PTFO - The Last Bromance: How Wrestling Corrupted the NBA Finals
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Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is. We can do a double team, triple team, but the NWO is the new team of the future. Sweet. Right after this ad. This Father's Day helped Dad be all he can be with a gift from the Home Depot. Because he's not just Dad, he's the handyman of the house. The plumber in a pinch.

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We've had many strange people on this show. Yes. We've had an 86-year-old grandpa. Recently, we had a NASA scientist. We had a former federal prosecutor, a U.S. senator, Action Bronson, and well beyond, and for legal reasons, I can't even say so much how beyond we tend to go. This, though, my...

might be a new raising of the bar for what we're about to unveil here for people. I'm really excited to make my case. Thank you for doing this, Neil Punzalan. An honor to have you on the show. I'm super excited. I came in with the idea of if I could just get one of the people that listen to your show, one of your devoted family, if I could get just one person to believe me, and I'm now at the point, I'm so excited, there's an electricity coursing through my body. I now firmly believe by the end of this,

the NBA is going to put a hit on me. I think they're coming after me. Okay. So to explain why it is that I'm not even going to push back on that right now, we got to explain that this is a story fundamentally about two things that you love. And one of those things I don't know a lot about as much as I'm surrounded by it all the time now. And that thing is pro wrestling.

This is a metaphor for a lot about our civilization. But in this case, it is concretely something that had collided, it turns out, with the NBA.

As recently as last year. This Jalen Brunson, Tyrese Halliburton thing. The WWE is smart enough to use people that love wrestling and they've done it for years.

And so you have this sports moment that helps elevate WWE, helps elevate the NBA as well. And it's a great piece of sports marketing. There was a steel chair in that. Again, that was an example of the NBA being brought into the ring. That's right.

This story, though, is the inverse. 100% the inverse. And that's why it's so much more powerful because it is not necessarily athletes just showing up at a professional wrestling event. It is professional wrestling bleeding into NBA games. So where in the history of the NBA finals, which are happening now, by the way, in the present tense as we speak, are we? Here we go. The wait is over. The NBA finals are here.

The '98 finals, obviously, Chicago Bulls, Utah Jazz, Michael Jordan, Karl Malone, and most importantly, Bob Costas and Round Ball Rock. In my childhood memory... 17 seconds from game seven or from championship number six. It is Bob Costas saying, "Jordan, open." Chicago with the lead!

And then we see it. We see the most famous shot in basketball history. That's right. The most famous NBA Finals arguably ever. For certain. It's the second three-peat for Jordan's Bulls. That is the way everyone remembers the 1980 Finals.

If you look at the '98 finals now through a different lens, there was an apocryphal story in 1998 of Rodman skipping practice. I remembered hearing something about it as a kid, and then when I watched The Last Dance, you see it come to life and it's real. So Dennis Rodman ran off after game three. He took a detour from playing with the Bulls to become a wrestler with Hulk Hogan.

They literally have footage of Dennis Rodman running from the media. You know, like I said, like you said, a playoff game, I'm going to go wrestle. If I do this, I go over here. If I do that, I got to go do this. You know, they're going to get to 100% when I'm on the court.

This is, again, just another fantastic storyline within this 98 finals. Rodman skipping practice, going to Auburn Hills where he used to play with the Pistons. Dennis Rodman is here at the Palace of Auburn Hills tonight for Nitro. Ends up hitting Diamond Dallas Page over the head with a chair. Oh my goodness! That was Rodman!

And for me, became something that as I watched it, I went, "Wait a minute, who's doing the documentary on Rodman skipping that practice and becoming a professional wrestler?" That's what I wanted to know more about. So I should say that our friend Jason Herr, director of The Last Dance, also has sat in the chair you're sitting at. Right. Dennis Rodman skipping practice was not the reason I wanted to do this with you because, again, it already been done. Just for a moment, if I might have the floor.

By the time I finish this episode, at worst, what I'm going to present you, you will see this as the greatest sports marketing moment you've ever seen. Best, I believe I'm putting my thumb on the scale and forever affecting the GOAT debate. Who's the greatest basketball player of all time? You're never going to see it the same way ever again.

The unifying theory of modern American life now is that everything is pro wrestling. The presidency is wrestling. This thing has happened at WrestleMania 23. The US Department of Education is actually wrestling. CEO of World Wrestling Entertainment, Linda McMahon. Thank you. Even my beef with Bill Simmons, I am told, is wrestling.

Pablo Torre is here. We're beefing. Yeah. Big beef. What camera can I look into just to stress how angry I am? Such a beef. But with the Indiana Pacers now playing the Oklahoma City Thunder in the NBA Finals, what we wanted to do here was dive into what we believe to be the most underappreciated actual wrestling crossover in the history of sports.

And to do it, I needed to give a little bit of work to Neil Punsalan, the only comedy writer in the world who has made television shows with both Norm Macdonald and also Marshawn Lynch. But the most crucial point on Neil's resume, even more than the fact that Neil happens to be half Filipino, is the fact that he has watched more pro wrestling than I ever have and ever will, particularly over the last 25 years.

