The Coldest Case In Laramie - Episode 3
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Bank tok. Com to get started today. Equal housing lender member F. I, C. In hindsight, now there is, I would say, I am ninety nine point nine percent year red lemerre chill. Previously, on the coldest case in army.

you could literally see the flames coming out of the door. And I don't even remember him sticking his head out the door to look over.

Somebody mailed me a card with one hundred dollar bill in IT and said, if you're smart, you leave count. They think IT was probably friend that did that. The detective who was in charge of IT now is not somebody who was originally a police officer at the time. He is not from laming. And what's me?

His name is Robert Terry.

Turn left on the wheel, ming one thirty east, wowing two .

thirty east. We drove in the army just before easter, my first time back in decades, who was a strange sensation to drive to this place that had been frozen in my memory. I tried, but mostly failed to restrain myself from pointing out all the landMarks are remembered to jazzman, my friend and road trip partner.

The old house is, i've lived in as a teenager, stink lake, the construction pit where my old high school, i've been torn down, a fitting into that place as far as I was concerned. I started slow working around the edges. I was worry about rolling in the town in a new red prius with new york plates in handing out my new york time's business card.

That kind of combination can work against you and vowing, I needed some time to adjust to the elevation, get the lay the land wonder of fun of these is like Fosters, you know, i'm saying, like if I was in this area. Lorian bRandy fluid from california. We had dinner at the home of Vicky.

Lorrie chelly is mom. Lory showed us around the outside of Shelley's old department. And that was her bedroom window. That would have been like where her bedroom window was right there. And Michelle was on the backside, and then the the other living room window was right here.

So when Chelsea apartment had been turned into a garage room, the other four apartments in the building had been remembered and repainted a cheery blue instead of a dingy Brown. The whole town had a bit of a makeup ver really Fosters had been torn down and turned into a bowling ex on truck stop. The new high school had a gleaming football stadium in actual running track just off grand avenue.

There was, improbably, a vegetarian restaurant. After we spent easter weekend with Shelley's family, Jason, I hit the library. I've got a alarm, daily binging microvision from october nineteenth to december thirteen, thousand thousand thousand nine hundred eighty five.

That's a good picture of her. Yeah, but that one, yeah, she's very body right. Shelley's murder barely registered in the local paper.

But again, that's not a jump. It's that's IT. It's IT factored phone.

So if i'm looking for court records as this, right?

And what if it's for a family?

The trip to the courthouse was also kind of a dead end. We ran friend's name to the court system, and the only thing that popped APP was a traffic ticket. If Shelley's family hadn't kept a few of the court documents like the old search warrant for fred and a list of witnesses who were expected to testify, I wouldn't have had any paper trail.

The record of the murder charge had been fully explained. The mailbox is full and cannot accept any messages at this time. I called old police officers Shelley's friends, everyone on the list of witnesses, really anyone in near me who is even tent gently related to the investigation.

Hi, this is Stephanie. Please read your message. Thank you. I left a lot of messages. Hi stephane. My name is kim barker, and i'm actually reporter with the new york times. I'm calling you on thursday afternoon at about twelve thirty.

I'd been in later me a week before I built up the nerve to call detective Robert Terry, the man who was in charge of the investigation. I was truthfully avoiding IT. If he didn't want to talk, this story would be a lot harder to pull off.

I didn't see how I could figure out what was happening in this investigation if nobody doing the actual investigating would talk to me. I'd bent to this many times before I would call and get the typical police line in this kind of situation. Open case, no comment, but i'd keep reporting and come back a little later just checking in.

I'd be persistent but respectful, a buzz fly with good manners, eventually, with a little luck that would wear him down. But that would be a careful dance, a delicate game of cat. Is this rabbit, Terry? Hi, I don't know if I call you assist in police.

T for mister, which do you prefer? I doesn't matter. okay. Well, my name is kimble ker, and i'm actually reporter with the new york times, and i'm in laren right now.

And i'd love to be able to talk to about a case I know that you've worked on pretty hard over the last decade or so involving Shelly, Shelley, Willy. I'm actually in later. My i'm from larrey.

I went to high school here. I was actually in my soft mare here in one thousand and eighty five he was killed. And so i've just like always found IT.

IT was A I mean, you aren't here, but IT was a horrific time and learning. And i've always just been curious what's happened with the case. And so is there anyway we could meet in person and just had to talk about what we're doing?

