Madison McGhee | When closure is a myth and justice is hard won
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True Story Media. I could have seen everything and how my life would have unfolded because of this podcast. I probably would have been like, don't hit record. Just don't do it. Write it in your journal and call it a day.

So today I have Madison McGee with me, who, if you haven't listened to Ice Cold Case yet, you have to go listen. Brianna and I had the pleasure of coming down to see the launch. It was your first show of the Family Matters Tour. And you guys have 13 more cities that you're doing. I mean, this past weekend was so awesome.

It's just really, it was more fun than I even thought it was going to be. I was really nervous to do it. And I feel like they're just going to get better and better. How come you picked Tonya Harding to talk about? So I wanted to do kind of in that similar vein of like, no death, really, if I can help it. And like local. So I wanted to do sort of like a story that had a lot of lore that maybe had elements of it that people didn't know a lot about. So Tonya Harding is like,

One of my favorites. I love the movie I, Tonya. I obviously wasn't alive during the Olympics, but I just love her story and sort of the line between like supporting Tonya, supporting Nancy, the environment surrounding it. You know, I think we're all sort of products of our environment in a way. And I think if you had plopped Tonya Harding in a different situation,

at the exact same time her life could have ended up so differently. And so I just think it's like really interesting. I think a lot about sort of this like nature versus nurture element. One of my favorite documentaries is Three Perfect Strangers or Three Identical Strangers, which is about the triplets who are separated as like a science experiment and how they were actually separated

very similar to each other, but the way they were raised actually like really dictated the rest of their life. And biologically, they're the same. So it was just really interesting. And yeah, I think she's just a fascinating historical figure to me. I learned so many facts. I was alive during then. And there was so many things that I'm like, that's not what they like. They didn't

outright say it, but they implied a lot of things. And I had forgotten that Nancy also didn't grow up like upper class, which is how she presents. Right. And I think that's what, I mean, kind of going back to like

My dad's story, I think I'm just really sensitive to stories that are not the full thing shown and there's more to it or there's an element of a victim or something.

you know, the accused that they're not showing and sort of putting people in these boxes. I mean, the news is not reality TV. When you're casting a reality TV show, you've got, okay, we need the jock. We need the hot girl. We need the bartender. We need the party guy. But in news, you don't have to categorize people like that. You can just say who they were and how they were. And I think they kind of get caught up in

you know, the princess versus the punk element of that story instead of just saying, like, here's really the reality of this. And one was just much better at covering up what was going on in their life than the other. But that doesn't mean that, like, either of them should have really been in this position. And so I think that I also like telling stories like that where it's like you only saw so much of it. It's sort of like that, um,

iceberg meme where it's like you only saw this much of the story and there's actually this much going on. When I first decided to do it, all my friends in L.A. were like, really? You're going to do Tonya Harding? Everyone knows about Tonya Harding. And I was like, there is more to this story. I know that nobody knows. So it was exciting. Well, and if anyone's going to find it, it's going to be you.

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So it's interesting that you say that because it is so much like your dad's story where it isn't just like, I know some people are focused on, well, he was a drug dealer and

That's a fraction of who he was as a person. And I think people get hung up on what they think they know or what they assume about a person. And there's so much even just I mean, just obviously listening to your podcast, you

so much depth to him and the relationships in the family and you. I mean, you didn't find out until, you know, way later in life, the truth about how he died. And what was there a like moment that you decided that you just had to know?

Yeah. And it wasn't right away. I mean, I found out that my dad was murdered when I was 16 and he was killed when I was six. So you'd think sort of that would be the moment where it was like, oh, I, you know, my path was set for me and I just couldn't live without knowing. And that wasn't really the reality. It was this curiosity, but it sort of snowballed and it grew over time. And I think that helped fuel it in the way that it ended up happening.

Because I think that curiosity really festered for a long time that it made me angry and frustrated and curious and excited sort of all at the same time because it had been sitting for so long. And yeah, I think there was a moment.

I mean, there were little moments, obviously, like throughout my young adult life where it was like, I wish I knew or I wonder what I could do about this. But it was really during the pandemic when I think I had this combination of time and motivation and boredom. And that was like, OK, I could do this. I could really do this. And I was looking at other cases that had been solved through this.

or documentaries or TV shows. And it was like that moment where it's like, why not me? Why can't that happen for me? And why can't that happen for my dad? And lo and behold, there's lots of reasons why not me and why that can't happen to my dad. But at the time I was so naive in a great way where it was like, well, I could do that. And I tried.

I am trying. Did you have to regrieve his death? Like during that time when you were sort of, you know, because that's like the middle of your teens is not a time that is good to process sort of not only like having to grieve the loss of your father, but in a whole new way. And was that it just sounds kind of brutal to me.

Yeah, it was rough. I mean, my early adult life, like really 16 to like 27. I mean, even now I'm 29. I mean, I would say like 16 to now it's been rough. I mean, there were more rough years sort of in the beginning of that. I

was just such a basket case. I mean, I couldn't focus, but I couldn't place it. I mean, at the time, I'm in college in 2012 to 2015, right?

