Change Your Relationship With Alcohol – How to Control Your Urge to Drink
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Head to your nord stream rack store to score great brands, great Prices, the greatest gifts of all time. Hey, is your friend mell, and welcome to the male Robin's by cast. okay.

I'm so glad you're here here today because today is one of those conversations where I need you to put your arms around me, you know, say that the male Robin's podcast is like you and I go in on a walk together and sort out life and all kinds of topics together. Well, today I want to talk about something that spent on my mind for a long time, and that is my relationship with alcohol. And if i'm being an honest, i've resisted having this conversation on the podcast because i'm not ready to remove alcohol for my life entirely.

But I am so conflicted about drinking. I know it's bad for my health. I have so many other healthy habits, and yet I still love to have a cocktail.

I still love to have a glasses wine. And maybe it's because Chris doesn't only drink that much. And so I often, and confronted with drive a glass wine alone, do I not? And this isn't just a conversation about alcohol.

You may not have any issue with alcohol. You may be sober. You may not really drink at all. You may be able to have one beer, one glass wine and never think about IT, but you probably have something else in your life that you are conflicted about.

Maybe it's how much money you spend, maybe it's an addiction to sugar, maybe play way too many video games so you spend too much time growing on social media, you know it's a problem. Or maybe you wonder if its a problem and you keep going back and forth. I should stop, but I don't stop.

Should I stop? I don't know. What should I do? Well, a friend of mine told me about this incredible woman named Rachel heart. Rachel is an expert at helping people understand their urges and create healthier and Normal relationships with the things in life that you crave. Her work focuses on creating, quote, a Normal relationship with alcohol, whatever that might mean for you.

But everything that we're going to talk about today is going to help you take control of any area of your life where you feel this conflict or you feel out of control or you wonder if you have a problem and you just can't seem to get to the bottom of IT. Here we go, put you on around me because this is to be one of those episodes where i'm processing my feelings in real time. Live in our conversation as you and I walking and talking.

So let's do this. Rachel heart. Welcome to the male Robin's podcast. Thank you. Okay, Rachel, we're just gonna mp in with a confessional.

Is that okay? I mean, is this the way we should tell me this thing? Okay, great. I've just noticed that I have a lot of edit about IT.

Should I drink? Should I not drink? Is a bad if i'm drinking and I want us to talk to you because I just love your approach. I love your approach to, as you say, having a quote, Normal relationship with alcohol in your life, understanding your urges. And I don't even know where to begin.

The more that I learned about neuroscience and the body and the fact that alcohol is poisoning, the more i'm thinking to myself, why the fuck of my drinking if IT is bad for me? Oh yeah, I know. Because I like the taste of IT.

And every once in a while it's funda celebrate with friends. So that's me, that's me. The hot mess. Melrose, maybe not a hot mess bit.

maybe not to be flat is not of yes, of course, this is I always say that the relationship that you have an alcohol is such a window into the relationship that you have with yourself. And so from that place, that can be so much more than, oh, I just don't want to drink anymore, or I want to drink less, or I want to just make more intentional choices. And I think all of those are great goals, but the the idea of, you know, what is that that you really want, like what is that that you really desire? I talk to people about that a lot, and I think that the work that you do to change your relationship with alcohol can be such a powerful window into that.

This is also such a highly charged issue, right? And so a lot of times people have that intuition and they have that kind of inner knowing of, like, I don't know, maybe I want to look more closely at this, but then like, okay, what does that mean? Do I have to stop drinking ing for the rest of my life? And do I have to put a label on? So what you are experiencing, I just want to say, very Normal, the conflict that you have.

You know, for a long time I was like, do I have a split personality? What is going on? Because part of me had so much desire and love to drink, and part of me was also like, want to know that this is creating the best outcomes for you. And I thought that that conflict was a sign that something was wrong with me, rather than, you know, you've got two different parts of your brain that care about different things. And so yeah, you're going to be conflicted sometimes about your desires.

That's Normal is IT appropriate for me to tell you this soon in our relationships that I love you. I've started to think about this like there's something wrong with me and I have a problem. And when I look at everybody's relationship with alcohol, IT is kind of fucked up.

I even look at our twenty some things and their relationship with alcohol's crazy, you know like they just go on these vendors and then it's like I am not going to drink all week. I going to get back healthy again and that's what I used to be like. And I think about how much effort goes into the am I going to a have a genetic ic tonight or am I not gonna anything at all? And then if I do have a drink, I should probably takes mad well before I go to bed.

And the whole cycle that happens in the morning when you feel kind of hung over and I wake up and i'm like, why did I do that now i'm not as clear and I don't feel like exercising and I probably shouldn't have had that wine and a taste like shit anyway. IT was a lot of sugar, and so I realize that there's a lot of active energy that I have around alcohol. And I wanted to talk to because I like i'm pretty sure I don't have a problem.

But what I do have a problem with is the amount of conflict that I feel like i'm doing something wrong and yeah, I feel like I A split personality because I literally argue for IT and against IT every single time I use IT where i'm like, well, just a genet tonic for god sakes I mean, it's just like, who cares and then am I well know, the poison and you know, you said you were going to do tonight so you're a liar and that means you have a problem and then I will no, I don't because I just having agent and tonic for god six, then I fill IT up with to cheek after that. What's wrong with that? Well, you know, you said you work, got a drink and then that to this and then you're gona sleep like chick, because you're in metaphor and like, it's like this beat down. So yeah, help me, help me, help all of us.

