Shownotes Transcript
Hey weirdos, it's Ash. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about the spooky perks of Wondery+. It's like having a skeleton key that unlocks ad-free listening and early access to new episodes. So don't wait, try Wondery Plus today. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast.
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We know when it comes to finding balance, the more choices, the better. Hey, weirdos. I'm Alayna. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid. Hi. We were just talking about Dorinda Medley from, uh,
New York Housewives. Always and forever. Because I'm watching the old episodes again. They're so fun. They're constant in my house. If we don't know what to watch, we just put that on and disassociate. Old New York Housewives. Jewels forever. Jewels should have been. Jewels forever. Jewels should have gotten wheny more. I was going to say way more, and then I said many, so wheny more seasons. She should have. I loved her. I liked her personality. She was great. Yeah. Yeah.
Carol? I didn't like her husband, but I liked her. No, and that's why she should have stayed on because they ended up divorcing and I'm pretty sure she like might have... He got his. Yeah. Which like nobody should...
Nobody should hit anyone. No. It's probably not. No, don't hit people. Yeah, don't do that. Did she hit him? I think there was some allegations. I'm not saying that I know what happened, but it was a little bit of allegations. That's not okay. Keep your hands to yourself. Well, anyway. He was a turd. Yeah.
How do you sagoo away from that? How do you get out of that? Where do we go from here? Anywhere. Maybe I've had like not enough and too much coffee all at the same time today. I haven't had enough because for some reason last night I couldn't fall asleep, which I
I rarely have trouble falling asleep. I'm usually a hit-the-pillow kind of gal. I know. It just, I don't know. There's nothing really going on that's, like, keeping me up at night, you know? Like, maybe it's because, like, we got some sickies in my house, and I think I'm just...
On high alert. Oh my God, your kids are sick again. Oh my God. They're actually on the mend, everybody. John's on the mend as well. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Isn't that such a fun thing to say? It is. I like that. It's good. Because it's just, it's very aggressive. It's so aggressive. Yeah, I like that. I like being aggressive sometimes. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. But yeah, everything's, you know, things are...
Things are here, you know? Spring is springing in New England. It is. I'm about to plant a little bit. I actually, I'm, you know, my witchy class, we planted, we got to pick what flower we wanted to do and we did like a little Ostara celebration. Oh, cute. And I planted a little moonflower and it's starting to bloom. Oh, my gosh.
Yeah. I love that. So what we did was we got like a little pot and we painted it. And then you put a little affirmation or like wish in the jar, in the pot, and you put the soil over it and then you planted it. So like your... Oh, I like that. It's like as the flower grows, like your wish is growing. Oh, I really dig that. Yeah, my wish is growing, everyone. I dig that a lot. Do you know what flower Sabrina picked? I don't. I...
She might have picked a moonflower. I feel like she would have. I feel like that's very Sabrina. Yeah, me and my girly Sabrina from Two Girls, One Ghost are taking the class together. Go listen to Two Girls, One Ghost too. They're awesome. They're really great. What are you doing if you're not listening to Two Girls, One Ghost? You gotta go listen to them. Don't be an idiot. They're a great podcast and great ladies. Put Two Girls, One Ghost in your pipe and smoke it. There you go. I like that. Aggressively supporting our friends. Aggressively. Yeah.
I think I'm tired. You're like, I don't know if I've mentioned this, but I don't know. Did I say that already? No, you just said you didn't have enough caffeine, but too much all at once. That's what I said. So that was different. Yeah. We, yeah, I don't think we have a whole lot more business to attend to. I can't really think of anything. And I'm trying to think of any fun life updates that some people will like to hear. What's going on in life? I know there's some people that are like, just get to the fucking case.
Yeah, I don't really have much life going on right now. It's really only if I have exciting things, I like to say it. It's like we said spring was coming, but it's also sort of that weird transitional period. Yeah. So it's like spring is coming, but also it's fucking cold, so you can't do much yet. Yeah, but it's not super cold. It's like that we're getting into that place where we're in the 50s now, which is New England summer.
That's true. So everybody's wearing shorts and t-shirts. Not me. That's too cold for me. You go outside and it's shorts and t-shirts everywhere. Oh, Drew is fully in his shorts mode. Which is fun. So we're almost there. Yeah. We are going to cover... This is going to be a two-parter because it's a little intense. It's a lot. There's a lot. This is somebody who kind of got like swept under...
The wave of serial killers that were in the Los Angeles, you know, that area of San Francisco, that kind of area in California in the 60s and 70s. Kind of like what you were saying when we talked about Herbert Mullen. Exactly. I'm kind of hitting that wave of these killers, and a lot of them got swept under each other because there were other bigger ones, I guess. Like, bigger, you know, victim counts are, like, more...
Some reason some got more coverage than others, which is a little wild to me because they're all equally gnarly. It's just what the media wants to put out at the time. It's very strange. You just don't know what people latch on to in the media. But we are going to cover David Carpenter, the trailside killer. Oh. We have covered other quote-unquote trailside killers. This is not the same.
So don't worry. But even I looked at it and I was like, we've covered somebody who would like do this on like trails. I think we briefly talked about him on Crime Countdown. Exactly. Which sometimes throws me off. Yeah. But David Carpenter is really rough. Trigger warning. He is like a sexual sadist. He's he sucks. He sucks a lot.
And we're going to be talking about like some rough stuff. So just so you know, but again, we're going to break it into two parts. A little more palatable. Yeah. So you can kind of just like, you know, absorb all the information in small doses. So again, we're talking about the 60s and 70s, you know, from Los Angeles to San Francisco.
At this point, Californians were literally terrorized. Yeah. Like I was saying, by multiple killers. You know, we're talking about the Zodiac Killer, the Hillside Stranglers, Herbert Mullen, Ed Kemper. All of them were in different parts, but like near each other around the same time. Mm-hmm.
And the decade between the 60s and 70s definitely ended with a lot of these killers either just disappearing, Zodiac, or being apprehended. But the terror and the near constant threat of violence and murder was kind of just simply moving north at this point. So...
David Carpenter terrorized Point Reyes in Santa Cruz County for a decade, which is where Santa Cruz is where Herbert Mullen was also hanging out a lot. Right. He assaulted, he kidnapped, and he killed at least eight people, and he was suspected of more. Wow. Yeah.
