Introducing Nobody Should Believe Me: The Advocate
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Pushkin.

Hello, Where's Dia listeners. This is Andrea Dunlop. I am the host and creator of Nobody Should Believe Me, the hit true crime podcast about Munchausen by proxy, the New York Times praised for its compassionate, clear-eyed reporting on one of the most disturbing forms of abuse. My friends over at Pushkin Industries invited me to pop on here and share the first episode of my brand new season, our sixth, as they thought it would really be up your alley.

In season six, we investigate the haunting story of Lisa McDaniel, a mother who built a public image as a rare disease advocate, all while hiding her dark past of abuse and lies. If you were drawn to Where's Dia for its exploration of family secrets, power, and the cost of silence, I think you'll find this story just as gripping.

Today, we are sharing episode one, and you can follow along for the rest of the season wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you find you just can't wait, you can binge all eight episodes right now by subscribing on Apple or Patreon. Thank you so much for listening. Now, here's episode one of season six of Nobody Should Believe Me.

Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show, we discuss child abuse, and this content may be difficult for some listeners. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to MunchausenSupport.com to connect with professionals who can help. Well, here we are. Here we are. It's crazy. It's like, this feels so surreal. Where would you like to begin? I don't know. I don't know. Where do you begin? I don't know.

Meet my friend, Michelle. Michelle lives in a small town in Georgia with her husband where she works as a hairdresser. But despite her baby face and ever-changing rainbow hair, Michelle has the kind of wisdom that can come from surviving a series of unimaginable horrors. Why? Why would you do something I can't overcome? Because you can. Because, Mama, please listen. Please listen. You're asking me to listen to you. Please listen to me.

For most of her life, Michelle has been living under the weight of her family's terrible secrets. A story that only a small group of confidants and licensed professionals have known about.

The long and complicated saga of her mother, Lisa McDaniel, is one Michelle and I have been talking about covering on this podcast for years. Please listen to me. Okay, I will, but here's what I want to say first. Munchausen by proxy is something that even Bjorker says you cannot recover from. And she doesn't even agree with that anymore, Mama. She doesn't even agree.

agree with that anymore. You're wrong. We can leave B Yorker out of this. That's what I'm saying. Y'all didn't hear me when I said it the first time, but I'm serious. I have talked to everybody and B Yorker and I literally told her at one point that I didn't want to speak to her anymore because I needed distance from her because I didn't know how you felt about her. You have talked about her for years and I tried to understand your point of view going into this whole thing.

I am here in your living room because I have empathy for you and I believe that there is good in you. And I love you. I would not be sitting here right now if I didn't feel that way. Coming forward wasn't an easy choice for Michelle. There has been a heavy silence over the horrifying events that have reverberated throughout generations of her family. But that silence ends today. Where do you begin? Um, geez.

This season on Nobody Should Believe Me, we're covering the complicated story of Lisa McDaniel, her husband, Kerry, and their three children, Michelle, Angeline, and Colin, and attempting to unravel what happened. Whether this is a story of a medical mystery or a different sort of mystery altogether. People believe their eyes. That's something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something.

If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me. I got home last night and Brent was like, so how are you feeling? And I was like, I'm so nervous. Yeah, I think it's normal to be nervous. Michelle and I first met when we were part of the pilot support group for Munchausen Support, the nonprofit organization that I founded in 2021.

These days, my mentor Bea Yorker, a professor emerita and longtime psychiatric nurse, is the sitting president. I still serve on the board, and Michelle is getting involved in the work as well. Bea has been devoted to this cause for decades, and she's the one who brought Michelle and I together. Michelle and Bea reconnected many years after the events that first brought Bea into the McDaniels' lives. You and I talked a little bit about...

things when I first contacted you. And that was like, what, 2019, I believe, after we found the records. - Yes, that's how I first even learned that your sister was still alive, that you were okay. And I gave the nurse, the NICU nurse, my email information and I said, "I would love to hear from both of the girls."

What do you hope for with Michelle coming forward with her story publicly, really for the first time? What do you hope that that can accomplish? What I hope is that when the general public and when child abuse professionals hear from somebody's lived experience, that it is so much more impactful than reading data in a book. So I want you to be able to share your emotional reactions

to your journey of coming to this place where now, you know, you're, oh my gosh, you're just blossoming and you're resilient and you're amazing. And it's not because you had a safe childhood. You proud of Michelle? Oh my gosh. I'm so proud. So proud.

