When Comfort Turns to Chaos: Midlife Dating, Bad Ass Bitches, and the Emasculation of Men
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True Story Media. In this episode, I got to sit down with Jake Teptula and Michelle Locke, hosts of Love, Lust, Fear. We talk about everything from where we're at in our own relationships to what it's like having a show that deals with our own trauma and sharing other people's stories. I had an amazing time talking with Michelle and Jake, and I hope you guys enjoy.

You know, I get asked all the time, what's the best way to start your own podcast? Well, I mean, there's many ways you can tackle this, but one of the things that's made it really simple for me is an app called Descript. It's simple. It's collaborative. It's an audio video editor that turns your audio into text so you can edit it easily. Think of it kind of like using Google Docs or Microsoft Word. There's both automatic and manual transcription options. It's super fast, accurate and affordable.

It's a tool we use for Loveless Fear and Loveless Fridays. Keeps everything running smoothly. Whether you're an editor, producer, host, writer, it is perfect for editing sound files and even lyrics. If you're ready to let your voice be heard, want to support Loveless Fear and Loveless Fridays, just hit the link in the show notes under Descript. Thank you always for listening, sharing, and supporting.

Disclaimer. The information shared on this podcast is intended for entertainment purposes only. It should not be considered as professional advice or a substitute for seeking professional advice. It's interesting, but I had a conversation the other day. It's like how women like to change men and men like to possess women. Now that's a generalization, but in all fairness. Pretty accurate.

Intelligence is sexy. It is. Like smart and funny. You will get a second date with me if you're intelligent and funny. Oh, this is why I go on so many first dates. If it feels comfortable, it's probably chaos. Interesting. It's chaos you recognize because it's what you're used to. It's the pattern. Oh, yeah. And so for me, when I start a relationship, if I feel comfortable with someone, I'm like...

Oh, there is a point in time in our 40s where biologically we are no longer looking to reproduce. There are some exceptions. There's a general rule we're not looking to reproduce. So our willingness to put up with bullshit for the purpose of biology goes out the door. That's the bottom line.

I totally understand, but you're worthy just how you are. And even if somebody finds you boring, you want someone that's going to love you for exactly who you are. Wait, we're going to use a quote from Jake. I haven't done it in a generation. I never said that altogether. I use the word separately.

That's not a quote. You do not attribute that to me. That's illegal. That is a quote for the rest of our podcasting life together that I will use as many times as I can. Do you guys have merch? Can I get that on a shirt? The quote is... Oh, I do actually have merch.

I'm Jake Deptula. And I'm Michelle Locke. And this is Loveless Fridays. Here we delve deeper into the topics, themes, and stories featured in Lovelessphere. Today, Michelle and I are excited to welcome Brittany Ard, the host of You Probably Think This Story's About You, a podcast now in its second season. In the show, Britt revisits the messy, complicated layers of memory, grief, love, and everything in between.

Season one centered on her own story, and in season two, she opens a door for others to share their own. Britt, welcome to the show. Michelle, Jake, thank you so much for having me. I am so excited for our conversation. Since we both have podcasts about dating, I want to talk about our love lives for a second. Michelle, you give off this very women don't need a man to feel complete kind of energy. Does that sound accurate? No, you don't. No.

And so there's been a trend recently that I've seen where they're saying that if you're a woman in your 40s and you're getting divorced, it's because you're in a midlife crisis, which I really resent because it's not a midlife crisis. There is a point in time in our 40s where biologically we are no longer looking to reproduce. There are some exceptions. There's a general rule. We're not looking to reproduce. So our willingness to put up with bullshit for the purpose of biology goes out the door.

That's the bottom line. And so then we think much clearer. We have the ability to take some space from, I don't need to procreate anymore. And you look at the men differently. And I look at them now and go, and I joke, it's like, I can do ugly. I can't do stupid. That's a very intellectual answer. And I highly respect it. However,

It sounds like also you're procrastinating from getting down to the real root of the issue. The real root of date? No, I don't want a date. Like, now. Wait, hold on. I have a question. The real root issue is what? Because Michelle's needs are to be happy, to do whatever she wants whenever she wants.

And if there isn't a man that is going to add to that, then what needs does she have? She doesn't need a man. She does not need a man. Need a partner. That's it right there. However, there are things that she has in her life that are insecure.

There are things that she has. Well, there are things that from her past that she has yet to resolve that honestly, she's the kind of person who dives in first. Doesn't check the water temperature, dives in first. I don't. Okay. However, it's easy to do that. It's easy to get hurt by doing that in my position, in my perception. But from that standpoint,

she does talk about sort of the desire, the need, the wants to do and get out there and do these things and meet people and slowly do it. But there's an anxiety there. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. That's her sort of, you know, warning sign to enter into something, you know, troublesome.

