Curiosity Killed the Adage
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<context>好奇心杀死了格言 早起的鸟儿有虫吃。因果法则。黎明前总是最黑暗的。我们将这些智慧的金句——这些格言——深藏在心中。但最近我们开始思考：它们真的是真的吗？客观上、科学上、可证明地是真的吗？所以我们挑选了一些，开始进行事实核查。我们与心理学家、神经科学家、跑步者、一位房地产经纪人、滑板者、一位鸟类学家、一位社会学家和一位天体物理学家等人交谈，了解到这些看似简单、明确的关于我们和我们世界的陈述，实际上蕴含着美丽而复杂的宇宙，以及比我们想象中更深刻、更奇特的智慧。特别感谢来自Upright Citizens Brigade的Pamela D’Arc、Daniela Murcillo、Amanda Breen、Akmal Tajihan、Patrick Keene、Stephanie Leschek和Alexandria Iona，来自We Run Uptown的教练Reph和Patty，来自Noname马拉松训练项目的Julia Lucas和Coffey。我们有一些激动人心的消息！在“Zoozve”这一集里，Radiolab命名了它的第一个准月球，现在轮到你了！Radiolab与国际天文学联合会合作，发起了一场全球命名比赛，为地球的一个准月球命名。这是你在天空中留下印记的机会。现在到九月，提交你的名字创意，或者在这里投票你最喜欢的名字：https://radiolab.org/moonEPISODE CREDITS：报道 - Alex Neason、Simon Adler、Sindhu Gnanasambandan、Annie McEwen、Maria Paz Gutierrez和W. Harry Fortuna制作 - Simon Adler、Matt Kielty、Annie McEwen、Maria Paz Gutierrez和Sindhu Gnanasambandan原创音乐和声音设计由Jeremy Bloom贡献事实核查由Emily Krieger和Diane A. Kelly进行编辑 - Pat Walters和Alex Neason我们的新闻通讯每周三发布。它包括短文、推荐和其他与节目互动的详细信息。注册（https://radiolab.org/newsletter）！Radiolab由像你这样的听众支持。通过成为The Lab的会员（https://members.radiolab.org/）来支持Radiolab。关注我们的Instagram、Twitter和Facebook @radiolab，并通过电子邮件与我们分享你的想法，邮箱是[email protected]。Radiolab科学节目领导支持由Gordon和Betty Moore基金会、Science Sandbox（Simons基金会倡议）和John Templeton基金会提供。Radiolab的基础支持由Alfred P. Sloan基金会提供。 </context> <raw_text>0 谢谢。

对。

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Radio Lab。来自WNYC。嘿，这是Radio Lab。我是Latif Nasser。好的。今天，我将与我们的编辑一起开始。我的旁边有音量。Alex Neeson。酷。好的。曾几何时，那是夏天。好的。好的。很难记住。

现在？现在很难记住。是的。好的，所以在夏天，正如您所知，我是一名跑步者。真正的跑步者。一个真正的跑步者。就像，您跑马拉松。所以在这一年里，我决定休息一年，不跑马拉松。嗯哼。相反，我...

决定挑战一英里。好的。我打算尝试打破我的个人记录。因此，作为实现这一目标的一部分，去年夏天，每个星期二，我都会像时钟一样拖着自己走出公寓，走向城市，好的，准备，开始。

从我家跑出，大约一英里多一点，去哈莱姆的Riverbank State Park。好的，我得上车。去这个地方。嘿。你好。

与我的跑步团队的一些人见面。我很好。你呢？这要看晚上，但基本上是10到15个人聚在一起进行这些田径训练。作为一个显然不是跑步者的人，您更喜欢这样吗？您喜欢和人一起跑步而不是独自跑步吗？是的。我的意思是，我这样做是因为我不能信任自己独自去做。跑步真的很难。

有其他人在我身边一起跑步让我感觉，我感觉我像是一个团队。这让我想起了高中时的田径队，您为自己和其他队员而出现，大家一起做艰难的事情。而且速度更快。感觉更好。这就是完成它的方式。所以...

