S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
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Learn more at mycomputercareer.edu slash CWP. SkillBridge and other VA benefits are available to those who qualify. Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to have back former director of the FBI from 2013 to 2017. He was a federal prosecutor in New York. His latest legal thriller, FDR Drive, came out this week. It's the third in a series. It is Jim Comey. What's going on, man? Great to be with you, Tim. Thanks for having me. All right. All right.

We got to start with the shells for the rocks. Okay. I mean, you made this happen. Not me, I guess, with the Instagram posting. I get in trouble with some of my posts sometimes. So I've been there. Paint me a picture here. I know you've done a couple of interviews already. So you're with your wife. You're on a beach walk. Is it the morning? Are we in Bethany? Are we in Cape May? You're an author now. Paint me a scene. Yeah, we went to the coast of North Carolina. We love the Outer Banks and Barrier Islands.

for the week before the book rollout. Thought it'd be a great time to get away, think about the next book, what I'm going to say. And we went for a walk on Thursday afternoon of the week before publication, and we were walking across a big piece of beach. And as we got towards the end of our walk, we saw in the sand some numbers that

And I spelled that in shells. And my wife said, why would someone put their address in the sand? So we stopped. We both sort of turned our heads sideways and studied it. And I said, you know, I think it's like a political message of some kind. And she said, oh, yeah. And then she explained to me that when she was a server, which she did,

throughout school that 86 was a restaurant term. And I said, no, I don't know that. I used to hear it as a kid. We would say 86, this place when we were at a bar or a restaurant that was dull, we wanted to go someplace else. So she said, oh, you should take a picture of that. I said, cool. And I took a picture of it. And then I posted on Instagram when we got back home and thought no more of it. And I thought it was just a cool way for someone to express a political view and

And then I heard later in that day that people were saying it was a threat to assassinate the president. And I was like, oh, my God.

I've never heard 86 used in that context. I actually still haven't. But I thought, man, I want no part of anything like that. So I took it down immediately and posted a little statement explaining why I took it down. And that's the Shell story. Got it. And were there other people around? I guess when you're walking down the beach, you're tall. You're kind of famous. Are people trying to chat you up on these beach walks? No, that's the great thing. People at the beach seem to focus on...

The things they should focus on, the water, the waves, their families, they're not looking. I'm hardly a celeb, but they're not looking for celebs. And it was a big sort of the point area of a barrier island that's a gigantic collection of sand. And so it's not crowded at all. Yeah.

Are you into kind of resistance memes generally? Are people sending you, you know, funny little Instagram posts? Are you like into Instagram culture? Are you getting reels sent to you? Or was this a one-off? I'm not a big Instagram-er. I tend to post family stuff, political stuff, and book stuff. Last fall, at the beach, I saw something I thought was cool and I posted it, which was someone had painted inside a big shell of

endorsement of kamala harris so i remember posting that i'm not a big poster when i see something that strikes me as funny or interesting i posted but seashell politics is one overlap for you you know yeah crime novels reynold niebuhr like you just have a variety interests and seashell political art is one of it oh okay so you may see less of that in my future instagram posts

Seems right. Seems advisable. So the most insane part of all this, I was listening to a couple of your other interviews, is like you literally had to go into the Secret Service over this? Like you went into the building? Like they called you in? Yeah, they called me that night and I talked to an agent on the phone and he said, look, this may be the end of it, but if they want to do an in-person interview, would you do that? And I said, of course. So just let me know what you want. I'll be home tomorrow afternoon.

And they reached back out and said, look, when you get home, we'd love to have you in for a personal interview. I said, sure. Can you give me a ride? Because I didn't want to be walking through a

nothing against the media, but didn't want to be walking through a bunch of cameras. And so they came to my house, gave me a ride, said, do you want to sit in the back or the front? I said, I'd prefer to sit in the front. And so I sat in the front seat and they drove me into their garage and we did the interview, which wasn't long. And then they drove me home. I appreciate your good cheer about this. I would not have good cheer. This is fucking insane. Like you posted a picture of seashells and like,

Like you got driven into the Secret Service headquarters to get questioned? Like, I mean, did you feel like you needed a lawyer? I mean, it's silly, but it's intimidation. They were trying to intimidate you. And maybe not the actual person questioning you, but up the chain, they were trying to intimidate you. Yeah, I don't know what was going on up the chain. And so it's hard for me to say. Look, the guys I dealt with at Secret Service, which has always been the case with them, were total pros and...

They were going through their normal interview they do when there's anyone's alleged there's a threat. And I just thought, look, there's no conceivable basis for saying this was a threat. But if they want to talk to me, I'll talk to them. And that should be the end of it. But I can't speak to what- But you've been on the other side of the- I mean, this is not breaking news for you. People have said nasty things about Jim Comey on the internet. I'm not even saying these nasty things. People have posted memes that are critical of you.

on the internet, like when you were FBI director in 2015, 16, 17, did you ever bring anybody? Do you ever ask anybody to be brought in for questioning? Because, you know, they wrote, you know, James Comey's a cuck or whatever on on Pinterest.

It is not the normal state of affairs, right? Yeah. Look, if I were the investigator, I would think of it, is this a credible threat? Is this term 86 something that's been used in movies or books in the past to convey some sense of violence? And if the answer was no, which I believe it is no, I think that would have been the end of it. But I don't know anything.