Now, who is David Carpenter? Tell me. Because unfortunately, we got to know who this dumb fuck is. So David Joseph Carpenter was born May 6, 1930 in San Francisco. He was born to Elwood and Francis Carpenter. Elwood? Elwood, yeah. Close. Both of them suck. So I'm just going to say that right up front. Don't get attached to either of them. I won't. They were a postal worker and a homemaker.
By his own accounts, his early life was quote-unquote hellish, due in large part, according to him, by what he described as his mother's quote, unloving, inflexible, and exceedingly domineering stance. Damn. According to Carpenter himself...
His unhappy home life and constant fighting between his parents led his father to move out for a year while David was 14 years old, leaving David and his sister Anne alone with his mother. That's a rough time for your dad to move out. I mean, it's always a pretty rough time for your dad to move out. I feel that. But like, at 14. Yeah, I feel like that would be rough no matter what. So the biggest issue that was affecting his relationship with his parents was, and this is sad, again, feel bad for the child.
It was his pronounced stutter that he had, which he developed at a very early age.
One probation officer later wrote, quote, his parents and siblings were not fond of him at all, being somewhat ashamed of his speech impediment. What the fuck? Yeah, they're just pieces of shit. Yeah, don't help him with it at all or anything. On top of this, David also had really bad eyesight and was left-handed. Both of these things were viewed by his mother as being failings. The work of the devil. Yeah, just complete failings. I love that being left-handed is a fail. Yeah. That's like, what? Wow, that's like kind of cool.
Yeah, that's different, man. Yeah. But even seeing what she deemed to be big issues and failings, Frances refused to seek treatment for her son's developmental problems, choosing instead to address the problem in the home with very aggressive discipline.
Because that always works. No, it doesn't. That doesn't turn people into angry adults. It does. That's totally fine. When those attempts strangely failed, Francis made a series of appointments finally at the University of California Medical Center, which when I first read this, I said, okay, okay.
But then the day of the appointments would arrive and she would drive to the hospital, sometimes get as far as the door, and then just turn around and go home. That's a waste of time. And whenever she was asked about the missed appointments, she would just blame him. Oh, okay. But she was just like ashamed. Blame the child. And didn't want to do it. Neglectful. Yeah. Yeah.
So while Frances was, you know, she was verbally abusive, she was emotionally abusive towards David, she was also known to be very physically abusive. Jesus. Like, very physically abusive. According to Yvonne Carey, who grew up a few houses down from the Carpenters, she said it was common knowledge in the neighborhood that Frances Carpenter was abusing her children. At times, it would be so bad that they would have to be kept out of school for a day or two. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah.
She later recalled then when he would come back, meaning David, he would be covered with bruises from head to toe. He wore short pants so you could see the black and blue marks on his legs as well as painful welts on his arms and face. It's crazy that back then, like, that didn't cause anybody to... Like, was CPS even a thing back then? I don't think it... I think it was literally, like... I mean, this is the 50s. So I think it's fine to beat the shit out of your kids. It's just expected. Like, keep them in line. Oh, my God. To the point where they have...
to be your kids ever and then to the point where they have welts and bruises like oh my god also again you have to be a literal sociopathic monster to hit a child to harm a child like that you simply do and i will take no arguments to be like i just no i mean i will never understand that kind of behavior with a child i will never understand it nope
I just won't. And especially like in the 50s, it's like, oh yeah, that was just like the thing. Okay, cool. That was the thing. You still have to be a fucking monster to be able to do that to a child. Well, and it's like, I think people get confused because it's like in the 50s, like spankings were normal. Yeah. Like hitting your, you know, like using a belt. Even that is fucking awful. But this is like beating
Beating and forging him. This is literally like punching a child in the face. Like, what is wrong with you? That even that shouldn't have been normal for the 50s. No, it definitely shouldn't have been, but I don't think it was, I think it was one of those things. People just looked the other way. Yeah. And it was, so it wasn't just his mother. Carpenter said that Elwood was equally distant and abusive when it came to David, but his abuse was mostly verbal. Okay. I mean, still, that's awful. Decades later, when he was evaluated by psychiatrists, David would minimize the abuse he suffered from his father. Huh.
And he would focus instead on his mother as the instigator of all his problems. I mean, she was beating the shit out of them, so I get it. Sounds like she was fucking terrible. It sounds like the dad was fucking terrible, too. Now, if David's home life was hellish, his experience at school was not much better. Yeah.
He was very intelligent and very capable of doing well in school, but if you're dealing with that at home as a child, I'm sure that is difficult. His teachers struggled to work with him. They said he was largely disengaged, which of course he is. I'm sure he was. One teacher said, I tried and tried and I just couldn't get through to him. That's sad. David's stutter and his poor social skills made him a frequent target for bullying, and he endured years of physical and emotional torment from his peers.
People suck. Yeah. And again, you can feel bad for the child. No child deserves to go through that. No. And it also teaches you like not that this is like people go through shit like that and they come out and they're good people. Yeah, of course. And they don't do this. You know what I mean? Like I'm not saying this is the like you do that, then that's cause and effect. But you can see how it happens. But you can also sit there and go maybe I shouldn't treat people like shit. Like do think about it the next time that you want to like ruthlessly bully someone. Yeah.
Because this guy, like if they are slightly unstable, if there's something slightly off chemically, then you have just lit the match. And it's like, just don't treat people like shit.
It's just a weird thing to do anyway. Like, I just... Don't bully people. If you're a bully, go fuck yourself. Like, honestly. If you're, like... If you're a bully out in life, if you're a bully in your job, if you're a bully on the internet, go fuck yourself. Like, you're gonna get what you deserve. I agree. Like, this is just, like... I don't understand treating people like this. Well,
Unhappy people treat people that way. Yeah. And oftentimes it's easier to see that as you grow older. I think like kids just don't see that. No, you just, kids automatically think it's my fault. What did I do? What's wrong with me? But it's like, damn, just don't be shitheads to people. I'm awesome. Exactly. Like, let's go. Yeah.
So in one evaluation written by Dr. Ralph Allison, a psychiatrist, he wrote, at school he was always made fun of because of the stammer and inability to get answers out, even though he was brighter than most children in the school. And additionally, it looks like David's kind of like unusual and disturbing behavior sometimes made him a target because he would also do things, because again, he's being abused at home, so there's going to be some emotional issues here. Yeah.