I I don't mind meaning the in person, but I can't really speak a lot about the case because is still open.

I just discussed .

some of the things that are arty device.

Yeah, too, i'd be great. That be perfect.

But some of things doing.

yeah I know what you can't talk about things that are going on behind the scenes, but like just about the stuff that spent in the public. And I know I mean, I know you've been very personally invested in the case. And so I mean, according to the family, you're like the person that they've come to depend on.

So like to talk a little bit about that because that doesn't really have anything to do with anything ongoing, you know, because it's nice to have like considering who was arrested, you know to have a positive police officer involved, if that makes any sense. Yeah, sure. IT does. Okay, office.

Yeah, love to come to .

your office. When would work for you? 还。

不能。

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picture. So right, if you could start by introducing yourself.

是 money is Robert g。 Terry and on the assistant you for the learning police formed in learn my warming.

So talking about this case, how did you come to this case?

So this case is probably the most prolific case in army, and IT never was solved. And learn me has a few cold cases that we ve worked on over the years. But this is one that a lot of officers had looked at and done to work on is by far the most um worked case in the history of the pt, far as hours and manpower. And this was one I really wanted to take a peak cap. And so we pulled all the k files out and went through what we had evidence which so when they bring .

you out the reports and you starting to dig into this, I mean, that we talk in this much like a foot and and two feet. Like how much like are you looking at? I know a lot of IT was on microbial, so maybe it's just like a few microbes cards.

So kind of how IT worked is um people before me had printed all of and per move you know three whole punching and put him in no books so I started off with two like large they are right there actually blue ons I say one just like that. so. I've lived with these for eleven years.

just the two .

balloons where what is or what we're put together kind of prior to me and that that included all of the the written police reports to that point.

And you keep them here.

I keep them with me yeah .

so back back in the beginning they didn't talk a lot about um the blood just there was a lot of blood and I know from the one piece of paper I was able to get who was yeah yeah the search one in your affidavit but IT talks about the blood going down these two two doors and was there a hampering? Was that their blood on that door? That was two doors down from Shelly wali.

So the blood evidence between the apartment complex is you know is is primarily between partment three and one. Here's being won. The apartment were fat lama staying in number three.

So there was blood evidence on number three and then on the sidewalk leading to an into number one. So we know our crime seen at least that portion of us in there from there to there. So in in lots of IT, there's a lot of lot of story there.

The story as detector robbert. Terry told that was pretty simple, if a little vague. The he said that when he first started poking around the case, he looked through all of the evidence and read through all of the police reports, basically the right ups of the interviews. The police said in one thousand and eighty five.

right after the murder.

Terry said he got interested in fred land for several reasons. Fred was there, but his reason for being there seemed odd for a guy with a family. Cherry thought I was suspicious that fred, a former cop, didn't immediately respond when he heard a commotion outside.

Fred was interviewed by police the day of Shelley's murder, but that interview seemed a bit cursy and strange to Terry. Finally, biggest of all, when Terry sent out cheeky swaps of possible suspects to see if they matched with any of the DNA found at the crime scene, he got a match for fred d. Lam so what the DNA of fred lam to Shelly Willy I can't tell .

you all that um but i'm basically we have blood evidence um of credit in that crime scene so that's really all like to tell you which .

says .

a lot really I mean that's almost too much but that's that's really IT. We know that he was there. I mean, we saw him there that morning. So like that, all point IT is is like this, this holster is not not very difficult. It's just not in in, I would hope, you know, knock on what this doesn't happen.

But if IT happened today, i've always said this, I believe that the outcome would be much different just because of the way that we're trained in how we do things. But I wasn't it's not complicated. You know what? I've talked to some some of the guys and know some of them arent alive anymore that were there.

They there, everybody knew. I mean, you work with them, worked with everybody at that scene. And not only that, I was in the guard and me that's like a friend.

So you show one up in your friends there and your kind like that doesn't make much sense. But yet, surely that I work with wouldn't be responsible for something like this. So the dynamics and the culture and the friendships and everything just IT IT made things more difficult.

