S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
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In the months that we were reporting on the Sophie Hartman case, we reached out to dozens of potential sources to try and get as complete a picture about this case as possible. And while a number of people had quite a lot to say, the majority of them didn't feel comfortable going on record.

And listen, I get it. There's nothing in it for anybody to talk to me. I always hope that people will be willing to speak up on behalf of the kids, but everyone has to evaluate their risk in getting involved. And I respect that. But then, last fall, I heard from someone that I wasn't even aware of.

And last week, that person decided that she wanted to go on the record. I've been out and about doing stuff for the book the last couple of weeks, and a lot of folks have been asking me how I handle being so knee-deep in all this dark stuff all the time. And the reality is, it can be hard, but it's also extremely rewarding a lot of the time, especially in those moments where I know that the show has reached someone who really needed to hear it.

And while I bear witness to an awful lot of horrific behavior in this line of work, I also get to witness people like Chalice, who we're talking to today, make the incredibly brave choice to see the truth and speak up. And that's what keeps me going. So without further ado, please meet my brave friend, Chalice Howard. I wanted to start just by asking you, how do you know Sophie Hartman? How did you two meet? Yeah, so Sophie and I met...

Back in 2015, we connected online through an adoptive parents Facebook group, I believe. Something of that nature. We had both spent time overseas, specifically. I had spent time in East Africa. And we had a lot of mutual friends on Facebook. So, yeah, we had connected, I believe, the summer of 2015. And then met in person the following summer when she was over on the East Coast. So...

And what was your relationship with her throughout these past 10 years? Honestly, I...

would have said until very recently that she was one of my closest friends. She, it was a long distance relationship, but we, our girls are the same ages. Um, and we both, I adopted my girls through the foster care system. I live in Charleston, South Carolina, and her girls are obviously from overseas, but we were both white moms raising kids of color. Um, and so, um,

And single moms. And so if anybody could understand the nuances and the unique struggles of being a single parent to two little girls from trauma, it was Sophie. And yeah, I mean, we talked on a weekly basis for almost the past decade.

If you can go back, and I know you've been on a real journey, so it can be hard to put yourself back in that mindset. But if someone would have asked you before all of this, who is Sophie? What is she like? What do you think you would have said about her? It's such a mind warp to go back. It's so hard to think about myself unknowing what I know now. But if you had asked me even last September, October, December,

I would have said that Sophie is one of my best friends, a loving and devoted mom, someone who has been through unspeakable trials and has been tested and tried and proven faithful. I am in a really different, more evolved place of faith, but I'm still deeply a person of faith. And so we had a connection through our shared faith life.

If anybody had asked me about Sophie, I probably would have immediately gotten emotional because I was so proud of her and proud of watching her walk through the fire for so many years. And yeah, I mean, there's...

There's a lot now knowing what I know. There's a lot more red flags that have come to the surface. But I believed the best. And my experience of her was that she was someone who just could really hang on when hope was thin. Yeah.

And, you know, obviously, given that you've known Sophie for 10 years, you knew her when this case with her younger daughter, C, and this investigation was happening. And you even came out to the Seattle area to visit with her during that. Is that right? Yeah, twice. And what was your...

Yeah. So I remember exactly where I was when I got a Facebook message from Sophie saying it's an emergency. Please call me. And I think it was maybe a day after the girls were taken after CPS had come.

um and you know all of her things have been taken her phone and her computer so it took her a while to be able to get in touch with people um but she had eventually gotten to a friend's been able to log into Facebook and said like here's the number to call me at call me um and when she said it's an emergency call me and it was kind of an odd circumstance um I immediately thought the worst because I thought that something horrible had happened to see I thought she had

I remember calling Sophie and she was just kind of monotone, like in shock. And she was just like, they took the kids. They took the kids. CPS came and took the kids. And I was during the pandemic. I was in the middle of my work day. And I remember like, it felt like the walls around me were like shifting. I was just like, what? And then she was like, they think I'm lying about everything.

they took the kids. And I mean, I think we just sat on that call with like the silence and the chaos of it all. And I just kept saying like, no, no, no. Like this is impossible. What's happening? No. Like I had so many questions, but didn't even know how to formulate them. But I think she may have even said something like, I was always afraid this could happen. Um,

And, yeah, my understanding was, oh, my gosh, I had known that all through the years she had been seeing all of these symptoms in C that no one else was seeing, the doctors weren't picking up on. And so, yeah, I thought, wow, this has really happened, like,

She's always been working so hard to get people to see what she's, to see her life, see what she lives with on a daily basis. And it's come to this. They have really taken her kids and think that she's lying. So yeah, that's what I thought had happened. And you know, you mentioned that when you got this phone call that the first place that your mind went was that something terrible had happened to see and you

You know, we talked a lot about what Sophie had communicated about how precarious C's health was to many of the people in her life. What was your understanding of C's condition? That it was life-threatening. She had...

this horrible neurological disease called AHC. And the line that I heard over and over was she could leave us at any time. She could leave us at any time. Um, any episode could put her into any kind of organ failure. And, um, at that point episodes were happening on daily weekly basis. Um, hospitalizations where they're regular. Um, and so, um,

Yeah. I mean, it was horrific, but it wasn't, I was kind of preparing myself in being friends with Sophie that anything could happen at any time and see could be gone. And yeah, it was just this really fragile tension we lived in, you know, it's really wild to be friends with someone whose child is in a medically fragile position that they're just kind of always hanging in the balance. Um,

But, you know, we celebrated the good days and I just tried to be present as much as I could from afar on the bad days, which were a lot. When Sophie would tell you, none of these doctors are taking this seriously, like this is, I'm, you know, and even the sort of narrative of like, I'm the only one who's seeing this.

Did that, like, how did that strike you? Like, did that, did anything seem strange about that to you at the time? Or were you just sort of thinking, oh, like, this is something that happens, like, you know, where doctors don't take something seriously or they dismiss a mother's concerns? What was your sort of take on that at the time? I mean, honestly, I was completely, I was totally bought in.

And I, you know, my partner now is a pediatric occupational therapist. And so, you know, our relationship goes back over the past five or six years. And as a pediatric OT, you know, she, she's in a position where there's oftentimes that she will interact with, she sees kids on a, you know, some of her kids she sees once or twice a week. And so she'll see things that the pediatrician may not see, or she'll see things that other doctors don't see. And she,

at times can be an advocate for a parent in those situations and, you know, communicate to doctors what she's seeing through a therapeutic lens. And so because Sophie was always in crisis, I see now that I just learned to not ask a lot of questions. I didn't really have any reason at that time to question. Yeah, I just thought this is something that they're missing. And I also knew like she homeschooled her kids and

They weren't necessarily out and about as much. I think my family and I have a much more social life and my kids were in public school. And so, you know, I was just like, oh, you know, well, their life is a little bit isolated. So it makes sense that nobody else is seeing what she's seeing. She's providing the best environment for C being there for her 24 seven, keeping her in a safe environment. So I just kind of rationalized, like, I guess that's why nobody else sees it. Yeah. Yeah.

And as far as the girls, you know, and you mentioned that you have girls the same age, and did you get to spend much time with the two of them? Yeah. Surprisingly, yes. We were literally on opposite sides of the country, but...