In the Trump administration, what kind of pressure the investigators are operating under? I appreciated that with me, they acted like professionals. I got to imagine their lives are pretty difficult right now. I mean, I think we have some evidence that they're under pressure to investigate people. I want to pull up here. My colleague Sam Stein posted this yesterday. So the DOJ is investigating ActBlue, which is a Democratic fundraising operation. FTC is investigating Media Matters, which is a left-wing organization.

media outlet, media monitoring outlet. DHS is targeting Harvard. The executive office is going after Dem-aligned law firms and Chris Krebs and Miles Taylor, a U.S. attorney, is charging a Dem lawmaker with a crime. FBI has arrested a liberal judge. Peter Baker put it this way. Leticia James, Andrew Cuomo, LaMonica McIver, Kamala Harris, Bruce Springsteen, Beyonce, Bono, Oprah Winfrey, James Comey, good company.

treasonous Biden aides, the city of Chicago and the Kennedy Center have all been threatened with legal action by this administration. So I don't think we have to read between the lines about what they're up to.

Oh, yeah. And I want to draw a line under Chris Krebs. I mean, the president issued an executive order saying he should be investigated. So there's no doubt that the Trump administration is using the investigative powers of the executive branch to target people, to frighten people, to cow people. There's no doubt that that's going on. And that is a real problem. I'm just saying, in my case, I can't see what happened up the chain. My interactions with the Secret Service were...

professional, were routine in the sense that they did it the way they would normally do it. But what was behind that? I don't know.

I mean, they came in talking about how they were going to depoliticize this. And look, I mean, you've been through this more than anybody. Like some of these things are tough calls, right? You know, and when you're the director of the FBI or the DOJ, and there is a president is of one party in the White House, I assume that, you know, if you're going to be investigating or looking into a politician or a group that is opposed to

there has to be some kind of bar standard, right? You were, I assume, particularly conscious of

trying to make the right call within the law and doesn't seem like there's any evidence that that's happening right now. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, it's critical when you lead a justice agency, so DOJ or FBI, that both the reality and the perception of your institution be that you're operating without fear or favor and that when you gather facts, you're not on anybody's team. That is, without that, you're lost. And

That is draining away right now because it's clear they're taking actions based on who's on what team going after the president's enemies. That's poison for confidence in justice institutions and confidence is everything.

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Or one that matches your vibe otherwise. So, right now, Ridge is having their huge Memorial Day sale. Get up to 40% off at ridge.com slash the bulwark. Just head to ridge.com slash the bulwark to see their biggest sale of the year. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. I want to get into what's going on in the FBI next, but I do have to ask.

Like, do you think there's something about your nature that you end up in brouhaha such as this was like, was this was your childhood like this, where like, you would just kind of be accidentally roaming through life. And the next thing you know, you're at the center of a controversy in the middle school. Yeah, that was not my history growing up. And so I don't know what it is. But again, it's it's been a long time, right? I haven't done an interview in a year as last time you and I were together.

So, look, I have so enjoyed being a grandfather and an author in T-shirts and jeans. And frankly, I was after the election in November, I was thinking I'll just withdraw.

And so I didn't plan any of this out, but in a way it's been a useful kick in the pants to me. And that is you can't withdraw. And I'm a little embarrassed to admit I was trying to withdraw. And the stupid seashell thing in a way has said, no, you got to get back out there and speak. And so I think I can talk about the rule of law.

I wish I didn't have to, but we all have to right now. There's some theories online that the seashells was part of the book promo. Now, my pushback on this is that it would be so too stupid. I would hope that you would have come up with a better plan for creating controversy, but can you rule that out? Yes, I unequivocally rule that out. Yeah, I think I would come up with a better plan. It's honestly been a bit of a distraction. Not that I mind you talking about the seashells, but

I'm supposed to be out here for my publisher talking about the book. We're going to get to the book. We're going to get to FDR Drive. Unfortunately, we've got some other business. One of your successors here is Kash Patel, who is a conspiracy children's book author. So it's an interesting choice for FBI director. And his deputy, Dan Bengino, was one of my competitors in the podcast space. So you never know, I guess. Maybe deputy FBI director might be in my future. We will see. It's been a few months now.

How should I put this? You know, I don't have a ton of friends in the FBI. I'm sure you have a ton of former colleagues, people that worked for you, former friends. But, you know, I know people. And when the appointments were happening, there was a lot of concern, let's just say. And I'm wondering how, you know, kind of what the buzz is and what you're what you are hearing now a few months in from folks in and around the FBI. They went through a period of trauma when the appointments are first made and they

Kash Patel arrived and

People were forced out at the same time, really good career people, people who actually know how to run the FBI were forced out. The head of the FBI's New York office, who was widely admired, was forced out for standing up and saying, basically, we're going to do our jobs the right way. So that was a period of trauma for them. I think they've now entered a kind of numb stage where they are, I'm not speculating, folks there have told me this, they're just trying to keep their heads down and do the work and survive this.

accomplish the mission, but try to do it in a way that headquarters isn't watching them or isn't interested in them. That's sort of a big part of the Hoover era. People just wanted to do the work and make sure that Hoover didn't see what they were doing so they didn't get drawn into anything. I think they've entered that phase and hoping that time goes quickly. It's pretty alarming that they don't want attention from the FBI director for their FBI work. You would

you know, in a healthy organization, I would think it would be the opposite. You would want your boss to. That's right. It's not, it is not a healthy leadership style. Some folks have been forced out, as you pointed out, like other folks, like thinking about leaving, I guess, what are your concerns just about good people staying and doing the work?