在这一天，天气超级热。正值夏季的正中间。我们的教练Ref告诉我们，我们要做400米。跑道的长度是400米。这意味着我们要在整个跑道上进行一次长跑。我们将做很多次。大家都发出了一声集体叹息。就像，好吧。

好的。总是想要跑步。不要让跑步控制你，对吧？所以我们上了跑道。我们热身。我们拉伸。我们做训练。稍微放松一下。然后我们站在起跑线。开始。立刻，从起点开始，我在抽动我的腿，摆动我的手臂，整个跑道上都在冲刺。好的。

哦，天哪。我越过终点线。稍微休息一下，喝口水，然后我又在冲刺。哦，天哪。

我又跑了一圈，休息，跑，休息，跑，休息。你还有多少圈？六圈。那天，我喘不过气来。快点，快点，快点。我的心跳得非常快。感觉像是要从胸口跳出来。周围的其他人似乎都在适应训练。我不知道，感觉我就是无法调整过来。所有这些非常，所有这些不安全感涌上心头。

从童年时代涌现出来。我突然意识到我看起来很挣扎，周围有很多人都在看着我挣扎。所以我只想消失。我希望跑道上的其他人也消失。我感觉我在精神上正在 spiraling，因为

这一切的意义，出现在这些团体训练中的原因，最初我开始和团队一起跑步的原因就是

就是为了避免这个时刻。还有一句格言，痛苦爱公司，这一直是我运动生涯的哲学。如果你正在经历痛苦，而你身边有其他人也在经历同样的痛苦，那就让我们每个人都更有能力，负担减轻，对吧？

而且你最终可以度过难关。而我在这次特别痛苦的跑道训练中，负担并没有减轻。实际上感觉更重。训练结束后，我记得走回家， obsessing about this adage。等我回到公寓时，几天后，我

我真的开始想，难道我一直都错了吗？也许这件事根本不是真的。它真的是真的吗？我开始思考，好的，我必须弄清楚。我必须弄清楚

从事实的角度来看，痛苦爱公司，谁可以给我打电话？我可以读什么？我可以做什么来获得真实的细节，真正的琐碎，以便在另一端，我可以站起来宣称痛苦爱公司是真的，或者它根本就不是。你需要一个答案。是的，是的，是的。一个明确的答案。♪

所以，Alex突然想要开始的这个探索

我们开始在节目中讨论，关于生活中听到的这些事情。好吧，您知道他们怎么说，这只是吱吱作响的奇怪声音。您在电影、电视中听到它们。闲置的手是魔鬼的工坊。也许来自朋友、父母。好吧，早起的鸟儿有虫吃。行动胜于言辞。这些小说法，这些格言。什么东西上升就必须下降，Forkle。它们应该是这些小智慧，这些关于世界运作的真实事实。

我们开始想，它们真的是真的吗？我们能否将Alex的使命扩展到其他格言，深入研究，看看是否有办法客观地判断一个格言是否真实？我们能否以某种科学、严谨、几乎荒谬的方式对它们进行测试，以尝试获得答案？所以...

我们挑选了一些格言，工作人员基本上进行了事实核查。首先是……第一条。痛苦爱公司。好的，酷。所以，我做的第一件事……对，对，是的。哦，来了。……是拉上制作人Simon Adler，然后我在谷歌上输入痛苦爱公司研究。令我惊讶和高兴的是……好的。……我找到了。

有东西弹出来了。我们正在进行。我们准备好摇滚了。这篇论文，发表于2021年，痛苦爱公司，实验调查。Kate，我们能请您自我介绍一下吗？当然。是的，我叫Kate Hassett。我是一名环境经济学家，我对

使我们做我们所做的事情的因素感兴趣，可以这么说。巧合的是……我知道您在说什么。她也是一名跑步者。谈到长跑的特定痛苦时……

有时会是这样的。但我们将远离跑步。好的。因为，您知道，格言应该是普遍的。它应该在多种情况下都是真实的。是的。几年前，Kate设立了一系列实验。在第一个实验中，我们想知道，人们是否真的相信这一点？人们是否真的相信，像我一样，这个格言是真的？

真的。与他人一起痛苦会让痛苦变得稍微不那么痛苦。所以我们请100人完成一项调查。说。想象一下。哦，荣耀。有人。我就是喜欢我的纽约市生活方式。住在一栋公寓楼里。但我最喜欢的就是。还有。我的公园景观。

他们有一个绿色公园的景观。是的，从我的窗户可以看到公园的美景。我可以看到浣熊在玩耍，鸽子在空中飞翔，栖息在树上。但调查显示，这个人，实际上几乎所有住在这栋楼里的人，都将失去他们的公园景观。因为一个建设项目。像是对面街道上要建一条大高速公路。真糟糕。所以调查问，想象一下……