But I know Michelle well enough now to know sooner or later she's going to want to do that. But the problem is it can't be an all or nothing scenario. She's got to take the baby steps to sort of get back to... I do. I agree. As I said before, there's an anxiety of, I don't know how to do it out there. Well, you haven't done out there in a few years. So you don't... Britt, you can speak to this. It's a different mode now. Hang on. Wait, wait. We're going to use a quote from Jake. I haven't done it in a generation. Okay.

I never said that altogether. I use the word separately. That's not a quote. You do not attribute that to me. That's illegal. Oh, no. That is a quote for the rest of our podcasting life together that I will use as many times as I can. Do you guys have merch? Can I get that on a shirt? The quote is... Oh, I do actually have merch. Do you want me to tell you the quote? Yes. The quote is, Michelle, you haven't dated in over a generation.

That's the quote. My quote sounds better, by the way. It does. I'm not going to say it doesn't, but it's probably been vetted by four other lawyers. So I don't have that luxury. Jake, it's really complicated, though, because I hadn't dated for a really, I don't know about a whole generation, but for a long time. I would never say that about you, Britt. I would never say that about you.

I'll say it's because I think Michelle's probably better at marriage than I was because mine didn't last enough to qualify for a generation. But I'm not dating currently. I'm not on the apps. I would love to date and find a partner.

Where am I supposed to go to meet a person that I would want to date? Because it just doesn't happen. And honestly, Michelle, you can't do it until you want to do it. But don't dive in. Don't just dive in because that's terrifying. What I'm worried about is a bender and has nothing to do with alcohol. Yeah.

I go on a bender dating and then I find number the right one allegedly and get married in three months. That's that. It's like a sort of a mancation situation where it's like she'll go to some tropical area and then hook up and then she'll be married by the end of the weekend. You know, I worry. I worry. No, I mean, this Michelle. Here's the thing. OK, Michelle has taken care of so many people in her life for so long. She has avoided her own needs.

And I'm not even joking about this, okay? That's actually 100% correct. My surgeons will tell you that. Yeah, no, it's taken a major toll on you. And what I'm saying is this, is that if you can explore things at a very slow pace, there's no...

lack of men circling Michelle, but they are intimidated by her. I mean, you talk about getting people sliding your DMs. The last person I would want to slide in the DM on a legal front is a lawyer. I'll be honest with you. I mean, that's literally like 101 and she still gets them. She gets guys who are willing to, you know, send gym selfies and show how flexible they are. And they, you know, she's got these quite flexible.

She's got these men, this harem of men that really want her time. I do not have a harem of men. You're so full of shit. No, but it's true. And what Michelle does, and Britt, just so you know, is she will automatically make herself a joke before anyone else can, assuming that people are going to mock her, assuming this. And as I said before, like I have navigated through the dating world. Part of the reason I started the original podcast based on this was my ex-girlfriend was a narcissist.

love bombing, gaslighting. I went through a lot of shit because I absorb a lot of trauma. I listen to a lot of stories and I have a very high sponge for that. And then I realized at the end of the day that I was sort of the recipient of all this stuff. Even though her intentions were good, she knew she was a self-sabotage. And I thought, I'll fix this. We'll get through this. You know, I thought, you know, for whatever you want to position me as. But with Michelle,

it kind of slips out. It's never a direct, like she says she doesn't want to date. And that obviously I'm going to listen to her word. That's true. But at the same point, there's always a little but. There's always a little ellipses to that. There's always a little asterisk. There's always something. And I think... I wouldn't be a lawyer if there wasn't like a little something. Well, you don't want to date, but you want to partner and you want to have love. I want to partner. I mean, that's... It's the middle part. Yeah. Like how do you get from...

zero to a partner. That's really what I want. Michelle, a man's going to be attracted to you probably because of your power out in the place. They go, wow, this powerful woman. But then you want them to flip the script when they get home and become the alpha.

Right. Oh, yeah. I'm a complex bitch. I'm exactly the same way. And my thing, though, is I think that I attract men that have malicious intent because they see it and they want to break it and they want to control it. They want to break it. They want to conquer it. And so they are like, oh, my gosh, it's so great that you're independent and you can do all of this and you're smart. And then they're like, let me let me take that.

I'm going to try and take that from you. And so it's complicated. You're talking about control issues as well. And I think that ultimately, it's interesting, but I had a conversation the other day. It's like how women like to change men and men like to possess women. Now that's a generalization, but in all fairness. Pretty accurate. To be fair, I think that ultimately it's like when you look at control, most men don't sign up to be emasculated. And I've seen relationships that turn into that.

quite frankly. But then I also see the other side where a man gets way too much control of relationship and it does become abusive. So, and it goes both ways. Obviously, I'm not just saying, but in all fairness, the stories we cover primarily using women. But Britt, can you admit, because I know I probably can, that we probably have emasculated a few men in our lives? Michelle, I will say that I have emasculated

every stupid man I have come across. Not every man. Not every man, every stupid man. But every stupid man, definitely. I love the male-female dynamic. I really like that care that you can give each other that I think everybody can offer their partners. And so I think I really like what you said, Jake, about, you know, possessing. And I...

personally want a partner that I want and I don't need and I want them to want me and not need me. And then we just, yeah, I don't know, sunset, right off, maybe there's a horse, maybe there's a motorcycle, but it is really complicated with people that have experienced trauma in their lives to get to a point where they feel comfortable being open and vulnerable in relationships.