That summer of 2016, they were on the East Coast and they came and spent a few days with us. And that just kind of kicked off like what felt like such a like dream come true of a friendship. Like we spent probably three or four days together. They came to our home. We went all around Charleston. And, you know, we always said like we're twin families. Everyone has a buddy like Sophie and I have each other, C and my daughter, Myla, and

you know, were buddies and then Em and Aaliyah. And that was pretty dreamy, you know? And so, um, we saw them that summer. And then, um, I think the following year they came to the East coast again for treatment for C at Duke. And then we made it a, um,

a tradition that we would spend that time with them when they would be over here and kind of go and, you know, brighten those days where they would see would be getting treatment at Duke. And, um, yeah, it was an opportunity for us to spend time together. We'd get matching outfits for our girls. It was always, we'd make it a big deal for C. So it was like a fun thing. She and Milo, you know, we'd stay in a hotel and she and my daughter Milo would have matching jammies and we got them little matching jean jackets and it

It was just like this fun thing. It's like, oh, we're going to make like this big scary Duke trip, like fun. And that was such a joy to do that. And our girls like C and Myla are just like the funniest little quirkiest peas in a pod. And they adore each other. They're weird, really matches each other in the best way. So yeah, we did that for a couple of years and then, yeah,

We just a few years ago, we went on a vacation together there again. They're back on the East coast and we went to Myrtle beach and stayed a few days in an Airbnb, um,

And in between all of those in-life, in real life connections, our kids would FaceTime constantly all the time, especially our little girls. They could just hand over my phone. They'd go set up in their rooms and they'd like play through the phone and give each other tours of each other's rooms and introduce their dogs. And they could just gab and gab and gab forever. And so, yeah, it's it was long distance, but it was fun.

It was very real. And we really came to know each other's kids. And I mean, sometimes I'd call, Sophie would call and my daughter, my little one would see, oh, it's Sophie calling. And she'd answer the phone and she'd be like, I'm talking to her, you know, and they'd go off and talk in the other room. And we prioritized the friendship because it was so special. It was so unique. That's like,

What are the odds? Like Sophie and I are maybe a year apart. Our kids are all a year apart. And yeah, again, everybody had a buddy. So.

Yeah. That's really sweet. Yeah. I mean, I like one of my best friends has a daughter that's a few years older than my daughter, but they are super buddies and like it truly it's the dream, right? Like when you have like, otherwise you kind of have to like try and make friends with the parents of whoever your kid makes friends with. And that's a whole, you know, uh, that's a whole crapshoot. So yeah, I totally understand why that would be, especially because you and Sophie had all these like unique things in common with like the transracial adoption and,

you know, being people of faith and all of that. This is one of the only times I've made a season and told the story without, like, without starting with a direct source. And I think one of the hardest things for me about covering this was that I did not want CNM to be reduced to, like,

sort of characters from a true crime drama. And most of what we know about them was from Sophie's narrative about them. When sort of with M, the gymnastics stuff was the most prevalent. And then with C, obviously, the story of illness and the story of her impending death was really the story that Sophie told in, you know, the documents and accounts that we had.

Sounds like you really love these girls. And I mean, can you tell us like from your perspective, like just a little bit more about who they are? Yeah. This will make me pretty emotional because they are so special. They are such special little girls. Em is so bright and so thoughtful and so...

She's always been an amazing writer. And when they were homeschooled, like especially over the pandemic, when she would do different writing assignments, she would, Sophie would send them to me or she would call and read them. I mean, just amazing.

She has such a gift of writing and articulating her thoughts. And she's, you know, been through so much in her little life. And she's just fun and funny and has such a pure heart. She was obviously a gymnast, so she's just tough as nails. And, yeah.

Yeah. You know, when our kids were together, like I remember she would watch all these tutorials and how to do her makeup on YouTube. And then when we went on that little trip together in Myrtle Beach, she did my daughter's makeup. And I remember her telling Aaliyah like just how beautiful she looked. And she's just full of so much light and just to like love on my kid. And she's really special. Like she's the kind of kid like...

When you talk to her, you're just like, oh, you're a deep well, you know? And so she's really cool. And yeah, she's such a gift. See, again, we would just always get the biggest kick of how...

weird and wonderful our little ones were they're just like typical second borns like just off the rails like just anything that comes to their head is coming out of their mouth um and yeah she had had and has I'm hoping guessing a vibrancy about her and a silliness and um

Just so many things that she's into. And yeah, she's such a cutie and so sweet. I mean, both girls are just overwhelmingly sweet and fun to be around and thoughtful. And yeah, they're pretty special. Thank you for sharing that. It's really nice to just hear some stuff about who they are as people. So,

Tell us where this takes a turn. How did you come to find out about the podcast? Yeah, so back in the fall, Sophie had actually reached out to me and told me about the podcast and said that she had found out that different people in her life were being contacted because she was being investigated for...

this podcast that was going to come out. And it's another one of those moments, like, I remember where I was sitting and I just thought, gross, like, how horrific. Like, who is going to dig into her life? Like, they are recovering from so much. They've just been through hell and back and it's

I was there when everything was released to the media and seeing your dear friend on the headlines with the most horrific headlines is just like a gut punch. And so I thought, man, they've been coming in for a landing the last couple of years since this whole case. And now here it goes again. I was so angry and I talked to my partner about it. And I remember saying like,

you know, this sick podcast is going to be delving into her story and don't listen to it. We're not going to give them another single listen. Like we can't do that. And, um, my partner who's a little more level-headed, um, it's like, you know, if, if Sophie's going to be investigated on this podcast and it has the potential to really, uh,

mess with her life. Like we, like, is this some little known podcast that like 10 people are going to listen to it? What is it like? Let's find out. And so, um, we did start listening to it. I definitely did not tell Sophie I was doing that, but I thought, yeah, what is this whole thing? Um, and so I started at season one. And so, um,

this would be the beginning of the end because that whole time back in the fall is kind of a blur in my mind. Because as I start listening, it is undeniable how the moms in the seasons that you are covering just feel so familiar and eerily familiar. And just like, even as I'm listening, I'm like,

This is weird that it's similar because they couldn't be any more different than Sophie. Like all throughout the process of beginning to educate myself on what actually is Munchausen by proxy and how does this manifest and what does it actually look like? I still had some cognitive dissonance. You know, I knew I was listening to this podcast out of protection for my friend.

And to know what she was about to be up against. And I've told you, Andrea, like I went in wanting to hate it. And was immediately struck by your sincerity and love.

the warmth and the kindness in your voice. You sounded like someone I would be friends with, which was weird. So then I went through this whole wrestling of like, "Oh, this really sucks. This must just be someone who's like, has a good heart and is on a good mission, but is getting it wrong." You know, maybe she's gotten it right in these other cases, but like, she's gotta be, this is wrong. She's all wrong here. And

But I didn't stop listening. I couldn't stop listening. And over the course of the next week or two, like my world just started to cave in because every red flag that I had been suppressing for so long just came into clear view. And especially listening alongside my partner, we're both just kind of looking at each other like, why? Why does it feel like she's used a playbook? Why does it feel like

What's happening? What is happening? How is it possible? This is my friend. This is my like, this is like a hero of a friend who's only, you know, been overcoming all of these hardships. It's just, it's hard. Even now it's, it's hard to even put words to, but yeah.

there was just the most disturbing similarity between some of the narcissistic behaviors of the moms that you investigated. And when I could zoom out and look objectively, which I still don't really know how I did that. I think the evidence was presented to me in a deeply compelling educational way. And I,

yeah, it just all started to click and it was horrible. My children are six and two and both of them perennially have no appetite for actual meals while having a bottomless appetite for snacks. Snacks before dinner? Yes. After dinner? Also yes. Actual dinner? No ma'am.

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So Sophie told you about the podcast, but she didn't tell you whose sister I was, did she? No. No.