想象一下，您就像房东，您必须去告诉其中一位租户，他们将失去他们的视野。如果您想最小化这个人的失望，他们的痛苦，您会如何通知他们？您会选择A，去敲他们的门？哦，托尼。有什么我可以为您做的，托尼？嘿，格雷戈里，我很抱歉给你带来坏消息。只是简单地告诉他们。他们将在对面街道上进行建设项目。他们将建一条高速公路。这意味着您将失去公园的视野。他们将失去公园的视野。不是我公园的视野。

托尼，我为我的公园视野而活。所以这是选项A。选项B……

格雷戈里，我是托尼。一切都一样。托尼。您告诉他们，看看。外面有一条大高速公路。建设将阻挡公园的视野。但这次您告诉他们。它将阻挡每个人的公园视野，整个建筑。您不是唯一一个会受到影响的人。没有人能再看到公园。您的邻居也会失去这个视野。所以如果您想让这个人感觉好一些，您会选择哪个？选项A还是选项B？B。必须是B。

是的，正是我所说的。当Kate发放调查时，几乎70%的人表示他们会选择B。所以，嗯，但仍然有30%的人没有选择，难道是社会病态者吗？我知道，对吧。老实说，我不知道为什么您不选择B。

我肯定会是70%中的一员。但Kate说，您知道，70%是一个很大的数字。我们认为这意味着人们总体上相信痛苦确实爱公司。它可以，您知道，减轻痛苦。然而，仅仅因为您相信某件事对其他人来说是真的，并不意味着它对您来说也是真的。

所以他们进行了第二个实验。我们试图使其尽可能与第一个实验相似。一切基本上都是一样的。公寓里有一个人有视野。但这次，调查说，“把自己放在将要失去视野的人的位置上。”

然后其中一组人被告知，您将失去公园的视野，而第二组被告知……为了您的信息，您建筑中85%的其他人也将失去他们的公园视野。然后我们问他们……两个组，无论是独自还是在公司中……请评估您在这种情况下预期会有多失望。所以当他们查看结果时……

他们发现两组人都很痛苦。无论他们的邻居是否会痛苦，大家都很痛苦。我本来不会想到这一点。是的。我们没有发现痛苦确实爱公司的证据。他们发现人们相信痛苦爱公司，但在实践中似乎并不是真的。

然而，他们确实发现了强有力的证据，虽然他们并没有真正寻找这个证据，我认为这更有趣，那就是幸福厌恶公司。这到底是什么意思？好的，所以他们发现，如果您是幸运的人，如果您从窗户看到公园的美景，根据调查结果，

您不希望其他人也拥有它。哇。您想成为那个幸运的金票赢家，如果没有其他人拥有，它会让它变得更好。是的。这太病态了。我们病态了。对吧？我们病态了。这说明了我们什么？我不喜欢这个。我真的不喜欢这个。我听到你说的。这是一个艰难的发现，但我们是社会生物。

我认为这只是我们被编程的方式，您知道，其他人发生的事情，您知道，这并不是无关紧要的。我意识到Kate所说的是，我们总是在跟踪我们拥有的东西，跟踪其他人拥有的东西。这涉及到公平、嫉妒和公正的问题。但我认为我实际上在问一个更简单的问题，那就是，当您与一群人一起跑步时，

每个人都在一起痛苦，这种我们在一起痛苦的事实对我们有什么影响？这有帮助吗？Svenja，您好。嗨。很高兴和您交谈。是的，确实如此。当我找到Svenja时，我感觉我真的开始得到了答案。

Svenja Wolf，我是佛罗里达州立大学塔拉哈西的运动心理学助理教授，我研究与运动和其他表现领域中的群体和情感有关的任何事情。太棒了。美丽。美丽，美丽。我想，我对您专业的看法以及作为跑步者的看法感到好奇。痛苦爱公司吗？是的。有一大批研究表明，这真的很有趣。

这取决于。这就是答案。并不是每种痛苦都爱每种公司。这就是关键所在。她说，由恐惧引起的痛苦。因为我害怕，因为情况危险。在这种情况下，您可能确实想和其他人呆在一起。让它变得不那么危险。所以我想要陪伴。如果我感到悲伤……她说，悲伤时，您通常会感到失落。所以您想要陪伴。重新与他人联系，以便再次获得安全感。

但她说的一个情感让我感到震惊的是……羞耻。羞耻。这是我不希望其他人目睹的事情。所以这是我不想要陪伴的事情。我认为对我来说，那天在跑道上……

我觉得我有一部分感受到了这一点。就像，我感觉有点不在状态。就像，我做得不好。我感觉慢。就像，我在拖延。您真的陷入了那种兔子洞，觉得我不够好。我很可怜。然后我们最不想要的就是其他人目睹这一切。但即使在我们想要独处的情况下，我们想要从他人那里撤回，分享情感最终使我们在个体上感觉更好。