So it's like mental health is not a thing yet. Like I think people forget because it's like so prevalent now. Like I wasn't able to focus on schoolwork, but I could not pinpoint what was going on. I mean, my grades were slipping. I was like barely showing up to stuff. I was incredibly depressed. I was like laying in bed all the time. I had no friends. I was not able to show up as like a full person, but I couldn't place why. And I think that made it worse.

And even if I had tried, I don't think I would have ever put it back to like, and my dad was murdered and I don't know what happened. But I am sure that that was like a huge contributing factor to it because I had never processed it. I mean, I heard that information at a Buffalo Wild Wings and I got back in the car with my mom and we drove two hours and I went home and I probably was like on Facebook that night with my friends, just like back to normal, like nothing had happened. And so I think there are

was definitely this element of like it infiltrated my mental health in the worst ways for a really long time. And grieving that, I think, also happened over time as my curiosity grew because I can reflect on all these moments in my life where I was like, why was I doing that? I mean, a sign for me that I'm really depressed is like my clothes pile up. I like won't put my clothes away. And I had the top bunk in my sorority college room.

And my clothes were all the way, I could step on my clothes to get to my bed. And looking back, I'm like, oh, that was me like grieving because I just couldn't understand sort of what was going on. And it's just really crazy to look back on moments like that and think about

how that happened and why that happened. Cause I really didn't know at the time and no one around me obviously knew cause I wasn't talking about it. Um, and they all just thought I was like a weird girl. So, um, yeah, it, it was a really tough. So that's sort of what that looked like then. And then, um, you know, it just turned to like, it's always been laying in bed, I think, but now I just lay in bed and I really retreat. I'm home a lot. Um,

And I go through phases. It's weird. I'm like able to really like do a lot and make a lot of headway. And then I'll go through like moments where it's like I can't do anything for two weeks, three weeks. And it's crazy. I mean, I think a lot of people I know people who have kind of experienced what I've experienced and they're actually like on disability. They like get a check because they can't work. So the fact that I'm even able to like get up and sit at a computer is crazy. But yeah, I definitely go through moments where I'm like, I can't do anything.

Well, and you chose to sort of run headfirst into trying to solve the murder of your father. And the amount of stuff you've had to process and learn through this was sharing the story or continuing to share the story through the podcast itself.

Is it cathartic or does it overwhelm you sometimes? And I guess the answer can be both, right? Yeah. I think I've said this before, I don't know publicly, but I've definitely said it to friends and probably my therapist. I think doing this podcast was the best and worst thing I've ever done in my life. I had a great conversation with a friend a couple, maybe like a year and a half ago about

And she was like, so like lessons learned, like what would you do differently if you could go back with the podcast? And I was like, wow, if I could have seen everything and how my life would have unfolded because of this podcast, I probably would have been like, don't hit record. Just don't do it.

Write it in your journal and call it a day. But yeah, it's been hard. I mean, it's a wonderful thing what's come from it. And obviously you can't go back and change things. So the only way out is through. So I've made my peace with my decisions. But it has been so hard that, yeah, it's also like the worst thing I've ever done. Well, it's so vulnerable. I mean, it...

I've listened to everything you've released. And when I met you on Saturday, I feel like I know you. And obviously, you know, it's that same iceberg thing where I've only seen a fraction of your life and it's this story, but you get so connected. And when you share stories that are

the heart and your real life experiences, I think that there's a different sort of authenticity that comes out in that that is so prevalent in your show that it's, I mean, it's really hard. And I have said this publicly and to my therapist numerous times where I

When I started recording my show, I wasn't anticipating telling my story the way that it came out and getting as deep into myself and sharing so much of myself because I'm not a vulnerable person historically. And then I introduced myself to the world as this, you know, I...

People don't know I'm funny. They think I cry all the time. And, you know, and I know that you have some experience in that with like history and comedy. And then like this podcast, though, is just so human in the experience and how you tell your story. And I wonder, like for me, it was very cathartic. But also at the same time, there are moments where it's like I just...

I have to sit in bed and cry for a month because, you know, not only are you sharing like one part of your story, but it's really your vulnerability in how this has affected you and your family's life. And it's complicated. Oh, my God. Yeah. Everything to me in this stage of my life feels like a contradiction where it's like good and bad, hot and cold. It's just like everything feels like

Oh, I said this, but I conjured it to myself five minutes later because it's like everything just feels so sort of both at the same time. And it is cathartic in a way. And yeah, it's funny. I too feel like, you know, I don't get to showcase my personality a ton. And what's crazy is, yeah, when I first started...

I went to my first crime con and people were coming up going like, oh my God, I feel like I know you. And at that point, there's only nine episodes out. I mean, I really haven't put out a ton of stuff. And I couldn't stop going back to this funny moment I had when I first released the episodes. And my friends, some of my friends who have known me my entire life, I mean, they are my friends from home. I have known them since like kindergarten or at least like middle school. And a lot of them were like, we've listened to your podcast. We didn't know any of that about you.

And so for people who are like just listening, going, I feel like I know you. I'm like, there are people who have known me my whole life. This is such a small part of my life that like, it's funny that you feel like you know me from these nine episodes when like people who have known me my whole life

know so much more about me. This isn't my personality. This isn't, this isn't my defining thing. And I think that's why alternately this has become such a like heavy burden to carry because now it is like, I'm the dead dad girl. Like I, I went from being someone who's like a creative pursuing creative pursuits in LA, wanting to make movies and TV shows and be a writer and director. So like, oh yeah, you're the girl with the dead dad podcast.