He would regularly do things like pull the wings off of flies to try to shock kids. And if a kid is doing that to something smaller than him, that is a big red flag. But again, we're in the 50s.
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That's just boys being boys. That's just boys being boys. Now, on the rare occasion that David would make a friend in school or in the neighborhood, Francis, his mother, would inevitably interfere in the relationship, not allowing any children in the house or putting very strict time limits on her son's socialization with other kids. What the fuck? It's like, you don't want him at home. Well, that's what I never get with these kind of parents. It's like, so you're abusing your kid. You clearly don't like them. You don't like being a parent. You don't like the responsibility of being a parent. But then
you like won't allow that kid to go out of your response like like you're not responsible yeah but instead you that that to me shows that you are like you're a monster yeah that just likes hurting this child like it's not that you are not capable of being a baby it's like you are just you're getting enjoyment you are evil yeah and you just enjoy hurting something smaller than you and it's like and you should be fucking locked up so
David's friend, Robert Gorabeek, said Francis and Elwood had laid down specific rules. It was like you had to make an appointment before you could go over and see him. The fuck? Instead, Francis would make sure to fill David's afternoons. She signed him up for violin and ballet lessons, which...
at this time made him a bigger target for bullying because we're in the 50s again, and these are seen as two very unmasculine activities to do. Which you almost wonder if that was like another layer of her cruelty. Yeah. I mean, putting him in ballet in the 50s was...
Pretty cruel. Like, putting your kids in ballet now, fuck yeah. Everybody do ballet. Hell yeah. Like, put everybody in ballet. But back then. But, like, everybody had, it had a, yeah. It just, we're in the 50s where masculinity is looked at in a very different way. Yes. And it's like, that's, he's going to be targeted. And you know that. And if he's not passionate about ballet, which it doesn't sound like he was. Doesn't sound like he was.
then you're really doing a detriment here. It's like if he's passionate about ballet, then yeah, show him that it's okay. But otherwise, for what purpose? But you're just doing this to kind of like get him one out of your hair, but making sure he's not doing something that fulfills him or makes him happy. Yeah. While he's out of your hair. Yep. Which is like another layer of fucked up. Now, these were exacerbated by how she would dress him as well. She would make him dress in like very formal outfits. Yeah.
What? His friend there said they always dressed him up like some fancy pants, and the kids on the block were always pounding the hell out of him. Which is so shitty, because it's like, he's obviously not choosing this. No, and it's just like, fucking A, dude. This woman has a strange pathology. No, it's true, and it's just like, God, just stop being mean to people.
Now, obviously due to a variety of factors, David struggled to develop positive social skills. You don't say. And developed a reputation for now inappropriate and cruel behavior. Because he's also being shown cruel behavior. You show a child cruel behavior, they will then show others cruel behavior. Yeah.
That is cause and effect. Like, that just is. And so unable to bond with boys his own age, because that wasn't working, David would socialize with the girls in the neighborhood. They were often in the beginning very sympathetic and, like, pitied him a little bit. And we're like, you know what, let's just, like, try to help him out. You know, just girls being girls. Girls being like, come on, let's take care of you. Yeah.
While the neighborhood girls were definitely more patient with him, even their sympathy had limits, obviously. Yeah, everybody's does. One girl recalled, he usually had my sympathy, but then he'd do something cruel, like twisting the head off of some girl's doll, and he'd get that stupid smile on his face like it was a prank. So it's like he's doing things like that, and they're like, dude, we're trying to help you out, and you're like, not. Yeah, like, don't fuck with my dolls. Like, I feel like he's acting out like a typical boy, he thinks. Yeah.
like taking the head off a doll or like you know doing some kind of prank like that but it's like not because he's not been socialized to know what is of his age you know what i mean what a typical prank of his age is well and if you're ripping the heads off of dolls that's like alone that's one thing like that's a very annoying boy thing to do yeah but if it goes hand in hand with you also pulling the wings off flies i'm gonna be a little scared of you yes exactly you know
Now, his, and it gets, and it started getting worse because his cruel and inappropriate behavior started getting increasingly sexual in nature. I had a feeling that was coming. And soon he found that the girls around him were perfect targets. Or nor. Years later, he told psychiatrist Dr. Ralph Allison, I pulled down a little girl's pants for the first time when I was eight years old. Oh, Christ. Eight years old. That's a baby. Mm-hmm.
In Allison's estimation, by the time he was 10 years old, David had, quote, learned to take out his anger sexually. And that was by the time he was 10. Yeah. Which would eventually become one of the driving forces of his personality as an adult. I'm sure. You start that at 10 years old. And it was never addressed. Like, it's like...
It was not addressed until he saw the law for it. Like it was never addressed in any kind of like medical way. Yeah, they should have gotten past the doors of the hospital. Yeah, when he was a child, this should have been taken care of. By the time he was 14 years old, he had committed his first sexual assault against one of his younger family members. The assault resulted in him being committed to the Napa State Hospital and he was housed with other sex offenders there.
Upon his release, he returned to his parents' house, but everything just kept going downward. When he wasn't in school, he started spending a lot of time alone in the woods. Oh, God. Before long, he was suspected of committing burglaries in homes in and around Santa Cruz. The next year, when David was in the 10th grade, he ran away from home and hid out for a few days in the family cabin in Redwood Grove.
And this disappearance was the last straw because so the school expelled him because he stopped going to school. Oh, okay. Okay.
Now, a year after being kicked out of school, he was in trouble with the law again, and this is awful. After he committed a sexual assault against two cousins, not his cousins, but they were cousins. A pair of cousins. An eight-year-old and a three-year-old. Oh, God. He met them at Diamond Heights Park, and according to Dr. Allison's evaluation, he threatened the two with a knife, which marked the first time that he used a weapon in an assault.
Which indicates a very severe escalation in violent behavior. And this, again, this was when he was 15. Holy shit. Maybe 15 or 16. Yeah. Around there. Yeah. He was quickly arrested for the assault and sentenced to the California Youth Authority at Preston.
Do you remember that name? Yeah, we covered the Preston School, right? Yeah, the Preston School of Industry. Yeah, go back to that episode. Where he was held until his 18th birthday. Oh, fuck. After he turned 18, he was transferred to Napa State Hospital for observation, and after 90 days, he was determined no longer a threat. I don't know about that. This happened.