Svenja说，这已经在骑固定自行车的群体中进行了研究，在刚刚输掉大比赛的团队中。无论环境如何，当人们一起感到痛苦时，它有助于他们表现得更好，就像他们在自行车上踏得更快。

而且它也帮助他们感觉更好。这至少是研究所表明的。因此，对我来说，这种共鸣的方式是，如果我处于痛苦状态，我渴望陪伴。我想要的就是，我想要其他人来安慰我。我希望有人能联系我。有时我没有精力去联系，但我想要那种被认可和验证的感觉，以及有人关心我。

所以也许我可以重新表述一下，痛苦可以创造陪伴。你感觉怎么样？我感觉还好。我们可以慢下来，因为我肯定跑得太快了。是的，是的，我肯定会慢下来。我感觉我在确保不妨碍任何人。不，你很好。是的，我感觉还好。今早醒来准备时，我感觉很好。太好了。

我们得休息一下，但这给你足够的时间去看水壶煮沸，等马儿，等鞋子掉落。我们马上回来。今年，在Radiolab和我们的家庭友好衍生节目《Terrestrials》中，我们花了很多时间在天空中。我们命名了准月球。我们思考了被送入太空的诗歌。总的来说，我们在2024年惊叹于环绕我们星球的广阔。

但随着这一年的结束，我们回到了地球。我们有一系列故事在为您准备，但我们需要您的帮助来维持这一切。我们是一个公共广播节目。因此，我们依赖于听众的慷慨，也就是您，来维持这个节目。

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第二条，闲置的思想是魔鬼的工坊。

我总是听到它是闲置的手或魔鬼的工坊。是的，闲置的手，闲置的思想。人们以各种方式说它。我们就用闲置的思想吧。好的。我选择这个是因为……等等，等等，先告诉大家你是谁。哦，是的。好的。我是Sindhu Dhyanasamadham。我是这里的制作人。我选择这个是因为……

因为这对我来说一直感觉很真实。嗯。怎么说呢？好吧，我的意思是，当然，思想从来没有真正的闲置。但当我想到一个没有专注于任何事情的思想时，就像，它只是有点，您知道，四处游荡，这就是我所认为的闲置思想。我尽量避免这种思想。嗯。部分原因是我只是觉得不生产就感到内疚。一样。但当我只是坐着闲置时。

所有这些想法开始涌入。有些是有趣或有帮助的。其他的可能真的很糟糕。

就像魔鬼在里面试图让我痛苦。是的。因此，许多宗教著作往往将游荡的思想视为不太可取的东西。这是心理学教授Kalina Krista Hadzileva。我研究自发的思想以及人们的思维方式。

当我打电话询问这个格言时，他们说这深深植根于我们的文化中。这种工业资本主义的工作环境。人们有一种感觉，存在正确的方式和错误的方式。当您游荡时，您就偏离了正确的方式。这有时是我们如何看待自己的思想的时间任务。如果我专注于某件事，那是好的。我现在在任务中吗？还是我没有在任务中？如果我没有在任务中，那么我就是在游荡。这是坏事。

但Kalina说，这并不一定是看待思想游荡的丰富方式。这是错误的思维方式。嗯。为什么？首先，您知道我描述的那种魔鬼般的部分，我的思想可以开始 obsess 和反复思考事情？Kalina说，那些东西实际上不再是思想游荡。不是，不。对我来说，那是思想游荡的对立面。因为当您开始 obsess 时……

您回到了某种任务上。就像您试图解决某个自己设定的难题。这就是人们如何陷入心理困境，对吧？但Kalina说，当思想真正游荡时，就像当它没有任何任务时，这根本不是魔鬼的工坊。实际上，这是一个发生美丽事情的地方，就像创造的行为。哇。

它始于大脑深处，这些神经元发射的爆发称为尖波涟漪。尖波涟漪。您听说过这些吗？哇，从未听说过。没有，从未。好的，让我告诉你，Latif。是的，涟漪。我喜欢这个声音。

好的。所以我们在实验室里。我们在实验室里。所以我去见了世界上这些涟漪的专家之一。我是Yuri Buzhaki。我是纽约大学的神经科学教授。他带我参观了他的实验室，房间里充满了电线、迷宫和Froot Loops的盒子。老鼠和小鼠喜欢Froot Loops。这是实验的一部分，还是因为您想要……