And so that is like, okay, yeah, yeah, I guess. Yeah.

It's become this like identifier publicly, but you can't kind of help but like also now privately identify as that. And it infiltrates sort of your everyday stuff and how you make decisions and what you post. And I mean, I feel it's like this really interesting, my dad's birthday was two weeks ago and my dad is dead. Okay, my dad's dead.

And I felt this weird public pressure to like post on Instagram for my dad's birthday. My dad's never going to see that. He's dead. Like what? I feel like, oh, it's like on brand for me to post like happy birthday to my dad. And it's like,

What? That's insane. Like, who cares? He's never going to see it. Like, what am I putting this for? And so it's like weird because it also becomes kind of your own identity and your own personal identity. I obviously posted something because I wouldn't have been able to sleep that night if I did it because I now am putting that on myself. And it's like so weird and it's very trippy. But, you know, I relate to that so much. Hey, it's Brit. I wanted to take a minute to talk about quints.

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My aunt, who I am incredibly close with, I see her talk multiple times a day all the time. She listened to the podcast and she's like, I didn't know that. I didn't know that happened. You don't... I didn't think anyone was going to listen. Me either. So you're kind of like...

like, oh yeah, I can say this. No one cares. Like no one's going to hear this. So it doesn't matter. And that there's a little bit of security in that. And then of course, that's not what happened to you. Or to you. I mean, and that's the, like, it takes off. And then all of a sudden, but then all of a sudden there is this concept of maintaining that brand. I have a lot of

around dating and putting myself back out there. And it, I like, I don't know that I'm really ready, but I really want to, but now I feel like I should share how that goes. And like, I don't, I don't want to always be known as like, oh, you dated this guy that, you know, clearly I

was awful. And now I'm like, every guy, I'm like, if this turns out to be another one of those, like, am I an idiot? I'm not healed. And then I, same as you, like, I get into my head about it. And it's very complicated. I'm really glad that

It did get popular because so many women have reached out with their stories and they say really nice things like they feel like they've been seen or they can relate. I like that aspect of it, but it's also interesting.

There's a huge emotional weight to that as well. When everybody tells you, I'm sure you get a lot of dead dad stories. Oh, yes. I call it trauma dumping. Yeah. And I have nightmares about other people's stories. There's one story I heard.

this girl's dad went missing in like 1999. And I think about her and her dad all the time. They've never found him. I read every message. I read everything that I get. And it's heartbreaking to...

to know also sometimes they'll throw in like, you're probably not even going to read this. So I feel this like urgency to respond, but sometimes I just don't have the mental capacity or emotional capacity to respond. And it's very hard to...

figure out. I mean, I it would take me weeks to go through everything. And I wear it all. I mean, I'm like, I just am so impacted when people are coming up. I'm like, I know their name. I've heard their story. They follow me on Instagram. Now I see them all the time. It's like, oh, my God, it just wears on you because you just want to be able to help everyone. And it's I mean, that's like an endless task.

Michelle and Jake and I just talked a couple of weeks ago about secondary trauma to the people that are listening and telling the stories and how really impactful it is. Like trying to create a space where we can all share and relate and also not...

not create more damage, you know, because you empathize so deeply with these people. And it's so complicated. It is. It's really complicated because it's also like you want to help and you might be able to help one or two of them. But if you can't help everyone...

what does that say about you? And I think for me, I've sort of reconciled with the moving of the needle. And if I can help one person that gets it closer and if I can help two people, that's great. If

if I get so overwhelmed by not being able to help everyone that I help no one, that's not helpful either. But it's still tough because I'm, I've been on the other side and I'm like, I've been that person messaging a podcaster going, please talk about my dad. And so it's tough. It's tough. And I, it's like, again, one of those things I'm like, I wish I didn't know this feeling. And if I had never done this, I wouldn't even know. I'd just be living my life. And I,

And yeah, it's tough. Has your dad evolved as a person for you? Because you were so young. Because to me, he seems like such a just rich, charismatic, like human. And I wonder how much of that has evolved for you.

Yeah, I mean, he's definitely evolved for me because to me, he was like my dad of only like six, almost seven years. And so he's become so much more in my mind because I got to know who he was as a friend and who he was as a brother and who he was as an uncle and a cousin and everything.

you know, I got to know who he was as a recovering addict and what he was like, you know, working this NA program and showing up for other people in the program and helping them with housing and all these other things. And so I think that's been really interesting because I'm also fortunate in the sense that I'm getting to learn about my dad in ways that most people never get to learn about their parents. So, you know, I probably wouldn't if he were alive today, I wouldn't know a lot of that stuff. So I get to sort of

have a fuller picture of my dad as a human. And I think that's where sometimes my ability to compartmentalize makes this a little bit easier at times because sometimes I just look at him as like a person and not as my dad. And that makes it easy to be like, OK, I've

I've got this guy on my desk and he's a dad and he's a brother and he's a recovering addict and he's this and this and this. And he's all these things like, let's tell this story. And I'm able to like write an episode really fast and then go, OK, oh, yeah, that's my dad. And then that's when I like have the breakdown and I lay in bed and I do whatever. But I'm able to like think about him sort of in this silo for long enough that I can like pop out an episode and like get the words on the page and, you know.