Oh, it's really hard. And you need to give them like a roadmap of landmines. Like here's a trigger, here's a trigger, here's a trigger, here's a trigger, here's a trigger. But also not a roadmap that they can use to control you and abuse you. And so, and that's the hard part that I'm having with since my podcast released is that I have attempted to date a few people that have listened to my podcast and two of them very much used the information from the podcast. I realized that anyone listening to this could basically take the blueprint and kind of understand that

the things that I've basically determined as my weaknesses or my points. But I realize that that's not always a bad thing because it'll allow me to weed them out pretty damn quickly. And so I avoid... If you can spot them. That's the problem. I'm a sponge for a lot of things. And I'm a very sympathetic person. But truthfully, the past two situations, I'm getting even going out on more dates, I'm holding my boundaries a lot tighter.

Boundaries are the easiest way to weed people out immediately. Little boundaries. Just, no, I can't meet you tomorrow. But that's for some people. And that's what I struggle with. Boundaries were hard. Yeah, because you're trying to help everyone and you can see how they can do it better. Or no, just here, I got you.

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Michelle, have you found that all of the things that men are attracted to you initially are what they end up hating in you at the end? Like being independent and strong and caring. It becomes the problem. At least it became the problem with my ex-husband.

It was cute and great while I was up and coming and still young and still under his thumb. But then the minute I exceeded him or his expectations of what I should accomplish, it became a problem. Yeah. I think that's really common. I think it is because I can remember him saying, I always wanted to be married to a career woman, those type of things, right? Because they have their own money, they work, they're independent, they're smart, all those things. But with that is an independent woman.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But here's the other part that I think that some miss. And I think a lot of men miss this. A lot of independent women, and I say this because I know I'm one of them, every day, all day long, I live in my masculine energy because I have to. I don't have a choice. And it doesn't mean I don't act like a woman, but there's a definite different side of me that I have to turn on when I go into a courtroom and I have to go battle. That's just, it is. And it's more my masculine energy.

When I come home, y'all, I want to be in my feminine. And they don't get that. They think if you're the boss and you're this independent woman, you want to be that all the time. And I want to come home and have a partner say, hey, sweetheart, I got this for dinner. You want to help me cook? Or I made reservations. Do you want to go? Made reservations. I can't tell you. I've had my ex-husband never planned a vacation.

never booked a flight, never did a dinner reservation, nothing. One of our baby showers for our second son, he forgot about and I was late too because it was a surprise one. He was supposed to drop me off. And it's things like that that I put up with for 24 years. Raised his two kids, raised our now, well, three kids now, the two are much older. But

that's not what I'm going to have again. And so I guess that's my fear is because when I met him, he was this amazing trial attorney. And I will still tell you, I think probably one of the best trial attorneys in the state of Texas, phenomenal trial attorney. I will never, he is phenomenal at what he does. I was very attracted to that because I'm a nerd and, but it took him 20 years to tell me that I was a good trial attorney, 20 years.

Because under his standards, I wasn't a good attorney until whatever stupid merit badge I'd met in his head. But it literally was my, a two-week jury trial that I had on my 20th year of practicing law where he finally said, yeah, you're a really good litigator. So I don't know anything about any of all that except...

except that I would assume that he knew you were an incredible attorney the whole time and had his own insecurities and was unable to bring you up where you should have been, which

which is the crux of why you're divorced. We might've been married to the same person. It happens so much. It's why I got to 300 pounds. I got to 300 pounds and then I've lost 110 pounds. I have transformed myself despite the 15 surgeries I've had in four and a half years, despite two new knees, a new ankle, my neck fused, everything else. Despite all that, I've lost 110 pounds. I got divorced.

this is doing really well. I'm really happy doing all of this. And I don't think if I had still been married to him, this would have been possible because you wouldn't have allowed it to happen. You'd have been standing there at my door watching me do this the whole time and then interrupt about every two minutes. Or just keeping you down. I was with my ex-husband, I think 10 years or so. Never once in that relationship did he ever tell me I was pretty.

Or like, you look beautiful tonight. And this is even our wedding day. Just never. And what's interesting is that I'm a really confident person. I didn't really notice it until I got out of the relationship. And then men started complimenting me. And I'm like, oh, oh, that's nice to hear. And you don't realize how it sort of gets you.