No, I'm just listening to the podcast. And I skipped around a lot because I knew about the Kowalski case. So I'm like, okay, she's covering this Hopi Bar case. I don't really know that much about this person, but I am kind of interested in her take on the Kowalski case. So I think I was just jumping around a lot kind of chaotically looking at like, you know, the titles of the different episodes like this.

looking for one that's going to be so outlandish that I could just drop this podcast and be done and be like, okay, that's just some salacious, like somebody on a bent to, you know, get a lot of hits for their true crime podcast. So I was jumping all over and I knew that you had this sister, you know, and that was also like a really compelling piece of it. It's like, oh, well this has happened to her family, you know? So she's probably, um, she probably sees it more than most people does because she's had to live through this, you know, or whatever. Um,

But again, remember exactly where I was when you said the name Megan Carter. And just, I like sank to the floor in the kitchen. It's like putting away dishes, listening with my AirPods. And Megan Carter was a hero to me. Megan Carter was someone who had carried my friend. I flew out to Seattle, maybe five,

three weeks after Sophie's kids got taken away and she was in a transitional living situation in a friend's basement. And I went and stayed with her there. And, you know, it was all so fresh. They had just retained a lawyer and, you know, the kids had just come out of foster care and been placed with her parents. So everything, it was just fresh wreckage everywhere. And, um,

We're just trying to see a path forward. I was there the weekend that she first met with her attorneys, with Adam Shapiro, and that all happened while I was there. So it's very new, but I had heard, oh my gosh, we've retained this attorney who has done one of these cases before. And there's been a mom just like this, who's been falsely accused and that lives right in the area. And I just thought,

What provision from God? Like, here's another mom who's been through this. And so immediately, Megan was someone who was going to be a pillar of hope for Sophie. I remember Sophie telling me the number of days that her kids had been taken away. And so it kind of gave Sophie this

anchor of, you know, you're just in panic mode. Like when am I going to get my kids back? And so Megan was able to say, this is going to be a long process and, and you got to suit up and get your head in the game, but you can win this thing. And I just remember thinking, what a gift of grace that she has someone who's gone before her and can be this beacon of hope.

And I read about Megan's story online and I knew the names of her kids. And, you know, I would have, I would get picture. I would check in on Sophie after I left Seattle and there would be selfies of her and Megan, you know, that it's like, Oh, an unexpected friendship, you know, out of all of this horrificness. And so I'm listening to this podcast, but was so deeply moved by your story and what your family had gone through and

And so when I heard Megan Carter, when I had to grapple with Megan Carter is not who I thought she was. Maybe Megan Carter is not a hero. Oh, my God. I came upstairs. I came to...

My partner was getting ready for bed, washing her face, and I was just like, you have to sit down. And I remember just trying to explain. It's so hard to explain. I feel like in a way it sounds like I'm being really dramatic. I hit the floor and I can't think. But when you find out that someone is not who you thought they were, it flips your world on its head. And...

Yeah, I just was like, I mean, Rachel knew the name Megan Carter because Megan Carter was a hero and someone who stood by the Hartman family. And yeah, that was really when it all kind of, there was no going back at that point. No, I mean, you're right. It's absolutely earth shattering when you find something like this out. And yeah.

That is just like, I think, a deeply shared experience for everyone who goes through a case, right? It's just like, yeah, it's one of those things where you remember exactly where you were. You know, there's like a before and after of your whole life with that kind of thing. So at some point, I get an email that was sent to like the, you know, general email box for

the show and it was anonymous. But I thought, oh, this has to be about Sophie. Can you tell me like what made you decide to reach out to me directly? I remember sending that message on Instagram and I think I said something like, I have been listening to your podcast. I'm trembling writing this. I feel like nothing but a traitor, but I can't

refute what's been presented through your podcast. And I believe that you're investigating my friend. And I just needed to connect. Like I needed more answers and I needed some things confirmed. And so I remember initially saying,

I sent a message on Instagram and then you can like unsend. So I like sent it and I like unsent it like an hour later, just like in a panic. Like, what am I doing? This is, this is Sophie. Like I can't, I can't do this. I just remember sending and unsending that and I would send it and I'd be like, no, this is the next right step. I have to,

I have to dig deeper. I have so many questions. I was still just like, maybe I'll connect with Andrea and I'll find out she's full of shit or she'll be like really invasive or I don't know. I don't know what I was hoping for. I think part of me wanted answers and part of me wanted to just be able to throw the whole thing out. I just remember like weeping in between all of that thinking like I felt like such a traitor. I remember I said that in my email, like this feels like,

awful and evil. Like, how could you? And, you know, I kept asking myself, well, why don't you just go to Sophie? Like, tell her what you've heard and like, go to your friend. Like, this is your friend. You share so much. And I knew that I couldn't do that. I knew somehow that bringing it up would be bad news. And so, yeah, I, I finally sent that email and, um,

you know, sent it anonymously and said that I wanted to completely keep my anonymity. And you told me that you took that part of your job really seriously. And, um, yeah, that was the, the reaching out. Yeah. And then so shortly after that, uh, message came in, we got on the phone and, um,

I think we talked for like, I don't even like two and a half hours. Maybe we talked for a long time. It was at least two or three hours. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I mean, it was just really extraordinary to hear from you. You know, I'm, I'm like, I'm aware that like my voice is going out into the world without me and that people are listening to it. And, you know, you hope it, you hope it moves people. And one of the things that I always hope is I'm like,

I hope this show reaches the people it needs to reach, right? Like that's the whole point of it, right? And so I was very moved by the fact that it reached you. And it is deeply ironic that Sophie is the person who made that happen. Right. Yeah, it was kind of amazing to like just have these like lengthy conversations. I mean, the reality is not everyone is.

most people, in fact, don't deal with coming to this realization, like, the same way that I did, right? Because we had really parallel experiences of, I really remember, you know, like, that conversation with my parents, where we finally sat down and, like, said the thing and said what it was. I remember having that conversation with my parents, where we finally just said it all out loud. And

It was. It was like a tear in the fabric of the universe, you know? Yeah. And then we were grappling with what to do next. And I felt all those same things that, you know, you have gone through, feeling like a traitor, feeling like I was betraying her.

knowing that there was no possibility of sort of confronting her directly about it because I think I suspect maybe you have had some similar experiences with Sophie because it sounds like you knew that, right? But it's like when someone you're really, really close to, you would hopefully be able to sort of sit down with them and say like, hey, man, I'm having these feelings and I'm just like I need to talk this through because you can't sort of have that like boulder of doubt, you know, in the middle of your friendship. Right.

Like, yeah, I'd had enough previous experiences with trying to sort of confront my sister on things or sort of trying to, you know, like, like, hold her accountable in some way or like asking her questions when I had questions and getting that shut down and being dealt with this like really emotional, you know, how could you reaction that I knew that like that wasn't a possibility. And so we just had like such a common experience, I think, with that. Right, right.

Just like you, I was like, well, but like, I don't see how there's any other option but to try and do now whatever I can to sort of protect the kids. And I think especially because you were close to Sophie and in touch with Sophie and were someone who had a relationship with the girls,

I was very concerned while I was making this season that there was, you know, it's unlike the other seasons of the show where I've made, where I've been making it with the family members, with people who are in contact with the survivors or victims or what have you. And, you know, the...

cases I've covered previously, even the Myakwalski case, those children were out of danger, right? And like, that is not how we, either of us, I think now see this situation. And so I think it was a huge relief for me to have someone that could see how this family was doing because

I do care about how my reporting impacts the people it covers. I care about that a lot. And I did feel conflicted to some degree about the fact that I was covering this without the participation of the family and without the consent of the girls, right? And that does feel different for me than the other stories I've covered. And I think that was why we took, you know, again, measures to like...

obscure their identities as much as we could and all that. But it felt nonetheless important to cover it, especially because there was this lawsuit that Sophie was waging. And also because I felt that this was another situation where people understood this to be a false accusation.