Now it's a bit easier because I'm really focusing on, like, the investigation and the police work. And I get so angry about that that I'm able to, like, whip up an episode really fast before I'm able to, like, think about the fact that he was my dad. But, yeah, I mean, I'm definitely getting to know this, like, person, which is so interesting. I don't know if you've ever seen the show Griselda on...

on Netflix, but it's a beautiful show. It's about Griselda, this very big drug dealer. Pablo Escobar has a really famous quote where he's like, the only man I'm afraid of is a woman named Griselda. And she was just like this drug lord and she's a really impressive businesswoman. But she is equal parts protagonist and antagonist of this story because she's obviously dealing drugs and those drugs go on to

you know, kill people and ruin communities and families, but, and she's killing people too. But she's just as really, you know, you're rooting for her in a way because you're getting to know her as a person through this show. It's a scripted show, but it's about her life. Sofia Vergara plays her. It's really incredible. But I think that show was so illuminating to me because there were moments where you're like,

she's with her kids and she's being a mom and she, you can tell that she's doing all of this sort of as a means to make money to support her family and, and you're rooting for her. And then you kind of catch yourself and you're like, wait, why am I rooting for this woman? And I think that is my dad. You know, that is like the perfect way when I watched that, I was like,

this is exactly how I feel about my dad, where there's these moments where you're like, he's doing these really bad things that are like objectively bad. Like there is like right and wrong. He's crossed that line. He's wrong for sure. But he's also these other things. And it's just such a great,

sort of depiction of what it's like to sort of love and care for someone who's doing something so deeply wrong. And that's kind of how I feel about my dad. Both things can be true. Like, it doesn't have to just be one anymore. Like, I don't have to hate my mom because she was an addict. Like, I can love her and understand her and

And also be angry that, you know, that's the life that she chose. Like you can, it's both. Both things can be true. And it's really, I think a lot of people get stuck on that line of not being able to accept both as being true. Yeah, I think it's tough because we're not like,

well-equipped to think like that. We, like, don't have the emotional capacity to, like, have those thoughts. And I think the way, not to get too political, but the way that the world is turning is, like, really forcing us to choose a side and forcing us to say, okay, if you like X, you hate Y. And I think we're really, I just saw this, um,

article today. I'm not a, I don't listen to country music, but I saw this. There's a ton of articles just today. If you Google Morgan Wallen, basically these op-eds about how like, if you like Morgan Wallen, you like Trump music is kind of the op-ed. And there's this like a bunch of stuff about this. And I saw it only because that's not my algorithm. I saw it because my friend who

like one of the most liberal people I know likes Morgan Wallen and was basically like, this is so interesting to like read these like op-eds and these people have these opinions about this because it's very divisive and it's very, if you think this, you think this. And I think that's really interesting. I think that's how we're trained to think about life. So it's very hard then to see my dad as a victim of murder and go, oh,

Oh, but he was a drug dealer. Like, I don't know. If you listen to Morgan Wallen music, you voted for Trump. And it's that. You know, another example of that is the Luigi Mangione United Healthcare CEO situation. The weekend after that happened, Dave Chappelle, I think, or Chris Rock, a comedian who...

is very familiar with rough upbringings, hosted SNL, and talked about how...

he's just like anyone from the hood. Like he was a drug dealer who got shot in the street and the whole world stopped to like talk about this. And there was all of this stuff going on about it. But at the end of the day, he was just the United Healthcare CEO was just a guy who was selling drugs who got shot in the middle of the street. And it was crazy because I was like, oh yeah, that United Healthcare CEO is my dad. Because there's so much discourse now about like

whether or not he deserved to die, whether or not he deserved to get murdered. And I couldn't help but think, like, I have a lot of friends who think the same way I do politically and morally, who are like, yeah, that guy deserved to die. He got what was coming to him. And I couldn't help but be like, but that guy's my dad.

My dad was shot and killed and all of these people are saying the exact same things that they're saying about this white guy in New York about my dad. And I think our ability to kind of compartmentalize why things happen and the justification behind them is getting a little skewed because we aren't able to see the dynamic characteristics.

characters that we're talking about. You know, when people die, they're dead. I mean, I don't even really think about my dad as far as like in a sympathetic way right now and his feelings because he doesn't have any because he's dead. So when I think about, you know, this health care CEO, it's like, what about his kids? Like, sure, maybe you think he's dead.

He was doing bad things, but he left behind a family, a wife, children. And that is kind of the implication of murder is like what's left behind and the people who are there who have to kind of deal with it. And when you're thinking about whether or not someone deserves to be murdered, are you thinking about whether or not their kids deserve to deal with that? Because that's really the implication. Well, but it's so accurate with the concept of

I mean, theoretically, I don't think anybody deserves to die. But then you get into this gray area of not understanding or I think, like you said, in our current climate, not seeing life.

people for the whole breadth of the human that they are. And that it really, at the end of the day, most people just want to provide for themselves and their families. And some people's opportunities, that's their job. And it might be to deal drugs or, you know, I mean, it might be to do things that are shady, but the other side of dealing drugs is that there's a whole lot of people buying those drugs. And a lot of those people are

you know, they're across the board. We all qualify it based on our own experience, right? Like, oh, my dad was selling whatever drugs and he was a drug dealer.

