Debt-Free Living Is a Superpower
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From the Ramsey Network, this is The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships. I'm Ramsey personality George Campbell, joined by my very good friend Dr. John Deloney, and we're taking your calls at 888-825-5225. This is your chance to get your questions answered, to take the right next step for your life, your money, your relationships, whatever's going on.

John will help and I'll be along for the ride. Let's get to it. Holly is in Louisville, Kentucky coming up first. What's going on, Holly?

Hey, guys. Thank you so much for taking my call. Sure. So I am going to be up front. I have a spending addiction. It's been going on for many years. It got to the point. I'm 32 now, but I was 21 when it started, really. I was given a six-figure sum of $250,000 by people in my family that had passed on. And I spent it within a year and a half to two years tops.

I mean, it was crazy. I went on trips and bought stuff I never got a refund for, things like that. I moved with it. Um,

And now I'm facing not being able to pay my own rent. I have family helping me with rent because I just, I suck at managing money. I had a bankruptcy that was done in 2021 because I was married and my ex-husband and I made some really bad choices with money. So I know what the psychological things, I'm kind of glad that John, Dr. John's on the call today because he's

I mean, I go to therapy. I take my medications for my mental health concerns, but nothing's working. I like the instant gratification, things like that. So I was just looking for a little bit of Ramsey guidance with this because I can't. One minute I'm following Dave's plan. The next minute I'm planning on taking out 50K in student loans for a master's degree. And I just, I don't know what to do. So before we get going, what is your clinical diagnosis?

I have bipolar 2. They thought it was bipolar 1 at first. My current provider thinks it's bipolar 2, which is not big of a difference. And then OCD, PTSD. Well, that's pretty significant. It's pretty significant. True, true. Yeah, you're right. You're right. It's still bipolar, though, I think. And I have OCD, PTSD, and borderline personality. So I've got a myriad of problems. I've also had a lot of hospitalizations. I'm telling the whole world that. That's great to tell the whole

world no well I mean it's your life and so you get to choose who you tell but hospitalizations for self-harm yeah and and intrusive thoughts things like that and I got help and doing a lot better with those things the spending addiction is a really big problem I mean I'm literally down to 35 35 dollars in my banking account checking account and my dad just sent me some money um so let me just let me jump in here let me jump in here let me jump in here okay

I want to change your language a little bit, okay? The language that we use, especially in these situations, is really powerful. So I'm going to shift that a little bit, okay? Okay. When we keep saying the word addiction, addiction, addiction, addiction, it gives this thing a power over us. And addictive behaviors are very, very powerful. So don't hear me say that. But I want to just for this conversation, I want to shift a little bit, okay? Let me ask you a wild question.

Okay. And this comes from working with folks who struggle with addiction, and usually it's an inside baseball question that most people don't even know that we ask in these conversations, okay? Fair enough. What does spending do for you positively? I think it releases like endorphins, dopamine. No, no, no. Stay out of the brain chemistry stuff. Just what does it give you? Oh.

It gives me whatever I'm buying in that moment and that and for a few minutes that makes me happy like if I go out I go out to eat a lot so that's the biggest thing I don't like to eat at home so I prefer to take a DoorDash or go out to eat and that's a big source of my problem but the instant gratification is what makes me happy. Is there a part of that and this is a leading question obviously so tell me if I'm wrong but is there a part of clicking is there a part of seeing something and buying the scrolling and

Is there a part of that action or maybe all of it that lets you get outside of your own skin for a minute because it feels so uncomfortable just to be you sometimes? Oh, yeah. I mean, I've never had good self-confidence, so it makes me feel like I'm actually distracted from myself or distracted from being in my head for just a few minutes even. Sure, sure. So I think what I often like to do with people who are struggling with different addictions, gambling, alcohol, spending –

is I want to look at the thing it's giving you that feels like positive for a minute. Because if you're struggling with alcohol, alcohol makes it to where it doesn't hurt so bad to live sometimes. It's just that alcohol will kill you over time, right? Smoking weed all the time, that actually makes you feel less anxious in a moment. It pulls you out of your skin and lets you just float for a bit. And that actually is helpful. It will just take a lot of stuff from you too.

And so what I want to say, spending this opportunity we have and this crazy weird little sliver of history we have, and it won't be like this forever, and it's never been like this before, but we can just scroll endlessly and click and click and click, and somebody will show up at our house with some food. Somebody will show up to our house with a box. And for a second, it lets us not be in our own skin. Perfect.

You have most people I would say start with the ramifications and that hasn't stopped you right so bankruptcy hasn't stopped you Mental health diagnostics hasn't stopped So there's some there's some normal what I would call regular speed bumps or breaks that normally help folks But not everybody and so you just have to open-handedly say those big like Those big consequences. They haven't stopped me so cool now even their data point and

And so now what you have to do is have the courage to say not, hey, well, you keep sending me money, send me money, send me money, send me money. But will you help me for a season? Father, friend, therapist, therapist couldn't do this, but coworker, like people you trust. Will you help me set up some incredibly high hurdles when it comes to me and my spending? What does that look like? That means canceling Amazon Prime today.

Or giving somebody else, have them change the passcode so that only they can get it. So if you really need something, you have to go through them. Giving somebody your debit card for 60 days or 90 days. So you have no way to spend. Freezing your own credit report or having somebody sit with you and freeze it so that there has to be some hurdles you have to jump through. Because what you need right now is some external breaks because your internal systems just aren't getting the message right now.

No, they're not. Does that make sense? It does. No one's ever explained that to me like that before. I've had a friend offer to take my paychecks and send them to her over PayPal. And as I need them, she'll send them money back. I don't even want to do that. I don't want to do that. I don't want to be doing electronic stuff because the more you're in there, they have these, the folks who have made electronic payment systems are simply better than all of us.

at controlling our behavior. That's why they're amazing at what they do. They've created the most addictive slot machines in human history and they put them in our pocket. So you don't have any cash. You can pay with a credit card. You don't have that. You can just do PayPal. You don't have that. Just do Apple Pay. You know what? You don't even have to get the card out of your wallet. You can just tap the whole thing. You don't have to touch anything anymore.

And so if you're getting a paycheck and you're PayPal-ing it over here, you're going to Venmo some of it over here and you're going to spend some. I want to drop that whole system. Okay. Yeah. And that means for you, you're going to have to be really intentional about putting some big hurdles. And then when you feel I want to buy something, I want to buy something and you don't have the ability to do that.

that's when you know, okay, I got to call my counselor. I got to call my AA support person if you're in recovery. I've got to call my close friends. I've got to call my pastor. I've got to call somebody and exhale through this thing. And that's the seeds of long-term behavior change. It will be incredibly uncomfortable for 60 or 90 days till you break these habits. But put some huge hurdles in front of yourself.

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Olivia's up next in Boise. What's going on, Olivia? Hi. So my question is, my parents had some medical emergencies that have drained their savings. My siblings and I have been helping to support them financially, but we've all been kind of drowning in that lately and just not seeing an end in sight. So I was calling to see what you guys felt like was the best way to use the money that we're all contributing to help them the most.

What happened with their health? My mom, sorry, had a stroke that left her completely disabled. Oh, so sorry. Yeah. I hate that. And do they have insurance right now?

They do have health insurance. It only covered so much. And then my dad had to cut back to working only part time. And so that's put the biggest financial strain. He's only working, you know, three to four days a week as her health allows. So let me start with this question and kind of reverse engineer it. Often when kids come in to help in these kind of situations, help looks like keeping everything exactly the same.

Same house, same bills, same streaming services and all that kind of stuff. Have you all had the conversation about here's our new reality? And hey, dad, we're going to have to potentially sell this house. We need to move into a condo or an apartment. Are you all moving in with one of the kids? Like, have you all had that? Hey, this is the new reality. Or are you all just pumping money in to keep their life exactly the same as it was?

A little bit of both. So they did have to relocate there in a rental now. The rental prices in our area are really expensive, so that's a big strain. But the struggle, so he works sales, he's on commission, and he's just not making enough to get by. But it just varies. We never know how much he's going to need. And we all want to help as much as possible, but it feels like we're getting by barely. But we're looking at the future. They had to drain their retirement savings.

They don't qualify for any benefits. And we're just not sure. They're in their 50s. Oh, so they're still young, huh? Yeah. Yeah. So he's in a world where he's going to have to accept a new reality. He's got to go get different jobs.

And I know that's a very hard conversation to have with your dad, who's also like doing medical care. I mean, doing in-home care. Right. Yes. What would care look like if he wasn't taking care of her? We're all helping right now. We have someone that helps once a week. It's really expensive. And we're just paying that out of pocket. And then my siblings and I all help split up the care.

because he has to have care 24/7. But I mean, if anyone's sick, if anybody has something for work, he has to call in sick. So that's really putting a strain on him as well because he only works, he only makes money when he works, you know? - Yeah. What do the bills look like right now? What do you guys need to cover for them? - It just depends on how much he makes in a month. I mean, they have their rent.

They don't have any car payments, which is good. Medical bills are really expensive. They're still paying on that every month. And then just, you know, food, insurance, those things, just the basics. They don't have any debt, but... Can we push pause on the medical bills so they can cover their own food and utilities? That is something that we talked about was trying to maybe renegotiate because the payment was like $700 a month and that was really hurting them. What's the total balance on the medical debt?

Oh, I think it's like probably three, 400,000. Oh my goodness. Yeah. And they, they know they'll never see that. Right. I mean, it's, it's like monopoly money. Yeah. Well, how long ago did this stroke happen? It's been, we're coming up on the two year anniversary. Okay. Two year anniversary. So what I'm going to tell you may not, may not happen in reality. Okay. I'm giving you a fantasy dream scenario. Okay.

But this is one of those perfect moments. If you have a six month window or a one year window, or in your case, a two year window, sometimes these anniversary markers are great moments to get everybody, if possible, either on zoom or in the same room. And they just simply become, we have to have a reality conversation, dad and all the siblings.

And at some point, whether it's you or whether it's one of your siblings, every sibling group seems to have a dad whisper and a mom whisper. You know, I don't know who that is in your in your group, but that would say, Dad, we need to know how much money you'll need every month. Because right now, y'all because because also y'all can't plan for your lives either. Right. Yeah. And so he has to I mean, he's got 20 plus years more of working life left.

And just spit-shotting a 100% sales commission job is not going to get it done. He's going to have to get a job where he's got some sort of health insurance, if at all possible, some job where he maybe makes less money overall, but he's got a consistent income coming in. So they can make any sort of planning and arrangements. And then you'll have to be honest with each other about...

