If You're Intentional With Money, You Can Win With Money
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Hey guys, Dave Ramsey here. Me and Dr. John Deloney are coming to a city near you on the Money and Relationships Tour. It's happening soon, so don't wait. Get your tickets at ramseysolutions.com slash tour. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people.

build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality No. 1 best-selling author and host of the new hit on Ramsey Network's Front Row Seat, where he is interviewing big names and going really deep in these interviews. It's a wonderful show. Be sure to check it out. J.D. is going to start this hour in Dayton, Ohio. Hi, J.D., what's up?

Hey, Dave, thanks for taking my call. Sure. It's an honor to speak to you. You too. I have a question. Try to get through this. About five weeks ago, my wife out of nowhere said she wanted to separate. Came out of nowhere. Our marriage definitely had its ups and downs. We've always worked through it. Some other things I found out, but we're living apart right now.

And about two weeks into this, she split up the finances completely without even telling me. So my question is, how do I best navigate this through the separation? Since we are still legally and biblically married, how do we navigate handling finances right now? You separate them as if you're divorced. Okay. And then if there is an answer to prayer and reconciliation and you get back together, you recombine them.

Okay. You have direct deposit on your payroll? Yes, and so does she. Yeah, go open a new checking account and have your check sent to your checking account. But the thing that I'm wary of is that she can see what I'm doing, but I can't see what she's doing. Not if you do that. Yeah, she has access to my account. Not anymore. You're going to go close that and open a new account. Because it was a joint account. Close it. Yeah.

I'm just like, she basically wants to continue paying down our debts. Well, that's her problem. She's the one causing all this. So you asked me what you should do. What you should do is separate as if you are getting divorced. You should go open a new checking account, have direct deposits sent over there, and then you pay what bills you're agreeing to pay during this separation while you negotiate the terms of the divorce, who gets what bills.

Okay. If all of that, if all of that gets sidetracked and you end up at reconciling, then you just go back to a joint account and you reconcile. That's what, cause that's what I'm, I'm hoping and praying for. We're both in counseling. Um, we're seeing the same counselor, but separate. She's, um, there was an affair on not my part. Um,

But I'm still willing to work through this. But I think the issue is our income is a lot different because I have a lot of chronic health issues, so I don't make as much. So the amount of debt that I have, I can't cover by myself. So that's why she was okay with, like, hey, if you need money, we can, like, work as a team to get everything paid off. Well, I mean, you can send her a list of the bills that she needs to help you pay, but that doesn't mean you have to have combined checking accounts. Okay.

Okay, because here, John Deloney taught me a saying, and he taught me by sitting at my right like Ken Coleman is right now. He says that behavior is a language. I heard two very disturbing words.

for the future of your marriage in this conversation so far. Not verbiage, but actual behaviors. Behavior number one, she's sleeping with someone else. Behavior number two, she separated the money without even telling you. None of these two behaviors say you're getting divorced.

I do have to say the affair was emotional, and it's kind of on the back burner, and he's going back to his wife. So I think that's burning out. Yeah, and she separated the money, so I don't believe that.

Okay. Yet. I hope, I hope that's all right. And I hope you guys get back together and I hope you're able to work your way through this, that you're, you're part of it. But, uh, in the meantime, you said, what would I do with my money? I would separate it completely. I would just completely separate it. And then if there are some common things we need to work on, you'll write your check towards that. She can write her check towards that, but that, but we don't need to have everything in one pile anymore. Uh,

because she's doing a lot of sudden emotional things that are not pointing towards reconciliation. Yeah, because I think what I didn't like is that since I'm self-employed, one part of our – we had like one big account, but we had like checking, saving, saving, savings for like my taxes, medical,

um housing and she divided all of that up so i don't even have everything that i need for to pay the tax the tax bill that i have coming up um okay well she you know she don't have that right she can't take money out of that account um that has your name on it in this situation the divorce court will undo that and the judge would hand the money back to you

So do you think I should sit down and just say, hey, what exactly is... Yeah, I think you try to get some clarity. What exactly do you have? Okay. Well, you know, and where's my dad got money, by the way? Hello? That'd be something I'd want to know. Yeah. The money that was for my taxes, it just disappeared a minute ago, and we had set that aside for taxes. It needs to be there, and it needs to go to taxes. So I need that put back like now. And no, you can't buy your boyfriend a car.

And there's about $20,000 set aside for we're saving up for a home. $10,000 of that came from her boss. So I don't know where she used that. I don't care where it came from. It's common property now. Okay. And you have as much right to it as she does. Okay. Okay. So, you know, we have a $20,000 savings account. You can't just make off with that money. You don't have that option legally. Okay.

Because since we don't have kids, she was kind of wanting to push towards just doing a disillusion if it gets to that. Not the way this is working so far. Okay. Because she's much better at negotiating so far than you are. Well, you're right. And because I did speak to a divorce attorney in my family, advised me to do that. Yes. Check my rights. And it sounds like going that route would be more expensive for her because she makes so much more money than me and she's got a 401k. Okay.

It's not more expensive for her. It means that you get what the law says you get in the event of a divorce. The other route, you get what she says she's going to give you because you're going along with everything. So now, yeah, you need some help in your corner, dude. Yeah, JD, I'm just listening to this entire exchange with Dave, and I think you've got to separate hoping and praying for this marriage from protecting yourself.

Protecting yourself doesn't mean that you can't hope and pray. So it's like do the counseling, hope, pray, do everything you can that it does work out. But at the same time, you must protect yourself and stand up for yourself in the midst of this. She's just rolling all over you. And it feels like in some cases I heard you almost making excuses for her. And I think you've got to stop that. Hoping for the best.

but also have some sense and protect yourself. So there's got to be a mental approach to this alongside the emotional. And boy, my heart breaks for you, J.D. I mean, I feel for you. I can't imagine. But you need a mental strategy while you're dealing with this emotional mess. And that's what Dave's telling you. My friend that does divorce counseling says that divorce turns a marriage into a business transaction. And so far in this conversation, you suck at this business. Mm-hmm.

So you need to separate this, protect, and then come from a position of strength with an attorney in your corner of how we're going to reconcile or how we're going to split equitably under the law, not under what she wishes. She's got this fantasy in her head that is not reality, and she's getting ready to find that out. This is The Ramsey Show. As an investor and a person of faith, when your mutual funds and ETFs put your money into the dark side, you might feel a disturbance. Well,

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Ken Coleman Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us. If you've ever run a business or are running a business or know someone that is, you know one thing. It's hard. It's rough. It's tough. As a matter of fact, when you become self-employed, you will discover you have a jerk for a boss. That person will work you into the dirt. I mean, they will work you like a rented mule. It's crazy.

Some of you don't even know what that means. But anyway, so here's the thing. It's also a lot of fun. I've been running this business for almost 40 years now from a card table in my living room. And it's just a straight up, it's a dadgum adventure every day.