And I had to been extremely hard for the officers because they were uncomfortable. And they would never have thought that somebody that they knew and worked with, especially as a police officer, would you've been involved. But so .

there's some match that comes back that you can't discuss but in in implicated fred with with you know DNA evidence um what happens after that so go back and listen .

to his interview he tells them about said pizza evidence and is a wholly 发 is my language for was listen to this but like seriously he told him about IT in one hundred and eighty five is IT just goes back to to that dynamic of the relationships oh， okay, great. Thank you. Will I get a hold later? I mean, just didn't do anything with that.

What was like he might find my blood there because I was putting a screen back in or something like that yeah.

always has a reason for anything. You know, key knows, he knows what they are going to ask and he just, he told them what he wanted them to know and has made them super uncomfortable. And that's how I ended.

That's IT. okay. Thanks for IT. See you later. Body, let me know you get back .

whatever beer .

like kind of thing you know, just like me talk to in one of my friends. And there's no why I were here now, almost forty years later.

Can you talk about where the case stands now? Just as much as you can say.

yes, I mean, the case is still active. I need a new prosecute. I'm still working with pegg's office to get that accomplished and then move forward with our plan.

We want to take this to trial. We just got to have a prosecutor signed in somebody that wants to do IT and covet needs to to let up on our restrictions for courtroom. The the jurors need to see this, that see the family has to be there.

Not maybe not all of her family, but a lot of them wanted know they deserve that. And it's the time is running out. I mean, that's just the sad part of IT.

You know people are getting old and people are are passing away. You know, the cops are passing away, the families are passing away and eventually freed gonna pass away. And that's that's the biggest story of the whole thing is like how we're onna miss opportunity to hold him responsible. And we know who did this. We just .

have to prove IT.

Fd sent were that he didn't want attack, but his lawyer, von, he had a lot to say when .

judge and for became a judge, I got all drunk and I started giving Terry and all the cops a shit. And there there on and I was tell him what a bunch of presses they were for heaven, the wrong guy.

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Can I ask you just to identify, you say what your full name is and what .

you do for Howard new bar and a criminal defense journey.

So when you go to law calls, do you want to do defence? La.

I be a public defender. I've always hated the death penalty. I've never like cops.

I hate authority. Um, yeah, I wanted to be a public defender, and I would. I want to gotten tired.

I'd still be on. But do you have IT? My second daughter died. I had a very bad year. I got arrested four times in one year, and they let me go.

oh my god, you're OK never your second daur die.

But they are about still born. And but we got two boys. That's good.

but that had me really. And so you were working as a stressful.

So you a public defender.

your second other dies. You mess up a few times and like they fire you and then you go and you hang your own hanger out. Is that about IT .

the way where .

OK and had you had any of your big cases before?

Then penalty stuff was as a public defender also did the bush case, which was a twenty year old called harms side. Cold cases don't happen all that off. And i've done farewell ming. I've done a significant number of cold outside cases. Eaten bush being land for yeah for I ami is yeah so um talk .

about how .

you got involved with .

the lam case and um like how you first heard about IT don't know .

how they got my name and they hired me yeah .

what happens?

Boy, we are ready to go. Then they dismiss, claiming that they had get other evidence tested. Now this was a twenty some year cold case in the way these work is, every time somebody gets promoted to detective their hand at all the cold cases.

So every new detective since nineteen when is one thousand eighty eight eighty five um has had this case. Every piece of physical evidence has been tested. There was nothing left to retest and they dismissed, saying they needed to give evidence, tested some more, which was not even true.

There's nothing left retest. They still have the swap from the door where fred he was. And just because some of friends blood was on a door, two doors down, I always failed to see the significance of that.

And they had nothing inside the apartment.

I mean her butt and there is enough left to identify um no, he wasn't completely consumed by the fire and the fire really only did the living room, the the lots of the like, the bedroom, the kitchen, lots of stuff and that survived and they collected your bed sheet. I can't remember what all else, but there is nothing to connect fred land with the inside of that apartment. They found a bloody match book cover with a, with a fingerprint on IT.

Yeah, yeah, kind of like that. I don't know if finding this is in my electronic thousand. If now friends said I could talk to so out I, if it's not in here.

Any cause err. So my time and north, we put in the electronic files overnight. It's in storage or either over six creator in our storage or I can go find yeah but again, it's a cool case. I in the dv, there's a lot of stuff.

Happy to look through that with you if you're amenable to that 是。

Boy, okay, so we do have IT.

See, it's thinking.

yeah, you can manage me .

need to do a lot of the same.

here.