Are they going to move in with somebody and take the back bedroom and the back bathroom? And does anybody want to do that? No, but that's just the reality we're in. Or y'all sit down as siblings and say, from here on indefinitely, we can contribute 200 bucks. You know, sister can contribute 500 bucks because she's an attorney and her husband's a surgeon. Like who knows what y'all situation is, but just get very clear so that y'all can sit down and have this two year reconciliation meeting and say, we've all talked about

We can come up with 700 bucks between us per month indefinitely. But from here on out, we need to come up with a more strategic plan, a more systematic plan because this is just chaotic for everybody. Also knowing your dad's entire life as he knew it has changed. Your mom's life as she knew it has changed, right? And so it's not like this is fun or easy, but we just have to have a choosing reality conversation.

In your particular family system, is that a possibility? Some families are absolutely on top of that and some just simply cannot do that.

We have done that. That's kind of where we got to the point that we are. Some siblings are close by, but they've been more willing to help than others. And like you said, some of our financial situations are different. It's felt like it's mostly on a couple of us. And that's where we're starting to feel concerned because we're like, okay, is this going to be this way for the rest of our life? And should we be doing something to put money away for them for the future now too, because they cashed out all their savings. So we're like, what we're doing is sustaining us for now, but it feels like there's

There's no future, you know. It feels like your dad needs to be very radical about going to get work to support him and his wife. And the conversation needs to extend to the siblings about how are we going to be there or not be there to support mom. And what I want to challenge you on is if you're one of the siblings that the lion's share of the support is falling on, if you're carrying a bigger load, I want you to choose guilt over resentment when it comes to unspoken conversations. Yeah.

Because you're going to feel guilty about saying anything. You're going to start getting mad and not say anything. And then all of a sudden, you're going to have a brother who lives in North Carolina, a sister lives in Maine, and you're going to hate them when their number comes up on your cell phone. And that's really not their fault yet because they don't even know. You get what I'm saying? Right. Is that fair? Yes, definitely. So maybe it's not even about mom and dad. Maybe it's just about siblings. Everybody gets in a room and says, okay, we're looking at 25 more years of this potentially. Yeah.

Right. So I'm, I can't keep going like this. I miss my family. I miss my husband. We don't have the money to keep doing this, whatever things that you need to say out loud. And if you have a brother who's also helping or another sister who's also helping, let's just be honest about where we're at and put, call your other siblings onto the carpet. If they say we are not contributing, we're not helping. We're out. You might be mad at them, be angry, but at least, you know, and you can begin to plan. Is that fair? Yeah.

Definitely. No, definitely. Okay. I just need you to prepare some space in your heart for this to go really bad for them to be like, yeah, we're not doing anything. Great. And then the next step is going, dad, how can we make sure that you can cover your own bills? We're happy to help all you need it, but I don't want you guys essentially paying the debt for them. I'd rather him be able to cover his household. And if he can't pay the medical debt, he can't pay the debt.

And that's going to be a conversation with the hospital and it'll be ongoing. And, you know, you as a family can advocate for your mom and do all the homework at all creative with the options. And, you know, can we apply for disability? When will Medicare kick in? Just know all of the next steps. Like John said, let's have kind of a yearly check in and go, OK, what's the next step? What is the next year of care look like? Let's look back at how much it costs, how much everyone's pitching in. And that's all you can do is develop a game plan and be real clear with communication along the way.

Has dad come out of the fog yet? Or is he just running? Is he just collapsed every night after a full day of care and then a full day of trying to be a salesperson?

Sure. Have you all applied for SSI benefits yet for her?

Sorry, sorry. We're getting up on the clock here. Yeah. This is a messy situation.

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So go to knockbox.com slash Ramsey and check it out. Knockbox.com slash Ramsey. Ellie is with us up next in Dallas, Texas. Ellie, welcome to the Ramsey Show. Thank you. What's going on? So, you know, I've been married just over 20 years now to a man that, you know, he has a great job.

Naval Reserve is the officer in the Naval Reserves. You know, I'm a nurse. We have great incomes, but, you know, we started out this marriage with...

you know, it all kind of evolved because we really started this marriage with no communication about finances. And, you know, it's the typical, I'm the spender, he's the saver, but to him, he's very black and white, very engineer, like needs nothing in his life. You know, he doesn't need vacations, doesn't have hobbies, friends, nothing. So, you know, that just puts my spending on steroids, which, um,

I don't even spend that much. I mean, it's just that... But to him, you're Congress. You might as well be. You're out of control. Right. So he runs with that because he's so... Yes, he's just so literal to the point... I mean, and that is the issue. The degree that he is literal is the problem. And it's created this...

You know, he's gotten so financially abusive. We've never shared accounts. He, you know, he transfers what he wants by allowance to my account. I can't see the other accounts. Okay, hold on one second. Hold on one second. Hold on, hold on, hold on. He's not on the call. So I can tell you right now, he sucks. That's not a way to be married to somebody, okay? But he's not on the call. I understand. So let me ask you, what have you done to try to bridge this gap?

Well, I mean, the problem is he only cares about finances. No, no, you just brought you, you went right back to him. Come to you. What have you done to try to bridge this gap? I've tried to talk to him, you know, and say we need to communicate about this. We came into the marriage, I came in with like a two-year-old, and I think we lived very separately at first. Our finances were divided, which was fine. But when we had our twins, it needed to be...

Combined and then it all just went downhill from there. I have tried to talk to him, but he's one that is very, I mean, I say narcissistic, Asperger's. There's no having a conversation with him. He deflects, gets defensive. You can't get past that. We have never communicated in the 20 years. Okay. We can't get past me trying to dive into it. Let's do something different then, okay?

Have you ever sat down with your husband and said, listen, because here's what's funny. I can feel myself getting defensive talking to you. And I barely know how Excel works. I'm as far my wife's love language is spreadsheets and lists, lists. OK, and I know how Excel works. I know one of the formulas works in Excel. Yep. OK, same. So have you sat down with him and said, listen, I'm I've got one foot out the door.

I don't feel safe in this marriage. I don't feel like not, we need to communicate better because he's probably thinking I communicate fine with the equal sum function on Excel. What is so hard? Why are we not communicating? If you said, I don't feel safe in this house. Yes, he doesn't, that, that doesn't faze him. He doesn't. Okay. Okay. But listen, listen, listen, listen.

Then you are, you're every, if you've tried that, if you have said, I don't feel safe in my home, I don't feel safe in this marriage. I'm worried about our kids. And he has looked at you, whether either exactly or behaviorally and said, I don't care what you think or what you feel. Listen, if he's done that, then every second you spend going back to 20 years ago and I've done this and I, is a, is a waste of energy. Yeah.

Yes. Yes. It just is. He has left you so long ago. He just never filed papers. Nope. Okay. Yep. 100%. And so the better use of your energy and your time and your spirit and your love for yourself and for your kids is to exhale and to grieve that emptiness of your marriage in real time and then go be about this scary question, what am I going to do now?

Well, that's my real question is how do you get out when you have no access to any of the finances? I can't get a retainer fee. I mean, and the question I had is, do you open, you know, all my friends say, open up a credit card. I mean, I'll max that baby out in six months because I don't even know if I can get credit because I've never had a credit card when I did. The one time I did. Hold on, hold on. He doesn't want to spend anything.

Stop with all that. You're just spinning circles inside your own chest. I know it's scary. Okay. Have you called an attorney yet? I don't have money to even. You don't know that though. I don't have access to money to even do a consult fee. You don't know that? I have. Yes. In the past, I have talked to a couple of attorneys. Okay. Have you sat down and said, my husband, we have a ton of money. I have no access to it. And so I'm going to have to pay you as a percentage on the back end.

The couple that I have weren't really willing to do that. Okay, then go to the next one. That's been five years now. Then go to the next one or go get yourself a part-time job. And where is your money going? I have a job. Okay. He handles it. Now, where do your paychecks go? They go direct deposit into his bank account that he has sole ownership of?

Well, we have, we recently, five years ago, we opened up a joint account that his paycheck and my check go into. And then he takes everything out and transfers it back to his account and leaves me, you know, like $300 a week. But listen, you have control, but you have say in the joint account, right?

No, but if I take more than he wants me to, he will deduct that. Change the direct deposit to go into your account. Go right to your boss. I have. I have. And then he tells me then he then he tells me he he's going to he's going to change his direct deposit and won't give me anything because I'm playing games. He's done it. No, no, no, no. His direct deposit. You are playing games. Tell him I am planning to leave you.

I'm worried to say that only because he knows that we talk about divorce all the time, but he doesn't care. That doesn't faze him. He doesn't care if I leave. But if I tell him that, he'll just be like, do what you need to do. Okay, then why does that scare you so bad?

Because I don't know how to get money to get out because he's going to play games during the divorce. I know I'll be fine at the end. I'm worried about I can't just run out like my friends and go get an apartment. He's going to stop paying the phone bill. He's going to take all the things like stop paying the car insurance. He's going to cut off everything and tell me he can't pay it because now we have to pay for a divorce. Ellie, Ellie, Ellie, is this real?

Oh, no, I know it's not. I just want to get out and I don't know how to get out without a dime, how to walk away without a dime. I don't care about the relationship. How much money do you make? How much money do you make in your job? Well, I'm only working part time now. I probably make only about forty thousand as a nurse. He makes, you know, upwards of you might have to go full time if you are if your marriage is this far gone and you're with somebody who's so abusive. Listen, listen, Ellie, listen, what you're saying simply isn't true.

You make $40,000 a year and you could turn a switch on and make $65,000 starting tomorrow. And it would change your kids' lives. It would change your life. You'd have to get childcare. You'd have to get rides. All that is true. But you could have an apartment tomorrow if you wanted one. Period. And you might have to pay the phone bill. You might have to pay car insurance. All that is true. But you could do that without credit. Yes, you can.

You don't need credit to switch car insurance and to get a phone. You're not going to go into debt. Right. So please don't open a credit card. You have money. You can do this. Are you in debt right now? No. No. Good. I'm not. I mean, we have like $10,000 on one credit card, but I mean... That your name is on? More than that, yes.

You're making, you've made up so many stories. It's hard. Listen, you've made up so many stories in your mind about what's going to happen and this is going to happen and that's going to happen. That's called anxiety. You are, you are creating future narratives and you're experiencing them in the now. So worried. Cause I know he's going to make this a limit, you know, he is, he is. Cause he's, he might, maybe he is that kind of guy. Okay. But what are you, what's your option?

to keep just wrapping this spider's web around your arms and your legs and your eyes and your ears and your nose and your neck and all over. Or he's going to do what he's going to do. I'm going to go do the next right thing for me and my family.

Period. Yes, yes. I mean, my kids are in college, but, you know, he... Then you could be in a one-bedroom apartment tomorrow with $40,000. You can go to full-time tomorrow and make $80,000 or $60,000. All of these things are true. You can change direct deposit, and yes, he's going to retaliate, and he's going to do all these things. It doesn't matter. You're going to take ownership of the things you have control over, and there's more in control than you think. It's day one. Go make your move.