And that wasn't what the evidence showed. And I just thought, especially with the sort of climate that's been created with the Kowalski case, I just thought, I better cover this before Netflix gets a hold of it. You know, really. And so I think it was a tremendous relief to have contact with you. And so, you know, for a number of months, we were in touch, well, you were still in touch with Sophie. And I know that was really...

for you. Can you kind of talk through what that experience was like and what our conversations were around that, why we decided to sort of go about things that way? Yeah. So it's been such a wild past four months because even as I'm coming to terms with the truth and even as I'm looking at our not so distant past, my relationship with Sophie, and I'm thinking about how

different things that have been said or different diagnoses that have been mentioned or different crises that have come up. And as I'm realizing this is what they do, this is what these perpetrators do, there is always a crisis. And let me tell you, in 10 years of friendship, there was always a crisis. It was not always C. And so even as I'm starting to realize that I've been lied to, that I've been dragged along for this

crazy ride that she takes everyone on at that point. And today I still love this person. I do feel deeply protective of her children, you know, as I'm finding these things out and I want to make sure that I can advocate for them or maintain contact or like keep this open door for their sake. But

You can't just flip a switch. Like this is someone who I have built relationship with, who I have shared deeply troubling seasons of my own with. And so that was so tough. But the hope was let's keep this relationship open to keep access to the girls available and to keep a safe person who knows the truth in their life.

And that was the hope was that somehow it helped that there was distance physically. We could do what we'd always done, which is our kids can FaceTime. And, you know, there's like all this. It's like now that I look back, you know, you and I were trying to handle this thing as like prudently and carefully as possible, given the circumstances, right?

but there was still this part of me that's like, maybe my kids like don't have to know and they can keep the, their relationships with their friends. These are their friends. These are girls that they can talk to about what it's like to have a white mom. These are girls that, you know, they have connected in a deep way with about, you know, not getting to stay in their family of origin and all of the trauma that comes from being an adoptee and

You know, those friendships were rich and important. And so there was this hope that like we can stay the course for the sake of the girls and I can just play the part, whatever that looks like, with the hope that.

I mean, I knew it couldn't go on forever. You can't maintain a friendship where you know you're being constantly lied to and attempted, you know, all this manipulation. But there was the hope that there would be a point where we would visit again, that we would see each other and that I would be able to tell Mike, I see you and I believe you and I'm here and I don't hate your mom.

But I know, I know what's happening. And I'm here because there will come a day where she, I hope, will see what is real and what is true. And she will need people. Like, this is in a much more intense way because this is a daughter. This is a child. But I mean, Andrea, I needed you when I was navigating this. I needed someone else to be able to say like,

You kept, I remember you kept saying to me like, yeah, this breaks your brain. This breaks your brain. I mean, I feel like so much of what I said in our phone calls probably felt so nonsensical and you just created space and held space for me to, I mean, you were so, you held space for me to talk about the things that I loved about Sophie, to work through the grief. I mean, it was like on a daily basis, it was like, where am I today? Am I back in shock? Am I back in denial? Am I back in anger? Like what's the

emotion of the day. And you have been and were such a steady friend and such. There was nothing in it for you at that point. I was like, I'm not going on the air. I'm not going on record. I'm not doing any of that stuff. But you were in it for the reasons that I had hoped you'd been in it, which is for the love of these children, for the love of vulnerable children. And

So my hope was that, you know, when her world comes crashing down one day, because all of these, this podcast will be available to her, these investigative reports, like anything she wants, if she ever digs into what suspicions I know are already there, this stuff will be available. But tragically, like even her extended family who I, I have so many good things to say about the extended Hartman family. Their hearts are

I think they are very deceived and in deep denial that is doing a lot of destruction. But they are good people. But good people is not enough. This is my next step to just reach in hopes that... I keep saying M because she's older and...

I think she could come to what I know now about the siblings of these kids who are being abused. I mean, any kid in the family like this is being at the very least psychologically, emotionally abused, if not abused in other ways. But yeah, I mean, my hand feels, it feels like M is most reachable. She'll be of a legal age sooner than C and D.

Sadly, you know, C has been given such a strong identity of disability that I can't even go there yet. Like I pray that one day she can come out of that and see who she is outside of that. But that just seems so far down the road. So my priority right now and my hope is making some sort of reach for M. Well, first of all, nothing that you have ever said to me sounded crazy, but

I find I have a lot of these conversations with folks that are in these same situations. I was like, the story is crazy. You are not crazy. And I think that is one of the...

After effects of gaslighting, right, is that you just find yourself really like grasping for reality. And yeah, having that shared experience is so powerful because even though I do now know other people who've been through it, it's still a relatively unusual experience, you know, and I was and am so concerned about it.

these girls. And like I said, I take the ethics of what I'm doing really seriously. And I don't hate Sophie either. I'm not out to get her. And so I was worried about the impact that it would have on her. And I think one of the things that like, and I really, you know, adore my team and my producer Mariah, so deeply ethical. And I really have a wonderful team, especially on this, our researcher and one of our producers, Aaron Ajayi and Nicole Hill, who worked with us on the season and just was like a really such a solid team to talk through some of these

And like, how can we best approach this? And how can we do our best to mitigate any unintended bad consequences on this family? And so it really was such a relief to be in touch with you. And I think there's this question of like, Sophie's family. And I think one of the reasons that I

Right.

is the Gypsy Rose Blanchard case where Dee Dee Blanchard really did come from this like very troubled family and there was a whole bunch of stuff about like her father. And, you know, I think that people really want there to be an explanation for why someone does these things. And they want to be like, oh, well, they were abused as a child or what have you, or they were deprived in some way or they had, you know, all these stressors. And certainly those things can contribute to child abuse as a whole, right?

medical child abuse is in sort of a different category. There is no known sort of like adverse childhood experience big connection. And I think Sophie was from such a similar family in some ways. My family is not religious, but you know, both Megan and Sophie are upper middle class white women who are very polished, very presentable, very well educated, have all those trappings. And

I, you know, and use the same very expensive attorney to get their children returned to them. It's just like that those pieces were so compelling to me and sort of like explaining how the system works the way it does. And I'm so compelled by like our family faced the same choice and we went that way and her parents went the other way.

Right.

It was really interesting talking to you about what they're like and what you've said, which is like the other people that we talked to on background for the story said the same thing. Like, this is a really nice family. Like, they're like really good people, well-liked in their community. You know, again, it would be easier, I think, if we – it would be easier if the people who were –

Enabling monstrous things were monstrous themselves. And that's not the case with the Hartmans, right? It's not. And I think one of the things, in addition to hoping that you could keep some line of communication with the girls, we were hoping that you could get through to the Hartmans. Can you talk about your conversations with Sam and your kind of attempts to maybe reach out to her?

Yeah. So my relationship with Sophie has always been long distance and her family lives in Michigan. I connected more with her family when I was out in Seattle. And, you know, they had come to Seattle to be there for her and the kids in every way through all of this. And so I, you know, I didn't, I don't know them deeply, but I know them well enough. And I kept open lines of communication with them.

As we supported Sophie over the course of what became a couple of years, I don't really know these people, but we have this mutual love for Sophie and a deep commitment to supporting her. And so I did reach out to Sam and we had a lengthy phone conversation and I did not tell her what I suspected, but I did reach out to tell her that,

you have to listen to this podcast. And Megan Carter is not who you think she is. As kind of a gauge to see, can you even hear that at all? And Sam was very kind. She is deeply kind. And I stand in such a torn place about the position of this family because on the one hand, I see them as more of Sophie's victims, more of...

People that have just been taken on a crazy train ride for at least as long as she's had the girls, but much longer than that, I know now. And so, yeah, I reached out and the general response was just like, that family has been to hell and back. If you believe that

Doctors conspired against your sister, your daughter, and took her children away, especially a medically fragile child, especially two children who have already lost their first family. One was being held in shelter in the hospital and one was put in foster care. And if you believe that narrative, how horrific, right? And so I was treading very lightly because I

This is a family who's, you know, half of them moved out to Seattle, left their lives, dropped everything to go and show up for her. And as far as I could tell, really believed it all to the nth degree. And so I know, I mean, there were times when my partner, Rachel, would say, this thing seems off about Sophie. This thing seems kind of strange. This is my partner who I love, who I is the, you know,

We'll be adopting my children when we get married and who I trust with my whole world. And even I, when she would say, that seems weird, I would get defensive. I would say, well, you don't know her. You don't know what she's been through. It's not if you knew her, you know, and I couldn't hear it. There was a time when I couldn't hear it. There was a time when I would have my suspicions. I remember initially reading the police reports and thinking, this stuff is weird. I don't, this seems off, but

I would shoo it away in light of all these other things in our friendship. I do have a very real fear of the wrath of Sophie. I have at different times throughout our friendship been cut off or been given the silent treatment for different things that I've done, always making me feel like I was the problem. I wasn't afraid of Sam. I knew calling Sam and reaching out to Sam that she would be kind and that she would listen and that she would hear me in earnest. But I knew it was a step too far to say no.

