The Coldest Case In Laramie - Episode 6
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Bank tok. Com to get started today. Equal housing lender member F, I C, previously on the coldest case in leamy.

was dragged Marks pretty close days place and IT was A A little bit of this real tiny splatter, like on the door. That's mine. You look. This is my look.

We know who did this.

We just have to prove that he did see and and they confronted him with all these lies about what the physical evidence was after seven hours. According to the documents, during a police interview, lami tion denied the homicide allegations, but later said the red lam did IT. T.

T, T. I'm not denying that I did IT. Bottom line is I killed the girl.

Wow.

I would say I am ninety nine point nine person redland murshid ly.

For decades, Shelly wireless case seemed to go very cold. There was nothing much in the case file that indicated IT was a high priority, not until Robert Terry came along. Shortly after Terry took cover Shelley's case in two thousand nine, he started bringing in people police hadn't talk to in decades, not as suspects, necessarily, for people who might have known something.

One of those people with fred lam. Fred came from a very influential family in leamy. His parents were as close to army royalty as he could get. His mother was a respected elementary school teacher.

His father taught the university for decades, even ran the school's civil engineering department, served the termine in the wyoming statehouse, but freed, chose another path, straight ed, out of high school, fred ten, listed in the navy, and went to vietnam, where you lost him of his hearing after coming home friday, became a cop. Then I share a step. Ty, shortly before Shelly was killed, fred quit law enforcement, enjoying the national guard full time.

By the time Terry became a detective, fred was working maintenance at the jail like a lot of the cops. And let me Terry new thread. He'd d heard some of the stories about him.

He'd heard that fried served in the military, that he was a former navy seal. He'd heard about friends brush with letter. My fame is the only survivor of a plane crash when a rescue emission from missing scars went down.

In one thousand nine hundred and seventy nine, fred suffered a crushed hip in a broken back. The other two men on board both died. Terry, new thread as a good old boy is good old boy. Do you like to tell jokes, shoot the shit, hunt fish? When tary brought fred in for their first interview in two thousand and nine, he was the first time fdd had been asked about Shelley's murder in twenty four years.

They ran through .

thread story of that early morning .

in thousand nine hundred eighty five, again, who is a friendly conversation, a relatively brief. Terry was just at the beginning of his investigation. There is a lot of file left to sit through.

The fred brought up something curious, something that wasn't in the case file I had, and that Terry also didn't seem to know about. Before the interview, fred talked about the results of the polygraph. Y, he said he took back in one .

thousand nine hundred eighty five. Yeah, I took IT for gary polls in your position.

He said I was too toothful for responded well, because the unique is of my military position there were questioned, had to ask directly that I had been committed or involved, and I, did you kill? Have you ever kill anybody? Well, but I was in the yeah too so absolutely .

yeah .

so and I like, you know, I knew gary. I was extremely comfortable with him. The other person that was given them at that time was bannet. I want for the shares department.

I recognize his name.

but I figured that gary should give up to me because I had been away from him for ten to two of years and have been working directly with then IT um quite a while. So they had gary do IT so there won't be.

If Terry was extra suspicious about this conversation, he didn't chop in the case file. At the end of the interview, he took a swap from insider fred's cheek for DNA, but he seemed more interested in other leads. He didn't compare fred's DNA with any samples from the scene in two thousand and nine, Terry worked this case more than any detective had worked in decades, but he worked in in a spare time, and he didn't work IT for long months.

After interviewing fred Cherry was promoted the argent, a new detective took over the case. His theory seemed to be that Shelly might have been killed because he was on the wrong side of a cocaine deal. Another version of one of the first rumors about Shelly for years, detectives also tried to match swab taken from the crime scene with their favorite suspects, DNA. And for years they came up empty until twenty fifteen, five and a half years after Robert Terry first swapped fred z cheek lab text, tested fred's DNA against blood found on the door of apartment number three. Finally, they got a match.