But like, yeah, yeah, I did buy drugs in high school from so-and-so, but like that's different. And it's like, no, actually on paper, that's the same. Does that guy deserve to get shot in his house? And so, yeah, it's very interesting. And we throw all these qualifiers on things and obviously race plays a big role.

part in all of it. Um, and, and socioeconomic status. I mean, that's why, I mean, New York, they threw everything into finding Luigi Mangione because a white rich guy got killed in the street, but you know, over in Brooklyn, they're shooting black people all the time and they're not, you know, sending teams to a McDonald's in Pennsylvania to pick them up. But, um,

You know, it goes back to like there's so many inequalities there about how crimes get solved and how they're dealt with. But I think that also then infiltrates sort of our idea of right and wrong and the justification of it. And, you know, we are...

in a world right now where a lot of our thoughts are not, even though we want to think they are, they're not our own. We are, and not to put like, you know, a tinfoil hat on or anything, but we are a product of what we are seeing and that shapes our worldview and that shapes how we define right and wrong. And then our own lives sort of

depict like how we justify things. And I think that was part of the hurdle I faced with my dad's story was no one's going to relate to this. There are very few people who are going to listen to this true crime podcast where the demographic of listeners is predominantly white women and go, wow, isn't it so sad? I totally relate to my black dad getting murdered for dealing drugs. Like they're not going to get it. And so I had to really rework the

How I told the story to get people interested because it wasn't going to work if I was just talking about my dad, because that's not relatable to a lot of people because their lens doesn't allow for that. So, yeah. When when my sister died, the.

incompetence of the police department and what ended up happening through, I am going to air quotes the investigation around her death, including two ops autopsies that were conflicting and, and, and just sort of them not doing anything. They sort of made a decision and it,

It was so hard for us. And we spent so much time and energy and money trying to, you know, do the investigation essentially for the police. And it still didn't get us anywhere. A lot of people commented and there's a nasty little Reddit post on it that, you know, like we should have done more for my sister that we just let him get away. And, you

My sister's death was 20 years ago and at the time and for years and years after, like we did everything we could. And I think that there's this

you know, this was after people listened to me talk for two and a half hours. It's like, you don't know, you don't know the whole story. And I know how much of a struggle it's been for you dealing with the police on your dad's investigation. And just that sort of, for us, it just felt like this brick wall. Like it didn't matter how hard we knocked it or what we did. They were just like, nope, there's,

There's no answers. There's nothing we can do. This is just it. And- Well, isn't it funny that the public perception is you should be doing more, not the police whose literal job it is and their salaries pay for them to solve crime should be doing more. They're frustrated that you didn't do enough on your own time and your own dollar. And I think the way that people sort of treat COVID

co-victims of crime is really interesting to me and something that I really wasn't aware of until I threw my story out there. It's like people are frustrated that I haven't solved my dad's case. And I'm like, you do realize that's not my job, right? Like, you do know that that's not

I don't get paid $120,000 a year to solve murders. You do know that, right? Like, there are people, lots of them, who have salaries that you pay for with your tax dollars. And you're not mad at them for not solving the case. But like, yeah, feel free to like spend an hour and a half like writing me some letters about how mad you are that I can't solve a murder with no training, no education.

courts behind me. I can't subpoena people. I can't make someone talk to me if they don't want to. And yet, I've still found out all this stuff and I've still done all this stuff. And you're mad at me? That's their job. Well, and you have even said that

There's a lot of stuff you can't do unless they're with you, because it's not going to, you know, be admissible in court. So then if you don't have that, we had our own private investigator that found my sister's ex-boyfriend and essentially he was an ex-cop and

her ex-boyfriend had a warrant out and like managed to get him into jail so that he could be interviewed. And the detectives were like, I guess, I guess we'll talk to him. Like,

You know, and it's like we literally delivered him to you. And they finally talked to him. And his alibi was that he was a block away from where my sister lived. And he couldn't get anyone to back up his alibi. And so and then nothing. And it's like just so then what do we what do we do? Like there's only so much love.

there's only so much that we can do there. And you have made such incredible headway. But even I was just listening to a couple of your last episodes last week. And like,

But it's that two steps forward, three steps back. Like, it just, it's so frustrating. Yeah, it's so frustrating. I mean, I've gathered, this is like tea. I talked to the new detective on my dad's case, which he was just assigned. My dad was just assigned a new detective, which is so crazy because I've been doing this podcast for three years now and it's...

it's been a cold case for a long time. So the fact that no one was assigned to my dad's case is crazy. But then finally, you know, I'm grateful for what I get, I guess. I talked to the guy and it was very funny. He was like, so what have you found? What do you think happened? And I'm like, what? Like, what? First of all, you can go listen to my podcast. And he was like, oh, I haven't listened. I'm like, okay, well, like, I don't know why. Like,

you could go listen in a day. I mean, I don't have a ton of episodes out there, not very long. You could literally listen in a day. And then we could talk about like, if you have questions or how'd you find this person or who is this or whatever, because some identities I keep a secret. But like the fact that you want to start your basis for your investigation based on my investigation is crazy to me. And like, it's just so insane, the incompetencies here and the frustrations that like,

yeah, you need them. But like, I've almost killed my dad's case by being so critical of them. And the last time I checked, you still have to do your job and serve the public that you've sworn in to serve, regardless of how they feel about you. And again, we're in a world right now where that seems to be shifting. It used to be, I mean, I remember...