There's always something wild and wacky that you don't see coming. It's a blast. And you need a path, a clear path to get through and to grow the business. We have developed that from our experiences at Ramsey and also coaching about 10,000 small businesses for the last decade or so through Entree Leadership. And the path is this. There's five proven stages of business, particularly small business, and there's six drivers that drive you

through those five stages. In other words, if you understand that framework, you've got the baby steps for a small business. And I just did it in a book. The book's coming out April 15th. It's on sale right now. It's called Build a Business You Love. Build a Business You Love. And we're going to take you through this Entree Leadership Framework and show you it's not going to make your business instantly easy. It's not an easy button. It's not a...

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which is probably the number one sore spot in business, hiring and firing process and

Also, early access to the e-book itself and the audio book on this book is pretty incredible. Yes, I did voice it, but we also did a bunch of enhancements to where it feels a little bit more like a podcast than an audio book. And so you're really going to like that if you're an audio book person. Pre-order at RamseySolutions.com or click the link in the description if you're on YouTube or on a podcast. Derek's in Florence, South Carolina. Hey, Derek, welcome to The Ramsey Show. Hey, Dave, thanks for having me. Sure, what's up?

Um, so what's up is my current situation. Um, I'm set to be adhering to my dad's business over the next 12 months. Um, right now I work with him in the same business. So, um,

It's not like it's anything new as far as learning too much other than having a lot more payroll expenses. But my main question is really, is this going to be a big change of income for me? It'll be roughly tripling my income or so. I'm making about $150 right now and I'll be making $450 to $550 or so over the next year.

And there's going to be expenses in there, but it'll still be a lot of extra net income. So my question is really, I don't know exactly what I should be doing with that extra income. Obviously, I might have some more expenses with marketing or something, but I, of course, want to be in a better financial position and not get too ahead of myself in just the money life. So trying to get some insight on what to do with that and trying to play my cards the best way I can. Yeah.

Okay. You're inheriting the business? Did your dad pass?

No, I'm sorry. He's retiring. So he's been in the, we have an insurance agency together. I've been working with him the past 10 years and he's looking at retiring sometime between the end of this year and beginning of next year within the next 12 months. So he'll be giving the business to me. So I'll be inheriting his book of business, you know, the whole agency. So are you buying him out?

I'm not. No, he is giving it to me. I've offered to give him something in the past, actually, but he doesn't want to take my money. So that's good. So it's basically you're getting the book of business. And how many employees have you got? We have, it'll be about four employees that we pay. So how's he going to eat? He's obviously built a nice retirement nest egg, huh?

He has, and he's done some development. He's done a few development projects over the past few years, and so that's really his retirement egg right there, and then plus whatever he's had from insurance over the years. Okay. All right. Cool. Yeah, so he'll be fine without anything here. He'll be good. So basically, this is the transition. He's tossing you the keys, and you've got this puppy. So your question is how to handle the increase in income responsibly.

Right, correct. I've had a, you know, my history, I've always lived pretty comfortably, but, you know, whenever I do get more money, I tend to spend it on things that are stupid and, you know, try to, you know, not spend more than I have. I'm not in debt necessarily, but not having a whole bunch of extra savings coming in. I'm 33. Are you married? I am married, one kid. Okay, all right.

Well, here's the thing. Very few people do something stupid intentionally. So if left to a vacuum is where stupid sneaks in. And so what I mean is that you're being very wise right now, the opposite of stupid, in that you say, okay, I need a plan for this because if I don't have a plan, I'm going to have a problem. Right. And so what I would do is sit down with your wife and say, write down what we're going to do with $450,000 this year.

What are we going to do with it? And then do that with it. Well, and the thing is, you know, talking about some of the stupid things, you know, and maybe not stupid things is not the right word, but we bought a house in the past two years. That was certainly structuring our income. So a big portion of what we make right now goes to, you know, paying the mortgage. Okay. Same thing applies. Okay. I now have $450,000 for the coming 12 months.

write down exactly in detail what I'm going to do with it. So you're telling me 150 is what you were making. The house payment's a strain. The house is a strain. So you may want to, okay, we're going to raise our living budget to 200, which still leaves me $250,000. I need to decide what I'm going to do with. There's only three things you can do with money, by the way, invest it, save it, enjoy it, and give it. And you probably ought to do all three.

Yeah. With the extra $250,000. So out of that $250,000, you two look at each other with the kid in bed and the TV off and the phones face down, and you look at each other deeply in the eyes and say, all right, how much of this $250,000 are we going to invest? How much are we going to spend on fun? And how much are we going to be outlandishly generous with? Yeah, and we've talked about it. One thing with a wife, she's generous.

she's always the one to have, you know, a barn or a yard. And we have, we have a few acres so we can make that happen, I guess. But, um, you know, trying to see how wide I should guess we want to have, um, a barn and, you know, pasture and everything in the backyard. Um, so that's the one thing we talked about wanting, you know, to have in the next five years, um,

Potentially. Well, then let's say, all right, what's the barn going to cost? I got a five-year plan. I need to set aside one-fifth of that per year out of this money. That's an example of what we're talking about. So you guys need to, you know, right now this is all up in the clouds and it's bouncing around inside your head. It does not have any organization. I'm telling you to write it down like it's a dadgum business plan. Yeah.

I want to add in here really quick. I'm listening to you, Derek. We know from research that whatever we focus on, in other words, we allow a thought to stay in our head.

and we fixate on that thought, then what happens is our brain goes and takes pictures of it everywhere. So in other words, if somebody starts their day off feeling like a victim, then the rest of the day, their brain is going to go look for evidence of this thought. Now, this is like basic neuroscience, all right? Now, here's what's happening. All throughout the conversation with you, Dave, I heard Derek, I heard you say, I heard shame.

I did dumb in the past. I did stupid in the past. And Dave would tell you, do this. Lay it out. Set a budget. You know, be intentional. And you kept coming back to. And I just want to encourage you.

I think you're so ashamed and so embarrassed, and I'm going to say a little bit of fear that you're going to do something dumb again. And it's because you're so focused on what you've done in the past instead of going, all right, Dave told me what to do. Have a written plan, and we're going to decide. We're not going to let the wife and me get excited and talk about a lavish barn. No, we're going to say we'd like to have a barn. Here's what happens.

good, better, and best would look like. So I just want you to start focusing on that you aren't going to do something stupid in the future with money if you're intentional. I think that's got to be the new thought in your mind. I can be intentional with money, therefore I can win with money. And I think that'll change his perspective. Intentionally give some of it, intentionally save some of it, intentionally enjoy some of it, be in agreement in detail with your spouse exactly how much, and then live what you write down.

And you won't do stupid then. You'll be fine. That's right. This is The Ramsey Show. Hey, you guys. I'm not a fan of the big banks, and you probably already know which ones I mean. But I do like credit unions because they're nonprofit organizations that focus on their members. And I'm proud to endorse Fairwinds Credit Union because they share the Ramsey mission of helping people get out of debt.

