Jordan Sullivan: Fueling for Sports Performance & Body Composition
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the science and practice of enhancing human performance for sport, play, and life. Welcome to Perform. I'm Dr. Andy Galpin. I'm a professor and scientist and the executive director of the Human Performance Center at Parker University.

Today I'm talking to Jordy Sullivan. Jordy is a dietician who has worked with many of the best athletes in the world in a variety of sports. He's also a practitioner, having participated and competed in many jiu-jitsu, ultra-marathon, and other endurance events.

Jordy's clients, as I mentioned, are some of the best of the best. You're talking about many UFC world champions, other individuals like Ned Brockman, who recently ran 1,000 miles in 12 days. So Jordy's knowledge of the practical aspects of fueling for performance are really unparalleled.

In this conversation, we talked a lot about the details, how much water, how many grams of carbohydrates, what type of carbohydrates, and as many other details as I could possibly fit in to exactly how do I fuel performance or just getting enough fuel to exercise for people not competing in sports. Jordy did a fantastic job in this conversation.

outlining how this does change in different scenarios with different goals and populations and people. So while Jordy has spent most of his career with these elite high-profile athletes, he's also been coaching non-athletes for well over a decade. And that comes through really clearly in the conversation. So please enjoy this conversation with my friend, Jordy Sullivan. Jordy Sullivan, welcome to the show, man. Andy, thanks.

Thanks for having me. I've followed your work for a long time. It's in my opinion that no one even is close to rivaling you and your area. So really appreciate you being here. We're going to cover a lot of areas we'll globally call like sports performance fueling. But I actually want to start with two things really quickly. And I want to see if you even know what they are. So this is a little bit of a challenge to you. So let me read this one actually that I have written down for you. Okay. Number one.

yogurt with berries and honey number two meal chipotle chicken with rice and avocado number three tiara masseau dates uh with oatmeal number four lobster roll number five a sports drink number six lamb rice bowl number seven a banana with honey all that in one day do you know what i'm talking about i have a good feeling what you're talking about yeah

Tell us what that actually is. Yeah. So last weekend I participated in my first High Rocks competition. And if you don't know, High Rocks is kind of the new age CrossFit. So it's a mix of strength sports and then endurance sports. So the setup is you run eight kilometers as fast as you can, and then you jump in and out of these stations. So yeah, me and my team went down to Melbourne and did that. And that was the fueling plan going into it. So it was really good. So you ate all of that in one day prior to competition? Yeah. Yeah.

We're going to have to go through that in detail. I don't want to know exactly why you ate that because my guess is you weren't just sort of eating whatever you had in front of you and trying to consume as much food. There was a little bit of intention and strategy with the food items, the calories, the macronutrient split.

the time you ate that, all that was very strategic, I assume. Yeah, there were definitely goals behind it. I'll be honest, though, that was my first competition. So a lot of that was just self-experiments. Of that type of competition. Of that type of competition, right? Same as you, Andy. You work with so many different types of athletes. A big one for me is if I'm telling these athletes, hey, go eat this way, and then I'm saying, hey, man, have all this food before you go and compete, I kind of want to know what that feels like because so many times I've done it where...

hey, go eat X amount of carbohydrates before you go do this wrestling class. And it's like, there's no way I'm having two bowls of Cocoa Pops and three sandwiches before I go out there because what's going to happen? Start rolling, start wrestling around and blah. So going through that is, yeah, just a bit of self-experiment. But there was a lot of logic behind that. And I think it worked pretty well. We'll go through it. All right, great.

And to clarify, that was not your first competition. You've been competing in jujitsu for many years. You've done a large number of endurance events, ultra marathons, and so on and so forth, which we'll cover. I want to read a second one to you, which I think is a little more interesting because I think you can hear that and go, well, that's great. If I'm going to do this crazy endurance events, I could probably eat like that. But I can't eat like that all the time. I don't do things like that.

So maybe let me turn to something that's maybe a little bit more realistic sounding. All right, let me read this one to you. Number one, a protein mousse cup with almond butter and berries. Number two, grilled salmon and pineapple salsa. Three, protein chocolate and almond mud cake. Four, jelly beans. Five, Parmesan chicken. And six, coconut cookies and chocolate.

Do you know what I'm talking about there? Yeah. That's the old fight week protocol. This is a full day menu. This would be 1,900 calories, 60 grams of carbohydrates, 140 grams of protein, and 125 grams of fat. This is an actual meal plan that you gave one of your high-level UFC fighters during the week in which he was trying to lose probably, what, 10 kilos? 8 kilos? Yeah, 10% of his body weight. For him, that was about 13 pounds or so. 13 pounds or so.

And so I'm pointing this out to say, I don't think people think if I have to lose 10 pounds in a week that I would be eating a daily meal structure of protein powder mousse cups with almond butter, grilled salmon, chicken, chocolates, and jelly beans. And yet somehow you've managed to get all of your high-level athletes on weight, fueled correctly.

How in the world is it possible that you can eat like that and lose that kind of weight while still performing? Yeah. And I guess we'll go into it, but like you said, that was one for, I think that was Kaikara France. That was Kaikara France. Yeah. I was going to say, it definitely sounds like a Kai type of meal plan. Kai is one of the most elite UFC fighters in the world, but-

When UFC fighters compete, and you know this, Andy, you might be walking around at 180 pounds, but when you weigh in for the UFC, you might be 150 pounds. So there's 30 pounds difference between what your natural walk-around weight is and then what your contracted fight weight is. So that meal plan is actually part of a strategy where what we're doing is we're trying to strategically move water weight

from their body. And it's part of a two-part process where we'll go through what's called a fight camp, which is eight weeks of training, really intense mixed martial arts training, which involves anywhere from one to four hours a day of training. And what we're doing during that process is we're strategically losing body fat. And so we can lose up to

5 to 10% of their body weight just in that period. And then what we do is we move into the second phase, which is that diet where we completely shift these macronutrients around. And the goal of that is to shift 10% of their body weight again. But instead of losing body fat, what we're doing is we're pulling fluid from different compartments in their body. And the way that we do that is by

changing the macronutrients. The problem traditionally with UFC fighters is instead of eating like that, they'll just eat chicken breast, nuts, water, and they'll do that three times a day. And anyone that has...

any enjoyment with food we'll do that for about two meals and go this is terrible and so i guess that's our job right as we come in and we go look we've got these principles we know what we're going to do we know we can do that how do we make this whole experience so much better for you not only is it it makes it the food way tastier but just mentally like being able to look forward to a meal like that instead of boiled chicken and some almonds and going oh god it's

It just makes it so much better. And then that just flows onto this whole performance principle that we have, that we want to get this guy going into this cage, peak physical condition, peak mental condition. And that's just part of the process. Today's episode is sponsored by Momentus. Momentus makes the highest quality supplements on the planet, period. While

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with the purchase of any Element drink mix. Again, that's drinklmnt.com slash perform to claim a free sample pack. One of the many reasons I wanted to have you on in chat is because

You can come up with and you can look at the research papers and you can go over basic physiology and you can understand how many calories to give somebody. There is some discussion there, but for the most part, this is not incredibly complicated. You can then set a macronutrient guidelines. So how much protein, how much carbohydrates, such like that. You could probably pull all that from academic courses and papers. But then how do you put that together in food? How

How do you make that something where somebody can, as you mentioned, enjoy that, sustain that? How can that be sustained while then not also compromising long-term minerals and vitamins? And how do we put together structures that

In the case of the UFC fighter, it's a little bit niche, right? Like not many people are going to cut a bunch of weight for five days. But the concepts and the learnings we can get for that, I think, extend to everybody. So whether I'm fueling right before sport performance or exercise, whether I'm fueling my day, whether I'm in a caloric deficit, whether I'm in a caloric surplus,

And so I really want to ask as many questions as I can and learn from you about how do we do that part, right? How do we do the art of taking the science there and then making it into a practice that makes life so much more enjoyable? So we're going to get into all those things if you're so willing and a bunch of other stuff. But I think to get us started, maybe we'll wind all the way back. You use a term a lot that I love that I want to ask you about, and that is performance nutrition.

So can you just walk us through what is the difference between nutrition as we normally think about it and how you and your team define performance nutrition? Yeah, I think when we think of nutrition, like you said, it's food, right? And food is integral.

to our life. We are what we eat, quite literally. The body that we're in is made by the food that we eat. And like you said, you can just break that down into little numbers. You can break that down into your macronutrients. You can break that down into an eating plan and it can be quite boring. But when we look at performance nutrition, we need to look at it a lot more holistically. It's like, yes, there's the physical food and we need to break that physical side down a bit more in depth than just the macronutrients. We're looking at, okay,

How does Andy Galpin, what are the goals in his life and how can I best fuel him to achieve those goals? Whether Andy's a UFC fighter, whether Andy's an ultra endurance athlete, whether Andy's a busy CEO, just looking to perform his best in the boardroom meetings, whatever.

relating with his staff, whether there's a stay at home mom, everyone has different goals that you're trying to achieve and your food can play an integral role in that. But each person, each one of those Andes is going to have a slightly different plan and slightly different strategy based on those goals. And that's just the physical side of it. And like you alluded to earlier,

yes, food is just what we put in our mouth and you can just dial it down to numbers, but it's so much more, right? Like we get so much enjoyment from food and you'd know, like it's the festive season. One of the best parts about Christmas is

You're sitting around with your family, right? Like it's that connection as well. So it's like, how can you incorporate food? So it's a bit more than just a meal plan, just numbers, just plain, boring chicken, rice and veg. How can you make a plan that achieves the goal of this individual, does it so they can perform at their best, but do it in a way that they love it. And that food doesn't become this boring, monotonous thing. And it helps them holistically.

I love it. One of the reasons why we called this show Perform was it's many of the same sentiments, right? It's not athletes, it's not sport, but it is you all want to perform a certain way. You gave a bunch of different examples of that. And what we can glean from your definition of performance nutrition is saying, great, let's just take our entire fueling strategy.

And gear it towards how we want to perform. And you define those terms of perform. You tell us the restrictions, the equations and all that stuff. And that will just help you make that a better experience overall. I'll admit I am quite terrible at this part. I am definitely much more of the here's chicken, broccoli and an ounce of almonds and get the heck out of here. That's why I don't write meal plans for our stuff because it's not a particularly enjoyable experience. But that's great. So.

Performance nutrition, in your perspective, is pretty clear. How is that different than something like periodized nutrition? So I guess when we're talking about periodized nutrition, you're more talking about sporting performance, right? So let's take, for example, the UFC guy, just because we're on topic. So that UFC person might have a training schedule that requires them to train 20 to 25 hours a week.

So what I would do and I would come in as the performance nutrition, I'd go, okay, what's the goal of this, say, training block? Let's say we're in a fight camp. We need to lose weight. He's got to lose a crazy amount of weight, 10, 15% of their body weight. As part of that, I've got to work out, okay, this is his weekly calorie budget. So I need to periodize a weekly calorie budget for this person to hit this weight goal each week.

And as part of that, they're going to have this training schedule, which varies, right? So Monday might be a very intense day. Tuesday, maybe not so much. Wednesday is a really intense day. Thursday, moderate. Friday, rest day. Saturday, very intense. So they're going to have all these different things.

training intensities throughout the week. And then it's my job to come in and go, okay, I've only got this small amount of calories to work with. How do I best allocate these? And that's where this idea of periodizing nutrition comes in, where I go, okay, Andy just got signed to the UFC. He's making his debut. He's got this crazy training schedule. We've got 25 hours of training, but he's only got

a calorie budget of anywhere between 1,800 and 2,800 calories a day. So how can I best shift those calories and those different fuel sources so that Andy's performing the best he can in those training sessions? Probably even more importantly, how is he recovering between those training sessions? You can only train as hard as you recover. And then how can we best support the adaptations that we want to get from those training sessions? And that's what we mean when we talk about periodized nutrition.

So what you described is a weekly change, a daily change rather in fueling, particularly in energy, overall energy based upon demand, right? So does that periodization then change from week to week? Like if you were to compare that to something like periodized strength training, where there's a day-to-day variation, but then there's also a, hey, this week to next week, volume's going to go up 5% or intensity or something like that. In these cases, when you've got say four to 10 weeks, whether it's a UFC fighter or any of your other

many types of athletes you work with or even non-athletes for that matter do you see yourself generally plotting out those weeks in advance as well or do you do you like to see how the week goes and then make the changes kind of week to week yeah it's definitely a give and take type scenario because and you know this just as well as me Andy you can have the theoretical best idea in the world and and

And then how does that play out in practice? And food as well is one of those things where I can write it on the meal plan. I can have this great communication, but did you do it? And I find with a lot of people, when you go into this periodized model and say for an athlete, we go, okay, the goal here, say we're not in a fight camp, we're not losing weight. Let's just say we want to get you really, really strong, fast, explosive. We're really focusing on that high intensity training.

training. And when I look at that, I go, okay, that's your glycolytic system, which means you need to have a lot of carbohydrates on board. That's the predominant fuel source. We want to get all these enzymatic changes that help you get up there and stay there. So I'm looking for the volume of training that you're doing and the intensity that you're doing it at. This is the nutrition goal.

And if that's the nutrition goal, I need to look at that and go, okay, how do I best fuel you for that? When we're with our top level athletes, we have some really cool systems where we can do weekly testing, where we can see, okay, you're doing these strength testings. Theoretically, you should be getting stronger. If we're doing this and we're doing this training, theoretically, you should be getting fitter. You should be able to be doing more. And we can go even to the weeds of,

punches thrown each round with our elite level boxers, you should be getting better if we're training these systems. They're the type of things that we're monitoring. But at the end of the day, every athlete's still a human, right? So it's like, you need to have that feedback with them where we can look at the labs and we can look at the numbers and we can go, Andy's tracking really, really well. But then you come back and go, Geordie, I'm fried. I just can't do this. And then I look at it and I go, man, Andy's got six more weeks of this.

What do I need to change to make sure that he can keep going? Because the overarching goal of this is to get whatever this X adaptation is. If Andy's telling me that he can't even get through the training for the next five weeks, we're not going to get that adaptation. So even though in theory, this works out perfect. Okay, I need to come in. Me and Andy need to get together. We need to get with the strength coach. We need to get with the head performance coach.

We need to figure out a new system and figure out where is it lacking. And it may not always be the nutrition, right? Like there's so many other things that go into performance. Could be your sleep. Could be your hydration, energy levels, stress. You may have had a fight with your partner the night before or something else, some financial problem going on. And then that's leaking over into that.

So we have to be aware of all of those things because that's what's going to determine how we progress. And they're all going to affect how we monitor your performance. So we need to be aware of the system holistically so that when we do track it, we have some quantifiable data to be able to go, yes, this is working. This is not working. I know recently at one point you had three current UFC world champions. So Alexander Volkanovsky, Israel Adesanya, and Leon Edwards, right? Yeah.

Fortunately, unfortunately enough, I have a strong tie to Volkanovski. You and I have got to coach against each other. Hopefully, we'll get a chance maybe online to do it again. It's always fun. But you're managing three different people at that time in addition to all your other elite athletes and things like that. You don't need to give us any information about them personally. But how much of a range at that highest level of performance do you see with things like compliance? Yeah.

Did they eat the food that they're supposed to eat? Are they all at, when they get to world championship, are they, you know, within 5% of the calories you tell them? Are they, you know, I assume we're all up there, but what does that look like from an individual variation? Yeah. I won't name individual names because this is an example that I always use, right? Like

I've been very fortunate enough. At one time, they were two, three, and four pound-for-pound best fighters in the world. And that's incredible. There is one other human that is better than them at that sport. And that's incredible. So if you took the five pound-for-pound best UFC fighters in the whole world, you were coaching three of the five. Yeah, exactly. And it's incredible, yes, from like, okay, great for your career, but also from the science standpoint, right, to look at it because...

In theory, yeah, these guys are all following the same principles. We're using the same fueling. Periodization principles are similar, but we're changing for their training schedule. Three very, very different humans.

And as you alluded to, I would use this as a great example. One of them, very, very strict. I'd say 99% compliant, followed his meal plan, did everything right. When we're talking about periodizing, he made sure his pre-training carbs were good. His intra-training carbs were good. Whatever we did post-workout was amazing. Hydration, sleep, everything. You name it, he did it. Next person was probably about 80, 20 of that.

Mostly good. Few snacks here and there. Sleep would be a bit bad. Probably stayed out a bit late than what he should have. And then one of them, really not that compliant. Really not that compliant. That's a nice way to say it. Yeah, that's probably the nicest way to put it. The thing is, though, is that when you look at that performance, just...

on the surface, you're going, wow, that's three of the five pound for pound best fighters, not even just USC fighters, best fighters on the planet. And when it came to their performance, it's like, wow, they're performing at the absolute best. But when it comes to what I do with the nutrition, I'm

We've probably got one guy that's very, very good, one guy that's probably about here, and one guy that's not good. And then me, as their practitioner, you obviously make allowances for that. We'd always never, ever miss weight with any of them. But what you tend to see then, and this is probably a very interesting conversation we can get into, it's everything else that happens outside of that and what makes up their performance. And a big one is, say, injury rate.

How often are you getting injured? And at least me sitting in this seat working with these guys, I can tell you that this guy did not get injured nearly as much as this guy. The guy that had the high compliance. The guy that was really, really good with his diet, sleep, recovery, never had got injured, but never as consistently.

illness, sickness, even other things. Mistraining sessions, probably. Mistraining sessions, even sleep quality. We've done sleep studies on them. And it's like, it's very, very clear. But at the end of the day, we're still getting a very, very, very high level performance. And I think it just shows two things. I think performance is very complicated, no matter how you want to define it. And I think it gets more complicated as

the more factors there are in sports. And I would classify mixed martial arts as a very multifaceted sport. Yeah, it's complicated. Let's say running is, say, a single-faceted sport that has some considerations. Very, very, very multifaceted mixed martial arts. So there's obviously lots of other components that are making up this performance. But then I go, but what happens after these guys retire?

And then we've got all these same habits that we built here in the most successful parts of their training years. Now they've got to live with them when they're not training. So what do we do now? And that's where I think, okay, our responsibility in this performance nutrition doesn't just extend to the periodized nutrition, to the training nutrition. You have to be teaching these guys skills for the rest of their life.