Most of what can readily be found online about Michelle's mom and the woman at the center of this season, Lisa McDaniel, relates to her work as the director of patient advocacy for a nonprofit called the Guthrie Jackson Foundation. How are y'all doing? Good.

Did y'all enjoy our breakout sessions today? I encourage you to call up your primary care physician. Use your family and friends who may work at medical offices. Ask for referrals. Get out there, knock on doors, and don't give up until you get someone who will let you in their office to tell them more about NMO.

You do not have to be a public speaker. You just have to be able to talk to your doctor, talk to their staff, and just share your story. Because as Christine just told you, she has a story. But guess what? Each one of us in this room have our own story. That's Lisa McDaniel presenting at the Guthrie Jackson Foundation's NMO Patient Day. NMO, or neuromyelitis optica, is a rare autoimmune disease.

Lisa is in her mid-50s with a youthful round face and the red hair that she passed along to her three children. You'd never know from her carefully crafted public image that Lisa has done jail time for child abuse. Rather, her image centers on her advocacy around NMO and her work at the foundation. Work which, as it says in her bio, was informed by her own experiences as a caregiver for her son.

My son Colin was five years old when he had his first symptom of vision loss in 2007. We're gonna go in here and get some stuff we talked about done, okay? And we're gonna take pictures and see how the blood works in your body. Okay?

Colin's always been healthy, never had problems. He just lost his vision completely in about two days. We ended up coming to Birmingham, Alabama to the Center for Pediatric Onset Demyelinating Diseases and saw Dr. Jane Ness there. She told us neuromyelitis optica and we had never heard of it. She explained to us that it was used to be thought it was a severe form of multiple sclerosis that

It's a very difficult disease and proceeded to tell us that there could be times where Colin could be paralyzed in the future, he could lose his vision again, and just varying degrees of disability that he could have.

This video begins with a shot of Lisa and her husband, Kerry, walking their son, Colin, down a hospital hallway in a wheelchair, then cuts to a professionally shot interview of Lisa in a leopard print blazer and a statement necklace. The other voice you hear in this clip is Dr. Jane Ness, the pediatric neurologist who diagnosed Lisa's son, Colin, with NMO.

The picture Lisa presents online is of a gentle, soft-spoken Southern mom whose mighty struggles as the mother of a sick child led to her career as a dedicated advocate for other families. But nothing about Lisa is what it seems. Lisa McDaniel has worked very hard to bury her past. But that's the thing about the truth. You can spin it, you can push it down, but it has a way of catching up to you. A life built on lies just isn't very durable.

Because sooner or later, someone might come along and put all the pieces together. I don't know how this is going to land. And I know you're probably not going to understand it. I've been in some support groups for probably two or three years. And a really close friend of mine runs a podcast. And she asked me to go on her podcast and kind of talk about everything that we grew up with. And I agreed to do it.

I hope that it will be an opportunity to kind of air some things out and heal from a lot of things that I still don't have answers to. I know there's been some things, and it's not all old stuff for me, but I just wanted to let you know before any of it came out or happened, because I do love you and I do have respect for you and I didn't want it to just be out there and you find it.

somewhere and have that. So did you give any considerations of what this is going to do to Angel's life, to your daddy's life, to my life? This is Michelle talking with her mother Lisa. I have a thousand percent. Because you could literally be taking away our income and everything. You could literally be ruining everything that we've worked hard for, that I've tried to overcome and work hard for after all these years. You can literally take our whole entire life away if you don't understand that. Well, I'm not here to hurt you. It feels that way, but I'm not.

Because you've always been very rebellious your whole entire life. Mama, all I'm asking is some accountability. Nobody is irredeemable. I mean, what do you want access to all my medical records? No, I don't. I don't. I don't know, Mama, but I don't believe you and I don't trust you. And if you're and it doesn't matter what I say, I've been gaslit my whole life by anybody and everybody.

Things still don't make sense to me. They're never going to. Don't, because you have lied to us. Yeah, I have. I mean, you lied to me, he's lied to us, she's lied to us. You're right. I have lied to you, but I have not lied to you to that point, and that is not the same thing. Lying is a lie. I understand a lie is a lie, but a lie is very different when you are causing yourself direct harm or causing the children in your life direct harm. I did. I exaggerated it.

