this the ring of sin whatever it was the priest joined in at that point they're like is this how we do it

That's how fun math starts. Jesus and Mary are here, you say? Yeah. So for the next hundred years, people in Germany and surrounding countries would periodically fall into these trances and manias. A hundred years? Yeah. In 1491, this is literally my favorite thing ever, by the way. In 1491, several residents of a nunnery, here we go, in the Habsburg Netherlands were overcome with the compulsion to dance. Wow.

But this time, it wasn't just dancing. So there were some that just like were getting their groove on. And then they would also be accompanied by instances of none. Hold on to your habits. Oh, no. They would climb trees and behave like cats. What? And they would all meow together. Rad. I love this. I hate that this wasn't on film. Climbing up the trees. Just climbing stuff.

In a full habit. Like, that's all I'm thinking of is, like, full nun gear. Just, like, lifting up tree knees and climbing. What the fuck?

I love it. Also in this delirium, it gets racy because they would sexually proposition the priest. Good. Iconic. And then it got better because the priests were like, no, no. And they would call exorcists to be like, clearly this demon's afoot. And when the exorcists would come, the nuns would sexually proposition the exorcist. Stop.

I'm obsessed with it. I don't know why I love it so much. Let them live. Let them live. Yeah. And like the people in 11th century Germany, the nun's affliction was believed to be a curse, obviously, brought by St. Vitus. And it was apparently supposed to be in response to the supposed moral laxity and split from the church of the period.

So they were like, now we've got our answer. Here it comes. So that's what that, and I guess other supernatural suspects in the case that were brought up were St. John the Baptist, demons as a whole. Of course. Any demon will do. The hierarchy of demons. And Satan himself. Oh shit. Yeah. The

Which apparently some of the nuns, while they were sexually propositioning the priests and the exorcists and not getting any... They were getting pushback. They were like, well, that's fine because I have also fucked Satan. Wow. The nuns would say that? Yeah, they were literally... Probably not like that. Not exactly like that. They probably had a nun way of saying it. Maybe. They've had relations with...

The devil. Wow. Basically. Yeah, so they were claiming it. Like, let's go, girls. When it was over, were they allowed to stay in the nunnery or were they exiled? That's a great question. I don't think they were exiled. Okay. But perhaps they were. I feel like when you said you fucked the devil, I feel like that's your time to step out. Skirt out, yeah. I don't think they're going to find a new path in life. Yeah. I don't think you get like a, this is one strike. Yeah. That kind of thing. Now, in the 15th century in Germany,

This is another nunnery because this is awesome. One nun started biting the others. Was she dancing first or she just started playing? No dancing involved. Was she one of the cat nuns? She was not one of the cat nuns. This is a different nunnery. So she starts biting the other nuns.

And then they were all like, wow, that sucks. Like, don't do that. And then after a while, direct quote on the record, that sucks. Stop doing that. And then one of them was like, well, I guess I'll just bite you back, which like, I get it. Yeah. Like if she's still biting you. Don't bite me. Bite her back. And one of them bit her back and then they all started biting each other and then they

were just rapidly biting you like all of them just started biting each other biting the priests oh and they brought the piece this is not a sanitary time it's never a good time to bite anybody but that's bad are they still dancing while they're biting that's the question dancing may not have been a part of this one it might have just been a biting interesting scenario but it would be really funny to think of them dancing and biting get their groove on just great and every once in a while the beat drops and they bite someone yeah that's

Yeah, so then word spread about this affliction because people were like, whoa, have you heard of this? These nuns go crazy. And the affliction started spreading. The biting one. Yeah, now the biting one's going. We got a lot going on. Apparently nunneries in Saxenburg and Brendenburg, you know, Holland, now even Rome. Whoa. All biting each other and biting the priests. And meowing. And meowing. There was meowing as well.

Awesome. And it only stopped, and this is literally documented, it says it only stopped because they got exhausted.