Well, it's hard to categorize 38,000 people in one place, but I think the main feeling is they still love the work. They know how fast three years and whatever we are, six months can go by, and they are planning on staying. They're hoping not to be noticed to do the work, and then there'll be a better time ahead. That seems to be, again, the selection bias in those that I talk to, but that seems to be the feeling.

I do love that mindset about the fact that the time can go fast. It seems so long. My child just had her last day of first grade yesterday. And I was like, man, first grade went fast.

So that makes you positive. And then you think about, well, she'll be in fifth grade or something when Trump is out of there. So that makes it feel long. So I don't – different perspectives. So there's been some discussion – and again, I know you're not on the inside, but from text chains or whatever. Like there's a refocus towards immigration enforcement. Who knows what else? Election fraud. A refocus away from public corruption. Maybe counterintel in certain cases. Yeah.

What is your sense of that? Like, do you have concerns that, you know, maybe some of the focus and the resources are being misapplied? Yes, it's hard to see from the outside, but I also wonder, so how are they doing that? The Bureau since 9-11 has

has had a really sophisticated process to figure out what to work on. It's called the Threat Review and Prioritization Process, TRP, where twice a year we would look across the country and say, so what are the bad things that could happen to America that we could do something about? Who's working on it already?

What would be good measurements of achievement against that threat? And given those threats, how would we rank them? And then we do the same thing in each of the 56 field offices and then come up for each field office with a separate list of these are your priorities. And this is how we're going to measure whether you're making progress against them. Really rigorous. And we would go to Congress each year and say, you should invest in the FBI because we'll show you how we're spending our money and we'll show you whether we're making progress.

good on our promises to spend the money this way. And I couldn't move more than $100,000 in total value, so in equipment or people, without going to Congress and getting permission. Because a law had passed that said, this is how you shall spend your money. And it was based on what we had told them we were going to spend it on. So how you move lots of people to immigration and how you do it consistent with

The rigor of that prioritization process mystifies me because I assume that terrorism and counterintelligence are still at the top of the stack. And so what's the rationale for the move? And what does Congress say about the move? I can't tell you. Again, you've been in the building. I haven't. Isn't there just like a what's the game with the ball and the cups? Can't you just say that the immigration stuff is counterintel, right? And so you had money that's supposed to be in this bucket, right?

but you're going to read, just sort of move it the other way? I don't know. Is that too simplified? Well, it risks being a false statement, which you really don't want to do at the FBI. But yeah, if Congress is going to wink and nod because you're going to say that, you know, it's national security work because we're protecting the border, I guess at that point, the rigor of the threat review process has increased.

been thrown over, but sure. I guess she, if Congress is going to let you do it, you can do whatever you want. Well, I mean, we just saw Christie gnome testifying. I guess it was earlier this week where she was being pushed on this. I forget which democratic member it was. Apologies for not chatting them up, but to the presser about this, which is like, she is spending a bunch of money. That's not allocated on border stuff on advertising, promoting how great their deportation efforts have been on a bunch of other things. Um,

And I don't know if it's Republicans that are controlling the Congress and the Senate, and they're not going to do oversight of it. I don't know what the oversight process would be, right? So maybe there's just a little bit of a free reign, and it's different than when you were back in public service. I think that's right. I mean, you get that sense across a broad spectrum of issues that Congress has just folded it up. And that leg of the

constitutional stool doesn't exist anymore. And so it's no longer that the president's responsible for taking care of the law, be faithfully executed. He kind of gets to make the law now. That seems to be what's going on across the spectrum.

Are you worried at all about like the medium term threats to the Bureau itself, like as an institution and just thinking about, again, good people leaving, thinking about like shutting down public corruption investigations that, you know, the norms change where, you know, kind of having a more politicized Bureau just as accepted and that it's hard to unwind that stuff or, you

Do you think that maybe I'm being too pessimistic? No, I'm very worried. And because we spent 50 years after Hoover died trying to build an FBI that stood apart, that was in the executive branch, but not of the executive branch, spiritually, culturally, because...

We needed that. And when I was nominated to be FBI director, Republican senators and Democrats all said the same thing. You must protect the independence of that institution. It can't be part of politics. It can't be on anybody's team because you have to investigate everybody. Over and over again, they told me the same thing. And that's reflected in the 10-year term, which is symbolic, right? The president can fire, was legally entitled to fire an FBI director, me in this case. But the 10-year term is to signal something

And it's the reason that when Barack Obama was playing basketball in the FBI basketball court downstairs, I knew he was there. I never went down because Louis Freeh didn't hang out with the president. Bob Mueller didn't hang out with the president. I didn't hang out with the president because we're trying to protect the reality and the reputation of the FBI as separate. And now you see the FBI director hanging out with the president, laughing with the president, socializing with the president. That is crazy.

something that symbolizes a real worry that I have that we're going to lose what we spent 50 years building. Now, can we rebuild it? Of course. But in the meantime, good people won't come to the FBI. Good people leave the FBI and more than anything else,

People won't trust the FBI jurors witnesses victims sheriffs police chiefs People that we need to know the FBI is gonna be criticized because we play our games on national television in a polarized environment But but if you're not trusted you can't do the work. I mean during our dinner at the White House alone I tried to explain to Donald Trump during Trump 1.0 why it was in his interest that

to have an institution that he could give the hardest problems to and say, well, they're not on my squad. They're figuring it out according to the law and the facts. It's without fear or favor. When you lose that, you lose something important. It's a paradox. The closer you try and hold that institution, the more problems you create. I shouldn't use the word paradox. You didn't know what I was talking about, but something is really important and in danger when you conduct the business the way they're doing it now.