Growing up, like I grew up kind of religious. It's really weird and gross. But like in 2000, when Bush was elected, a lot of people in my hometown were very happy about that. But I'm sure people outside of West Virginia are like very afraid of what that meant. But like.

No one was really that scared at the level that we are now, right? They knew, like, at the end of the day, like, George Bush is gonna, you know, represent the U.S. to the best of his ability. And, like, even if you fall under a category of people who didn't vote for him, he still felt a responsibility to represent

you know, represent you. And then Obama, the same. It was like, OK, now Republicans aren't happy, but they never felt like, oh, he's just going to totally trash us. He's still going to represent us. And we had a world where even when power shifted, you still felt like, OK, they're going to do the best job that they can. And I don't feel that way anymore.

with the Belmont County Sheriff's Department, because even if I'm hypercritical of you, you should still say my job is to solve this crime. I don't it doesn't matter how Madison feels about me. It doesn't matter how her family feels about me. My job is to solve this case. And I don't feel like that's true. And I don't feel like for a lot of cases, it's common that if you're hypercritical of the police, they just don't do their job.

And I think that's wrong. But now I'm sort of like 10 toes down of, you know, being critical of them and they're probably not going to do it anyway. So I'm like, all right, I'll just keep telling you all the messed up stuff that they're doing because I got nothing to lose now. Well, but it's interesting because they want you to do all the investigation, but then they're

angry that you're coming back like, okay, you haven't done this. Like, here's information you haven't done this. And so it's like they send you off on this wild goose chase to like keep you out of their hair. That's like, no, your job is to solve it. No, that is exactly what it feels like. It feels like they're just sending me around and around and around just going, all right, we'll watch her spiral for a little bit.

Do you think that the popularity of Ice Cold Case because of that is sort of like, okay, we need to start doing something? You know, I'd like to think so. But unfortunately, the show is actually not that popular, which sounds crazy. It's not? Yeah. But, I mean, it is.

But it's not. I mean, I'm not... I, you know, I've not... I'm not in the top charts on a regular basis. I'm not...

you know, hitting download numbers that would be impressive to anyone. I'm not on a big network. I don't have like the support in that sense of like promoting the show in a way that would be like, oh, this show's everywhere. We can't stop seeing this show. So I think they have moments of like, so basically the lead up to hearing from the detective was I was behind the scenes working on this op-ed for Teen Vogue.

And their fact-checking team was psycho. And they were fact-checking. I mean, it took us like two months to get this out. It was like every line. They were like, well, what about this? I mean, are you sure it happened like this? Do you have receipts of this? Do you have proof of this? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I'm pretty sure Teen Vogue reached out to the Belmont County Sheriff's Department for comment at the same time that CBS reached out for comment because they had written an article about me. So I think that they thought...

something's happening. So they reached out to me. But now, of course, like that's all died down. Like I didn't it didn't render, you know, it's good to have and it helps. But like it didn't render what, you know, I was hoping for. I always hoped for. And that's what's really crazy is the whole reason I started this podcast. Everyone's like, oh, my one cousin is like, you started this podcast just to be famous. And I'm like, yeah, I did, because that's the only way this is going to get solved.

If you can't go anywhere without hearing Madison McGee, J.C. McGee, John Cornelius McGee, then this case will up immediately. I guarantee the minute I'm number one on the charts for long enough that I'm like beating Joe Rogan and Good Morning America is like, who is this girl? And I'm on Watch What Happens Live. Like,

It will get solved within six months, I promise you, because they already know who did it. They already know what's going on, but they don't have the public pressure and no one is giving them any flack for not solving this case. So it doesn't matter. Well, then that's what we have to do. We just got to get you to number one. It's wild to be at number one, though, I'll tell you. Yeah.

It's confusing. Yeah. Well, when you look at your bank account and you're like, well, this doesn't I'm number one because this doesn't say I'm number one. Yeah. And then that's what I think is so funny is people maybe speculate like, oh, she just wants her podcast to like blow up so she can like make a ton of money. And I'm like, that's actually not at all what's going to happen. So, no, it's really just the free publicity thing.

for my dad's case that I want because the publicity costs a lot of money. So I guess I'm saving money in that sense, but I'm not going to be like cashing in some fat check because I'm number one on the charts for like two weeks. It's like, that is just the push that I need for them to do something. It really is like public pressure, you know,

In the same way that like all eyeballs are on Karen Reid and all these other big cases, it's like, I need that. I mean, Governor Gavin Newsom's daughter came home one day because she saw a TikTok about the Menendez brothers and we've never heard the end of it since. And that's how truly that is how their case has become such a big thing right now is because his daughter watched some TikToks and went home and went, I just think they should get out. Don't you, daddy?

And he was like, yeah, I'm going to grant them clemency if they don't get resentenced. And it's like, this is crazy, but that is how our justice system works. You may get a little excited when you shop at Burlington. I'm saving so much!