Let me ask you both this. When you were first courting, being courted or courting the gentleman that you were with, what qualities attracted you about them that led you to believe that they would be the partner you want to spend the rest of your life with? For me, my ex-husband, I actually met him when I was 15 and we never dated or anything, but we were in the same circle of friends and we ran into each other much later in life. And he...

He was safe. He wasn't a douchebag. He was a nice guy, but he had zero emotional availability in the end. But that's why he's a nice guy. He just didn't have any real depth to him. It's amicable. We weren't able to make it work. But he felt safe after a lot of fuckboys and like the guys that are...

uber charming and get all the girls. It's like he was just, he was just a nice guy. And so I mean, that was what it was for me. But he also had a lot of insecurities. And that's one of the reason why, and I know it's weird. It's like you got to find this balance between the nice guy and the fuck boy because you want somebody that's confident in who they are and also kind.

It's wild. To your point, and I had this discussion the other day with somebody, Michelle, I want to know your initial attraction as well to your former partner. But it's almost like when you're in this position, you have different criteria when you're younger.

Right. Certain things are different things. And you have the ability to sort of forecast what you think someone could turn into based on what you've been presented with. Let's say the criteria, they may grow into that, whether or not you have to water them as a plant or whatever the conditions are. But I think the older you get, you tend to realize a lot of people are just kind of set in their ways. And generally, you don't want to project.

from that standpoint. And I think that there's a lot of people that we all need healing in our own way. We discussed that earlier. But I think that it's also, we're a lot less tolerant of things that we would have tolerated earlier because we could project and think, well, they'll grow out of it or this will be something that I'll just learn to live with. And that's one of the most dangerous and sad things is learning to live with that consistent, maybe not direct pain, but

but the sort of numbness in a relationship that you realize that you're just going to have to remain unhappy to make it work. And that's devastating beyond belief. Michelle, I don't know what it was like for you, but the straw that broke the camel's back in my marriage was I always assumed because I did everything, planned everything, handled all the kids' schedules, you know, did literally everything. I always assumed that if I needed him, he would

show up. Like I'm doing all of this because I can. I'm good at it. I like it. But if I need him, he'll be there. He's my partner. And then when it came to a medical issue where I needed him to step in and take over, he was literally unable to in any sense.

So it was at that moment that it's, if I'm going to do this alone, I'm going to do it alone because then I don't have to worry about somebody else. And I think that happens a lot for women, especially when the kids start getting older and you realize that you have that ability to just...

do it by yourself. Well, and it also comes to you have, it is easier to do it by yourself. And that's what it came to for me. But what it, so I was 23 when I met him. He was 45 and he was a trial attorney at the DA's office where in the county in which we were living in, or I was, but I was visiting from law school. Anyways, I was the intern for my first year of law school in his office. And that's the year I met him that summer.

And what I saw, because I'm a super nerd, was this

phenomenal trial attorney. And because I'm such a dork, that to me was like the... I see Jake laughing, but it's true. That was the sexiest thing I'd ever seen in my life. I've wanted to be a lawyer since I was eight. I've wanted to be a judge since I was nine. So to me, seeing a trial attorney in action, and this was someone that had people on death row at the time. At the time, he was the one trying all the capital murder cases. I mean, he was the DA's office. They needed a trial attorney to go in and try the case. That was him. And that's who he was for

probably three quarters of his career because he really is, and that's something I can never take away from him, truly a talented trial attorney. The reason I'm laughing is that you consider yourself a dork. That's the most ridiculous. You're the furthest thing from a dork. In your mind, you've planted some sort of character.

of what Michelle is. I mean, let's be fair. Britt, Michelle's a badass bitch. Are we in sync? Well, intelligence doesn't make you a nerd. No. And I think that when we were young and women, that's how it was presented. That if you were a smart young woman, you were a nerd and you were a dork, you got to knock that off. Yeah. Because...

I mean, it's intelligence. I think you're right. Like you said about your ex-partner, intelligence is sexy. It is. Like smart and funny. You will get a second date with me if you're intelligent and funny. Oh, this is why I go on so many first dates. Well, the first date syndrome too, it's interesting to show you brought back even from the past, is most people would look at that as this is somebody who's in power, successful, excellent.

And rode motorcycles. So my ex-husband loves motorcycles and loves Ducatis. And so, I mean, so I was this amazing trial attorney who rode motorcycles when I was 23. Come on. I was toast. Oh, yeah. Toast. And he walked like he was swinging a big you-know-what. Like, I mean, he was just...

And I'll never forget the day I met him. He was like, hey, buddy. Like, because he doesn't have the decency to remember anyone's name. So everyone was buddy. I didn't realize it at the time. I know it now. I turned around and I said, I'm not your buddy. And I have a name. And I kept walking. Because of course, that was my smart ass at 23 years old. I love that.