What's up guys, it's Jade. And let me tell you, when my husband and I had $280,000 of student loan debt, we were not sitting around waiting on the government to bail us out. We did the hard work to pay it off ourselves. So if you're still holding out hope that forgiveness is coming, that's like you waiting for your landlord to start paying your rent. It ain't gonna happen.

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We're headed to New York City up next with Sarah. What's going on, Sarah? Hi. So my – well, first of all, thanks for taking my call. I watch you guys all the time. Oh, thank you. So I did want to just start off with my question, but I'm not sure if I'm even asking the right one. So my question is, are we making the smartest financial decision and also decision for our marriage as me and my husband currently live with our in-laws?

So, well, my in-laws, so his parents. But basically, we have an amazing relationship. I mean, I have, we've never butt heads about anything. We're very independent in terms of, they don't butt into my marriage, I don't butt into theirs. And it started off temporary, and we originally planned to move out. But because the living situation is really just really serene with them, and we just live well and have a better quality of life.

We made the mutual decision, me and my husband, to stay with them along just our whole life journey. The eventual goal is to move out of our two-bedroom apartment that he's had for a long time, so we have a very low amount of rent, and get a four-bedroom, hopefully somewhere in the south.

And that will take a lot of money, especially looking at the interest rates right now. So I'm wondering, everybody, I mean, everyone I talk to about this thinks that we're crazy. I can never do that. And we get all that commentary. But is it really just commentary or are we just too comfortable and we need to, you know, we need to just make the move and move out? Yeah.

So are you asking the right question? You started off saying, well, we're very independent, but the definition of independent would be not living with your in-laws. Can we agree on that? Agreed. Okay. Do you want to be independent? It sounds like you guys are happy with this situation. Nobody's forcing you to do anything.

I've just never found it to be a great long-term situation regardless of if the relationship is good or not. I think it is healthy for you two to be on your own even if that means that house dream is delayed by a few years. So what is the situation now? What are you guys actually saving per month? Where are you putting that money and what is the strategic goal here? Is it six months? Is it ten years?

So the goal is to have around $200,000 in cash saved up so that we can put down a down payment, be able to buy furniture, buy cars cash when we actually make the big move for all of us. The other portion of it is the additional reason why we feel that we want to take this on or agree to take this on too is because they...

I we we could live separately, but they would be much worse off without the financial support that that. Oh, see, we've changed. We've changed the riddle now. You're no longer doing this because it benefits you now as well. They need us.

So it's okay to have a quid pro quo, but let's call it out that there's benefit to both parties here and that if you cut ties, it would hurt them and maybe hurt the relationship. Yeah.

Potentially, but more so I think the decision more so when we keep talking about it, when we crunch the numbers and we sit down and me and my husband talk it over because obviously this comes up, it really comes down to a conversation of I'm uncomfortable in this apartment because we want more space. And that is really just a matter of time. It's never really the question of the relationship that we have by them living with us.

And I don't know. I honestly, I don't know if I'm making the right choice. By proxy, you've now taken on the responsibility to prop up their finances artificially. Because if you guys weren't there, how would they cover their rent? What would they do?

Would they have to downsize, move? They would be able to cover it, but they probably wouldn't be able to get out of this situation because the rent is so low because of how long they've lived here. But Sarah, have they ever set you and your husband down and said, we need you to take care of our finances with us, we need some help? No. Okay, all right, just put a period right there. We definitely stay out of each other's finances. Put a period right there. Have they said...

We just love having y'all here. We know it's expensive for you millennials to even dream of buying a house. Y'all stay here as long as you want. We love having you and the kids around. Y'all just save up some money and we'll deal with that then.

They – more so the conversation if it ever comes up because it's almost like taboo. Like, they won't touch finances with us. We won't touch it with them. They never asked us to pay rent. We just started doing it kind of situation. And the only conversation in regards to that that they've had with us is just that, like, maybe it's better if we live separately because they also get the opinions from family on, like –

This scenario. So I'm sure they probably feel that pressure, too. But we're all happy. Or maybe they want y'all out and they don't know how to say it. Oh, yeah. Like, wow. Susie says that y'all should be living on your own these days. And Janet says her kids had to move out. They might want y'all to go and they just want to be they're too kind to say it.

Maybe. I don't know. But the big thing here, George, you can tell me if I'm wrong, I don't hear that you have a problem with his parents. I hear that you and your husband have not agreed on a purpose and a direction for y'all's life. And so you throw around comically big numbers like, when we get $200,000 in cash, then we'll leave. Well, you know, when we need to keep doing this and we should pay rent, y'all are just going a million different directions at the same time. How long have you lived there? Mm-hmm.

It's going on six years. And how much is in the savings account after six years? Our combined net worth now is $250,000, but that's across retirement. No, how much is in the savings account? Because you told me you did this to save money in this account. Savings is $60,000. So you guys save $10,000 a year in this account on average. How much do you make? Our household income is $160,000. You and your husband?

Yes. And out of that $160,000 was no rent. You can only save $10,000. Come on. No, no, no. In the high-yield savings, because we save each around $20,000 a year across retirement and savings. I understand, but the stated goal was not we want to save for retirement. It was we want to be able to get our own place. We need $200,000. So if we play out the math on this, out of the $200,000, you have $140,000 left, which by your math –

Is going to be 14 more years of living there, and we'll have this money. So how old are you guys? So that's madness. I'll say it for you. 28 and 29. 28 and 29. Okay. So by the time we're in our mid-40s, maybe we'll have $200,000. Who knows what home prices will be in New York City by then for a four-bedroom.

Well, according to their latest election, they're going to be giving them away. So maybe if you'll hang on, it'll be free rent for everyone in New York. But I'm playing this crazy scenario out because this has been your reality. And it's pointing to the greater problem I have with living with in-laws. There's nothing morally wrong about it. I just think you guys have been comfortable for too long. And if you were on your own, you'd go –

how can we raise our income? How can we climb this ladder that we're on at work in order to make $250,000 to save up? And I think there's something in your spirit that changes when it's on you to do it and you're not comfortable going, well, we can spend a little more. We can door dash. We don't have as many expenses. That's what I've just found to be true. I'm not saying that's true of you guys, but based on the numbers, saving up $10,000 a year is not going to get you to your goal in any near future. And Sarah, can I ask you one personal question just between me and you and George and a

You can't be fully anchored into a boy who, even if he's the father of your kids, who still lives in his mommy's house six years later, not because he has to, but because there's just no other direction. That's so, no. Okay, so for that one, no.

Okay, okay, here's the deal. He needs to take on you. You're his wife. He needs to take on you as priority numero uno. And when y'all are anchored in together and have an established financial life together, then he can be about taking care of his children and his parents.

Y'all need to get real about, like what George just said, this trajectory. Y'all come up with a real plan and put that real plan into action.

Okay, you guys, remember the four walls of a budget. Food, utilities, shelter, and transportation. Right now, I want to focus on food because inflation is driving up the cost of groceries and we're all feeling it. But all these shoppers can save up to 36% on an average shopping trip, which adds up to be about $4,000 a year for a family of four. Four.

That's A-L-D-I dot U-S.

From the Ramsey Network, this is The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships. I'm George Campbell, joined by bestselling author Dr. John Deloney, and we're taking your calls at 888-825-5225.

Jamie is in Houston up next. What's going on, Jamie? How can we help today? Hi. Okay. I am a woman in my 50s. I was divorced a few years ago after a

30-year marriage, my ex-husband just came home one day and told me he was in love with someone else who was 20 years younger than him, and he was gone. A big part of my healing over the last three years has been getting my finances in order and feeling secure that I can take care of myself and my kids better.

And I've done that with y'all's help, really. Listening to y'all has been a big part of my recovery. Love to hear that. Proud of you. I am now debt-free. My house is paid off. What?

Yeah, dude. For retirement. I have a budget. I follow it. I follow it like crazy. I'm on track to be able to retire in probably 10 years or so. Incredible. The other good thing, I know, and y'all have been a big part of that. You really have. I have three kids. They're all grown and launched and doing great. Okay. I recently started seeing a terrific guy. He is amazing.

He's amazing. He's kind and funny and smart and so sweet to me, so much better to me than any relationship I've ever been in. But he's terrible with money, and he's had some bad luck, and he's deep in debt, and he doesn't want to talk about it with me. He's embarrassed. I know he's ashamed.

And I know he knows I'm in a much better financial position than him. But whenever I try to talk about anything related to money, he just totally shuts down. I've sent him all of the Ramsey Solution stuff. I have loaned him money. I know I probably shouldn't have, but I have. My heart is telling me to rescue this man. I love him and I want to pay off his debts and I have the money to do it. Please don't. Jamie, please don't. I want to reframe your words.

Okay. He's not the best guy you've ever met. And he's not treating you as better than anyone's ever treated you before. That's not true. You know how I know that? He won't be honest with you and he won't be vulnerable with you and he won't tell you what's actually going on inside his chest.

Period. And probably he is running back a different version of the same script your ex just ran on you for 30 years. Well, yeah, you just got you just nailed it. Please don't try to rescue him. You tried to rescue a man for 30 years.

Yeah. I know. And my, it's like, my heart is telling me, I don't know exactly how much the debts are, but I know I can do it. I know. But listen, the more you sit there and try to invent stories and put them inside his head, the more you're going to drive yourself crazy. The only path, I mean, here's the thing, two paths forward, one path, just you do you, you're 50 years old. You have a paid off house. You're doing well. I I'm a podcaster for God's sake. Like you don't have to listen to me.

The other side of this is, I've just seen this play out so many times. You can sit down and say, here's the deal. I'm falling in love with you. And you treat me on these different metrics better than anyone's ever treated me before. I refuse to get into any deeper into a relationship with somebody who won't be honest and open and vulnerable with me. I've done that and I'm through with that life. And so he gets to choose, does he want to be in a relationship with you or not? That's your other option. And when he says, what's that supposed to mean? Say, I'm not.

I can't get into a relationship with somebody that won't be honest with me. You all have talked about sex. You all have talked about the Astros who are back in first place. You all have talked about all those things.

And he won't be honest about money. Which is one of the most important things to you right now is this financial stability that you've succeeded with. And you want to make sure you're partnering with someone who's not going to be an anchor that just drags you to the bottom of an ocean. You've been there. You don't want to be there again. And male shame comes out in really unhealthy ways. Right? Did we lose you? Yeah.