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Not long after you got the match for fred robber, Terry took back the case. He ordered more tests, enemy plans for his second and final interview with fred on other seventeen th twenty sixteen. This interview was crucial.

Terris one shot. He wanted a confession. The meeting took place in a small interrogation room at the station, pretty nondescript to say, for a pattern wall hanging in a circular table. Video captures all seven hours, two minutes and twenty nine seconds of IT, beginning with a icy ties.

your house not under rest. You drove down here on your own, came down. But since I will ask some questions here to please form, I like to buy your rights more is a formality if you're okay with that. okay. I think we did this in two thousand nine and two pretty .

three hundred sixty seven years old, bowled with the pot belly, wearing a Green shirt, genes and a cache vest. Wouldn't think twice if you song with a fishing pool in his hands, he looks relaxed, leaning forward out of the table. Tories on the other side, he looks Younger than is thirty nine years. Where's a blue dress short in a thai like he's on the management track at immense warehouse except that he has a gun in his sight holder and handcuff s tucked into the back of his slacks. He's got a couple of binders and photos with him.

the case file. So I thought we could just start with kind of like the basics. I've got a story I think you know what was going on, but maybe you tell in your own words what was gone on that day, you know. And I hope in a since we've talked before, you know, seven years ago now you know that you know not lying to you, you know i'm talking .

to you OK from .

the beginning.

tory makes a very particular choice. He's signals that he isn't talking to freed as a witness to a crime or as a suspect. He's talking to fred as a former cop, a colleague of sorts.

And and that's why we're here. You know, we have figured this out. You were there. You're my best friend, my allies OK. They went through the story again.

what fred remembered from that early morning in thousand nine hundred eighty five, what he did after he heard knocks on his door and someone shouting fire. Terry was friendly, but pRobing, yes, fred, about the layout of the apartment where he stayed that night, what he war and very parked his truck. Friends version of events didn't change much from his previous interviews, except for one key detail in the past.

Fred said that when he heard a woman screams, he didn't react much at first. In this interview, he said that after he heard knocks on the door and realized a fire was raging nearby, he had to do his truck to go find a payphone to call for help. Only by the time he got to the payphone, he heard sirens. So he doubled back and parked a couple of blocks away from the .

apartment you parked on one rose street or Terry miners places you parked on. Terry seems .

excited about this, suggested to RAID that he parked on on rose street. This is important because in row street happens to be where the bloody match book and footprints were found. Fred initially agrees that, yes, that's right. That's very part before backing off, saying he isn't so sure.

No, I I was powful over here myself right here. That's what friend said.

He was getting muddled about the layout of the streets around the apartment. He got turned around enough that he asked .

Terry for a city map.

Yeah, really.

了 再。

出来。 I'm trying to get all. Terry got him the map.

Fred turned IT around for a bit, and Terry tried to get him to confirm that IT was one row street where he parked. But fred never really commits, blames his bad memory. I should say that witnesses at the scene in one thousand nine hundred eighty five mentioned fred sticking around the apartment as police and firefighters arrived.

A couple of people even mentioned his truck being in the parking lot as the fire was going, if he did move as trucks early that morning in parcere over on and road street, it's a little unclear when he would have had the time to do IT. In any case, they go back and forth on this for a little while longer before Terry finally ask fred about the blood on the door. Back in one nine hundred and eighty five, fred told police, said his blood got on the door when he knocked his bloody knocked along in a few days before Shelleys murder, which even back then, the state lab guys said didn't make sense. Now Terry actually had friends stand up and reenact the whole thing with the bottles of water and a prop door.

Ay, you're on a porch. Spots come like this, right? According to our picture. Think done water. Is that .

about what you .

think 开发 了？

Forget IT on the cover on my own trial, I don't think so. I A little thing than that's true.

It's ably going .

to run a little bit that you do and you get the street and the comet trail the case you were already out, but the west one should have a comet pay on IT.

