All About Psychics
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The use of psychics in criminal investigations. While I reported on the case of Dia Abrams, I found myself trying to make sense of whether psychics are actually utilized in investigations, and if so, whether they are actually helpful. I know this part of the story was a sticking point for a lot of you, and it's something I've been doing more digging on since we released our last episode.

You might remember that Keith Harper, Dia's boyfriend, enlisted the help of an organization called Find Me to help him locate Dia. Find Me was founded by ex-DEA agent Kelly Snyder and relies on information from psychics to find missing people. Harper first learned about Find Me and Kelly Snyder because of another missing persons case. Back in 2012,

a 13-year-old named Dylan Redwine, disappeared while he was visiting his dad, who lived in Colorado. My producer Jacob spoke with Kelly and Harper about the Dylan Redwine case while they searched for deer at Lake Hemet. He saw the case that we worked and we found the guy, or found the kid, and the psychics actually told us who killed him. What was the outcome there? Was there an arrest made or anything? Oh yeah, it was the father who killed him.

It was a big divorce, and the kid hated the father, and the court forced him to go there on a visitation. And the end result was he killed him. How did you find the general area? A psychics told us where to go. We went there, and literally the guy who was in charge of the investigation wanted us to go to the 12,000-foot level and work our way down, which we did, but no one indicated...

that the kid was up that high and then went down to where our psychic said that we may find him and then the team went in and Kiki was the name of the dog that found him found him within about 20 minutes after going into the woods and uh 20 minutes so yes according to Kelly the psychic was the one to point them in the right direction and then the search dog did the rest of the work

The whole thing turned into a bit of a circus, with a ton of press coverage and at least a few articles, which did mention that investigators followed tips from psychics and mediums. Mark, Dylan's father, was eventually arrested, and in 2021, he was found guilty of murdering Dylan and sentenced to 48 years in prison.

Reading about the case made me understand the appeal of how Kelly works. And Harper clearly felt the same way. Nobody had a clue where he was. Searches were done. He just like he disappeared into thin air. And then Kelly comes in and within days solves the damn case. Well, I'll take credit for it, but it's actually the dogs and the psychics. The $45 million reward was, you know, worth it.

I got $45 to solve it today. Quick disclaimer here. We couldn't corroborate if Kelly's psychics actually contributed to Dylan's case. One news article did mention cops received tips from psychics, but only said that, quote, as a matter of due diligence, law enforcement had to follow up on many of them.

And then another local news story said that Dylan was found thanks to hours of police manpower, not some psychic tip-off. But there is a testimonial on the Find Me website from a sergeant investigator on the case. He thanked Find Me for their help with searches and wrote, We are forever in their debt. All of this made me more curious about how psychics work with law enforcement and whether their work has any merit.

So in this episode, I'm asking a psychic and a police psychologist about just that. I'm Lucy Sherriff, and this is Where's Dia? Today's episode, all about psychics.

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We're sitting in a 1988 BMW 325 IS. And describe the way in which it's been modified. It has no interior. That's where it begins. Not even a steering wheel. Yeah, right now there's no steering wheel. Although I can fix that in a second. And what's the appeal of a late 80s BMW 325?

Well, it's almost like the perfection of a recipe that BMW began in the 60s, which is to take, you know, a really beautifully made inline six engine, rear wheel drive and just like an incredibly balanced and fun to drive car. Yeah. Yeah. We give a little sneak peek.

I need to connect the battery. The battery is disconnected. Wait, the battery is in the back of it. The battery is actually under the rear seat. Oh, I see. So it has an absolutely perfect balance between front and rear way. Exactly, yeah. So yes, turn it on. Let's hear it. Oh, yes! Ha ha ha!

And this is you. This is your first BMW. My second. Oh, no, Lucas, you can't say that. What was your second? What was your first? It was a 1989 535i. Oh, yes. But you owned that with a bunch of other people. Yeah, yeah. This is my first, my true, my first, you know, sole BMW. Solely owned. Solely owned BMW. Okay. Wonderful. Wonderful.

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We're going to hear from a police psychologist in a bit.