Exhausted of biting each other? I just got tired. At some point you're going to get tired. Yeah, you're tired now. I wonder how long. I know. How long can you bite someone? I don't know. Write in. So, more for podcast at gmail.com. Yeah, let us know. Do an experiment. Wouldn't it be great if after this airs, these plagues begin spreading all over again? Exactly like cops imagine. Yeah, yeah. We're responsible.

Now, by far the most notorious of the dancing plagues occurred in Strasbourg, France in July 1518. This is the one that a lot of people know about. Okay. The event began pretty innocuously. It was just a single older woman dancing.

Just going into the streets, into the city center. Her name was Frau Trofea. Love it. I think is what I say it. That's how I say it. Yeah. She just walked out and she was like, let's do this. And she just started dancing. She said, let's dance. Let's go. Yeah. She used to David Bowie before David Bowie. Hell yeah. That's where David Bowie came from. He came from a dancing plate. A nunnery of dancing. Yeah. A dancing plate in a nunnery. Canon. That is where David Bowie came from. He came from a dancing plate. It was Frau.

So by mid-August, and she wouldn't stop, of course, because that's how these work. She had a plague. She had a plague. By mid-August, hundreds of people had joined her in the town square. Again, a flash mob. All of them uncontrollable. And like the previous ones, the dancers in Strasburg never stopped to eat.

Oh my god. What a way to go out, though. I mean... It seemed like, I mean, there were a lot of ways you could die back then, but it seems like dancing would have been one of the best ways to die.

One of the better ones. I would choose that. Yeah. It's like real plague or dancing plague. Yeah. I'm picking dancing plague. Yeah. And they just kept going. So people would be dropping dead and they were still dancing. It's not like they stopped and were like, pause, like, let's get this one out. Nope. They just danced. People dropping. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

And unlike many of the earlier dancing plagues, which were recounted a lot, like they kind of change over time, like folklore, this one, this particular one in 1518, was very well documented. Like it's a real event that is very documented. It's appeared in everything from historical text, news accounts, church and medical documents. It's like in a lot of things. And according to many of these documents, the woman who started the plague was brought to a church devoted to...

Can we guess? St. Vincent. St. Vitus. Oh, Vitus. My bad. Maybe St. Vincent too. Who knows? A few days after she started dancing, she was brought to a church devoted to him and she was cured apparently.

Well, this is while the other people are still dancing. They're still going. They started this. We're going to take care of you, but we're going to let the others go. They're trying to chop the head off the snake and see if it all falls. Maybe if she stops. Yeah. Maybe if Frau stops. No, they all just kept going. Because in the days after that, others started joining more even. As soon as her absence was felt, they were like, we need to beef this up. Let's dance for her. Let's get more people in here.

So in order to curtail the mania, the city forbade musicians to perform publicly. Oh, boo. Which like. That sucks. Lame. Yeah. Kind of a killjoy. And eventually started taking the dancers one by one to the St. Vitus Church to get treatment.

And no matter how quickly they removed the dancers off the streets to St. Vitus' church there, they were just replaced by new dancers. People would just show up. It's like one leaves, five more come. Yeah, they had alternates. See, they had to cancel the musicians because they're like, this is easy for us. We can just go and we already have an audience. Yeah, they're like, oh yeah, let's go. I know, they were like, we can really get big here. This is our spot. They're like running around the dancers being like, listen to my demo.

Get a record deal out here. Now, in the decades and centuries that followed this, dancing plagues continued across Europe with significant events occurring in the 16th and 17th centuries in Switzerland and Italy. And there hasn't been like a really documented case of dancing mania in a lot of centuries.

But Tarentism, which is like thought to be kind of similar, has been documented in Italy as recently as the 1950s. Oh, shit. So remind me, Tarentism, it isn't dancing, but it's just sort of like... It is kind of dancing. It is. Yeah. It is kind of dancing, but it's like a little different because they claim it's from a spider.