How do you start doing this? Do you drink? I have so many questions.

Yeah, okay. Well, I mean, I will say that I started drinking in college. I was seventeen and I Better drinker .

than you are. I started at fourteen men.

I was very quickly like, oh, this is the solution to all my problem. Like we don't have to feel awkward, we don't have to feel anxious. I don't have to listen to any of my internal critic or any of my, you know, hang ups.

This is amazing. Where has this span? That was my experience.

What you're describing, the kind of twenty something that I like, would work very hard during the week. Also during the week, a constant kind of, P. S. Don't ever make any mistakes, don't do anything wrong. You must do everything perfectly.

And then the weekend for me, was my outlet to be like, okay, like, finally, not only do I get to stop feeling ancient, awkward and have these hang ups, but also, I can, like, be a little wild and mess up. And this is the way to feel sexy and comfort and have fun. And so, you know, that was something that my brain was learning.

And I think it's really important to to reiterate that we are learning something when we drink. The brain is always learning. So if we're not just learning to acquire the taste, we're learning, hey, this is what we do when we washed the game or sporting events or at celebrations or on vacations.

So we're learning both when we do IT, and we're also learning, this is how I relax, right? This is how I connect. This is how I open up. And so all of that is unconsciously happening below the surface. And I think we get to this point where we start to want to examine our drinking and maybe I want to to drink less or may be i'm not sure about this and we are trying to do IT from this place of, okay, well, I know it's not good for me, right? I know I shouldn't do this, or I should would be more responsible as opposed to, hey, we know, what does my brain learned, right?

Can I start to understand that? Can I start to teach my brain something different about what alcohol is a symbol for? I mean, IT becomes a symbol for so many things, and I think we just look at IT from the super efficient. Like, I just like the taste right, or like I was like, i'm just the craft cocktails that my thing I like the ceremony and the .

smoke and the spring of mary that comes out of that simbo that they serve IT in for twenty dollars, right?

But t rather there is so much. And do you think about IT? You know you go to a fancy restaurant and you're getting the wine pairing and the summer is coming over and it's you're getting all this information about, you know where IT was grown in the type of grape. And yeah, I think we are like building up all of this kind of excitement and drama around IT. And by the way, i'm not saying any of that is bad, but I think we just have to understand that like there's a reason that we attached all this kind of symbolism and desire and and what IT starts to represent.

So that's all going on, you know and then we have the other side of, okay, well, if I had too much to drink, I was obviously bid um and I should know Better and why am I still making the same mistakes? I should have grown out of this by now. So there is this idea that all of our desire and urges should just be conquered by our intellect, and that doesn't make any sense.

I just love everything that are saying because i'm starting to realize that one of the reasons why i've never been drawn tour, just being a person that doesn't have alcohol in their life, I know for some people, it's incredibly important and empowering. And IT is the choice that is the right choice and the choice you need to make.

But for me, there is something about IT that felt like a part of the thing i'm already doing, which is making myself wrong about the urges. And I ve always said to myself that I just wish I could be the kind of person the had no drama around IT that if I wanted a glass wine, I had a glass wine in the moment, I wouldn't have this whole shame cycle and conflict of whether or not i'm going to drink or not drink. And when you said the thing about how it's part of how we watch sports, IT made me realize there are so many stories that your brain has learned about when and where and why you drink alcohol.

And I think the single two bigger stories for me are, number one, that alcohol for me is about belonging, not belonging to the alcohol, but my brain has hardwired the moment that I first had a drink when I was fourteen years old, and I was dating somebody who was two grades are ahead of me. And in at that point in time, I IT was still grandfather. And that if you are eighteen, you could buy alcohol.

And michigan. And so my boyfriend could buy alcohol, and we got to lake michigan. I really first stating, we pull into the state park, and there are all the seniors out there. And my boy from a junior and I was a freshman, and I was so scared because I was the only freshman that was out of the beach, the sun was setting. We get out of the car, he grabs my hand, we walk towards all his friends.

And one of the goals turns me and says himself, would you like a roman coke? And when he handed me that roman coke in a red solo cup, I immediately expanded and was like, okay, i'm part of the group. And so the trigger for me is any time the waiter comes around or i'm going over to a friends house, this has happened last night.

I I was not planning on having anything to drink lass, night. And then I went over to my friend's house. SHE had two glasses out and a bottles and care, and SHE poured two glasses and said, let's go walk around the garden.

And i'm like, okay, you know, like me, i'm going to join in with you. And IT feels good to join in. And and the sunset tasted great.

I had a glass wine that was that. And then I came home. But of course, as i'm driving home, Rachel, i'm like, why do you do that?

Yeah, you're making that mean that you did something wrong? Yes, I supposed to like, can we just love your brain for a second that it's like, hey, I wanna belong how Normal love me, how human of me that I wanna feel connected, right? And at some point we are fourteen and the brains, like all this, is how we belong.

Like, you have the red solo cup. I have the red solo cup look belonging. And so that's what i'm talking about when i'm saying, like, what was your brain learning right now? You may not have made consciously that connection in that moment, but at some point your brain did make that connection IT did make that association.