I think that Sophie is abusing your nieces. I knew that was too far and I knew it was just too much. It's too earth shattering. This was shattering my world and I am living my life separate in Charleston. Like my life could blow up, but still kind of go on when you more than anyone know, like when it is your sister, your family, what does this mean? What are the ramifications of this?

And so I couldn't say everything that I knew, but I pleaded with her. I said, listen, I don't think Andrea is who we think she is. I don't think she is on this vengeful mission to make a really great true crime podcast and deceive all of these people. I think she might be wrong about some things.

But listen to her tell the story of her sister. Listen. You have to listen. You have to listen. So remember, I sent her three episodes and I just said, will you please listen to these? Hoping that she would hear what I heard, which was undeniable. The similarities, the personality, the walking on eggshells that you have in a relationship with someone like Megan or someone like Sophie. I've said this to you, like that unspoken, do not cross her. I thought...

Maybe this will feel familiar at the very least. And she couldn't answer whether or not she would listen to the episodes. I know even bringing it all up was just, she's like, it's just so much. You know, it was People Magazine online. It was Huffington Post. It was all of these different sources. I think she felt like it's already been covered. I've seen it all. She was in trial. She's heard the opposing side.

But it is wild how you can armor yourself against the truth when you are committed to a certain narrative and committed to not betraying someone who has said in no uncertain terms, do not cross me. So that's the position she was in. Yeah, I mean, it does feel so familiar, right? Like, you think about these sort of

The things that I brushed off or the times I did defend her, you know, it was like when she had her fake pregnancy and then like somehow, like,

I managed to blame the boyfriend for that, which is like, I don't know how I made those mental leaps, but I did. Right. Cause it was just like, yeah, it was definitely cause he stressed her out and then she just faked a whole pregnancy. It's like, that's not, that's not an explanation that made sense, but emotionally to me, it made sense at the time. And then thinking back on, yeah, these periods where before she had cut me off, right. Where like, I was thinking about this

The other day because there are such frequent financial shenanigans that come up in these cases. I mean, we talked about some of that with Sophie's case, but like,

You know, previous to any of the pregnancy stuff, like actually right before the pregnancy stuff, you know, Megan had committed check fraud and my parents bailed her out. But she was very mad about it. Like she was mad that they were, I think because they were kind of trying to hold her accountable in some way. And so she was very, very upset about it. And then she got mad at me for cheating.

like, quote, siding with them. Because I was like, well, you know, you did, like, do the thing. Like, I kind of understand why they're mad. And then she didn't talk to me for, like, three months. And then when she got, quote, pregnant, that was when she got back in touch with all of us. So it was already like, oh, any attempt to, like, confront her will be seen as a betrayal. So it's like, yes, they do the wrong thing that is harmful. And then somehow everyone else has to apologize for it. It's very bizarre. But it's very, like,

believable to me that Sophie's younger sister is also in that dynamic with her and like understands that like you support their version of events 100% or you are dead to them and obviously that is what happened with you know like

I know it would have happened to Sophie's parents if they had declined to fund all of that. I presumably it would be the same thing that happened to my parents when they declined to file, help make and file a lawsuit against Seattle Children's because, you know, then they never saw their grandchild again. So, so I think, I think the fear, the fear is real, the con, you know, like that and understandable and I'm empathetic to it.

I'm not empathetic to putting that over the safety of the children. And I also think, you know, one of my sort of lingering questions, and I think you have some insight into this because you have been sort of on both sides of it, believing the narrative and then seeing the reality is,

Is that, you know, Sam and presumably their mom and to some extent their dad, you know, were sitting in this trial, heard those doctors present, saw that evidence, have seen everything that I have seen and that you have seen and much more. Because all of this took place in family court. And so there is presumably a large amount of evidence that has not made it into the public record or at least a large amount of narrative that hasn't made it into the public record. And...

You know, you mentioned seeing these reports in the press, reading some of the charging documents.

like you're a very smart thoughtful person um you're not a person that would you know read to me as someone who just like hops on board with the conspiracy theory of the week and yet this narrative of medical kidnapping right and you'd said even you'd seen sort of the maya story before you'd encountered the show and everything and sort of thought oh that there's another example and you saw my sister's case and you were like oh there's another example

which is like how confirmation bias works for all of us. But like, why do you think that made sense to you? Like, how did you sort of like see it in a different light? Yeah. If you're familiar with the Enneagram, I'm a two, I'm like a helper, like deeply empathetic. And I think when you grow up middle class, upper middle class, you live in a separate reality than a lot of people. And so at one point in my life,

I remember when I was 16, I was teaching dance at my dance academy. I was really involved there. And I found out that one of the moms was being horrifically abused. And I was made privy to a lot of information. I realize now at 16, I shouldn't have been. But this mom was confiding in me. And that was the first time I realized horrible things happen to people. People without resources are really screwed. And

People don't believe victims like people don't believe women. And so that, that was like a cracking for me. And then I don't know, just my life circumstances took me to kind of realize, Oh my gosh, I've, I've lived in kind of an idyllic world where we have enough money to pay for groceries. And I've never worried about my electricity getting cut off. And, you know, I, I,

He reads the hunger games. You're like, Oh, I like kind of live in the Capitol. You know, like I just live in a world where things work out for people. And then you're introduced to a world where things don't work out for people. And people do go from one horrific trial to the next. And, you know, as I became a foster parent and as I worked at a sex trafficking safe home or volunteered for a time, like I just had these different experiences where I'm like,

Horrible things happen and people do stand by and listen and, and know, and they don't do anything, you know? And so, yeah, I just sorted it into one of those things that like horrible things happen, you know? And I accidentally placed Sophie with a ton of privilege into a category of, um,

people whose lives really can just keep spiraling out of control without resources because of the color of their skin or because of their sexual identity or gender identity or all of these things. I just have become so deeply empathetic to a fault that I believe people. I believe people very easily. If you tell me

that you need something, I will try to help you get it. Like, yeah, I just, I've seen enough suffering and enough people look the other way that when someone's suffering and says like, well, you look this way, like I've tried to build a life where I do that. And so I'm always kind of being drawn into the plight of people who are living outside of a world where everything works out for you. And so, yeah, I believed that.

That medical kidnapping was a thing. I believed I was kind of bought into that. And I followed different people's Instagram pages who had had their children taken away. And you know this, Andrea, it's still hard to make sense of like what stems from systemic racial issues and true injustices of authorities, CPS, the police, you know,

unjustly taking families apart or providing interventions that end up causing more harm than good. Like I had some sort of framework for that and I allowed Sophie's story to just fall into that framework. Does that make sense? No, it really does. And I think, you know, I will tell you that when, you know, when I have been looking at

these sort of stories about medical kidnapping in particular, like as a whole, or like the separations that happened. And I mean, I think like the biggest misconception to my mind is that like

the doctors are doing it. Like doctors don't have the power to do that. Like doctors do a medical evaluation and then they present that evidence that they collect to whatever authorities are making those decisions. So the fact that they place the blame so directly on the doctors, you know, that like, oh, this is a conspiracy headed up by Dr. Wiesner at Children's. Like that to me, just as a framework is very suspicious. And now that is not to say that especially, and I will tell you like,

If it is a non-white parent or, you know, a parent that is not, like, middle class or upper middle class especially, like, then you sort of look at, like, all right, there could be other things going on with the system here that are unfair, that are, you know, that are dragging this out, that are, you know, meaning this person can't afford. But, like...