Because it's very, very well known, especially in the wrestling world. We see when wrestlers retire, they tend to put on a lot of weight. And the most simple basic reason for that is they keep all of the habits from when they were an extremely active, probably extremely successful college wrestler,

but then they have kids, they get a job, life gets in the way, we get busy. You might go to the gym here and there, but the activity comes down, but the eating habits stay the same and all of the other habits stay the same as well. So you see this like downslope where we go, okay, we're getting all these health problems, we're putting on weight, getting these deficiencies because you can get away with it when you're just training really, really, really hard, but you can't get away with it later in life. So it's a very, very interesting example that I always use. It's

Yes, even though at face value, you might be performing at your absolute best, what's happening under the hood? And I think it's our responsibility as their performance team. Yes, we need to get a great performance, but we need to make sure everything under the hood is still looked after. I love the saying of, in theory, there should be no difference between theory and practice and practice there is, right? Yeah.

So what's a, just in your experience with your athletes and with your non-athletes, so your regular folks that you coach as well, what's a reasonable adherence? I think 80-20 gets around a lot. Personally, as a company, what we promote is 90-10. 90-10. And the reason that we say that is because that 90% shouldn't be something that's extremely rigid either. It shouldn't be something like, like you said, where we have this meal plan and it's like,

God, I've got breakfast. What's breakfast? Oh, dry eggs. A glass of water. Okay, what do I have for my snack? A dry protein bar. Oh God. You know, it shouldn't be so rigid that, oh man, this is horrible. And then the activity that you're doing, you're going, oh God, my trainer wants me to do a high rock session and I hate high rocks. I just want to go for a walk or I don't know, I want to do gymnastics.

If it's that system, it's going to make it very, very hard. But if you set this up like we spoke about to make it a holistic thing and you work with the person in front of you and you don't just go, hey, there's all the theoretical numbers and you go, let's take this and mold it to this person's lifestyle, their goals, their needs, their wants, their situation, their financial situation. And you create an environment where we go, okay, how can we stick to this 90%?

You can do that in a way where it will happen. It just has to suit their lifestyle. So instead of having boring plain chicken, okay, let's do a yogurt bowl with berries and let's add some protein powder and let's make it exciting. And hey, you've got kids. How can you make a meal as well and get the kids involved? So it's like a family thing and we're enhancing that way. Hey, you don't want to do these crazy high intensity workouts.

Do you like swimming? Oh, let's figure out how we can get you to the pool. Do the kids swim? Let's integrate this. So if you can do all that and make this part of your lifestyle, sticking to it 90% of the time becomes much easier. And we say 10% because in reality, we're always going to have a Christmas lunch.

Oh, yeah. We're always going to have a Thanksgiving dinner. We're always going to have a birthday. There's always going to be something. And you need to be able to give yourself that allowance to not feel the guilt and shame that comes with, oh, my God, I cheated on my diet. I did that. I didn't get the workout in. It's like life happens. Life's busy. You've got things going on.

90% of the time, you're killing it. It's all right. Go have a beer with your dad at the pub. Go enjoy Christmas lunch with your family. It's fine. You're killing it most of the time. Life happens. That's why we like to say 90%, 10% leave it for those little things. 10% is actually a reasonable number. That still gives you many feedings throughout the week that are not off plan. So if I'm tracking that right, 90% would be sort of the gold standard.

probably not where most people are, but that's where you guys are aiming towards. 80-20 is probably enough to get most people pretty good results. 75 is like, we're not getting anything or we're still getting some. Like, where's the bottom end of that spectrum where you're like, okay, if you're here, then you need to change things. And

By changing things, we probably mean systems, your system, things like that, right? We need to change the approach. Would you say like 70, 75 is that cutoff point or is it lower? I'd probably say it's a lot lower. I think if you're doing absolutely nothing and then if you go to do something, that's a lot better than nothing, right? And it's probably just a scale. And I think where people get mixed up is they don't know how to integrate it into their life. But if you're not exercising regularly,

you're not eating any nourishing foods and say, nourishing is going to be different for say an athlete and an everyday person, but let's just say you're just eating whatever you can. There's no thought, there's no logic behind it. You've got other priorities. If you're not doing any of that and then you just go, okay, I need to increase my protein, increase my hydration, and I'm going to aim for 10,000 steps a day. There's going to be big gains to be had from that. And there's, it's like that old saying in jujitsu, if going from the couch to

onto the mats is far harder than going from white belt to blue belt. And if you're at the bottom and you're at absolute ground zero with your health and fitness, going from that to even a white belt in that area is very difficult, but you'll get really good gains from it. And then it's just a scale up. So I was going to say a number. It's tough. I think, yeah, 90-10, very, very idealistic, but something's better than nothing.

Is there any other core principles that you always like to follow, regardless of the person, regardless of the goal? Or do you think we've covered most of those already? I think we could probably give numbers. And I think I'll explain why we give those numbers for these principles.

principles, right? And I think the way I look at it, if someone comes in and again, when we've got elite performers, athletes, it's a bit different because again, we're using this periodized approach like I use with that example. Performance isn't always the healthiest thing. But when we're talking about just the everyday Joe, like you and me, Andy, there's a few things I like to tick off. And I think they're probably universal goals and principles, right? Where most people want to be able to live

into their old age and be healthy, be strong, be able to play with their grandkids and be able, sound of mind enough to be able to hold conversation and then be overall, have a pretty good sense of health, right? Like overall, their ticket's going to be pretty good. And then when I look at that, I go, okay, if that's the goal, I could probably break these down into some pretty low hanging fruit that you probably should pick off

And if you do that chronically over time, it'll set you up for that pretty well. So I'd say like, let's think about if you want to grow old, you want to say, be strong, be able to carry the groceries in, play around with your grandkids, your muscle is going to be really important. And so what's the main thing we need to think about from a nutrition standpoint with your muscle is protein. So I think that's the first and foremost, the easiest thing that we can just say, okay, if I want to write myself a diet and just get started here, let's get a good amount of protein.

Now, Dr. Stu Phillips, not sure if you're familiar with him. Oh, yeah. I know Stu very well. Yeah, Stu. I love Stu's philosophy. Many of you have known him. I love the philosophy Stu has against, not against the RDA, but that 0.8 grams per

per kilogram or 0.3 grams per pound, probably not enough. And I would say as a base, 1.5 grams or about 0.7 grams per pound of protein, great place to start. It's still pretty low. Still pretty low. Great place to start. Easily achievable. I know some folks...

When you hear protein recommendations, a lot of comments I get back are like, oh, that's so hard to get to that number. But the numbers you gave would be not that challenging to get to. Very, very easy to get to. A couple feedings, if not two feedings a day, you could do that. I think the next one that a lot of people ties up them on is just your overall calorie intake. And I guess we can get into the weeds about this a bit more. But-

And we talk about calories in, calories out and energy balance. I like to think of it, the energy availability, which essentially just means how many calories does your body have after it accounts for all the activity that you're doing in your day, your metabolism, everything else? How many calories do you have available to fuel your body?

And it would make sense that you have enough to make sure all your bodily systems are working, your immune system, your lungs, your heart, everything else, your muscles, bones. You have enough calories to support those body systems. And that may sound really simple, but it's quite hard in reality, right? And people will go, okay, well, how do I know what's right for me? And am I doing too much? And we know if you do too much over time,

that can cause weight gain. And then there's metabolic effects that are associated with that. So how do I get that right? So understanding that and going, okay, Andy, these are probably a good range for your calories to be aiming for. You know what? Here we go. Let's add this protein in. The next thing I would say is like, okay, well, let's get some fat in there. We know fat's extremely important for the body, very, very important for your hormonal health. How much fat do we need? I would say lower end that I would take

For my fighters, 0.5 grams per kilo. That's exceptionally low though. Yeah, that's a very standard. Exceptionally low. So I would say even for the average person, you're looking up to 1.5 grams per kilogram. Even then, we've got a lot more wiggle room. And I go, okay, well, let's set that. And then that's your fat that you can put in this theoretical diet that you're looking at. Somewhere between 0.5 and 1.5. At the lower end. And even come up 1 to 1.5. Let's stay around there. And then we go, okay.

And then everyone goes, oh my God, carbs, the demon word carbs. And I go, look, because the first thing that everyone says, they go, oh, carbs aren't essential. If I'm not an athlete, I don't need to be using them. I go, you know what? You're right. But we also don't need to be driving Teslas down the 101, but like they're there and we use them. It makes life a lot easier. The thing that I, first and foremost, I talk about with people when it comes to carbs, I go, okay,

The F word, fiber. I go, carbs are such a great source of fiber. And we know, it's probably one of the only things we know in nutrition that if you have a certain amount of fiber for a certain period of time, for a long period of time, it's hugely beneficial to your health. So no matter what your views are on these carbs, if you're just setting up your bare bones diet,

Use the amount of carbs to get at least 25 to 30 grams of fiber a day. And then we go, okay, well then we've got this really cool structure and that's not even talking about, okay, let's get in micronutrients. You've just got your bare bones structure here. So from there we can go, okay, I've set my calories. I've got an upper and lower limit for protein, fat, depending on what your lifestyle is. You might go, okay, I need more carbs for this activity. I don't, I don't particularly like carbs, whatever, but make sure you're getting this amount of fiber.

And when you do this activity with people, you usually go, okay, Andy, we've

broken down these numbers, all of that, if you do the upper limits of all of these macronutrients, you eat enough carbs to get 30 grams. Let's say we're trying to hit 2000 calories, but then we work it out and we go, Andy, actually with the activity and everything you're doing, you need 2400. You go, you've got an extra 400 calories to play with. And then you'll go, Geordie, what's the best way for me? What do I do here? And I go, well, what do you like? And I go, this is where we can start setting up this 90-10 principle and

Because if I go, you go to me, Geordie, man, I just don't really like eating a lot of fat. Like it doesn't matter, Andy. It doesn't matter, pal. Here's the plan. Get more fat in. Probably that 90% is going to start to slip. But if you say, hey, Geordie, you know what? I'm hitting all these numbers, but I just love having more protein in my diet.

I go, man, we got 400 calories to spare. You know what? Let's bump this protein up. There's a lot of protein you can go for. Yeah. And you can just bump it up and that's how we can make this more relevant to you. But I think using a structure like that just to get your bare bones framework is really useful. And it's really, really useful for

because it doesn't use a lot of diet ideology either. So you can have this conversation with people who love keto, who love carnivore, who love animal-based, and you can make it work for them. And I think that's where you get this adherence and compliance from where, hey, you know what? I don't really care what you love. And it's okay. You can love keto. You can do whatever. Like you said, as long as we're testing this over time, making sure your biomarkers are good, you're performing in whatever it is you need to perform in,

eat whatever way you want, but let's tick these main things off and then let's look to optimize once you've absolutely nailed this. So starting with protein for the most part, having a sense then of total caloric intake, playing with different combinations of fats and carbohydrates to balance the final number. Within that though, probably in the neighborhood of 10 to 14 grams of fiber per thousand calories, which is going to net you 25 to 30, 35 for most sort of people. So if you get those, that sort of

predetermines the kind of carbohydrates you're getting for the most part, right? You're not going to get 30 grams of protein a day in jelly beans. Like that's going to be, or 30 grams of fiber in jelly beans, that's going to be pretty tough. So by default there, you're setting almost a little bit of backdrop for quality of food. So how, at this point, is this is when food choices come in and food quality, or how do you think about that? Yeah, exactly. And it's a

It's a funny area, right? Because I feel like especially nutritionists, dietitians, my position is that whole foods are important. I really do think whole foods are important because... What a stunner. And because I've been fortunate enough to work with these elite level athletes, like I said, Andy, where I've seen, okay, this guy eats mostly whole foods. This guy doesn't. And I've worked with them for six, seven years. And we're testing everything and we're seeing and we're going...

man, this does make a difference. And the reason that we set that up and we say, hey, carbohydrates, let's get 25, 30 grams. Like you said, very hard to get 30 grams of fiber from jelly beans. Yeah, it's tough. Very, very tough. So it sets up this backdrop of, okay, we probably need to include these whole foods. And I'm not saying you need to eat them all the time. A big philosophy that I practice by, and I'll steal these words from Dr. Graham Close from Liverpool John Rawls, is that whole foods first is

but not just food alone. And what that means is that, yeah, we want to choose whole foods, but at some point, the food's not going to be the best option to fit these goals. And I think a great example of this is creatine monohydrate. Whole foods first for sure, but if you're loading creatine monohydrate, do you really want to be eating three to five kilos of steak a day? Tough. Probably not realistic, right? Maybe some people. I would love it. Maybe some people, yeah, maybe for some. But...

that's an example where we go, yeah, whole foods first, but not foods alone. So let's just take that back and let's just have a couple scoops of creatine here. I think whey protein is a great example of that as well, where we go, oh man, like we want to get 30 grams of protein here and

That's a chicken breast, a small chicken breast. And we go, or if I don't want that, if I'm eating seven to eight of them a day, I don't want to get to this much protein. Let's just have a scoop of whey protein here. It just makes it so much easier, especially when it comes to these elite level athletes or just people who train, not even elite level athletes. We work with

what I call professional amateurs, which, and everyone knows them. Everyone has them at the office. You know, the guy way too into triathlon. He comes in, it's the men, what do we call them? The mammals, the middle-aged men in Lycra. Don't get me wrong, big fan and I'm an endurance guy, so I get it. But,

They are training basically like a professional athlete. It's going to be very, very difficult for them to eat 4,500 calories, complete whole foods and achieve the training nutrition goals that we've set out for them. So I really do. I believe that whole foods should make up the bulk of your diet, but there is a time and place for these more processed foods.

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to save $350 off your Pod 4 Ultra. Eight Sleep currently ships to the US, Canada, the UK, select countries in the EU, and even Australia. Again, that's eightsleep.com/perform. Okay, somebody shows up to your door, whether they're the ... I forget the acronym you just used, but the guy who likes triathlons way too much. I love that. No offense, Rob.

The other person, the professional, fine, it doesn't matter. What should I be testing? What should I be paying attention to before I start my fueling program, my performance nutrition strategy? What do I got to have first? So if you're walking in, if we've got the overexcited triathlete comes through the door, Rob's come through the door. Yeah, no offense. So first thing we need to do is let's start with just the calories, right? Yeah.

And Andy, you've probably got access to some amazing metabolic equipment, right? But people like you and me who have access to that is very much the minority. We can't just take the everyday person and say, hey, go get a resting metabolic rate test and we'll figure out exactly how many calories. Is that what you like to do for your folks? If we've got elite level athletes who have access to that and it's not a financial burden to them, which adds to the stress of the whole situation, for sure, I'd love to be able to do that.

How available are those in Australia usually? This is the thing, not very. I would say unless they're a UFC athlete who has access to the Performance Institute, we're probably not going to be able to get them. Some of our New Zealand-based athletes, New Zealand High Performance, if you're close to the Australian Institute of Sport, maybe. But outside of that, very, very difficult to get them done. Okay, because it's pretty easy to get it done here in the States. Yeah. Like, you're generally probably $100, $200, $200.

So that test would be pretty easy to get done. So ideally you'd like to see something like that. Yeah. And I mean, if you can go down the road to the physio or the doctor's surgery and you can get that done for sure, because it's going to give you a pretty good number. Other than that, you've got to use what we call the standardized equations, which range. There's so many of them. And you know, the Harris-Benedict, so many types of them. Basically what they're doing is taking all this population data and going, hey, based on your age, weight, height, and a couple other factors,

This is how many calories we think you should be having per day. And we'll put direct links to all that, of course, everyone in the show knows. But these are free calculations, right? You can Google them. You can go on there and enter a pretty minimal amount of information, typically height, weight, demographic stuff. And it'll tell you then how many calories you're burning throughout the day, roughly. Exactly. And you can just go to Google and first put calorie calculator. To be honest, Andy-

and I'll explain why we do this is that you could use all of these. And when I'm with a very specific audience, say the fighters, the Cunningham equation is something that I think is very, very accurate, but for the everyday person, I don't think that's necessary. If we dial that back to that energy availability, okay, I want to make sure that I'm getting enough calories to support my body, but not too little that we're kind of burning everything down, but not too much that, you know, we're putting surplus and putting our stores away and putting on body fat.

Is that 5%? Is that 12%? Is that 15? What's a rough number there? For body? Either way, surplus or deficit. Like how much are we looking to get? So for, if we wind back and we say, let's just say I'll establish this and I'll just give an equation where I go, take your body weight in kilograms and sorry for everyone in pounds. No, no. Yeah. Divided by 2.2. And then if we just take it in kilograms, if you can times that just by 40,

the number 40, you get a pretty good estimate and go, that's my daily calories. So if I weigh 70 kilograms. Times it by 40, and there we go. And then we've got our calories. And then you go, oh, is that that accurate? And you go, the thing is, unless we're in a controlled metabolic environment, we're never going to know if it's that accurate. The way that you figure out if it's accurate is based on what happens after you put it to use. A little bit of a flag here. We can test resting metabolic rate in our lab. We have a bunch of other technologies we can use.

in other ways to do it. And we still do exactly what you're going to talk about. It doesn't matter. You can take that data that I'll share with you. You can take your body weight in kilograms multiplied by 40. And I'm telling you right now, you're going to be at about the same starting spot we're in. Because it's the next part that matters. And that's exactly what we've seen. I've had so many athletes go get tested at performance centers and comes back and we go...