给他们一些好东西。您想与他们建立良好的关系。您想成为朋友。它们是宠物。您的同事。并且他在实验室中做的事情之一是，他倾听这些动物的脑部，特别是海马体。他这样做的方式是，他将这些小电极插入其中，以便他可以看到或真正听到这些尖波涟漪。好的。假设他拿一只老鼠，把它放进一个迷宫。

早起的鸟儿有虫吃。因果法则。黎明前总是最黑暗的。我们将这些智慧的金句——这些格言——深深地铭刻在心中。但最近我们开始思考：它们真的是真的吗？像，客观上，科学上，可以证明的真理吗？所以我们挑选了一些，开始进行事实核查。我们与心理学家、神经科学家、跑步者、房地产代理、滑板者、鸟类学家、社会学家和天体物理学家等人交谈，了解到这些看似简单、明确的关于我们和我们世界的陈述，实际上蕴含着美丽而复杂的宇宙，以及比我们想象中更深刻、更奇特的智慧。特别感谢Pamela D’Arc、Daniela Murcillo、Amanda Breen、Akmal Tajihan、Patrick Keene、Stephanie Leschek和来自Upright Citizens Brigade的Alexandria Iona、We Run Uptown、Circa ‘95的教练Reph和Patty、Noname马拉松训练项目的Julia Lucas和Coffey。我们有一些激动人心的消息！在“Zoozve”这一集里，Radiolab命名了它的第一个准月亮，现在轮到你了！Radiolab与国际天文学联合会合作，发起了一项全球命名比赛，为地球的一个准月亮命名。这是你在天空中留下印记的机会。现在到九月提交你的名字创意，或者在这里投票你最喜欢的名字：https://radiolab.org/moonEPISODE CREDITS：报道 - Alex Neason、Simon Adler、Sindhu Gnanasambandan、Annie McEwen、Maria Paz Gutierrez和W. Harry Fortuna制作 - Simon Adler、Matt Kielty、Annie McEwen、Maria Paz Gutierrez和Sindhu Gnanasambandan原创音乐和声音设计由Jeremy Bloom贡献事实核查由Emily Krieger和Diane A. Kelly进行编辑 - Pat Walters和Alex Neason我们的新闻通讯每周三发布。它包括短文、推荐和其他与节目互动的详细信息。注册（https://radiolab.org/newsletter）！Radiolab由像你这样的听众支持。今天通过成为The Lab的会员（https://members.radiolab.org/）来支持Radiolab。在Instagram、Twitter和Facebook上关注我们的节目@radiolab，并通过电子邮件与我们分享你的想法[email protected]。Radiolab科学节目领导支持由Gordon和Betty Moore基金会、Science Sandbox（西蒙斯基金会倡议）和John Templeton基金会提供。Radiolab的基础支持由Alfred P. Sloan基金会提供。 </context> <raw_text>0 And maybe we can like play a song to represent just like the various neurons firing here and there. He like moves through and, you know, experiences like a turn over here, like runs straight down this path. Like, you know, I don't know what else happens in a maze. Like whatever, looking up at the researcher maybe. Yeah. And maybe you're smelling something and it's behind this wall, but I can't get behind the wall. Exactly. It's nice. And Rat makes it through the maze. He gets to the end and stops.

And, you know, he's just sort of like chilling, eating his food, drinking some water. His brain is just sort of like humming around, neurons firing here and there. When all of a sudden, there's this burst of activity, like tens of thousands of neurons fire all at once in this coordinated explosion. Extraordinary powerful synchrony. Then it happens again. Then again. Then again.

And again. These explosions of activity, these are sharp wave ripples. And they're the biggest, most synchronized firing of neurons that happen in our brain, short of like a seizure. Wow. And Yuri says like when you look at them closely, you see... These are snippets.

that are compressed versions of learned information. They're actually just little sections of what the lab rat just experienced getting replayed, but super fast, something like 10 to 20 times faster. It's like...

It's like instant replay? About like a little... But it's like sped up instant replay. Exactly, exactly. And not the whole thing, but like little parts of it, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Highlights. Highlights reel. Highlight reel. And these sharp wave ripples, Yuri says, they're basically the very beginning of memories being formed. They select.

which information will be remembered and which will go to the trashcan. And he's not like consciously experiencing this. Oh, so this is even, this is below consciousness. This is all subconscious. Wow. And when the rat goes to sleep that night, those ripples that played earlier, they just keep rippling.