Maybe. Jamie, are you with us? Jamie, you still with us? Maybe just flabbergasted by our advice. That happens time to time. Jamie, you still here? Did you hang up on us? All right. I lost her. No. Come on, Jamie. Come back, Jamie. Is she there? See if you can pick her up. We'll pick her up on the next segment. I really wanted to finish this. This was a really great conversation. But, John, talk about...

seeing past things in relationships when we're in the love phase. A lot of emotions and we go, well, he's a great guy, but there's just this one glaring thing. Right. Can I just pay his debts? Well, anytime you say to yourself, I want to rescue...

creating a hierarchy and hierarchies and I guess a fancier word for hierarchy is scorekeeping. Anytime you create a hierarchy, you're going to have some challenges in a relationship. Now, if my wife of, I don't know, we're about to celebrate 23 years, she will rescue me from a thing, right? And I'll go rescue her from a thing, but not, I can't rescue my wife from

If she chose to not be vulnerable or not be honest or whatever. Okay, she's back. Here we go. Jamie, you're here. I just want to be clear about something. He's not being dishonest with me. Oh, I know. I know. I know. I'm overstating it for the radio. Yeah, I'm overstating. He knows how important my financial security is to me. He knows how hard I have worked and how the trauma. And let me just be let me. You're exactly right, John. You you read this in without me even saying that.

With my 30-year marriage, I was the primary breadwinner. My husband was cheating behind my back while I was supporting him. I hate that. So my current boyfriend knows I have that betrayal trauma. He knows it is deep within me. So he's just like, don't talk to her about money. He's not asking me to pay off his debt. He didn't ask me to loan him. He just is like, don't worry about my financial situation. I'm fine. I'll handle it.

Sure. But he's, but so it's, I just want to be clear about that. No, no, no, no, no. I'm a bad mouth in him. He's, he's living his life too. Like I hear me say that, right. I struggle with being vulnerable all the time. I still do. That's why I talk about it so much because it's, it's one of my biggest demons. Okay. And so it's, it's, and I'm not saying you're a bad person for wanting to go rescue somebody that, you know, that makes you, that makes you compassionate and empathetic. Yeah. But the difference is, Hey, if your money and my money are ever going to become our money, then,

Then we have to talk about it. And I, I just have the, um, the misfortune slash the honor. Both of those are braided together of sitting with people who get out of the long-term relationship that ends really traumatically and immediately get right back on that same rollercoaster. And there's actually a neuroscientific reason why we do that, but that's, that's for another show, but you just get back in the same cart and go down the same rollercoaster again. Yeah. So he may be amazing and wonderful, but,

And God bless you for wanting just to level the field. Hey, look, we're both going to be debt free. I can write you a check. We're going to finish this thing off. What you can't see on it's like this one time, my buddy, his wife had had a baby and I told my wife, hey, I'm going to call a local cleaning company to come in and clean their house for her. And my wife looked at me and was like, are you out of your freaking mind? I was like, why?

And I was like, she's got a newborn. And she goes, would that signal, would that would signal to her? So you just writing a check to a guy who's already a little bit ashamed about his finances and saying, ah, don't worry. I'm your girlfriend. I'll pay for it all. We'll just drive him further underground despite your great intent and love. So all I'm saying is, you know this, I know this, you're smart, George, and this, we all know this. Those deepest secrets that we're trying to hold from each other to protect each other actually becomes the cancer that kills the whole thing.

And so maybe it's that's the line. Hey, for yours and mine to become ours, we got to put it all on the table and talk about that. Thank you so much for the call, sister.

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CHM program start as low as $98 a month. So learn more today and join at chministries.org slash budget at chministries.org slash budget. Welcome back to the Ramsey show. Adam's up next in Knoxville, Tennessee. What's going on, Adam? Hey guys, thanks for taking the call. Sure. How can we help?

Hey, so I've kind of found myself in a predicament. So historically, I've got a job that has paid pretty well. I'm primarily commissioned, but a lot of the jobs that I've been working with have kind of dried up at the time. And so my salary this year isn't quite as high as it has been in previous years. What were you making and what's kind of like a rougher year that you're looking at?

So, which, I mean, my rough year is still not that bad. The rough year, it's going to be about 75, 80. Last year, it was 120. Okay. And so, it's gone down a little bit, which, again, you know, 80 is still comfortable. We're still, you know, it's not anything bad. Not to mention, you know, I completely babysit two last year. Awesome. All the trucks, all the vehicles, and then...

Trying to, you know, I've got everything. I've got about three months saved up. So still kind of lower on babysat three. But, you know, trying to look ahead. Yeah, exactly. So trying to look ahead and save money for, I've got two kids. Trying to save for their college and our retirement. So with paying off the debts, I haven't really saved much for retirement yet.

So, you know, obviously in the statistics of it, I'm a little bit behind on that. But my wife is a stay-at-home, and I'd like to keep it that way. But something has come up, and I'm looking at changing job opportunities because I'm really unhappy with my current position. So the situation with this new job is it's an ownership track, but the first two years are –

I guess you can call it your franchise fees, sweat equity, if you will. What kind of job is this? It's a retail. I'd be taking up a retail position. It's a local place here. But for the first two years, it'd be about $50,000. And my wife is really nervous about me taking this position. Long term, the average salary is about $1,000.

Is that what they're just telling you, or is that a reality? Because if I was trying to sell you on getting in my franchise, I'd be telling you the same thing. No, it's actually, I've verified it with a quickie. That's on the low end. So this seems like a no, no, no-brainer. Is she worried about the actual drop in income for two years, or is she worried about...

Well, it's part of it, but also part of her responsibility. Like I said, she's a stay-at-home mom. But with that, I'm going to be working 60 to 65 hours a week, six days a week, and she doesn't.

necessarily want me to do that and the money's not necessarily worth it to her so for me though looking at at you know my kids college and our retirement you know i think it makes it worth it i don't hesitate at the work um side of it i don't mind the 60 to 65 hours a week but she's in the home with the kids and she doesn't want to do that

Yeah, she sees the next two years as I'm a single mom and I'm not going to see my husband and our lifestyle is going to take a big cut. Things are going to be stressful financially on top of that. I mean, that's reasonable on her side. I'd be feeling the same thing if I were her. But also the other side of it is, I mean, both me and my wife have had these same things just on either side. Like, hey, I'm going back to school.

And so I'm going to keep my full-time job, but I'm also going to be in grad school full-time, which means we're going to high-five each other during the week. And then hopefully I can see you on a Sunday because I'm writing papers all day Saturday. Like sometimes you do that in a marriage. Is there a – I don't know, man. Like I often wonder if there's a deeper conversation here, which is I'm going to make something up, okay? So don't take this to heart. But –

Does she not like who you become when you're working six days a week a whole year? Do you not help out when you do have a few hours around the house? So is she looking at a total lifestyle change or is she – I hate to cast this on your wife, man, but is she kind of selfish and like, I don't even want to give up two years for all of the peace and security this is going to give us down the road?

Yeah, essentially. And she started saying more things that are concerning to me, you know, because it's really important for me to look ahead and save, you know, like I said, for my kids and, you know, for our retirement. And she's, you know, she's not interested in saving for the future.

and doesn't want to favor their college or anything because she says she took out student loans so they can too, which she didn't finish college. And for me, it's really important to, if I can, if I'm able to, to be able to provide that for my kids. I don't necessarily know how to change that. So give me an example of another situation away from kids and away from this job.

Where y'all are not on the same page. It's our, we're not on the same page. Yep. Just give me a random one. It's been, that's honestly the only time we ever really. Everything else is just, it's just coming along. Family. Yeah. We've seen, you know, differently on family.

But as far as the values, she feels sometimes that if she's not the priority, that if something else is the priority, so in that sense, work, or if she's not getting dependent or whatnot. Okay, so that's what I was getting at earlier, is it may be that she's a selfish person, and no one's going to know this but you, and very short-sighted. I don't want you going to work and

to build into this company that will eight or nine exits return, right? I don't want you doing that for two years because I can't imagine two years of having to parent six days a week by myself. Maybe that's the case. And I like getting my nails and hair done and I refuse to go two years without getting that done so that the rest of our family's future can be financially secure. Maybe that's the case. Or like I was saying, maybe she already feels like when you're busy,

Or maybe she feels like you're already, she's already a mistress to your job. When you get to working a lot, you're not pleasant to be around. Or you come home and just plop on the couch and start researching golf clubs. I don't know. I'm just making stuff up. But that's the question I would want to get to.

Yeah. And is there a reality to the situation where you guys can't afford to live on 50 grand or she has to go back to work for two years? And this is just a two year. Everybody's making everyone's making concessions for two years so that we can get to this place where I own this company. I'm making 400 grand a year and we have an entirely different family tree because of that. Yeah.

And that's what I've tried to communicate to her, which is I'm more pleasant to be around whenever I feel fulfilled in my job, which I haven't been recently. But I still do most of the dishes, most of the laundry whenever I come back. But I've kind of gotten it pretty bad to where I've conditioned her to let her sleep in the mornings. I get my kid ready for it.

Ready for the morning. You know, I'm back well before five. Even using the language, I condition her and let her makes her sound a lot more like my Australian shepherd than your wife. Right. Yeah. And so maybe even just back. I honestly, I think you'll need to go sit with a marriage counselor because I think the issues here are deeper than should I take this job or that job?

You guys aren't aligned on a lot of things, and money and family and priorities, there's a lot there. You said, well, we're pretty much on the same page except for these three major areas. And you told me that she doesn't even – she's fine going into debt for the whole family, and you just told me you crawled out of Baby Step 2. Yeah. So there's already some differing –

Yeah.

Not being aligned on family and kids and money. Those are three real big issues, which I would say down the, like means we're not aligned on the big rocks. Right. Um,

You've got to be on the same page on those. And I would do your homework on this franchise. I'm not saying it's too good to be true, but I am wondering, Adam seems like a sharp young guy, but why is there not a line of people going, I can make $400,000 in two years, sign me up. So I would just ask a lot of questions before I went, no, no, this guy told me I'll make $400,000 in two years no matter what. That part worries me as well. George, yeah, it's tough when... We don't know. This is The Ramsey Show. Yeah.

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All right, today's question comes from Kimberly in Florida. Kimberly writes, I really got screwed. I gave my IRA funds to a precious metals company. Oh, Lord.

to invest, and after they finished with me, I had less than half of what I gave them. I kept asking what their fees were, and they told me about the fees for the depository and conservator, but never mentioned their fee, which was extra. They also sold me coins instead of bullion. I am 77 and have to take out RMDs. I would be getting only half of what I would have had had I left the funds in my IRAs.

Do I have any recourse against them to get my money back? Oh, boy. Dude, the scams, George, are getting worse and worse and worse and worse, particularly in this demographic. 100%. And I don't even know. This might be a legitimate company that she did business with and not like a scammer across the world. And, yeah, she just lost money because she didn't understand the fine print. She didn't understand that this money was being invested. Well, and let's be honest, Kimberly...

I love you, hon. But I want to assume this company was, it's never a good company, never a good business deal, but they weren't trying to scam you. But when you keep asking what their fees are, and at the same time, give them every single thing they're asking for, then you are communicating with your actions. I don't really care what the fees are. Here's everything.