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That's Fairwinds, F-A-I-R-W-I-N-D-S dot org slash Ramsey. Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host. Thank you for joining us. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Kate is in Bozeman, Montana. Hi, Kate. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. Thanks for having me. Sure. What's up?

Um, I'd like your opinion on whether or not I should go back to baby step two and help my husband. I've been working the Ramsey for just under a year. Um, and so I'm a lot farther than him. I think I'm on six. So now that he's fully on board, I'm just wondering if I should go back and start helping him.

Okay. Yeah, you've been doing it wrong. So, yes, you should. You should have been with him all along. You're married. So definitely, you should combine your goals. You should combine your dreams. You should plan to be married a long time. And you should, you know, combine all income, combine all problems, and combine all solutions. Okay.

And that's the fastest and the highest probability of a high-quality marriage that becomes wealthy. Okay. The couples that do what you guys have been doing have a very low statistical probability in the data that we have of actually becoming wealthy. And generally, it ends up in some kind of marriage problem. Okay. Because you're not dreaming together. You're not setting a future in your mind together. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. And I've been trying to get him on board. It's just, he's a little stubborn, so I can't force him. I couldn't, you know, just stuff it down his throat. I just listened to like the Ramsey personality books really loudly and being obnoxious doesn't work either. No, no, no, no. I wasn't trying. You listened really loudly. I heard you.

I love you. You're awesome. If we're in the car on a long trip, I just put one of the books on. How long have you all been married? 25 years. Wow. Are you both for separate accounts or just him? You separated your money. Is that something you both have been for this whole time or just him? Because that's another issue here.

You mean separating the money? Yeah, you guys have separate accounts. You said his consumer debts. Dave said you need to do it together. I'm curious. Are you both on that same page that you've always had separate accounts and you were fine with it, or is it him or you? Who's driving the separation of the accounts?

Well, when we were first married, all of our money was together and he was kind of like hands off. He's like, here's my paycheck. Just do whatever with it. But then we ran into some problems and one of us had developed a major addiction problem. So the other one of us had to do it for safety purposes because I couldn't keep the bills paid without, you know, the money being in the account. So it was separated for a reason. But now that that's been resolved, I think we're in a great place to get our

get our finances back together. It's just been so long now that it's kind of weird. You know what I mean? So I think we're moving forward in that. That's understandable. That makes a lot of sense. It is awkward. I'll give you that. And that's fair. And the history you just laid out explains a lot, really. So that part's fair. But again, where you guys paint a detailed picture of what our life looks like 20 years from now, and then we combine forces together,

to knock down blockers and achieve the goals to get to that life. And that creates not only an incredible relationship of trust and high levels of communication and respect, but it also actually increases the probability of that life that you pictured occurring. Because we studied 10,167 millionaires. One of the things we found among them was 89% said, my spouse and I work together.

You know, and that's the proof in the pudding right there. I mean, it's like nine out of ten of them. So 10% found a way to get there without with a reluctant spouse somehow. Yeah.

or with a spouse that was a hardhead, or a spouse that didn't want to participate, or a spouse that wouldn't listen, or whatever. But 89% got there by the two of us looking like two adults saying, hey, let's talk about where we want to be. Let's get agreement on where we want to be, and then let's get in attack mode to get there. Dave, you've done a lot of financial counseling crisis with couples. I'm going to bring this up for your take, but it feels like hearing what Kate just said

that this might be the last piece of the healing. Yeah. That she goes, okay, you've done your work, you've cleaned up, and now I'm going to trust you. And boy, that forgiveness in the form of trust feels like the last piece of healing and hopefully restoration for them. Well, and not only that, you know, he's more like my wife, Sharon. Sharon said, whatever you want to do, honey. Right. And one of the things we had to come up with was we said, okay, we just can't use that phrase anymore. You can't say that anymore.

Because I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do whatever I want to do. I'm going to do whatever we want to do. And so you're going to speak up, and I'm not going along with this. You're going to dump it on me. Because then if it's not right, you're going to blame me. And I'm not okay with that. When we agree together, I told you so leaves.

And so I'm not taking the responsibility for this whole thing by myself. You're going to be with me. And I get it that I'm the nerd. I get it. I'm probably going to be the one executing a lot of the details of this. And the one probably writes out the stupid spreadsheet. I'm that guy. I get all of that. But you're going to have a voice in this, a vote in this. And I don't even care if you want to. You still have to. You still have to say what we're doing together. You have to say it out loud. You cannot say whatever you want to do, honey.

And, you know, it's kind of when you're young and you're married and your wife looks at you and says, whatever you want to do, honey, you kind of stick your chest out and go, of course, I'll be them. I'll take care of everything, little lady. You know, and it's like then you find out you're an idiot.

And you really, you know, I don't want to do everything I want to do. I want to do the stuff together. It's much more effective. I make better decisions with the other half of my brain plugged in called her, you know, and so who can find a virtuous wife for her worth is far above rubies. The heart of her husband safely trusts her and he will have no lack of gain.

I'm convinced one of the reasons that we're very wealthy today after recovering from bankruptcy 30 years ago is not just that we've made some money, but that we work together.

I trust my virtuous wife, and I have had no lack of gain. I mean, that proverb is playing out right in front of you, boys and girls. So that's what it's about. And, Kate, I really like where y'all are having fun with this. You're laughing about it. I'll turn it up. I'm going to be obnoxious and turn up the books, the Ramsey books too loud, and that's fun. And, you know, you've worked through some tough stuff there in the past, and the verbiage that you use tells me it's probably way in the past. And Ken's probably exactly right that him saying that

I'm going to participate in the decision-making like a grown man, not necessarily do all the detailed stuff, because I can tell you, Kate's the detail nerd. Yeah, no question. Okay? But him saying that is part of him coming past the former problems and saying, all right, I actually have an opinion, and it does matter, even though I have that in my past. That's right. And that's a part of his healing. Yeah, it's absolute restoration is what I'm hearing here. Yep, amen. Amen.

Amen. And it's really, really powerful. Builds trust like you wouldn't believe. Joanna's with us in Youngstown, Ohio. Hi, Joanna. How are you? Well, I'm doing good. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. What's up?

Um, so we, my husband and I currently are doing the financial peace program and we're trying to pay off debt. My husband is an army veteran and he, um, is now a owner operator semi truck driver. Um, he went to buy a new truck at the beginning. He's planning on doing one this year and they looked at our credit and

And our credit, they said, was too bad for him to get another loan for another semi. Great. Good? Yeah, because now you're not that much further in debt. That was another big purchase. But this has me terrified because all we have is $1,000 in savings as we're trying to pay off this debt. Good. And if that truck does break down...