So about now and a half of the interview, Terry turned to what kind of shoes thread was wearing fdd told me was dressed in his national gugemar morning, which included a pair of jump boots made with a waterproof material called core FM. So Terry started taking out pictures of the crime scene flippin through ones taken just outside of Shelley's apartment, including one picture of a bloody boot print.

I know, walking back and for this probably events that you had to walk through that seen at some point, but .

there was dark ross .

gravel, I mean, or not an evidence safeguarding mode. We're thinking .

fire safety .

yeah.

With few exceptions, police officers are allowed to exaggerate and line in interviews. Another leery detective who worked this case, even false sely, told a woman that her fingerprint hp been found on the bloody matchbook. So here Terry didn't actually know a kind of boot prints are in the picture he's showing, fred. So from the file, it's clear that lab text never matched the print with a specific type, and they never got friends boots to compare them to only snap .

photos of them.

The murder was in october. In leery, harder ably, fred was the only person .

wearing boots pretty .

familiar to you, like a core family. He print looks .

like me. About an .

hour later, Terry moved on to asking thread .

about the fire experiences like ours and self, but like the excelling used in there. You know, we know that he was obviously highly. What would you used me if to make some burnout that quick?

What would I fused? Yeah, in a panic model plan mode.

Well, in this case, I mean, it's pain kids, something that's probably done after the fact. I obviously not thinking you clearly.

The post was sort of gasoline I could find usually a long more gas can or some gas can sitting out somewhere would have been my guess at this point.

Terry really only had one piece of solid evidence tying fred to the scene of the crime. He had confirmation that friends DNA matched the blood on the door of apartment number three, but nothing else. His blood wasn't found inside her Shelley's apartment yet. Fred seemed to believe everything that Terry said or even implied.

I mean, obvious. Ly, we did lot of blight typing back in the day. So there was o and a, those are the two contributors to the blood.

In this case, a, is you always her? So that's how it's been kind of, I get broken down in there. And so all the is we tried to then get DNA on to liberate and or include you.

yes. So that's .

kind of how we want about IT just to be kind of of front with you. Every swab we've tested, they pretty much took about as many swap as I would today. I might have taken a few more, but pretty much anywhere there was blood, they swapped to reference sample.

They swap that door. So they got all those blood samples of the door. Pillow case check for any biological on that squad from the wall ran all that.

So we're pretty much done with that. There were about five sobs that had a typing on IT 对 type which which was you yeah。 Any reason why that would happen? I mean, she's this is bind events.

I don't okay.

So as you d guess, most of them swap are Shelly SHE was main a bleeder SHE was injured severely. So she's the main leader, the ones that that weren't hers on the door, for example, that wasn't hers. The face and some other swap one. You know we were talking thread for until hf hours and i'm not not sure you know if your memory is Better today or if your memory was Better than you know.

And there are certain things I wouldn't expect you remember my new details, you know, so I think you tell me, know the truth on the blood on the door and know, and I think that blood belongs to who are looking for a friend, you know, cool. What do you think I mean? Because it's it's on the door.

It's fresh. It's in the proxy bly the crime seeing and is not the victims. yes. So i'm thinking that and I you know get that result. But you know when I told you, you know, today we're going to solve this and I mean that .

we're in .

solving well, we are IT. You know, two important dates in this case, but over twenty is nineteen, nineteen, eighty five and other, seventeen, two thousand and sixteen today. So first important days when to happened.

Second important days, day that we fear out who did. And so I want to talk you about that. I need to talk you about, you know, why this happened while you're there.

I went to hear the story.

I don't care how that IT looks. How that that sounds. Break your blood, your blood at the crime answer.

There is no got way that I did how the blood there got on the door. I honestly can ensure that I know.

friend.

but I don't kill people. There is no way in god, Green earth that I can did this.