And so had you gone back to do this again, you would have said, hey, I'm not giving you one penny until I have a piece of paper here that says exactly what your fees are. What's the fee schedule? What do you get fees for? What's the past ROIs? What's the all that kind of stuff? But you gave them all your money and then asked questions and it was too late.

Yeah. And a lot of these scams, they generally involve inflated prices for coins and bullion. They switch these promise metals for lower value metals. And there's all kinds of misleading claims about tax advantages and how it's so great to do this. And it's super wise to do with your money. By the way, the dollar is all going away. It's all coming down. You better hold on to gold coins. Fear mongering. Yeah. So there's a lot of issues here and they're predatory toward elderly folks.

uh, like our friend Kimberly here. So you're in retirement. They got a bunch of money. That's a great target demo for scammers when you, they know you're not going to read the fine print. They know you're not going to come after them. So I don't know how much recourse you have. You can talk to an attorney. I don't know the company. We don't have a lot of info here. I don't, I also don't think it's worth your time to spend the next two years fighting this. Cause I don't think you're going to get your money back, especially if it was a

legitimate company and they went no no no here's what happened she invested the money she knew there was risk here she signed her name saying that we could invest this knowing she could lose it all so I'm sorry you went through this this might be the biggest stupid tax you've ever paid and I hope you stay away from any of these companies ever again and for anyone out there thinking about getting into precious metals because of fear of the headlines in the economy they are marketing this stuff so hard right now because this is their Super Bowl and

When the economy looks spooky, you see the billboards to trade in and buy some gold because it's somehow going to save you in an apocalypse. And no time in history has that ever worked out. So stay away. I don't have any gold. I don't think John has any gold. Not even on my faucets. Not even jewelry. No. No, you've got to. I think it's a plastic bracelet he's wearing. Exactly. There we go. All right. Mary is in Los Angeles up next on the line. What's going on, Mary?

Hi, thank you for taking my call. I'm very happy to be able to speak to you. You too. Thank you. I am a 56-year-old woman, single, no kids, live alone, and I am approximately about $75,000 in debt today.

And my question is, I have an opportunity to early withdraw a portion of my pension plan. I have a pension, an early portion of my pension plan up to about $22,000. Okay.

And I'm considering on doing that because I want to – I have some chunky monthly payments that are slowing down the snowball method I'm trying to use through the baby steps, which I'm trying to apply in my life. And if I do that, it'll allow me to –

expedite, take these chunkier payments and put it towards my much bigger debt. I'm just wondering if that's not a good idea. I'm very leery of going down the road of my pension plan, even though there's two parts to my pension plan, but this is one of them. And I'm just wondering if that's just not a good idea. Do I leave it alone? Yeah.

And the tax benefits, the disadvantage to this is obviously I would have to pay taxes on it. Is there an early withdrawal penalty? Are you saying you can take this portion out without any penalty, but you'll still pay taxes? Yes, that is correct. It's a hardship plan that they are offering. Is this a qualified hardship?

Yeah, if it's a qualified hardship for 10%, they basically waive the 10% federal early withdrawal, the federal taxes, that 10% penalty you get. That gets waived, but I still have to pay all the other taxes, of course, you know. Yeah. All the other federal taxes, which I'm being told you can pay it over three years.

Okay. Well, I'll tell you, I don't love this plan, number one, because it really doesn't change Mary's behavior, which is what got us here. It feels like a shortcut, and we go, wow, we did something. Now we feel a little more comfortable. So I don't know how intense you have been about paying off debt. You said you're in your 50s? Yeah, I'm 56. 56. And you're 75 in debt. What kind of debt is that? I don't know.

It's debt that's basically broken up between, you know, I have a car loan, a HELOC home equity line of credit, you know, and a consolidation loan. I have some medical bills.

And I did, back in 2016, I did take out a 401k loan, which was the biggest mistake of my life. And that's sort of stuck into a weekly withdrawal from my paycheck every week. And it's not a huge amount. And that's where I went wrong. And they won't let me change that. You're still paying this off nine years later? Yes. Yes. And are you able to... I want to try to get that faster. So how much is this 401k loan balance?

Right now it's at about, it's between $24,000 and $25,000. Even after nine years? Yes. See, this feels like another shortcut scheme from Mary to go, well, I'll just rob my retirement, which is going to unplug all of the growth, give you less money in retirement. So that's my fear is that you end up retiring broke and never change the behavior that got us here and continue to stay in debt for the next nine years. Right.

Right. I have been committed to, I'm going through trying to save, I'm trying to save my small emergency fund right now. I've done my budget. I've looked at everything. I've been diligently working on this, but... How much do you have saved up so far?

I'm at about $600 of my emergency fund, my small emergency fund, my first steps of my emergency fund. Yeah, $1,000 is your starter. Yeah, the $1,000. Yeah. Okay. How much do you make? I'm almost there. My take-home after taxes is about $79,000. Before taxes, it's $112,000. Okay. Okay.

So you have a great income. I'm confused where all the money's going. Even with minimum debt payments, are your expenses just out of control? I'm a little house poor. What's your mortgage payment? I've made some bad decisions.

Well, I don't feel my mortgage payment is out of control. I think within my means, it's $23.78, and I roll in my escrow, my taxes, and it's rolled into that. Yeah, my insurance and my taxes are rolled into that. I think we need to make way in this budget and do better than saving $600 and being still in this debt. I would not.

cash out this portion of the pension to knock out some of these debts. It's going to make you feel like you did something, but it's a drop in the bucket as far as the total debt and the behavior change needed to get out of this. I might consider selling the car to clear some of the debt and downsizing, but I personally would not cash out that pension.

If you're tired of living paycheck to paycheck, wondering where your money's going, your first step is getting on a budget. Our team is hosting free budgeting trainings this month that you can jump on. You'll learn step-by-step how to make and stick to a budget using EveryDollar. Plus, you can get your biggest budgeting questions answered in a live Q&A. So spots are limited. Get on it. Sign up for free at EveryDollar.com slash webinar. Heather is in Jacksonville, Florida, coming up. What's going on, Heather? Hey. Hey.

How can John and I help? Okay, so my question is, I am a single mother of three little boys. I rent currently. I do not own my home. I've done really good to not accumulate debt over my young life. I just turned 30 this year.

My car is paid for. The only things that I have as far as debt is concerned is just over $3,000 left of my student loan. And my question is, how do I get ahead? It seems like in this economy, I am just breaking even every paycheck.

And I don't really see owning a home as being in my near future. And it's a huge goal of mine. It's something I really want to give to my children and set that example for them. So just wondering how to get ahead. I love it. Well, can I just tell you, you're doing a great job so far. Yeah. Thank you. George is the goat when it comes to the money stuff. But can I just say the example you're setting for those boys is it's family tree changing. Yeah.

Regardless of whatever they inherit or whatever you pass down to them, they're watching a warrior of a mom provide for them, work hard, be an incredible mom. Just be there, man. Yeah, you're amazing. Thank you. I really appreciate that. No, like for real. Don't blow over that. You're a good mom. Okay? Yes, sir. I don't care what the divorce paper said. I don't care what that guy told you. You're a good mom. Okay? Okay.

Yes, sir. I appreciate that. Don't say sir. George is older than me. And neither of us are as old as Kelly. All right, go ahead. Under the bus she went. Okay, so how much do you make right now? My take home monthly is $2,728. Okay, I love how that tells me you know your number. Well, that tells me how tight things are, right? Exactly. Not 29. We don't have that extra dollar kids. How old are the kids?

I have a nine-year-old, a five-year-old, and a two-year-old. They're all boys. Partee. Okay, what does childcare look like while you're at work?

Yes. So my oldest son is able to spend most weekdays at my mom's. She does work from home, and he's fairly self-sufficient, so it doesn't require too much. The two younger boys are in daycare. So that is running me about $800 a month split between their father and I. Okay. That's my next question. Is there any alimony, child support coming in on top of the $2,700? No.

No. So we do have 50-50 of the two youngest. My oldest son is mine only and there is no financial help. Okay. So the only help is you're splitting the daycare cost? Yes, sir. And your portion is $800? Yes, sir. Okay. And how much is your rent? My rent is $1,000. Okay.

Okay. Which I know is crazy in this market. That's great. Well, you're making $2,700. So the next question is, I feel like you are on top of your expenses. You don't sound like you're spending frivolously here.

Correct. So the next question is, how do we get the income up to create enough margin to get out of debt faster, knock out this $3,000, get you an emergency fund of probably six months because you're a single mom of three? Let's get to that number. And boys, lots of broken everythings. Yes. And the boys and they'll be eating like just, I don't know, Costco size steak packs pretty soon.

So what are you doing for work? So I am a service coordinator for a family-owned furniture retailer. Okay. So if you looked at your skill set, what jobs in your area could pay you more for using those same skills?

So I do feel like most of my professional career, I've just been kind of chasing, which I think this is kind of my generation in general. We're just chasing that next dollar raise. Who's going to pay us a dollar more? I want you to think bigger. Yes. You mean additionally to what I'm doing now or a change? A total change. Instead of going, who can pay me a dollar more? It's how do I make $80,000 a year with my skill set?

Right. I would say that my skill set is mostly in dealing with people. I've been in service and coordination roles forever. I was a bank teller and an audit coordinator and a trust funding coordinator. I did not go to college, so I do not have a degree that's going to help me as far as my resume is concerned.

But I am good with people. I'm a good listener. I try to take care of people, and I think that's served me well throughout my professional career so far. Absolutely. And there's a lot of jobs out there, even without a degree, that I think could pay you more and get you –

making progress a lot faster. And so I'm going to gift you our friend Ken Coleman's book, Find the Work You're Wired to Do. It comes with a get clear career assessment. I want you to take that and start to dream a little bit. I feel like you have been in survival mode for probably a long time and you haven't really got to focus on Heather and go, what does Heather want to be doing? What could Heather be doing that could provide? What if you had a $4,000 take home pay? I mean, that would change your life.

Absolutely.

Right. Now, as far as credit is concerned, that is another major area of concern for me. I do have a very low credit score, not because I've done anything wrong, but just because I haven't used it. My payment history is 100 percent. My credit age is 11 years and five months, and I have three closed accounts and one open account. The only reason I've kept the student loan account open is just so I have some credit. Heather, do you know what my credit score is?

What? Zero. None. You know what George's is? None.

Okay. Like you're good. You're good. It's not because we're really smart. Once we paid off debt, we just stopped going back into it. And so that's what's going to happen for you once you pay off these student loans. Your credit score, it might dip down a little because credit score system is so stupid that if you pay off your debt and be responsible, they ding you for it. But then over time, once you close all of your credit accounts, you have no credit cards open whatsoever, after about six to 12 months, your credit score will become indeterminable.