And so then it's like we if if this is a symbol of belonging and I want to belong because who doesn't that's like, okay. So I go see my friend and SHE purred two drinks. And I like, no, thank you. Are we disconnected now?

Do I not belong? The other moment that I really love to have a drink is after a really awesome busy day at work. It's a celebration and IT is a lever because I work so hard that's like, oh, this is signaling to my brain that I can turn off the working brain and I can shift down into, oh, it's time to relax, not think about workers.

De IT begins a boundary, right? And so talk about a bound .

lot of all and go wait a minute. Wait, wait. So a drink becomes a boundary. That is genius.

I'm off the clock, right? This is my boundary. I have poured the drink. I am off the clock.

Oh my god, you're right.

And so then it's like, okay, so now i'm going to try to say, no, I didn't understand that I was a boundaries so now my brains like, okay, so we're still on the clock and I have to keep thinking but I ve been thinking all day long I don't want to to think about work anymore. This is my permission not to think .

I working love you. I feel like you are literally showing me a whole new world because I ve made IT so much about the alcohol that i'm i'm conflicted on the surface and what you're trying to get us to see is hold on a sec, drop deeper into what the where and when means and why you have the urge.

Like like it's almost as if you're saying let's just remove alcohol from the conversation for a minute and let's talk about this urge that you have and why there's such a conflict. Holy shit. Yeah, you've just kind of .

unconsciously practice saying yes for a number of different reasons and IT will often kind of just be under this umbrella of I just like to drink, right? I like the way that makes me feel, but you're an autopilot. And in order to get you off, we have to start to figure out how do I interrupt and how do we interact? The habit can be as simple as literally naming IT and Normalizing IT.

And so this is something that I teach people very early on and seems kind of too simple to work to really just you know, maybe you're um maybe you're like sitting on the couch watching T V and watching a show and you see someone drinking and then also like that would be good or maybe you find yourself like getting up at your couch headed to the kitchen and you're like, how what am I even doing right? Just like all said and you know, oh, i'm like going to pour a drink or you're driving home and and you have that kind of like, oh, I could like, stop at the wine shop and pick up a bottle of wine to just name what's happening and then Normalize what's happening is so powerful. And what I mean by that is simply like, oh, this is an urge.

I'm having an urge, of course, like, of course, my brain is expecting a reward right now because it's used to my day is done, let's have a glass of wine or IT expects that when we cook dinner we have a glass of wine. So naming IT, so naming what's happening and then also Normal alizon IT. So not making IT a problem, not making IT mean that something is wrong with you IT like just that alone sometimes is enough to interrupt the habit.

It's enough to kind of take you off autopilot because all the sad, you're in the place of being the watch. So you're watching what's happening inside of your brain. You're naming IT. So you're in that place of authority.

And you're also, I think, turning down the anxiety level because when people who want to change their relations but alcohol, they can start to have a lot of anxiety about the intensity of their urges or about how many excuses they have. I have a lot of people who say, all my brain is so tRicky will come up with all these excuses and he just like, no, no. Like that's what the lower brain does. And I would say, like one of the thoughts for me along as time, as just, I deserve IT. Yes, there that I said that I I .

literally was just like, I cking work card. I have no vices other than swearing and having a cocktail. Seriously, like, is IT really coming to this? Ml, really? Like, come on women, you do a lot of good in the world.

You're a kind person. Occasion, eat a danish. I mean, you might hit the weed every once in a while, but you know that's organic. So you want to an antoni or to kill on the rocks. Give yourself a fucking and break like literally I deserve IT.

What's the IT and I deserve IT.

The IT, I guess, is. It's turning my brain. Oh, it's a reward. It's the boundary permission .

to stop thinking about work.

yes.

I mean, just there's so much awareness and insight that is available if you are able to approach your urgent as like a source of inner intelligence, like it's trying to communicate something to you, something that you're desire, something that you need, something that you want and maybe has nothing to do with alcohol.

We get so caught in the story as opposed to maybe it's trying to tell me something about a deeper desire, maybe it's trying to communicate, hey, what do I actually need? Maybe I need a boundary, maybe I need to give myself permission, maybe I need more belonging, maybe I need more pleasure. But we can't get that information if the urge is always thing that we hate and we wish would go away. And why do I have so many? And you know, why is that so hard for me?

Reach what you're talking about now is the crux of this whole topic because it's not about alcohol at all least. That's what i'm getting from you. The alcohol is just what we are doing in response to the urge.

And what you're saying is the urge is what you need to start to understand. In my case, that means the urge to belong or the urge to set up a boundary and turn my work brain off. It's not really about the taste of a gene tonic.

It's that the taste of the gene antony has gotten infused with that urge. wow. Okay, we got a lot of impact. yeah. So let's have here a word from our amazing sponsors.

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Welcome back. I'm mell Robins and I am so gad, you're here. You got your arms around me on this walk.

We're taken together and we've got Rachel heart here who works with clients around the world who want to change their relationship with alcohol, whether that means going completely sober or IT means just taking control. And what Rachel s. Been teaching is that this really isn't about the alcohol. It's about taking control of urges, urges to drink, urges spend money to stand bed when you said you would exercise to reach for your phone, when you feel bored to play video games for hours on end, and learning how to control your urges and your responses to them. That's a secret to everything.

yeah. So I wanted start with the word control because I think a lot of times people come to this work and they think, oh, I controlling my urges would be, I can make them go away. You can, well, unless you can get rid of your lower brain, we're not to be able to make the urge go away.