Because Neil's theory here about the 1998 NBA Finals turns out to not be fan fiction. This is going to be a story about sports business and billionaires and backroom deals and also chairs. Lots of chairs.

So where our paths diverge as Filipino Americans who remember like dial-up internet is that I went to grade school with lots of wrestling fans, but never really became one myself. I'm actually shocked by the degree to which professional wrestling is relevant to my line of work now. Yes, totally. Professional wrestling is like silent film.

You can turn off the audio and kind of follow along, and it plays everywhere. It plays at every age. It plays in every country. It is these men who are putting their lives and their well-being on the line to act out this soap opera. It's just insanity. I love it. Let's get ready to suck it! What is a suck it gesture if not Charlie Chaplin?

Can I go in a little bit into the history of wrestling here? I know so little about it, so please. Let me tell you a little bit about it. Pro wrestling used to be in regional factions. So there would be a Memphis team, there'd be a Georgia team. And all of the different little sort of families were spread out across the country. Coming up next on Superstation WTBS, it's exciting championship wrestling from Georgia.

Vince McMahon buys the World Wrestling Federation from his father. Indeed, it's the dawning of a new era. And this magnificent building, but yet an ending of another era.

and then decides, like Michael Corleone from The Godfather, to roll up all of the factions and dominates the pro wrestling landscape for a decade plus. Thank you. It is indeed a pleasure to be associated with WTBS, and we promise to bring you the greatest in professional wrestling entertainment in the world today. We will have this week, as a matter of fact, exclusive footage on a matchup involving the Iron Sheik, who hails from Tehran, Iran. I am from Tehran, Iran. Ten thousand miles... Then from there,

The man who claims to have the most impressive physique in all of professional wrestling, Jesse "The Body" Ventura. The most beautiful body in professional wrestling. And I got something to talk about everywhere I've been going. So in other words, he rolls up these teams and makes a league.

That's exactly right. One of the companies Vince buys is Georgia Championship Wrestling. There's a proviso in their contract that says the matches have to be recorded in Ted Turner's studio. Vince McMahon does not want to have to do that. He does not want that overhead. So Ted Turner as in Turner Sports? Correct. By the way... Billionaire. When it comes to the basketball interweaving here, that's the boss of all of the stuff we know with inside the NBA. That's right. So...

Vince doesn't want to pay that money, so he ends up selling the time slot back to Ted Turner. Ted Turner then takes that time slot and fills it with WCW World Championship Wrestling. World Championship Wrestling has always been one of our most popular programs.

The Braves are becoming a winning team in baseball. CNN is the leader in world's news and information. And now WCW is about to dominate the globe in professional wrestling. So the guy, the billionaire who owns CNN, owns Turner Sports, all that stuff, he starts his own rival league. That's right. 88, he starts that league. Double.

In 95, they premiered a television show called WCW Nitro. Get it 100% live and ringside. Two hours of WCW Monday Nitro.

Huge moment in professional wrestling. Live television. That's a big, gigantic part of this. 100% live. And it becomes a head-to-head feud with WWF's Monday Night Raw. But WWF is bigger. Better. And better than ever on USA. It's called the Monday Night War.

It's kind of like as if two Monday night footballs were competing. Yes, perfect. And so I'm envisioning, right, Vince McMahon as one commissioner. Right. Who is his rival counterpart at WCW? A legend in the game. An absolute legend. Hall of Famer. His name is Eric Bischoff. My name is Eric Bischoff. I live in Cody, Wyoming. And in 1998, that was a minute ago, I was president of World Championship Wrestling Association.

He was a janitor at an animal hospital. He actually got a sales job at WCW to start and then ended up getting bumped up to be on camera because the announcer that WCW had got arrested. Welcome back to TBS. I'm Eric Bischoff, and this is a WCW magazine. We could spend, and others have...

multi-part docu-series level time on any individual person in the story. We're just like glossing over and Vince McMahon's here. Right. And again, the context here is that the WWF was the Corleone family. They dominated the space for a decade plus. WCW using the live broadcast and adult themes.

And doing the suckets and like all that sort of pushing the envelope stuff. That's all Bischoff. Bischoff does that. WWF had stayed out of that water forever on purpose. Bischoff does it. WCW gets the ratings lead from WWF and holds it for 83 straight weeks.

We had to convince our existing television partners, which was TBS and TNT at the time. Nobody within that community that we were doing business with really looked at WCW as a competitor to WWE. They were so far ahead of us, we were in afterthought. And I needed to change that perception within Madison Avenue, the advertising world, which is why I brought in Hulk Hogan.

Hulk Hogan films mean mega profits at the box office and on video. I'm writing Hulk Hogan for media attention. And this summer, Hulk Hogan stars in the major theatrical release, Mr. Nanny. The agencies...

all of a sudden started looking at us differently because we had what they believed to be the biggest star in wrestling at the time. World Championship Wrestling presents Horkamania 94, the World Tour. And in 96, Bischoff gets Hogan to turn heel. Even I had to reckon with this. The New World Order... The t-shirts. ...was black and white. Yes. Like villains. And they're...

big thing in a pay-per-view world was what? Hogan turns heel at a pay-per-view event called Bash at the Beach. Battle lines have been drawn for the war that will be heard around the world. It's WCW's Bash at the Beach. So WCW, 83 straight weeks, they've got control of professional wrestling.