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Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by Regency app for details. The point is, for me, it's sort of dual purpose. It's put pressure on the police, obviously, and be like, hey, your case from your county is the number one true crime podcast right now. You should probably do something about it. But it's also to show other people, hey, listeners, fans,

People who buy advertisers, they like cases of unsolved Black people. So when you are sitting in a room and you're on the development team at Wondery and you're going, okay, market research, what's performing well today? Who should we give our time to? What cases should we highlight? You go, oh, well, that one did really well.

So maybe we do more like that. And then my dad's case turns into five others that get highlighted because the market then shows, oh, people actually give a shit about this stuff. And that's sort of the like sidebar purpose. But really it's like,

I knew my dad's case was never going to get solved unless it was so wildly popular that, like, it was on the same level as, like, JonBenet Ramsey. And that is the only way that these little men in Belmont County who do nothing all day because there's not a ton of crime happening in this town are going to do anything at all. Oh, that's heartbreaking. It's so... It's just... I...

I don't know. We had so many people and so much push to try and get my sister's murder solved. And to know that, like, it's not like the TV shows. I just always assumed it was like

you know, CSI Miami, where everybody shows up and they're trying to figure out fingerprints and fibers and all of this stuff. And it's like that never, it just doesn't happen. I mean, maybe it happens somewhere, but it didn't happen for, you know, my 20 year old sister. And it's because there were drugs in her house.

You know, and she had been clean and she had been sober, but they're like, oh, she relapsed. I guess, you know, we're out the door. It's this idea of like perfect victim. And that's sort of why, you know, my sidebar purpose now is to like get people to highlight cases like this, because there really isn't a such thing as a perfect victim. Right.

You know, I think about, like, JonBenét Ramsey could have grown up and been a bully in high school, you know? And, like, she probably would have still been beautiful and successful and had a lot of friends. But if she got murdered when she was 16, she was a villain to somebody. She's not perfect. Nobody's perfect. I've probably been mean to someone before. And, like...

You know, I think we just like really latch on to these like personas and these stereotypes when we talk about victims. And it's so easy when they're beautiful to be like, oh, they were wonderful and well loved by everyone. And it's like, I'm sure there's someone out in the world who's like, they weren't that good to me. They were mean to me or they shoved me in a locker or something. And that doesn't mean that they deserve to die, obviously. But it's also like everyone's dynamic.

And when we start to sort of categorize types of people and whether or not they deserve to be victims or their cases deserve time and attention, we get into really murky territory. And with the sort of

entertainment-ifyment of true crime, it's now very weird because we're allowing these networks and these TV studios and these producers to decide which cases deserve documentaries, which cases deserve TV shows, and they are not reflective of people who are not considered perfect victims. And I think that is really dangerous too because we're allowing these people to decide

Who deserves time and attention? And I just think it's really scary. I'm really proud that you are willing to put yourself out there because I do think that you sharing your message to find justice for your dad, but also to raise awareness for everyone in the world that, you know, gets killed or is abused or

And nobody deserves that. And it's, I think it's really important what you're doing. And I can't wait to see you on number one. And I will be there cheerleading every way that I can. You've done a phenomenal job with a really complicated story that

I think you've just told in such a way that isn't accusatory, but is enlightening about the other people involved, you know, and it's, you haven't turned your dad into like sensational clickbait. It really is this full picture of a human that deserves justice. And I appreciate you sharing your story.

Thank you. I mean, I feel the same way about you. I told you this when we met, but it's funny, like a year ago, you were a stranger to me, obviously. And I'm scrolling through as I do every week to see like, where's ice cold case falling on the charts? And like your face is there and I don't know you and you're number one. And it's like, who is this? And I love that because I love when I see people.

shows and like productions that I don't know on the top because it's like, oh, that's like a person who made a show, not a Wondery or a Dateline or whatever. And I just remember feeling like so excited for like you, who I had never met and never knew that I would eventually, you know, love and care for going, hell yeah. Like that's what this is all for. Like this is to show those people that like,

you can tell your own story and you can tell a story that no one else would like even care about. And people will care enough that it hits number one. Cause that's like, I ran into so many like, oh, well, I mean, we just like don't want to put the time, money and energy into this because like, we're not going to get anything back. And it's like, all right, well, I'll see you on the charts then. And like when I beat you,

You're going to be really upset that like you're not getting a piece of that pie or that I won't sit there for longer because of your backing. And then you would have made all that money back. And like, it's just funny because it's like I love when I see people

you know, the non-affiliated shows going and just skyrocketing to the top. And kind of I think moments like that really do make those companies kind of like think and take a moment to go, OK, what are we what are we doing here? And so I remember seeing that for what, like 13 weeks and just going like, hell yeah, like this is amazing. So I feel the same way about you. Yeah.

Well, thank you. I will say that I think it definitely proves that people want that human connection. And we can take the media that they feed us and they give us, and that's what's sort of bombarded on us. But when I do hear stories, authentic stories, that's why I love yours so much, just the

Those are the ones that I'm like, I relate to them as a human. And I know that there is a bigger person behind all of it. And how you can show up and do an episode and then go and cry for two weeks. Like it's all of it. And we get to experience all of these emotions individually.