Does that mean it's much housing by proxy? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But here's the thing. Why label me with something? Why? Why label me with something I can't overcome? Because you can. Because, mama, please listen. Please listen. You're asking me to listen to you. Please listen to me. The story we're covering this season gets at many of the core questions of this show. How do you cope with the truth when the truth is unfathomable? Can dragging long, hidden horrors into the light help us heal? Bring us peace?

even maybe reconcile with those who've harmed us? Or are there things that, even for the most compassionate among us, simply can't be forgiven? Malcolm Gladwell here. I recently recorded the first episode of Smart Talks with IBM, where I learned how AI agents are joining AI assistants as a major productivity tool.

Let's start with AI agents. AI agents can reason, plan, and collaborate with other AI tools to autonomously perform tasks for a user. Brian Bissell, an expert from IBM, gave me an example of how a college freshman might use an AI agent.

As a new student, you may not know, how do I deal with my health and wellness issue? How many credits am I going to get for this given class? You could talk to someone and find out some of that, but maybe it's a little bit sensitive and you don't want to do that. Bissell told me you could build an AI agent, a resource for new students that helps them navigate a new campus, register for classes, access the services they need, and even schedule appointments on their behalf, which in turn buys them more time to focus on their actual schoolwork.

We can see patterns of how agents and assistants can help employees and customers and end users be more productive, automate workflows so they're not doing certain types of repetitive work over and over again, and streamlining their lives and making data more accessible to them 24 hours a day. To learn more about IBM's AI agents and how they can help your business, visit ibm.com slash agents.

As a small business owner, you don't have the luxury of clocking out early. Your business is on your mind 24-7. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that grinds just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn Jobs. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network, and get qualified candidates that you can manage all in one place.

Here's how it works. First, post your job. LinkedIn's new feature can help you write job descriptions and then quickly get your job in front of the right people with deep candidate insights.

Second, either post your job for free or pay to promote it. Promoted jobs get three times more qualified applicants. Then, get qualified candidates. At the end of the day, the most important thing to your small business is the quality of the candidates you attract. And with LinkedIn, you can feel confident that you're getting the best. Then...

Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of SMBs using LinkedIn say that LinkedIn helps them find high-quality candidates. And last, share with your network. You can let your network know you're hiring. You can even add a hashtag hiring frame to your profile picture and get two times more qualified candidates.

Find out why more than 2.5 million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash gladwell dash fake. That's linkedin.com slash gladwell dash fake to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. At Amika Insurance...

We know it's more than a life policy. It's about the promise and the responsibility that comes with being a new parent. Being there day and night and building a plan for tomorrow, today. For the ones you'll always look out for, trust Amica Life Insurance. Amica. Empathy is our best policy. We tend to think of the past as fixed, immutable. But the reality is more complex.

Our history with our own parents shifts as we get older and reach new milestones. As we become ages, we actually remember them being. And particularly if we become parents ourselves, everything about our family of origin suddenly appears in a new light. I've learned this is an especially dramatic process for people like Michelle, whose childhoods were traumatic, whose memories buried themselves out of self-protection.

As Michelle has found hard-earned stability and safety in her adult life, disturbing memories have begun to reemerge. She has questions about what happened to her and her siblings, and leaving them unanswered has become unbearable. So we got to work looking for the truth in the small rural town where we lay our scene: Hazelhurst, Georgia. We had a Walmart and a huddle house. What is a huddle house? Because we do not have a huddle house in the North, no.

I've heard a lot about Hazlehurst, the town where generations of McDaniels were born and raised. It's a sleepy, rural town three hours outside Atlanta. Now it was time to see it for myself. Do you know what a Waffle House is? I just learned. I mean, I know what a Waffle House is, but I didn't really know what a Waffle House was. I had to really explain a Waffle House last night when we were driving. Yeah.

That is my producer Mariah, who was also raised in the South, and Michelle enjoying me being a fish out of water as we chatted in a hotel room in the quaint little college town of Valdosta, where Michelle now lives. I also discovered the uniquely Southern miracle that is Bucky's on this trip. So it was quite the cultural exchange. These are just not things we have in the North. And then I was trying to sing her the Jonas Brothers song and she was like, I don't know what you're talking about. I'm from Waffle House, we're gonna work it out. Yeah.