And that's when he fell in love. Yeah, I think so, actually. That's the scenario, though. That makes... I mean, that actually makes perfect sense. And you know, is that from that standpoint, now looking back on it, it's very hard for someone who has that much power and that much privilege and that much money and that much class or whatever you want to say to change those ways. And I think the same thing that put him in that position is...

he's not going to make concessions in a relationship. You didn't know that then? There's no way you would have known that then. Nope. I did not know that then after the divorce was done. We've hung out some since the divorce has been over because we're trying to navigate all of this. And I told him, I said, you know, if you had just done these things to change. And he told me, he's like, I'm perfectly fine with who I am. I don't need to change. And when he said that, and that's almost a direct quote,

I was like, and that's the reason why we're divorced. Because I had to change. I had to keep changing. I had to keep pivoting and shifting to whatever it was he wanted that particular week or that particular month or that particular year. It's fascinating.

fucking tiring. I can't, I couldn't do that, manage a household, manage two jobs because I've got two full-time jobs. Not to mention you added mom and then you added now podcast. I just... And a partner and show up as a partner. Right. Because he had to be entertained every single night. Yeah. My ex-husband, one of the last things he said before he moved out

He was like, I realized I was hurting you. I didn't know it was this much when I had asked him to leave. At least he realized it. Well, but my response was, how much hurt is...

Like how much hurt is okay to impose upon your partner? Because I don't want to hurt you at all. In fact, I will hurt myself so that you're okay. You probably did like I did. You do. Yeah. You put yourself last and you end up injuring yourself taking care of them. Yeah. Yes. I have so many children. Yeah.

And so, I mean, that's, and I worked full time. And, you know, and, and, and. And it's hard. Like some of the people that orbit our lives always have great suggestions on how you should do things, right? And my thought is, come live my life for a week. I'm like, you couldn't handle 24 hours of my life. No.

But they can sure give great advice. And that's why you deserve a partner and shouldn't date until you are ready for one. Right. And I really, I just, I need someone. And Jake, I don't think you're different. I think you want a partner too. You don't want someone that's going to take and take and take from you. I think you've had enough of that. I've been there and done that. Well, I'm...

I don't want to vilify every woman I've ever dated. It's not really about that, but I have had, unfortunately, a bad run in the past two, unfortunately, and it usually revolves around me being sort of the clay that can be shaped and manipulated. And to be fair, I sign up for these things. I got to take full accountability. My thing is this, is that...

I weigh trauma, right? The kind of things that are happening to me are nowhere near anything that's going on to any of the survivors that I speak to. However, the problem is it compounds and it ends up destroying me in a different way. It ends up chipping away at my emotional ability to connect. It chips away at my trust in someone. It has an impact. It's just one of those things. Well, you know, it's like you were saying before,

It's not as bad as this, or at least this person is not doing this to me because I remember how bad that is. So I'm fortunate. I should just stick this out. That kind of stuff goes on. That happens with me because of divorce law. I mean, I see behind the curtain, right? I see behind the white picket fence and what I do for a living. And so it was really easy for me to go home and go, well, at least it's not that. No, 100%. Jake, going into, I'm going to give you totally unsolicited advice. Sure.

Because it helps me when I am meeting people or trying to date. If it feels comfortable, it's probably chaos. Interesting. It's chaos you recognize because it's what you're used to. It's the pattern. Oh, yeah. And so for me, when I start a relationship, if I feel comfortable with someone, I'm like,

oh, I got to back up and try and see it. Reassess, yeah. And usually I back up and I'm like, oh, this guy is emotionally unavailable. He is negging. He's breadcrumbing. He's doing all of these things that feel comfortable to me because I'm so used to that. And that's wounds from forever. So now if I'm comfortable, I,

I usually stop seeing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's fascinating. I got to tell you, here's one of the issues is that I don't know if this is being a man. I don't know what it is, but I have this need to save. Like it's just imprinted in my head, right? So when I hear somebody with a conflict, I know better than to say, I'm going to solve this. But the fact that I'm there and I've dated some women, I've dated some amazing women and not everyone would speak highly of me, I'm sure. But

I've never had a bad breakup with an ex. I'll be honest with you. There's never been anything destructive, anything that would be like, I can never be in the same. There's none of that. I just haven't. I've been very fortunate in that respectful way. However, at the same point, you go through levels of maturity, you go through this and that. And I told Michelle too, I said, I will break up before I cheat. I will never cheat. I've never cheated. I never will. But the difference in this is one thing. I'm not judging anybody who does.

But the difference is this, is that- You should. You should judge anybody that cheats. So I have a different analysis on cheating, but we'll get into that. One of the things is that from the same standpoint is I kind of defined the difference between high maintenance and high drama.