But let's start with the psychic. He actually worked on Dia's case. Psychics look like everyday people. I mean, people are usually shocked when they find out what I do. This is Dave Campbell. He's based in Arizona. And the first thing I learned while talking with him is that in addition to being a psychic, he has a few other skills too.

I'm also a hypnotherapist. I talk to people when they sleep. I talk to dead people. Wow. I do all kinds of fun stuff. And then I'm also an astrologer. And I also wrote the book called Forensic Astrology, which is solving crimes using astrology, which works amazingly.

and synchronistically. And people have no clue what that is either. They think it's just sun sign astrology. And I'm saying, oh, the Pisces did it. No, that's not it. But we like to blame Pisces for everything anyway. I'm a Pisces moon, so I can half take offense to that. Dave has been working with FIME for years. And like I said before, contributed to Dia's case. So I wanted to hear about his experience and process.

I would love to hear how you got involved with Kelly Snyder, like how you met him, because the funny thing about him, it's like he is like the most unlikely person that would be working with psychics. Like he's gruff. He's like, like just meat and potatoes guy. It's like, well, who are you? Yes. And a retired DEA agent. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, not your typical. So it's really synchronistic too, because during my schooling with astrology, my teacher really always liked to do mystery charts and have us solve crimes or figure out who murdered who, or where's this person at? Are they alive or dead? And so to bring in district attorneys...

that were worked on in case and give us a bunch of cases just with their charts and we would amaze them with what we could come up with and so i started thinking you know this really works and um so i just went further and further and then did it on my own and i thought how can i get in touch with and just put it out there in the universe and then um so one of my other friends said that she was taking the same astrology class and she just found this retired dea agent um

who was helping find missing children and would I want to join with her because she knew I was interested and I'm like oh yeah so it kind of found me um I put it out there and it found me synchronistically and um that was like 2000 or 2001. Wow. I've been with Kelly ever since so it's been a long time and I've worked on I don't even know how many cases. And how does it work does he put out a call and then you guys kind of decide whether you want to help?

Yeah, we each case, he sends it to all of us and we all just return it in what we get within a week. I try to do all of them as much as I can. Like sometimes I usually will meditate on it first. I'll read the story like what we do know. We know very little. We usually just get like they were missing on this day. They were last seen. And what's the circumstances? What happened? So.

I usually will get their birth date. I'll do their chart, the day they were missing, put it all together, see what I can see. I start pulling in the information even then, because I can say, "Oh, it looks like this is very bad." I can usually even then determine whether they're dead or not. Then I do a meditation. I ask them if they're in spirit, if they want to come and connect with me. Sometimes they will and sometimes they will not, and sometimes they refuse.

which is because sometimes they don't want to be found right at the moment. So I do it day by day so I can keep getting more information. And then I'll do like a tarot reading on it. And then I'll just do another psychic, you know, try to get any information I can get. And then finally look at the charts. And then usually I kind of all kind of a puzzle starts to come together. I never get paid to do any of the find me stuff and I don't want to.

You know, it's just what I do back for society. And any police work I've ever done, when they come to me, I've had independent police departments come to me too. I never charge. So you worked on Dia's case? Yes. I don't want to talk too much in detail about it, but I will say, you know, general things. I have a really reluctance to talk about personal cases because if there's still any open-ended to it or it's not solved and put to bed in prison time,

I've been stalked and almost killed before, so I don't want that to happen. Not my favorite thing to do. So I'm really reluctant to say specifics on any case, unless I know it can't come back. But I did work on it.

Can you remember what, I mean, the only word I can think of is medium, what mediums you used to work on Dia's case? Were you using cards? Were you using astrology? I almost always use astrology, almost every case. And then I don't always use tarot, but sometimes I do if I need more information or want more, or if I just get pulled to it. I always meditate. I always get psychic stuff as well.

And it usually even starts with the charts. And usually...

If the, it even is better, which I keep trying to tell people, if they would give me the birth time of the person, it's like nine day difference. It's like fuzzy, hazy information versus sharp, clear, perceptive. Like I know exactly this. Did you get her time at birth? No, there's no time of birth. Why don't I try and find it? That would be awesome. I bet I can find it. Yeah. Okay. That would be very helpful.