Sometimes to get it back over the road, you drop $40,000 to get it back over the road. In your business, he's running a business, you need to have retained earnings that are more than to cover repairs, a reasonable repair. But going and buying a new truck because this one might break and going another $40,000 or $50,000 or $100,000 in debt because this might break is a really stupid idea. So I'm really thankful you got turned down for that.

But over in his business, he needs some retained earnings to cover repairs because he's been over the road truck driver. That's common sense. Absolutely put some savings over there, more than $1,000. This is The Ramsey Show.

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You should check it out on Ramsey Network. It's on YouTube and podcasts and all those places that you see that Ramsey Network thing. Like the Ramsey Network app, which is free. All right, Samantha's in Springfield, Illinois. Hi, Samantha. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Thank you so much, Dave and Ken, for taking my phone call. I really appreciate your time. Sure, what's up?

So, I have a bit of an interesting question. I am trying to figure out how to navigate graduate school as a non-traditional student. Cool. What are you going to study? So, I am a bit ambitious in that I want to do a combined MD-JD program. Okay. Why? So, about a year ago, I did...

I volunteered for the county, and I was working with amazing defense attorneys, and I loved the work so much. I didn't realize how much I was going to enjoy it. So I started assisting them with case files, and, I mean, when I came home, I was just super excited. So what's wrong with just going to law school? Nothing, actually. Okay.

So why the ambitious? Maybe explain that to us. What's the reason for going and getting this particular route? Before I wanted to be a lawyer, I was pretty head set on becoming a doctor. I currently have an associate's degree in psychology and

Just a little bit about me. I have two children. They are both in elementary school, and I do work full-time. I work from home, so that has been really helpful with navigating school. And I will be starting my bachelor's degree here in the fall.

And currently how that's going to be paid is 60% of it is going to be grants. 30% of it is going to be scholarships through the university and the rest of it will be paid for. That's great. But here's my question. Let me jump in because you,

You asked us for our thoughts on how to do this, and so my question is, why are we doing this? I mean, I understand you initially wanted to be a doctor, but now it sounds like you've fallen in love with the legal side of things. Where do you want to be 10, 15, 20 years from now? MD, being a medical doctor and a lawyer simultaneously serves zero purpose. Yeah, and I was expecting some unicorn description here, and you don't have that.

So where do you want to be 10 years, 15 years from now? Doing what? Law or medicine? So I currently work for a hospital here nearby, and I would love to continue working for them. I just thought that as far as working in their legal department, that it would be really beneficial for me to have a medical background as well. Not at all. No. No. Any doctor would tell you that. It's not going to make you a better lawyer.

You need to be smart enough to grasp the issues in the medical field of law, but you don't have to go get an MD to be an effective lawyer in the medical community. Not at all. No, that's like saying I have to be an architect to represent architects in the law field. No. Or I have to be an engineer to represent an engineer as a lawyer. No, absolutely not.

No, I mean, I think you need to decide what you want to do. And it's all over the map. I think that's your issue. And then you can start. You've already figured out how to get the bachelors under your belt with no debt. Okay. And then we say, okay, we're going to go to law school. All right. What kind of law school? It's obviously going to be a nontraditional law school.

Uh, cause you're not going to be able to do, you know, just, just stop your life and go for two years with little kids. And it's not, you know, so you're going to do some kind of a, uh, a version. Um, I don't, I think, I don't know if it's still open here. We used to have a version here in Nashville, uh,

that it was a night school, is what we used to call it. You go to night school and you can become an attorney past the bar. No question, yeah. And I knew some of the guys that went through that, and they made great lawyers because—

because they were doing it as an adult. It wasn't theory. They were really digging in. And so something like that, and then figure out a way to fund it with your day job and like you've done on your undergrad with grants and other things, and that's the way to go. But I think you need some real clarity on, because what you're asking to do to go to law school in your situation is a very tough thing.

Oh, my gosh. That's a lot of time and money to be very practical. You're going to really go through a lot. If you add anything else to that plate, the plate's going to break. Yeah. And so we're asking you don't add the MD to the plate. Yeah. Dave's right. Samantha, you need to figure out the mountain. Let's figure out the mountain and then the best way to climb said mountain. Let's give her –

Let's give her my book, Find the Work You're Wired to Do. It comes with the Get Clear Assessment. This is going to give you tremendous clarity. When you get the results of this assessment in less than about 18 minutes, Samantha, it's going to make it really, really clear to you which choice to make. And I think you've got to listen to your heart here, not your brain. Try to do it all. Do the thing that lights you up.

Yeah, and don't listen to your heart to the point that your heart's telling you to do more than is humanly possible in this process, because what you're laying out here is unbelievable. Jesse's in Seattle, Washington. Hi, Jesse. How can we help? Hey, Dave. How's it going? Great, man. What's up?

Well, my question for you, I'm 19 years old. I own my own company. It's a contracting company here in the Seattle area. And I started about a year ago, and I just got my contractor's license here about two weeks ago. And my question for you, being wintertime right now, works kind of slow and very unpredictable. My question for you, should I go out and get another more steady job as well as working my company?

Or since my expenses are pretty low right now and I can live on a pretty minimal amount, should I put my all into my company? What kind of contracting work have you been doing?

Just a general contractor. I do just about everything, retaining walls, land clearing, concrete, just about anything. Everything you just described is inside, so it's not everything. Outside, so it's not everything. There's inside work available, too. Okay, I understand that. So I do not do inside work. I don't build houses. I don't remodel anything. Everything I do is going to be outdoors. Could you do commercial build-outs, tenant improvements on the inside during the winter?

Yeah, I could. It's not something I've gotten into yet. You don't know how. It's not something I have the know-how for. Yeah, you don't know how. That's exactly right. Yes, sir. All right. So I think that what I'm going to start to do is explore my business model and say, if I'm going to only do exterior work and I'm in Seattle, I'm going to have to have something else to do during the winter. Yes, sir. Right? Right.

Yeah, totally. 100%. So I do have another, it's kind of a, uh, it's not very steady. It's down at the rail yard in Tacoma. Uh, I work down there when they have an excess of work. I'm maybe working there like once a week or so. I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's 300 bucks a day. So just my work's really on, it's really not very steady right now. Uh,

And, you know, so that's kind of what I'm thinking here. Go get something. Go get something is the answer to your question. You need to be stacking cash if you're in a seasonal business. But I would also say, Dave is on to something. I would see what you can do outside. What did you say the outside work is real quick? Run through that real fast. Land clearing is kind of my specialty. Gravel driveways, concrete, and retaining walls. I thought I heard gravel driveways. You know what I think, though? I think you'd be surprised how you getting into interior flooring could

could be a there's some transfer of some of that skill when you're when you're talking about gravel driveways and you know leveling stuff like that i'd look into stuff like that too you know which is an extension of what dave was saying you know you're doing interior flooring uh that's going on 12 months a year and i think there's some transferable skills so if i was you i would be taking a list of paper today and i go what are my actual specific describable skills for

based on that work I've been doing so far. And with a little bit of training, a little bit of observation, I can transfer that skill. That's where the biggest bang for your buck is going to be. And you're actually doing what Dave told you to do, which is now diversifying your company. Yeah, I might take a job working for another contractor doing interior work of some kind to start to learn the skills.