Okay. Like you get bit by a tarantula, which I didn't even know they had tarantulas in Italy. That was news to me. I don't think I knew that either. I don't know where I thought tarantulas were. Australia. I think everything's in Australia. I can attest to Joshua Tree. Oh my God, they're there too? There was actually the last Jack's Mannequin record we almost named Tarantula Mating Season because we- No! That'd be great. Because we actually, we rented a house in Joshua Tree during Tarantula Mating Season and they were

everywhere. And I don't, I mean, I don't care for spiders, but big ones I care for less. And yeah, if you ever want to go get some Tarrantism, I recommend Joshua Tree around October, November. So they were, were they like in the house? There's, I wish I could find this video because there's a, there's a video of me and two of my bandmates, um,

running around the house screaming in like a high pitch. Yeah. Like trying to chase a tarantula out of the house. How big? I mean, bigger than my hand. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're huge. No. I'd just start crying and never stop. That's the thing. I don't cry easily. No, you don't. I would start sobbing uncontrollably if I saw a tarantula. Yeah, 100%. I cry easily. And in my house, I'd never sleep in there again. It's my understanding they're not that like...

I don't know that the big ones are that bad. No, I don't think they really do much. Yeah, but they don't look like anything you want to spend time with. It's unfortunate for them. I know. I feel like up close, aren't they really cute? Like their faces? Their faces are kind of cute. Like with like a magnifying glass. I'm not going up close. I never found them cute.

You're like, me, no. He said, actually, no. It's not my thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's in Australia, the huntsman spiders. My TikTok has figured out that I hate them, but that I will watch a whole video about one. So it just keeps giving me...

Huntsman spider videos. And apparently you can hear huntsmans walking down the hall. No. They're so big. And I was like, that's all I need to know. I can't ever go to Australia. Not for me. Ever. I die. And people have like house huntsmans where they're just like, oh, that's just like Leroy. No. He just lives here. He takes care of the bugs. I'm like, who takes care of him though? Like who? He's lawless. He's lawless. Ricky Lawless.

You get like, you're like, he takes care of like the mosquitoes. I'm like, what? I'd rather get bit by a mosquito than live with Levi. But like, you can't look like that. No. Oh, I can't. I cannot. So yeah, if you ever want that, go to Joshua Tree, apparently during their mating season. Yeah. Now people obviously blamed all these manias on either the spider or the devil.

and other supernatural shit for all the dancing plagues. But lots of religious intervention was obviously brought in to treat them. Yeah. You know, exorcisms and the like. And in cases where the dancers... This is interesting. So...

Because this is kind of very, like, regional. So it's like they would do these things where it's like the treatments for it were very regional to what they were thinking or believing in that place. But when the dancers were foreign, like, not of that area, the regional cultural differences would uphold the belief in demonic possession. So, like...

it would always go back to demonic possession. But according to Robert Bartholomew, quote, the behavior of these dancers was described as strange because while exhibiting actions that were part of the Christian tradition, other elements were foreign. And he points to one account that says, in their songs they uttered the names of devils never before heard of, this strange sect. So how would you know what they were? So it's like,

What? So how do you know they're devils, too? Maybe they're gods. Maybe they're angels. Yeah. Maybe they're friends. Well, if you're dancing, the devil has to be a part of it. Several devils have to be a part of it. Now, demonic possession was really the main suspect in the beginning. But in later plagues, the cause of the mania would often be attributed because obviously we hear it in like the nunnery.

It would be attributed to immorality and sin, particularly those in which the dances were overtly sexual or predominantly performed by women. One description read, "...they indulged in disgraceful immodesty, for many women during this shameful dance and mock bridal singing bared their bosoms while others of their own accord offered their virtue."

Oh, honey. So now these ladies are out there just being like, coming at us. Screwing in the streets. Show an ankle. Damn. Show an ankle. Yeah. What is offered their virtue, though? That's what I want there. Literally show an ankle. Yeah, they showed their shoulders. It's like, do you want to hold my hand and dance? And they're like, holy shit. You got to get inside, girl. You got to a nunnery where you can start meowing and propositioning priests. Yeah.