Did I really need to just send them off to do that when I could have just done this and then spent two weeks trialing this out and narrowing it in? I'll be honest, the only time we do that is if we have really high pressure on

like the first time we've ever worked with an athlete and we have short notice or they've had troubles in the past or like something like that, where it's like, they're really nervous about it. They're scared. There has to be some really additional circumstances going on for us to do that for that exact same reason. I pretty much can,

I know where you're going to be at anyways. And none of that matters until this part. So we don't do it very often, even though it's pretty accessible because the next part. So that's a great starting point. When we go, we go back to your goal. So say if you did want to go into a deficit, hey, Andy comes to me, I want to lose a bit of body weight before we go into the Christmas period. Okay, we need to set a deficit. The rule we use is about 10 to 15% from that number that you get. 2,800 calories is what we calculated a second ago, 70 kilos by 70 months.

multiplied by 40, 2,800, and you want 10 to 15% lower than that number. Exactly. So you're going to cut off 300 calories. Exactly. 320 calories, something like that. Maybe touch more. Yeah. Maybe up to 400 or 500 calories, right? Something in that ballpark. Yeah. And then the next natural question that people go is, hey, I'm exercising a lot. I do this. How do we account for that? And it is important you do account for it. Don't get me wrong. The more you exercise, the more you burn. You do need to...

think about that. I think for most everyday people, if it's just the everyday person coming into the office and we're doing this with, it matters a lot less than say, if we're with an elite level athlete, who's training 25 plus hours a week. And I think a lot of the time, a lot of the struggles I see in my practice with just everyday people, when it comes to weight loss is they

They can't wrap their head around this. Oh, my Apple watch or this says this and my Garmin says I'm burning this much and I'm eating this many calories and I'm just not losing weight. So this is the, I looked at my watch, it told me I burned 700 calories, but somehow I'm not losing weight. Exactly. And the reason I don't love that approach is because I see the mental stress that that causes and

and how disheartened they get with the whole process. I had a gentleman come in and he said, man, I've been doing this. You know, I've got this charity boxing event. I really want to be in good shape for it. He's super motivated. All his friends are behind. He goes, man, I'm like, I can't figure out how to lose weight. I'm only eating 2,800 calories. And this is a big gentleman, fairly inactive. I said, what are you doing? He goes, oh, I'm in the garden. I'm doing gardening. And then I'm on the push bike for 30 minutes. My

my smart device is telling me I need 2,800 calories in a deficit. And I was kind of had to break it to him and go, oh man, like I have professional athletes who are

want to lose more weight than you. And we don't even go like, I wouldn't go into a 2800 calorie. They got to go way less than that to lose weight. And they're doing five times as much activity as what you're doing. So you need to take that with a grain of salt. And this comes back to this point, like we're saying, you can test all of this and there's equations where you can go, okay, we've got this baseline number. I punched in my body weight times 40. I need to account for the activity that I'm doing. Let's times it by 1.4, 1.6, whatever. And

the best way and the safest way to figure out if you're in that deficit, put it to practice, control as many things as you can control in the calories outside, which I'm sure we'll talk about, as well as the calories in the food. And we'll also talk about why it's important to understand truly what you're putting in. And then if you do that consistently, you're

and you lose the weight, you're in the deficit. And then we can monitor from there. And that's by far the most time efficient and accurate way to do it. And it may not be the sexiest answer because people will go, surely Andy Galp and Geordie Sullivan, give me the test I can do. Give me the equation that gets it bang on every time. And it's like, that's not possible. This is the best way. If someone was doing this and they were saying, all right,

I calculated my stuff. It's 2,800 calories. I want to be on a 500 calorie deficit. That puts me somewhere in that 10 to 15 range. So that brings me down there. How do I know if that's working? What am I specifically looking at? Let's say I'm four or five weeks in. Jordi, what should I be paying attention to that'll let me know I'm in too much of a deficit or I'm not in enough deficit?

Yeah. So if you just look at overall average weekly weight loss, which is what you should be doing. So we say when you weigh, make sure you weigh at the same time in the morning, you weigh after you use the bathroom and in the same or lack thereof clothes that you use every week.

So if you can be consistent with your way in. Get good data. Yeah. Very, very good, right? Like get very, very good consistent data as well, because you want to make sure Tuesday morning is my day that I weigh in because what you do on Thursday night will skew what Friday morning is. And if you want to do daily weights, um,

I'm not the biggest fan because we have these daily fluctuations, sodium training, hydration status, food, fiber, exactly. And again, it'll play in that mental side and can be very disheartening. Take the weight.

Same day, we like a Tuesday morning, especially if you're training. Do you like once a week weigh-ins? Once a week weigh-ins, I like it. And then we can take a monthly average and go, okay, if you're four weeks in, how much did you lose? And let's say, Andy, you're on the 500 calorie deficit. From your starting weight, I can then work out a percentage from that weight. How much did you lose per week? I like 500 just as an example here, because if you were in a true 500 calorie daily deficit, you should be on almost exactly a pound a week.

Yeah.

I know it changes based on size, but is that a half a kilo per week? It's a very safe number. I think if you want to go one step forward and really make it for yourself, I go, what is that as a percentage of your total body weight? Because we know that, say, if you're losing more than 2% of your body weight per week, very, very doable. Andy, you and I have done that with many, many athletes, but it's not sustainable.

And we know that because you see this all the time when people go crash dieting and they lose weight too fast. It's easy to get off, but it's not easy to keep off. And what we like to recommend to our guys is if you can lose 0.5, so half a percent to 1% of your body weight per week,

Based on our experience and what we know based on this energy availability model where you're not putting so much stress on your system, you should be able to do that in a way where over this extended period of time, whatever fat comes off your body, you should be able to keep it off. Because all of the problems that come is when you try to do this too fast.

And you and I know this very well working with these fighters when we get, like you said, these short notice fights and you can do it. Someone comes into you, Andy, and says, hey, Andy, I got to lose 25 pounds in four weeks. You'll get that weight off them. Oh, yeah, that'd be very reasonable. And then they'll probably put on 30 pounds afterwards. But the lesson from that is that that same system does apply to the everyday person. If you try to get this weight off too fast, which a lot of people do,

What most likely happens is that you end up putting on more weight. And then it starts this cycle. And the reason for it is you're losing too much weight too fast. So this 0.5 to 1% per week seems to be a very effective number that you can aim for that will help you keep that weight off. Awesome. If you're going more than that, you also start bringing up injury risk, things like that. If somebody doesn't care, say they just have to hit a weight limit

They're six weeks away and they just want to hit a certain number on a scale because they got a photo shoot they're going to do or a family vacation. They're not even an athlete, but they just want to get some weight off in the next four to six weeks. Are you that concerned with them going over 2%? There'll be the rebound effect on the back end. Let's, we gotta be real about that. But I guess what's the higher number you think would be like, all right, we're not worried about performance.

And this is not long-term sustained weight loss, but what's the number you'd think is pretty high but still manageable? Is it still that 2%? Yeah, about 2%. I feel like you've been reading my inbox, Andy, because I had about three brides message me saying this exact thing for the wedding. But yeah, over that 2%, I don't know. But you can do it. You can go up to 3% to 4%. Look, you did, what, 10 kilos with Vulcan in three days or something like that? Yeah, something outrageous. We did, yeah, I think.

Yeah, something close to that. It was outrageous. But the thing is what people need to understand, like what I said at the very, very start, is

You look at these UFC fighters and you probably get all these messages as well. When we do these weight cuts, say with Volk, when we lost, it was something like 26 pounds in 10 days. The majority of that is water weight though. It's not like you're losing the body fat because you just simply don't have the time to be able to do that. It's a long drawn out process. And when we say, if you worked out that number, oh, you'd work it. That's five, 6% per week, that Volk loss. You go, no, no.

90% of that we dehydrated him and that was done in a very controlled environment and it's quite dangerous. And I probably wouldn't put you, Susie, who's about to walk down the aisle to your forever partner. I probably wouldn't put you through that same process. So I'd say upper limit,

Probably about two to three. But yeah, like I said, I prefer to go the sustainability route. We do work with a lot of guys, like even actors who have to get ready for roles and whatnot. And then that dehydration you can do. You just need to know how to do it safely and what limits exist for your body because-

It's very likely that an actor isn't in the same shape and has the same experience as a UFC fighter. So you're probably not going to be able to hit the Volkanovski 26-pound method as well. Yeah, totally. Okay, so going back to our assessment piece, resting metabolic rate calculated one way or the other. The next part of assessment you talked about was really proof in the pudding. Like what is actually working?

And some of the stuff that we pay attention to, I'm sure you do the same, is not only the body weight, but then how's your performance, right? Are you at an acceptable loss of performance, right? So when you go into caloric deficit, you're hoping to still maintain or improve physical performance. You can define performance however you want in whatever realm you're in, but there has to be some range of saying, yeah, we're losing the weight, but we're not getting the training adaptations or the volume or whatever performance

metric you're putting on there. And then the injury rate, right? Outside of that, like I'm pretty okay with it, right? So as long as you're not getting hurt and our performance isn't getting killed and we are losing weight, then...

We're okay. Anything else that you guys really pay attention to? The only other thing, and again, I'm banging on the mental side of this a lot, just because I know it's important, people. How horrible are you to be around? Because that's important, right? Because you might be getting good strength gains in the gym. How horrible are you to be around? Because it's a real thing. You might be getting good gains in the gym. You're getting more shredded. You're whatever else, like you're still sleeping well. Your energy levels are good. But if your mood is up

and down and crazy. Maybe there's some things within the diet we can rearrange to help that. That in itself is not sustainable. And then I think, well, if your goal is to be a terrible human that no one wants to be around, then yeah, for sure. Keep on that path. But we probably got to fix that as well. So that's the only other thing that we do monitor because it does happen a lot where people are like, man, this is just really tough and I just can't handle these mood swings.

Outside of that, I'm sure there are a host of questionnaires you ask and preference and medical history, and there's all that that goes into the equation.

what they like, do they have any allergies, so on and so forth. But is there any other additional assessment stuff that you would really like to do or are we ready to go on to kind of the next part of interpretation? I think the only other thing, and I mean, this is definitely in your wheelhouse, Andy, is just even a basic blood work panel. I really do like getting that only because if people come to us and they go, hey, I do want to lose weight, I'll for sure take you through a weight loss protocol, but I'm

I want to make sure that you're healthy before we do that, because we know if we put you and we get the numbers wrong, which touch wood, we don't. But if we put you in too big of a deficit, we can throw out some of these biomarkers. And at the end of the day, you're probably losing that weight because you want to be healthy. So let's do it in a way that's healthy. And we need to have a way to track that.

So, you know, we aren't too intense with it, but something as simple as a complete blood count and just making sure, say, if we've got a young athlete that's coming in, hey, is your iron levels all good? If we've got someone who doesn't get outside a lot, is your vitamin D levels good? Because we want to make sure we've got all those ducks lined up. So it gives you the best chance when you go on this weight loss regime. Are you going to have all the chips lined up for you to do well? Dan will always say yes.

that people oftentimes want to lose weight to get healthy, but some folks have to get healthy first to lose weight, right? If you are in really tough spot for a number of different areas physiologically, and then you go into a deficit on top of that, you can expect to crash and burn real fast. It's not going to play out well. So that's great to hear. With the blood work, you're probably looking for just kind of major red flags, right? Just are

Are you way off on any metabolic profile, any endocrinologies way off the board? You're just looking for kind of screeners. Yeah, exactly. And again, it's not really my wheelhouse. And if something is really there, we just prefer onto an endo or someone like yourself. But just the big ones, complete blood count, where we're just looking at basic things like your blood lipids. Are we looking at your fasting glucose for guys? Are we looking at your testosterone? Are we checking your B vitamins, your vitamin D status, your thyroid status?

Mostly because they're things if we do retest and you've got access to that and say eight weeks and we go, hey, the weight came off, but hey, look, your blood panel is all over the place. Yeah, you lost the weight, but we're not healthy. That wasn't the goal. So we need to figure this out. How can we do this so you are healthy? When you get those data back to you, how are you using that to specifically construct these individualized plans?

Yeah. So again, it comes back to the goal. So like, let's say, Andy, you want to lose weight and we go, okay, Andy's come in. We've run the numbers. You've gone to a testing center. You got your RMR. Next thing we need to go, hey, Andy, how do we make this work for you? And we'll run through this process again. Okay. Andy needs...

to lose X amount of weight, we've got 2,300 calories. Okay. Andy's goal is that he doesn't want to- Right back to what you were talking about. Start with protein. He doesn't want to lose a lot of muscle mass. He wants to lose the body fat. So to me, I go, okay, then we should probably push that protein a lot higher. His resistance training, 2.5 grams, probably is a minimum, I would say for Andy. Okay. Let's look at the fat. Hey, Andy-

what's your preference with food? Do you like fat? They'll be like, oh yeah, it's all right. I'm not too big on it. Okay. Let's make sure you're getting some natural healthy fats here. We're setting that about one gram and then you go, okay, Andy, let's see how your intake is. What's your relationship with carbs? Do you like taking in carbs? And that's how we're setting this up. What I generally get guys to do though, because this is a big part of it as well, is I say, hey, Andy, just before we get this started, track two days of food for me. Just track two days of food. One, I want to have an idea of you

your style of eating? Do you have a preference for when you eat and whatever? And does that align with your goals? I've got no issues with

fasting, eating windows or whatever. You can do whatever works for you, but does that align with your goals? That's what we need to make sure. And then when we're working out these numbers, are the foods that you're putting in, all the foods you have access to, are they going to align with this? Or do we need to make some shifts? Or is there some education, basic education on the food that you're eating that you need to know to be able to do this? And that's a big one that

probably don't spend enough time on. I think just in general, people go into the weeds of do this fasting protocol, do this specific type of fat, whatever, but just basic education on what is in the food that you're eating. I'd say eight times out of 10, when we get people to track,

they can, we go through this with them. They go, oh man, I didn't realize I was having this much fat. I didn't realize I was having this much sugar. I didn't realize I was doing this. And they go, oh, what type of foods are you having? You go, oh man, did you realize that tiramisu, even though it's a protein, tiramisu has all of these calories and they go, oh my God, no. So just starting with that baseline education, really, really important. And

I'm definitely not a stick. Like I was a weight category athlete for many, many years. So I understand when you're strictly like tracking your food and you're watching every gram, I understand what that can do to your mind. And I've worked with so many athletes who have problems with that. But in saying that, it is a very important tool to have. Very, very important tool that at your baseline, you know what is in the food that you're eating. Have you...

noticed frequency of feeding? Personally, I like high frequency. You don't have to have that general population for weight loss, for muscle, like there's it in there. But for your high performance folks, whether these are your athletes or you're just people who are competing and training a lot, have you noticed any tendencies with frequency or would you say,

The same is true in general population. Like, hey, these people can eat one meal a day or two meals a day and just be fine. And what have you noticed just in your coaching practice? I've definitely noticed with the athletes, very, very difficult to achieve the training nutrition goals, which I'm sure we'll get into. Definitely. If we're just doing one meal a day or if we're eating...

you know, doing the 16 hour fast every single day. If you're fasting, find it very, very difficult to achieve just these pre, interim, post training, especially most athletes, morning session, afternoon session, if not a midday session in there. So if you're fasting for two of those sessions, you're probably not putting the fuel in it. And at the end of the day, people say, yeah, but you're getting in at night and you go, yeah, for the most part, you're getting it, but that's maybe like

70% of it, but then let's look at you're an elite athlete. We want to get these adaptations. We want to get every percent that we can get, and we need you to be able to fuel so that you can do the volume of training at the intensity that we need you to do. And if you're going into this session fasted, maybe you can get through the morning session. Maybe that big meal at night gets you through the morning session, but when you get to that midday session, you're going in depleted.

and you're not getting the adaptation that we want. And then it's very hard to refuel you in the two, three hours that we have before that evening session. So the frequency for our athletes, way more often. And it's a lot more. And when we go through it, you'll see it. It's before every training, you're clustering these little strategies around training. When we look at everyday people, especially when we look at weight loss goals,

In my practice, I find there's two types of people, the ones that really love fasting and the ones that don't. And so the guys that like fasting, it does work. And I think it's a great way for them to control their overall calories and say they have more flexibility if they're doing, say, a 30-minute gym session after work instead

That works great for their mornings. Yeah. But for the other person that may not work, especially we work and I'm sure you do as well. Lots of CEOs, busy professionals where their morning is their most by far the productive time. And for most people, I feel when you wake up from nine to about midday, your most productive hours and you're doing the meetings, you're doing creative work.

We find that if you're fueling that properly with these more frequent meals, you're just better in those areas because we're getting glucose to the brain. You're doing all these other things. So there's two types of people, the ones that love fasting and the ones that don't. I find the people who like fasting, it's an easier way to control calories. More often than not, it also, and I think this is a big psychological side of it,

Oh man, I just survived till 2pm, pat on the back. Well done. I just won the first battle. Okay, now I can go do this. It's almost like this self-fulfilling, okay, we've got this type thing. And that's a big part of it. And if that's you and that works for you and that allows you to, again, be sustainable with this weight loss and your overall dietary habits and you can get that 90%, go for it.

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Let's jump into, I actually want to go through your fueling strategy because we went through that. You wrote on there that the goal was somewhere between six to eight grams per kilogram of body weight for carbohydrates. Does that sound about right where you want? And then you wanted about 60 to 90 grams of carbohydrate, again, in the three to four hours before, and then an additional 30 grams, you know, 30 to 60 minutes before. Yeah.

I know it's individual. Some, I'm sure you have athletes that do better on less carbohydrates, some that do better on more, but why those numbers? Is that pretty common where you'd like to start? Are you just kind of personally a little bit of a weirdo with carbohydrates? How did you come up with these numbers? I think I'm definitely a little bit of a weirdo, but there is some logic behind this.

Easiest way, I guess, just quick recap on exercise metabolism, how our body uses fuel, because it's important to understand why do you choose these numbers? Why do you hit this? So when we're exercising, our body has three options. So we've got three options. Think of it like buckets. So we've got this big bucket of fat around our body. So we all have fat around and we have a lot of it. So our body has about, depending on your size and body composition, about a hundred thousand calories of fat there that we can use as a fuel source.

Then we also have another bucket, which we call our glycogen levels. And all glycogen is a stored carbohydrate. So we store it in our muscles and we store it in our liver. So in our muscles, we've got about 400 grams, depending on size, that's about 1600 calories. In your liver, you've got about 100 grams or so, so 400 calories. And that's of your glycogen. And then all through our body, I like to call it the highway of the body, is

is our cardiovascular system, our circulatory system, which is our blood. And we have a little bit of glucose in there. So, but we don't have much. We only got a few grams. So let's say about, yeah, 16 calories or so. So the goal is when we're exercising and if we think about, okay, what happens when we exercise? So at rest, we're burning mostly fat. At lower intensity exercise, we're burning mostly fat. And then as the intensity of that exercise comes up, our body starts to rely more on carbohydrates and

And there's a crossing point and it changes for each person, but we call it the crossover point. At about 60 to 65% of your VO2 max, you're predominantly going to be burning carbohydrates. So that's going to change for everyone, but about that point. And I think it's important to explain to people before we get into why you choose these numbers is

When you actually sit down and do the maths of, okay, well, 60 to 65% of my VO2 max, maybe not everyone has access to testing to go get their VO2 max. If you can just do some simple equations, again, you just do a simple equation, say 220 minus your age, you get to this number. If you work out what that range is, and then you find out where that 60% is. Yeah, you're talking about heart rate.