But yeah, let's go back to talking and then we can look. So you get involved, you get all this discovery. You started going through IT, and you're working with somebody whose is spent a very long time.

I don't know. He is his mind all there. Does he remember that night?

Yeah, you know, friends. He's a simple man, but now his memory is good. I mean, he remembers going to sleep. He remembered some kind of commotion.

He looked at the window and then there's people banging on the store saying there's a fire, you know, that's a friend remembers and so he's a guy know he really thought that the police were common to to scratch his brain, see if he could have any insights. You know, seven hours he didn't see IT common. And they confirmed him with all these lies about what the physical evidence was. And after seven hours, the most Terry could get fred lam to admit, he got him to admit that yes, I agree that the great weight of the evident points towards me, he'd never had a spin ticket. The one and only crime has ever been charged with his first degree murder.

I'm seeming that would have been your defense had you gone to .

trial IT would be both A A negative defense read in do IT and when we had an alternative suspect that we thought we could put pretty big meat on. Now I don't know if the bombing ever had this before. The fire department got called some hispanic nailed, came in about gas.

I think this is at the fly store. They did a composite sketch of him. And IT sure looks like Larry mont as a junior, june year high school year.

But photo to me, I know that he did IT. He did IT. I mean, he was previous hell that night, Larry, he drove.

He had a crush on some teenage girl up and rock river. He drove up there in the middle. The night went into her house.

I don't think he had to break in. They probably had the door open, but SAT there and wash your sleep for like an hour. And he left rock river in a plenty of time to get back down here and do this yeah.

And Larry man has his name is never been like made public.

No, they drag fred through the dirt. And yeah, I mean, he went to prison for being a child. I still, you know, but IT Larry did did yeah right.

So what is your impression of how that scene was handled from the very beginning? And like the evidence collection and like what the police did.

um you know i'm not a cop but I do know they like to keep their keep a track of their witnesses were in nearly stages of an investigation ah they had a very racist response. Um they've gotten information that Shelly widely i'd had an african american boyfriend and maybe SHE had A A preference for african american males and oh my god, did they turn this town upside down looking for african american males?

It's in talking to her family. They just they also talk about all the rumors that were being spread about Shelly at that point. You know, IT blame, blaming her. You know.

when he was flying with guys at the trucks stop, SHE was going out at the african americans. SHE had to be a slit, you know, because of that, you know, I mean, no morals, what so ever did. Didn't SHE think something like this was gonna happen to her? Yeah, there was lots to that there. No.

you think they're all investigating .

anything now they search on fred very less than a year ago. Mean, fed had to go get a whole another set of complete hampering taken. And they're not going to shown anything because read is a sleep. I mean, I don't know all the killers, but i've met a lot of killers. If flood lamps are killer, i'll kiss her as on the main street.

Did you did did any did they give you any of the old audio of the initial investigation like the interview?

Let's see. let's. These are from two thousand and nine.

Here's a that's from a valden. Here's one from one thousand nine hundred eighty five. Three desks. 像 嘴里 头 一个。

You need you of this that connects to there so we can just bring up a hard drive. Yeah and that works right.

It's like, girl, ever you guess the nights and.

Over the years, i've had lawyers show me documents, they believe to persuade me of their client story. I've had lawyers give me depositions that never made IT into a court file. I've gotten rejected police reports through public records request, but i've never had a lawyer and me, everything theyve gotten in discovery, all the policy reports and basically, say, have added.

I was confused about why von made the offer and suspicious about whether he would actually give me the entire file or just the stuff that made his client look innocent. IT was hard to know how seriously to take fun. He told me that the only DNA they found, a fred, was at the door of apartment number three, the information that Terry was being tightlipped about.

But was that true? I could already sent him trying to sell me in the Larry montaze thing. I was skeptical, felt pretty damn convenient to blame the murder on the sex offender.

And a dead one know less. When von ended the interview of that day, he said we'd hit by a o'clock. We headed over to the buck corn, the oldest, weirdest bar, and learn fan's favorite jazz.

And I drink more beers than we should have over the next few days. We circled back and grabbed all of the case files. I had advance office computer sandwich between art prints of chiguire and teaching chan, making sure I got everything. IT was a firehose of reporting material and pretty sure von tot that once I reviewed at all, i'd have to come up a conclusion he'd been paid to come to, or at least paid to defend that there was no way fred lam committed this murder.