Yeah. And let that be your winter job. I just think if you can do gravel driveway, you can do interior concrete. Yeah, you can do a lot of stuff. It's similar. Concrete's concrete. There's no doubt about that. So, yeah, I think you're exactly right. But, yeah, you need to diversify your product line. And the way to do that is go get those skills. That puts this hour of the Ramsey Show in the books.

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Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships.

Gods and grandmas, ways of handling money and life. That's what we're going to talk about here. It's a free call at 888-825-5225. Ken Coleman, number one best-selling author, Ramsey personality, and host of The Front Row Seat, a new hit show on YouTube on the Ramsey Networks. Be sure and check him out. He's going to help me this hour. The phone number is 888-825-5225. Greg's in Dallas, Texas. Hey, Greg, how are you?

Hey, Dave. How are you doing? Better than I deserve. What's up? So I've gotten myself into a situation where I have a couple hundred thousand in credit card debt and loans that I've let go delinquent. And my question is,

Do I let it sit there and fall off my credit report? My research showed maybe it falls off in seven years, or do I attack it? And the reason I ask that is we're kind of attacking my wife's debt and my truck payment.

Those debts are about $100,000, and we're using the snowball method starting that now to attack those debts. I just cannot afford to pay these other debts. Part of my question may have been answered. What the flip did you buy for $200,000 on credit cards? A lot of stupid decisions and some bad luck. Yeah.

Living a good life. How old are you? 52. And my wife is 52. It's our second marriage. What's your household income? She is a nurse. She brings home, takes home $7,500 a month. And right now, unfortunately, I'm in between jobs laid off. And so I'm driving Uber. And I probably make $4,000 a month doing that. What were you making at your old job?

on average, it fluctuated since we've been together the past five years. I'd say on average, 85,000. We bought a house in January of 2021. How the heck did you get a house? Well, I had great credit before all this. So I had outstanding credit my whole life. I had an 800 credit score and wasn't delinquent on anything. So I bought the house and

When we got into the house, it was a new build. The payment was around $3,000. And then we got hit with the fact that the first year it was assessed on land value, so it shot up. And then we got county appraisal went up the first year before we were protected by Homestead, 60%. We appealed it, and like all our neighbors and lost. So the house payment shot up from $3,000 to about $4,200.

Since then, it's appreciated quite a bit, so we removed the PMI and got it down where it's about $3,500 right now. Now, what's it worth?

Um, that's the, that's the only good decision we made. Uh, we owe four 32 and it's worth on the low end, probably six 25 or six 50. Cool. And you have $200,000 in credit card debt and miscellaneous loans. And then you have a hundred thousand dollars on cars. Uh, no, that's like my wife's card. So my wife's car credit cards and loans before we got married. And, uh, how much is your wife's car debt?

She had no car debt for her. Oh, how much does your car? That's the first stupid decision I made. How much is your car debt? Forty two thousand dollars. OK. Yeah. So you're not going to like me, but I'm going to tell you the truth because I love you. OK, that's what I want to hear. Sell the car and sell the house. Yeah. Well, the car. Yeah. You're not going to do either one, are you?

No, we have discussed that. Yeah, you need to clean house because you've got $200,000 in equity and you've got a car that's absolutely stupid in the middle of this. You bought a house that was stupid in the middle of all this. The only thing that's good is it went up in value. And then you're telling me how you can't afford it. So, yeah, I'm going to get your career back on the rails and I'm going to pay off all my debt by selling the house and selling the car.

And, ha, whoa, look at that. You're going to be renting something and you'll be debt-free. And now you start from ground zero instead of subterranean. You have a negative net worth that's substantial right now. And you need to get back right side up on that. This is killing you. And, no, it's not going to go away, by the way, in seven years because the –

The rule on the credit reporting is not the legal obligation. It's just how long do they report it? The legal obligation does not go away, and they can still sue your butt at the 10-year mark. They can sue your butt at the 15-year mark, and they will. Okay? So this is not going away by just not dealing with it, putting your hands over your ears and going la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la and walking through in the midst of the bears and the tigers. They're going to eat your butt.

So, yeah, it might fall off of your credit bureau, but it is from date of last activity, not date of not date of default and not date of anything else. So this is not going away until you fix it, Greg. So the way you fix it is sell a car, you sell the house, get your job back. You get to get to make an eighty five thousand. She's making eighty. She's making over one hundred and twenty.

When you put that together, you got a $210,000 income. You can rebuild, save up a good down payment with zero debt and buy a cash car with zero debt and then save up a good down payment on a house and get you a nice home that you can actually afford. But right now, your life is not good.

I mean, you're even talking in circles. You have so much stress. Yeah, that's what I heard. I heard the mindset of, oh, well, and I'm just going to close my mind off to all this other stuff over here and only focus on a little bit. And what's happening here is I'm not knocking him at all, but there is this defeatist attitude, a fatalistic. I'm stuck and I can't get out. That's right. And you're not stuck. Which is why, by the way, he's staying in the Uber car a little bit too long.

I'm not against Uber. Let me say this, and I've talked to so many people. I feel like this is becoming more and more of a thing because it's an easy thing as far as stepping from being laid off or fired into something, and I'm all for that. However, if you're not careful, you get in that car,

And you're picking people up and you're staying busy and you kind of go, well, this is the best I can do right now. And you've got to treat those temporary jobs as just that temporary. You are getting after it to try to replace that income, not settling for a 50% cut and just reasoning it away.

And that's the reality. I don't mean to be unkind. It's not a mean spirit. I'm saying that it's just I know how the brain works, Dave, and activity starts to replace intentionality. And there's a big difference between activity and intentionality. In other words, someone tells me, well, Ken, I submitted 200 resumes today. That's a bunch of activity, but that's not intentionality. You didn't go see somebody. You didn't go have coffee with somebody. And so that's what we got to be careful of is not replace intentionality with activity.

Yeah, I want the temporary job to be something I hate. Absolutely. So that it's temporary. Right. Because I don't ever want to go back. I don't ever want to live like that again. I don't ever want to have to do that. I don't ever want to have to pay that price again.

to pay my bills that's a great point you know because it's uh it's kind of nice rolling around in your car your car listening to your podcast picking people up that's not i was gonna say you're kind of messing with our audience here because i mean this is who you think is listening to you man you just told a whole bunch of people not to do them but but seriously yeah it's um yeah activity and intentionality there's a difference

Now, if you take three part-time jobs to replace your old full-time job, they should all make you want to go get your old full-time job back. That's right. Or something better, but not something worse. You don't want to be doing that at 52 and then look up at 62 and you're still doing the same thing. So, Greg, you're probably not going to do what I told you to do, but you should. You should sell the car, a $45,000 car, and you're using it for a taxi. Wow. Wow.