And this is where the memory is like actually getting made, where it consolidates into something that lasts. Well, how is it possible that I experienced something once and I will remember it forever? And the answer is that you experienced it consciously once, but the rest of the brain will experience snippets of it during the sharp air ripples a thousand times every single night.

Wow. Yeah. Huh. There's more. The next day, we can stay with our rat, our little lab rat. Wakes back up and, you know, a postdoc carries him back to the same maze, you know. And now when he's just sitting there and again, just like sort of resting before starting the run. Guess what we see?

Oh, the same, the same, the song playing not as replay, but as preplay. Yeah, exactly. A sharp wave ripple. And actually his lab has found that like the direction of the ripple coincides with whether it's like a memory or like a planning ripple. When the selection is backward, we are talking about memory. When the selection is forward...

We are talking about planning. No, that's crazy. Yeah, yeah. Wow, that's so literal. So all the stuff that he described happens in rats. It happens in us too. And you know that experience when you can't seem to solve a problem or like there's this word you really want, but like it's just not, it's like on the tip of your tongue, you don't have it. And then you just sort of like walk away from it.

And all of a sudden, like, bam, it's there? Right. This is the time that sharp waves come very handy. And you disengage, and then a couple of sharp waves occur in your brain. They prime the circuitry for you, and then you can recall it. Like, you've left the task, but these, like, little, you know, subconscious neural things are just working for you. Yeah. I also asked him how these sharp wave ripples connect to, like, mind-wandering thoughts. Out of seemingly nowhere, he said,

I have this like memory of my mom cooking a specific meal or something like that. Is that connected at all to this sharp wave ripple activity? I never measured it. I don't know, but I bet yes. So sharp wave ripples are good candidates for that. And actually like there was a Nature paper earlier this year that made this exact connection that these like sharp wave ripples seem to be the brain mechanism underpinning those like thoughts that seemingly pop out of nowhere. Huh.

So how often do these ripples happen? Yeah, so he says that they can happen once every 10 seconds or even once a second. But the one time they definitely do not happen is like when your mind is focused on something. If you are listening to me now, I guarantee you don't have a single sharp wave. These ripples only happen, Yuri says, when we are

idling, when we are not focusing on something, when we are not attending. It's almost like a digestion, right? So you go around acquiring experiences. If you don't have a digestion system, you're not going to extract anything from all these experiences. Right? So in other words, without idling... You are nobody. You're a zombie.

Okay, so where does this all leave us with our adage? I'm realizing how off I was about it. Idling is pretty important. It picks our memories, solidifies our memories, imagines new things. So yeah, I guess it is a workshop. It's just not for the devil. It's like a workshop where we make...

our sense of our world and who we are. Yeah, beautiful. Let that mind of yours idle for a bit. We will be right back.

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Hello, welcome back. This is Radiolab. I'm Latif Nasser. We have already covered two adages today. One was mostly true. One was definitely not. And so for this third and final adage, we decided to take on one that it seems just has to be true. Number three, what goes up must come down.

And fact-checking this one, we have... Okay, here we go. Here we go. Producers Annie McEwen. It's irrefutable. And Maria Paz Gutierrez. It's just a part of our lives. It's basically a law of physics. Right. I mean, for example... Okay, ready? If you take an egg... One, two, three. And you throw it up... Okay. Down it comes. Definitely came down. Yeah. Feels very inevitable. Yeah. Came down confirmed. But as we stood there looking down at our egg on the ground...

We thought, wait a minute. From a journalistic fact-checking perspective, all this proves is that when an egg goes up, it must come down. In this case, there were 1.8 seconds between the up and the down. Okay. And we started to wonder, like, what if we could find something that doesn't come down, like, right away? Like, maybe there are things out there in the world that test this adage. And if we can find those things, is there a chance, a teeny tiny chance, that we could disprove it?

Okay, well, what kind of things? Well, we went outside to get inspired. And after a bit of haphazard research into things that go up in which we chased pigeons, you chased them, I chased them.

Hello. We're here to look for balloons. Got some helium balloons. Uh-huh. And then... They're all dudes with their big pants. Annie even tried to talk to some skateboarders. Excuse us. Can we talk to you for a second? It's about jumping. Excuse us. Excuse us. Will you talk to us? Can we ask you a question? You guys don't want to talk to us?

No? Okay. But then, it's a really pretty sunny day. As we were looking up at the sky, fluffy clouds, we thought, clouds. It looks like The Simpsons. It does look like The Simpsons. They're basically just water that is up. And so, we wondered, how long does it take for water to leave the ground, rise up into the air, become a fluffy white cloud, and then come back down? It's raining.