So when I've been with, let's say, women recently, they weren't high maintenance, but they were high drama. And I have a high capacity for drama based on what I can absorb. So part of it is like this. All these things that are happening to this person that I'm dating, and she's going through all this stuff. Some of it's actual, like, real things, but other things are like her POV out into the world is there's moments of chaos everywhere. And to me, I just normalize it after a while. That's comfortable. Yeah.

100%. This is the ultimate problem, Britt. You're exactly right. And so for me, it's kind of like meeting someone who doesn't have that level of, let's say, chaos or level of whatever is kind of like confusing a little bit. You get bored. It's boring. Because I'm so used... Well, to be fair, Michelle knows this. I don't need a ton of excitement in my life. I do like routine. I do like stability. But I do like adventure. Let's be fair. Excitement and adventure, I think, can be two different things. To me,

To me, excitement, people like I'm bored. I'm going to go out and do something that may limit my ability to do anything cool in the future because I'll be locked up or I'll do something that will push the boundaries of what is safe. You know, things like that. That's not me at all, obviously. But you get emotionally bored if you're with someone that isn't creating this push for you to save them. If they are just doing life, normal stuff. Yeah.

You'd be bored out of your mind. You would be emotionally bored. And I would imagine that somewhere in there you would feel unworthy because that's what you contribute to the relationship.

To your point, I get worried about the opposite that I'm going to bore them. That's really, you hit that on the head. However, part of me is like, when I enter these things, is that me being there, let's say, as someone that they can sort of channel into and someone who can be there as that sort of solid rock and that stability. The safety net. The safety net.

me to then feel less about I have to be exciting for them because they create enough excitement in their life. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, that's my POV. Oh, I totally understand that.

but you're worthy just how you are. And even if somebody finds you boring, that's, that's, you want someone that's going to love you for exactly who you are. A hundred percent. Yeah. And I'm working on that. It's getting better for me, but yeah. And it's, it's, I say this as if I'm not,

like absolutely batshit crazy. But boring would be so nice right now. But it's really hard to be uncomfortable. Okay, here's the thing. Stability, routine, like to me, 99% of your life is freaking going shopping with someone. It's raising kids with someone. It's stuff that you don't necessarily always want to do. I'm not saying either one of those is something people don't want to do. They may not want to do it. But it's not going to be the exciting trips. It's not going to be these romantic getaways and

all the stuff that comes with the opening of a relationship, let's say the first act of a relationship when you first start dating, it's very unrealistic. And even if you have the means of the time or the energy to do that, it never lasts. Because if you're trying to project things that make

artificial excitement without really bonding and getting to know someone, I get bored with myself. I can't expect somebody to be excited with me 24-7. Okay, let's be honest. But it really is going to take someone who you can do the routine mundane things with and have fun doing it. That's really, to me, the pure thing that I'm trying to achieve as well because all the other excitement, all that stuff, that's amazing, but that's not sustainable. And if you're doing a lot of things outside,

I feel that you're not doing a lot of work inside on the relationship. And I see that a lot. I see a lot of people like, every weekend we have to do this and we have to do this and we have to post it. I don't see any real communication. I see a lot of projection about things, but there's no real internal work going on. Well, that's why your partner has to be your best friend. Somebody that you can laugh with and someone that you can cry with and go on trips with, but also buy groceries with. Like if I think of my best friend...

It's been, I don't know, almost 30 years and we do amazing things. And then sometimes we sit on the couch and stare at our phones for four hours. But it's that same level of trust and care that I think we find in best friends and it's hard in partners. I want to be able to go to the grocery store and dance my ass down the aisle. I'm listening to the music from my generation. That's what I want to do.

We have shared an episode before on Loveless Fear on the feed. But what do you want to share about you? Probably think this story is about you. What is season one all about? I decided to share my story about my relationship with this man who...

emotionally and mentally traumatized so many women. I wanted to share my story because I felt like a lot of people would relate to it. And I like to make people feel less alone. So it started that way. And then I dove into the how I ended up in a relationship with that type of person, which required me to do so much digging into my childhood and other things that happened in my life.

And nothing in my life, nothing is sensational. Like there isn't this death and divorce and grief and love. All of that stuff happens to all of us in different ways. And my goal was to bring humanity back into the conversation so that people could relate and understand that this stuff sucks. And it's just trying to get through it.

How difficult was it for you to come forward and basically open up some of the most intimate parts of your life with what turned out to be the world? Because the podcast is highly successful at this point. So initially, when I went in with my first idea, it was going to be more technical, talking about narcissism and how to spot red flags and try and help women in my age group date.

And then once I started talking, the production company said, we want to shift the story theme. Tell us more about you.

And I didn't plan on sharing so much of myself. And so it just sort of happened. And I would go in to the studio and over a couple months, I just kept essentially trauma dumping. And it was really hard. It was really, really complicated. And when they got all the audio and they started sending me episodes to review and edit,

I was processing whatever trauma I had told in the studio the week before. And they're sending me the trauma I had dumped the month before to edit.