So yeah, like I say, I usually work on a case for usually about a week. And then once I've turned it in, I kind of let everything go. I've had to learn to do that. Otherwise, I would be bonkers. And I try to let everything go in that even if it's not solved or whatever, I just, you can't hang on to it unless it comes up again. And if he asks me, then I revisit it. Going back to the astrology, I'm really fascinated how you use it to locate somebody or to find out what happened. Yeah.

Okay. So there's two different methods.

You can do profiling with it. I did a whole case study of serial killer sharks, which was really crazy and fascinating to see if there was patterns, to see if I could tell why they did what they did. And there's similar patterns in almost all of them. Are they Pisces? Is that why you made the Pisces? No, no, no. I was just kidding. So profiling is one thing. And then also the transits, the time of the planets of like somebody gets killed.

The day and time of that killing is a chart itself. And so I overlay it with the chart of the natal chart and see what was happening. She was triggering. If there was potential for, you know, if it shows murder, it should, it'll be in the chart. Then if they give me suspects or if I can find, you know, suspects, the...

I can do their natal chart and the transits for that day. Does it look like they were triggered to violence? If not, they probably didn't do it. But I also see if there was a violent combination between the two people. So I'm looking at a lot of different things, a lot of different charts together. And what do you say to people who are skeptical about all of this? Because obviously there's a lot of non-believers out there. Do you kind of just shrug them off or...?

I don't pay attention anymore. I don't really care. I mean, I've proved myself so many times and I think being scientifically tested really gave me confidence to like, you know, like I don't need to prove myself anymore. If you want to prove it to yourself, then come to get a reading.

I actually have quite a few friends that are cops. So they come to me for readings and I've had detectives come for readings. I've had, you know, so they know I can do what I do. They come to my medium night and we'll get, you know, they'll bring their families. So, you know, I'm sure they don't talk about it too much, but it is really frustrating because some police departments refuse our answers, even if we gave it to them and said, this is where the body is or who did it.

they won't take it. And I'm like, that's just crazy to me. Why do you think there's this reluctance to acknowledge the usefulness of psychics? I think that they, partly it's ego, like that they want to be the ones responsible, which is okay. And I think that the police do, they do fine. They do the actual work.

um we're just a tool that they could use a tool and that's it um they still have to do all the police work and their you know due diligence and go be the ground um but i do think they should use this a lot more than they do and i would rather they do it sooner than later because usually when later on a missing person means they're already passed 90 of the time in my case so

I would rather find them while they're still alive and could be saved rather than when they've gone cold and can't figure it out and it's too late. I desperately want to believe Dave. But there's another side of me that still has questions. And until I can find a cop who will openly say, yes, we've used psychics to help us solve a murder or find a missing person, I think those questions will always remain. After the break...

I speak with a researcher who conducted studies with psychics while she was at the Los Angeles Police Department. So what we found with the psychics did come up with some very interesting clues or information. We'll be right back. The most innovative companies are going further with T-Mobile for Business.

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Learn more about taking your business further by visiting teammobile.com slash now. This is Malcolm Gladwell from Revisionist History. So we are, we're sitting in what?

We're sitting in a 1988 BMW 325 IS. And describe the way in which it's been modified. It has no interior. That's where it begins. Not even a steering wheel. Yeah, right now there's no steering wheel. Although I can fix that in a second. And what's the appeal of a late 80s BMW 325?

Well, it's almost like the perfection of a recipe that BMW began in the 60s, which is to take, you know, a really beautifully made inline six engine, rear wheel drive and just like an incredibly balanced and fun to drive car. Yeah. Yeah. We give a little sneak peek.

I need to connect the battery. The battery is disconnected. Wait, the battery is in the back of it. The battery is actually under the rear seat. Oh, I see. So it has an absolutely perfect balance between front and rear way. Exactly, yeah. So yes, turn it on. Let's hear it. Oh, yes! Ha ha ha!