Can you tell us about that? At a very basic level, we have a lower brain that is concerned with the immediate moment. IT does not care about tomorrow.

IT does not care about the future. IT cares about out right now. Let me find pleasure.

Let me find a reward. And the brain was designed that way. And that's Normal. That's not a problem. What we have to do is figure out how do I get into that place of, yep, I see that you want IT, right? I see that you that we have this desire. How do I am feel more comfortable with that is a really like naming and Normalizing is a huge thing for so many people like of course, I have this desire like just that can be so powerful for people.

So the higher brain is the one that you're using to tolerate the urge.

Yeah but notice how you a little disappointed when I said that very we're not to be able to make the urge go away. Why are you disappointed?

Because that would be nice if I didn't like have any urge because then there would be no conflict because I wouldn't be .

thinking about IT. I think what we forget is that 那个 urges are part of the human experience for everything， right? It's not just like the urge to drink. I think we have the urge to eat maybe more than we want to. We have the urge to stand bed when actually we told ourselves that we are going to wake up and exercise in the morning.

Rachel, how do you change your relationship with those urges? Mean you recommend to the people that work with you that you just go cold turkey and you stop drinking, kind of like a lot of us do for dry january.

That's a question that I got a lot from people um in terms of so should I should I just stop right like what's the right answer here? And you know I always really wanted have people back up and sometimes actually make forever off the table because culturally, we have this idea that if you have a problem, the solution is to stop drinking for the rest of your life. And that is so overwhelming for a lot of people.

And so sometimes they just say, listen, like, what if we stop making a decision for what you going to do, you know, starting now until you're eighty? What if we just say, like, what do you want to do today, this week, this month? I mean, that's why I really think IT is very powerful to an experiment with periods of taking a break from drinking.

That was something that really powerful for me. And I think the truth is I don't know I don't know is a very answer. And I also think it's OK if you are answer changes over time. So I think that the other thing is we don't really exam in alcohol or drinking as a relationship that can change over time.

I guess that can change over time. I know my relationship with alcohol is changed over time, but IT strikes me that your approach is so counterintuitive because i've always thought that the answer for me was, mal, you just got ta stop drinking. Period all together, forever. That's IT.

We're done here when I work with people. And taking a break is one of the things that I have people do as an experiment.

You mean like the same way we go thirty days and not drink during bridge.

So a lot of people are familiar with, like driving in ua or sober october, right? Like these ideas that we can spend a month removing alcohol from our lives and practice and saying, no. The peace for I kind of struggle with that is we don't really give people any tools on how to do IT other than just don't drink and maybe avoid temptation or don't put yourself in compromising situations. And taking a break is part of one of the things that that I have people do as an experiment. But it's all about using a set period of time to practice skills, right?

I'm not following how your approach is different. Then say, the times that i've taken a break from drinking and participated in the january.

I have people take a thirty day break from drinking and I believe is a very different and kind of like a dry, genuine or soba october. Because what i'm always telling people is the thirty days I want you to focus on using the tools. Yes, we are using the tools to say no.

But I want you to focus on, like all the techniques to manage my edges. All the techniques. Talk back to my excuses.

You dry january. The point is making IT thirty days and i'm like, listen, we're doing these thirty days. IT is a matter if you drink on day.

Number two, that's a good data, right? That means something didn't work. Let's look at what didn't work. I want you to focus on using the tools.

I'm going to be using these tools, and i'm going to be discovering some work Better than others. I will tell you, that's a huge mindset shift for people. A lot of people like you know, they say all nothing when IT comes to drinking.

I actually think they're all or nothing about a commitment, right? I either was committed and I would did IT write and gold star, or I broke my commitment. And now it's like, okay, why bother?

I made a mistakes and now I get to have as much as I want. Learning how to change means developing a different relationship with commitment. Like, okay, yesterday.

wait that again.

Learning how how to change means developing a different relationship with commitment. You can't have an all or nothing relationship with commitment. I can't be I was good, I was committed and I follow through and I was good or I broke my commitment, I was bad that minds that you're screwed.

So what do you do with that person who says, okay, we're going to do the thirty days of not drinking and i'm going to tried to tools and you get really, really horrible news. Last time I wasn't drinking, I got news that a friend of our study and I was like, fucking fish, i'm having a cocktail. So if I were doing the thirty days with you, what is the data like? What can I learn from that day where I didn't keep my commitment to myself?

Yeah, look back what was happening in the moment, right? Like when you were saying, fuck this shit. What was going on? What were you saying .

fuck this shit to life being hard, commitment being hard. If I go a little bit deeper, IT was being really pissed off and really sad that my friend died and wanting to just like, no IT .

out yeah.

All I wanted to do was fucking have a drink and lay down on the couch and cry about .

my friend yeah I mean, so all the thing that we get to see that like you're the lens of like, oh, IT was sadness IT was grief IT was the belief that like this emotion is too big. It's too much. I can't handle IT I don't want to be with that. I shouldn't have to be which also so Normal .

ah and I was like.

yeah of course your brain went to the thing that is like I know how we get out like I know the shortcut here's the shortcut. Do not have to feel, learn emotions. We have a drink.