We looked it up, and the average is about 10 days. Really? That's the lifespan of a cloud? Yeah. I never thought of that, the lifespan of a cloud. That actually doesn't seem that long. Well, but there are a bunch of things that stay up in the air longer than clouds, like small particles of dust blown by the wind into the sky can stay up there hanging out in the atmosphere forever.

for around 20 days. - Hmm. - And then there are these spiders that do this thing called ballooning, where they shoot out these long threads from their butts, and using the wind and the Earth's electric field, they lift off the ground and fly through the air for hundreds of miles, traveling across cities, across deserts, across oceans.

And we don't really know how long they stay up there, but we do know they can only go without eating for about 25 days. So they do have to eventually come down to land on top of your head. Thank you. But okay, so max 25 days between up and down? No lot of no-no. Because then there's this bird.

This little bird that can do something so amazing, it is just ridiculous. It is ridiculous. It is. So here's the thing about swifts. This is natural history author Scott Wiedensahl, who told us about the common swift. They are the most aerial of birds. They're blackish brown, could fit in the palm of your hand, have wings shaped like a boomerang, and they do basically everything in the air. They eat nothing but flying insects. It's

thought that the two hemispheres of their brain take turns sleeping so they can sleep while they fly? They are the only group of birds that mate on the wing. Wait, it has sex in the air?

the air? How does it do that? Are they both flying? Oh, yeah. I mean, pictures on the internet saying they're just stacked on each other in the air. They're just stacked. Stacked. Yeah. Okay. And if they could figure out a way to carry an egg and incubate it on the wing, I'm sure they would do it. Oh, because you can't lay an egg while you're doing it. Exactly. That would be a mistake. Yes. And when they migrate to Africa, from the moment they leave their breeding grounds in Central Europe...

all the way south to Africa through the entirety of the winter in Africa and all the way back on their spring migration, they never touch ground. These birds lift up off the ground and don't come down again for 10 months of the year. 10 months of the year? Yes, it flies. It flies for 10 straight months. They only come to the ground for the shortest period of time that they possibly can manage. They have stretched the thread connecting them to the ground

Absolutely to the breaking point. And these birds, because they don't often need them, have very tiny legs and feet. So tiny that... They can't walk. All they can do is cling. Wait, they can't walk at all? No. And it made us think, like, just like that fish that long ago pulled itself out of the ocean and became a creature of land, maybe the common swift is on its way to becoming a creature purely of the sky. Yeah.

But then we thought, "What about us?" "Like, we have astronauts." "Astronauts, unlike eggs or clouds or birds, they have rockets. Rockets that have taken them farther than any other species has gone before." And then, once they're up there,

They can just stay up there. You have a really cool big space station that you can fly around in. Just totally floating, defying our adage with... I'm going to get Tim to spin me around. Somersaults. Olympic caliber flip technique. Backflips. Then he can come right back up again. They are truly up. Like Superman. And theoretically, if they had enough food and supplies, they could stay up there forever. Never coming down again.

So, in conclusion, we have found something that disproves the adage and therefore the adage is incorrect. Okay. We're done here. Yes. At least that's what we thought.

Until we talked to Dr. Michelle Thaller. I am an astronomer and a science communicator. Who told us that, well, see, although it might look like the astronauts are up there floating. No. They're not. They're not? Absolutely not, no. They're not flying. They're not weightless. They're not in zero-g. But instead, up there in the space station. The reason you can put your pen right beside you, it'll just float when you let go of it. The pen and you are falling towards the Earth. Absolutely.

At exactly the same rate. What?

They're falling. They're falling? Yes. Every second of every day they're up there. Their whole space containment, their capsule, their space station, everything's falling. They are freely falling towards the Earth. Oh, my God. I mean, if you've ever been on like a really great roller coaster that drops, you know, that kind of thing, I mean, that is what they feel. They feel like they're falling. Ugh, that's nauseating. Oh, yeah. Some people get very sick. Yes.

But then why don't they fall straight down and just smack into the Earth? Well, Michelle says that these astronauts in the space station, they're not falling like how an egg falls when I throw it. One, two, three. Up straight up in the air.

But more like if I took that egg and just threw it as hard as I could. As it's traveling, it is technically falling. It's being pulled down towards Earth, but it's also zooming forward. And so it travels a certain distance before it inevitably comes down. Okay, now imagine the egg is a space station.