Hey guys, it's Tim and Sarah. We're here with my frenemy, John Lovett from Love It or Leave It. We're bringing you guys all a special crossover collab with the Bulwark and Crooked Media. The Never Trump Rhinos meet the Self-Important Podcast Bros.

You are definitely the fucking self-important one. June is Pride Month, and we're going to be live in D.C. on June 6th for World Pride for a very special live show fundraiser featuring the three of us, plus some gay special guests. This one's a little different. Proceeds from tickets will be donated to support Andre Romero, the makeup artist who the Trump administration wrongly disappeared to El Salvador and who is currently being held in Saucon.

Crooked and the Bulwark will be donating the proceeds from this fundraiser to the Immigrant Defenders Law Center. Tickets on sale now at crooked.com slash events. These are going fast, so get yours before they're gone. Go to crooked.com slash events. And we will see you all on June 6th. Speaking of talking to MAGA folks, not Trump himself, you know, we all do have Trump supporters in our lives. Let's just imagine you're talking to a Trump supporter and they listen to that answer and say...

Come on, Jim Comey, like the FBI was always politicized. Trump, you know, they sent FBI agents into Trump's house at Mar-a-Lago. And so we're just treating Democrats the way we were treated. And all the rest of it was just window dressing. What do you say to that?

I'm not sure there's much I can say if you're going to be trapped in a bubble like that. And there really are bubbles. I mean, when someone yells, fuck you at me on the street, I have to pause and say, is that a Clintonian fuck you or a Trumpian fuck you? And I look for context clues and location and inflection. And it's because people are trapped in their own bubbles. Why were both sides angry at us at different times is because we were doing investigations in difficult circumstances without regard to persons, without fear of favor.

But if people are going to say, you know, they invaded Trump's home and leave aside the fact that they had a court-ordered search warrant and all that sort of thing, there's not much you can say to them. And I just wish there were a way to make the bubbles go away. Is there anything you're seeing that concerns you that might not catch my attention, you know, since you're kind of more familiar with the norms and mores of the Bureau? No, I think we've touched on the right things. There is danger in having the FBI be

an attachment to the White House and part of the president's personal team. And it's the reason I was so freaked when Donald Trump asked for loyalty. It's the reason, for example, Louis Freeh surrendered his White House pass when the FBI was participating in investigations that touched the Clinton administration. You cannot be on the team and do the work credibly. But I think that's the kind of concern you and I have talked about.

I have one more Kash Patel question because I have James Comey here, so I have to do it. He was on Maria Bart Romo this weekend. I don't know if you're a big watcher of Sunday Futures. He was out there with Dan Bongino and they were asked about the Epstein situation. I don't want to play it for you. You said Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide.

People don't believe it. Well, I mean, listen, they have a right to their opinion. But as someone who has worked as a public defender, as a prosecutor who's been in that prison system, who's been in the Metropolitan Detention Center, who's been in segregated housing, you know a suicide when you see one. And that's what that was. He killed himself. Again, you want me to? I've seen the whole file. He killed himself.

It's a pretty weird scene. I don't know. Would you ever have found yourself in that situation? No, both in general and in particular with Maria Bartiromo. I'd be on the bulwark, obviously. Look, these guys, in an odd way, I kind of feel sorry for them because they spent years barking nonsense about the FBI and its work to their followers. And then the dogs not only caught the car, they have to drive the car to

and nothing in their lives have prepared them for that, but they're also now driving in a reality-based universe where facts matter and statements have to be under oath and there's accountability in the courts. And so the nonsense has to go away, but their followers who grew up on this

They don't see it the same way. And so I got to imagine they're under tremendous pressure. And look, you can take joy in that. I actually think it'd be better if they didn't have that kind of distraction and they were a different kind of person and could run the FBI without worrying about the followers they had lied to. I guess there's a little vindication, right? I mean, like, look, they said the FBI was behind January 6th.

There was something mysterious happening with the Trump assassination attempts. Epstein, who knows? Maybe it was the Clintons, even though I never really understood that conspiracy since he died when Trump was president the first time in prison. But now they have to...

reflect reality. It's a little bit of a vindication for the reality-based world. We have to take our wins where we can, I guess, right? Yeah, that's right. And they spent years saying the FBI was a corrupt, deep state cabal of leftists. And I guess they changed that on day one, because on day one, it became the greatest investigative agency in the world.

Which I believe is the actual truth and that they saw it on day one, I guess, is a wonderful thing. But it's going to take their followers a while to catch up, which puts them in a spot. Do you have any doubts about Epstein? You think maybe Trump and Cash? I do not. All right. All right. You never know. I don't know. I don't know.

I have a little nagging doubt. I mean, it is interesting that Trump and him were on the plane together. And it was Trump that was the president when he was in jail. I'm just throwing that out there. One more news item. I'm going to play a game. Then we'll talk about the book. There was a dinner last night, Trump golf course, with the biggest investors into the Trump cryptocurrency. It was like a game. They were also playing a game. It was a competition where the more money you gave Donald Trump personally, the more

the better seat you got at this private dinner. Several of the dinner guests in interviews with the New York Times said they attended the event with the explicit intent of influencing Mr. Trump and U.S. financial regulations. I mean...