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Now, in later years, such as, you know, the dancing plague in Strasbourg, like the really famous one, the events were frequently kind of attributed to madness and hysteria as a whole, especially when they were begun, again, by girls or women. Historian John Waller says that there is considerable evidence that suggests the dancing plagues and the possession epidemics of Europe's nunneries were in fact classic instances of a very different phenomenon, mass psychogenic illness.

Which is way scarier to me. Yeah, I don't love that. Like, if you're telling me the devil came and made me dance, I'm like, okay. That's fun. Like, that happens. But, like, mass psychogenic illness? Boo. What is that? So what's the definition of psychogenic illness, then? So that's really, like, where the term mass hysteria comes from, where they can't pinpoint it. It's, like, in the Salem Witch Trials, they tried to blame it on, like, ergot poisoning, like, fungus on the wheat, essentially. Yeah.

And that causes, you know, some kind of food poisoning that leads to this like wild illness that everybody just. Like psychosis. You're hallucinating or something. Yeah. I think it's like groupthink. Like I think it's really just you've seen instances of it where like you can get people to do insane things if you just make it a group effort. And again, there wasn't a lot to do back then. There certainly wasn't. So why not dance? Yeah. There really wasn't.

And in the majority of cases of dancing plagues, the years we were touching upon this before, the years immediately preceding the events were usually pretty harsh. There was famine, natural disasters, social and political upheaval.

In the case of Strasburg, there was a little thing called the Black Plague that was right before it. Right. Yeah. So it can be viewed as kind of like an extreme reaction of like stress relief, like a reaction to trauma. It's a trauma reaction. Yeah. So we're all going to start dancing soon. Like, you know, you can play the piano or you can start dancing uncontrollably for years at a time. Yeah. Whatever works for you. Whatever you feel. Report back. Let us know. But yeah, that's my little...

My dance into mass hysteria. And this is what the movie Footloose was based on. Exactly. That's what I was thinking the entire time. That's the mic drop at the end. In that, friends. But yeah, so if you start dancing in the streets, people might start joining you and then you could all die together. Yeah. Don't take it to a bridge. There's that. Yeah. Don't do that. Avoid bridges. Yeah, 12th century bridges are not the place to go. No. Yeah. No. Okay, so my question is,

Did men ever participate in the dancing plagues? They did. Yeah, they did. That's what makes it so funny. They're like, well, women started it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we just got blamed. Shut up. Yeah. And I don't even think it was always women who started it. I think it was just like there was a lot of women. Yeah, especially in that era. They were like, we'll blame the ladies. It's either the devil, ladies, or a combination of both. Yeah.

And then in the nunneries, obviously, it was just all ladies. And the devil. And the devil. Yeah. Of course. They were having relations with the devil. Was there any documentation of whether or not they were having fun? Oh, they were having fun. I feel like we need to document it. It feels pretty awesome, to be honest. They were slithering. Like, especially in the nunnery scenario, I'm like, I think they just got bored.

And then they were like, let's see what we can get out of these priests. Let's climb a tree. Let's break some vows. I'm sure there were some hot priests back then. So they were probably like, let's see if we can break some vows. Yeah. Stroke the ego a little bit. When that didn't work, they were like, bring on the exorcist. Let's see. Have a little fun. Yeah. And then they just gave it up. Well, it's an easy out, too. It's like, we can just claim that we were possessed, but we're having a great time. And there will be some recourse. Exactly. We'll get back to normal eventually. But you know what? We'll have our men.

Yeah, exactly. Or you could just leave the nunnery by saying you fucked the devil. Yeah. It's really a way out, actually. The easiest way to leave the nunnery, I would say. That's how I get out of most social situations. Exactly. If I don't want to be there. Sorry, I can't make it tonight. Book signing's not going to work tonight. I slept with the devil. Sorry, I fucked the devil. I got to go. Bye, bad. Yeah. I love it. All right. Well, this is a weird shift now, but we're going to play some Would You Rather.

Please say it's dancing plague related. It's not even dancing plague related. Would you rather fuck the devil or climb the tree and meow? I should have put some of those in there. Yeah. But you can both answer because I didn't read these to you yet. Okay, I'll answer.