She's like, I know. She's like, I don't listen to Jonas Brothers. And I was like, I don't listen to Jonas Brothers either. But it's just all the radio. How could you miss this? It's everywhere. So Huddle House is like, Huddle House is a Waffle House. It's like a Waffle House and Waffle House and Jason. Don't say that in the South because you'll get in trouble. But I personally believe that a Huddle House is just a better Waffle House. However, that is probably the most controversial thing I will say on this podcast.

Okay, so you're talking about the home, the hometown? Yeah. Walmart. We got a Walmart and a huddle house. Okay. Which is, I mean, that's where we hung out. Like, as teenagers, we hung out in the Walmart parking lot or at the huddle house at 2 a.m. That was, that's what we did. And we had, that's why we had babies so young. Nothing to get them, nothing else to do. The cops would get mad and run us off from Walmart, and then where else are you going to go? You went home and had babies, so...

I don't know. I don't even remember where I was going with that. The next morning, we make the drive out to the town where both Michelle and her mother Lisa grew up. Hazlehurst is in rural South Georgia, and we head there on a bright, chilly winter day. There are few signs of life between Valdosta and Hazlehurst. Mostly, it's long stretches of beautiful country roads.

On the day we drive there, there's sunlight sifting through the rows and rows of white pine, many of them bent at tortured angles following the devastation of Hurricane Helene. Yeah, I feel like there is... There is like a... I think there's going to be a good just little moment of like, Hazelhurst, Georgia is known for. Well, there was a murder. This murder. American Idol star. American Idol star and... 90 Day Fiancé. Angela from 90 Day Fiancé. That wraps it up.

Remote as it is, I'm not the first true crime podcaster to come through Hazelhurst. In 2021, Foxhunter covered the murder of Rhonda Sue Coleman, a girl in Lisa McDaniel's high school class who was killed just before they graduated. Michelle is also one degree away from another famous Hazelhurst native, Will Mosley, the 2024 American Idol runner-up, who is her husband's brother.

They don't have any known connection, however, to the woman who is perhaps Hazel Hurst's most famous resident, the truly iconic Angela from 90 Day Fiancé. Angela, Angela, sit down. Angela, choose to respect us, please. I'm his f***ing elder. He's an idiot. You think it's f***ing funny, Michael?

As we make our way into town, Michelle points out landmarks from her past. The turnoff to her granny's house, her mother-in-law's home, and the church where her parents got married. Then, we finally arrive at the pizza joint where we're meeting Michelle's aunt Sabrina, her mother Lisa's younger sister. You just realized how hungry I was? Hello! Hello!

Listen, this one's not on me and I don't know why you're surprised I'm late to everything. And we're only a few minutes late. You're always late for everything. I know, but Andrea is too.

How are you? In my defense, part of the reason we were late was because our hotel had coffee but not breakfast, and then the breakfast place had food but no coffee. And this conversation with Sabrina was going to be intense. Between that and my jet lag, tea was not going to cut it. So, Sabrina, did you, you were born, raised, lived all your life in Hazlehurst? Yes. Okay.

At 47, Sabrina is a few years older than me, and we have daughters the same age. I never know exactly how someone's going to feel about me coming around asking them to relive their worst traumas.

But Sabrina puts us all immediately at ease with her funny, acerbic charm as we settle into one of the only restaurants in town, a dimly lit pizza joint with dark wood paneling and narrow booths. We post up in the empty party room, likely more used to hosting end-of-the-year sports banquets than nosy northerners with podcasts. Sabrina explains how she and her sister Lisa grew up. How would you describe the town? That's loaded. Yeah.

It is quiet country until something happens and then everybody knows it. And because everybody knows everybody, it's kind of like everybody tries to know your business all the time. So if something major ever happens, it's not as talked about for decades and decades and decades.

So people do not forget it until something new happens and then they'll talk about that and bring up. You know that so-and-so that did so-and-so back in 1997. Yeah, and it's always like, well, you know, that person is related to, you know, you always have that kind of relation. And I've always said, man, if I can ever move...