This is a story of many failures. It usually is. He could have been stopped many times. And incarcerated. No one had to die. Yeah. No one had to die here at all. I fucking hate that. Now, looking back, his juvenile record, which contained a number of incidents that, you know, if we looked at now in 2025, they would be the most giant red flags. Right. Five arrests for sexual assault.
one escape from juvenile detention, a long history of bragging about sexual assaults to other inmates, all of that would now be looked at as like, oh no, this is going to escalate in a big way. Yeah, like let's keep him locked up. And his personal history included several experiences and characteristics that are now associated with antisocial personalities and serial murders in particular, including a history of bedwetting and cruelty to animals.
So it's like he's got all the red flags. He's ticking all the boxes. If psychiatrists had known then what we know now, they would have had every reason to believe that David Carpenter would pose a severe threat to those around him. And it kills me that they didn't. Now in 1950, so actually most of what he was going through when he was younger was in the 40s. So I was wrong about the 50s. It's even worse. It's even worse.
In 1950, when he was 20 years old, Carpenter found work as an office assistant and messenger for the H.B. Thomas Company on Battery Street in San Francisco. One day in midsummer, he ended up picking up a girl he knew who was hitchhiking to a friend's house, and he offered to drive her the rest of the way. So he knew this girl. Uh-huh.
As they drove, he said, do you actually mind if I make a quick stop at my house? Yes, I do. And she was like, yeah, totally. Yeah, why would she take anything of that? Once inside the house, though, he started to become sexually aggressive with her. And she was like, no. And then she was like, I want to leave.
But he said, no, you're not going to leave. The girl only managed to escape after fighting him off and locking herself in the bathroom and climbing through a very small window that left outside. That's literally what nightmares are made of. And she had to run somewhere and contact the police. Now, he was quickly picked up on a charge that he, quote, willfully and feloniously made an assault upon a female under the age of 18.
with the intent to have and accomplish the act of sexual intercourse upon said female. He pled not guilty and was taken to trial, where he was acquitted. What the fuck? Hello, 1950s. For real. Hello, now. Ralph Allison's notes, though, indicate that David, quote, made no attempt to deny the allegations against him and had been quite cooperative and asked only that he be placed in a facility where he could receive help.
So he even asked for help. The 1950s, they were like, nah. You're good. Just get on out. Get on out of here. Yeah. In 1955, David ended up dating and then marrying...
A 19-year-old woman named Ellen Hedl, I believe it is. The pair met in Daly City a few years earlier. And when they met, David was briefly dating her sister, Wilhelmina. Oh, no. Yeah.
Yeah. When she broke off their relationship after only a few dates, he turned his attention to Ellen. And within a few months, they were married. That is not girl code. No. And that is not sister code. No. Sister code goes above girl code. It certainly does. And they were married at San Francisco City Hall. Less than a year later, Ellen gave birth to their first child, Michael.
and the family moved to a small house in Westlake, and David found a steady job as a shipping clerk there. Two years later, Ellen gave birth to their second child, Gabrielle, who was followed in 1960 by their third child, Cersei. By this point in his life, his attitude towards women was pretty fucking clear. He, without fail, portrayed himself as the victim of women.
Like women were to blame. His mother was to blame. Immediately. Therefore, women were to blame. He basically said everything he did, it was going to fall upon women as being the problem here, not him. He was never to be placed blame upon. It wasn't him.
And it's like, fuck you, dude. Yeah. You're your own person. Plenty of people go, I'm not saying he had a great, he had a terrible life. No, but you can't make excuses for your behavior once you become an adult. No, it's like, based on your childhood. I'm sorry, you got to look at people who make that. And again, he's in a different like time period. So I don't know like what's going on. And all the resources that we have now are not available. But still, there are still people who went through like, you really do like, you can't just blame someone.
how you were raised on how you act as an adult. You absolutely can't. You can't hurt people. It drives me crazy. And it's like so many of these guys will be like, well, I kill women because of my mom. Get over it. Really? You're going to kill women because of your mom? Not all women are your mom, and you should be able to make that differentiation. Exactly. Now, unfortunately, like we've said before, medical understandings of personalities like his...
were very poorly understood in 1950. So they weren't exactly, like, analyzing David's symptoms. Right. Instead, like, his psychiatrist, Ralph Allison, who we've cited here before, he was focusing more on, like, finding effective treatment. Yeah. Which, yeah. That's good. But, like, you also need to figure out what the fuck is going on here. And also there's just not treatment for everybody. Exactly. And as we know now, there's not treatment for people like this, really. No. No.
And from Allison's perspective, Dr. Allison, he said he thought it came down to David's stutter. I think it's a lot more than that. If he could get proper therapy for the stammer, we might be able to prevent further catastrophes of this sort. I think that's a wild point of view. Yeah. I also think that is a very wild point of view. I think that's absolutely bonkers. I think that's the most 1950s point of view I have ever seen in my life. A psychiatrist just being like...
I think if you could just speak clear that you wouldn't want to kill people. It's like, nope, I don't think that's the driving force. No. I think that's part of his struggles. Sure. And especially that that was not taken as something that like they worked through with him or made him accept and be able to, you know, work through. Right. It was treated as like...
we're ashamed of you. Like, that's awful. Of course, that's going to affect somebody. Not to this extent. I think there's other things here at play and I think we should maybe look at them. I agree with you.
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He was feeling like he was under a lot of pressure, which left him with a lot of rage. Oh, goody. Because this is not a man who can handle even the slightest inconvenience in his life. The only thing that seemed to keep his anger in check, according to Ellen, his wife at the time, was his need to have sex at least three times per night. Oh, honey. I'm not laughing at this. No, she's laughing at my reaction. I'm not laughing at Ash's face. Never! Never!
Yeah, that's... I was like, whoa. That's wild. And it's like, fucking... Poor Ellen. She has three children. Has three children, and she's dealing with this fucking man-child who is, like, abusive, uncontrollably angry, and I just, like, wonder what he presented to her. I know. You know? Like, to get, like, to get him to marry her. Right, I know. You know what I mean? Like, it is so weird how...