Would you guys rather be haunted by a ghost that only you can see or hear whispers that no one else can hear? I'm going with the ghost. There's something about whispering that nobody can hear that feels really ominous. At least they can be like, oh, there's my friend the ghost. Yeah. Hopefully. Is it a friendly ghost? Do we know? We don't know. It's up in the air. Okay. It's up to you. It's up to you. It's your ghost. I'd rather... In general...

I'd rather be able to see it. If it's just whispering, that's another level for me. That'll drive you mad, I feel like. That's how I feel. I would definitely rather ghosts. Because whispering would drive... I am very... You have misophonia. I get very annoyed with certain sounds over and over again. So that would piss me off. It's hard to even eat lunch in here. I would just be like, shut up.

Whispering's on your list? Ooh, constant whispering I think would make me crazy. Yeah. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I think it would make a lot of people crazy. Yeah. Misophonia or not. But seeing a ghost every now and then would just be like, oh, hey. Yeah. You'd never feel alone. Yeah, there you go. Perfect. You could tell them the big events in your life. Just call them my imaginary friend. Yeah. Just be like, oh, hey, you're here. Let me tell you something cool that happened today. I think I agree with you guys. I'd take the ghost. Yeah.

All right, number two, would you rather live in a house that rearranges itself every night or in one where the doors occasionally lead to other dimensions? Oh, two. Other dimensions? Yeah. Why? Rearranging my house every night would send me into orbit. Nope. I'm a, like, comfort creature. You are. That would annoy the – and I'm a control freak. Mm-hmm. Waking up to having my house rearranged every morning would –

With no sign off. But another dimension? Let's go. Yeah, I'm there with you. I'm very type A and things are where they need to be. And they're staying. Yeah, they're not moving. Don't touch them. And also, let's see what's in the other dimensions. I'm curious. I'm going house rearranged because I can put it back. Wow.

I don't want to go to... I don't know what these other dimensions have in them. What if there's nuns meowing and trying to fuck priests? What if I fall in and I can't get back into my house to rearrange my furniture? You can't rearrange it every day because it's going to get rearranged that night. Yeah, that's true. That's a lot of work. I know, but dimensions are scary. It's bad to your floors. It is bad to your floors. That's...

That's real. If it's a really good interior designer who's rearranging the house, maybe it's a different story. This is my scenario. It is. You're like, oh, that's a really nice new configuration of the living room furniture. That helped the feng shui. Excited to see what you do to it.

No, I bet still even that wouldn't work for me. I'm too much of a control freak. I'm sticking with it. I believe in you. All right. Number three, would you rather live in a world where every book you open transports you into its story or where every movie you watch traps you inside its universe until the movie ends?

It's kind of like the same thing. Yeah. I mean, I think the longer trip in the book is probably less of a vibe. Yeah. It depends on the book, I suppose. I can handle two hours in another world pretty easily. You'll go movie. I've worked my way up with psychedelics and this is actually something that I know. You're like, I don't feel like, you know what? Yeah. I know I can handle that, but I'm a slow reader. Yeah.

She must start in this world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the, I've always want, like every time I read a book, I'm always like, like, take me with you. That's how I feel. Like, I just want to jump into the book. But now I'm thinking about it and I'm like, that's true. That would be a long, a long time. Well, and with some of the books that y'all are reading for this podcast, I would imagine those are not worlds that you want to spend a lot of time in. No. I'd like to pick and choose which books. Definitely choosing the books. Yeah. If I'm jumping into every book I read, then that's a problem.

Same thing with movies because we watch fucked up movies a lot. I don't want to go in some of them. That's true. It's a hard choice. I think it's the I'm going to go with yours. The time crunch is what I if I know I have a finite time. All right. That'll make me feel better. I like it.

Yeah, I get that. I was thinking story because when you're reading, you're kind of like making like your own visuals. Yeah. So it'd be kind of cool to see that. I haven't done psychedelics, so that would be my way of doing it. That's the surprise for this episode. I brought some here. Surprise! I'm totally kidding. Don't get the wrong idea. These are occasional journeys. Yeah.