Obviously, you don't have all the details of this and all the files, but this seems like bribery to me. This seems like public corruption in the most extreme way that I've seen in my life. Yeah, on the face of it, it's beyond fiction. And if I put it in my next book, my editor would strike it out saying, got to write something closer to reality. A little more subtle. Right. At the heart of every public corruption investigation is proving the challenge of proving corrupt intent beyond a reasonable doubt that when people took an action, they

Because the defense that's offered in almost every public corruption case is that I had no intention of influencing or it never occurred to me that this might be wrong. Again, the challenge with Donald Trump, though, is that he

He robs banks without a mask, right? He does it in the middle of the day so he can say, I'm not a bank robber. I'm sure I have a gun, but who would do this in the middle of the day with no mask? And so it, in an odd way, presents this is not going to be investigated given the nature of the leadership of the Department of Justice. But if they try to investigate it, that's actually an impediment, this bizarre brazenness, but it's not going to be looked at anyway. Yeah.

So try to contextualize it. I just said it was the most brazen example of public corruption I've seen in my life. But you're more familiar with this stuff than me. Like, what was the most extreme public corruption case you looked into over the years? Like, is there one that jumps to mind of something you're like, wow, like that guy was really on the take?

The one involving a congressman, I think Jefferson from Louisiana. Oh, yeah. Where the FBI search found stacks of cash in his freezer that he had taken, as I recall it,

expressly to influence what he did with legislation and then he put it in the freezer that was one of the worst i mean obviously the menendez case with the gold bars and the money in his pockets those are examples that leap to mind but there's unfortunately there's plenty of others do you remember how much cash was in william jefferson's freezer i do not 90 000 bucks not nothing pretty good

You can get a little boat with $90,000 or take your wife on a couple of nice vacations. The biggest contributor to the Trump dinner last night, Justin Sun, a Chinese national, gave $40 million, purchased $40 million in Trump coin. $40 million. That's insane. We just can't let it go.

overwhelm us. There's a real danger that we'll just become numb, that we can't even see norms and rules in the rearview mirror. We're so far past it and we just can't let it happen. And we become numb to the fact that I've obviously spent my career as a lawyer, seeing these law firms knuckle under and basically mortgage part of the business to Donald Trump. That

It's happened so much that there's a risk we will become numb to it, which is why we have to keep calling it out. It's why you have to do what you do. I'm sure you don't enjoy having to talk about it every day, but we cannot let it become normal. Yeah, I don't enjoy New York Times media criticism either, but I was reading the article about this this morning, and here's just one sentence from it about the dinner. It was a spectacle that could have only happened in the era of Donald Trump. Well, that's technically true. Yeah, that it's a spectacle that could have only happened in the era of Donald Trump, but it also is...

A type of corruption and bribery and likely illegality that never would have happened. Like, that's why it's not the spectacle that was uniquely Trump. It's the grift and the corruption that was uniquely Trump. And this guy, Justin Sun, was being investigated by the Biden administration.

He's no longer being investigated. He put $40 million into the Trump coin. And again, I've never had to bring a case in front of a grand jury. But that seems pretty cut and dry to me. Yeah. And talking about it as a spectacle is like it's the Met Gala. It's not about the fashion and the form. There's something deeply, substantively troubling about this. It's not a spectacle. Right.

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with IQ Bar. Go to eatiqbar.com and enter code BAR20 to get 20% off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping. Again, go to eatiqbar.com and enter code BAR20. I did a little more thing before we get to the game. On a podcast on Monday, or no, last Friday, my buddy Peter Hamby said nobody likes James Comey. You mentioned earlier that you get fuck yous on the street back and forth. I

How do you, how are you processing that? Is that something that you're, do you have therapists? Is that something that you have to deal with personally? How do you react to something like that? Well, because I am a devoted fan, I was watching and listening when that man said that hurtful thing about me. And I thought, yeah, you bastard. My family, at least on the surface, seems to like me a lot. My dog died a few years ago, but was very fond of me. So I, I look, I,

I have to laugh. I'm married to a trained marriage and family therapist, thank God. So I have in-house help. But I'm a happy person because I... You ever feel like you need a hug? If I need a hug, I got five kids. I got five grandchildren. I watch my grandchildren all the time. And so my life is full of hugs and people who tell me I'm awesome, but that's because I'm their pop. Well, Peter just had his first child earlier this week. So congratulations to Peter Hamby's youngest daughter, Wren. I think the point he was making...

More to the point, as much as I am concerned about your personal mental well-being was like,

There's like a sense on the MAGA right that there is like this political wellspring of goodwill for you among the other tribe. I think, you know, maybe a kinder way of putting the point that Peter put was like, that's not actually true. You know, you are kind of in a no man's land politically. I mean, even though you're publicly for Kamala and et cetera, there are folks that have grievances with you across the spectrum. I think that's probably fair. Yeah, that's right. And I knew that's what he was talking about. And he's right. I mean, it...

There are partisans on the bell curve at both wings. Many of them have strong negative feelings for me. I can't do anything about that. And so it just is what it is. But yeah, the MAGA world is wrong that I am some influential figure, especially on the left side of the political spectrum.