Think about that. Not a good use of money. This is the Ramsey Show. Hey, listen up. Everyone is at risk of identity theft. I don't care if you're a hermit living off the grid listening to the show on a battery-powered radio. All of your data, collected by every company you've ever done business with, lives online. Your bank, your doctor's office, retailers, the apps on your phone, the gas station where you have loyalty rewards, they all...

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Money and relationships can be two of the biggest stressors in life. If you're feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or uncertain, you're not alone. Dr. John Deloney and me, Dave Ramsey, we're going on tour to six cities with the Money and Relationships Tour. You're going to learn how to take control and shift your mindset around money and relationships for good.

It's going to be a different kind of experience at these events. We're going to put up a list of topics before the show starts for the live audience, and you're going to vote with your app, and then we're going to do the topics you vote for.

I like that. That's kind of fun. I like that. That's a little bit stressful, but I think we can do it. Like me and John are ADD both enough that we can just kind of pull from the holster and shoot and reholster, right? Yeah, I was going to say. The tool belt's got plenty of tools. Hey, Louisville, Kentucky, April 21st. Get your tickets. Durham, North Carolina, April 23rd. Atlanta, April 25th in the Fox Theater.

Yeah. That's a great venue. It's a cool venue. It's a great old venue down there. Phoenix, Arizona. We're going to be over there May 5th. Fort Worth on May 7th. And Kansas City on May 9th. Don't wait. Tickets are selling out on these. They're not yet gone, but you don't want FOMO on this. So there you go. Yeah, you just do want to be there. That's how that works. Go to RamseySolutions.com slash 205.

tour or if you're on youtube or podcast click the link will there uh be any uh fine bourbon on the stage in louisville i doubt it unless it's backstage you're not bringing it on i'm not sure that i need my brain dumbed down by that in in this environment no that would definitely matter of fact i'm sure i don't need my brain dumbed down in that environment but yeah it could happen yeah louisville has access to some of that yes liz is in dallas texas hey liz how are you

Oh my gosh. Hi. Um, I'm so nervous. Okay. So, um, I've been with my boyfriend, I'm four, I've been with a man for four years now. He's 17 years older than I am. And it's been quite emotionally abusive and I'm trying to leave, but I have $23,000 in debt. I only really count $6,000 of that because 17 of it is car, which I'm, I,

I feel like they're going to tell me to get rid of it, but I don't want to. I'm just trying to figure out how to navigate paying off this $6,000 because it's affecting me from getting a place of my own right now. And I have a bonus from work coming up, and I'm just like, I don't know how to navigate. How old are you? I'm 27. And how much money do you make, honey? I make $2,400 a month. Doing what?

I work for a very, very large health insurance company as a customer advocate. And so you work 40 hours? Yes. Do you have any kind of education or training? No. Okay. You're a high school graduate? Yes. No college? No. Okay. Okay.

I'm going to jump in quick because there's some money stuff that Dave's going to get to, but I want to tell you one of the strategies here you've got to be thinking about quickly is raising your income. How do you take the skill set that you have? You're at a big-time healthcare company, so you're in the building.

How can you move up within the building? What skill sets can you add without going to college? What other types of work can you do to where we can get that income up by a minimum of, I want to say, 25% to 50% as you use your goal? You need more income. You just don't have much to work with. You're making $15 an hour. It's not good. And, you know, the going rate's 20 at Target.

Well, I technically make like $19.75 before taxes. Okay, so the $2,400 is take-home. Yeah, yeah. I live like two hours from Dallas, so it's like pretty good for here. Where's your family, hon? My dad lives in a motel about an hour away, and my mom lives in Missouri, and she lives off the government, so she's not very... Okay. Are you plugged into a church there in your community?

Yes. Okay. I want you to go sit down with a pastor in the next three days and ask them for some help to get you out of there. Okay. And that's not to pay off your debt. I think we need to do two things. You may need to move to a more metro area where you can get a better job, but you can't stay there another two weeks. I want you out of that house. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Stop. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You didn't hear me. You just drove right past that, and I saw you. I saw your brake lights as you went around the corner. Okay. I'm telling you, you've been putting this off, and you know the situation that you're in is evil and wrong, and you need to leave. Do you hear me, daughter? Okay.

Yes. Get out of there now. And don't talk to me about, I'm going to trade my safety and my mental health for a freaking car. Get in the car and drive to Dallas and get a job. Get in the car and talk to your pastor this week and get some help to get out of this situation because he has stolen your confidence.

Yeah. Yeah. You're right. Almost like I've done this before, haven't I? Yeah. Okay. Your dad's in a hotel. Your mom's on government. So you got nobody in your corner that's telling you you're a champion. And I'm telling you you're a champion and you deserve better than you're getting. Okay. Okay. You've never seen anybody in your family win and you're going to be the first one that goes and wins. You're going to go do something. Okay. Okay.

I want to hear a hero story about you from you six months from today that you're making $25, $30 an hour. You're standing alone with your shoulders square and your chest stuck out with pride and the debt is gone and you're getting control of your life, okay? Okay. You can't sit in this cesspool anymore. You're sitting in sewage. Do you smell it? Yeah. I smell it from over here. Yeah. Yeah.

You don't need this guy to win. You don't need him. And he's become this weird support system for you that he's abused and manipulated.

So you've got to make a clean break. I'm with Dave. Clean break. Yeah. Go see a pastor in the neighborhood right now and a loving pastor at a good church in your neighborhood will take care of you, honey. And they'll get you set up and get you out of there and then help you get the next steps into a better position, making more money. I want you working more than 40 hours and I want you making $25, $30 an hour and you can clean up this mess and you can create a sustainable life, stand alone, on your own. You are a warrior princess.

And it's time you act like it. It's time you go be the champion God designed you to be right now. And this has got to change, kid. And it's not going to change until you change it. And it's not going to change until you believe what I'm telling you is to be true, that you are worth being treated well. You're worth it. And so you need to go get yourself in a position where everyone that looks at you says, this woman demands that I treat her well.

She's a warrior princess, and she won't tolerate anything else. And that's who you're becoming as I speak right now. That's who you're becoming. And you've got to go do that. And you've got to go do it now. You hang on. Christian will pick up, and we'll find out the little town that you're in and see if we've got some connections there with some local pastors, and we'll help you get connected with one of them and get some people in your corner that aren't.

The kind that you currently have in your corner. You need a different crew, kiddo. Wow, what a mess. Open phones here at 888-825-5225. Ken, it is hokey as it can be, but this idea of what you believe...