And the month before the podcast released in May, I think I was in bed that whole month in tears, really, just because it was not just the experience I had with this man, but it was my spoiler alert for anyone that hasn't listened. It was my sister's death, my mom's death, my relationship with my mom, everything.

my grandma's death and divorce and kids. And it was all of it, but like supercharged. It was really hard. The hardest part for me though, was I stayed in bed and I just let myself be sad and cry. And that's not who I am as a person. I would always push through, start something else, ignore it, just cry.

just kind of keep going. But I just sat there and was sad. And once the podcast was released, it really lifted a huge weight for me because even though it's my story, it was out there and I felt lighter. And I felt like it wasn't my burden to carry that weight anymore. And I

Then when people started responding, talking about how they had related and in different ways and sharing their stories with me, it was absolutely incredible. And one of the most cathartic things I think that I could have done. Well, you know, podcasts like yours and ours, we deal with some really heavy stuff and there's a level of emotional weight that comes with that. Have you noticed the effects of secondary trauma while working on these stories?

In season two, I started sharing some of the listener stories. And as you know so well, in order to find a listener story to share, you have to talk to a lot of listeners and they tell you a lot of stories. Michelle, I'm sure that in the courtroom, you have heard thousands of really traumatic stories. And I am

empathize so deeply with people that have come through these incredible traumas in their life with such resilience. So I want to talk to them. I want to relate. I had to establish boundaries really early on to not try to save them. I can't help them. I can help them share their story. But hearing all of these stories, they're

It was a couple months where every day I was listening to two or three different stories and it was rough. I mean, you have told so many people's stories. It's a little shocking to me that you still like people just in general.

One of the reasons why I left the bench full time was because I couldn't take listening to these stories anymore. So I did CPS in addition to the domestic violence court. So I listened to all the child protective services. The court that I worked for was the statutory child protective services court for the county. So every single child protective services case that came through the court system came through my district court as well as me as the associate court judge.

And so between handling that and then doing the domestic violence court for that period of time, there's no way it can't affect you. And I remember my last year, as you're on the bench full time, I was pregnant with my little one who's now 10. And I couldn't do it anymore because all you saw were people intentionally harming their children. And I don't mean a little bit.

But it's one of the reasons why I left the bench. I just couldn't stand that everyone was awful to their children when I was getting ready to bring another one into this world. Well, and if you detach and you don't have emotion around it, you don't want to do that. And that's the problem. You do if you do it long enough. Yeah. And it's this balance of like how to help people and also...

not take the weight of all of that on. But I mean, you guys have told so many amazing stories. And so you also get the survivor's resilience and how strong people are and their friends, their family, like the people that come together when there is trauma in somebody's life. You see the worst of people, but you also see the best in people.

It's so nice to see the best in people. But then what makes me cranky about it when you have survivors are the naysayers and everyone else that start survivor shaming. It drives me nuts. So what is your experience like with either personally or with people you've interviewed with regards to survivor shaming? Because that's a real problem.

So people that survive our shame leave awful reviews about one person's experience as if listening to a podcast for 30 minutes or an hour gives you the full breadth of who that human is and what they've done. It's short-sighted and it

it shows a severe lack of humanity to me because these people that choose to share their stories are doing so for people to relate to so they feel less alone and they can come together. And the people that shame or even judge, like, why'd she do that? It's nonsense.

I tell this to people before you leave a review, realize how difficult it was for someone to come forward and share their story in their own words and understand that with that is going to come some judgment. Number two is until you walk in that person's shoes, which you never will, don't judge them based on the circumstances and how you think you would have behaved.

understand the components when you're leaving a review. It is okay to criticize someone. Don't criticize them for their judgment. Don't criticize them for what they did in the moment. And especially when you say, why didn't you leave? That's the most insulting thing to any DVSA survivor you could ever say. I mean, the effects of emotional abuse alone rewire our brains. And so the why didn't you leave part is just...

It actually, like you said that, and it makes my stomach hurt that there are people that say that because that's not how humans work. That's not how emotions and feelings and life. I mean, some people just financially can't leave. I mean, there's so many different reasons. But

That's what the abusers do. They leave it so you can't financially leave. They leave it so you have nothing but shame in what you've done or how you've behaved that no one's going to want you again. They isolate you. It's easy for you to stay because the unknown is terrifying versus the known cruelty that you've navigated for so long and can manage and deal with is easier and more comforting than the unknown scary because guess what? What if you pick asshole number two?

And asshole number one convinced you that you couldn't go out and do it or, you know, any of the things that abusers do to keep you. In season one, I talk about my sister's death. She was killed by her ex-boyfriend. And...