That forces the WWF to also go live and usher in their Attitude Era. That's Stone Cold. That's The Rock. They go adult-themed as well. First time in their company's history they start doing that. And with the power of Vince and WWE, the brand, and all of the wrestlers, they come back against WCW. But Eric Bischoff has an ace up his sleeve. I got a text message saying,

from hulk hogan saying hey call me asap 9-1-1 and he rarely ever ever did that um so i before i even got into the hotel got on my cell phone and called hulk and he said hey i just hung up with dennis rodman and he really wants to get into wrestling he wants to get involved wwf at the time had already pitched him i think uh shane mcmahon had reached out to dennis

But Dennis wanted to work with Hulk. He didn't want to just work in wrestling. He wanted to work in wrestling with Hulk. And since Hulk was at WCW, that's where I got tagged in. So Dennis is here. And as I imagine it, this is a real top flight wrestling free agent.

100%. Rodman dates Madonna in 94. He wears the wedding dress in 96. He kicks the cameraman in 97. So when does Dennis Rodman become serious about his other job? Beginning in 97. Rodman is out promoting Double Team, which is his movie with Jean-Claude Van Damme. Oh, I remember that vividly. He goes out to promote and ends up recording a promo with Hulk Hogan announcing that he's joining NWO. We get it.

So the two timelines here. Per wrestling, on the one hand, the NBA and the Chicago Bulls on the other, they had just won their second straight title. That's exactly right. And Dennis Rodman, in the other parallel timeline of wrestling, is...

What's he doing? Rodman appears in the 97th Bash at the Beach, and it is an unmitigated success. Huge success for the company. They immediately want to run it back, a lot like the Bulls do. They want to run it back and have Rodman join them for the 98th Bash at the Beach. Okay. Here we are, 98th.

But now, WCW, what are they planning to do, given that Dennis Rodman is trying to also sell this upcoming event? So strangely, Eric Bischoff turns to his wacky neighbor, Diamond Dallas Page. So, and DDP, for those uninitiated. Okay, okay. Do you know DDP?

I know a couple of things about this man. Yeah. Including the fact that when it comes to silent film hand gestures, he's got an all-timer. What a phenomenal move by Diamond Dallas Page. Powerbomb cut up by Page. I didn't know. Diamond Cutter. I don't believe it.

The diamond cutter, a iconic hand gesture that he did with it. He sort of puts his hands, his two hands together. Thumb and index finger. Thumb and index fingers touching to create that diamond between his two hands. He points it at the camera and then goes, bang! His blonde curls. Yes, those curls, those long curls. I mean, look. Covered in sweat. You're clearly psyched.

When I call Diamond Dallas Page, Mr. Page, first off, thank you so much for doing this. It is an honor, gigantic fan. My pleasure, bro. Which is to say, you proceed to do some real investigative journalism. I'm shocked that you've let the fox in the hen house and allowed me to waste so much of your time with this, but I'm so thrilled. Diamond Dallas Page tells me the best story about how he met Carl Malone. I'd seen Carl on The Tonight Show.

You know, I heard him talk about, like, I'm not a WWF fan. I'm a WCW fan. I heard him say, you know, those guys are my favorites. And I was like, boy, that was cool of him to say. Then I was doing a signing in Houston, and they said, do you want to go see the Houston Rockets game? I was like, who are they playing? He said, they're playing the Jazz. I was like, awesome. Yeah, I'm a Malone. I'm more of a fan of players as opposed to teams. So they were up like 25. So Carl's on the bench.

And it's me, one of my best friends. His name is Ross. And it's at a timeout, and Carl's looking up in the stands, and then he just throws up the diamond cutter sign. And Ross loses his mind. He's like, oh, my God, oh, my God. He's reaching for his camera. But by the time he gets the camera up, he's sitting down and the quarter's on. And he says, oh, my God, you got to get him to do that again. And I said, bro...

I don't know him. He goes, he knows you. So afterwards, Carl and Seth, we got to the next break and I pointed, you know, we're only like 20 rows up, so we're not that far from. And I go, boom. And I put my arms like, hey, you know, and he's like, threw it up again. So we got a picture of that.

But then one of the guys came up to us for the end of the game and said, hey, Carl, love you guys to come backstage. So he got passes for me and my boys. And then we went back there. And at that point, someone walks up and goes, hey, Carl's outside. So I walk outside. I'm like, hey, man, he gave me a big hug. And we talked for about 10 minutes. And I said to him, if you ever want to do anything, you got my number. Call me and let me know.

So what I'm learning from your, you know, make-a-wish interview, Neil, is that Karl Malone loves pro wrestling just like you. That's right. Diamond Dallas Page has said on the record, Karl Malone did not dream of becoming a basketball player. He dreamed of becoming a professional wrestler. He's from a small town, Louisiana, born on a farm, youngest of nine children.