And so not having a score is not a bad thing. Having a low score can hurt you. So can I throw just some options to keep your eyes open around your local area? Yes. I want you to look at or consider things like, is there any local community colleges or universities where you could get – because what you have is the equivalent of an entry-level salary, right? Yeah.

Correct. Could I get a job at a place working with people as a receptionist, as a personal assistant, as a fill in the blank, as a residence life coordinator, right? Where I'm just I'm answering phones, I'm taking care of people, but also allows me to get free tuition. Or can I get a job at a local school district that also allows my kids to go into child care here?

Yeah, that's definitely something I could look into. Or at an apartment complex where we could all live for free and it's a thousand more dollars. Like I'll run the front desk of this apartment complex and yada yada and then they take care of your housing too. So for single moms in your situation where it's just, I mean, like you said, like at the beginning of the call, every dollar matters.

What are these places? And they don't exist for everybody. I know that. And it's not a panacea, but where are those places where I can double and triple dip? I'll work here. And also I get to get a free credential over time or I'll work here and my kids get to go to school here. Also, sometimes you take a reduced salary for that privilege, but over time, man, if you could end up working at a university for four years, just doing entry level work, but you end with a bachelor's degree that you don't pay for how amazing, right? Yeah.

Yeah, that's not something I've thought of. And then you stay there and then your kids have a discount when they go to school. So it's just asking some of these questions. Let's think bigger than if you're into service and that's what you like to do. Where are some places where I can be of service and they've got these extraneous benefits that could support me as well?

And reach out to your community, your friends, your family, and see what jobs are out there, where they're working, are they hiring, and start digging around these job sites, and you'll see your skills listed there. And yes, some of them might say degree required, but you might apply and they go, oh my gosh, Heather's amazing. She's got the experience. She has the skills.

Forget the degree. Come on board. We need a great coordinator. I worked at one university. My highest paid person on my team, and I had a humongous team, did not have a degree. She was a gangster, and she was my highest paid team member that year. So it's possible for sure because I've lived it. Keep fighting, Heather. These days, the Internet is chock full of so-called investing advice from random goobs with zero qualifications. Listen.

Listen, folks, you deserve guidance from someone who knows what the flip they're talking about. That's why I recommend the SmartVestor program. SmartVestors can help you find a professional financial advisor who can teach you to make your own best decisions with your own money. Get connected at RamseySolutions.com slash SmartVestor.

Again, RamseySolutions.com slash SmartVestor. Ramsey Solutions is a paid, non-client promoter of participating pros. Learn more at RamseySolutions.com slash SmartVestor.

From the Ramsey Network, this is The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships. I'm George Campbell, joined by the host of The Dr. John Deloney Show, Dr. John Deloney. We're taking your calls at 888-825-5225. You call us, we'll do our best to help you take the right next step for your life and your money. Samantha's up in Dayton, Ohio. What's going on, Samantha?

So I have a 20-year-old son that I want to take on vacation, and he told me because he has debt that you guys would tell him no. Oh. What? Who's footing the bill for the vacation?

So I am a baby millionaire, and I am footing the whole bill because of between his schooling, my schooling, and my daughter's schooling, you know, and COVID, we weren't able to go on vacation. So I figure this is our last vacation before they all start their lives and move out and fly the nest. Samantha, how long have you been his mom? 20 years. You know by now when he's fibbing to you.

He is a very dead serious person when he talks. Okay. Well, he is confused because we've never once said just because you owe money, you cannot go on a fully funded vacation with your millionaire mother. Well, he just feels that. So he's supposed to close on a house next week. I don't plan on going on vacation until September of 26. Why? Why? You're a millionaire.

Just because of their schedules with a little bit of schooling. Like, I'll get done with my doctorate. Hold on. And they'll get done with... I'm confused, Samantha. You told me that he won't go on vacation because he's in debt and we said not to, but he's buying a home while he's in debt?

So that is his home. That is the only debt he has. Hey, you tell him to leave us out of this. He's trying to blame us because he doesn't want to go on vacation with his mama. Ding, ding, ding. Is that the case? He says he does. No, he says he does. I've asked him that question. If he's listening to the show for 10 seconds, he knows when we say don't go on vacation while you're in debt, we mean baby step two, consumer debt.

So you're telling me he's... He does, but he still feels that any debt is bad debt. So he's not going to go on vacation for 15 years if he has a 15-year mortgage? Well, he has $65K he's putting down on a $160K house. Okay, listen, I have to tell you... And he's planning to pay it off in six years. I have to tell you this. I've worked with 20-year-olds my entire career. This is his sideways way of telling you, I don't want to go on a vacation with you. Period. Period.

He's going to have a $100,000 mortgage. Even Dave Ramsey would not tell him to not go on vacation. And by the way, Dave is on vacation right now. That's why me and George are here. Even if this vacation cost him money, we'd say, hey, have a good time. Budget for it. We wouldn't tell him to not pay. Just budget for it. Put $63,000 down on the house and go have some fun with your mom.

That is what I'll tell him, but he's pretty serious that it bothers him. It's allowed to bother him. He just can't blame anybody else but the dude in the mirror. Yeah, don't throw John and I under the bus. Don't sully our good names. We don't have great names, George. It's fine. But yeah, he's got to own this. Say, I'm so paranoid about my $100,000 mortgage that I don't feel like I could go. Does he have a girlfriend? Does he have a girlfriend? No. Okay, so it's just him.

It's just him. Okay. Is he a fuddy-duddy? Does he enjoy anything in his life? Because I don't know many 20-year-olds that have 65K who are like, I'd like to be a homeowner. He's a different child. He splits cars on the side and works a full-time job. Okay. He's just been trying to rake in money to make sure that he can be set for life. Here's what I want you to tell him, Samantha. I want you to tell him that you talked to the Dave Ramsey guys and they approved his expenditures or his time away. Okay.

But then I want you to look at him and say, and I don't care what Dave Ramsey says because I'm your mother. It would mean a big deal. It would be a great deal to me if you would go on this trip with me. I surely will. Will you say that to him? Yes. Where's the vacation to? We want to take a cruise out of Miami for six days. We do or you do? We've gone on cruises every other year. So they picked the destination of going down out of Miami to the Caribbean. Both my kids. Including your son? Yeah.

Yes. Hold on. He picked the destination and he's gone every other year, but all of a sudden he's like, no, no, no, no, Mom, I can't go. It's just, yeah, he keeps saying, I'm about to close on this house any day, and that's a lot of debt. Is he stressed out about this? He has a job that has...

I think he's a little stressed just because it's the unknown, but he has PTO that'll still pay him while he's on vacation. I told him he'd still be fine. He could still make his expenses, but he's like, I could just get a second job during those six days and at a construction company and help pull my debt down more. I'm weirded out that he's that concerned about this debt. I took a call this week about a guy who was $100,000 in debt from day trading and

And so for him to be concerned about a mortgage that's $100,000, there's guys who have car payments bigger than his mortgage who will call into the show this week. So I just think there's something behind this. I think that's what we need to get to the root of because I don't think it has anything to do with money unless he's truly stepping into home ownership as a young guy. And he's scared. He's going, I don't know what this is going to cost me. And I feel like stepping away from this is a bad idea. And I got new expenses in my life. But it's not the actual expense that's bothering him of this vacation. Yeah.

I don't think it's that. I think it's just the unknown since you don't know what's going to happen when you move to a new house. But he's got the money. It sounds like he's got no debt and a fully funded emergency fund. He's investing for his future. He sounds like he's got the baby steps down pat. He does. And he's 20. That puts him ahead of 95% of all Americans. He's further ahead than I was at 20. Me too, by 100 miles. Maybe you tell him this, that, hey, this may be a great opportunity for you to take him to breakfast and say, hey...

I've taught you how to live financially and you've picked up those messages for me. But I also want to talk to you about a life well lived. And an important part of a life well lived is knowing when to exhale and put down the pen or put down the hammer and just go see nature, get on a boat, go let somebody else cook your meals for a few days, go meet some new friends. Does he like to read books? No. No.

No. He's a gearhead. That's all he does is play with cars all day long. Okay. So he's got his hobby and he's happy with it. Well, I think you have a conversation with him and say, listen, this is one of these experiences I want to have as you step into adulthood. We know there's not many vacations left. I got all the expenses covered. If you have any fears about home ownership, I'm happy to talk about those with you. I'm happy to help. But I would really mean a lot to me as your mom if this was our last one big vacation.

As you step into homeownership, let's celebrate it. And then as a good millionaire mom, next year you have to give them the same speech. Just one more vacation. And then the year after that, you're going to be like, all right, listen, listen, one more vacate. Like you've got to keep doing this indefinitely. I promise I can do that. Who's the other child involved? You have another son or daughter? I have a daughter. She's 18. She's in a master's program. She's for sure going, isn't she?

Oh, yeah. She was like, sign me up. Exactly. Worst case, mother-daughter trip. Best case, maybe she can convince him. Sisters have a way of getting under brother's skin. Maybe she's the ticket. Push his buttons a little bit. Get him riled up. So here's a plot twist no one warns you about. You budget for the big trip, and you thought of everything. But then, boom, you're at the airport trying to buy a phone charger that costs more than the check bag fee.

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Investing may seem complicated or confusing, but it doesn't have to be that way. Whether you're a complete beginner or you're looking for next level strategies, we've got the Ramsey Investing Hub for you with tools and information that can help you invest with confidence and clarity. So go to ramseysolutions.com slash investing to check it out or click the link in the description if you're listening on YouTube or podcast. Katie is up next in Columbus, Ohio. What's going on, Katie?

Hi there. Hi, George and John. My question is, should me and my husband continue our debt snowball if he may be losing his, be out of work in 90 days? Oh, wow. How imminent is this? Well, he was just told today that he either needs to find another position within the organization or he needs to, or he'll be let go in 90 days from his current position. Wow. What's the cause of this?

They are canceling out that position. So, I mean, I guess the first thing I would do if I was him would be to get another job in that organization so he can keep a paycheck coming while he figures out what's next, right? Yes, and that's what he's planning to do. Great, great, great, great. Are they wanting to keep him on board and put him in another role, or is the writing on the wall, hey, we don't want you here?

No, usually for somebody in his position, they would have just walked into the door. But because of his relationship with the administration, they actually gave him 90 days and they want him to stay within the hospital. Okay. What's he making right now? About $105,000. Okay. And are you working outside the home? I am.

What do you make? Yes. So including my VA benefits, I make $173,000. $173,000? Yes. Wow. Way to go. Did y'all crush any? I make a quarter million dollars. Yeah. How much debt do you have? We had a plan. Our debt without the house is $200,000, and then with the house is about $400,000. Okay. What kind of debt's the $200,000?

This includes student loans, some loans that we took out, the vehicle, and then just some other little things. We paid off a good chunk. We don't have any credit cards anymore or anything like that. What's the current rate? If your husband kept his job, how soon would you guys be free of that $200,000 in consumer debt?