And then because you go other like Savannah or Atlanta or somewhere and nobody cares who your mama is. Nobody cares who your grandma is or your grandpa or whatever. They're just like, oh, where are you from? You know, so it's just it's different because it's everybody knows everybody. So which is a good thing sometimes. But then.

people try to get in your business too much. Nobody has anything else to do. Yeah, it's like there's nothing else to do. Which is the downfall because there's really nothing to do. So we don't have a theater. We used to have a theater and a skating rink. We don't have either one of those anymore.

So it's for kid, kid-wise and stuff like that, it's quiet but nothing to do other than go to school and do like the school activities or stuff like that. I told them yesterday that's why we all have babies so young because there's nothing else to do. I've never really thought about it that way but okay. I mean that probably is the legit reason. Adria didn't even know what a huddle house or waffle house was until this year. You said what now? She didn't know what a huddle house or a waffle house was.

Wait, what? I'm going to get emails about Waffle House for the rest of my life, aren't I? Hazlehurst only has about 4,000 residents, so it's no surprise that everyone is up in each other's business. Timber is the main industry, and families and communities are tight-knit out of necessity. Tell us about your parents. It's weird because as you get older, like as I've gotten older and grown and had my own kids,

I realized that a lot of things, especially my mom would do, was not normal, but you think it's normal because that's what you grow it at them. But like my dad, he always, he worked, it was called Cook & Company over in Lumber City, and he worked there until it closed. So my dad, when I was younger, he worked what they called the swing shift, so he would work days and nights.

He just expected you to behave, do what you were told, and you just really didn't have any problems at that. My mama, everybody thought my mama was great. Let me just say that. Like, my friends thought she was fabulous. Everybody thought my mama was fabulous. But my mama would be like,

If you don't do this, you don't love me. And y'all just don't love me the way it... Y'all, you love your daddy, but you don't love me because you don't treat me the same as you treat your daddy. If y'all loved me, I wouldn't do that. And it would be nothing other than we wouldn't have all the clothes washed or we wouldn't do the dishes immediately. Typical kid things. Well, y'all just don't love me.

And like then when you're growing up, you think, okay, that's just normal. Everybody kind of deals with that. But then you get older, you realize that's not normal at all. But like I say, all my friends loved her growing up.

they thought, "Oh, your mama is great!" But my mama, I always said my mama had a switch. It was like she was one person when she was around you and she flipped the switch when your friends were around. Do you think maybe that set up kind of a dynamic where you felt like you had to take care of your mom's feelings? Yes, yes. It definitely was a, "Let's tread lightly. Let's not do anything to upset her," because that just

made the days even worse. But it was a delicate balance because looking at it now, I see a lot of Lisa's personality was the same as my mom. But then it was always a delicate balance. You had to dance around mom and her feelings, but you had to tiptoe around Lisa too because Lisa always had a keen way she could manipulate my mama. Just

You know, she would have my mama convinced that something she did that I did or my little sister did. And so when my daddy came home, it was like, "Well, what did you do that for?" And I'm like, "But I didn't. I didn't do it at all." You know, she would, it was just, you always had to just tread the water, tread the water, tread the water.

Malcolm Gladwell here. I recently recorded the first episode of Smart Talks with IBM, where I learned how AI agents are joining AI assistance as a major productivity tool. Let's start with AI agents. AI agents can reason, plan, and collaborate with other AI tools to autonomously perform tasks for a user. Brian Bissell, an expert from IBM, gave me an example of how a college freshman might use an AI agent.

As a new student, you may not know, how do I deal with my health and wellness issue? How many credits am I going to get for this given class? You could talk to someone and find out some of that, but maybe it's a little bit sensitive and you don't want to do that. Bissell told me you could build an AI agent, a resource for new students that helps them navigate a new campus, register for classes, access the services they need, and even schedule appointments on their behalf, which in turn buys them more time to focus on their actual schoolwork.

We can see patterns of how agents and assistants can help employees and customers and end users be more productive, automate workflows so they're not doing certain types of repetitive work over and over again, and streamlining their lives and making data more accessible to them 24 hours a day. To learn more about IBM's AI agents and how they can help your business, visit ibm.com slash agents.

At Amica Insurance, we know it's more than a life policy. It's about the promise and the responsibility that comes with being a new parent. Being there day and night and building a plan for tomorrow, today. For the ones you'll always look out for. Trust Amica Life Insurance. Amica. Empathy is our best policy.