That's the lower brain, right? That's the lower brain going. I recognized this battered.

right? And so all the senate like, oh, okay, what? This wasn't me breaking my commitment and being bad. This was me in the moment of having all of this pain and sadness bubbled up, not feeling like I had an alternative for how to manage IT or IT.

How does recognizing that hope you have a stronger muscle when IT comes the commitment? You either good or your bad. You're either have integrity or you don't. You either stick to your promises or your fuck up, and you never will like, you know, like that kind of thinking. And if I take on a thirty day chAllenge and I fuck IT up on day twelve, then I fucked up the whole thing.

right? But remember, what did I say? The the goal of the chAllenge was .

it's not to not drinking for thirty days.

No, I know. Is not. Is not drinking, right? We said not drinking. It's not drinking. The goal was to use the tools, use the tools to.

but I didn't lose the tool, so I actually didn't do the chAllenge. See how quick I am to like, go bad. Male.

okay. So now we don't. So like this happens on day two.

So day three, we can go back to using the tools. yeah. We can.

yeah. I need to make progress so much faster, right when we're not. It's going to let go when I tried and that didn't work.

Now I was bad. Now i'm going to go to shame spiral. And I am either just going like stop trying, right? Because it's like, see, nothing works.

I was going to like, give up. I would either go to the like OK, nothing works. This just like effort. I just had permission to like drink and eat and like do all all the things that I want to do. Or I would go to the place of like, okay, now we're going to make like the super crazy restrictive rule because I was so bad. But like, deep down, I know I can't follow IT at all.

People do that on diet.

Non sta. yeah.

I see so much a direct parallel with eating.

Yeah.

i'm starting to see that if you take on a thirty day chAllenge like this to use the tools and to use the tools to not drink for thirty days as a way to learn and develop the muscle of commitment and understanding yourself Better, if you scare up on day two or twelve or twenty eight and then you base yourself for not having a perfect streak, the likelihood is I would then just bail on the chAllenge altogether. Yeah.

except what if IT wasn't a screw up? Like what if you didn't make a mistake? I mean, like, what if the decision to say yes to the drink wasn't a mistake? IT wasn't a screw up?

Well, how could I not be if I am making a commitment?

Because maybe it's trying to give you insight into something that you are missing, like a skill that you don't have or a response that you don't have to an excuse or something that you you know like you're not aware of like maybe don't have the awareness. So i'm using IT as a boundary.

Rachel. You just keep dropping in the knowledge and I just keep having a pithy y after epiphone y and I know that it's one everybody's going to a relative. So i'm going to share this insight that I just right after he returned to the show break stay with us.

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Welcome back at your friend male. And you and I are here with Rachel heart, and I don't know about you, but I am having a lipb moment after a light pole moment. And just before the break, I had a huge insight. That is another reason why I have so much conflict about alcohol. And the insight is I hate being told what to do.

Oh yeah, me too.

even by myself.

even.

If I said I want to do this thing, i'm not going to do that thing that I said that I would do. I'll show you, is that a Normal thing that you have with people?

Yes, this is a huge thing. I often talk to people when they're really struggling. It's like, okay, so what is the language that you are using to say no to the drink? Now I want to saying that I can't have a drink OK. When you tell yourself you can't have a drink, how does that make you feel pissed off?

yes. Yeah because because here's the thing.

It's not even true that you can't have a drink.

Explain that you're .

like but we said we can well, I mean, weird. You're an adult woman. Of course you can drink. You're choosing to say no. There are such a big difference between like when I told myself I can't have something versus okay, i'm choosing not to and here's why. The more I listening to you.

the more it's really thinking in i'm so fixated on the genetic onic, but this isn't about alcohol because the urge to num or escape or join in or relax, or turn off your workmen or just find pleasure, that's not gonna anywhere. You're always going to have those feelings.

Most people come to me, they just say, like how do I get rid of IT? Like I don't want to have the desire, I don't want to have the urge. I wish I wasn't there.

And I think what we forget is that that urges are part of the human experience for everything, right? It's not just like the urge to drink. I think we have the urge to eat maybe more than we want to.

We have the urge to stay and them and so again, instead of having this idea spent thirty days and just like fight against these excuses, it's like, well, what if we could learn how to talk back to them in a way that's really believable? wow. Of course, the urges here, or even just, I mean, one of my first things really is just naming that you're having an urge.

And when I introduced that to people, I was like, what is this woman talking about? You just want me to say so I am having an urge and I I think it's incredibly powerful and beneficial because all the sudden we're activating our higher brain, all the sudden we're not just on an autopilot. We're nearing what's going on.

Oh, this is an urge. Of course I am having an urge. Is five o clock my brain learn this is what we do. We get a reward at five o'clock of courses here.

Well, when I have that urge, my first reaction is there's something wrong with, you know, there's something wrong with having the urge to have a glass of wine tonight. But you're saying don't focus on the glass wine, just recognize, oh, there's that urge to have one if you're .

trying to say no if you wanted to drink class also like the urges anxiety has just kicked on to because I wish I wasn't there and I wish go away and I think that it's a sign that something is wrong with me or my brain is broken or whatever.

And so good like can we just name IT? Can we Normalize IT? Like, you know, of course, when I watch baseball, i'm having the urge for beer because at some point my brain learn this is what you do when you watch baseball.