It just doesn't track for a white mom who, let alone a white mom who can afford, you know, one of the best, like, defense attorneys in town. Sorry. Like, that's not how, that's not how the system works. And, like, I understand where you're coming from. And I think a lot of us do understand that.

that there are problems within, quote, the system. And the system is many systems. They're all different in every state. There are different problems with different ones. They affect different populations differently. So there's so much nuance. And to sort of group it under this whole thing of, like, families are...

Yeah.

And, and those were, you know, yeah, black moms that had been really put through the ringer and, and, and those were really like sort of deeply human stories. And then all of these, you know, like the fact that most removals happen because of neglect, which is far, far sort of, you know, that far more attached to sort of like resources than, than abuses, right?

And these stories that have been highlighted in Take Care of Maya, in my Kicks and Box work, in USA Today and elsewhere, like, these are not those stories, right? Like, if you want to go and find extraordinarily sad stories about families who've had their kids taken away unfairly, those stories are out there. Those are not the ones they're featuring. Right.

And I think it makes me doubly mad that, you know, the people like my sister Megan and Sophie Hartman and Jack Kowalski, they're exploiting then that experience of parents who do unjustly have their kids taken away. And it's just sort of like insult upon insult, you know? Yeah. And I think another thing that plays into this in my situation as to why I was so upset

given over to this narrative of believing that Sophie was being victimized by the system has so much to do with my evangelical background and my understanding of spiritual warfare and how when you're doing God's work, you're going to have, you know, you're going to fall out of favor with people and

you know, Satan's out to get you and the enemy will try to take you down. Especially if you're practicing that passage from James, um, pure and pure religion is to care for orphans and widows. And so when you do that work, you will put yourself in the direct line of fire for the enemy and he will try to take you down. I thought that way for a very long time. It's embarrassing now, but I had a very, um, deep, um,

a theological framework for spiritual warfare. And so that was another thing I sorted, you know, I've come a long way even in the last four or five years. And, um,

But, you know, one of my go-to thoughts when I found out about all this is this is spiritual warfare. This is the enemy trying, you know, Sophie is living out her purpose, caring for these formerly orphaned children and bringing them into a home. And that is what you hear in church. If you do the Lord's work, you have a target on your back, you know? And so...

That checked out. And Sophie would reiterate that, you know, all of the ways that she has been laying her life down for the Lord and following the straight and narrow and living a bold life of faith and how much suffering and struggle comes with that. And she had been

been priming and prepping me for years to believe, see, this is what it's like to live a life of obedience. This is what it's like to live a life of faith. See how many people don't like me? Now I go back and I'm like, well, you're very abrasive. And I see now you don't really have long, deep, rich, lasting friendships because you don't actually know how to build friendships with people. You don't

that capacity as someone who I believe is narcissistic. And, you know, but at the time it just all made sense. And I, again, I realize now like,

This has been life altering for me because I realized I am very susceptible to like getting in a current and just being taken by the current. And I was very much taken by Sophie's current, which was I live a life of obedience and radical love. And so I will be, you know, the enemy is going to try to take me down. The enemy being Satan. Yeah.

Yeah. And I remember, you know, you and I talking through this piece of things while I was researching the case and that that was very helpful for me as a person who did not grow up as a person of faith. And, you know, that I really wanted to approach the evangelical piece of this

with care because I don't want to make it, you know, like it's not the point is not to dunk on people who are evangelicals or people who are Christians or be like, you know, look at these idiots or whatever, whatever that kind of, you know, thing, because that's not how I feel. And, and yet I think this piece about like, it really struck me reading Sophie's memoirs, reading her

journals, just reading how she presented herself and how she appeared to really sort of even think about herself when she was in her own time, on her own time, writing journals, presumably not for an outside audience, that that really struck me of like, oh, well, that's

pretty convenient framework for someone who wants to do this because then you don't have to assign any human motivations that make sense to the people who are out to get you. Just be like, Satan. And it's like a thought shuts down any sort of further questioning. And it was really interesting to see even how Sophie, her relationships with these churches. And I have...

obviously deep ideological differences with like the churches that she went to. And yet with the church here with pursuit, I mean, I feel like those people were victimized by her. And I think that there's every evidence that they really did care about her and care about her girls and try and support them. And, you know, I really feel a lot of empathy for them. I just wonder too, like,

You know, we were sort of talking about with Sam and even with where you were at before this of like there's this desire, like when you're trying to maintain a relationship with a person like this and you love that person and you don't want to lose that person. There is this thing of like I think instinctually you know if you look too closely at it for too long, it might break through. And so you just kind of like –

look away, look away, look away. Totally. And once you're, you know, it's really, it's like that matrix moment, right? Like if you take, I think it's the red pill, right? That wakes you up to reality and it's like, oh, then you just really can't go back, you know? And so like once you had like made that step and then you were looking at some of this documentation, you know, in particular Sophie's journals, which obviously are quite disturbing to read. Like what did that, just like what did that

feel like for you? I'll use your words. It breaks your brain. It's because you're looking at something, you're looking at these investigative reports, you're looking at something that's so familiar to you that you know so well, but now the lens is flipped and you see it in focus in a different way. Me looking at all of these facts, Sophie was always clearly in focus and it was about Sophie as the victim.

And through your podcast and through the other education I did around Munchausen by proxy and this kind of abuse, it takes Sophie out of focus and it puts the children in focus. It puts the other glaring realities into focus. And so I eventually came to a place where I chose if Sophie is telling the truth, then it's okay to

to stop defending her and just look at the facts. I had to come to that. I'm like, with anything in my life, if you have to cling so tightly to something for it to be true, like you might want to loosen your grip a little bit. And I realized I have been clinging so tightly to being there for Sophie, believing Sophie against all odds, against everything she's coming up against. I will be a

I will be one of the people that believes, you know? And so when I chose to come into a place where I'm like, I'm going to put that on a shelf, I'm going to let Sophie's life and reality just sit there. And I'm going to look at this stuff. And if it's true, then all of this will crumble. And I will, Sophie will come back into focus and it'll be fine. But as soon as I stopped

mentally, emotionally, psychologically defending Sophie, which now I realize was like a full-time job in our friendship was you have to keep these things at bay. You have to keep telling yourself, like you have to stop me once you stop making all the excuses. Um, it all just caved in very quickly, very quickly. Yeah. So I had to, in order to see the truth of

It's like to take the world of defending Sophie and like put that on a shelf and to step back from it. That is scary. That is a scary thing to do, to take something that you've known, that you've believed in, that you've invested in, that you've given yourself to a friendship that you've poured yourself into and to have to look at something else that may, that may mess with that, you know?

I would read, I read the journal entries, the stuff that was in the reports. I read the reports with like Sophie's voice in my head. Nobody ever believes me. You know, I have a target on my back. Just all of this stuff that she had told me about her reality.

And then, so I go into those documents just ready to defend, you know, and thinking, I just lend myself like, oh, you know, that's really weird what she said, but like, I've lied about some stuff before. And, you know, like, oh, like I've, you know, done some like very benign shady stuff in my life. Like we all do. And you just think like, oh, if all my stuff was like put out there, that'd be embarrassing. And then you're just like, this is not those things. This is not those things. This is dark stuff.

This is dark. And this, this is, you're really in Christianity in the world of good and evil. Like this is actually evil. And so it took so, I mean, I give a lot of credit to you, Andrea. I can say no questions asked. I would not have been able to do that without nobody should believe me. I would not have been able to do that without the educational, the

work of advocacy that you do through this podcast, the careful way that you tell these stories, I was given the right resources, which was this podcast to educate myself about what this actually is. There was a time when I was like, you know, I could really just stop listening and go on with my life. And I could call Sophie and tell her how horrific this is and just keep doing what she's asked me to do, which is to pray for her and to be available to her family through

I could do that. But what? So it eats away at me for the rest of my life, like what the reality is. And I just couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. Yeah. It became, it's wild to think that something that I defended so fiercely became disturbingly obvious when I just stopped defending her.