I'm a bullwalker. I have no home except a group of people of principle who don't really care for liked but care deeply about this country and its values. And you're welcome here, but I've got some bad news. There are even a couple of bullworkers that are mad at you. So, you know, we just got to do our best in this world, Jim Comey. Like we can only you can only do your best and let the chips fall to that end. Here comes the game.

I believe, and again, you were a prosecutor once. You're more familiar with the rule of law than me.

I do believe that in this country, we can still say the number 86. Like 86 is still something we can say, I think, without threat. Is that true for you? Do you think that's right? I would hope so. Again, I had never heard of it used in a threatening sense. I actually still haven't seen any examples from literature or theater or any place else where it's used as a threat. But I mean, I took the post down because I thought...

Whether it's reasonable or not, if people are going to say that, I want no part of that. It's my Instagram account, for God's sakes. But anybody in the restaurant business knows 86 means just say we're out of the chicken or 86 that guy. He's drunk at the bar. We got to get him out of here. I'm pretty sure. And you weren't handcuffed yet. So I'm taking a risk that Eagle Ed Martin is not going to come for us. And the game here is 86 or don't 86. Jim Comey starting 86 Trump tariffs.

Should we 86 Trump's tariffs or don't 86 Trump's tariffs? We should get rid of Trump's tariffs. Okay. Are you afraid to say 86? One of the things he's targeting this morning, 50% tariff increase on Europe.

So that's going to really hurt Ikea. The Swedish, have you ever been in an Ikea? Many times, yeah. Okay, the Swedish meatballs. I've eaten the little meatballs. Yeah, okay. Are we 86ing the Swedish meatballs or are we not? I hope not. I hope we keep the meatballs and they remain free. Okay. The book, which we're going to get to next, take a lot of New York scenes. I've had to fly to New York a lot lately. Flying into JFK. Are we 86ing flying into JFK or are we still doing it? Okay.

I have not flown into JFK in many years. LaGuardia is Valhalla of airports, I'm told. So I would fly to LaGuardia. Valhalla's nice. I'm 86ing JFK. Not literally, Ed Martin. And John F. Kennedy's already dead. So no worries. Okay. We're going to continue. We've got six more. Martha Stewart's cookbook. Are we 86ing Martha Stewart's cookbook or not? You and Martha have a little past. We have history, but I feel like we're over the history and-

She was guilty as heck, but she was punished for her crime, and so I have nothing against her cookbook. So I wouldn't 86 it in any sense. We're not 86ing it. Great. Anthony Wiener's nudes. Are we 86ing Anthony Wiener's nudes, or are we going to still look at them? Those I would pitch out of the bar. Okay. People are asking you, how's the weather up there? Would you like to 86 that?

As a tall man, do you get asked that a lot? I get asked that fairly frequently. Most often people just say, how tall are you? But yeah, I wouldn't 86 that because it's a...

People don't mean it in any negative way, so I would let that one go. How about people asking about the 2016 campaign? Would you like to 86 that? That one I might want to have in the rearview mirror. Okay. Finally, the Reinhold Niebuhr Serenity Prayer. Are you 86ing that or are you embracing it in this era? No, embrace. Important part of being alive and staying sane. Knowing the difference, doing things you can change and things you can't, and having wisdom and connection with both. All right.

That is 86 or Don't 86 with James Comey. We still are in a free country where we can use, say, whatever number we want to. For now, May 23rd, 2025. We'll see what happens as we move forward.

This podcast is sponsored by IQ Bar. I've got good news and bad news. Here's the bad news. Most protein bars are packed with sugar and unpronounceable ingredients. The good news? There's a better option. I'm Will, and I created IQ Bar Plant Protein Bars to empower doers like you with clean, delicious, low-sugar brain and body fuel. IQ Bars are packed with 12 grams of protein, brain and body fuel, and 12 grams of protein.

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with IQ Bar. Go to eatiqbar.com and enter code BAR20 to get 20% off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping. Again, go to eatiqbar.com and enter code BAR20. Let's get to the book. It is...

FDR Drive. Give people a quick summary. I was going back and forth last night because I can only take so much of the other book. For YouTube, people should go check that out later. I'm interviewing an author who wrote about Sam Altman. And just as a brief aside, the more I learn about Sam Altman, the more concerned I am about the coming artificial intelligence apocalypse. But that's for a separate YouTube. And so I've only gotten through a little bit of it. So we don't want to have any spoilers. But why don't you give people a quick summary of the book?

It's a story about a right-wing podcaster based in New York who is trying to motivate his followers to physically target and engage in acts of violence against people he doesn't like.

a variety of people around the country. Does he post seashell pictures to do that? There are no seashell pictures. Interesting. Then I would start to have concerns that it was a book promo. Another thing that an editor would have stricken is making no sense at all. So it's about this podcaster and my protagonist, Nora Carlton, whether she can make a case and stop the violence. And it's about policing this line, which is really important, between speech and crime.

and about the challenges she faced and it's a twisty courtroom drama in the main that I won't give anything away but it's it's real it's true to the way things are really done and I think it will hold people pretty well we noticed producer Katie noticed the right-wing podcaster's name is Samuel Buchanan I didn't catch that but the initials are intriguing was that a accident yeah

S.B.? Samuel Buchanan? Yeah, I'm missing. Okay, no, just maybe it was in your subconscious. Because there is a very famous right-wing podcaster right now who likes to give me shit from time to time. Steve Bannon. S.B. It must have been deep in the subconscious. Deep in your subconscious, S.B. I do wonder, so you've been writing, this is your third one in the series. Yeah. Yeah.