He watched all those small regional wrestling encampments that I talked about earlier. Mom would drive them four hours on I-20 to the Sportatorium in Dallas to watch professional wrestling. Huge fan. And I reiterate, another character worthy of another separate investigation. That's right. I don't even have time to get into Karl Malone's actual rap sheet. Right. I don't. DDP and Karl Malone hang out at the 98 All-Star Game.

And then throughout the back half of the season, DDP is going to Karl Malone's house. Which is? It's like DDP sort of compared it to like a giant Cabela's. You know, that like humongous outdoor store and the taxidermy everywhere. He shot and killed everything. He had the biggest elk, the biggest moose. He had a bear that was 12 feet tall. He said it was glorious and every like eight-year-old boy's dream to have a house like that.

And so now we're in the Western Conference Finals. That's right. In 1998. Utah Jazz, Los Angeles Lakers. It's a huge moment. And DDP is watching this Western Conference Finals live and gets a huge idea.

They were playing the last game against L.A., and they were about to sweep them 4-0. And that's with Shaq. It was a pretty big deal. But it's number 3-0 at the time, and I just started thinking to myself, I'm going to call him and see what he thinks of this. So I called him up, and I said, listen, I know you've always wanted to be a wrestler. That was your goal as a kid. I said...

You know, Rodman's coming in. So Hogan's going to tag with him again. I said, what if it was Dennis Rodman and Hulk Hogan against Diamond Dallas Page and Karl Malone? He went, ooh. I said, you got any beef with Rodman? He said, honestly? He said, no. He said, you know, most people don't know this. Back in the day, when you came in to the NBA, there was summer camp.

And I don't care what contract you came in with, you roomed with another guy. And my roommate was Robin. And he said, I thought he was, you know, a very nice guy and very down to earth. He goes, I don't know who this guy is wearing the dresses now. He said, but that guy that I know, he's a good dude. And I would have no problem with it. He said, well...

Let me talk Derek Bischoff about it. Let me see where this goes. So just to, again, connect the parallel tracks here for a second. So Carmelo in the NBA is so comfortable up 3-0 over Shaq in the Lakers in the Western Conference Finals.

that he is making a side deal for another job that is going to be, I mean, the Bash at the Beach is coming up in July. That's right. That's weeks after the NBA finals. The Utah Jazz owner, as the sort of contract gets more and more real, as the opportunity becomes concrete,

The Utah Jazz owner basically turns to Carl and says, please don't get hurt. Don't get hurt. That is from a wrestling podcast in 2020, which he joined by phone between alligator hunts. Alligator, like chomp chomp, like big teeth, long head, dinosaurs, you know, them things. Alligator, yeah. Naturally. I've always said, if I ever had the opportunity to wrestle...

I'm going to do it. My opportunity just happened to come to an NBA Finals when we put the deal together. And what do you get paid if you're Dennis Rodman or Karl Malone to moonlight as a pro wrestler? They share an agent. That agent told me that Dennis is making at least a million dollars and Karl Malone's right there. That's a workable number for Eric Bischoff. He's got that in the budget. But that is a ton of money to put all into just talent.

Everybody buried the idea. M. Bichon's spending way too much money. He's spending money like a drug sailor. He's blowing all Ted Turner's money. And here's what I'm thinking. And this is why being in the middle of the NBA season was so important to me and why I was willing to take the $2 million risk that I did. First of all, I knew how much a full-page ad costs.

In USA Today, inside the sports page, I knew exactly how much that cost because I purchased them. It was so much that I figured if I could get enough media coverage, free media, if I could tap into the sports media, particularly morning drives and a little bit of coverage in print, I couldn't buy $2 million worth of press and get nearly what I got.

That was my rationale. It was just a marketing decision. That's kind of like influencer math. Totally. Like Eric Bischoff running WCW is saying, hey, I got two million bucks from Ted Turner to spend. I'm putting it all on my two stars. That's right. And they're going to use their organic marketing. That's exactly right. Their platforms that they have elsewhere to sell this thing. That platform just happened to be the 1998 NBA playoffs. Yeah.

I wanted as much drama, emotion, and camera time isolated on Carl and Dennis as I could possibly get for free. When we were talking about, well, maybe, you know, if at this night show we could get Carl and Dennis here, then maybe we could set up this confrontation in the parking lot.

So we were talking about ideas like that that we could do on our show. Somehow the conversation turned into, yeah, what if we could figure out a way to do something like that during an NBA game?

Because it's one thing to do a stunt or an angle for our own audience, but what if we can do one for that audience to make our story even more exciting? And it's somehow just kind of a joke. And then it started getting a little more serious. I'm using their playoffs as a wrestling promotional stunt. It could be the end of my career.

I can't ask for permission, so I'm going to have to bank on forgiveness. I can probably pull this off. Part of the calculus behind this decision is Bischoff going, if I can get these two guys to hate each other on camera and feed his match, become the promotion for his pay-per-view days after the NBA Finals is over, then it all makes sense.