But i'm not saying you kill people. I'm saying you did this one event .

being absolutely is in possible.

It's not impossible.

Club had a few beer days. I lay on the house. I have nose.

I opened the door. I looked out. There was nothing there. I will admit that I had been drinking, but no.

So but the evidence doesn't match that. okay. I'm not here because .

i'm guessing absolutely it's not .

impossible. I told you the goal today is for the closure.

All right, I didn't do that. There's nothing book are in .

the blood. What your boot prints are in the blood?

That is correct OK. I walk down there. I admit that I shows .

you the pictures. I shows you your book prints were in the blood. You said you, that's mine.

That would be a harper percent when I didn't tell you for red is his blood on top of that boom k, when you get blood on top of that bookmark that tells us a lot of stuff that tells us that you walked in the lood later on what was transposed on top of that heal impression? That's exactly what happened. The blood that heal impression .

comes back to Shelly one one were in .

at the time of this murder, at the saying, yeah, that's what you told me. I did.

I did look at IT. I didn't pay any attention to the blood I want around the corner in the bed. I know I do all stuff .

you didn't mention the nineteen and different stuff you did .

understand stand that .

I didn't .

do IT I did IT.

You know, in in one .

thousand nine hundred and eighty five.

you gave a pretty detailed statement on how blood would end up in the crime scene. Shared, they find IT, the blood's batter expert that looked the door. Blood also agrees your story that you gave in one thousand nine hundred eighty five about how the blood out there.

Absolutely impossible. A farce, a lie didn't happen that way, unfortunately. Offers one thousand nine hundred. And ty five believed you. They believe you because they were .

friends with you. No, I didn't do IT. You cannot make something happen, didn't happen.

But you can convince me you didn't do IT because .

I am finding that out. I mean, that's rather .

obvious objective. I can only go off what the evidence shows, unlike you, that's what I am underlying upon the evidence evident does not lie the evidence point directly to you, that is what IT is. You were in her apartment. You were in her bedroom.

Absolutely solution.

Not right. We have blood in the bedroom too, blood on the carpet.

in the bedroom. Now that ever, ever .

yeah, i'm sorry. That is a lie. No, for your line to me. No, you were just straight lying that there's her blood again on her carpet, next to her bed and a bloody water bed, by the way. But this started in the Better.

No.

what did they started in?

I didn't. I did not do IT. I wasn't there. I was an apartment number of five and three asleep .

maybe for a while. But you wanna sleep the all .

time always woke me up on our voices. But beyond that, I was in that apartment.

signed out.

out cold. I didn't do IT. I have absolutely te in federally. No, no memory of doing something that hainous if I did have a memory of IT, IT would bug me to that. I have no memory of IT if I did do IT and I did not do.

I know, and that is common.

and I put you on that.

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For a while in this interview between detective taran fred lam, the main theme was Terry accusing for denying. Almost loop. But now almost four hours in, there was a little crack. It's subtle, but it's there really gone from saying, I didn't do IT too. I don't remember doing that.

This isn't just gonna cause even if I die, if I drop this case and I go to hit by a car or die, there's going to be another detective gonna pick this up. That's the way that works in nowadays for no, everybody for that knows what happened. It's this time to hear that from you.

I don't have anything. I don't. If I did, do IT, I don't remember.

Fine, fine. I can live with that. I live with that. You, you remember I ve with, I can go to bed, deny, at least knowing net, you are making progress and you're making progress.

You're making, I don't know what if there is a defense making decision to the fuck off OK. I have not a con. Well, maybe i'm just screws people think I am. I don't know.

I can tell .

me way on my head of bubble .

off and just don't know right now you've got to help her.

You got you mean there's nothing .

that IT today is the day to help from this is I didn't you did you did by by all aspects.

I'm sorry, i'm not trying to make your life difficult.

Is not my life you're making difficult? Do IT it's not my life make them difficult. What's going to be difficult for us where we go after her and they're gone to hear a story they gonna hear either for me or from you.