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Spending this time with Michelle's Aunt Sabrina was only my second opportunity to get to speak to someone who'd grown up with a perpetrator, the first being my conversations with Hope Ybarra's siblings way back in season one. The sisters' history is lengthy and dark, and though they're not fully estranged, their relationship seems unlikely to survive Sabrina's decision to be with me today. Because Lisa's child abuse conviction more than 20 years ago, that's just the beginning of this story.

- And did she have any health issues with it? - Who? - Lisa. - No. Well, when she got to be like maybe 14 or 15 and maybe it was 16, she went through the trying to make herself throw up state. - Believing. - Yeah. And my daddy really got upset and got aggravated with her and kind of got in her face about it and so she kind of quit doing it.

So I think it was more of a, I'm just going to do it to see the attention I can get off of it because she loved some attention. Can you think of some other examples of stuff that really struck you as her trying to get attention? She did a lot. She would just do random things. We were at one of my dad's friend's house. Their phone rang and it was Lisa.

And she's like, "Somebody threw a brick through the window." And Daddy's like, "Well, let me go. Y'all stay here. Let me go see what's going on." He's like, "Call the police." And when he got there, there was a big hole in the future window where she had threw a brick through it and tried to throw a brick through the window next to it. And she will never say it was her, but it was her.

I mean, she just, because they found no evidence of anybody else being in the yard, no other shoe prints, no anything like that. She would do stuff like that all the time. Anything to call and say, oh, I need help. I need help.

So even if Lisa didn't have the health history in her youth that we often see with perpetrators, there's always this common theme of deception and finding, or creating, opportunities to be a victim.

One of the perpetually confusing things for me about looking back at my own childhood with my sister Megan, whose case I've covered in depth on this show previously, is that even though I do see signs of trouble looking in the rear view, my experience of our childhood together was mostly good. But for Sabrina and Lisa, not so much. And see, that's the thing. People assume that.

What happened, what she did to Angelin was like the first sign, but there were so many signs when we were growing up. My dad had this butcher knife. It was probably 10 inches long with a three or four inch handle.

She would get it and chase us. And you're her, you're the youngest of three sisters? I'm the middle. I'm the middle of three. So, like I said, that butcher knife, she would take it, especially my little sister. She would do it more to my little sister, but she would, for no reason, she would just randomly grab it when my parents were gone and just chase. And then, you know, those old cast iron frying pans, she would get them and chase you around the house.

And she would just do all kind of like mean stuff like that. But it was never her fault. It was never, well, I just did it because I was mean. Because she was. Well, they did X, Y, or Z, and that's why I did it. I think we were excited to get rid of her.

Just to interject, by get rid of her, Sabrina is talking about when Lisa disappeared into her relationship with her then-boyfriend, now-husband, Carrie. Nothing more sinister than that. At least, not yet.

I mean, but then you have to understand she was just so mean to us. I mean, she did. It was never her fault. It was always somebody else's fault. You said something to her out of the way or you looked at her funny or I mean, it was just random stuff like little things that shouldn't trigger being chased by a butcher knife or a cast iron frying pan that she would do.

And then as she got older and started dating Carrie, that was when, you know, everybody wore class rings, like their boyfriend's class rings. And she would take it and turn it around and she would hit my little sister, especially, like, upside the head with it. And just, she just always, she wanted attention. It becomes clear as we dig into Lisa's backstory with Sabrina that chaos and drama have been a constant theme.

And Lisa's relationship with Michelle's father, Kerry, was no exception. When she started dating Kerry, she told my mom and dad that Kerry was four years older than she was.

And Carrie was almost 11 years older than she is. So he was closer. - 26 and 15. - Yeah. - So he was closer to like my dad and mom's age category than my sister, because it was, you know, if you look at it. - I did the math one time and he was closer to Nana's age by like, I think four or five months. - Yeah. So that was the first lie. That's how it started.

The fact that this relationship began with a lie is fitting for reasons that will become clear as we go. Today, this relationship would be a crime. But at the time in Georgia, the age of consent was 14. Yikes. And then it just, it just, it was one lie after another lie after another lie after another lie. And then you just get, my mom and dad just got to the point that

Once Lisa was out of high school and married to Carrie, it wasn't long before they got busy doing what the rest of Lisa's peers were doing, making babies.