Yeah, you're talking about heart rate. So if you're 40 years old, 220 minus 40 put you at 180. So in theory, your maximum heart rate should be in the neighborhood of 180 beats per minute. So what is 60% of that? Yeah, from your resting. And say your resting is like 60 to 180, whatever. For most people, that 60, 65% sits around 145 to 150.

And I only say that because I think when we talk about, okay, I'm going to go into a fat burning exercise. They think that, okay, like my heart rate has to be like resting. Yeah. And you go, no, no, like that is like only a bit more than resting by the time. And I'm sure you're pretty fit to Andy, my zone too. And you know, I've spent years as an ultra marathon. I've got a pretty good aerobic base in my zone too. If I'm at one 45, that's my zone too. Technically.

But then I look at that and I do the math and I go, oh man, I'm getting very close to that 60% of my VO2 max. So even on my low and slow runs, I'm still using quite a lot of carbohydrates to fuel that activity. Do you happen to, there was data actually, but do you know what the caloric or the carbohydrate expenditure is on like an Olympic marathon?

In other words, like what percentage of their energy is coming from carbohydrates during a, you know, two and hour and 10 minute marathon. Do you have the number? It's well over 80%.

I know that when you look at Kipchoge and these guys, they're operating anywhere between 90 to 93% of their VO2 max. Which means they're burning almost exclusively carbohydrate for the entire marathon. Yeah. And the reason- It's certainly not a fat burning exercise. Yeah. And the reason I say that, I think it's important to preface it because some people look at what you just read out and they go, man, that's a lot of carbs that

But then we go, Hey, like, let's look at these buckets of fuel that we're using when we're exercising. And so for that example, so that's a high rock session. Like I said, at the start, you do one kilometer run and I'm a pretty all right runner. So I'm running at a pretty good pace.

And then my partner is very good at the machine. So I'm trying to keep up with him as well. So we're going quite hard. Like your heart rate is getting up there. I know for a fact that, okay, I only have a finite amount of the bucket that has glycogen and even finite amount in the blood glucose. And I've got lots of fats. Basically negligible blood glucose. Yeah, exactly. But then you go, okay, I've got all these calories from fats. But if we look at the intensity that you're working at,

I'm probably, I'm going to be using them, but not that much. So now I'm stuck with this smaller bucket of glycogen in here. And what happens then is that, and I think this is important for the everyday person. When you work out these numbers, just say you're doing moderate intensity exercise, your liver glycogen can probably last you about a hundred minutes or so, moderate exercise. And then your muscle glycogen, moderate exercise, maybe if you're lucky, two hours.

maybe if you're lucky, and then your body's never going to let you get all the way down. And if anyone's ever run a marathon or done a half marathon and they've heard the word hitting the wall, I don't know, Andy, have you ever experienced this? No, personally not. But we have seen people...

Within probably 300 to 200 yards of the finish line of a marathon and they can't take a step. Yeah. So I've seen the wall hit. It's horrible. I remember very distinctly the first time this happened to me and I completely stuffed up my fueling, hence why I have plans like this now. Yeah. Completely stuffed it up. The only way I can explain it is it's horrendous. Yeah. And it's horrendous for a way that you know you can keep going but

But for whatever reason, your body just does not want you to. And you probably know a lot more about central fatigue and the systems of fatigue. The reason why it's important that you fuel properly is because when this bucket, this glycogen bucket gets low, and for reasons that we don't completely understand yet either, when that gets to a certain level...

you fatigue really, really hard. And mentally, exercise gets very challenging. And anyone riding a marathon, and you usually see this, we call it the 30-kilometer mark of doom at a marathon. If you haven't fueled properly, by the time you've burned through that liver glycogen, that muscle glycogen, usually about 30 Ks,

any marathon in the world, people are just falling like flies. Yeah. It's because this muscle glycogen gets down. Yeah. So then bringing all that back and we go, okay, for this event that we're doing, what's the goal? So I look at this and I go, okay, in this event, I could probably run this and I'm probably going to be operating for just over an hour. Okay. Got about an hour. Got about an hour. But then I go, okay,

I'm not doing this as a walk in the park. I'm a pretty competitive guy. And there was two sets from my team and we had a wager, whoever wins gets the Christmas bonus. So I had some pretty big motivation to get in there. And so we were going. So well up to that 85% of your VO2 max we're working at. So at that point, you're just ripping through this bucket of glycogen. So you're ripping through. So then you go, okay, how do I best fuel that?

How do I best fuel that activity when I go in? I go, well, it makes perfect sense if that's the intensity that I'm working at. There's the volume of about an hour, which we said at moderate intensity, I've got about two hours. But if we're really going hard, we're going to be churning through that glycogen. And we know that when that hits a point, not empty, we don't completely, let's just say even 20% from empty glycogen.

I'm going to be done. I'm going to have to wind it back. So let's do our best to avoid that from happening. And that's essentially what performance nutrition is. And that's what that plan is, is I go, okay, the day before, because I know that when I eat all these carbohydrates, it takes about 24 hours for it to get in my muscle, to get in my liver, so that when I sit at that start line, I've got that fuel ready.

And so that's what that plan was the day before six to eight grams per kilogram was all about. Okay. For this just over an hour that I'm absolutely going crazy on this event too crazy because I wanted that Christmas bonus. And then what can I do to put my body in the best position? So that's the day before eating. That's where we get the six to eight, six to eight grams per kilogram. Okay. Before we go on to the, uh, three to four hours before a quick question on that regarding your food choices, uh,

tiramisu, oats, lobster rolls, a sports drink. Why not have higher quality foods? Why are we having so much candy and sugar and crap and garbage in there?

Where do these food choices come from? Very difficult to get that amount of carbohydrates if I was just to eat, say, quinoa and brown rice. Really tough. Really tough. And to be fair, I feel like with even that type of approach, I'd say still an 80%. I actually bought one of the dieticians from my team, and he's a phenomenal chef, and I made him cook for us, which was great. And he makes all of those yogurt bowls, the tiramisu, all made from natural Greek yogurts and all these great things.

I was saying that as pejoratively as possible. Yeah. And the thing is, but even when I'm doing that, you need to get the sports drink. You need to have a little bit of candy because at the end of the day, when I go and I go to bed, I go, did I get the right amount of carbs in so that when I go to that start line, I've got it in. And Andy, the other part too, is that this has got to go through my 30 feet of digestive system. And then I've got to run an event where the toilet's over here and there's cameras everywhere. I don't want to have to be running awful.

knock wood that something bad digestive happens. So then your choices as well, if I'm having these quinoa bowls, these brown rice, lots of fiber, that's going to have a digestive issue. Well, let's do some quick math here. What are you in the neighborhood of what's 60 kilos in body weight? That's 70. 70. Okay. So 70 times seven, we'll make it that easy. We'll split the difference between six and eight. So seven times seven, you're looking in the neighborhood of, you know,

How many grams of carbohydrates are you hitting? 500 grams? About 500, yeah. You're going for 500 grams of carbohydrate. If you bring along for the ride with 500 grams of carbohydrates of rice and potatoes, you're probably going to be looking at 60 grams of fiber, more maybe? Yeah. Like that's going to be doubling your normal input, right? So you're going to have a real, real fiber issue to your point. So it just...

This is not what you'd be eating to work. You probably didn't eat six to eight grams per kilogram today for our conversation, but this is fueling for the 24 hours for a purpose. It's always about context, right? So I think one of the things that sets the work that you do with performance nutrition apart from day-to-day nutrition

It's understanding that there's not just bad foods. It is what's the pro, what's the con of the food, and then how do we use these things? Not just the calorie count, not just the macronutrient, but what's the fiber content? What are the other constituents of it? And how do they land in my stomach versus fuel my performance and all those other factors? So these distinctions are critically important. So you hit easily 500 grams of carbohydrates on that day. Um,

One point that has actually come to my attention here, like I don't want people to get too bogged down in these numbers. These are your numbers for your body for one. It's the concepts that I want to get me to, right? If you're feeling for a similar type of event or expenditure, this is the type of strategy you would go to, right? So I know these exact numbers won't apply to many people.

Not many of you are doing this competition, but it doesn't necessarily matter, right? It's the strategy here of I've got an all-day weekend tournament I'm going to go do, right? It would be the same answer, right? So 500 grams of carbohydrates for you. What do you think your protein was on that 24-hour period? Do you know? Probably ended up about 2 grams, 2.5 grams I think I hit. So probably about 140. So pretty high still. Yeah, pretty good amount. Pretty high. And then you fill in the rest with fat, which is sort of reasonably low. Yeah.

Whole foods for the most part, but a couple of other little bonuses and stuff in there. And you still got, again, rice and lamb and bananas and honey and all the stuff's in there. Okay. So that's the day strategy. As we reiterated, that's not your normal eating strategy. That was your fueling for performance. Pretty blinded if you're eating that every day. Yeah. Motivated to get there.

We're going to come back to the gut. Training the gut is very important, and I'd love to hear more about that. And we're going to contrast this, by the way, in one second against another example that I have of fueling a very different way. But

Why the 60 to 90 grams three to four hours before? Yeah. So let's go back to like these bucket analogy, right? So we've got the bucket, big bucket of fat, but we're operating this intensity. We're going to use some, but not all of it. We're going to use mostly this glycogen bucket. But like I said before, cardiovascular system, that's your circulatory system. That's your blood is just pulsating.

passing oxygen and nutrients to every cell in your body, even when you're exercising. And one of those nutrients that it's passing is glucose and it can pass it to the working muscle. Now we know this, that in your muscle. So this bucket over here of the glycogen that's inside your muscle, and that's going to start working as soon as you get going. And like we said before, when that gets down to a certain level,

that's not a good time when you hit the wall, not a good time. One of the strategies that you can use to delay or spare that glycogen depletion is you can top up your blood sugar. Even though it's not a lot, like we said, it's only about four grams or so, not very much going around in there. But if I can put in 60 to 90 grams, and then I'll explain why we choose that amount too. The theory is, is by the time that breaks down,

we get that extra glucose in our blood that can go to our working muscle and our muscle can help use that. And that takes the burden off using this glycogen bucket. That takes the burden off. So now I've got two types of fire in the furnace because I'm operating this high intensity. It's coming down and I'm playing the game of as soon as it gets down here, we're not going to have a good time. So I need to slow down the rate of which it gets down here. The reason we say 60 to 90 grams is that

When you eat food, it doesn't just go straight into your body. We have to put it in our mouth. We have to chew it, has to go down our esophagus. It goes into our stomach and then it has to pass into our small intestine. The first little part of our small intestine is where it will cross over into our blood.

Now, the way that our body crosses that over, we have one type of receptor that'll take one type of carbohydrate, which is called glucose. And then we have another type of receptor, which will take fructose, so fruit sugar over. And we know it's in the way I describe it is imagine having a driveway and you've got one car park and it's a one door driveway. Very hard to get a second car in there, right? You have a two door one, you can get two in. So that's the theory is that if we can do that,

about 60 grams through one driveway, we know we can get about 30 grams through the next driveway. And so we're not backing up that one driveway, which means less GI distress, more efficiency that we can get that in, peaks our blood sugars, spares that glycogen. Happy days. Let's race for a Christmas bonus. Why...

Does it cause GI distress if it doesn't get out of there? It's backing up, right? And what we call glucose is what we call osmotically active. And it's just a fancy word saying it attracts water. So if it's in our intestine there and it's pulling water in,

That's not a good idea when we're running, sloshing around. The idea with these carbohydrates is we want to get them through our body, into the blood, to the working muscle as fast as possible. If they're hanging around, it's not a good time. The average number that we'll throw out in exercise physiology is that rate of getting glucose out of the stomach and into the circulation is about 60 grams, right? That's sort of the max for glucose. Mm-hmm.

But because fructose has independent receptors and their rate is about half of that, about 30, what you're saying then is if you add and you did say 90 grams total, but you did it all from glucose,

You wouldn't be able to get all that through. That's the one car analogy, right? You would get backed up. So 60 of that would get out, but those remaining 30 would stay in. And they would continue in the GI tract, which would then pull water into it. And now you've got diarrhea, right? That's what's going to cause it. So by switching that type of the glucose out to fructose, it'll be able to cross over through those independent receptors, therefore not leaving a bunch of sugar in your stomach, pulling fluid in and causing the GI distress, right? So-

Wonderful example, actually, they're taking direct science stuff and putting it right into practice and resolving problems there. On that note, then you go 30 grams, 30 to 60 minutes before. You've already just smashed...

450 calories or grams, rather calories, grams throughout the day. You put another 60, 90 and why the 30 minute top off? Because I really wanted to win this Christmas bonus. But again, if we think about it, okay, the driveway, like you said, we've put it through the receptors. Hopefully that's going around in the blood by then. What I can do then right before, and we tell this to a lot of our endurance guys, right before you go to the start line,

Grab a gel, put it in because what you can do then is you can start trickling in some more blood sugars to go and spike it up and then that's available as well. So we know that we've got enough time for that one that was 90 minutes to pass through our stomach, get into our gut, hopefully be in the blood supply. It's going round. Hey,

They're clear now. Those receptors are clear. Let's get a little bit more in. And then the idea behind that is the more I can get in there, the less I have to use from my storage over here. Because once this storage goes down, kaput. It's a hard time to keep that intensity of work. So we can just make the most of that science knowing we can get that receptors working and we can get that food through. And then we can just sneak a little top up in before we start. Okay. Amazing there.

Two questions, one regarding the gut and how do we get people to this level if they even need to be. But before that, really quickly, what were those actual food sources for the three to four hour period?

Prior as well as the 30, 60 minute. What were you eating exactly? Do you remember? Examples. Yes. You guys don't have, do you have pikelets here? I always say this to Americans and they're like, okay, they're mini pancakes. It must be an Australian word. Yeah. So mini pancakes essentially. So which is predominantly our glucose sauce. Yeah. Cut that up. And then we just have a banana on top and then we've got. So whole food here. This is your third, three to four hour. This is the, yeah, yeah, exactly. Beforehand. Then we've got a little bit of honey on top.

Okay. Very, very easy. Super easy to digest. Super easy. And there's a lot.

of carbohydrate. We're getting about 90 gram in there. It's very light. It digests very fast. Probably five grams of fiber in there? Yeah, not much at all. Very, very low fiber. And it's quite tasty too. So it's like you can put it down. And because I've done this for years, right? I've done it for years, training early in the morning. It's hard to eat in the morning. I don't care how often you do it. You can train it, but it is tough. And doing things like that where it's a low volume, it's a low fiber and it's

It's quite tasty, makes it so much easier just to put it down, especially when you come down. Oh God, I've got to do this. I've got to stretch. I've got to do everything else. Very, very hard. If you've got a big dense meal, you've got to put back. So if you can keep it light, something like that's so, so easy and it ticks those two boxes. So it's super simple. Yep. And then what did you have for that last 30 minutes? Sports drink.

sports drink, just for two reasons. Make sure that you're well hydrated before you start and it gets those extra carbs in. We don't need to be pushing that receptor where we're going to the upper limit, where we're going to the 60, that's just 30. So we can just sneak him on in there. And any sports drink, certainly not the non-zero ones or the zero calorie. We definitely want the calories at this point. This is the entire idea. At that point, you want to be looking at just 30 grams. 30 grams of glucose, not going to

depend as much if it's glucose, fructose. If you can just get 30 grams there, avoid the non-sugar ones because that's exactly what you want. You want the sugar. When you start getting past, in an example of an hour, you're not really going to be running out of body fat. You have no chance, right? This is, can you handle the suffering? Can you fuel? When you get past a couple of hours, when you get past many hours, now you have an entirely different challenge on your hand. So someone like Ned, who I'd love for you to share what he did,

Challenges start to come. And now training the gut starts to really matter, right? Because we've got to handle there. So-

If none of that made sense, friends, Jordy's going to explain it to us here and I'll make sure those questions do clarify. But who is Ned Brockman and what in the world did you do with him? And oh my gosh, that's one of the craziest things I've ever seen in my life. Yeah. Ned's one of the craziest guys I've ever met in my life. And he's 25. That's the craziest thing. That probably explains it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So Ned Brockman is a Australian ultra runner. And what he did two years ago is basically ran from Cottesloe Beach, which

which is in Western Australia, right across Australia to Bondi Beach, which is on the other side. So he ran, what, left to right across Australia? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Through the middle of it? Through the middle. And if you know Australia, you've ever been, 99% of us live on the coastline. And in the middle, there's a whole lot of nothing. And he ran through a whole lot of nothing. And it took him about 43 days. And I guess...

43 days. 43 days. How many kilometers was he running a day? I think he averaged about, he was aiming for 100 by the end of it. He was probably just shy of that, around 90 or so. Unbelievable. Yeah. A day. And that's what his first challenge. That kind of made Ned Brockman become the guy he was. And he goes, you know what? How am I going to top this? And there was an old record set by a very, very famous Greek ultramarathoner where he ran 1,000 miles in 10 days. Wow.