How do you do that? How do you get that into the NBA finals? You need two willing accomplices. And what if I said to you, these willing accomplices happen to be two lifelong wrestling fans. Guys that grew up with each other, roomed with each other. Who share the same agent. Share the same agent.

It wasn't all Machiavellian and a sinister way behind the scenes trying to figure this out. It wasn't that. It was just like, hey, if by chance you guys have an opportunity to kind of get in each other's face and make sure the cameras are around when you do, that would be awesome. I'm not asking you to do it. That's not it. Don't put it down on paper. Don't make a note to yourself. Just say it. It happens.

This is all lined up for these two guys to bleed this into the 1998 NBA Finals. Once we kind of said, hey, if you can get away with it, it doesn't f*** up the game. Boom.

Just to step back, though, for a second, Neil, because you're talking about the most famous finals of my lifetime, which I do vividly remember. Of course. The 98 finals. You're telling me that they're turning it into actual pro wrestling in ways that I and the world never fully appreciated. That's exactly right. And the proof is in the pudding, Pablo. We're about to watch the 98 finals together. It's going to blow your mind.

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So now I kind of feel like there's a trial happening of some kind. You're an attorney, you're bringing a case. And what I have learned from you already, what I found out is that the NBA Finals allegedly have been used as this marketing scheme for the 98 bash at the beach involving Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone, who have been in cahoots with Eric Bischoff, head of WCW, to effectively get some free promo in front of 72 million people. That's right.

watching this thing. We mentioned Rodman earlier skipping practice to go to be in WCW Nitro early on.

That is presented as an isolated event. Oh, what a wild card Dennis Rodman is. He skips practice during games three and four of the NBA Finals to go be a professional wrestler for a night. That's just the beginning. That's where the whole thing starts. It goes so deep, you won't believe it. The WCW, World Championship Wrestling, successfully co-ops and infiltrates the 1998 NBA Finals, and Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone are both complicit.

So you are alleging, even more explicitly, that the integrity of the '98 finals was actually compromised. Both of these men are working. Truly, we're gonna watch these clips, and I believe by the end of it, you will 100% agree with me. These men are both working. They're putting on a professional wrestling promo. Which is to say they are working as NBA players while doing a work. Your Honor?

I have some exhibits. So I think this is where we just got to speed run through my childhood a bit. Right. Because it's June '98, June 3rd.

Game one, I remember this. Utah wins at home by three points. That's exactly right. Game two, Chicago wins by five. Chicago comes into Salt Lake City, weary or not, and gets out with a split. So they're heading back to Chicago with the split. It's a series of tied 1-1. But game three...

It's total humiliation for the Utah Jazz. The Bulls win by 42. Blown out. 42, right? I'm looking at the stats. So the Jazz have an NBA Finals record low 54 points, which is humiliating. The next day after that blowout, Rodman basically goes, well, I'm feeling pretty good. I'm going to head out of here and go up to Auburn Hills to be in WCW Nitro. I just love the way you threw Malone around like a diss track. I love it.

So this is him skipping the practice as depicted briefly in the last dance. The entire media focuses on how Rodman could possibly leave and skip NBA practice. Phil Jackson's telling the media that Rodman is gone. No, he's only taking your focus away from the finals, not ours. Yeah.

Yeah, he had been fined a combined $20,000 by the NBA and the Bulls. And Rodman comes back in game four the next day and probably has his best game of the final. What the hell, you know, this is all about putting your balls on the line and shoot the basketball, you know. So I did it. I think it's just stupid because all the things that have been happening to me the last couple of days.

Dennis Rodman is, I mean, based on his performance in game four, is actually, to his credit, saying, look, I'm basically performing at 100%. They don't get to 100% when I'm on the court. Rodman is, in effect, doing those two jobs at once. And I think the context here is important to remember. The Bulls are now up 3-1.

I believe the Bulls think they're going to win the title. In some of their minds, I'm pretty sure that, you know, they think they should be swept by now, you know, four games to zero. And I also think that Utah believes they're not going to win the title. I think my concern is people don't start making plans for summer already. Which would allow both Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone to go, why don't we start working on this professional wrestling thing that we both love?

So now the two timelines have converged. They've crashed into each other at the 98 finals. And I do recall in my mind's eye, as I'm 12 years old, that it is Bob Costas taking us to Game 5. And if it all ends tonight, he will leave with that rarest of athletic distinctions. He will leave without ever having relinquished his position as the greatest player in the game.

Now, I've asserted that WCW has co-opted and infiltrated the NBA Finals. This is the proof. Your Honor, may I present to you Exhibit A. They swing it over to Harper. He misses off the baseline, and Morris takes the rebound.

Malone and Rodman get tangled up. As Rodman and Malone were entangled. Malone sort of gooses Dennis Rodman, picks him up by his shorts, throws him out of bounds. Rodman tries to get past him, and Malone brazenly trips him here. But Neil, we both know '90s basketball was different. They were built different. It's physical. We've seen stuff like that before. You're right. However, may I present to you Exhibit B, 60 seconds later.