What's so great about this is that it's still empowering you to understand the psychological drivers so you understand and know yourself Better. And that supports the work you're gonna do if you are sober or if you go through all of this. And where that leads you is to just a totally different relationship with alcohol that works for you.

You still have to do the deeper work to understand psychological data that is driving you to try to answer the urge with a drink. That's really amazing. We don't just have a urges .

when IT comes to a drink. We have urges around food. We have good urges around spending money. We have urges to procrastinate, like we're always going to have competing desires, right?

We always have this part of us that has the dream and the goal, and this is what I want to do, and this is how I want to spend my time. And we have the part of us is like scrolling through tiktok, right, and looking for that easy way to distract ourselves or feel Better or stay in our comfort zone. And so that's always going on.

And like, I personally think that learning this work around my urges to drink is what kind of took my life to the next level because as I was like, oh, okay, now I can apply the skill to anything that i'm doing. It's not unique to just saying no to a drink. Give something that can .

apply across the board is an essential.

yes. And we don't teach people like this is what so frustrated for me is we're constantly giving people messages, just say no, drink responsibly. Enjoy in moderation.

No one to say when we're getting all these messages about what we should be doing and nobody gives us the how nobody explains how we're supposed to do IT. And so I think what happens is people start to internalize this should just be something I can naturally do. I should instinctual, know how to say no, be responsible, right?

No one to say when and if I can't figure IT out, oh, something must be wrong with me. As opposed to no people give you a bunch of messages. No tools, no techniques, no understanding about the brain. I mean, that just is that really infuriates me.

I can tell you. Let us take, for example, the second i'm done talking to you. I'm gonna leave my podcast studio. I'm onna. Look out of a beautiful sunset and I am going to have an urge to make .

a arra yep.

so when you say named the urge, does IT is just saying, did I just do that? No.

i'm like when it's happening. Oh, and I it's .

happened right now because i'm talking about IT.

but I love the sunset because so because like the number of people that I have coached done, like how I was to sit in my porch anymore and I can enjoy a sunset and it's like sunset, it's more enjoyable before you started drinking, right? We just the brain started to associate, oh, I get a reward when I watch a sunset. So now, when you take the reward away, IT feels like something, thing is missing from the sunset. Nothing's missing from .

the sunset, right? You, right.

except for the drink, right? I making a joke out of this.

but I not really this cavalry about IT. So when I leave here and I have the urge, I I just as some walking down stars, I say, oh, i'm having that urge to make a drink.

Yeah, you can say that to yourself. You can say IT out loud, but that works. The idea is really just acacia wodgate.

What's going on like, oh, this is an E I have an right now, this is desire. Oh, how Normal? Of course it's here, right? This isn't a problem, is about my brain learned. Of course, this is desire. I think that's a very, very powerful thing to start to be able to narrow what your brain is doing because all the set and you're not at the effect of your brain, right? Part of you is watching .

IT that makes sense. But how do you cancel your clients about the fact that drinking is bad for your health? I mean, medically speaking, the newest recommendations that I just saw published academic journals was absolutely no more than two drinks a week if you're gone to drink and IT is poison, I mean, we can agree on that. And yet i'm one of those people that I know it's poison and I still do IT, which of course makes me feel like even more study about myself.

I'm not denying that I can have negative consequences, but what I see happen to people. And I did this with myself as well. You start going down that rabid hole of all the ways that is harming you and all the you know poisonous toxic effects that is having on your body and you're still struggling to say no or you're still drinking more than you want.

And now you're waking up the next day and you're like doubly stupid because now you really should know Better. So not only was IT like a god, why did I have that? Like fourth glass, but and I know all the harm that is doing, and I know how that IT is the army.

There's already so much shame around drinking. People are so hard on themselves IT just becomes like another layer of, see, something really is wrong with me because now I know how bad IT is. I know it's poisoning me as opposed lic. Listen, alcoholic, just it's a fact of being alive on this planet, right? So what if instead of fixing on it's so bad, right?

But it's true, Rachel. So why shouldn't we focus on how harmful IT is for our health?

I think that takes you away from this conversation that I think is more powerful, right? What is IT percent? What is my desire really about? Why is IT hard for me to say no? How do I feel when? No, i'm the odd man out, right? What are those emotions that come up for me that is so much more powerful area, I think, to start to get curious about, rather than all the bad things that is doing well.

I agree with you. And when I gave that example of its dinner time, the sun is setting, i'm going to make a cocktail. The truth is, the desire is to stop working.

The desire is to x hail and stop thinking for a minute. The desire is to reward myself for a job well done and. In naming that, IT also takes my focus off the drink and and IT helps me get present to what I actually want.

You know, it's crazy is that if I start trimming myself by saying, male, it's poison wine class, you know, what happens is that just makes me want the poison in the wine glass even more, and then IT makes me feel even worse. And now my internal conflict is all about how bad IT is. When what your saying is, if you go that out of shaming yourself, you miss out on the way more powerful insight and breakthrough that you can have, which is noticing without judged, oh, I have the urge to drink right now.