A thousand miles in 10 days. Yeah. So yeah, a hundred miles a day for 10 days. Crazy feet, crazy, crazy, crazy feet. Ned took it upon himself and said, you know what? I'm going to give this a crack. I'm going to train for this and I'm going to give it a crack. So what Ned did in October this year is there's a big event down at Sydney Olympic Park, a

Just doing laps, Sydney Olympic Park. And we ended up going. We didn't hit the record, but it was one of the craziest things I've ever been a part of. Ended up going for about 12 and a half days, running around in a circle around Sydney Olympic Park. In case you're half asleep, he ran 1,000 miles in 12 and a half days

on a track. Okay. So I got a bunch of questions on this. Well, ultimately we're going to get back to is how the fueling strategies change for these. But I think, I think it's important to talk just a little bit more about what net actually did here. Cause I, I'm just genuinely curious. So, uh,

You answered one of my questions, like how much was he sleeping? And it's about eight hours. Was he sleeping right there in the track or was he going home? Or like what happened? He was, I don't think there'd be one night he got close to eight hours, to be honest. It would probably be close anywhere from two to maybe five if we needed it. Halfway through, we needed to call it a bit early. But again, like anyone who's ever done any, they don't have to be an ultra endurance athlete, just a tough workout, pretty hard to sleep afterwards. Everything's going. No way. So yeah, probably averaging between two to five at a good night's sleep. And-

Let's be honest, it's not going to be deep REM restful sleep. So he's doing that. But then running wise, the goal was a hundred miles a day, which is 160 kilometers. What it ended up being more realistic once it all played out, ended up being about 120 kilometers per day. And you're just out there for 16 hours. There's toilets set up at the venue, two toilets. So if he needs to veer off...

We've got a tent set up where his sports medicine team, so myself, his physio, his other crew are all in there. We're constantly making food. He's getting physio attention. We're changing shoes. We're addressing issues. We're doing strapping, whatever else. And we're inside the Olympic stadium. So for a couple hours each day, all the public's allowed in to come watch him. And then we've got access to change rooms, which at the end of each day, Ned comes off the track.

He gets on a wheelchair. We wheel him back in under the stadium into the change room. He eats his food. He has a shower. He gets wheelchaired to bed. He sleeps or sleeps for however many hours we've got. Wakes up at 5 a.m. Back on the wheelchair. Wheelchaired back out to bed.

The track gets on, starts going 6 a.m. Doesn't want to take a step that doesn't count towards the 100 miles. Exactly. Or the 1,000 miles, right? Exactly. Can't blame him. 100 miles is a long way to run. Like if you think you just run a 10K, which is like six miles, for the average person, you're pretty sore after that. So imagine running 10 times that and then doing it for 12 and a half days. So even after the first one, you're feeling it. And even after that, and I say this to everyone, right?

who gets into ultra marathon, the pain never goes away. You just get better at dealing with it. So even if I'm running a hundred mile race, it still hurts after 20 kilometers, like your knees and everything. Still, your body is just probably a bit stronger and you're just better equipped to deal with that. So Ned would have been hurting from day one, even halfway through day one, even a quarter way through day one, it starts hurting and the body starts breaking down.

The other thing that we always say with ultra endurance events, especially not just a feeling, but particularly from a feeling perspective is that everyone loses an ultra endurance. Oh yeah. You just have to slow down the rate at which you lose so we can get to the finish point in whatever time you need to get there. And that's what the game was with Ned. How much time did you have to prepare him? Did you guys do anything or was from your perspective, was it just show up race day and then just try to keep him going? No.

No, God, no. I would have said no if they called me in last minute. We probably had...

It was a good amount of time. I'd say well over six months of dedicated training just for this. Okay. You had a long time then. Long time. And we needed a long time to be honest, because Ned's young, he's 25. So there was a lot of things we needed to do just from basic nutrition. Like I spoke about with the tracking and going through and understanding food, I had to go through all of that with him. So I needed him to understand what it is that was in the food that he liked eating and what

If this is your goal to do this, this is the type of foods that you need to eat. And this is the way you need to eat to be able to achieve that. Ned also, young guy, like 25, he had all these preconceptions about food as well. And then looking a certain way, we basically had to sit down and go, man, like this is about performance. This is an insane thing you're going to put your body through. Ditch that. We've got to just think about optimal fueling and getting you through that. So he was really good though. Like Ned...

Ned, I think is one of those guys is that he's elite in a lot of areas, but he's very elite in how he takes on information and then how he applies it. And that's not just his nutrition, but that's with his physio, his strength conditioning, his run coach, everyone. And he's really, really good. And over that six months, we were able to one, establish a really, really good daily routine.

eating plan, which is important if we come back to that first point, that energy availability, making sure that he's not in a point where he's in what we call low energy availability, which then causes something we call REDS, relative energy deficiency syndrome, which can cause all sorts of problems, bone fractures, illness, gut problems,

Don't hormones go into zeros exactly so with last thing you want when you're getting ready to run a thousand miles Yeah, so that was first how can we get these calories up here? And then it's okay dietary control like you said we want to get good quality diet because the stress you're putting on your body through this training period is through the roof and he also had to get used to this very bizarre sleep schedule where

Every so often he would do a training session where you'd wake up, bang 20 Ks out, go back home, bang 20 Ks out four hours later, go back home six hours later, bang 20. And it was through the night because we would be running through the night. So he had to get used to that as well. So all of a sudden there's all these additional stresses that we need to take into account.

And so it was getting his day-to-day diet right. He wasn't that big of a carb guy beforehand. And that was one of the big things we worked on was, man, like if you want to get through this event and we'll talk about why they're so important and use this bucket analogy, but you've got to get very, very comfortable with consistently eating these carbohydrates. And that was a big challenge that we had to do. The reason we did that is because we needed to train his gut to be able to handle that.

And I think we'll go into train the gap because I think it's very, very important. And it's this concept that it's, it comes from competitive eating and I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with the hot dogs, chicken wings, you know, when they just, and they just smack it back. Right. And you look at that and you go, how does that happen? And us as ultra endurance athletes look at that and go, yeah, that's seems really important because that's essentially what we do in these races. Like an ultra endurance race is essentially a moving picnic, right?

You need to be able to just keep eating because there's no way you're putting in the amount of fuel that you're burning. So with Ned, we're going, okay, man, this strategy that we've come up with for you involves you pretty much every, between 15 and 30 minutes, putting something in your mouth. And you're going to have to do that for 16 hours every day for 12 and a half days.

So that's a lot of pressure and stress going through your gut. Your gut can handle it. But if you and me, Andy, right now, we go, hey, let's go down to...

the running track down the road, we'll grab some Chipotle and grab some burritos. You and me would be throwing up on the side because our guts just can't handle it. It's not trained for it. So that was a big focus. Okay, Ned, it doesn't matter if you're going for a 5k run or if you're going for a 50k training run, every opportunity you're moving is an opportunity for us to train this gut. So I need you taking on certain fuels. I need you taking on carbohydrates. In an event that long,

that goes for 16 hours a day for 12 and a half days is a bit more than just simple carbohydrate gels every 15 minutes. That would feel terrible. We need to be getting in whole meals and we need to be getting in protein. We need to be getting in fat as well. So we were making sure that Ned was stopping and getting pies and meals and chocolate milk and things that he could just get used to. Okay, I just ran 30 kilometers. I need to stop, eat a full meal and now I need to keep going.

And then we'd review how did it go? What worked? What didn't work? Oh, the liquid carbs don't sit too well. Okay. Let's change this up. Okay. These electrolytes weren't too great. We need to really dial this in. And the thing is when it comes to the big day, you do all this prep and anyone who does an ultra marathon will appreciate this is that you can have the best plan in the world, but

And then what's that saying from Tyson? Everyone has a plan to get punched in the face. And when you're in an ultra marathon, everyone gets punched in the face. Yeah. But as his performance nutritionists, I can be confident that we can still pull it off if we've nailed the principles. So even if there's great plan that I spent all these hours conducting coming up, I go to offer him the food. He looks at it and goes, nah, I go, oh, great.

that's okay so long as his gut can handle the food that I want to put in and I've got options to give him which is essentially what ended up happening so we spent all this time one making sure that he had enough calories throughout a day get through relatively injury-free I'll say relatively because no one's getting through that training for completely injury-free not being sick was a big one and then being able to recover from the training and we talk about a lot you know

Recovery is, I would argue more important than the training. That's where the adaptation occurs. If we're trying to get this guy's body ready to be able to run a thousand miles, he needs to be able to do the training for him to be able to do the training. He needs to recover properly for him to recover properly. He needs to eat properly. So huge, huge effort just to get him there. It was almost like an ultra marathon before we even started, but it was a, it was an experience. As a doctoral student, uh, I had a friend who was now, uh,

We were in a lab that had a long history of exercise physiology and sports nutrition. So Dave Kostel, who did a lot of the preeminent work in the 1970s and 80s on what carbohydrates are and fats for fueling and a lot of the initial work with

Frank Shorter and Steve Prefontaine and some of these endurance people. So like I kind of came through one of these hallmarks of legendary sports nutrition. Despite that, as doctoral students, not even grad students, as doctoral students, my friend was running his first marathon, I think. And I remember us sitting kind of in these carrels and a bunch of us were talking about, you know, fueling and when and what and how much before and exactly the types and things like that. And he had this whole plan.

And we were, I want to say we were like three weeks out from his race. And I remember just asking him, man, just like curiously, like, well, what have you been doing in your training that worked really well? And he just went like dead silent. And he looked right at me and he's just like, I haven't tried any of it yet. Oh, no. And I was like, so you're about to go into your first marathon having not tried any of the strategies that we have now been like designed for him. It wasn't a part of our lab. It was just like a side thing.

And that was another reminder to me, and I was coaching athletes already at the time. But I was just like, how in the world would you come up with an idea and then try to go put it into practice without ever trying? So when you're talking about how like the strategy you come up with, it means nothing until you get out there. I mean, geez, six months of trial and error with him, and then you still had to change it mid-race. Anyone who's done anything like this would say, yeah, if you told me otherwise, I'd say you've never done it. Because you'll have that pretty consistently. So-

I think what I probably should have done is taken your high rocks, taken Ned, and then put something more in the middle, right? Because these are both very extreme, which is fun, right? I actually like this a lot. You have an hour competition, you have a 12-day competition. If you were to take somebody doing more of a classic, say, three to five hour thing, right? This is the amateur person doing a marathon or an Olympic triathlon, something like that, in that mid-range competition.

The concepts are still going to be the same here, but it will be slightly different, right? In your case of your hour competition, you didn't have to worry really about training your gut in terms of in competition, right?

Do you remember what you had in terms of fueling in that race? Or were you kind of just like taking drinks of water? No, I didn't have anything. Right. Purely because I knew, you know what, and probably overdone it to be fair. And I think I was just doing it proof of concept. Whatever. But I had all the fuel. Like I knew the buckets were full. And the thing is, like I felt great. And there were guys in there who definitely did not feel great. But I think it's an important thing as well, Andy. And I always try to like make this point as well when we talk about fueling for performance and everything and stuff.

So say if you and I went for a run and went for a 10K run and are you a runner, Andy? I don't know. No. Okay, good. This makes this example a lot better. So I've been running for years and I've done a lot of it, so I'm pretty conditioned for

for running, right? So if we go for a 10K or a six mile run and we say, hey, Andy, let's have a race. I'm putting my Christmas bonus up for this. Let's have a race. Okay. So we're both- I see your point. It's coming into a competition, right? And then we go, okay, let's go. And I'll go, we go for the run and let's say, okay, I win. And then we go, okay, no, no, let's make this more fair then. And we go, okay, Andy, I'll fast. So I've got none of these buckets full, nothing's full. I've got no fuel on board. And then Andy, you can eat

The TFD, Geordie Sullivan, best fueling diet, the Ned Brockman strategy. I'm going 750 grams. Yeah, you're going the high rocks eating strategy. We rock up the next morning to that race. Who wins? Yeah, you're still going to cry. I'm still going to win, right? Because only because I've been conditioned over years, my muscle fiber tight, my...

you know, energy systems, my better aerobic base, my anaerobic threshold, all of these things are just more conditioned. And I think this is an important conversation to have, especially when we start talking not so much about the elite athletes, but more when we go, okay, for the everyday person who wants to do this, because at the end of the day,

You can eat the best diet in the world, but it doesn't necessarily make you good at the sport. What makes you good at the sport is training. And I think that's where you've got to put your thought process and you've got to go, okay, if training is what makes me very good at this sport and my goal is to beat Jordy in a 10K and take his Christmas bonus, then I need to focus my training on doing that. And nutrition comes into play by helping me train more intelligently and helping me recover and rock up and

train consistently. That's where nutrition comes into it. We're going to finish this conversation on that exact point, which is daily nutrition versus training nutrition, right? Because that's a really excellent thing. I love how you brought that up. I actually wish I would have started this entire conversation off with that concept and concepts like this, because on the same point, this was competition day for you.

This was not a training day. So my assumption is you probably did not eat this every single day you worked out, right? So there's also a difference between if you and I said, hey, let's go run this 10K and let's just go here. We're hanging out together. Let's just go have some fun. Let's go run a 10K.

That's not how you would strategize, right? Now, if you said, let's run this for a Christmas bonus, this is how you strategize, right? So there's a difference in fueling for an activity and fueling for the best possible score you can get in that activity, right? So that is a very important distinction because I'm sure at some point in this conversation, people are going to

be potentially triggered or something to say like, you couldn't do this every day. No, this is not intended to be done every day. This is fueling for performance to get the best out of there. We will definitely talk about how does this fold into a day. You brought up one little point earlier and I want to circle to that. And you actually said it really cleverly, but

You might even want to change when you're eating your calories throughout the day to still be in something like a caloric balance, but have a pseudo program like you developed for your higher rocks, right? So can you jam a bunch of calories in around your training, then getting some of the performance benefits, but then still having your calories low to lose weight. So we're going to get into all that stuff, but I don't want to, I got a bunch more Ned Brockman questions for you to get to there. So that's really great. With the six months of training,

All right. Now, this is actually nice because this is a little bit more like a daily rather than a race day, right? So I want to chat about the race day stuff. But for that six months of training, do you remember roughly what the...

the calories were per day and as well as the macros. And then how long did it take you to kind of figure out those numbers? So we obviously periodized it, I think just general. Within the week? Yeah. So every day we want to be aiming to have about 4,000 calories. And what's he weigh? Probably closer to 60 kilos. Oh, he's a bit heavy. He's a tall guy. He's deceptively tall. Like he looks really skinny, but he's just deceptive. I just assume if you run an ultra, you're like you're under 120 pounds. I mean, like isn't...

I tell myself that 5'7 is like the perfect marathon running champion because I'm that. Of course. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm not a good runner though. But Ned's quite tall. Ned's about 6'2. So he's about closer to, fluctuates anywhere between 79, about 82 kilos. Yeah, big guy. Wow. Okay. So he's reasonably big. So about 4,000 calories. Yeah. Roughly on the days. And then what...

How many grams of carbohydrates? He's averaging, he was, depending on the training days, say on a higher end, would be about that 500 grams of carbs. He would be doing roughly 160 grams of protein and then fat he would have been doing. Whatever the fill in there is. Yeah, whatever the fill in. And I guess that comes back to your point with the clustering because if you look at that, like we were saying, oh, you can't eat that every day in your training. You've got to understand though, when you're doing carbs,

the volume that Ned was doing to get ready for that, you can. What was his, do you remember what his weekly volume was? It was some weeks he was doing up to 200 kilometers. Crazy, right? Like, yeah, crazy amount of volume. And this is the thing though, is that obviously when the volume goes up and all the intensity goes up, you have to increase your intake. And so when you're doing something like that, even the 500 grams of carbs, we still had to

titrate that in because he wasn't used to it. And a lot of those carbohydrates, not like he's sitting down every single meal and having huge amounts of carbs, a lot of those carbs were clustered around these workouts. And if he's going for a two, three hour run, we're using these principles of the 60 to 90 grams to get his gut and those transporters used to taking in different types of carbohydrates. So a lot of that 500 is coming in around that training, whether it be

that immediately before training so we can spike those blood sugars or during training so we can just keep them consistent to help spare that glycogen. So a lot of that intake is clustered around his training. How much of it are you trying to get in before those heavy training sessions?

versus afterwards? In other words, are you like, hey, you got this big mileage today, let's get you way ahead of the game? Or are you more post-actively saying, okay, you ran these numbers, we got to backfill that stuff in? Yeah, I think a combination of both, right, depending on the day. But generally, say if you're doing 2-3,

you're going to get pretty close to winding that down. So your overall intake for the day needs to be quite high, but we like starting pretty heavy, just front loading pretty heavy for the exact reason that you said that we've got two training sessions here. We're going to burn through a lot, even though I know you don't need it for that first one. I know for sure you can get through it, but we're not thinking about just this first training session. We've got session number two and we've got session number three. And the thing is, and you know this just as well as I do, Andy, and all your athletes would say it,

It's hard to eat after training, just all the hormones going, you're tired, you're hot, whatever. It's tough. So if you can front load it and get on top of it early, I found it's a lot higher chance that you'll actually hit those numbers because 500 grams is still a lot to be eating. Yeah, that's a ton. Okay, we got those basic numbers. I'm sure they change day to day, but we get the gist of it. When did you start the race preparation from a food perspective? Was this...

Seven days out? Was it just the 24 days out? When did I guess the food start changing? When you carb load, which is the process of trying to fill up this glycogen bucket. So it's maxed out. So when you start, we've got maximal stores here. You have to practice that a lot to be

okay with it come race day. So what would we would do with Ned is that if he had a long run on a Saturday, I mean, every run for him was a long run, but a longer run, say on the Friday, we'd practice his carb loading strategy. So his gut was used to it. That was basically the only thing that we changed was beforehand. We did it for two days, actually. So a 48 hour carb load and we're hitting, so I was hitting numbers of six to eight grams. He was hitting between 10 to 12 grams per kilo. So much higher because he's

The whole question is, is that too much to max out the glycogen? I sit back and go, "I don't really care because we're about to do this for 12 and a half. I'd rather overdo it than underdo it." Well, what's the worst thing that will happen if you overdo it? Yeah, might sit on the toilet. Bingo, right? And in practice, this is the time to learn because if you were to look in the scientific literature, you will see six to 10 is the number we say for crazy events like this.

But that's just a guess. He might be 12. He might be 14. He might be five. Like you actually don't know what his upper limit would be until you've run that experiment, right? So you have a starting place, which is what every good scientist does. The literature tells me to start somewhere between six to eight, right? That's what you did. That's what you did with him. But the literature doesn't tell you this is the only number you have to ever be at. It doesn't say this is what's going to work the best. It just says on average, most people will probably do pretty well at this number.

But I think that's really smart of you to, obviously, I'm not stunned at all you did that because he could, he might be fine at 12. He might be fine at 14. I definitely know we've had people well over 10 and they're like absolutely fine from a gut perspective. And I know certainly some people will be just destroyed.

at that number. So very smart on you to try that and see where you could get to. What was the kind of highest you got, 12 or so? About 12 for two days before we got about 12 grams per kilo. And I guess that's a good point too, Andy. I mean, that is a kilo of carbohydrates. Oh, huge. Oh, huge amounts. He's 80 kilograms. Yeah.