The breakout from Karl Malone. He dunks it here on Rodman, and watch this. Bang! You'll see it here on the replay. I don't know if that's a technical foul. However, the referees right now are trying to say, hey, we got Malone and Rodman right there. We're not going to let it get out of hand.

And that's the point. Karl Malone knows the camera is on me after I score. And he gets the broadcast talking about this feud between these two guys. That's the whole point. They're up to something. It's exactly what Bischoff wanted.

It is funny that the Jazz do win that game. Yes. Right? They win game five, so they're down three to two, which means the series isn't over. And you'd think, because of that, you'd think that those two guys might go, well, maybe we should turn down the pro wrestling promo work, but it's exactly the opposite. They turn it up during game six. I have a feeling there's another clip. Your Honor, Exhibit C. Exhibit C.

You watch Malone and Rodman battling under the boards. This is like a virtual recreation of the Game 5 clip you just saw. Ron Harper again misses the shot on the baseline. Malone and Rodman battle for the rebound. And this time, it's Rodman who trips Malone. I think they're starting to understand the formula that when we get tied up, the cameras will be on us. And if we were to...

seed this rivalry, to promote this match, it would be in one of these tie-ups, one of these moments that can be camera time for the two of us to mix it up. It does seem that tripping is in their moveset. And that's the foundation. It's about to pick up steam, and it does so with Exhibit D ass slaps. Watch the vibe play here between Malone and Rodman. A sign of respect, actually, it appeared to me. Okay. Well, Bob Costas...

Voice of journalistic color commentary seems to be unconvinced. This is sportsmanship to Mr. Costas. Bob Costas is falling for it. He's falling for it in that moment. And it's the reason why I had to bring in an expert witness. I'd like to call to the stand. Wait, who are you now bringing into our courtroom? Former Chicago Bull three-time NBA champion Bill Wennington.

Let me be the first to congratulate you on the 1998 NBA championship. Congratulations on winning that. Well, thank you very much. It was a lot of fun. And, you know, since I left the Bulls, they haven't won another championship. I took him this theory. I showed him these clips. I needed to get his take on this as an eyewitness. I have a couple pointed questions.

Let's show those butt-slapping clips. A sign of respect, actually, it appeared to me. Now, do you think they're showing a sign of respect? Do you think they're screwing with each other? Is Bob Costas getting played? I think Bob Costas is just trying to be proper. But also, they're both smart enough to understand that they're not going to get thrown out of the game or technically they're not going to have a fight, an all-out brawl.

So for those not watching on YouTube, which you really should be at this point, Bill Wennington has an incredible handlebar mustache. He looks like a pro wrestler. But to me, right? Like it's hard to discern Rodman being a wrestler from Rodman just being Rodman. And I turned the screws on Bill for that reason. Do you believe that is professional wrestling bleeding into the 1998 NBA finals game six? I want to say yes, but I want to say no. I think he's playing along the fact that, you know what? Hey,

I'm not going to let you out show me. I mean, they're both smart businessmen and it's just playing into it a little bit more, but you got to play into it and not lose focus. For them, it's marketing and it helped them out for, you know, for lack of a better word, a big payday in July. So it was free advertising.

He is admitting he knows this is marketing for their professional wrestling match. This is a guy who plays for the Bulls, is at this game telling me he wants to say yes. The only reason he also wants to say no is because I'm radioactive. This idea is going to tear apart NBA fandom. But the idea that this is dispositively wrestling. Right.

I mean, again, we're watching basketball and imputing motive, sir. May I present to you Exhibit E. Now, you'll watch here. Malone gets the ball in the post, wheels and scores. Seems like a normal basketball play until... What is that? What is that? What is that, Pablo? Okay, I admittedly did not remember...

He's throwing up the diamond cutter. The diamond cutter in the finals during the game. And this is game six. The Jazz don't have control of this game yet. Again, for those not watching, you got to. But that also feels like it could just be him, you know, I don't know, making like an O or something with his hands. Perhaps it's just a one-time thing. Exhibit F, play it. 19 points.

Malone, this is the very next play. Malone tries to answer and can and he has 20. There it is again. Pablo, it's the very next play. They feed Malone in the post again. He wheels, hits the shot and throws it again because he's thinking, if you didn't catch it the first time, I need to do it again. It's a concerted effort to make sure that wrestling is in the NBA finals. Okay. So game recognized game, Neil.

I did not know you'd have A, B, C, D, E, F, yeah, six exhibits escalating to a level of proof that I must say this has been persuasive so far. Pablo, I've not even gotten to the biggest one or my star witness. How many more exhibits are there?

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So, Neil, where are we? This is the big one. Again, just to set the table. Game six, 98 finals. And again, in 1998, there's like 15 things on television. 30 plus million people all watching this game. It was a simpler time. Yes. Game six, this is, you know, considered one of the great moments of Michael Jordan's career. This is the big moment. This is the moment that I remember as a kid. I'll never see it the same way again.

Exhibit G, the entanglement. You remember this place. Here they are, they're getting tied up. This is infamous. Yes! When people talk about NBA Finals moments where players get heated, they reference this moment! Seeing this with your previous six exhibits does make this hit different. Wait until you see the replay, Pablo.