What is that about the workdays over? Oh, I want to turn off my brain. That makes sense. So what do I need to do right now to take care of myself? What immediately came to mind .

is I need a hug ah. Isn't that harder to ask for sometimes in a drink .

what you can order one from a waiter? It's true and I can make myself a drink so I don't have to ask for anything, right? Yeah if I go to the fourteen year old me, that red solo cup represented a hug and being welcomed into the group here. And so I can see what you're saying to name when you feel that urge that is deeper than the food or the drink or the pero genes are about to buy. And so of course, you would want the thing and of course not giving yourself the genes or the ice cream sunday or the my tie feels like you're punishing yourself.

Yeah I I think a big thing is just i'm watching IT pass. So that's a huge thing that a lot of people struggle with. It's like, listen, if I don't say yes, it's going to be nagging me all night long.

Can I confess? Something to.

of course.

is IT Normal for for someone to be worried that you're about to tell me not to have a .

drink tonight.

that I am about to tell you, yes, that you're about to coach me through this process of noticing the urge, letting IT rise and fall. And then at the end of this, i'm now gonna more, more conflict. And and then you want to know how, how fucked up I am, then i'm gonna feel like this is now all evidence that I have an even bigger problem. That's how much of a shame cycle I mean.

around this. Yes, this is very Normal. I'm gonna tell you anything to do. I may think that's actually a huge piece of of my approach is that I don't know it's best for you.

I'm not gonna tell you what to do because you're just gonna then looking to me or looking for someone outside of you to tell you what's right. I think you have wisdom and information inside of you and that's not like A A wink wink so you shouldn't drink. I really do think that we have this ability to know what what feels good for us and what feels like too much, but we can access that. If it's constantly in this place of I shouldn't be wanting this or I shouldn't even have this desire.

I can totally see how that's true, at least IT is for me.

right? Like I didn't think more is Better just with a drink. I thought I was Better with food.

I thought I was Better with stuff. I thought I was Better with success. I thought I was Better with money. I thought was Better with prays. Like that was just kind of the overarching principle of how I was Operating and IT wasn't just showing up for me in one place and that I think that created a lot of freedom for me because I walked around for a long handing like I don't know. I've got like eight different problems, like or not or maybe I I have one thing that i'm working on, which is how to understand, like identify how i'm feeling and what I need and how to be OK with an unmet desire and how to fulfill IT elsewhere.

You're exactly right. How did you figure this out? Like was there a particular moment?

Like did you have like a massive bender? And then you're like a counter again. Then you like reverse engineer this. You go to school. How did you figure this out?

I spent my twenty is going like back and fourth between i'm drinking, i'm not drinking, i'm drinking, i'm not drinking but the not drinking was always, you were bad. You should be ashamed of yourself. Now it's time to punish yourself.

Where is gonna focus on saying no? And so I would say no and say no and he likes something was wrong with me and I was missing out and I was very healthy but wasn't enjoying myself as much. And then eventually I would give in and go pick up right back where I left off. I'm sure that's .

everyone feels about drinking and being in this back. And fourth, amon, i'm off. I'm drinking. I'm not drinking. I'm bad. I'm good. I mean, that's exactly right now, which is why I wanted talk to you and learn more about the process that you used with people.

I was in this process in this cycle for so long, and I had some awareness that IT was bigger than the drink. I felt like I wasn't able to access a part of myself without the drink. I remember believing that like the fun Rachel, the real Rachel, like SHE, comes out with a drink. And again, there was a part of me that was like, I don't think I always needed that right.

It's so reliable. I feel like they're relaxed. I'm off the clock.

Male comes out with a drink. The male is not racing through a day. Got a million things.

I need to do tons of people. I need to call people that are, were relying on me. I pour that drink and am on vacation. I'm off the clock. It's the male that can sit down, put your feet up, stop thinking and just take a breath and look at the sunset for a minute.

We have such a limited conversation, how we talk about kind of like, do I have a problem or do I have a problem, right? And I an alcoholic and my Normal drinker. We're very black and White. And I think there are a lot of people that feel like they're in this kind of in between and being in that in between can feel incredibly frustrating. And it's like nobody understands my situation or what's going on for me.

So all of this makes so much. And now, of course, leaning in and going, I wanted learn more about the actual process. So when someone comes to actually and they say, can you help me figure out what a Normal relationship with alcohol would look like for me or even broadening IT out for those of you that aren't like dealing with this with alcohol, anything that you're struggling with a Normal relationship would look like for you with shopping, spending money, facing video games, porn, the urge to avoid things over eating, right? To what is the process and how do you start IT for yourself?

Yeah, I think that one of the most important things to do is really first understand your mindset. And when I say mindset, I mean, when you think about what are my reasons for drinking and what, what do I make IT mean that I struggle to say now, right? What do I make IT mean when I strugling to follow through on my commitment? If you think about being told that you couldn't drink again, what about that would be upsetting for you? Because when you started asking these questions is gonna reveal some of your thoughts about yourself, your ability to change your urges, alcohol, all of that.

We were at up a friend's house the other night, and they opened up one of those super expensive french bottles of wine. We have to, like, push the great dust off of IT. And i'm like you, i'm not going to miss out on that.

I had a drink that night book the second they pulled that out. It's like formal. This is going be expensive.

And this should the big question that you asked at the end, which is, what does what was the big question? Because I made my haco. Oh god.

sorry. Now we're telling you, you can't drink for the rest of your life.

I would feel like i'd never have fun again. Yeah, like i'd miss out on all the celebrations.