10 would be 800 grams, right? If he's close to 12, like he's getting close to a thousand grams or a kilogram of carbohydrate. Yeah. And this is the thing, that's back to your point about like the literature as well. You can look at that, but, and we can dive into this a bit more when it comes to, okay, what do you actually do during an ultra endurance race? A lot of this endurance literature that you're reading for the most part is done on elite male marathon runners who are running between two hours and 230 marathons.

Which is very, very different to running a thousand miles over 12 and a half days. It's not the same thing. So a lot of these principles, even when you're going intra fueling, like your electrolyte and hydration strategy,

how you're carb loading. A lot of it, like you said, is up to your interpretation. And that's a big part of why we said we need six months here because yeah, we've got some guiding lights here, but this is a pretty crazy event. And I'm looking at the physio going, have you ever done anything like this? He's going, nah. And it's like, the coach, have you ever done? It's like, nah. And we're all going, okay, well,

What do we use as our guiding lights? And you're doing this, but really we need him to put it into practice. We need to get some feedback and then we need to adjust and then keep going. And that's why we needed so long in the prep. Yeah. I mean, the data on marathon running would be almost useless at this point. You need to look at cycling. Yeah. Right. That's probably the closest thing where you could get is, you know, Tour de France being the more...

There's other races, but those databases, what those coaches do throughout that fueling strategy is probably much closer to what you did here. And even if we're looking at cycling, because we did, but just overall power wattage for say someone in the Tour de France, greatly different to someone who's plodding along for a thousand miles. So when we look at that and you go, okay, how much per hour carb do we need?

These guys in the Tour de France and the peloton are pushing 120 gram plus. You got guys in 100 mile races breaking world records doing 120 gram plus. Does that apply when we're doing- You're referring to 120 grams per hour. Per hour of carbs, yeah, during the race. In the race, yeah. And that's what a lot of that- Which is really high. Oh, it's incredible. But then we go, does that apply over here for net?

And so that was almost the other part that was really exciting about this whole thing is we get to find out. Okay. Okay. So that's really interesting. I'm trying to guess here. I might be wrong, but let me know. So then was the strategy hyper fueling his carbohydrates before the race, but then maybe not even having a huge amount during the race?

Basically, I guess to the everyday person, like for me and you, if we ate what he ate, we'd go, oh, that's a lot. If we compare what he did and we can go through his numbers to say what someone in the Peloton or these really, really elite, you know, Zach Miller breaking world record ultra endurance guys do.

basically half in terms of carbohydrates per hour. So he was 50, 60 grams per hour. Yeah. I think we averaged about 68 grams per hour. Which is still pretty good for people who have played basketball or football or like they've never done any real endurance work. You would be like, wow, 60 grams in an hour, that's quite a lot. But it's really not...

If you contrast it to like the cycling and other long duration sports where you're going to be over 100, theoretically, grams per hour. Okay. Super interesting. So going back to it, you tried out multiple times the 48 hour window and you're getting, you know, 800 plus grams of carbohydrates in.

In those days. Um, is that what you also then eventually did before the race? Yeah. Before the race. Yeah. And it worked well in the way, one way, very unscientific way, which is still scientific is when you eat a lot of carbohydrates, you put a lot of glycogen in here and we abuse this with our fighters. All that glycogen holds water as well. Your weight goes right up. So your weight will go skyrocketing. So then I knew if his weight went up to a certain amount to about 83, 84 kilos,

I knew that, okay, we're pretty good here. So in the 48 hours before competition, you were trying to get a three kilo bump in body weight. Thereabouts, yeah. Something in that neighborhood, maybe a little more, three, three and a half kilo.

Which is, I don't think people would think about that, right? That weight gain that you get in the load is exceptionally important, especially when you're digging through the literature as well. And you're looking at, say, these marathon guys. Yeah. And so, and a lot of it, right, when we're talking about, okay, and we'll talk about this. Essentially, like I said at the start, when you're doing an ultra marathon, everyone loses. Right.

Our job is to slow down the rate that you lose. And Ned was in one of those very interesting scenarios that not a lot of people put themselves in where these buckets are going to get pretty close to empty. Even if we just let Ned run around the laps and keep going, yeah, these glycogen buckets and the glucose bucket go down, he would start drastically going into the fat bucket. If we didn't fuel him, he'd just rant. That's why if you go out for five days, have a little bit of water, you're going to eventually drop. You're going to just deplete all your stores as well. Yeah.

That's a real possibility. The thing is, our goal then is how do we keep these stores high enough and how do we keep his system in a spot where he can just keep going? And a big part of that, which we'll get into, is the hydration piece. But what a lot of the research, and there is some good research that does account for this now, is that, and you would have heard, oh, the 2%, if we lose 2%.

But they're looking at marathon runners say that they don't account for this carbohydrate load and then they weigh them at the end of it. And an elite marathon runner running 220, if you've ever run at that pace, even on the treadmill for two minutes, I can probably do it for a minute. You're not stopping and drinking a lot. You can maybe sweet and go and you see that with the elite guys as well. So they're losing quite a lot. So that's a factor we had to think about as well, because then we're going, okay,

The literature is saying that a lot of these marathon guys can, you know, there's the study of Gabrielle Celeste. I think it was in the 2004 Dubai marathon where he lost 10% of his body weight and he broke the world record. Oh, there's stories like going back to the Frank Shorters and stuff of five liters per hour, like getting dumped in fluid, just huge fluid losses. Yeah. And you look at that and you go, okay, well, 10%, we've got heaps. And you go, well, that's probably a lot of that is like the

like the pre-fueling. So like in an event that goes this long, what are actually the boundaries that we're working within to keep him going? Because again, that's the game, right? The game here isn't, we're trying to, we were trying to break a world record, but ultimately we're trying to just keep him going. So,

And then there's not really, I couldn't find any, any literature that told me how to fuel Ned Brockman for this, but you're trying to interpret all of these things from this research that does apply, but kind of doesn't. And then we're all sitting here as the sports med team going, okay, how do we do this? How do we do it? What are we tracking? What are we looking for? His weight goes up here. I know for a fact that when he comes around and we were doing weight checks as he was coming around,

If I want to make sure that he's not depleting and he's not becoming too dehydrated, what weight do I go from then? But knowing what his regular weight was in that six-month prep and getting a good average gave me a good number. So when he came into the tent and we're tracking, I can go, okay, we're on track here. Okay. So just to make numbers up here, what you're saying is you knew for six months that he's going to weigh roughly 80 kilos. All right. I want to make that number up. And then you knew when he started the race, he was 83.4 or something. Yeah.

But you were not going to base your 2% loss on that 83.4. You based that 2% loss on the 80 kilograms, right? So the 2% loss, to clarify, is the marker of hydration, right? So once you get below 2%, and we're not saying 2% dehydrated, it is you've lost 2% of your body mass, right? And we're assuming most of that comes from water.

Below that 2%, performance decrements are going to start going down. So with our competitive athletes, we'll certainly get well past 2%, but we're not competing right then. We're going to go way, we got 24 to 36 hours to rehydrate. So the 2% number is based on that 80%. Did I have that? Yeah, exactly right. Okay. So as you're watching him and you start noticing he's down to whatever that math works out to be,

But he's down in this example, say if you had a weight check and he was 76 kilos, you'd be like, whoa, wow.

Okay, now we know we're in a dangerous spot because we've lost way too much fluid at this point. Yeah. So you were giving him enough fluids on top of the food to keep him right plus or minus that 80 kilograms. So you knew he was going to lose three or four. What did he end up being about on? I would imagine after two, three days, it did kind of stabilize probably till the end or so. This is the craziest thing, and this is why I give Ned so much credit. He did stabilize, and I've got the numbers. He basically stayed stable.

around 78, 79, and he never dropped below 2%. And the reason for that, he had a fantastic hydration strategy. And that's not me saying I put it into place. That was him executing it. Yeah. And he executed it perfectly. Theory and practice. That is an execution. 100%. So his weight never went down. Do you know offhand how much total fluid he was consuming per day? It ranged between 500 mils and about 1.2 liters, depending on the weather. Total throughout the day?

Oh, per hour. Sorry. Okay. Okay. There you go. Yeah. All right. So between a half and a little over a liter per hour while he's running. While he's running. Okay. And that was enough where he could not feel like he's sloshing around in his stomach, but then also getting the fluid in that he needed to get in. Yeah. And again, that was part of the assessment that we do. And I have this philosophy and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it too, Andy, is that

If there's one marker that you can use to tell how well an ultra endurance runner will go, it's their sweat rate. Oh, yeah. And I think if you've got a low sweat rate, everyone would know those guys in races that rock up to aid stations and they just, oh, a bit of watermelon, great. Ooh, shish kebab, I'll have some of that. Chocolate, orange juice. And then they run on their merry way because what they're losing is very easy to replace. And they're never going in past these two-point levels.

two to three to 4% dehydrated. So they're never getting to the point where this is getting really stressful on my system. And we're getting all these cardiovascular problems, plasma volumes going down. We're not perfusing to the gut, all these problems. They're not getting there because it's so easy for them to replace it. When you get these really big sweaters, completely different. These are the guys that are dragging their feet into the aid stations. They're overheating because they're dehydrated. Even if they're drinking a liter of

fluid per hour. They're still not even meeting 50% of their needs. Big, big, big problem. That was the first thing I looked at with Ned. And he fortunately was a very low sweater. He'd only lose between four and 700, 700 mils an hour if it was really hot. If it got really hot while he was running, he'd get up to about that one, 1.2. And he was within that limit. You can basically use that drink to thirst to an extent. To an extent, you can use that drink to thirst, which Ned

Did use, I'll say he did use it, but then again, it was very educated because we spoke about it and being like, if I left him to his own devices, he just wouldn't drink. So he was aware he had to do it. But once you get past those areas where it gets really, really big losses, it's very hard to drink to thirst for one. And it's very hard to just meet your fluid demand. And like that rate of losing just rockets down. It's a really big challenge.

That was the first thing I assessed with Ned. When we did that, I went, okay, this is going to make this whole thing so much easier. Yeah. And did you just do that assessment via take your body weight, go run for your hour, come back and check your body weight again. Okay, you're down a kilo. We know you've lost a liter. Yeah. The way we do it is that, and you would know this for sure with weight cutting, I think weight cutting with these athletes and for the guys that don't know who are listening, weight cutting is when we put the UFC fighters in the sauna or the bathtub and they sweat a lot.

But I spent years doing that with hundreds and hundreds of athletes. And I feel like I've got a very, very interesting perspective on sweating and heat tolerance and everything.

That is hugely helpful for these events. But what you know, and I know Andy, is that the first hour that you exercise, you lose quite a lot. The second hour you lose a bit more, not as much. And then it goes down. It cuts in half about every hour. Yeah. And there's osmotic reasonings for all of that. It's interesting in ultra endurance because unlike weight cutting where you're nil by mouth, not putting anything in, you are over here. So you're influencing those osmotic gradients that are affecting that. So what we do with our ultra endurance athletes is

Hey, Ned, give me one hour at your normal running pace that we're going to be doing this race at. Okay. That's what you're losing your first hour. Give me one after your two hour run and then go out for a four, five, six hour run, record everything you're putting in and let's see how this changes.

Because that's important as well. If we just do the hydration strategy for that first hour, we're probably going to overshoot your hydration as we get past the six, seven, eight hour mark. That's going to create issues in and of itself. Yeah. So we need to understand what does your sweat rate do?

during the duration of the event, but then also what happens when the sun comes out and you're in exposed Sydney Olympic Park and it's 32 degrees, how does that change your sweat rate compared to there was one night we were there and it got down to nine degrees and you're getting extremely cold, you're not sweating at all. So you have to understand, okay, what's the fluid and electrolyte strategy for all of those situations. Yeah. We don't play around with that.

As in we measure it directly in real time at all times. So especially, you know, fight week or competition week during the Olympics and things like that. We will wear at all times a NYX, an AX, a sweat sensor. I don't have any affiliation to that company. We just buy them like everybody else. But you can put that on and you can see in real time exactly the sweat rate.

total sweat amount and the sweat content so i know at all times when our fighters are doing weight cuts stuff i know i don't have to have them step back on a scale i literally know exactly what they weigh the entire time through and so there's no guessing at all there and that sensor is really cheap it's like a hundred dollars or something over here so you can you can do a bunch of different things like that to not master we do it a bunch in camp as well because you're right it will change

When you change the scenario, the sweat rate, the sweat content will all change as they've sweated more. That sweat rate will go down. That decay is pretty easy to actually plot. We'll actually do that. Like almost always is we'll plot that decay ahead of time. So I'll know where we're going to be at. I mean, you know all the numbers on your guys too. Like there's no guessing anymore at this point. But do you happen to have any idea of how much like sodium you're putting in per day? Or any close to that? Because-

You can put back a liter of water per hour, but if you're not putting in some sort of electrolyte, you're going to be in problems, especially after 12 days. Worked out to be about 550 milligrams, which was pretty good. Yeah. Pretty low though for- Per hour. Per hour. Yeah. Okay. Well, per, I guess, liter of fluid that we were putting in, probably a better way to put it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

That's not a crazy number at all. I mean, that's going to be a crazy number multiplied by 10 hours. But really, five grams, that's not that much. So he is a pretty low sweater and a low sodium sweater. And this is the thing that I've found with pretty much all our elite endurance athletes. They all fit that mark. Yeah.

Really? Is that they're a low sweater and they're a low salty sweater. But every single one of them will tell you that they're a really big sweater. Oh, I know. Every single one. And it's funny though, and this is segueing a little bit, and this is a sentiment we both share, is that it's not that you're sweating a lot, you just feel really hot. And you're just associating feeling really hot with losing a lot of fluid, but they're not the same thing. So I got a really good sense of what he was drinking and his electrolyte on there. What did his fueling look like throughout the process?

the actual race event here? Oh, man. It's very eclectic. Yeah. So I'll give you kind of the daily rundown, and it's a bit odd. People are going to listen to the first meal and be like, what the heck? And I'll give you the reasoning for it, so don't shoot me down straight away. So first meal, my job when he came in,

I'd wake up about 4.30, so we'd get home about midnight, and then I'd wake up 4, 4.30, and I had to be back at the track at 5. He'd start at 6 a.m., and crazy enough, this is a little segue, the first two laps that he did, he would describe that he had to slam his feet

into the ground. He wouldn't run. He would slam them into the ground so that his feet went numb. So he didn't feel them. So he could run normally. So we'd rock up to the track and I'd have his breakfast with me. And I just hear this. And I look at him and it's just this guy head down, just running.

banging this. And then afterwards I kind of said, we're like, that's the first 15 minutes of my day. Yeah. Yeah. And then he went and then he had to do another 15 hours of that. But he said, if I didn't do that, my feet were in so much pain, I couldn't run. But anyway, I digress. I would rock up the first thing I had to do. And the only thing he wanted to eat after about day five or six was

was I guess, McDonald's. He wanted a McDonald's, but he would wake up. That's not the first thing he woke up and he'd have an oat bowl. So he had this big oat bowl and we'd aim to get about 120 grams of carbs in it. He'd have oats, he'd have milk, he'd have brown sugar, banana berries, maple syrup. We'd add to it, bit of protein powder. He'd have that he's have his electrolytes so he could get back up and be hydrated.

Another 500 milligrams of electrolytes. Yeah, thereabouts. Yeah, thereabouts. And try to aim for about- Using train aid, I assume. Yeah, yeah. Your product. Yeah, yeah. So he'd drink that and then he'd get back up. He wouldn't get back up. He would be wheeled. He would wheel out to the track and then we'd start going. And then after he did, I think it was eight laps, I'd have to be there with his first meal.

And the thing is, is that that would sustain him for a little while. But all of these ultra endurance events, you just get onto it before it's a problem. You have to do it. And the thing that he could only thing he could stomach was these, the McDonald's McMuffins, that as well as hotcakes drenched in syrup, which got a lot of carbs. And he even said, he even said to me, he's like, man, I'm never eating this food again. And it's like,

And I get it because he doesn't eat that in his day to day. And his mom looked at him at one point. He said, look, honey, it's serving a purpose and it's working. So let's keep at it. And then a lot of people will say like, oh, why didn't you just give him these whole foods and do this? And like, don't get me wrong. We trialed them. We did. We absolutely did in an ideal world. I would give it. It's just not realistic. Not when you've been going for that long. Your brain is just so fried. You're 600 miles in. And the other thing, Andy, that people don't appreciate with this is

is that there's a lot of sodium in those foods. No doubt. A lot of sodium and people will go- Savory. Everything else in his life was sweet at that point. Exactly. So it's like we're ticking two boxes where I don't have to give him something sweet on the palate and then I don't have to rely on giving him salt tablets, which when you're taking salt tablets as well, they can have that osmotic effect as well. If you can get in the food, it digests better. So a lot of the sodium we were giving him, I was trying to get in the food.

And it's people look at it and go, Oh, what you can't, that's unhealthy. And you go for that point in time, that was the best thing he needed. And the thing is it got him through and he doesn't eat like that for 99% of the other time, but that's why his gut can get away with it. Cause he's trained his gut to,

very very very healthy all the time but yeah big oak bowl and then we'd start with mcdonald's and then we kind of just rotate between we had so many different options we'd go from like custard bowls like yogurt bowls we'd have shepherd's pie we'd have oh man all sorts of food like you think of it we made it and it was just like we're getting fresh food bought in like meat pies like baked goods um like veggie slice all types of different things

We had pretty much the goal of, okay, every 40 minutes or so, if we're aiming for about 70 grams, we're getting in like 30 to 40 grams of carbs every time he takes something in and he eats. So whatever we were making and concocting, we had to like run the numbers and we had his mom and then a couple of the crew members there and we had a big run sheet. So every time they would write it down, I'd kind of go past and be like, okay, let's work this out.