We hear about these men who have these awful childhoods and they have a lot of issues with girls and women. And then they find one woman who they are able to woo. Yeah. You know? And I think it's because they see that there's an end result where they can have the control they want. So they put the charm on. So they're cunning enough to know that they have to put some effort in in the beginning to, you know, like the...
means justify the end kind of thing. And vice versa. But the mask falls. That feels like it was probably the scenario. And I feel so badly for Ellen because it sounds like she was just completely entrapped in this. Well, and remember, this wasn't a time where she could even seek a divorce. Exactly. That's the other thing. Or have her own credit card. And she's got three kids now. Yeah.
But there were times that even that wasn't enough for him and he would become explosively violent with her. And then he would claim to have no recollection of it. So he's like blacking out. Or he's just lying about it and being like, I don't want to take responsibility for that. So I'm going to pretend it didn't happen. I'm sure probably like I'm sure like that counts for some instances. But I do believe that some people are so scary that they do black out. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. But I don't think it accounts for every instance. No.
Now, in mid-July 1960, he ran into an old friend, Lois D'Andrati.
Lisa Rinna's mother. I was just going to say, I don't know if that sounds familiar to you. Lisa Rinna, you guys, like, you know, she's been a soap opera actress forever. Days of our lives. She's on The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. She was. I haven't watched it in forever, but she was on it. She dances on TikTok. You might remember her mother, Lois. You better. Who passed away recently, I think. Yeah, a couple of years ago. A couple of years ago.
She was adorable. I loved Lois. Lois was the cutest. And they seemed like they were wildly close. So like, I'm sorry. And Lois went through a lot. Yeah. Yes. Lois did go through a lot because you might be saying, I'm sorry, back it up. Why are we mentioning Lois?
in this story yeah and why are we mentioning her as an old friend she was they work together i think right yeah so they had met through mutual acquaintances a few years earlier and again they had like and they had gone to coffee together a couple times in the past yeah they knew each other you know they just knew each other like they were friends yeah it was whatever but
And Lois had been on her way to work one morning when David offered her a ride. That's what it is. Again, they're friends. Cool. David's offering me a ride. It's just no reason not to accept it. Why the fuck would I care? As he'd done a few years earlier, David asked whether Lois would mind if they made a quick stop. But this time he said, hey, Lois, I got to pick up my wife, Ellen, and my new baby.
Disarming. So, of course, Lois is like, of course you can. That sounds lovely. I'd love to see the babe. But the more they drove, the more Lois began to wonder whether they were actually going to pick up his wife and baby.
Finally, David pulled over on a side street, and Lois immediately knew something wasn't right. She later said, Wow. Oh, my God.
And she's unable to move and he pulled out rope and a knife from the glove compartment and threatened her to keep quiet. And later she said, he told me to be quiet and if I was quiet, he wouldn't kill me. But if I made any noise, he would.
Now, the entire scene was fucking terrifying and completely confusing to Lois, who'd known Carpenter for years. And she was like, I'd never seen him behave violently. His violent shit was contained. Yeah. To his home. Right. Behind closed doors. Yeah, I was just gonna say. Everyone else saw this pretty normal...
like, guy. Yeah. Like, they're just David. Like, what? So, I can't imagine knowing someone for years and then having them snap on you like this. That must be, and like, it would be paralyzing. Yeah. And she said it was. She was like, I literally didn't know what to, I was like, what are you talking about? You'll kill me? Like, what? Right.
So she later said she thought perhaps David went crazy. That's a quote. I was so terrified, I don't think I moved after that. Yeah. And although she wasn't planning on moving at that point because she was terrified, she was looking around and scanning her surroundings, trying to look for anything that could help her get out of this situation. So she's desperately searching for a sign of anyone around her, and David reached into the back seat and grabbed a hammer.
At the same time that he was doing that, Lois spotted a car a few dozen yards away. And without thinking, she threw her hand out and slammed down on the car horn. Just to, that's the only thing she could think of. But Carpenter immediately slashed at her with the knife he had, slicing into her hand. Oh. He ended up lacerating tendons in two of her fingers. Oh.
Now, despite that injury, which is a pretty fucking massive injury. That's gnarly. Lois managed to get the door open and she tumbled out and hit the ground running.
David Carpenter got out and fucking chased her at full speed. Oh my God. This must have been horrifying. Absolutely. He did. He caught up with her and he raised, he's right behind her running after her and he raised the hammer to hit her in the head. But just as he came down with it, she threw her hands up to deflect the blow from the hammer and the hammer struck a watch she was wearing and shattered it. But,
There was only a brief moment of luck because he raised the hammer again and brought it right down on her head and it made contact. So she knocked it right to the ground and he struck her five more times in the head with the hammer. I didn't realize that. Oh, yeah. I thought she got out of this like unharmed. Oh, no. She got ruthlessly beaten in the head with this hammer. Holy shit. Barely conscious, she managed to scream for help, which caught the attention of...
of a military police officer, Jewel Wayne Hicks, who happened to be driving down the narrow street at the time. Whoa. What are the odds? And also, a military police officer caught this man doing this, but we have eight stories of murder to tell. Yeah. Huh. That should be your first...
Like knowledge of how many times this is a failure to keep an absolute animal locked up. Ticking box number one. Yeah. Whoa. So Hicks, the military police officer, slammed on his brakes, got out and ran in the direction of the car and the screams.
And he was holding a riot baton in one hand and a .45 pistol in the other. And that's the way we got out of the car, folks. That's how we get out of the car for one of these scenes. At first, he couldn't see the two people on the ground since there was a car door in the way. Right, right. But he could hear the sounds, and he said he immediately knew what was happening. By the time he made it to the car, Carpenter was on top of Lois, still hitting her with the hammer. Jesus. And Hicks said, even when he saw me coming down the hill, he kept hitting her.
So he saw this man and just kept hitting Lois. So that makes you, like, honestly question if he is in a blind rage at this point. It's so scary. Because that is... And I think it's how you define a blind rage. Like, I still think he knows what he's doing is wrong. But, like, you're looking at a police officer and you're not stopping? I think he is singularly focused on...
On his rage. He's an animal. And the focus of his rage. Yeah. And it just doesn't matter. But that's so wild to think of somebody's thought process. Because then Officer Hicks shouted for him to stop, obviously. And that caused David to jump up and run. But he ran at Hicks, swinging the hammer at him. He's a madman. And he said he was, quote, screaming in rage.
Oh, that's horrifying. So he's just an animal. Yep. And when the officer finally managed to successfully fend off the hammer with his baton, Carpenter pulled out a, quote, fountain pen tear gas gun.