Why Malone, regrettably, are scheduled to wrestle in one of those bogus events next month. Why Malone wants to lower himself to that is anyone's guess. And Rodman apparently wants to start the wrestling now. When I was a kid and I watched that play, I was like, oh my God, these guys hate each other. Which is exactly what Bischoff wanted, so I'd buy the pay-per-view. And I can also just tell how disappointed the voice of Gravitas, Bob Gustis, is as he sits courtside. Which is why I had to make another call.

Is Pablo in on this or it's just the two of us? Just the two of us for now. This is me and Bob Costas in 2025. What do you remember about that moment? How do you see that moment now? Has it changed at all? Well, there's a backstory there. It used to be the shock grew out of the art. The shock grew out of Marvin Gaye and sexual healing, but that was art. The shock grew out of Elvis. Oh, man.

The shot grew out of George Carlin and Richard Pryor, but they were brilliant and they were doing social commentary. But don't take my word for it. Ask the president. I'm meant to president. We in trouble. Now we were living in a schlock celebrity culture where the shot was the only thing.

There was no content of value there. And that's what I saw as Dennis Rodman's celebrity, a kind of dopey Jerry Springer world, Kardashian world celebrity. And I said that many times, parenthetically, even during games. But I always gave him full credit. His tired freak show continues, but on the court, he brings unique talents. Not only as a

a unique player, but I had heard even then that he was a gentle soul, that he was generous, that he was kind to those he came across. And subsequently, Dennis and I have had conversations, and I'm sure that if we had an opportunity to sit down and have dinner together, we'd find a lot of common ground. I don't dislike Dennis. I dislike that part of the culture, which now is so far down the road, there's no getting back.

But I disliked that aspect. And I also disliked the fact that wrestling, even then, and this was before my interview with Vince McMahon on HBO. You want to let me finish here for a second, pal?

Shut your mouth and let me answer the question, all right? I'll be happy to answer. But even then I could see that it had moved away from the kind of good-natured wrestling that I liked as a kid and toward that sort of attitude era, that sort of crass, it's no longer tongue-in-cheek, it's no longer good-natured. So I'm thinking, why in the world would Karl Malone, not that Karl Malone is necessarily a paragon of virtue, but why would he want to get involved in that? So this wrestling match

was pending between Rodman and Malone. And it's with that backdrop that I just laid out for you that they become entangled. And it looked to me like that entanglement

It wasn't just a natural outcome of what can happen in a basketball game. They were trying to prolong it and kind of emphasize it because it drew attention to what was upcoming from which they both would profit. Now, in retrospect, I said they got to call a flagrant here. They have to call a flagrant here.

So probably I overstated my objection in that narrow instance. But my overall objection, I stand by. 27 years later, I stand by. After the entanglement, the game broadcast, NBC cuts away. But The Last Dance had extra footage. Malone and Rodman start slapping each other's asses again. I tell you what, I love what I'm seeing, the battle between these two guys.

But watch Rodman here. Watch Rodman's reaction. Oh, this is a different... Look at him. Ooh! He's acting. He's pouring it on. Okay, so now I know that there are so many more ass laughs than I had anticipated. These men are guilty, Pablo. He's popping his hip. He has his elbow at a triangle. He is a cartoon character. That's right. Gesturing unsubtly about his ass having been slapped by Karl Malone.

These two men are guilty. They're guilty of promoting professional wrestling in one of the most iconic NBA finals ever, and Bob Costas isn't buying it anymore. Well, that clip captures what I was just about to say. I knew after they untangled from each other, I knew that there was no real animosity because they patted each other on the butt. You could tell it was all fake.

But here's the thing. Why does that low-grade fakery find a place in something that is the highest grade of legitimate sports drama?

But just to put the finest possible point on this, Neil, what you are alleging here is that Carmelone was not giving 100% effort to win a game in the NBA Finals. I think the proof is in the pudding, but I also took this to Bob Costas. I just believe wholeheartedly that Carmelone is not 100% dedicated to that basketball game. He is working a professional wrestling angle.

My point is guys can be aware, guys can give a nod, guys can have a laugh without being lost in another land. There's no evidence here to me that either Rodman or Malone shortchanged the task at hand. But there is evidence that they were definitely trying to promote this, whatever you want to call it, in my view, trashy endeavor.

Does that take away from game six at all to you? Does it take away from that moment at all to you? Well, that moment I think was discordant, but the overall thing is so great. It's like saying, does the hair out of place mean that Cindy Crawford is a beautiful? I don't think so. So, no.

As someone old enough to remember what Cindy Crawford is, I find Mr. Costas' argument also kind of persuasive, Neil. Let's go with that for just a moment. You believe Karl Malone is locked in? That's what you're saying? You believe that he's not promoting wrestling, he's completely locked in in this game? Jordan with 43. Karl Malone looks super locked in in this moment, Pablo. They ran that play a couple times prior. And Dennis and Malone have been fighting all game.