And this is you. This is your first BMW. My second. Oh, no, Lucas, you can't say that. What was your second? What was your first? It was a 1989 535i. Oh, yes. But you owned that with a bunch of other people. Yeah, yeah. This is my first, my true, my first, you know, sole BMW. Solely owned. Solely owned BMW. Okay. Wonderful. Thank you.

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It's hard to say how seriously law enforcement listens to psychics like Dave. A lot of departments categorically say they don't use them. At least, that's what I've read. The research on psychics and crime solving is also pretty sparse. But one study caught my eye, an older one, from 1979. It's a study that's been done in the United States

There was a collaboration between the Los Angeles Police Department and an associate professor at Los Angeles City College. You know, desperate families will do anything. People with cancer will go to Mexico and eat grapefruit or whatever it is. I mean, people will try anything. And the police departments won't stop people from doing what they think they need to do as long as it doesn't interfere with

the police work or the investigation to get the job done. This is Dr. Susan Sachs-Clefford. I'm a licensed psychologist and a board certified in police and public safety. And I spent 14 years with LAPD in the beginning of my career. And then for many years, I've had a private consulting business, consulting with law enforcement and public safety agencies, mostly on assessment.

In the 70s, Susan was a staff psychologist with the LAPD, eager to put her knowledge of research design and evaluation to use, which is how she became involved in this study of psychics. At that time, a group of psychics approached LAPD

And they had some credentials on them. I don't recall their association. And we decided to do a well-designed study on actual cases to see if they could provide information that would lead to the solution of crimes. LAPD was completely open to it and agreed.

We sat down with the representatives of the parapsychologists and designed a formal study. What do you think it was about the environment that made it right for this study? Do you think it was the fact that it was LA? Was it the 70s? You said the LAPD were open to it, which now feels surprising.

Well, I think it would not be surprising. And I think that people have images of rigid approaches and rigid mindsets. But truthfully, if anything would work, it would be looked at. And I was new and young and had my credentials. And I don't remember if I brought it forward or if they had brought it to me, but saying, well, let's...

We're not going to shut down all these people that come forward, but we also can't invest a lot of time because we're really trying to get something done to solve these crimes. So let's take a look at it. Who knows? And I remember being very, very happy to be able to do an actual research design, and off we went.

So can you explain the setup of the study and how did you decide what you were going to ask? The study was actually very interesting because, as I said, the parapsychologists had a lot of input.

What we decided was to take a number of cases. I don't remember if it was 10 or a dozen, but we took cases that actually had been solved, but were not published. So the information wasn't out there, but cases that had been solved. The parapsychologist suggested that we take evidence from those cases, put them in sealed envelopes,

have the psychics put their hands above the envelopes, not touch the envelopes, and come up with details of the crime and see if any of those details match the actual crime. And then we went to wherever they wanted to meet, and mostly it was the homes of the psychics, a very diverse group of people. I mean, really some...

People that would want to make you smile, tinfoil on their head and whatever. And others who were in business attire, all kinds of people. And we did that. We gathered all the information that they had to say. And then we looked at actual statistics. What were the...

elements of the crime. So what were, can you kind of give me the top line of the results and whether there was anything in there? So what we found with the psychics did come up with some very interesting clues or information. For example, one said that he or she, I don't remember which, saw a very brightly painted colorful door.

Well, it turns out that the victim did, in fact, live behind a brightly painted, I think it was a green door. And that was like, ooh, but it didn't lead to anything. It didn't lead to further ability to research or to find anything. Another one had said that he sees the victim has been in a bar within the last week.

That was true, but again, it didn't lead to a solution. And yet a third said that he saw a church and the victim had been a caretaker in a church. Those were the three sort of clues that we got that were somewhat related to the crimes, but not enough information to take another step. So just a quick recap here. Even though the psychics in their study got certain details right,

They didn't end up providing any information that would help police departments solve the cases. The paper wraps up with this. We are forced to conclude, based on our results, that the usefulness of psychics as an aid in criminal investigation has not been validated. Later on, Susan helped out with another study to see if the results would be replicated.