And fired it in Hicks' face. Bitch, what? So he came fully prepared to incapacitate someone. I had no idea that this was this. That this was this. I also didn't know that. They briefly discussed this at a dinner on Housewives. Briefly.
Over sushi, I believe. Holy fuck. The gun produced a large plume of smoke, which confused Hicks momentarily. But he wasn't quite sure what happened. He just got hit in the face with this tear gas pen. Which is nothing new for a military police officer. No, and he said he recognized the sound of a gunshot. Oh, fuck. And instinctively raised his pistol and fired in the direction of where Carpenter was. Yeah.
And Hicks didn't know where he was at the time, but he still managed to hit Carpenter twice. Once in the abdomen and once in the leg, which knocked him off his feet and caused him to shout that he surrendered. So he got shot twice. And surrendered. Hello? Now, I want to be good. So when you guys hear this, that he was on top of this woman...
hitting her in the head with a hammer repeatedly. What would you say is the end result that he was probably looking for by doing that? Either rape or murder. Both, I would say. You don't hit someone five times in the head with a hammer and not assume that they're going to die. Yep. He was trying to murder her. Yep. 100%. Yeah, definitely murder. I was just questioning. He was dead. I'm sure he was also going to do that. But this is...
A murder that he failed at. Yep. This isn't assault. No, this is attempted murder. This is a murder that he failed to commit. And you guys know how we feel about attempted murder. So with Carpenter incapacitated, Hicks went back to his car and radioed for backup, which arrived very quickly. Lois was taken to the hospital. She was treated for a fractured skull, which was broken in two places. Her skull was shattered in two places. It's remarkable that she survived this. Yeah.
And she also had severe lacerations on her hands and face. After multiple surgeries, during which metal plates were placed in her skull and tendons were grafted in two fingers, and nearly two months of hospitalization, she was
She recovered. Unreal. But she never regained full use of those fingers. Aww. In her statement to police, Lois detailed what happened from the moment Carpenter picked her up, including that he had told her, quote, I have a sex quirk, just moments before attacking her. A quirk? A quirk. Babe, that's not a kink. Like, a quirk?
David Carpenter was taken to Letterman General Hospital where surgeons removed the two bullets from his body. I know, unfortunately, before he was cuffed to a bed. And he recovered there before being transferred to San Quentin like a little over a week later, I think it was, to await his hearing. Okay.
This, it turned out, would take much longer than expected because due to his injuries and his claims of mental illness, it was going to go a lot longer than just like charge him, let's go. In the two months that followed, he was evaluated twice by psychiatrists before finally being indicted on September 22nd, where a grand jury returned four counts of assault that if convicted would have put him in jail for 30 years.
Which, like, cool. Cool 30 years, but that's not just assault. Where's the attempted murder charge? Right. Like, are we really pretending that he wasn't trying to kill her? He fractured her skull in two places and hit her over five times with a hammer. And sliced her hands open. Like, he attacked her with a knife and a hammer. Yeah. Are we all okay? At his arraignment in October, Carpenter pled not guilty, and his lawyer indicated their intent to plead insanity as a defense. But you already got evaluated. Yeah. No.
Instead, just as they were preparing to go to trial, he accepted a plea deal from the prosecution and pled guilty to one count of assault with a deadly weapon.
I'll say, I understand plea deals for certain things. They piss me off, but I get them. This? Yeah, I don't see this one. I feel like they would have got him on all those four counts. Well, and Judge Oliver Carter wasn't certain he would accept the deal. I don't blame him. And instead, he ordered Carpenter to a 90-day hold in federal prison where he was going to be examined thoroughly by psychiatrists.
And on March 9th, 1961, Carpenter was back in front of a judge after having been evaluated many times at San Quentin. And after reading the reports, which diagnosed Carpenter as a sociopathic personality...
Uh-huh. The judge deems David A. quote, personality who should be locked away in the interests of society. That's completely correct. Thank you, sir. Given the brutality of the attack and his past offenses, he sentenced him to 14 years in federal prison. Okay, like I wish it was the full 30, though. Yeah.
But then for some reason, the judge kind of like softened somewhat after announcing the ruling. Oliver. And recommended the parole board conduct routine evaluations and release Carpenter, quote, at any time he is considered rehabilitated. Oliver. Like, I'm sorry, what the fuck? You literally said he's a threat to society. Yeah. And then they're like, hey, parole board, like, keep tabs on that, though. Check it out. If you feel like it's cool that day, just let him out. Yeah. It's
Just be cool, man. Don't be all uncool. He was diagnosed as a sociopathic personality. Yup. And tried to kill this woman. Yeah, and this officer. Tried to kill Lois and this officer. Yup.
So after the sentence was passed, Ellen filed for divorce. Oh, good. Listing their separation as July 12th, 1960, the night of the attack on Lois. Wow, good for her. That is women supporting women. Hell yeah. And she cited extreme cruelty as a reason. Yeah. And wrongfully inflicting upon her grievous mental suffering.
I guess you could file for divorce back then as a woman. The divorce was finalized on August 27th, 1962, and Carpenter was ordered to pay $1 per month in child support and $1 per month in alimony. They got three kids. Yeah. She was awarded the couple's assets, including the house. That's good. And they granted her request for a restraining order to prevent David from, quote, annoying or molesting the children. Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah.
I don't know if that means what that word means. There's terms, legal terms, that that can mean, like, bothering. Yeah. Which is weird, I know. But I'm not sure how that one was used. Okay. Belesting is what I'm talking about. Okay. But he is also, he has, like, pedophilic tendencies, so it's like, I couldn't name that. Who knows? Right. But I am not positive. Yeah. Yeah.
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Now, in the meantime, David was sent to McNeil Island's correctional facility and began serving his sentence on April 12th, 1961.
Now, he applied for parole in 1964, but it was unanimously rejected. Good. In April 1969, however, he came up for parole a second time, and his petition was granted. Bad. On the grounds that he'd served the minimum nine-year sentence. What about the maximum, though? We don't want to talk about that today? And also, like, okay, we're not going to, like... So he just served his minimum sentence, so you're going to let him out? So it's all good? Regardless of what kind of person he is?
So now he's a free man. Christ. And he moved in with his stepbrother, William, and began taking welding classes at the local vocational school. I feel as though we shouldn't offer people like that welding classes. Let's not give him tools. I don't think. Yeah. In his free time, he started attending group therapy on the recommendation of his parole officer. And it was there that he met Helen.