Don't worry, everybody. If you're like, it's fine, don't worry. Yeah, that's a hard one. I think the only, like, because again, I've always wanted to jump into a book. Yeah. I love books. Yeah. But again, it's the time. I get that. Because I'm also that way with like,

Everybody who listens knows I'm not good in social situations. You are. Going out, but at a social situation out, I always like to know there's an end. You need an end. Yeah. I need an end to it. So yeah, I think the movie. Yeah, I get that. Because then you can pick hour and a half, two hours. Yeah, I'm not going to jump into like... Maybe not a Harry Potter movie. Yeah, I'm not jumping into like... You're only watching short films from here on out. Exactly. Or I probably would jump into a Harry Potter movie, actually.

That sounds awesome. I'd jump in all of them. Let's go. Yeah, I love that. That cemented it for me. All right. Last one. Would you rather live in a world where night never falls, so it's basically just like eternal daytime, or an eternal night where you would never witness the sun again?

Obviously daytime. Nighttime. I had a feeling you would go that way. Yeah. Nighttime for sure. Yeah. I need the sun. Like I'm, I need the sun. It's the California in you. Well, yeah. Well, I was born out here. I actually was born in Massachusetts and moved across the country, but getting to California now it's like if I, when I tour in the winter time, um,

It's not good for me. If it's dark for a long time, I lose my mind. And we brought you at the perfect time. It was sunny this morning. A little bit. When it glistens in the snow, so it's pretty. I had an amazing walk this morning. I was like, I didn't feel cold. I went and got coffee. I was like, okay, this was, because you told me, you prepared me. You're like, there's no sun out here. And I was like, I can handle that for two days. But two days is like my limit.

it yeah and the sun was like i'll come out for you yeah just welcome to boston because we have not had sun for weeks yeah at this point yeah it's been dark yeah the sun doesn't like me very much sounds like you don't like it either and i don't like it we have like a mutual disrespect for each other yeah i'm way too pale for the sun yeah i don't do well in it alina carries around a parasol in the summer yeah really like a goth girl parasol i do not want to get burned i

I don't want wrinkles. Yes, and you're good. We have a mutual disrespect, which became a respect. Do you have a parasol collection? I only have one. You should have a collection. I know, I should. I like that idea. I also like a big, wide-brimmed hat. Yeah. Yeah. This sounds like good Morbid Merch. Yeah.

I know. The parasol feels on brand to me. Mikey, write that down. Mikey's all about it. He's like, already done it. I got it. You also feel like you're in like another era when you carry around a parasol. Totally. Which is fun. I have a lot of admiration for a parasol. Like when I see people out doing the parasol thing, I'm like, I couldn't do it.

even when it rains I don't carry an umbrella I'm just like whatever just get me wet I'm fine but the commitment to you know good skin but I love the sun too much I'm like I will look like a beat up leather shoe within the next 10 years and I'm fine with it when I see those guys on the beach and I'm just like yeah that's my future I'm like maybe you don't think this is good looking but I'm like

I want to just look like a shoe. I'm going to live as a shoe. I'm fine with it. Yeah. Yeah, I don't do well in the sun either. Like, I don't like hot. As soon as here... I don't like hot. I don't like hot. Like, here, it's like as soon as it gets in the 60s, I'm like, this is my perfect weather. Like, I can live in the 60s, fall, all day. Yeah. Like, I like that kind of sun. I feel like in the fall, it's like a...

Like a muted sun. Yeah. It has a different vibe to it. I don't know how to explain it. No, I get that. And then as soon as it gets in the summer, it's like this harsh sun that like I hate the look of it. I just don't like, I don't know what it is. Everything's too bright for you. Too bright. I'm the opposite. I'll go to the desert in the middle of the summer when it's like 113 degrees and I'll just be in heaven.