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, thoughts are very powerful, and our brain goes and finds evidence to give truth to these thoughts. So changing your mind is a huge part of changing your life. You hate to see this out of destruction. Her parents and that poor girl, you just got to believe that she's worth it. Yeah, amen. This is The Ramsey Show.

Listen, I know a lot of you would rather watch paint dry in slow motion than file your taxes. But thankfully, you don't have to dread filing when you've got Ramsey Smart Tax. It comes packed with everything you need to file online before the big deadline. That means all major federal forms and deductions are covered immediately.

with no hidden fees. Plus, with Ramsey Smart Tax, you can save up to 70% compared to other tax software out there. It's a no-brainer. Just go to ramseysolutions.com slash smart tax and see how simple tax filing can be. That's ramseysolutions.com slash smart tax. Our question of the day is brought to you by WhyRefi, our defaulted private student loan payments dragging you down.

Why Refi could help save you thousands of dollars. Visit whyrefi.com slash Ramsey to see how they can help. That's the letter Y-R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey. Might not be available in all states. Today's question comes from Daniel in Oklahoma. My church is very big on encouraging its members regarding tithing. Our church leadership recently said...

Do not focus on investment for retirement, but focus on investment given to church and the Word of God. Retirement investment can go up and down, but investment in your church and God's Word will always prosper. Should we stop investing in order to fund our local church? Well, if, all caps, if a leader of the church said this,

to an individual, to you, or corporately from the platform, if they said this, uh,

This is not biblical, Dave. And so the answer would be a resounding all caps no from us. It would be a resounding change churches. Yeah, this is borderline apostasy. Let's walk through what portion of this is accurate. And I don't know if you've twisted this or not, Daniel, or you heard it through a different lens of some kind. So I'm not positive what...

church leadership has said other than what you told us okay so we have to go on what you told us because the only information we have now number one the tithe is not in place of retirement the tithe is a tenth of your income the word when you look it up in the hebrew or in the greek jesus used the word tithe twice you when you look it up and it literally means tenth it means 10 percent

And evangelical Christians have taught for over a thousand years that we believe that a tie, the tenth of our income, goes to our local church to support the work of God.

So if you're attending a church, you're an evangelical Christian, that's a standard teaching in a Baptist church, in any kind of normal Protestant church out there, that a tenth of your income, standard evangelical belief and teaching. I've taught it for 30 years, and I tie the tenth of my income to my local church. That's what I believe. I believe that to be biblically correct.

Above that 10% is not more tithe. It's because by definition you can't be more, you can't say I'm going to tithe more than 10% because the word means 10%. So anything above that is called an offering to support the kingdom of God or to support the community work that the church is doing, which is good work usually. And so, yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. And you do want to...

Be doing a portion, if not a good portion, of your generosity in your budget to things that are eternity-oriented, where moth and rust don't destroy, which this person said. Retirement investment can go up and down, but investment into the kingdom of God. They said church and God's word. You're not actually giving God's word money. You're following God's word when you give money into God's kingdom.

God's word is the scriptures. You don't give the Bible money. That's not, that's not, it's incorrectly stated. So that's why I'm kind of thinking, Daniel, you've misinterpreted this or heard some of it wrong. I don't know. I hate to accuse your pastor of straight up,

But the way you presented this, it sounds like crazy. Okay? So, yes, I tithe. And, yes, you should put money where moth and rust don't destroy. You should put money towards things that matter in eternity, not things that matter short term. And retirement compared to eternity is short term. And the Bible says you should save for your needs. In the house of the wise are stores of

of choice food and oil. The diligent prosper. These are actual scriptures from the Bible that I just quoted. And so wise people save money.

For a rainy day, they save money for purchases, and they save money in our society to retire with dignity so they don't have someone else having to take care of them. They don't become a charity case of the government or a charity case of their church because they took care of themselves. They were wise. They were diligent, and they prospered. And in the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil. So the Bible very clearly teaches to tithe.

to invest money into God's kingdom where moth and rust does not destroy. And the Bible teaches to save and invest. God, it is the Lord your God, it says in Deuteronomy, that gives you the power to build wealth. How is that consistent with give it all to the church and don't save any for retirement? It's not consistent. That's, as you said in the opening part on this, not biblical. Okay? So...

Uh, this sounds like a money grab the way you presented it, but that could be that it's how it felt to you. And you changed the words around to match your feeling. I don't know what was really said by church leadership here. I know what you say they said. And I'm again, I have to go on that because I don't, uh, but I don't know many churches that would say this. I agree. And we were, we worked with tens of thousands of churches across America and almost none of them say something like this. This is a,

If someone's actually saying this, it's probably some kind of sick, toxic little small church. There's something going on that's wrong. If they're actually saying this, give us all the money, don't save anything for retirement, and God will take care of you. That is not what the Bible says. It doesn't say that. And so, you know, we're not going there. But do I believe in tithing? Yes.

Do I believe in giving to eternity? Yes. Do I believe giving to eternity is more important than saving for retirement? Yes. But it's also important that you do both according to God's love letter to me, which is called the Bible. My heavenly father, which if we being evil know how to give our kids good gifts, how much more so our father in heaven, our father says that loves us, that the diligent prosper.

And that in the house of the wise are stores of choice, food and oil. Wise people save money. Diligent people prosper. It's the Lord, your God, that gives you the power to build wealth. This is all from his mouth, not from your preacher's mouth.

And so that's what you can measure this stuff against is figure out, okay, to what extent is church leadership out of line with what the scripture says? And if they're too far out of line and it seems to be self-serving, that's a disqualifier as a place to go. That's right. You need to leave. That's right. Full stop.

You don't hang out in a place that's got, they're trying to milk the cows every Sunday. That's manipulative. Trying to shear the sheep every Sunday. That's right. It's evil. That's just nuts. But is it wise? I wish more pastors would do a better job of teaching the importance of giving versus consumption because it's better for you.

If you're listening to me, you will have a better life if you consume less as an American. And we consume massive amounts in this country. We spend more on our dogs and cats than most people in other countries spend raising their children. Now you've gone and stepped in it. Yeah, I know. I did, literally. And so...

No pun intended there. And I've got a dog that I like more than most humans, but that doesn't matter. I mean, we consume, and I'd love for us all to talk about consuming a little less and being a lot more generous. It was just a couple of percentage points. You could shake this entire country up in ways that would blow your freaking mind off.

If we said, okay, I'm going to cut back on pet and Christmas and Halloween by 5%, you can fund entire children's hospitals for two years with that amount of money. It's hundreds of millions of dollars. Would I love preachers to talk more about that and more about giving into the kingdom of God and the work in the community and charitable work? Yes. Yes.

But I don't want you doing it this way. If this guy's really doing this, I'm going to call him out and say, no, honey, you're not following the word of God. And I'll challenge you on that. And I actually know what I'm talking about. And you don't want to get an argument with me on this. It's the only thing I've studied for the last 40 years. I actually know what I'm doing. This is The Ramsey Show.