And it's just been thrown by rockets upwards and curving away from the Earth into the sky, going so fast, 17,500 miles an hour, and traveling so high and so far, about 200 miles up, that though they are falling, instead of hitting the Earth, the Earth curves away as you fall. And you actually kind of keep curving around the Earth. And so every second of every day that it's up there, it basically keeps missing the Earth.

Never landing. Forever coming down and around. And down and around. And down and around. This wonderful kind of stable path called an orbit.

But haven't we also shot things into space that did not go into orbit? Like we did this story on the Voyager probes, right? Like we literally shot them out of the whole solar system. Like can't you say that those are just going up and up and up? They're not falling. Well, actually, they are. Yes. According to Michelle, everything is in some way going down and around. The Earth is always falling towards the sun? Yes.

You know, the sun is falling towards the center of the galaxy, which is a big black hole. We go around the center of the galaxy at about half a million miles an hour.

So right now you are freely falling towards a giant black hole at half a million miles an hour. You personally, Maria Paz. You personally. And what's the galaxy falling towards? The galaxy is also freely falling. You got it. The Milky Way galaxy is freely falling towards the middle of a galactic cluster at more than a million miles an hour. Don't you see it? We're always falling. Nothing is holding you up.

I just feel like throwing up. Yeah, me too. I really, really feel like throwing up. Whoa. So is this one true or no? Well, um...

I think, yes, it is. But it's different than what we originally thought. Like when we started out, we thought down was like falling on the pavement like an egg or falling to earth as rain or landing on a branch like a bird. Things go up and then they must come down and then they're down. But what we found is that all that stuff that appears to be down isn't really down basically.

But it's actually in a perpetual state of coming down. So maybe it's not what goes up must come down, but really... Everything that is must come down forever. That sounds depressing. I don't know. I mean, like, I think it's really cool. Like, it's almost as if we're on this rock, but we're just like those astronauts. Woo! Woo!

floating and somersaulting and and like flying like Superman forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever necessity is the mother of invention yeah I guess so but let's think about all the things that were invented by accident

We're like, no one was even trying to invent shit that day. And they ended up making a new medication or discovering a new element or whatever. Big thanks to Chioki Ianson, who performed our voice of wisdom for this episode. Morgan Freeman was not available. If his voice sounds familiar, it's because he does the underwriting for NPR. I spend most of my life as a disembodied voice. Yeah, tell me about it.

This episode was reported and produced by Alex Neeson, Simon Adler, Matt Kilty, Sindhu Nyanasambudan, W. Harry Fortuna, Annie McEwen, and Maria Paz Gutierrez. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. What are you saying here? We need some space? It was edited by Alex Neeson and Pat Walters, fact-checked by Emily Krieger and Diane Kelly, and has original music and sound design by Jeremy Blue. Good things come to those who wait. This one I hate.

Awful things also come to those who wait.

So what are we doing here? What's happening? Special thanks to Pamela Dark, Daniela Murcillo, and Jonathan Schooler, as well as Amanda Breen, Akmal Tajahan, Patrick Keene, Stephanie Leschek, and Alexandria Iona from the Upright Citizens Brigade. To Alex's crew, We Run Uptown, and coaches Ref and Patty from Circa95, Julia Lucas and Coffee from the No Name Program, Diane Kelly, Hilly Bressler, Kim Ward-Dwang, and Tom Friedman.

I don't know that I would use any of these in my regular life. And of course, thank you for listening. I'm Latif Nasser. This is Radiolab. We'll be back soon with more stories, more questions, and if I'm being honest, questionable wisdom. But I can promise it'll be fact-checked. So until then.

Hey, I'm Lemon, and I'm from Richmond, Indiana. And here are the staff credits. Radio Lab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co-hosts. Dylan Keith is our director of sound design.

Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Pressler, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhu Nyanan Sambandan, Matt Kielty, Rebecca Lacks, Annie McEwen, Alex Neeson, Sara Khari, Sarah Sandback, Anissa Vitsa, Ariane Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster. Our fact-checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, and Natalie Middleton.

Hi, my name is Teresa. I'm calling from Colchester in Essex, UK. Leadership support for Radiolab science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, the Seymans Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. I'm Ira Flato, host of Science Friday.

For over 30 years, our team has been reporting high-quality news about science, technology, and medicine. News you won't get anywhere else. And now that political news is 24-7, our audience is turning to us to know about the really important stuff in their lives. Cancer, climate change, genetic engineering, childhood diseases. Our sponsors know the value of science and health news.

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