Where are we at? Did he get it in? Okay. We didn't get it in that round. This next one, let's add some, say whipped cream or something light or maple syrup, honey to the banana bread, just so we can get these numbers back up. Yep. Because like I said-

This is probably one of those situations where these buckets over here, we're very much depleting them. So he was eating about every 40 minutes? About every 40 minutes. So the way it worked is that every two laps, he'd take on hydration and he'd swap between water and electrolytes. And then every eight laps or so, which worked out to be about 40 minutes, we'd give him a little something to eat. And then after 32 laps, he would come in and sit down for a meal. Proper meal. Makes sense. So what were his total numbers at?

On those days in terms of how many total grams, carbohydrates and calories. Got on my phone. Can I pull it out? Yeah, of course. I wrote these down. All right. So Ned's daily nutrition. So we were aiming for about 8,000 calories a day. What we got in. Okay. So even you about doubled his normal daily stuff. That was the target, the idea. Yeah. And just on that note.

8,000, do the maths. I'm running for 16 hours a day, a hundred miles. You're burning way more than that. Yeah, we are. Absolutely. We are. And this is why this is important that we have a strategy to make sure these buckets are full because in the background where we're making up the difference is this bucket of fat. That's where it's coming from. And what

we need to do and why we're putting so much emphasis on the carbs is because this is what's keeping him going because yes we're burning this fat almost in double time while he's running and just to make up the energy difference so it's literally like i keep saying everyone loses we're just trying to slow down the rate at which you lose so you can get to the finish line carbs we were averaging just shy of 1100 grams 1100 1100 grams and which worked out per day to be 13 grams per kilo per day

That was the strategy. Yeah. So that was what you actually executed. That's what we executed. Yeah. Wow. That's pretty good. That's yeah. Insanely good. Like I said, hugely impressive from him. Um, protein 307 was

was the average, which was 3.8 grams per kilogram per day. Why so high on protein? We had to make up the calories to be fair, because otherwise it would be one. I think the lean muscle degradation was a big problem he had in his last race. And so a big focus in his block was putting on a lot of muscle. Yep. And then I was very, very aware that we're going to still, and I'm talking about these buckets.

Muscle is a bucket as well that you don't usually tap into. I was very aware that he would start tapping into it. Oh, yeah. I mean, again, this is where you will differ from even an Ironman, right? Where you're not concerned about protein intake from a muscle preservation perspective at an Ironman. Oh, absolutely. Because who cares? Yeah. Right. Doesn't matter. Eight to 10 hours.

Not a big deal. You had to do that for 10 straight days, 12 straight days. Yeah, exactly. It's just a different bullpup. So that's actually interesting. I never thought about that because at that point, you absolutely have to be worried about it, right? Yeah. When you do, this is on this protein point, when you yourself or have coached other folks doing a more traditional Ironman or maybe honestly a 50 or 60 mile ultra, what do you normally like to have them at for protein intake? Yeah.

We don't particularly look at it too far in depth unless it's above a hundred kilometers. So a hundred kilometers, you're getting anywhere done between 12 and 16, 18 hours. If you're doing like a hundred miler and you're going into the 24 to 36 hour, that's when we look into it. So sub 10 hours, you don't even care. Yeah, we're not really looking into it.

And again, I guess the other part to that, and we won't go into it, is like the frequency of racing, which comes into, you're doing these big training blocks, which are going to be very, very muscle atrophying. So it's like, we need to look into it. So, but we're still not aiming for crazy big numbers, if I'm being perfectly honest. Well, I mean, honestly, generally people do pretty low protein at this point, right? Because you're trying to get in fuel, you're concerned about getting calories. So fat will bring in, you really care about carbohydrates and

Protein is usually there just to settle the stomach because it comes along for the ride in some foods. It's there a part of other stuff. So if you're doing a paddleboard race or a walk or something like that and you're sub 10 hours, then focus on fat, calories, nutrition.

digestive comfort and not worrying really about protein at all. What do you like to see past that 10 hour mark for protein? Is it closer to that one gram per pound? Yeah, I'd say one gram or so, 1.5-ish or so. Yeah, okay. But in this case, you want to go way higher than that because you're a very unique challenge. Yeah, and I knew that that was an issue after his last challenge that he had. And then

you've got to put that muscle back on afterwards, right? Which is very difficult. So let's just not lose as much during it. This entire conversation, we've leaned heavily on carbohydrates. So with this event, with maybe the 10 hour plus events and the sub 10 hour events, was there any thought to going really high on fat, particularly for this one, given the fact that it's lower intensity, it's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Have you guys experimented with that? Did you try that with Ned? What are your general feelings on the endurance people going really, really high on fat given, you know? Yeah, I've got mixed feelings about this. I think if you look at the literature, I think Louise Burke's done some really, really good stuff here. Her supernova studies, I think, are just the greatest things ever, right? Out of Australia? Yeah, out of Australia. Louise is probably the goat of all sports nutrition. Yeah, she's phenomenal. And she's studied this a lot, right? And it's not that, and she even says it herself, it's not that she's anti-fungal.

anti-keto or pro-carb or she just went when you're working for the Australian Institute of Sport you're trying to find out what works best for the athlete to get gold medals you are incentivized to win exactly you're not you're not paid incentivized to promote a diet like you want your athletes I promise you right now if I knew how to feel my athletes better than the rest of you I would do that I would probably not tell you

But I would have 1000% be doing that, not be protecting a brand or like, who cares? Behind the curtain, if you're not telling anybody, you would be doing what works the best, right? Yeah, exactly right. So yeah, she's got her incentives are to...

show that, you know, well, is to find the thing that works the best. Yeah. Yeah. And you would have seen this when you were coming up through university, doing your doctorate. There was this whole thinking, right? Like out of this whole system I just explained where, okay, we've got this big bucket of fat. We've got these finite resources of glycogen. There's the bucket of protein over. We're not really going to touch. But if there's a finite resource of glycogen, why don't we just focus on the huge reservoir of fat and get better at using that and use that throughout the

training or the competition. Let me add a couple of other pieces to that actually to make the case for fat. The other strong arguments I hear are it breaks up having to have such sweet stuff all the time, like you're getting carbohydrates. So the palate fatigue is one. Another one is you've gotten over double the amount of calories per gram.

And so if you're looking to try to get six to eight to 10,000 calories in a day, fat is a way easier source. So those are probably the strongest arguments for going a moderate to even really high fat there. So that's the argument, but in theory, how does it work? So in theory, you can go, okay, if I eat a higher fat diet, lower carbohydrates, I should be able to metabolize and oxidize that fat better. And then therefore at these...

intensities that are lower to the higher intensities, if I'm using more fat because I'm fat adapted, I should be going into this fat reservoir and using more fat, sparing the muscle glycogen. I should be able to go further for longer and I should perform better. And it's a very valid theory. And what Louise did in those supernova studies is she took those elite race walkers and she fed them and

To be fair, it's three weeks, but she's repeated the supernova studies almost eight times, I think. Yeah. A ton of different protocols, the different lengths in terms of short duration, longer duration. Yeah, she's done it a bunch. So she took these two groups of elite racewalkers, fed one of them a high carb diet, which was about 8.6 grams per kilo. Don't quote me on the exact number per day. So quite high. So high rocks high and then keto very low. So 50 grams per day.

And then when it came, these are elite guys that did this in a race to perform as well. So when she measured them, she said, yes, in fact, when you eat a higher fat diet and you have less carbohydrates, you do indeed burn

burn more fat and you burn more fat way more efficiently. And then when you eat more carbohydrates, you burn more carbohydrates. So then you go, okay, well, let's put these guys in a race together and let's see what happens. And every single time she's repeated this study, the high carb guys win.

And you go, well, why is that? And you do in fact see when you track this, yes, these guys do oxidize more fat, almost double to triple the fat gram per minute than what the high carb group is. But when you get up to these higher intensities,

they one just don't have the reservoir of fuel in the glycogen. So their body's looking to get this glycogen that's just not there. And two, they don't have the enzymatic processes to rapidly break down that carbohydrate. So these race walkers, much like Olympic marathoners, anyone that's really going hard in a race who is getting 85, 90, 93% of their VO2 max, you're looking to burn and break down this carbohydrate.

these guys are very efficient at the fat but when it came to those higher levels

The high carb guys want out and you go, well, can't you just burn the fat in the same way? And the thing is, people think you can't burn fat high in terms. You can, you absolutely can. And the difference between it is just 5.6%. And all that is, is just the chemistry, the stoichiometry. For sure. And if these guys, if you remember doing, you know, your organic chemistry, no one loved it at undergrad. But if you work out the amount of ATP, which is the energy molecule that you get per gram

molecule of oxygen, you get about 5.6% more ATP per molecule of oxygen for burning carbohydrate compared to fat. Yeah. So this is a really good biochemistry point that gets lost in people that have just a touch of exercise physiology. If you were to take a gram of carbohydrate and a gram of fat, you would get an order of magnitude more total ATP from that same gram of fat

Right. You would get far more. There are way more carbon bonds. You'll run way more rounds of Krebs cycle, drag silica acid cycle, and you get way more total ATP. But it's literally the opposite when it comes to oxygen efficiency. That's the story that you just outlined. Carbohydrate is more efficient per molecule of oxygen.

by that exact amount. This is the difference, right? It's total amount of capacity for ATP versus efficiency per molecule of oxygen. Sometimes you care about the total number. Sometimes you care about the efficiency. In this particular case, this is going to be a problem even though you have, because fundamentally, you're not out of fat ever anyways. That's not the rate limiting part of performing is not how much fat you have, because as you shared earlier, it's not outrageous to have 100,000 calories on your body

a potential fuel and fat. But you're going to have 2000 calories of carbohydrate on your body. You're going to be limited by that. Like that's going to be your, so it's faster. It's directly in the exercising muscle tissue itself.

and your stores are limited. So it may or may not be better, but it's certainly going to be the limiting factor. It's going to run out much faster, right? The supernova studies are not perfect. The high fat ketogenic folks love to criticize them. No study is perfect, right? But I think based on all the available evidence, and in this, at least your philosophy with your experience, it seems to be the carbohydrates for these kinds of events are the one. Is that the same for

Sedentary people? No, no, no. Those are totally different conversations, right? We're talking about performance, fueling, long-duration endurance events, your personal experience with your individual clients. And at this point, I think you've made a pretty compelling case that you're not no fat. That's not like three grams per kilogram is not low in fat. That's a high amount.

But you're certainly going to be emphasizing carbohydrates a lot. Is that a fair summary of your point? And I think if we go back to that point that we made right at the start where we worked out the zone two heart rate. Yeah. So if we go back to that point and even someone would say, oh, Ned's not running at 85, 90% VO2 max. And I say, I absolutely agree. But-

considering everything that's going on with his body, cardiovascular drift, the stress and everything else, the way that his metabolism does work is he probably is sitting in that high zone too, which we know is still predominantly bad.

Using carbs. So we can say, okay, well, if he's going to predominantly be using carbs as an energy source anyway, yes, the fat is really important and being fat adapted is really important, but we need the carbs because it's a finite resource. And I always say to people, one, if your goal is to get fat adapted, the best way to get fat adapted is just to train. You become really fat adapted just by training. It's the best and most powerful training response you get. And then I say, okay, two, coming back to that point,

these ultra endurance races are really tough. And that relationship between glycogen levels and central fatigue, even though we don't completely understand it, it's a real thing. When you've got someone running for 12 and a half days and we're getting low on glycogen and he's absolutely mentally losing it, if I can give him more carbohydrates and that gets us back on track and that gets us back going towards the goal, we're going to go with more carbohydrates. And that's something we notice every time that Ned would mentally slip, run through the numbers. Oh man,

We didn't, we missed a feeding opportunity. We didn't get this in. We didn't do this. Blood sugar must've dropped. And then he really struggled. He started burning into that glycogen. So, and I do appreciate it. And I, like you said, for the everyday person, for sure, we can talk about the fat adaptation, but when it comes, it just, we see it clear as day. The fastest marathon runners burn more carbohydrates. The fastest ultra endurance athlete to a running a hundred miles at the

at these 85, 90% their VO2 max are burning more carbohydrates. You can do an ultra marathon just on fat. Absolutely. You're just probably not going to be up there. And when we say 5.6% more efficient, every single marathon world record in the last 10 years or five, six years, let's say, has been broken wearing super shoes, which add how much percent

you know, to it. Probably a couple of percent. A couple of percent. And then you think, okay, and then you think, and a hundred meter sprint isn't the best example for energy system wise, but you think the difference between first place and second place is 1%. So if we're seeing that, okay, you can be 5.6% more efficient. And then these studies are saying that the high carb athletes are performing 8% better just by the way that they eat. Maybe for the everyday person, if you're just trying to complete it,

For sure, we can try some fat, but if you're at the top level and you're trying to do something insane and you're trying to compete, we're taking that 5.6%. Yeah, all day, right? There's a difference between completing and completing at your fastest. Okay, fantastic.

I want to touch really quickly, and we'll have to do a whole show on this, but I opened up the chat today. I gave the example of your high rocks fueling, and then I gave the example of Kaikara France doing this, and it was still jelly beans, Parmesan chicken, coconut cookies and chocolate, grilled salmon. You get the idea here, right?

This was for somebody trying to lose, I don't know what it was, five kilos in five days or probably something like that. I used a little bit more. What I want to know is about this five-day process of weight cut. I realize many of you listening will never do something like this, but some of you will. We have a ton of weightlifters and powerlifters and wrestlers and jiu-jitsu folks and things that are going to compete. And those that are also just interested in physiology. Like how do these pro athletes do it?

I think if I would have had a poll of people who listen to the show and I asked them, what do you think a fighter eats? I don't think for, you know, for this weight cut, none of these things would have landed on that list. 1900 calories for a guy. Again, it doesn't matter if these are the exact numbers, but probably, you know, Monday a fight week was 135 pounds and had to get down to 125. It's probably in the stratosphere. If not, it's the reasonable numbers, right? So 10 pounds in five days, right?

He ate 1,900 calories a day, 60 grams of carbs, 140 grams of protein, and 125 grams of fat. How on earth does that equal 10 pounds of loss over five days? It's like...

understand this let's break it down into two distinct sections so we've got the fight camp so when these guys sign a contract so andy you made the ufc congrats you call geordie up and you go we're gonna make weight yeah and you go hey geordie i've got eight weeks okay i'll give you numbers on me right now uh probably walking 175 and i competed at 145 yeah okay so we get these numbers 145 and we go okay we need to figure out how to get andy on weight there's going to be two distinct i got

I got 10 weeks. 10 weeks. Okay. Two distinct parts of this process. We're going to have our fight camp process, which we're going to focus on body fat loss. So through that process, we're going to have none. Yeah, I can tell you you're looking good. Appreciate it.

But we're going to lose that body fat. The way we're going to do that is a sustained controlled calorie deficit. That's all the stuff we talked about. All we talked about. We're going to put all these principles of periodizing the nutrition so you can feel. 1% per week. Exactly. So we're going to use that. So let's just say 1% per week and then we go, okay, then we transfer over.

to nine weeks of training, you arrive to the hotel, which is in the city you're fighting in. We've got one week here. Then the strategy changes to what we call the acute weight cut. Okay. So let's just say as an example, I was on 170 right now.

I did that. I had nine weeks, I lost 9%. I don't know what the exact math was out there, but like I've done this, I've done this 145 pound thing many times. So I can tell right now that's going to be 158. Yeah. Probably in the ballpark, right? So if I am Monday of fight week 158, I got 13 more pounds to go. I'm very happy with that number. That also then meant I lost 12 pounds in nine weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Very reasonable. Yeah. And it's within those limits, right? Where we go, okay, that's about,

0.5 to 1, maybe 1.5% is okay, but we're happy with that. I feel like we can remove water in that acute weight loss phase very safely. In those five days. In those five days. But some guys, for whatever reasons, genetics, certain characteristics, we might be able to push it up to 12%. After that, I'm not very comfortable with it, I think. So for me-

If I'm 160, 10% would be 16 pounds. Yeah. So you'd be comfortable with me going 16 pounds of water over those five days, which would be 144. Yeah. So some people, 8%.

is their, you know, probably their limit, which means they need to be 157 or so. Some people, maybe 12 would be that 162. So these numbers are lining up pretty much perfectly. Yeah. Okay. So let's just say I'm at that 160. I'm a moderate weight cutter-ish sort of average. And that 10% would probably, I don't even have to do that, like nine point something, but let's say 10%. Yeah. So we got 10% here and then we go, okay, we need to completely change your dietary strategy. Everything changes at this point. Everything changes. So

For that change to work though, in your fight camp, you need to follow a couple of principles. You need to be eating a good amount of carbohydrates. You need to be replacing the salt that you're losing in your training, and you need to be having a good amount of fiber. And the reason we need you doing that all through fight camp is because these are the three nutrients that we're going to manipulate in these five days to get this water out. And what we're doing in these five days is we're strategically manipulating

scientifically but very slowly taking water out of different compartments. Now the first big change that a lot of people be familiar with is we're reducing carbohydrate intake. Now if we're reducing carbohydrate intake if we go back to this bucket what we're going to do is slowly remove all that glycogen. So if we're removing all that muscle glycogen we're removing some of the liver glycogen we're

we're not only just removing the physical weight of that stored glycogen, but every piece of glycogen, and this number's up for debate, but I always go with it holds 2.7 grams of water. So let's just say one gram of glycogen with three grams of water. So by using this strategy, you've got

Four grams here, there about. Total weight. Of total weight of your total glycogen that we can rip out. So that can translate up to two, three, four kilos, which is, you know, with that five, six pounds. Let's do easy math, right? Let's see if I dumped a hundred grams of carbohydrate and then an additional 300 grams of water, I just lost a half a kilo. Yeah. Ish, right? Like I'm over, if a pound, like in that made up scenario, right? So I'm there. Yeah. And

and to do that all we need to do is reduce your carbohydrate intake so we're removing all of our grains our breads our pastas things like that and we're replacing them with high fat high protein foods thing is though andy you're coming in you'll go to ufc fight in five days time your coach is going to want you to train every day and i go okay well i know that from doing mixed martial arts it's a very tough sport to do when you don't have carbohydrates on board

And we can't rely on your bucket of glycogen because we're depleting that every day. So that 60 grams that you're seeing that I'm giving Kai every single day, we're strategically using one of those receptors that we spoke about earlier to get him 60 grams of carbohydrates right before he's training. So when he goes in and trains, one, he can actually train to a decent level and two, mentally he feels better. So that's where that 60 grams comes in. And that is that almost entirely coming from those jelly beans.