This time, the researchers added two control groups, college students and homicide detectives. And then my job was to go to the homicide investigators, which was quite interesting. These were the old homicide investigator teams that you would envision, you know, crusty old guys with a cigar investigating.

and tons and tons of experience with homicides. But they were also very kind and cooperative and did exactly what we told them to do. But can you imagine telling an experienced homicide investigator, oh, you can't look in the bag and you can't touch the bag. Just float your hand above us and tell us about the crime. So I had some eye rolls and, you know, I think they put up with me because I was...

you know, bright-eyed and excited in 23. That's hilarious. It really was. Most of my career was like that. After the researchers surveyed all three groups, they looked to see how many of the details each group got right about the cases. The study seemed to confirm the results of the first. Even though each group got some details right, none of them came up with information that would help actually solve a case.

And not only did the psychics fail to come up with useful information, the homicide detectives got just about as many details right as they did. And the reason was they just went into their experience and pulled out the most common threads or most common patterns.

issues that they would find in all of their experience. Again, it would not have led particularly to a solution of a crime, but it might have narrowed down their search a little bit. Now, these studies were both fairly small. The authors recommended further research into this area, though, like I said, I couldn't find much. I asked Susan about this.

I think, first of all, it's not front and center of what most agencies do. And I think it was unique at that time because there was a cooperation of everybody within the department. And they really went out on a limb. I'm not sure that they expected any results, but they gave it an honest look and put resources into it.

I don't know why. I think maybe that study was sort of the end. Agencies looked at that and said, well, okay. I did find, by the way, a five-page article

a journal article. It appeared on the US Department of Justice and it was about the usefulness of psychics in police investigations. The annotation is, "Their usefulness is controversial, but psychics have long been and will undoubtedly continue to be involved in unsolved criminal investigations." That was in 1993. I don't know if you ever saw that.

I didn't, but that does make sense. Yeah, so that kind of really piqued my interest and...

Yeah, I was so desperate to see if there was anything else. So it feels like there's sort of like rumours floating around that they have been used, but it feels like no one's quite willing to come and say on the record, you know, we've used them and successfully so. And I kind of wonder if there's a stigma around it.

I think that if it was terribly useful, it would be a wonderful tool. I just have never heard that. Certainly there are people who are intuitive, very intelligent, and may approach things in a different way. We see on television all kinds of people

superhero types who think outside the box and see things differently. And that's all good. But the psychic ability, and again, they put their hands above that envelope. I don't know that it would have been any different had they opened the envelope. I mean, I don't think it would have added anything really to

But this has been around for centuries, for centuries and centuries, you know, back from ancient Rome to the oracles. It's always been around. People are always wanting and hoping. And I imagine it will be around for centuries to come. I just don't know of any other time.

well-designed research studies with a control group that I have seen that would provide anything solid. It's a shame there hasn't been more research into using psychics to help law enforcement. Or, if they already are working together, that law enforcement isn't more open about it. Surely finding missing people is the priority, right? Rather than keeping up appearances?

I couldn't help thinking back to what Kelly Snyder said about Riverside's reluctance to use his information to find Dia. What if the cops had searched Lake Hemet sooner, like Kelly was urging them to? What if they'd searched that strange Arizona coordinate that wasn't too far from Harper's Route to New Mexico? By the way, I found Dia's birth time, and I've passed it on to Dave Campbell so he can look into her case again with this new detail. Maybe I believe in it all, maybe I don't.

but I'm going to be very intrigued to see what he comes up with. Where's Deer is written and hosted by me, Lucy Sheriff. Our producer is Daphne Chen. Editing by Karen Shikurji. Fact-checking by Lauren Vespoli. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Original score by Echo Shores. Mastering by Jacob Gorski. Where's Deer is a co-production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia.

You can listen to all of Where's Deer right now ad-free by becoming a Pushkin Plus subscriber. Find Pushkin Plus on the Apple show page for Where's Deer or at pushkin.fm slash plus. The holiday season is back, which means it's a time for giving. Subaru and its retailers believe in giving back to those who need it most.

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