Well, I appreciate all those things you said, first of all. And I, you know, I think like that's exactly really, truly exactly what I what I hope the show will provide for people. And I think everyone who's been through one of these situations at some point gets into this sort of self recrimination piece of it where you just go, oh, my God, like, how did I how did I keep doing this? Like, how did I how did I defend this person? How did I believe them? Like, I feel like such an idiot.

And the reality is like, no, you're not an idiot. You're been victimized by that person. And like they, we all function that way. Like we all live in a basic sort of emotional truth that, you know, is varying degrees of detached to or detached from or attached to reality, right? It's just like how humans are. So you are not in touch with Sophie anymore. No. No.

Can you tell us how things eventually did come to a head between the two of you? Yeah. Listening to the podcast, being in communication with you, you know, I would read these documents and the evidence is just overwhelming. And I would

process these things with you. I process these things with other close people in my circle. I had just come to a place of firm belief that this is exactly what I'm looking at. I'm looking at medical child abuse. I have been deceived. And so I was compelled to contribute whatever I could to the story that you were telling, because I believe that it needs to be told for the protection of these children. People have to know people have to keep eyes on them. And so, um,

You know, I had shared things here and there. The podcast was eventually released. Sophie began to be suspicious of me. There were probably things that she had told just a handful of people that eventually got to you, as it should. And she sent me a very, what's the word, accusatory text message.

And this was a really tricky place. I'm going to pause on that. This is a really tricky place because again, the fuckery of all of this is that I am aware of what this person is doing and how deeply at risk her children are.

And as this podcast is about to release, I am deeply concerned for her mental health. Reaching out to her dad, reaching out to her sister to say, rally around her. I don't want something bad to happen. Enough bad things have happened in this family. My God. Yes, Sophie has been behind pretty much all of them, but I don't want the worst for her. I'm still crazy enough to think maybe there's a 1% chance somewhere that she could...

get healing and like actually live a life worth living. And so I didn't want bad things to happen to her. And I was earnest and honest in my attempts to say, family, people who know her, take care of her. It's going to be hard because the truth is coming. But when the accusation came back to me, like, have you said something? You've said something. And

It just burst the dam because, you know, I've had to process all these emotions, but there was anger because I thought, here you come pointing the finger at me.

And I am now aware that the number of lies, the number of betrayals towards me are so innumerable. It's laughable, except not laughable because it's just devastating. But I didn't want to have a conversation. I didn't. There's no confronting someone like this. And so I couldn't, you know, I had been like, you know, keeping my cards lying by omission, if you will.

communicating with you while keeping relationship with her for the sake of the kids but I couldn't that duplicitous life for the birds hate it terrible 10 out 10 do not recommend um I couldn't do it and so when that was finally like she was basically saying like did you do it and I was like yeah I did and I sent her kind of like a final sign-off message that just said like

I love you, but I don't believe you anymore. And please do not contact me unless by some miracle, which I do believe in miracles, you choose a new way of life. And if you... My door is always open to the truth and it is slammed shut for anything less than that, which is what has made up our entire friendship is deception and manipulation. And so...

I sent that message shaking and trembling because, again, despite it all, there's grief and sadness. And I blocked her number. And I don't expect to ever hear from her again. But if she ever listens to this, I hope I do hear from her. I don't think you're all bad, Sophie. I don't. I think you could be really brave and do the right thing. And I would pick up our friendship again.

And I would be there for you. Like I have been, if you will be honest in a heartbeat, like I am

I love her. I care about her as a person. I don't understand all the factors that have contributed. I don't know how it's gone this far. I don't know how she's become who she's become, but I believe that she has deep pain. It's not an excuse, but I think there are reasons. You know, you listen to the Hopi Bar case and on the one hand, it's so disturbing and so horrific, but I'm a human. Like I realized that

No matter how upper middle class you live, like life still hurts. Trauma still happens. Things still happen. At some point you believed that this was the way to receive love and you were sorely, devastatingly, horrifically misguided and you have made horrible mistakes, but I don't think anyone is beyond the reach of grace. I don't believe that. And so I hope against all hope that, um,

there could be healing for that whole family. And I will always be

championing that for that family, no matter how villainized I am. You know, I've been immediately cut off, blocked on all the things you can be blocked on from the family. And I know that the story about me is that I'm a traitor and it's heartbreaking because the truth is that I love that family. I love Sophie's parents. I think they're good people. I love Sam and her family. I wish them all well, but for the love of God, would you guys open your eyes and protect those children?

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You know, I think probably one of the reasons that we did connect as much as we have is that I know that you mean that and that you hold all of those complicated truths about Sophie. And it is so complicated for those of us. You know, something I talk to my friends who are survivors about a lot. And it remains, you know, complex for me. Where on the one hand, this behavior is so complex.

cruel and horrible and damaging. And I don't ever want to soften it for anybody, right? Because we do that too much already. Like, oh, they're struggling with a mental illness. Like, no. Right. No. It's inexcusable. They're doing what they're doing. They're committing these horrendous acts. They're putting their children in danger. They're lying about it. They're

And I don't think that that precludes us seeing the humanity in them. Yeah. And both the conversation with Hope and one of Sophie's journal entries in particular. Yeah. The one where, you know, a lot of her journal entries are these extremely florid, you know, plugging into this narrative about herself as...

essentially, you know, right? Like on this sort of, you know, I'm this martyr and my daughter and, you know, and like sort of talking to God and really, you know, framing herself that way. And then there's this one entry where it's very plain spoken. It's a very different tone. And she just sort of says, you know,

yeah, I'm a compulsive liar. I've done this. I've done that. This is when it started for me, you know, around the age of four, I remember feeling this way. And, you know, that the only way that I could be loved and be worthy of love was to have it the worst. To have the highest need, yeah. Right. And I mean, I felt like that was the truth. And that felt... Maybe the most honest thing she's ever done. That felt true. And I...

It really broke my heart to read that because I just, I can still remember a version of my sister that I did really love and was really close to. And whether that's sort of the real her or not, or whether that was always a mask, or whether something in between is sort of, you know...

deep and open question, but I think about that, about her being younger in particular and being in that kind of pain, and it makes me really, really sad. And I do think that Megan and Sophie are in a lot of pain. I think it's a sad and a horrible and destructive way to live a life. And I think

They do so much damage to others and they also do so much damage to themselves. And I think it really also, you know, thinking about the lack of connection that you would have to feel with other people to be able to do these things, the lack of empathy that you would have to feel to commit these acts, that must be so profoundly lonely. I mean, Talis, you're a mom also, like, you know, I have two little kids, like,

The love I feel for my kids is like the most rewarding thing ever. You know, like it's like, it's the best. And like just your relationships with other people, whether you have kids or not, like having deep relationships with other people and trust with other people and connection with other people is like the thing that makes life worth living. And I think like the way I feel about, it was like, you know, while I was like digging into this case, I was just like, you know,

it's like the more I learn about Sophie, the sort of more remote she is. And just like talking to people who knew her. And you were one of our background sources, but we had others. And I did talk to a number of people who know her and knew her. And I just sort of felt like,

oh, nobody knows this person. This person's unknowable. And that was what I ultimately felt about my sister. And it's like, people think they know some version of Megan and they don't because she's unknowable because everything is a lie. And it's everything is, there's no sort of like unadulterated version of her that is connected to another person. Everyone's sort of a prop in her play, you know? And I think like that really is

Like, yes, that's horrible for the people who are being used as props, but it's also horrible for the person because they're at the middle of it and they're alone. And I mean, I think we can like, I don't think it's wrong to feel empathy for a person who's having that experience in their life because it is sad. But you have to like see the truth in addition to that, because otherwise you're not going to keep going.

the children safe or anybody else. It's like, you can't be safe around a person like that unless you see what you're really dealing with. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And you know, I can, I still, there are nights I can't fall asleep and I, I'll just cry and cry thinking about what a lonely, sad existence. I believe that this is someone who is hungry, hungry,

for love and to be known and just has chosen, has chosen, let's be clear, has chosen to get that hit in one of the most deeply destructive ways. And that's devastating. That's just devastating. Um,

I don't want that for anyone. But the priority shifts from the adult who is choosing this to here I am willing to talk about this case, willing to publicly say, I have been lied to. I mean, there's so much I can't say, but I mean, when you start combing back through the years of it all, you just are like,

Oh, none of it was real. That emergency, that emergency, that crisis, that crisis, that diagnosis, this, this, this, this, this, this, this. It was always something. None of it's real, but it is time. Sophie has been the center point for a very long time. And I am willing out of my love for her as much as she and people like her could never believe that. Like I love you enough to de-center you and hope the best for your healing.