Yeah. Well, it's personal preference, right? Right. Because some guys like, they love having blueberries and strawberries or fresh fruit. A lot of these guys, you got to remember they've come off. So Andy, you've just come off nine weeks dieting and now you're coming into this pretty intense weight cut phase where you're depleting your body. That glucose hit

is a real thing. And anyone who's done endurance sport and has done a carbohydrate mouth rinse will appreciate this. Even you swishing carbohydrates in your mouth and spitting out sends a signal to your brain and you go, wow, I feel good. That's essentially what we're trying to do by hitting this 60 grams of carbs right before training. Yeah. And you're, depending on the size of the person, probably looking for 30 to 50 grams in that pre-workout sort of thing. Okay. So they're going to do that and they're going to continue that. We don't need to walk through like all the details of the exact fight weight stuff, but-

Why not just take calories way down? Why not just go to a thousand calories? My assumption is I got 10 pounds to go. I should start pulling calories way down for this whole week, right? Yeah, because this is the thing. In that first block, that's what we were focused on, right? We were focusing on nine weeks of losing body fat. To do that, we need a controlled calorie deficit. When we are manipulating this water in these different compartments...

And this is going to sound crazy to a lot of people, but you can do that independent of being in a calorie deficit. Completely independent. Completely independent, which means you don't need to be in a deficit to lose that weight. And we're not saying you're losing body fat here. All we're doing is shifting fluid out of different compartments. For example, reducing the carbohydrates and

That's an intramuscular compartment that you're taking the glycogen out and all of the associated water with it. That happens whether you're on 3000 calories, 1500 calories, as long as your carbohydrate intake is limited.

And you're removing that glycogen that will happen. Yeah. Water's in three places for the most part, right? So you're saying like these different compartments of intracellular, interstitial, and then like plasma, right? So we have it in there. We don't want to be taking it out of blood. Yeah, exactly. That's a problem, right? So take it out of the cells first, take it out of the space, and then ideally don't go to the vessels at all. All right. So we're going to do that. I don't know if you do this or not, but I do almost every single time for years now.

our highest calorie intake will be fight week. Yeah, for sure. We're way up. Yeah.

Because you don't need to do it right. And the thing is, these guys have just trained. And what do you do every other sporting event before you compete? You do some type of taper and a load. But for fighting, we don't do that. You reduce the training, but it's to cut weight. So by increasing the calories, you're giving their body a bit more of a chance to recover. They feel better. It's more of an intake. They're not going to put on weight. You're not going to put on body fat because they're eating at their maintenance calories anyway. They're just going to feel so much better anyway.

And it's such a bad experience because the thing is you can reduce the calories as well and do all of this. It's just a way worse experience. Yeah, for sure. What we're doing for our second step is stripping all that fiber back as well. So we're taking that out of the meals

And because of doing that, we're going to remove all of the digestible, not waste product, but we call it dead weight that's in your gut. That if you just had an amazing big salad and veggie bowl two nights ago, Andy, you're probably still pushing it through, but it's just sitting there and your gut bacteria just eating it and loving it. It's a great thing, just not for this particular environment. Just very specific. Very, very. And I always make this because people will always come at me and go, you say not to eat fiber, I love fiber.

That's one of the things that I love fiber. So don't take this as don't eat fiber. It's the best. This very specific situation, we can lose a decent amount of weight by just taking it out, especially if they've habitually been eating a pretty high fiber diet, which most of our athletes do. It's just easy weight loss. Again, that will happen independent of the calories you're eating. What would my fluid intake roughly be for say Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday? Yeah. So there's a couple of different approaches you can take with this.

You can do what's called a water load, which is what a lot of fighters do, which is basically where they'll increase their fluid intake

The theory and philosophy behind it and the proposed science is that if I drink a lot of water, even right now, we drink this water, we'll probably be in the bathroom pretty quick because our body will sense, hey, there's a bit more fluid in here. We've diluted a bit of the salt. I need to get rid of it. Let's get everything back into balance. Let's go to the bathroom. So essentially, if you do that with increased fluid uptake, so if you water load, what the theory is, is that your kidneys then go, oh, there's a lot of fluid here and

I'm going to, if you think about that garage door analogy that I use for the receptors, use that for the exact same of getting water out of your kidneys and you go, okay, let's create more garage doors so we can get more fluid out. And then if I strategically 24 hours before reduce that fluid intake,

In theory, those garage doors should stay open and I should let more fluid out in that final 24 hours before your body goes, oh, wait, actually, there's not that much water coming in. Let's close these and go back to normal. So these fighters do increase their water.

The literature will tell you 100 mils per kilogram of body weight. I think that's okay if you're a smaller guy. If you get up to the middleweights, light heavyweights, heavyweights, that's a lot. What I tend to think is I go, hey, Andy, through your fight camp, you were having three liters. Let's just increase it as a percentage of that. So then if that theory works out and that's the science, all we need to do to get that response is have an above normal response.

response for you. So we don't need to go crazy because we can have a risk of hyponatremia, which is a real risk. And this has happened where people drink too much fluid too soon and it can dilute the salt in their body and they can end up having a seizure going into coma. Especially if they've cut salt out already. Exactly. So what we do is say only one liter max per hour, space it out throughout the day, about 50% more than what you've habitually been drinking during fight camp. 50% increase. Yeah. 50% increase. Okay.

And Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, I'm still consuming normal amounts of salt. Yeah. For the most part. Yeah, for the most part. And then we're going to reduce our sodium because, again, everyone has an innate sense of this. If you have a really salty meal, like you go out for Asian food or whatever, you come back, you look at the scale, you go, oh, my God. Yeah, yeah. Andy texts me and goes, dude, I'm so heavy. And you go, don't worry. Like you just had some –

I know red curry and it was way too salty. That's going to draw water into your body. The opposite is true. If we reduce our sodium intake, then we're going to flush more water out. So now you've got these three situations where we're reducing carbohydrates, reducing fiber, and we're reducing our salt. We're slowly moving fluid out. And the best part is that we're moving fluid out from these different parts of our body as well. So it's not so drastic on the system. So for about three, four days,

say Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and you've been losing between one to 2% of your body weight. We're coming down. Let's say you've lost 5% of the 10% that we need to lose. So I was 158 Monday. I wake up Thursday. I'm 153. Yeah. Pretty much maybe 152, hopefully, but it's like something like that. Exactly. Okay. And now final day, I'm going to, this is when I'm going to do a true water cut, right? This is when I'll do the, you know, get in some calories when I can.

Low weight, right? Weight is the only thing that matters at this point, right? So I want really high calorie, really light foods. Fluids are what they are. And we'll do some sort of water cutting strategy, which is ultimately it's not a huge deal. If you want a sauna, if you want a bath, it doesn't really particularly matter because you'll get that water weight off after that, right? Yeah.

At this point, the only danger we really have is kind of one thing, right? It's the only thing we really have to pay attention to at this point. Well, at this point, this is the most traditional thing when people go, oh, weight cutting, this is what they think of, is this point right here. Andy, coming into a sauna with Jordy or a bath and you're pretty dehydrated. Sweatsuit on, I'm all taped up. Exactly, and you would have seen him running on the treadmill or whatever and say we've got eight pounds. So where that eight pounds comes from is...

Not an entirely different part, but this is what you and I would classify as the dangerous part of the dehydration. And the reason why we use those three strategies before is because we can slowly move fluid out and give your body time to rebalance back through. And by the time you get here, you go, okay, we've got a lot of weight to move out. This is going to get me pretty dehydrated, but we're going to do this in a very smart way. So Andy, you've come in, we've got eight pounds to go. What I now need to do is for you to sweat it out.

We need to sweat it out. And then we go, okay, how does that happen? Like you said, there's a few options here. We've got sauna, we've got a bathtub, or you can exercise. And then I guess this is my entire job for the last six years is figuring out, okay, what's the safest way to do this with these guys? And to do this, you need to understand, okay, what's the goal?

The goal here is that if we want to sweat, we've got to raise core body temperature. We've got to get it to a point and we need to keep a consistent sweat rate so that over X amount of time, ideally the shortest amount of time possible, we're losing these eight pounds. No more, no less. I can take Andy down to the scales. We can weigh in and then I can strategically do the reverse of everything. Start putting the fluid back in, the carbs and everything.

But that is a very, very dangerous part. This is the part that I would say is by far the most dangerous of all the weight cutting. No doubt. Because when you're dehydrated...

You've already reduced what we call the plasma volume, where I spoke about it earlier, your cardiovascular system. That's all your blood networks. That's delivering oxygen, nutrients, everything to your cells. You've now reduced fluid out of there. And in order to sweat, in order to do this, we've got to take more fluid from there. And we're taking eight pounds, which is quite a lot. And the crazy thing about this, Andy, and you and I both share this philosophy is that

The human body is extremely resilient to dehydration. So before you go on, you just said eight pounds is a lot. It sounds like a lot to the normal person. In our world, that's like, I'm pretty happy. You're very happy because the alternative to that, Andy, is that you didn't

go in with any strategy. And instead of having to do eight pounds, you've had to do 15 pounds or 12 pounds, whatever it was. Which are numbers we've both seen many times and done. And if I'm saying eight pounds is quite dangerous, then 15 pounds is extremely dangerous. So this is why, and a lot of where that fluid comes from is the plasma volume, which is the fluid in our blood.

So it will start coming out of that space. And what's even worse in this area is that for our body to cool, if this core body temperature is going up, the goal of sweating is for this sweat to evaporate into this environment

And that causes a mass cooling effects and my core body temperature comes down. The problem is when you're in a sauna and that sauna gets past a very low number, give it, I think it's 45 degrees, that evaporative process does not occur. And this is where you see what we call the drip. You see a lot of fighters with credit cards and they're going, this is great. This is great. Look at it. And it's like, it's not great because what you're now doing is you're heating the body up, but there's no process for cooling. Right.

So you're serving the purpose of getting this eight pounds of fluid off, but now you're entering this arena where my core body temperature is getting very hot and we're entering into this heat stroke and potentially heat exhaustion arena. And this is the biggest problem we see with weight cutting. Very, very routine to see these guys getting heat stroke in a sauna,

laying on the ground, convulsing, throwing up, and then their team's dragging them out, being like, you okay? And then be like, oh, we've got two pounds to go. Get them back in there. And you go, oh my God. And the reality is people have died. People have died doing it. And that's the thing is it's not necessarily the dehydration that's killing them. It's the complications that have come from being so dehydrated in that hot environment. It's

Not getting hot. That is your ultimate key. You will keep sweating for a really long time. Because in reality, how hot do you have to get to start sweating? Just above. So if you're- Just above your resting temperature, right? I don't know what's in Fahrenheit, but 37 degrees Celsius. You go 37.1, your body goes, oh, it's hot. Let's figure this out. Last kind of question on this. Is there a number in terms of heat? Because we test this. I know you do as well. I've seen you post about this. We are measuring temperature at all times.

Like this is all they care about. Is there a number on average that you're like, okay, this is where we got too hot. Even if the person goes, oh no, I feel good. Oh good. You're like, no, no, pull them down because we don't want to cross this temperature threshold. Is there a number you look for where you start to get concerned maybe? Yeah. I mean, the literature says 40. If you're getting an internal heat of 40, then you get in the danger zone. Whether or not the equipment we're using, we're using the same equipment that the UFC Performance Institute's using as well. Whether or not it's accurate. Yeah.

At least it's consistently inaccurate with the same athletes. That number, that seems to be the zone where even if this guy's extremely tough, they've done heaps of weight cuts. If it goes above 38.5 on this particular machine, in reality, maybe it is 40. But let's just say if it's at this point and the principle stays the same,

everything gets really tough. And my theory is that you can be the toughest guy in the world, but as soon as your body hits that, you go into emergency, get me out of here zone. And I guess this is where the conversation, you see this a lot in endurance sports too, when they're running in hot, humid environments, what do they do? They heat acclimate.

And what the theory is, and we do this with our UFC fighters and Charles Stull at the UFC PI does this as well. I'm sure you do it as well, Andy. Of course, yeah. You heat acclimate to slow the rate at which you hit this point. This is prior to weight cutting. Prior. You're doing this for four weeks minimum beforehand. You're getting used to heat. Yeah, exactly. So you're trying to, instead of going directly like this and hitting that 38.5 or 40, whatever number that is really fast,

You're slowing that curve and you're slowing the rate at which you hit that by heat acclimating, which is exposing yourself to the heat. What you're doing is you're bringing your sweat on faster and you're changing the composition of your sweat. Both of those things, what they're doing is making you more efficient and it's slowing the rate at which you reach

that critical get me the hell out of here point. Yeah, fully agree. We're going to leave this and finish this thing up. But before we do that, I probably should have started this portion of the conversation with it. And I want to make it really crystal clear my feelings and allow you to do the same thing. But I don't like the weight cut. I don't want, I'm not promoting it. I don't want anyone to do this. If I was in charge of all combat sports, I would either ban it or change the rules.

I don't know anyone that actually does this work that feels differently. Am I correct in assuming you feel the same way? No, it's the worst. It's the worst part about this sport. I don't want to do this at all. Yeah. So I hope that wasn't that tone that we had of sort of the positivity wasn't interpreted that way. Unfortunately, this is a necessary evil that you and I deal with across multiple sports, right? The last thing I want to ask you about before we get on out of here is kind of going a very different direction. And that is really...

If somebody is not one of these extreme weight cut examples, which is most people and other things, and they listen to all this feeling for performance and they say, okay, great. Like I want to do better in my workouts, but I also need to be lowering calories. I need to lose some body fat. Can you give us some guidance on how we would structure? Because you said these things about kind of putting stuff around, but can you give me more detail about

How I can maybe manage my calories in and around my workouts while still then being at a caloric deficit so I can feel good, train well, but then also lose my weight over time. Yeah. Two big things to understand here is that your training nutrition gets more important as the volume and intensity goes up.

And when I say that, I mean, and I'm not saying that if you do work out, say 30 minutes a day, five days a week, that it's not important. It's incredibly important for your health and your longevity that you do do that. It's just that it's not the same as if you were training for three hours a day, five days a week, where say with Ned or these UFC guys, we really have to dial that back in. Probably not super important for the average person doing a 30 minute elliptical workout.

to have to get 100 grams of carbohydrate in during that. Exactly right. In fact, the answer would be zero. So if you're coming to me and you're saying, hey, I want to lose some weight, I want to do it for these reasons, these are my goals, I am able to work out, say, 30 minutes a day, five days a week, the first thing I'm looking at then is I'm going, the biggest gains that you're going to get is from your overall day-to-day quality of diet.

Let's have a look at that. Let's have a look at that first and foremost. And again, Andy, I know it's boring and I'm saying it over and over again, but it's going through that checklist. And the first and foremost, first thing you need to do is understand how many calories you need. And if we're saying, okay, that equation that we had body weight times 40, what we can safely say is if you just do that body weight times 30 is a good starting point. But like we spoke about, try it.

really truly understand what you're putting in and then see how much you lose because that's the biggest mistake people make. By far and wide, it's not

Do I need to cut carbohydrates? Do I need more protein? Do I need fat? Do I need to fast? It's simply, you don't understand how many calories you're truly getting in because at the end of the day, as much as there's all of this confusion about calories in calories out, what constitutes it, all these different philosophies, calories in calories out is a real thing. You can't change thermodynamics. What, what,

you can change is your behaviors, your relationship with food, the food you're actually eating. They're all the things that are going to influence this calories in way more. So what you need to understand is one, how many calories do I need to be in a true deficit? I'll say that again, true deficit. And two, do I have a system to accurately track that? So for the, I hate this word, average person though,

What should I dial in first? My kind of pre, mid, post workout fueling or my daily nutrition strategy? Yeah, I would say daily for sure. I would say figure out what those calories are and go through this process. And like I said, the most important thing you're going to need is protein. So I would say if you're going to lose fat, protein is phenomenal for it. Out of all these buckets, yeah, we can store it in muscle to an extent, but you can't largely store it.

And the way that protein works is that it takes a lot of energy to burn it and to metabolize it. So if you have a higher protein diet, you're going to burn more calories by going through that energy source. So if you can have a high protein diet under a really well calorie controlled diet, that's setting you up for success.

for success. And then it just comes down to personal preference. Do you like the fats? Do you like carbs? And then you say, okay, I am training and you know what? I'm finding these 30 minute sessions quite difficult. I find it a lot easier if I have a bit of carbs beforehand. I'll go, okay, that's fine. Let's work out what your daily carbs are. Let's use those same principles to work out. Are you getting the amount of fiber? More likely than not, even if you're gone 1600 calories, we can find that

120 calories, which is 30 grams of carbs in that diet, which is also a medium banana for you to have before your training. Whether or not that's going to give you the big, huge training adaptation that we're trying to get with a UFC champion or ultra endurance world champion, probably not relevant. But if that makes you feel good and if that makes that 30 minute training session a really high quality session and you burn an extra 100 calories because you're super motivated on the elliptical,

Let's do it. Is it completely necessary?

Probably not. But if that's what you need to feel good in that training session, by all means, let's do it. But it all comes down to personal preference. And I know people don't like it because they want you to be able to say, do this exact keto diet, eat this exact eating window and hit this exact macro split and you'll lose weight. The reality is it's just way more boring than that. It's way more individual and you need to find what works. And the thing is, you need to find what works consistently.

Yeah. Can't thank you enough, man, coming all the way up here. I know it was a long flight. You've shared so many things. I took a lot away from this. I actually learned a ton about the fueling stuff. I mean, I follow everything you do and we're in the same sport and I've learned a ton over the years of the weight cut stuff. But more importantly than that is the actual numbers and the fueling strategies.

And transferring over from science to application and how do we cross that barrier? So it's been a really informative conversation. I know a ton of people will take a bite out of this. So, man, I can't appreciate and thank you enough for being here today, as well as all the other stuff you've done over the years. So it's such a pleasure. Thanks so much for having us, Andy.

I hope you learned from and enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. If you want to learn more about Jordy, his services, books, and working with him directly and following along with the free education that he provides, I would encourage you to check out the links that are provided directly in our show notes to all of those and more.

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