And then, so they got married after high school and then she gets pregnant with... Yeah, but I was excited she was having Michelle, you know, and you know everything was good for a little while. I don't know if you remember, but... Yeah, I remember when I was born. No, I mean, you were born and you were just a few months old. She started getting left with like, at our house all the time.

Like I did? Yeah, you did. But even before that, WM, which is Carrie's dad, had money. And they were spending it left, right, and sideways. So they were kind of always going somewhere. When she got pregnant with Michelle, that brought her a lot of attention. And so she was good to stay at home for a little while because it got her so much attention.

And then when Michelle got a few months old, it was like, okay, the attention kind of faded away. So it was like, okay. And of course, you know, she's a baby. Everybody wants to keep a baby.

There is always a pattern of troubling behavior that precedes Munchausen by proxy abuse. And that's why these narratives from family members are so crucial. They were there for all of the foreshadowing. But there is the question of why and how pregnancy and motherhood kicks this into high gear.

My kids are six and two, so I've been through this period of my life pretty recently. In the best case scenario, pregnancy and having a brand new baby aren't crisis situations in and of themselves, but they command a similar sort of all-hands-on-deck attention, especially on your first one. People send food and gifts and go out of their way to come and meet and hold your precious little potato. ♪

So it's easy to see why this could kick attention-seeking behaviors into high gear. And after this period of attention ended, Lisa didn't seem to have much attachment to or interest in little baby Michelle. She was at our house. She called me mama before she called her mama mama. Is that real? Are you making that up? I'm dead serious. I'm dead serious. You started saying mama one day at...

Well, I wasn't married then. I was still living at home. And it was my, she was calling me mama. And I'm like, "Hey, I love you, but I'm not your mama." - 'Cause you're a teenager. - Yeah, I'm a teenager. So I'm like, "I love you, but I'm not your mama." Most of the time when we got her, they would drop her off on the weekend, I guess, like when he would be off.

And she would stay three or four days and they would come get her. And then when the weekend comes, she'd stay three or four days and they'd come back. I don't know. Lisa really never worked. - How was Lisa as a mom in that time period? - Well, it's kind of hard to say because when Michelle was first born and was a baby, she seemed to be attentive and everything. But then she started leaving her at everybody else's house.

I would say, you know, part-time mom, maybe. I mean, for lack of better. Because it was just hard to get that feel because she was always at our house or at Debbie and Bernice's house. So she was never really around parenting her. I mean, like I say, it's hard to kind of gauge what kind of parent she was because she always left her. And then I got pregnant with my oldest one, and she was born in '96.

I mean, she was born in October of '96, but when I got pregnant with her, of course, you know, you get a lot of attention when you announce you're pregnant and everything. And you could just tell in Lisa's face and how she acted that she could not stand it. She absolutely hated it. She could not stand it. And just how dare you take any spotlight away from her, which of course was not my intent. Then the next thing we know,

She was pregnant with Angelin. Fabulous! You know, I was happy for her. Who wouldn't, you know, be happy for somebody, you know, having a child if that's what they want to do? My oldest was born in October, and then right after that, it was one thing after another after another. I fell down the doorsteps. I need to go to the ER. I fell down the doorsteps again. I've called the ambulance.

Just all kind of little things like that. The reality is she never fell down the doorstep. She threw herself down the doorsteps one time. The reason why I think she threw herself down the doorsteps is because the way they said she landed right with the edge of the doorstep right directly in her stomach. Anyway, that triggered the whole series of events with Angel Uncommon early. She fell and she went into labor.

"She got pregnant on purpose as a way to get attention for herself, but I don't know that she ever really planned on actually the baby surviving, if that makes sense what I'm saying." This insinuation that Lisa got pregnant with Michelle's little sister, Angeline, and then interfered with that pregnancy to draw attention to herself might sound shocking, but to me, it's all too familiar.