What's next for you? You with Ice Cold Case and beyond. I saw the L.A. Times show. Like, tell me what's next. So I'm finishing up sort of the last installment of my dad's story on Ice Cold Case and kind of figuring out what.

closure sort of looks like for me for now. Obviously, if there's updates or there's something that happens, I'll make more about that and update everyone. But I think for now, I'm getting to a point where my investigation does feel like it's coming to a close and I've uncovered everything that I can. And the remainder really is in the hands of the Belmont County Sheriff's Department. So figuring out kind of this summer how to wrap that chapter of my life

up as much as possible with the loosest bow so that I can obviously go back and revisit if necessary. Um,

I have this incredible show with the LA Times coming out that I'm very excited about called LA Crimes. We sort of talk about crimes specifically in LA, but I think a lot of them are like cultural phenomenons and sort of our fascination with them. But I also get to sit with the journalist who's been covering that case. And so this is where it gets really exciting for me and where our show is sort of different than your traditional like recap by a podcaster. Yeah.

who are also great journalists and very nice people. But these are like, I'm sitting down with like Richard Winton, who is, you know, an incredible journalist for the LA Times, has worked with them for decades. And he's,

is embedded in these stories. I mean, he's in the courthouse for every court hearing. He's not watching the TikTok recaps and, like, making a podcast. He's, like, in the room when it's happening, seeing what they're wearing, what shoes they're wearing, if they're wearing socks or not. I mean, he's, like, he's there. And, um...

You know, a bunch of other people. Clara Harder is another incredible journalist who's doing breaking news for the L.A. Times. And so I get to talk with these people about what it's like to be a journalist covering these stories, but also the details about these cases that don't get into the story that they write. You know, there's word count maximums and they have deadlines. And so they're dealing with all this stuff. And sometimes you find a reporter who's like, oh, I could write a book about this case.

And I only wrote three articles. And it's like, OK, well, what would have gone in the book? Tell me that. And so that's where this show gets to be really exciting for me, because as someone who started out as just a curious person, now kind of an investigator in my own way, I get to hear from people who are also doing that going, oh, this is what I did. Or, you know, L.A. Times is solving crime. So they're

You know, Christopher Goffard is going out investigating a story and then all of a sudden there's like a conviction because he found someone who did it and interviewed them or something like that. And so really getting to that, hear about that is like just a dream come true for someone in my position who sort of feels like this fake journalist. I'm like, I get to interview like these real people.

you know, journalists, I feel like Robin getting to interview Batman a little bit. And it's just really exciting for me. And I think listeners will really like it. And I think kind of in the same vein as people who want to hear kind of authentic, real storytelling. I hope that they tune in because they want to hear from the journalists who are covering these stories and, you know, sitting down with the accused or victims. And it's really exciting. And a lot of the crime stories

stuff that you've heard of. So it's, you know, the Menendez case or the Tom Girardi case. And you get to hear stuff again, kind of in the same way I did the Tanya Harding story. You get to hear the stuff that you're like, I didn't even know that. Or, wow, I formed an opinion without this whole chunk of the story. And there's a really powerful quote in the episode that the first episode of L.A. Crimes, which comes out soon, where Richard Winton, we're talking about the Menendez case, and he goes,

The more you know about the case, the more you have an opinion about the case. And I think that is just like so true because he knows everything about it. And he's like, you know, now I finally have formed an opinion about what I think. And I think that's just really powerful. So that sounds incredible. I can't wait to listen. I'm really excited. I have one thing that I'm working on. That's kind of a secret. Can you tell? Can we?

Is it like a secret secret? I am going to launch a new independent show that is not true crime. So I'm excited about that. You don't have to share yet. We can, but I want to know more. I'm like working out sort of the details, but it's a show that I conceptualized about violence

about five, six years ago that I just never did. And probably like seven months ago, I was like, I think it's time to pull that one out. And I think it's time to do it. And I'm really excited about it because it's way more fun and it's comedy. And I'm excited to kind of stretch that

that idea out a little bit and kind of see what happens. But that will probably launch like within the next six months. And then turning Ice Cold Case into something potentially. I think there's so many people that need help and that I want to highlight their story, even if it's, you know, I can't do a deep dive, but I've got this feed and I've got these listeners and, you know, I'll tell your loved one's story and maybe they could go down a Reddit rabbit hole for you and help you. Kind of like an America's Most Wanted type

you know, idea with John Walsh and what he did. John Walsh is my hero. If you're listening, I love you. And kind of just seeing, you know, what ice cold case could become as far as like, you know, John Walsh has helped so many people in so many cases get solved. And, you know, if there's a world where I could do that too, I would love to explore that. So kind of figuring that out.

So just a couple of things. Yeah, I mean, I'm like, I watch a lot of reality TV and sit on my couch. But yeah. You can support the show by joining us on Apple Podcasts or Patreon. Episodes are available early and ad free. Our executive producer is me, Brittany Ard. Our senior producer and editor is Sydney Gladue. Sound

Sound engineering by Sean Simmons. Graphic design by Najella Shama. Opening theme by Youth Star and Miscellaneous. You probably think this Stories About You is a production of BDE Unlimited Productions. You can follow me for updates at britney.ard on all social media platforms. If you like what we're doing, don't forget to hit that follow button wherever you're listening to this podcast.

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