Lots changed out there in the world. The interference of real life in what you're trying to write and you're trying to write stuff that is, as you just mentioned, true to kind of, you know, the advantage that you would maybe have over authors who are not do not have your background is that you kind of really know how these things work. But the way that things are working has been changing a lot very fast. And I just I do wonder if real life being stranger than fiction has created any hurdles for you.

It does in the sense that I have to figure out what to write next that will be interesting, but not turn off readers, right? Readers don't want to read in my stuff what they're getting in the news every day. I think it would depress them. And so I have to, you write these books, I write these books a year in advance, right? I'm just finishing writing.

The fourth, which is a Russian espionage story. And so Russian espionage will still be relevant in 2026. So I have to try and figure out. I don't know if it's too late to change it, but I heard that we are hiring spies in Greenland now. I don't know if you saw the story. We're looking into putting...

on the ground in Greenland. So maybe it could be a nuke espionage story. Move it to Greenland. I hadn't even thought of that. But who knows, right? You're supposed to skate to where the puck will be. I have no idea where the puck is going to be a year from now. So I wrote this book not knowing what America would be

be exactly like in May of 2025. But I knew that this question of, so where is the line between speech and violence and the influence of these right-wing voices of hate would still be a feature of our life. So next spring, Russian espionage will still be a feature of our life. I don't know what the book after that will be. And then I'll be out of the Trump administration, God willing, I think by that point. Talk to me about the storyboarding process of this. Somebody who's written a nonfiction book

like just organizing all the interviews I did for the nonfiction book was challenging for me. And so like writing a fiction book, uh,

Trying to remember what the protagonist had said in previous books or in previous chapters or yesterday would be a challenge for me. How do you do that? Do you have a big whiteboard? Do you have an app on your phone that helps you with it? Or AI? Have you incorporated AI? No, it's about choosing the right life partner. My spouse keeps all that online. We start by the two of us talking about what might be a cool story.

And then we agree that this is what the story will be. And I go off and write a detailed summary of it. So like a five, 10 page capturing how it's going to go. And then we figure out, so which parts of that should I show to the reader and when? And then I go off to write and she follows it on a Google doc. And the reason it's so important is she's smarter than I, but she's also read much

much more fiction than I. And so she says, I'm every reader. And she'll say, ah, no, no, no. You're drifting or your characters are starting to sound like each other or this is repetitive. I get that loving feedback in little bubbles on a Google doc. And that keeps me online. Then I go out to the five kids with the story.

My protagonist is inspired by my oldest daughter, who is the lead prosecutor in the P. Diddy case today. And so I get a lot of feedback about the story and about the particulars because I want to keep it current. And they helped me a lot with that. The character part not sounding the same part does sound like another thing that would be a big challenge for me. I've gotten good at writing like Tim.

which is a challenge in itself, actually. It's just like sounding like yourself when you write rather than losing your voice. But having nine characters that have different voices, like do you have little note cards or something that helps you remember the spirit of the character? No, what helps me is I've based the key characters on real people. Yeah. Right. The investigator in the case, Benny Dugan, he was in all the books,

is closely based on one of my friends who died in 2006 from melanoma and was the best investigator I ever knew. It was an enormous 6'5", 250, deep Brooklyn-accented, brush-cut hair guy. And I can hear him. He used to call me Mr. Smooth, but he would say, Mr. Smooth. And so I can hear his voice. And what I do is I spend a lot of time closing my eyes and trying to hear it

And then I type on my laptop. I sit there with it open and my fingers in the keyboard and just say, okay, Kenny, what is he saying now? And that makes it easier for me than a made up character. It keeps it online much more easily. And because my protagonist is inspired by my oldest daughter and really a combination of all five kids that I can close my eyes and picture it. And that keeps it online, but other smaller characters, um,

will drift. And that's where I need Patrice's help to say, no, no, no, this guy is sounding like this woman. You can't have that happen. Writing women might be kind of tough. It would be tough for me, I would think. And your main character is a woman. Yeah, it is. And that's obviously, my household is dominated by intelligent, strong, tall women. And so, that helps me. I can close my eyes and picture those voices well. And then

again, they'll give me that feedback if I miss it. What is the hardest part for you of the process? Like what's most challenging? Seeing it clearly after I've read it multiple times. You just can't. It's like trying to proofread your own work. You miss typos, but trying to ask myself if I got it right. You get to a place where you can't tell and that's where you need help. And I have a circle of, I mentioned my family, I have a circle of friends who read all of my stuff and they're

They're much less loving. So they're looking for things to find that are wrong. I need that because I can't see it after a while.

So your daughter, the real life version of your daughter, are you monitoring the P. Diddy case? I know nothing about the P. Diddy case, actually. You can only take in so much information in this world. And I'm taking in way too much about the stupidity in Washington. So can you give me a brief? Have you been following her work? What's happening? What's the progress? Yeah, I follow it through the New York Times, does regular updates. They have people in the courtroom regularly.

who send out little updates. So that's my way for following it. She won't talk to me about the case and won't let me go. She will let my wife go and watch. But if I go, quote, it'll be a thing, dad, close quote. And so I don't get to go. But I follow it online because you can't, it's federal courts. There's no cameras. You're not getting real-time transcripts. So I follow it from the little snippets sent out by reporters. And how's she doing?