And now to do whatever I have to do, whatever I feel compelled to do, whatever is the next right step to extend a hand of help to two little girls who are in a very dangerous situation. Yeah.

And so this was my next right step. I take no joy in ratting her out or saying it's all true or being the person who comes on the podcast and says, I know her. This isn't fun for me. This is not inherently rewarding. But I am compelled to do the uncomfortable thing and to do the thing that's hard. And this is hard. It's hard to say,

I was deceived. I believed, you know, this is hard, but it's right. I can and I will do the next right thing. And the next right thing is to...

extend myself as, you know, we call each other, like I've been her girl's auntie and the girls, Sophia was an auntie to my girls. It was a, it felt deeply familial. It felt deeply like this was going to go the distance. This is crazy, but there was a time where we

working to the finalization of the adoption of my girls. I mean, this is how far in it I was. And there's parts that are like embarrassing, but you know, whatever it is, what it is. But there was a time when I had to choose. I'm a single parent. If anything happens to me, who do my kids go to? Sophie was at, was on a list and at the top of that list, because for everything that we know now, there's a different side to all of these people. That's kind of disastrous in my mind, but there was a time when I thought that would be the next best option.

Yeah, it's a lot of loss. It's a lot of loss for you. It's a lot of loss. And a lot of grief, you know? Yeah, yeah. For all of us, for my family, for my girls, it's a lot. And I mean...

I can personally vouch for you not being here with some kind of vendetta because – or to gain something because trust me and my producer can back me up on this one as well. You know, when we're sort of looking to talk to people about these stories, like the last thing we want is somebody who's like, yes, all right, let's do this. Let me at it. Right. Yeah.

It's a little like, oh, but you want to do this like maybe a little too much. And then, you know, you wonder if someone's trying to settle a score or something. Then, yeah. And I know that like, especially considering like where we started this conversation of like, this can never be out there. My name can never be out there. And then, you know, it really was just like watching you evolve. And then really this conversation came about because you had shared something on your Instagram about like the book and the show. And I was like,

I wonder if Talis is feeling like she wants to talk about this and then, you know, and then so we had that conversation. Since stepping into this whole world and this new understanding of what medical child abuse is, there's another incident in my life. There's someone else I know, a friend of a friend, you know, it's not that I wish it were more rare than it is, but it's popped up in another place and I've talked to other people and it's popped up in their life. And I feel like,

like my work, like the whole work of my life is like defend those who are defenseless, you know, care for the marginalized and the oppressed. These are tenants of my faith that I still cling to and what I believe it is to be a good person. And so, um, yeah, this, this is the next right step. You do the hard thing and you talk about the things that are

In secret. It's my dog. You, you give a voice to the things that are not being given a voice. And this is such a deliberately successfully silenced form of abuse that there are not the, the safeties and the protocols in place. And so now it's this new unexpected part of my life that I never wanted. And I'd love to back out of, but I won't to, um,

do the work. What does that look like to protect children and to advocate for children who are in harm's way? Yeah. I mean, like same, like this is not what I expected to be doing with my life. You know, and I'm glad that I've gotten the opportunity to do something that feels valuable and that

believe it or not, this was not a long-term plan to have a popular podcast that I just was like, you know what I'm going to do. So tell us, it's been so wonderful to get to have this conversation with you. It's one of many conversations we've had and hopefully we'll have in the future. But I really appreciate you doing this with us. And just lastly, and I think

You know, when we were talking about this, like what we both hope, and I think what we maybe realize about like hearing about your experience of listening to the show, you kind of realize like there's so much fear around confrontation when you're in one of these situations. How the person will react, how the family members will react, whether or not you will be believed. And because you've been gaslit, you worry that you're crazy sometimes.

And I realized that having some kind of passive way to process it, it can be really helpful. And so I think like, I think we both hope that Em in particular, you know, but see also will someday listen to this because it will hopefully give them a way to like process that information that does not involve taking a personal risk off the bat. And so if they do hear this,

What do you want to say to the two of them directly? I love them both so deeply. And they are like nieces to me. They are. You always have been so special to me. You've been friends to my little girls. You have made their lives better and richer and fuller. And Aaliyah and Jamilah love you. And our family loves you. And there's nothing...

that we wouldn't do for you. Our home, our hearts, our money, it's all like open to you and we'll believe you, we'll always believe you and I promise to keep fighting for you however I can and to keep fighting for your family and in my own way to keep fighting for your mom who I know you love. And when I say I'll fight for her,

I will do that in a spiritual way. I will pray for her. I will always keep a soft part in my heart to her. But the Howards love you so much and we see you. And I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry for all the pain. Thank you so much. That's really beautiful. And, you know, I guess like I said this to Hope.

I put this out on the air, you know, in the beginning, I think there was like this part of me that was hoping, obviously, that Megan would listen to it and be like, oh, look, my sister has gone and learned all these things where she can help me. Right. And now the accepting of that help is like a totally different story. But I think like I know I'm the enemy big time. But like also, I think you and I have the right idea about what it means to help someone like Megan and Sophie. Right.

Because like we can connect them with the people who built the treatment model for this. Right. That is possible. Not easy, but it's possible. I think it's really important to like sort of, you know, first like keep the lights on for the kids. Right. But then like for them too, like you said, if they ever wanted to come out of, out of this, there would be another way.

There's always a way. It feels so far gone. I admit that. It's gotten so dark. But I believe that for every human, that there is always a way. Sadly, so often there aren't people to support. But there are. There are people that know everything that have been hurt the most by this. And even I, even Andrea, like,

we will still reach a hand out and say like, you too are worthy of rehabilitation. You are not a monster. You have made monstrous choices. You are not a monster. You are human worthy of love. And if you choose that, you won't be alone. You won't have to choose it alone. Is there anything else that you want to say before we get off? Thank you, Andrea, for your brave, brave work.

You have given your life to something so unglamorous, so unsexy and so messy and so dangerous and crazy. And it is for love and it is for liberation. And it is because you are a person of unspeakable hope.

And I'm so thankful. I hate everything that I know, but I'm so thankful that because of your work, I'm on the other side of a delusion. And this work is so important and will liberate so many people and will be a hand on someone's back when they feel so alone in the wake of this.

uncovering these terrible truths and reckoning with abuse and reckoning with all these things you are lighting away and I'm so thankful and it's taken immense courage and you just keep waking up and choosing to do it because you have a heart full of love and so thank you I really owe you so much and I'm deeply grateful oh

Well, thank you so much for saying all that. That just means the world to me. And I, I'm so grateful for you as well. And, um, thank you so much for being here with us and we will keep talking about the next right step.

Get ready for your next true crime binge. It's all a blur. My aunt, Ilsa, called me and she just said, get to the hospital. The doctor came in and told us that there's really not much more that they could do for her and now we need to go say goodbye. This doesn't happen to people like me. A new true crime 10-part series from the makers of Sword and Scale launches March 3rd. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.