Bad question mark? David and Helen began dating that spring, and on August 8th, 1969, they were married at City Hall. That was quick. He gets that woman to marry him quickly. Yeah. William Carpenter, his stepbrother, was the witness to the marriage. It appears little is known about this period of his life. He remained in regular contact with his probation officer at this point, and he was meeting all the conditions of his parole for a while. So he's probably laying low at this point. Yeah. Yeah.
Then, rather suddenly, he cut off all communication with the probation officer and the parole board that December. Huh.
And he had like years left on his probation, so there's no reason for this. And around the same time, Helen, having been driven to what author Robert Graysmith referred to as, quote, the edge of a nervous breakdown, left California on a long trip to Hawaii and just left her husband behind. Damn. Yeah. Who knows what that poor woman endured. Who knows what was going on. The fact that she left the entire state of California tells us everything we need to know. Yeah.
Now, without anyone watching over him, it didn't take long before David Carpenter began losing control of his rage. On the evening of January 27, 1970, he went out for a drive on Highway 280 towards Santa Cruz, and at some point, the driver of a passing car, who was a young blonde woman, caught his attention.
and for no explicable reason, she became the focus of his fucking rage. Oh, no. Without any warning to this driver, David sped up beside her and forced her car off the road. Oh, that's so scary. She's just driving. That is so scary. Terrified, she jumped out of the car and ran into the underbrush, quickly losing him.
and he stood at the side of the road and called out to her in threatening voices. What the fuck? But when he heard no sounds, he got back in his Volkswagen Beetle and steered the car back onto the highway. That poor girl. Holy shit.
I just can't imagine later in life being like, what would have happened? And did she ever even realize that it was him? I don't know. You know? Yeah, that's the thing. It's like, that's why. Imagine thinking back to that and being like, oh my God. Like, and you just read this and you're like, holy fuck. A short time later, a little past 10 p.m., he found himself driving on Highway 9 towards Boulder Creek, where the only other car on the road easily caught his attention again because he's pissed.
Determined to relieve his tension and anger, he pressed the accelerator and rammed his car into the other driver, who was 19-year-old Cheryl Lynn Smith. Oh, my God.
Thinking the man was drunk, she shouted at him. She was like, fuck you, dude. But Carpenter ignored her and they pulled over to the side of the road and he started like a quote unquote evaluating the damage. Oh my God. So Smith got out of her car and was looking over the damage as well. And then Carpenter's hand shot out and grabbed her by the neck. Oh, that's awful. He grabbed her by the neck and said, I want to rape you. I'll have to kill you if you don't come with me. Oh God. Oh my God.
Like, what the fuck? So, and this is, like, graphic, I apologize. Carpenter dragged her into the brush where he literally tore off her clothing and violently sexually assaulted her. As Cheryl tried to get out of his grasp, he sliced her arm with his knife, partially severing the muscles and rendering it temporarily useless. Oh my god, the...
The force that would take. Yeah. And she said, so she's trying to get away from him. He does this. And then she said she finally was like, I'm just going to look at him because she wasn't looking at him. And she said she looked at him and she said she was stunned because she said all I had seen up till that point was this like violent, scary man. And she was like, suddenly he looked totally different.
What? Suddenly, she said his features had softened and he spoke to her with a pronounced stutter suddenly, which he didn't have before. Uh-huh. And she said to her bewilderment, he looked at her and said, look, you're hurt and bleeding. Let me follow you home and I'll bandage you up and I'll promise not to, if you promise not to call the police.
That's so scary. And, like, said it in, like, a, like, look, you're hurt and bleeding. Not, like, oh, my God, I hurt you. Fuck. It was, like, oh, my God. Like, how did that happen? But it softened into, like, oh, no. Like, I didn't mean, like, what? You violently raped her. Like, what do you mean? And Cheryl was, like, no, I'm good. Like, it's good. And then she managed to get back to her own car and drove away. And he just let her. Oh, that poor girl. Yeah.
But 19 years old. But as she's driving home, she notices that he's driving behind her. Oh, no. And he was keeping distance, but he was behind her. And so she saw a large hotel in the distance. So she drove in the direction of what she was hoping would be help. And he was driving behind her the entire way. So she gets into the very well lit parking lot and he sped off.
So he was planning on following her right to her house. But she managed to write down his license plate. Smart. She immediately reported the attack to police and gave them the license plate number. And she described her attacker as white, 30 to 35 years of age, 5 feet 10 inches, 160 pounds, and brown hair. That same night, an anonymous caller reported witnessing what appeared to be a fender bender accident on Highway 9, which is that.
So later it was discovered that Cheryl was the second woman that he had attacked that day. The first was a woman named Wilma Joyce. Now this isn't the blonde woman who ran away from him. This is another one. Oh, so they think it's two. Really, it was three. Yeah. So far. Yeah. That afternoon, Joyce had returned home from a shopping trip to find Carpenter waiting in her house with a shotgun. Nope. Nope. Yeah. Yeah.
walked in from shopping to him sitting in her home with a shotgun. Do you know, that's one of my biggest fears. That is the scariest thing I've ever heard. That's, oh, fuck. That's literally horror movie shit. That is horror movie shit. And he forced her to leave with him in her car and the two drove for a short time before he sexually assaulted her and then let her out of the car.
What? This is awful, too. In the days after that, he kidnapped and assaulted two other women, one of whom had a toddler in the car with her. Oh.
And stole a car from a third woman. Why was he not stopped? This is crazy. When they were interviewed by police, all the women identified David Carpenter as their attacker. Like they knew his name? Unanimously. They were able to identify him. Oh, okay. Now, Carpenter was arrested at a motel in Modesto on February 3rd, 1970. Okay.
after a week-long manhunt conducted by the Santa Cruz County Sheriff's Department. And this is when he should be put away forever. Because he has a violent past that he's now continuing. He has just assaulted numerous women. Numerous women after assaulting Lois, the police officer, and just dodging parole. Yeah. Yep.
So at the time of his arrest, the district attorneys in Santa Cruz County and nearby Calaveras County filed charges against him for attempted rape, rape, kidnapping and assault.