If he kept his job in the next four years, including the house, the rate that we're going. Okay. Because making a quarter million, if this has been the case, I feel like you guys could knock out more than $50K a year, which is the current track you're on. Absolutely. And we've been very diligent about...

Just living within our means, not eating out. We used to have a $1,600 a month food bill. We have five boys. We've gotten that down to $1,100. Good. And we've just been really, really tight with our budget. How much money do you guys have in savings right now? We have about five. In our emergency fund, we have about $5,000.

We had to use some recently for an emergency. Okay. So you've been doing the baby steps out of order. Baby step one, $1,000. Anything beyond that starts going toward the debt. You have more than that saved up. So we would tell most people in this case that, hey, if you're in storm mode or stork mode, if you have a baby on the way, those are the two times to pause the debt snowball. And so if he knows for sure he won't have a job, then I would pause that debt snowball, just make minimum payments on the debts, and just stack up cash immediately.

Okay. Okay. You're saying even without his income?

Correct. Okay, so if he lost his income today, you're making your $173,000. You'd still have $3,000 left over. So you're saying, really, we're okay. Is your job stable? I'm a healthcare provider, so...

I can easily find another position much quicker than he did. Okay. Yeah, if you're in a good position financially where you can continue that snowball, absolutely. But if it was a situation where you're not going to be able to cover your bills, well, that's different. And so if you can cover all of your expenses plus some, plus cover the minimums, plus throw some of the debt, I would continue. And all that will do is just slow down your debt snowball until he has gainful employment again.

Okay. So I'm good with that plan. I would prefer you guys keep, you know, push play on the debt snowball and not pause it because I want to see you guys out of debt real soon. In fact, I want to see it done in two years. If he can keep this income up, I think two years is the goal at most. I agree, and God has blessed us tremendously. And I also can bonus. And so, you know, if I bonus, then we just plan to put all that to the

to the debt as well. I love it. Yeah. And if I would push, I would do that regardless of if he keeps the job or not, if he gets another one, I would get that bonus, work as much overtime as you can and clean up this mess because you guys are too successful to be hanging on to this debt. So I'm rooting for you and I wish him the best on the job search. Greg is up next down the road from us in Nashville, Tennessee. What's going on, Greg? Hey, how's it going? I listen to all the videos all the time. So thanks for taking my call. Oh, awesome. How can we help today? Yeah.

Well, basically, I just want you all to help me settle an internal debate about what to do with my 401k going forward. Just a quick understanding, I'm a 29-year-old engineer. I work for a firm that's an ESOP, so 100% employee-owned. Basically, you're buying company stock with the retirement option.

And so they put in, if you put in 5%, they'll match up to 4%. So I put in 9, so I'm getting an aggregate total of 13% towards 401k. And I do a Roth 401k option, so it's after taxes.

Great. So we got our ESOP statements just the other week, and I'm at $100,000 saved up for retirement. Way to go. Yeah, I'm very excited about it. But then I kind of had this little bit of a debate going on. One part of me is like, oh, it's going great. Let's just keep focused on this, maybe even up the percentage of what I'm putting into this 401k. Okay.

But then there's the other half of me that's a little bit more conservative side of me that's like, well, I'm kind of putting all my eggs in one basket of I'm only, you know, I'm only buying company stock. And my firm has been having a record year for the past five years, and I've only been there for six.

So, I mean, it's been going great, but it's not like the normal. So there's a part of me that's like, okay, reduce my contributions down to the 5% to get their match. And then the other four, or I'll just round it up to five, that I normally do, put that into a Roth IRA. Yeah, that's wise. Just to diversify. So is that the route y'all think I should go? Or just kind of put it all in black? Bro, my mom worked at a company called Enron.

They put it all on black. And they gave everybody company stock to keep buying company stock so that they could turn around and give everybody more company stock. And everybody went broke overnight when that company dissolved. So I'm with you. I have a built-in bias against that. Are you getting these stocks at 80% of cost or something? Is there a discount here?

Well, that's something I'll have to kind of – I haven't dove too deep into since I'm so far out. Like is this an employee stock purchase plan or is the only option in your Roth 401k to buy their company shares or are there more options? No, there are more options and honestly that's something I could talk to kind of like my accounting about. Yeah, I wouldn't buy any of the stock then.

Okay. They're not for you would just get it. Yeah. Yeah. I would just choose some great mutual funds inside of that 401k, uh, invest up to the match. If they don't have great options, invest up to the match. And then again, move on to that Roth IRA and max that out. If you can, if you do that without hitting your 15%. So what's your total income?

At least from the firm, around $110 a year. $110? That's the side money, yeah. Awesome. So at 15%, you'd be investing $16,500 a year. And so you'd invest a portion of that into your company account and then anything left over, put into that Roth IRA. And if you ran out of options there, then you can move back to that Roth 401k at work and keep dumping some money into there.

Gotcha. Dude, you're crushing. I'm so proud of you. Congrats, homie. A young dude with a good head on his shoulders, an engineer, which we know is the number one career of millionaires in our millionaire study, over 10,000 of them. So, Greg, you're on the path, my man. Keep it up. This is The Ramsey Show.

Hey, what's up? Dr. John Deloney here. The new dates have dropped for the money and marriage getaway over Valentine's Day weekend in 2026. This is your chance to hit pause on everything in your life and reconnect with your spouse over a long weekend in Nashville, Tennessee. Me and my friend Rachel Cruz will be digging into topics like sex, money, communication, and more.

This weekend is happening on February 12th through the 14th, and early bird prices start at $749 per couple, but the prices will be going up soon. Get your tickets today at ramseysolutions.com slash events.

We know you guys have been trying to help people in your life get started with Ramsey and the Ramsey plan. So we built something for you. It's the Ramsey 101 playlist to help you help them. It's a free, easy to share playlist that covers all the basics for someone who's just getting started with Ramsey. We've got clips on what are the baby steps, how to pay off debt with the debt snowball, how to build an emergency fund, and so much more. So here's how to share it.

Just click the link at the top of the show notes to open the Ramsey 101 playlist on YouTube. Then you can hit the share button and text it, DM it, send it in a group chat and say, hey, I enjoyed this thought it might help. And if you're listening on radio, we've got the playlist featured at the top of our YouTube channel. It's one share and one step that could help one person in your life. Anna is up next in Las Vegas. What's going on, Anna? How can we help?

Hi, thanks for taking my call. Okay, I'll cut to the chase. I'll have to tell you a brief story just so that you understand. I like a story. Yeah, a good story, too. I have a son who is a narcissist, like a horrible father, horrible son, horrible husband, everything. Just think of the worst. So I have a trust, and my son's in the trust with my other two children and my two grandchildren.

My daughter-in-law is not in the trust. The financial advisor or attorney said, you know, don't put her in case of divorce or whatever. Okay. So she's not in it. So I always felt like she was a stepchild. I decided to pretty much disown my son because of being like this horrible narcissist. So I have a brokerage account that my other two children knew all about.

And they said, don't give it to us. We don't need the money. They're very successful. You know, they both make over $100,000 each, you know, just, you know, so they're like half a million dollars a year. And I said,

"Well, won't you feel bad?" And they said, "No, just leave it to Scott. He can't hold down a job." All right, so his name was on the brokerage account. What I want to do, and here's my question to you, is I want to take him off of it because he does not deserve it. He doesn't know about it, so that's good.

And what I want to do is put her on it because they are now getting divorced because I forced her to. I said, I'll file a complaint against you. You forced your son's wife to divorce your son?

Yes. Well, he's a narcissist, and he's causing the children to grow up to be ones. You know what I'm saying? You put children like that, they're six and seven, in a toxic, horrible environment. I don't know that a six-year-old can be a narcissist. I would take off the clinical diagnostics. They can grow up to be, though, if they're in an environment like that for so long. Yeah.

And I talked to this seven-year-old, and he goes, he just fights with my mommy and fights with my mommy, and he's just so mean. I gave him $30,000 one year because he kept losing his job, and then I gave him another $15,000. But I said, now that is to help the kids and put her in dance school and in karate classes, because I think that's important for children. She didn't see any of that money. I just found this out when I went to Texas.

He kept all the money. He didn't give it to anyone. So how can we help you, love? That's a hard one. So that's my question. Okay, I want to take her and put her on the brokerage account. The ex-wife? Yes.

Yes. If you do this, if you have to take care of the kids. Here's my situation. Here's the situation. She will take care of those children. She's a wonderful mother. I know. And listen to me. Listen to me.

Okay. He's a narcissist and he won't pay child care. I know. Listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen. Okay. Okay. You not wanting to give him money because he's not, let's don't call him a narcissist ever again. That's using clinical diagnostics. He, let's just call him a bad person. Okay. Okay. Or a guy that diagnosed, but that's okay. That's fine. Okay. If he was diagnosed, I'll let you use it. You know that everyone on the internet uses. Okay. If that's his diagnostic, you can say that, but let's just, let's just call a spade a spade.

He is not providing for his kids. He's not taking care of his wife. He's not a person of character. No. So you are well within your right to spend your money however you want to spend it. I know, but I want to do it financially correct. I know. I mean, I want to be a smart person. Okay, if you give her this money and she turns around and leaves him,

He will get a huge chunk of it during the divorce settlement. Don't do that. Okay, so I have to wait until they're divorced. No, no. Just do this. Okay. Just say, I want to designate money, and every year I want to pay for this with the kids. And if in your trust... Well, what do I do about this brokerage of time? I've got to leave it to someone. Are you dying? Well, I'm old. Okay, well then put it in your will. You don't have to liquidate it all right now.

Well, I don't have a will. I have a trust. Okay, then put it in the trust. I don't want it in the trust because I can't change a trust. I promised my husband I wouldn't. Have you talked to your estate planning attorney about all this? Yeah. Oh, about my brokerage account? How much is in this account? What are we talking about? Oh, just $200,000. I mean, it's no big deal. Okay, then when she moves into a house, just...

She probably won't even get in the house. She'll probably have to go in an apartment. I mean, he's going to – I'm telling you, he's going to quit his job. He's going to say he doesn't have any money. I know him. Okay, but if you put money into an account and give it to her, he will get it. You know that. Even after the divorce? Well, you've got to talk to an attorney about that. Okay, okay. My guess is he's going to file some sort of alimony, some sort of something.

and he'll get his hands on it in some way. That's why I would love to see... He's going to ask for alimony from her. I know he is. That's why I'd love to see this directly go to, hey, I just bought you a $200,000 house, and I'm gifting it to you.

Or I put $100,000 in a 529 for one kid's college and I put $100,000 in another one. And you can't do that that way. But you know what I'm saying. I would love to see some direct gifts that are assets. Yeah, so far you've just thrown money at problems and hoped that they went to the right things.