I am, I was like, i'm sorry how we used to watch march madness. Like, what? And I ever gonna sex again, I don't understand.

And like, why like this? so? So are you, kid? I was so I ever gona go to a weddings.

Should I just not go to weddings anymore? I'm not going to have sex. We're not going to enjoy sports like I guess i'm never going to dance in public.

They were just like so many things like what you've got to be killing me like you're literally talking about a miserable life. So yeah, no, thank you. I'll pass.

So what do you do if that's everything that you think when somebody fills all that out and their like, okay, i'm never gone to sex, i'm not going to dancing public, I can't go to a sports game, my life will will be no fun all my friends who drink won't ever invite me out. I'm an indoor awkward moment after awkward moment where everybody else, or just a drink and am I could I have a salter please? Can I the mock tail menu and I don't want to miss out on all the fun and I don't want to do like when you write out your excuses that almost makes you feel like you would retreat tod, binge drinking because it's like.

oh, where we have nothing to look forward to, right? yes. So one of the things I talk about in all the situations that I listed, like the worst thing is going to happen is a feeling.

That's true.

but I don't think we understand that. That way you like, no, the worst thing is going to happen is my life is going to be over. Yes, start to be like, okay.

So what is that feeling that comes up when I get on the dance floor, right, totally sober? What is that feeling that i'm having when i'm sitting in the stands watching baseball and everybody has a beer? And I don't right. Like what is that feeling like to start to identify the real issue here is not the the real issue is this feeling oh god, if this comes up, then there's nothing to do, right? What you're .

doing is you're just teaching people how to handle the feelings become yeah I mean.

IT starts even just with like identifying what the feeling is because that's a huge piece that I work on with people like i'm fine. I'm like i'm fine if fans not a feeling like Harry actually feeling so again, much like your urges the ability to just name and notice and also when that make IT a problem.

can you give us an example of what that sounds like when you notice the urge and name IT and not make IT wrong?

Like I feel disappointed right now, how human of me. That's okay. We're supose to feel disappointed.

Sometimes I can feel disappointed now because i'm not having the drink, or I can feel disappointed later because I didn't follow through on my commitment. But disappointments come in either way. So which one am I gonna choose?

Oh my god, I just got something. I just got something really powerful. Holy shit, do you wanted know why I always lose the battle with myself when I start a sunday night, I say, you know, i'm not going to drink this week.

I'll just wait until next weekend. And then monday rules. Around six o'clock, I go downstairs. It's the sunset.

I feel the desire to poor gene tonic, because this is my boundary between work, and I understand what IT is when I start to get in conflict with myself. Rachel, well, you said you work and have a drink, but I feel like having a drink. What's wrong with having a drink? Well, you said you wouldn't.

That's a lot. I have a drink to shut that conflict down. Yeah, i'm not having a drink because i'm addicted to alcohol.

I'm having a drink because I can't tolerate being in conflict with those two competing part of me. Holy shit, that's why the drink habit always wins because IT shuts IT down. It's really like even .

less about alcohol, right? IT. Just like, how am I making IT OK? And Normalizing conflict, like internal conflict is okay.

Yeah, that's pretty cool. I think I ve going to try thirty days, not today, but now I wanted I might really interested in this because I said I tired of the conflict yeah within me and I think there's peace that successful in this. And IT is very freeing for somebody like me.

And I think for a large number of you listening to go, wait a minute, I don't have to choose between I drink all the time and I don't drink at all. I can end the internal conflict that I feel, and I can learn more about urges and desires and tolerating things, and Operate from my higher brain and satellite. My lower brain control me. And I can get myself out of the cycle of shame and management and conflict in all this shit by simply trying what you're saying for thirty days of using these tools and naming the desire and tolerating the desire and watching your excuses and going a layer deeper.

I had a client once say, when I was working with her on her and compelling reasons, I had her say, I want to be the captain of my own soul. And I was like, yeah, I love the captain .

of the soul because I am somebody who is uber intentional and uber in control. And you've done so much work on myself. The one area where I have this friction between old and new is this conflict.

I feel around whether or not i'm going to have a cocktail and you have been so proudly helpful because I have realized I have a major issue with a boundary between work and relaxing and turning my brain off and the desire to join in and belong with others, and they're all tied up with alcohol. For some dm reason, i've been focused on the alcohol, not the much richer and deeper opportunity of knowing myself. So thank you.

You welcome.

Thanks for having me, of course, and thank you for being here. Thank you so much. I could feel your arms around me as we were having this conversation, and now I want to put my arms around you. I want to make sure to tell you that I love you, and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a Better life for yourself. However, you define whatever that means for you and what that means for me is I am going to try this thirty day thing so thank you for being here and helping me find the courage to take a look at this because it's a hell of A A lot easier to face your stuff and change together. All right, i'll talk to in a few days.

O okay, we into this. Oh, wow, wow. This is like tool city, man, tool city.

okay. Oh, should um to chase my kids always call while we're having a podcast goodbye. Okay, I mom is how to talk about drink? That's a boundary. Okay, i've still on the clock.

Excuse me, I is.

So was that straight board and thing that you just.

Oh, and one more thing I know, this is not a blue per. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers right? And what I need to read you.

This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a license therapies, and this pocket is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist or other qualified professional. Got IT good. I'll see in the next episode .

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