And because he had been on parole at the time with four years left on his sentence, he was placed in Calaveras County Jail pending a transfer to a prison where he could serve out the rest of his sentence. So he has now also violated parole. These are all huge charges. Massive. David was held at Calaveras County Jail for two months until he managed to escape on the night of April 26th.
According to the press, he was being held in a cell with four other men and they managed to cut through the bars and all five of them escaped out of a skylight. And that's why we don't let prisoners just hang out together in their cells. Also, they were unsure how they cut through the bars, but a spokesperson for the sheriff's office said they may have used a hacksaw blade. I'm sorry, where the fuck did they get a hacksaw blade?
My question, exactly. These violent prisoners had access to a hacksaw blade. Just, oops, we forgot the hacksaw blade was in there. I'm a normal bitch. I don't have access to a hacksaw blade. Yeah. I've never committed a violent crime. The fuck? And how would they, one, have a hacksaw blade, and two, have enough time to...
hacksaw through bars. Like, that's gonna also make some noise. No one was looking at them? No one was checking? I wonder if they, like, bribed a guard or something. Yeah. Now, the good news is all five of them were rounded up the following day. That's good. And while the other four were returned to jail to await their trials, David Carpenter was transferred to Soledad Prison. On July 17th, a grand jury in Santa Cruz indicted Carpenter for rape, attempted rape, kidnapping, and assault.
District Attorney Peter Chang told the press, right now Carpenter is serving a minimum five-year sentence. If we can make the aggravated kidnapping charge stick, the term will be increased to life. Let's go. Already serving a sentence of one to 25 years for the charges in Calaveras County on October 8th, Carpenter pleaded guilty to one count of rape and one count of armed robbery, and in exchange, he was given a sentence of five years. That's bullshit.
They should be ashamed of this. Absolutely, they should. All these deaths are on their hands. 100%. Now, despite Peter Chang thinking that he would be able to lock him up for life, David would only spend nine years at Soledad Prison until being paroled to a halfway house in late May 1979. You guys did this before, though. Yeah, you did it before and it didn't work out. He just failed. What? What?
And just like the last time he was released out on parole way too soon, it didn't take long before he returned right back to his old habits. Yeah, I bet. Yep. Now, on May 21st, 1979, he was released on parole. And by that time, Helen had divorced him. And he was to remain on probation until 1982. So he was sent to live at Reality House West, which
which was a halfway house for federal prisoners transitioning back into society, which is not something he should have been. No. As part of his parole conditions, he was required to find a job. So he started taking classes at the vocational center and eventually began participating in courses in computer repair. Okay. Around this time, he also took up hiking around Santa Cruz. No. And developed a particular fondness for the trails on Mount Tomalpais.
which I think they call it Mount Tam for sure. Oh, I've heard of Mount Tam. It's a popular hiking spot in Marin County, about 10 miles outside San Francisco. At the foot of the mountain was a small community of renters, including John and Etta Kane. Now, on the morning of August 19th, 1979, Etta Kane was preparing for a four-hour hike that the couple had planned to take together that afternoon.
Unfortunately, John's arthritis was acting up that morning, so he was unable to take the hike with Etta. She was a very experienced hiker, so she just decided to go alone. Several hours passed and Etta had still not returned home. This caused John to be very anxious. His wife was very skilled, but it was getting dark. So he called the sheriff's department and reported it, and deputies were sent out immediately to look for Etta.
Now, sheriff's deputies, along with a search and rescue team and packs of dogs, combed the mountain all night. But by dawn, they still hadn't found Etta. And her car was still in the parking lot where it had been all night. That's chilling. The only other car that John noticed in the parking lot that morning, other than the members of the search team, was a Volkswagen Beetle that had been there since the previous evening. Why is it always a Volkswagen Beetle? Yep, and he drives one.
Oh. Oh.
So she is nude except for one sock in a kneeling position with her face down. That's awful. The discovery was shocking for about a million reasons, not the least of which was the fact that while sheriff's deputies had found many bodies on Mount Tam, to their knowledge, Etta was the first person to be murdered on the mountain. Right. That alone made the press immediately take notice and start reporting the story. Now...
In interviews with those who'd been at the mountain that day, that Etta went missing, several people reported seeing a single man hiking around the same time Etta was. Lieutenant Robert Gadini told reporters, we are by no means certain the man murdered Etta Kane, but investigators were just trying to come up with a composite sketch of this man from the witnesses' descriptions. Yeah. Otherwise, there was very little evidence that could point investigators towards any suspect. Right.
There were rumors, and they were rumors, that Etta had been having an affair with a younger man. So detectives did wonder whether he might have been involved or whether John might have killed her out of jealousy. That was like their initial thoughts. Yeah. They got to go to like that. Yeah, they have to. John Kane was quickly ruled out. That's good. But police shifted their attention to the younger man that Etta had allegedly been seeing. Although he denied seeing Etta that day, the man still couldn't account for his whereabouts. So detectives couldn't rule him out.
Um, a sergeant working the case later said after Etta's death, John Kane just withered away without her and eventually died. Oh, that's so sad. Um, as for the young man, he killed himself while we were investigating him. Oh, wow. That must have been so strange. Yeah. That's bizarre. Yeah. So that is where we're going to leave you in part one. All right. But, um, yeah, it's a lot and it, um,
It's going to keep going. That's a crazy lead up. Yeah. Wow. And he...
This is only the first murder. I was just, yeah, that's what I mean. We have seven more. We had a full part one with one murder. Yeah, but his assaults are enough to... They're gnarly. His assaults are basically attempted murder. Yeah, they are. All of them. But yeah, he's a horrible, horrible human being. Like, very horrible. He really is. And he somehow gets worse. Well, with that being said, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird.
Weird, but not so weird that you don't tune in to part two. Oof. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Hi, weirdos. I'm Candace DeLong, retired FBI criminal profiler and the host of Killer Psyche. If you enjoyed Morbid's coverage of the tragic murder of Jennifer Levin, known as the Preppy Killer case, you should check out my episode of Killer Psyche,
where I dive deep into the psychology of Robert Chambers. I explore his troubling behavior, privileged background, and the psychological factors that led to this devastating crime. On Killer Psyche, I use my decades of experience to uncover the why behind some of the most shocking crimes in history.
If you are fascinated by what drives people to commit such heinous acts, join me for a closer look into the twisted minds behind them. Follow Killer Psyche on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Wondery Plus subscribers can listen early and ad-free. Start your free trial in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify today.