That's really different. With like a little folding mirror. No, no, I never did that. I toured with a band once. The singer actually had one of the... No way. My God. We'll never say who. They're great. And he's great too. But I remember walking outside and being like, that dude's doing like...

the grandma on the porch thing with the reflector that you see in movies and don't think is real. This is a level of commitment to tanning that I've never even imagined. But I get cold so easily. Oh, I get cold very easily. Yeah, and it's my least favorite feeling is being cold. Really? And my least favorite feeling is being hot. Yeah. I'm like, hot I can handle, but not when I'm sleeping.

Oh, I have to be freezing when I'm sleeping. Me and my husband get in fights all the time. I've been turning off the heat lately. He's like, stop doing that. It's like 60 degrees in this room. I'm like, I am the fan going above us. And John's like, why? It's February. Like what? I'm like, yeah, it's the science fact that you sleep better when you're cold. It's true. I do. It's true. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't. My thought process about it is that you can only take off so many layers. Yeah, you can add so many more. Like I can't peel my skin off. I could, but I'm not going to. Don't. You can put on. I mean, I guess I could. I'm an autopsy technician. I know how to flay back skin. Could you bring yourself to do it? Absolutely not. No. I thought you were going to say absolutely. I was like, whoa. Not to myself.

To a dead person, I can. Well, yeah, you have. Yeah. But I'm like, yeah. We should end there. Just take a turn. I like it. Like, wait. But you can't take off all the layers to get cool, but you can put on all the layers. I mean, it's a sound logic. It's just one I don't follow at all. It's okay. We diverge here. That's fine. It's like we got the office. We have parks. We have all the things. Yeah. This is where we diverge. It's okay.

We'll just be friends in different continents. I'll just stand in the middle of you. I like both. I came to you in winter. You did. That's true. That's how we know we're friends. Exactly. That's the last one. I pick eternal night because I'm a night person, but I still like the sun. So I'd be like a little bummed, I think. Yeah. But you know, yeah. I just also love the night.

Well, yeah, that's what I feel. Did you watch Night Country? Did you? I did. I have not. I think I could vibe. That was, yeah, it was great. It was. It was really good. But even me, I was like, this is horrible. It's dark. It's dark every episode. Is it like Alaska or something? It's when like it's that part of the country that it like goes into night for three months. Oh, I think I would thrive. I think I would do okay. Yeah. Not me.

No. I would be... It'd be over in one season. Yeah. I would have lost my mind. There's also like a reverse of that that happens. Oh, yeah. It's like three months of light. That would kill me. I've been to Alaska...

When it was in that period. That must be bonkers. I mean, it was hard to sleep. Yeah. For sure. But it was pretty cool to go outside when it was like two in the morning and it's like, oh. And it's the middle of the day. Just daytime. Yeah. I mean, it would be like dusky, you know, but it was pretty cool. I feel like that would like fuck up your circadian rhythm. It totally does. Definitely. The other way would too, obviously. Yeah.

So that wouldn't be great. Yeah. You got to be strong to live out there. Damn. Yeah. Do you live out there, anyone? Write us in. Lots of emails coming in. I know. Suddenly we're really calling for emails. I know.

Well, that was fun. That was fun. I loved that. Thanks for inviting me. I had a blast. Thanks for coming. Thank you for coming on. We learned a lot. Oh, and check out the Dear Jack Foundation if you want to say anything about that before we leave. Yeah, I mean, so Dear Jack is a nonprofit I started years ago on the heels of my survivorship with leukemia. And so we advocate for

adolescent and young adults. So people 15 to 39, which is like for years has been a really forgotten demographic of cancer patient and survivor. And so, yeah, we build programs for this group specifically. We do retreats for couples that are entering survivorship. And we also do a wish granting program for young adult cancer patients.

So yeah, please just go to dearjackfoundation.org if you want to learn more about what we're doing or if you happen to have a friend or be going through the cancer journey yourself. We have a lot of support services and ways to kind of link up with you and try and make the journey easier. Hell yeah. Nice. I love it. So go check it out. Yeah. Perfect. And you guys, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it.

Weird. But not so weird that if you haven't already listened to something corporate, Jack's Mannequin and Andrew McMahon in the Wilderness, you don't check it out.

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