Fake pregnancies, followed by fake dramatic miscarriages, along with real pregnancies, followed by induced obstetrical complications and premature births, are absolutely textbook in these cases. The timing of my older sister's pregnancy hoax is a good example of this. It came right in the middle of a falling out with my parents after she had committed check fraud.

which, for the record, they did bail her out of. And it also came right on the heels of her boyfriend breaking up with her after discovering she'd been abusive with his son. Most people would never use it, but a pregnancy can be a pretty powerful trump card. And Lisa was a master at dragging people into her warped version of reality. When you get so good at telling a lie,

She has an uncanny ability to make people believe, well not us anymore, but she can make people believe just about anything she wanted to about anybody. And I'm, you know, it's how do you get that dark? Like how do you, I don't, I don't understand how people can not see the true color she is. It's a never ending cycle. It's one thing, it's one thing after another, after another. And I don't,

I hardly ever communicate with her because it's just every time you do, you're just waiting on that knife to get twisted a little bit further and a little bit further. And you know, you get to the point where it's like, look, I forgave you. I have never told her I forgive her. I forgive her for my peace, not for hers. I forgave her for me, for my inner peace, but it's just constant. And that's the reason why I don't have a lot to do with her because every time I

You talk to her, it opens the gate for her to twist it a little bit more. And in my adult life, I don't have room for that. And I don't want my kids to learn that. I don't want my kids to have to deal with that and think that that's acceptable because that's somebody who's related to you. But that doesn't mean you have to accept how they act or what they do. She's my sister. Do I love her? Yes. But I love her from a distance because I don't have to accept her in my life.

Making a show like this, you have to watch out for people who want to settle a score or punish someone who's harmed them. It's too precarious of a place to be in when you're taking the vulnerable step of sharing something like this.

I sympathize deeply with people who want to make abusers pay, but we just don't do revenge journeys here on this show. We look for the truth and we tell it. What happens next isn't really up to me. I look for people who really share the ethos of this show, which is about bringing this abuse to light, about protecting kids and educating those who we've trusted to do so.

It's why I knew that despite how harrowing this particular case is, Michelle was up for the challenge. I've watched her wrestle with the decision to go public. I've watched her interrogate her own motives. And that's why I'm so sure they're the right ones. I'm sitting here outside on the balcony in San Diego preparing for a conference on much-housed-on-my-proxy and being able to speak

I know that I've really struggled with doing this because my mom does this. My mom travels and she talks to doctors and she gives presentations. She's giving presentations here in San Diego and I've been so nervous and worried. Does that make me like her? I'm sitting here and it just kind of hits me that this is not built on lies for me.

This is not built on manipulation. I just told the truth. Lisa McDaniel would like you to believe that the version of her found online is the real her. The Lisa who has, according to the Guthey Jackson Foundation's website, educated more than 50,000 people on her son's rare disorder. My name is Lisa McDaniel. I think I know most of you.

What I do is I go out and I talk to doctors and hospitals, really anybody who wants to listen to me in my southern charm. So the way I started was with my son's pediatrician, told her what I was wanting to do, because as you guys know, sometimes our doctors don't know. What I normally do is

Well,

Since you asked, Lisa, actually, I do have a few questions for you. This season on Nobody Should Believe Me. I'm actually amazed from what you're telling me that this child lived through this. He said, do you think your sister's doing something to her? I'm like, don't ever say that again. Neither one of those children were suffering because of a disease. How somebody could do that?

to a child that was so little and so helpless still to this day haunts me. The judge gave full custody back to them. I stood up and I told him, "I hope you don't sleep when you go home tonight. You have no idea what you've done and you should be ashamed of yourself." There's a pattern. This fits a pattern and it is lethal. Munchausen by proxy.

The longer it sits with me and the more I think about all these things that that doctor said, the more I am so pissed off. As a caregiver, you pour yourself into advocacy and helping other people. That's who I am at heart as a helper. My mother tortured my brother and these doctors and this hospital went along with it and they co-signed on it and they helped her torture him.

Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our supervising producer is Mariah Gossett. Our senior producer is Taj Easton. Assistant editor and associate producer is Greta Stromquist. Research and fact-checking by Aaron Ajayi. Engineering and mixing by Robin Edgar. And administrative producing by Nola Karmouche. Music provided by Blue Dot Sessions, SoundSnap, and Slipstream Media.

Special thanks to Michelle Roberts. It's Megan. Are you ready for hashtag Megan Summer? Megan? Megan. Megan. Megan. Would you prefer that I give you a printout that you can read at your own pace? Megan? Yes, it's me. What a shock, etc. On June 27th. She is a smoking hot warrior princess. All right, meat sacks, let's get to work. Are you going to stand in my way?

The B is back. Do you think you learned your lesson the first time? Megan. Megan 2.0 only in theaters June 27th. Rated PG-13.

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