I had a ton of reviews of people that commented and said that we should have handled that case differently. It's your sister. Shut the F up. First of all, my episode was 30 minutes long. Like you got a fraction of the story. And I don't even want to justify it with what my family actually did to try and like bring him to justice. But those sorts of comments are...

You don't know me. Even if you listen to a really long survivor story, you still don't know that person. It's a blip in their life. For some reason, people don't evaluate things like Dateline or 2020 the same way. For some reason, there's an intimacy with podcasts that they feel way more connected to it because a lot of those cases are removed from people. They do get involved, engaged in it, but there's something based on the user-generated content that allows them

to feel truth. That's a good thing in a way that they feel so intimately connected, but it's also bad because they're realizing they're posting something publicly for everyone to see. And it negates the whole entire picture of everything we're talking about. And I'm all about constructive criticism. You want to talk about the production of the show, me as a host, anything else like that, that's fine. But when you're basically judging and rebranding

re-victimizing the people that come forward, you do realize you're doing damage to their psyche. And I hope people know this is that, you know, I may disregard a review, but when it comes to the people that we bring forward, it takes a lot of time and effort and energy and passion and drive for them to have just

even an hour out of their day to share something and relieve their trauma over on a podcast. So people really need to understand what that takes. It's not just an assembly line. We're not just picking people out of the blue and say, okay, it takes a lot. It takes a lot. I believe reviews are a good thing. I just think people need to have a better comprehension of communicating things and realizing that there are people behind these stories. They need to be kind. They need to be kind.

Outside of podcasting, you built a whole career in architecture, land use, and design. Can you tell us a little bit more about that side of your life? So I started my first general contracting company when I was 19 years old. Holy cow. And I don't think I've had an employer since.

I've always been self-employed. It turns out I don't really work well with others, but other people bossing me. Oh my God, that's verbatim what I have said. You two are like, oh my God, at birth. I don't like bosses. I don't need a boss. Yeah. My dad's an architect and a builder. And so he taught me architecture and I loved it. It turns out that I'm better at land use, which is the development side. Which is difficult. Architecture is my dream.

true love and I do a lot of design work, but the land use code, I wanted to be a lawyer as well. And then I got knocked up really young. And so when I found the land use code, I just loved it. And I was really good at it and really good at getting around different parts of the code where it was all legal, but

I made a huge career in Seattle in the 2000s doing land use. I think the company I started permitted over like 5,000 projects in Seattle. Like I was the person who you went to for land use. And I loved it, but it was so stressful. And I worked like eight hours a week. And when I retired from land use, I just went back to architecture and building, but I built my own designs. So then I don't have any bosses and I get to do whatever I want. But

That on top of I built three kids, I adopted two kids, and then our oldest is my ex-husband, who I've known since he was a little kid. So five boys and one girl, and youngest is 18 and out of the house now, and they're all thriving. But yeah, just...

not podcasting and honestly not creating stuff like this and having a medium where people get to review me is not something that I've ever done before. So this was all a really big pivot for me. Have you enjoyed the pivot? Because it's a huge pivot for me too. And I'm loving every bit of it. I love it. I really love connecting with the listeners. I think, you know, even though it's hard to hear the stories, I...

I'm in awe of the resilience of people and our ability to bring ourselves back out of really dark times. So I love seeing that. The creative side, it's a way different industry. And so I'm learning how to navigate that. But I've met such amazing people. I have my new best friend, Michelle. And Jake, we can be best friends, I guess.

Britt, what do you think is next for You Probably Think This Is About You? Do you have future seasons or any projects you want to share?

We just finished releasing season two and we're working on the production of season three. This is a huge spoiler alert. My producer's going to kick my ass, but she's making me start dating again. And instead of telling a story, we're actually going to share the story as it progresses. You know, I love that because Jake, I was going to suggest that one, you or I do that too. Well, I have someone that I'm bringing on to talk with, kind of co-host. He's

He's a friend of mine that I've known forever. And he's also in the same age bracket trying to date. Him and I have very differing opinions on why we are each single. And we're going to try and help each other find someone. Oh, I like that. That's a kind of a beautiful way to do that. That is. I love that. I also think you're going to approach it in a way that's going to be fun-

classy, engaging, and probably very touching at the same time. Like I really do. It's going to be interesting. Thank you for joining Britt, Michelle, and I on Loveless Fridays. If you have a dating or relationship story to share, or want to participate in a discussion here on Loveless Fridays, DM me on Instagram at lovelessfearpod or email me at lovelessfearpod at gmail.com. Thanks for listening, sharing, and supporting. Links to get social media and some content mentioned are in our show notes.

If you know someone who's being abused by a partner, there is help available. 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. The National Domestic Violence Hotline provides essential tools and support to help survivors of domestic violence so they can live their lives free of abuse. Call 1-800-799-SAFE. That's 1-800-799-7233 or text START to 88788.