She's doing great. She's really good and better than I. And her passion has been sex crimes, sex trafficking, working with victims. She has a gift.

And I worry about it because that kind of stuff can really chew you up, but she has a gift. And so it's, I think she's doing very well. The trial in particular, I can't tell from the outside. You can never know. Sure. Unless you're in the courtroom. I don't even know what he's accused of. It seems like he did it. He was, he was, he was abusing women. Was it also boys or was it just women? No women. He's accused as I understand it of sex trafficking women to coerce them into having sex with male prostitutes. So he could watch, um,

And then he's accused separately of the crime of supporting, commissioning interstate prostitution. So it's not children. It's grown women who are alleged to have been dominated and coerced by him in the worst possible ways.

That's pretty sick. You got a great life if you're P. Diddy, you know? Doesn't feel like that would be necessary. It's sad. Well, that's cool, though, that you get to kind of, even though you don't get to literally watch because, you know, you don't want it to be a thing. It's cool to have a daughter that's doing that, right? You got to be brimming with pride. Yeah, I am. I worried when she said she wanted to do it and...

that she would go where I worked as a federal prosecutor, as a line prosecutor, where I was the U.S. attorney. And here's the true thing. I worried she would be known as my daughter. Honestly, I am known as her father. I love that. All right. Final thing.

You're a little more Zen than me, as demonstrated by the seashell pic. Even your protests or your commentary, maybe, let's call it, on the political moment is a little bit more Zen in nature. What are your worries, though? Catastrophize with me for a second. Let's close in the spirit of the Bullard podcast. What are the things that you're the most concerned about that you're seeing in the government right now? Well, I'm worried about an economic catastrophe.

You have experts who can talk to you about this, but I worry very much about what might happen if the creditworthiness of the United States, which affects the bond markets and people's willingness to buy our debt collapses. We have not seen that in, well, we haven't seen it. And so what we would do then while led by an incompetent in the middle of a crisis like that, I can't even imagine. And so I'm very worried about that. Closer to my career, I worry very much about

Are we keeping our eye on the ball of the terrorism threat and the counterintelligence threat? Which, again, we're at the top of the FBI stack for a reason. And there's a real danger that we'll become distracted and lose our focus with catastrophic results. Okay, that's good. That warms me up. Enjoy your day. That is right in my wheelhouse. All right, Jim Comey. Well, you know...

We had our moments. October 2016 wasn't maybe my favorite Jim Comey moment. But in spite of it, in spite of the fact that nobody likes you, you've got me. In spite of myself, I like Jim Comey. You've got me, your wife, your dead dog, ABA and Paul. And that's it. What else do you need? The book is FDR Drive. There are two other ones if you want to start at the beginning. Which one was first? Westport? Was Westport the first one? No, Central Park West was first. Central Park West. Then Westport, then FDR Drive.

All right. So if you want to start at the beginning, check out Central Park West. That is Jim Comey. Monday's Memorial Day, but I'm working Memorial Day. Me and Bill Crystal, we're not taking off. All right. So you guys enjoy your barbecues. Enjoy your crawfish boils this weekend. Enjoy your beach walks. Be careful with any Instagram pictures you post on the beach. You know, double check. And we'll see you back here on Monday for another edition of the show. Peace. Nobody likes me.

Nobody likes me, but that's okay, cause I don't like y'all anyway, and I don't like y'all anyway. Fuck all y'all, all y'all watch talk for me, my whip talk for me, my gat talk for me, bad with

Even bitches who don't know me, they wanna blow me Cause this shit I floss with, he's saying a lot for me I came in the rap humble, I don't give a fuck now I serve anybody like niggas who hustle up Damn, I hope the price go up, caps will come down The D's running my grip, nowhere to be found Niggas who hustle for me, they don't even stash Tracks, they keep them on them, right there in their ass crack When I don't like a nigga, I don't pretend to Have the paramedics rapping your

I don't believe you murder Fuck around and leave you murdered

I'm not a marksman, why spark it? So I spray random. I'm not a pretty nigga, but my moms think I'm handsome. I hate to hear he say, she say shit. Unless he say, she says, you're on my date. It's no coincidence. Niggas who fuck with me get shot up. I do a Cali style drive-by and tear your block up. You saw a dude can put

I stay with the Mac niggas drive the place be what in the hood they like damn 50 really spit it on them Yeah, 50 really shit it on a beef. You don't want none so don't start none. You just a small play in this game play your boss Don't want no part to me. I'm trying to figure out how y'all started me you gonna make me get you on the lake

The Bullwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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This podcast is sponsored by IQ Bar. I've got good news and bad news. Here's the bad news. Most protein bars are packed with sugar and unpronounceable ingredients. The good news? There's a better option. I'm Will, and I created IQ Bar Plant Protein Bars to empower doers like you with clean, delicious, low-sugar brain and body fuel. IQ Bars are packed with 12 grams of protein, brain nutrients like magnesium and lion's mane, and zero weird stuff. And

And right now, you can get 20% off all IQ Bar products, plus free shipping. Try our delicious IQ Bar sampler pack with 7 plant protein bars, 4 hydration mixes, and 4 enhanced coffee sticks. Clean ingredients, amazing taste, and you'll love how you feel. Refuel smarter, hydrate harder, caffeinate larger.

with IQ Bar. Go to eatiqbar.com and enter code BAR20 to get 20% off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping. Again, go to eatiqbar.com and enter code BAR20.