Okay, okay. And that's where we're wrong. But then, okay, so let's just say I've got this $200,000 in a brokerage account, and then she gets divorced and she's living in a little crappy apartment and I want to buy her house. Yeah.

We live in America. You can buy a house for anybody you want to. It might have a tax penalty for you. I don't know what all that is. Well, that's what I'm saying. 200 grand, you'll have your capital gains tax, and if it was held for longer than a year, it'll be long-term, likely 15%, depending on your situation. So you'll pay 15% of whatever money you...

you liquidate from the brokerage account. But I think you should talk to your get a tax pro and go to ramsaysolutions.com. No, you know, I'm a Ramsey girl. So I have a tax pro through him. Okay, then talk to your tax pro about what's the best way to get this money into the hands of my grandkids. Okay.

Okay. See, I didn't know who I should ask. Yes, because there will be tax implications, but they may be able to gift tax. Who knows? Yeah, there's a few people you can work with. The tax pro is going to help with tax strategy. You can contact a smart investor pro to help with the investment side with the brokerage account and what the best ways to use that are. And they can also connect you with the right people if, hey, this is more of an estate planning thing. Sounds like you have some history there with an estate planning attorney, but whoever set up the trust. Okay.

But they're going to know the best way to set this up to keep his hands off of it. But here's what I'm hearing from you, and I want you to be very careful, okay? Okay. You're mad.

Oh, I'm angry. Okay. You're angry. But now I will always be angry because he did something to me and I will never forget. He almost had me die. Okay. So he almost killed you. Listen, listen, listen, listen, listen. No, he didn't almost kill me. He just wouldn't let me get my medicine. I mean, it's no big deal, but this is unbearable. That is a huge deal. It's a huge deal. But listen to me. When we're angry...

When we go to fight or when we go to flight, our brains literally shut off the critical thinking parts of our brain and we are simply responding animals. We're running from things or we are fighting things. Okay? And so if you are angry and you are moving this account out of anger, you're not going to think clearly. And I'm going to... That's why you got to get a professional in your corner so that you can exhale and

and make a logical move. Get a critical thinking brain next to you, whether it's yours or a tax pros or an investing pros or an estate attorney, somebody who's going to say, okay, I know you're mad, but let's do this in the right way, in the right order. So

Our scripture of the day, Isaiah 55, 2. Why do you spend money for what is not bread and your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to me and eat what is good and let your soul delight itself in abundance. Jordan Peterson said, the successful among us delay gratification and bargain with the future. There's some wisdom for you. Jay is in Charlotte, North Carolina up next. What's going on, Jay?

Hey, thanks for taking my call. I've got a question. It might sound silly, but I don't really trust people or stockbrokers or whatever you want to call it with my money. I'm trying to make some passive investments and just kind of looking for some advice on how to move forward without kind of maybe it's me not letting go of the reins or something, but I've seen the horror stories and I've heard the horror stories of people trusting other people's money, so that's kind of my hesitance. Have you heard the...

millions and millions and millions of other stories where people just put their money with an investment professional or even in just an index fund and they've made, just had a good retirement? Yeah.

I have, man, and I'm ignorant to how to move – how to do it. I've done okay for myself, and I'm just looking to make some passive investments, but, man, I'm scared to bite the bullet, to be honest with you. Well, so I guess the big thing is there's no such thing as a passive investment. That's a made-up Instagram word. There's no such thing as that. Okay. Me and George, our colleague Dave Ramsey, he owns –

a jillion rental houses and he'll be the first to tell you there's zero passive about it he owns um uh like shopping centers zero passive about any of that it's a job it's all work okay so this idea that you just like set it and forget it is not a real thing unless you're talking about mutual funds in the market or maybe that's more so what i was talking about yeah that's that's more so what i was talking about i've got some commercial stuff and stuff

I consider that active. I've got my active stuff that I do, but I'm looking more so how do I get smart about the real stuff where you're just handing over the money and they're investing it in companies and EFTs or whatever. That's more so where I need guidance.

Sure. And I think you've – I don't know if you've had a bad experience or if you've just read stories, but there's a difference between a stockbroker and a financial advisor. So a stockbroker is on just a transactional person. Hey, you want to make this trade? I'll make the trade for you, and I'll take a commission or a fee. And so that's very clear what they're doing. You're still in the driver's seat. And I think I want to remind you that if you are not in the driver's seat, you're working with the wrong person.

If they just say, hey, man, just give me 10 grand. I got it. I'll turn it into 20. Run far away. But if you're in the driver's seat and they're educating you on what they're recommending to put the money in, and then you say, yes, I want to put my money in there, and they're showing you the track record, they're showing you the expense ratios, they're explaining all of this to you, that's a different situation. So I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say that all stockbrokers are fraudsters because that's not true.

And so I think you can do your due diligence. You can jump on to RamseySolutions.com, hit SmartVestor, and you can interview several financial advisors and go with the one that you trust. And you still make all the decisions. You control how much money goes into these accounts, where this money flows into. They'll show you at any given moment how the investment's doing.

And the other side is this idea of like just giving someone, they just lose all the money. That's legitimate scams and fraud. That doesn't happen in the true investing world. So let that also give you some peace of mind. I would love to know, like, where does your, where does your heart rate get up?

Where's that from? Where's that from? Yeah, yeah, I got scammed a while back, and then I was real close to getting scammed by somebody recently here that was in the news that was a big scammer in the southeast. How are you finding these people that have scammed you? They're finding me, I guess you would say. Exactly. So that's a key red flag. If they're coming to you, run away.

Sure.

I fell for some traps and that it's not all bad apples out there that will help you. But you're asking about investing. Are you looking to just invest outside of retirement?

Yeah, yeah. I'm looking to – I've got some cash, and that's my cash. So I'm just looking to make that – I don't know where to put it other than money markets at this time. So that's kind of it. This is my investment. I'll tell you what. The only type of investments Dave has is real estate and mutual funds. Okay.

And that's all you need. And you can define mutual funds as an index fund. I'm not, this is not a debate about index versus mutual. What we're talking about is a giant group of stocks, like 90 to 200 or more in one fund, and then having multiple funds to diversify against that. And so that's going to also give you some peace that the market's not going to go down to zero, right? If you have a single stock in a single company, there's a chance that company goes bankrupt, you lose all your money.

But when you're invested in the entire stock market, well, we know that would be apocalyptic if every company went to zero. That's an insane predicament.

And so that should also give you some peace. And we'll send you over our investing guide, ramsaysolutions.com slash guide. I think just reading through that and understanding the basics of investing will give you some peace of mind that it's not as complicated as you think. There's not some guy in a back room secretly picking some secret stock that no one else has access to. It's just someone explaining to you how the market works, what the track records have been, and then just trusting that the U.S. economy –

like we've seen over time, will be up and to the right, even during scary times like we're in right now. And I guess, let me just say this, man, my smart investor pro that's been in the Ramsey program forever, I

I've called and said, hey, I want to do this. And he has taught me, like, I will do whatever you say. I work for you. He says that all the time. And he said, walk me through why you're thinking this. And then he teaches me, here's why I'm doing what I'm doing. Here's why I think your idea is not a good move. And here's exactly how I will do it if that's what you want me to do.

And I've been with him for so long now. Now we laugh. Like he'll say, hey, he'll know the market's down. He'll text me and say, you're about to get an email. Don't open it because you're going to freak out and you're going to call me. And so just to whatever it's worth...

My experience has been 100% the opposite of yours. And I don't want to say that to like have any shame or anything. I just want to let you know, there's good guys out there. There's great men and women out there taking care of people like me. I'm super sensitive and I'm dramatic and all that who just work with me on like taking care of my family's future. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah. That's what I'm looking for. And I want that peace of mind and I need that peace of mind because I'm getting older and I just, you know, a few more years I want to call it quits. Yeah, exactly, man. And dude, I can hear it in your voice. There's like a tension around it, man. I want to free you from that, dude. Not free you from the risk of financial stuff. It's scary to put a lot of money out there. You know, it's scary to say, hey,

take my money and, you know, know when I've worked so hard for it, you know? Absolutely. Yeah. And you know what else is scary is seeing your money not even grow at the rate of inflation. Yeah. And so I also don't want you to just park it in a mattress or even a money market for the next 20 years because you're spooked by the market or by stockbrokers or whatever. So you definitely need to get over this hurdle. And I think interviewing some of these smart investor pros, you can jump on ramseysolutions.com slash smart investor and type in your zip code and talk to them.

And say, hey, here's all my fears. Here's the trauma I experienced in the past. Can you walk through this with me and help me understand what I'm getting into by trusting you and with these recommendations on what to do with my money? And if you don't get a good vibe, just say, all right, I'm done. I'm going to move on to the next guy. Hey, Jay, how much have you lost?

About $250,000. Okay. Can I just tell you, like, your apprehension is well-earned. Your body's working perfectly. Good on you. You're not paranoid. You're right to be apprehensive. You're probably a little paranoid like me. Like, paranoid recognizes paranoid, right? Because we all know it's all coming down, Jay. Game, right? But, like, man, you got hit in the mouth hard. So good for you for not just running back into it like a madman, right? But also...

The only way to have peace in your life is to exhale and be smart, but then get back in the ring at some point, right? Yeah, yeah, I hear you. I hear you. Yeah, good on you, man. I appreciate it. Good on you. I appreciate it, man. Thanks for taking the call. All right, bro. Good luck.

And I love this call because Jay was very honest, just going, listen, I don't have it all figured out. And I've gotten burned before. Been burned. He's a smart guy. He makes a lot of money. So this is not a guy who's a beginner, but he's realizing I need a pro in my corner I can trust. And it's the same reason I use a real estate agent and I have a barber because I can't be trusted to do these things myself. I want to offload it to the experts. And that's okay. And if you want to connect with a smart investor like we mentioned,

Just jump on to ramseysolutions.com slash smart investor, get connected, and give you some peace of mind. Hey, you guys, I was shocked to learn that 88% of you out there are sharing the Ramsey show. I mean, that is so incredible. Thank you so much. And I want to tell you that we're making it even easier to share. So this June, we have pulled together the brand new Ramsey 101 YouTube playlist, and

a quick start collection of how to get started walking the Ramsey Plan. Now, this playlist is perfect for that one person in your life who needs help winning with money and just doesn't know where to start. So here's what's inside. What the baby steps are and why they actually work, how the debt snowball helps you pay off debt fast, and how to build wealth and invest for the future, and so much more.

So here's what you need to do. Click the link at the top of the show notes. It'll take you straight to the YouTube playlist. Copy it. Text it. Send it in a group chat. Just say, hey, I thought this might help. Because one playlist shared at the right time could be the turning point. One share. One playlist.

One step could change everything for that one person in your life. So click the link, share The Ramsey Show, and let's help someone out there start winning with money.