And Carl just totally forgot that I was on the weak side. Malone is doubled. They swat at it and steal it. He's asleep at the wheel, Pablo. Carl Malone's asleep at the wheel. You are saying that this play, again, famous in The Last Dance and in life, Michael Jordan slapping the ball away in the play before he hits the game winner over Brian Russell. Jordan, open. Chicago with the lead.

You're really connecting. A hundred percent? I guess they're going to Malone. Is he asleep at the wheel? Although he's been having a little bit of a struggle this morning. Looks that way to me. So your closing argument is Michael Jordan's closing shot. That's not the case. My closing argument is Exhibit H. You remember Jordan holding up the six fingers, but do you remember this? Ha ha ha ha ha!

Dennis Rodman is promoting. They are working this. He's doing the D-Generation X suck it. It's funny how as a fan, you remember Jordan doing this, and you don't remember that, but the second you see it, you go, of course, all these pieces fit. The puzzle piece is fit. I need to take a break. Can we go to break? And by the way, the prosecution rests. ♪♪

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I have followed you through the NBA finals, which you've changed. Thank you. I mean, truly have changed my understanding of. Thank you. But the thing that they were promoting, just to close the loop here, right? Right.

How was the 98 bash at the beach? Not good. Not great. The battle began on the court. A battle that was never settled. Now the time has come. We started in Utah. We're finishing in San Diego. The war is on. Yeah, baby, Rosalind's going to take you out. NWO style, baby. It's Hogan and Rotman versus DDP and Malone at WCWNWO Bash at the Beach.

Listen, most professional wrestling matches with non-professional wrestlers, there's a ceiling there. It can't be super great. Rodman spat on DDP. Wow. That was a class act.

That was like a moment. And Malone is legitimately picking dudes up and slamming them on the ground. He's a beast. He's a monster. He is very strong. So it was what it was. It rated very well. I believe it was the second highest rated WCW pay-per-view in the company's history. I mean, call him alone. Just like hulking out, by the way, wearing, I think those are jeans or maybe just like jeans. I can't tell if those are jean pattern spandex tights or actual jeans, but he's shirtless and

He at least looks the part. As the story goes, Rodman didn't want to take his shirt off because Karl Malone looked like a Greek god. Well, this makes sense as well, actually, now that I review this footage in retrospect. But yeah, I guess it was worth it. Malone thinking they had won the match has been denied here. And now he's mad. And then Dennis Rodman goes off to film the movie Simon Says with Dane Cook.

So just, just journalistically speaking, I should say the following. We hear a public Tori finds out, did try to contact Dennis Rodman, did try to contact Carl Malone. The bulls in the jazz could not find either of them. Rodman has a booking agency as an apparel line. They didn't respond. Carl Malone has these car dealerships in Arkansas and Utah. Nothing from them. Their shared former agent that you spoke to whom we brought to you earlier. Nothing.

And we also reached out to Hulk Hogan through his agent and attorney, and everybody is just in the wind, as they say. That's right. Clearly, there was not a desire to engage with you, Neil, as I have realized what I've done here, which is to say, what did you find out today?

What I found out is that to me, undoubtedly, without question, those two men are working a professional wrestling angle during the 1998 NBA Finals. And I want to say, to be clear, I am not telling anyone to strike it from the record books. I do believe it needs to be asterisked. I am a big believer. You're calling for an asterisk. Yes. You're calling for an ass play asterisk. Yes. If we're trying to decide something, I mentioned the greatest of all time debate. You're trying to asterisk.

Michael Jordan. This is what we're doing here. If you are trying to decide greatness, then you have to be detailed. You have to be willing to use an asterisk. I'm doing it right here. If the main tenet to the idea that Michael Jordan is the greatest player ever rests on the numbers of him having six championships, you go at that number. I am not the biggest Laker fan. I am the best Laker fan. Oh, Lord.

And if my job is to put LeBron James, who is a Laker, as the greatest of all time, I'm going at title number six by saying that title has been delegitimized. I cannot stress enough how you have impugned your own objective credibility just as I was ready to co-sign the case you have brought before this court.

I am inclined to think that actually you've been disbarred. But I also feel like there should be some higher authority than me that gets to proclaim that officially. I did take this theory to Bob Costas.

If the center of that argument is that Michael Jordan won six titles, then I need to go at that number. And what I'm saying is that Michael Jordan's sixth title is being delegitimized by the fact that Karl Malone is professional wrestling and not playing NBA basketball. He's not concentrating on the finals. Delegitimize that sixth title. Jordan's at five. LeBron's at four. If he gets one more, he's tied. He's got the scoring title. LeBron James is the greatest player of all time. Your thoughts?

I think that's one of the most inane arguments I've ever heard. Neil, thank you for your work on this episode. It's been a pleasure. May God have mercy on your soul.

Pablo Torre Finds Out is produced by Walter Averoma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McRae, Rachel Miller Howard, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, Chris Tuminello, and Juliet Warren. Our studio engineering by RG Systems, our sound design by NGW Post, our theme song, as always, is by John Bravo. And we will talk to you next time.

Thank you.