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Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Anthony's in Portland, Oregon. Hey, Anthony, welcome to the Ramsey Show. Mr. Dave, hey, thank you for having me on. Sure, what's up?

Well, I have a question. I am currently on a plan right now to pay off my house in the next 20 months. Every penny that we've saved, we've dumped into this house, we've made extra payments, and we are currently looking at kind of the end of our mortgage, which is so satisfying. Wonderful.

It is. My question though is my company offers a 403B and a 457, and I'd like to start maxing those out instead of my house payment. But someone told me that when I'm ready to retire 15 or 20 years from now, I'm going to get hit with so many, this big balloon, we've hired minimum distribution payment that it's not worth investing in just those accounts. I

I'm just wondering what your advice would be on that. How old are you? I'm 49. Oh, good. What do you make? I make about 120. My wife makes about 250. Okay. And you have only 403Bs and 457s. No 401Ks available.

My wife does. Yeah, we have two Roths. We each have our own. We've got probably 70,000 on our Roth. I currently have about 80,000 in my 403B. Does your 403B have a Roth option? It does not. Does her 401K have a Roth option? It does not. Really? No. Because 80% of the 401Ks now offer Roth. Hers doesn't.

Now that I know it, we haven't double-checked that. Double-check it because I think he probably does. All right. So number one is we want to do Roth if we can because it solves this problem. Roth IRAs, Roth 401Ks, Roth 403Bs are not subject to RMD.

Okay.

Until you withdraw it. If you have not withdrawn it prior to 73, they require you to begin taking withdrawals, a required minimum distribution, because they want their tax money. If it's in a Roth, it's tax-free, and there is no required minimum distributions.

Okay. And I'm nervous about getting hit with this if we stay with a 457, a 403B, and a 401K. Well, here's the thing. The 457 is a deferred comp. It works differently. But 403B, when you retire, you could roll it to a Roth IRA and pay your taxes then if you want to. Oh, I didn't know that. But the required minimum distributions are not huge.

There's a, it's a table. There's a little factor, a little table of factors. And when you turn 73, it gives you your life expectancy and you pull that table, that factor off the table and you multiply it. And, you know, you got a million dollars in there. You're not cashing out 300,000 at 73 years old. That's not that it's a small amount. Okay. But they begin making you take the thing down to where they get their tax money before you're supposed to die. According to this table.

That's what it amounts to. So it's not that punitive. It's not the end of the world. But the way to avoid it is start moving stuff to Roth and having more and more and more in Roth and less and less and less in traditional. So whoever told you to not invest because of RMDs does not know what they're talking about. You should invest even if you have RMDs.

Okay. Because they're not that punitive. I mean, it's not going to destroy your nest egg. It's just you're going to have to pull out some every year and pay taxes on what you pull out. That's all it is. And do I do that after I retire? At 73 years old, you're required to do required minimum distributions, RMDs.

And it's really, I mean, if you want to learn, you can understand it in about 10 minutes if you just Google it and look at it. Or if you sit down with your financial advisor, they can walk you through it. It's really not that much to it. It's not that big a deal. And it's not a reason to not do investing. It is a reason to do Roth if you can't.

The more Roth you have, the less you have to deal with that. And by the way, Ken, one other benefit I'm now starting to understand at 64, and I hadn't really thought of it before, but it turns out it was genius accidentally, was that when you die and you leave an inherited IRA,

to your family, leave a million dollars in an IRA or in a 401k inherited becomes an inherited IRA. The secure act under Biden requires now that inherited IRAs are distributed over a period of 10 years. So if I leave a million dollars to my kids, they have to in a traditional IRA or 401k, they have, they have to take out a hundred thousand dollars a year.

for 10 years and they have to pay taxes on it as they take it out. If I leave them a Roth, it's tax-free. It's not subject to that. It does not have to be unpacked. It can sit there and continue to grow tax-free.

Or if they do cash it in, there's zero taxes on it because it's tax-free. So accidentally moving everything into Roth not only avoids RMD, but it also is a wonderful estate thing for the kiddos and the grandkids. They get this money, and it's all tax-free. They don't have a tax burden coming with their inheritance through a retirement plan. So Roth, Roth, Roth, Roth, Roth, Roth, Roth is what the moral of this story is.

It's the way to go. So anything you can put over there, your personal Roth, if she's got a 403B or a 401K that's a Roth, talk to your plan administrator on the 403B. They may have instituted a Roth option you don't know about. You can check on it.

And start just chunking all your money into Roth for those two reasons, if nothing else, not to mention the fact that there's no taxes on it. It's wonderful. Yes. Oh, it's music to my ears. I love hearing no taxes. Uncle Sam doesn't get his bite of my cookie jar. And that irritates you. I love that you laid that out for me because I didn't know that either. But that's why they're forcing that is so that they can get taxes. Yeah, they want their money. They want our money. Pay me now. Pay me later. Pay me often. It's not their money. Then pay me again when you die.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Pay me, pay me, pay me, pay me, pay me. Maybe not so much anymore, but now we'll see. Yeah. Wow. Pretty crazy. Pretty crazy. Awesome. Open phones at 888-825-5225. You jump in. And guys, here's a fun thing.

You can do this if you're sitting there and the guy's 50, he says 49. Yeah, 49. And I think he said he had a hundred and something thousand dollars saved, right? His wife had 300,000 and he had about 120 or yeah, about 100,000. Oh, okay. So let's say they got a half a million dollars. Yeah. Pretty close. Yeah. They're 49. If it's invested in good mutual funds, you guys can remember this formula, okay? If you're invested in good mutual funds and it's making 10% or a little more,

On average, which it should be because the market's averaged more than that. All right. If you're making 10% or a little more, that lump sum, if you don't add anything to it, will double every seven years. So they're 49. At 56, they got a million. At 63, 63, help me there. There you go. They got 2 million. At 70, they got 4 million.

So this question of RMDs or inherited IRAs, it starts to be, you know, $8 million that we're dealing with here if they don't add anything to it. And they live up into their 80s. And they keep investing it in good growth stock mutual funds that have a market-based return. That's where they're going to be. And so those of you that, you know, you can kind of take that lump sum doubles every seven years plus what you add to it. Wow. Yeah.

You can get there. In other words, you're not, it's not too late. You know, Dave, am I too old to save money? Not if you're still sucking wind, you just keep at it, baby. You're never too old until you can't suck wind anymore. And then it's over. That's good. Keep at it. Keep at it. Keep at it. Keep at it. There's something to do. There's some, listen, if you've got some money, there's always an opportunity to be generous. And if you're broke, there's not an opportunity to be generous. Keep that in mind.

Broke people can feed hungry people. I mean, rich people can feed hungry people. Broke people can't. That's right. So there you go. Let's think about this. This is The Ramsey Show.