So you're gonna .

tell them that you didn't do IT. And I don't .

know why I have no idea. I did the evidence .

points that you did IT exactly the evidence points that you did IT. So when you tell a rational person that the evidence points that you did IT but you don't remember, that's not you taking .

responsibility, don't i'm telling you I don't remember, I didn't do IT don't .

remember is different .

than didn't do IT I understand .

OK if you worried about the repercussion, which I think you are and and that's why you don't want to tell me, I know, but the repercussion is there. It's already there. Yeah, it's gonna happen. Thing is, is the character of the man for IT?

I can't remember if I anything .

you thought you.

I don't remember if I did anything.

So how am I going to explain this to the people that you love? How am I going .

to explain this? My going the door.

you're going to explain .

that all the evidence, the DNA, everything punched to the fact that I did IT. I can not to refute that evidence. I mean, it's pretty cut right when you get down blood type of shake. But D, N, A is almost the absolute. But to my mind, I didn't do IT.

You're obviously in denial for obviously you were denied. I can tell you .

that if you can on somebody else yeah might .

be .

right where you're right right now no doubt a about IT because that is emphatically that I did IT, but I don't remember if I did anything. And until I figure out out if I remember IT, how can I tell you we got, I did IT because anger say, did, did .

that?

What out? The, the, the week doesn't .

match up all of that.

I don't. If I did anything, I do not remember.

So where do we go from here? I .

honestly don't know. I guess the balls pretty much in your court if the proponent evidence, as I did IT IT should go to the court and .

you said the proponent of the event said you did IT.

Yeah, I understand that.

What do you want me to .

tell people what the books said for land? Did pretty, pretty much bottom line thing, right? IT happened. Bottom line is I killed the girl from the evidence presented. And where I go from here, you know, up, up to the county attorney and you and everybody else.

Am I doing the right thing if I arrest you on this time?

O. Absolutely here. Good cup. Be proud to him. Thank you. Most people look doesn't IT and through the back on the shelf, no.

I no, that was world .

because IT that's not want to say it's .

under the circumstances, it's quite a compliment and.

beautiful. You sometimes I make .

me feel Better about my job. You know, I don't i'm be honest with that. I'm glad the case is over. Yeah, i've lost so much sleep over this in the last couple of years and and i'm not in this equation now.

We both got to move forward right to the best of our abilities, right?

Or anything else for.

Think right now all fuck would be appropriate.

The interview ended, fred called his wife and son and told them that he was being arrested for the wild murder.

Sitting down.

although we messed up Shelley's first name calling, your sharing fed handover is pen belt, fold keys.

glasses and false tea take, okay.

We face the wall and held his hands behind his back. Terry cut him.

then let him matter. The room.

Going to go left to get up back.

I'd watched this interview on my laptop in an area ban being near my mom's house in arizona, SHE, and I hung out there mostly to avoid eighteen cats don't ask. After the video ended, I closed my computer. I heard from so many people that fred line was guilty, that this interrogation more or less confirmed IT.

But I saw something else playing out. Terry was implying the existence of way more evidence. And there was in the file.

I read the blood at the scene, the boot print. Friends seemed to take terrorist word for all of IT, believing that the police wouldn't lie to him. He was, after all, one of them.

Teris affidavit of probable cause included several quotes from fred quote, red lamb did IT not that i'm not denied that I did IT and quote, bottom line is I killed the girl. I've been listening for them the whole time. And sure they were there, but they weren't exactly in context.

More like sentence fragments were arranged ed, to appear more damming than they were. If I done that in a new story, i'd be out of a job. The case is pretty much taken over the airbnb living room at this point, old police reports and learn your books surrounded me. My mom had, of course, not read any of the case file that I had, didn't have the background on the evidence, but he had cut snip ts of the interrogation as I played from my computer, enough at least to offer a verdict to me unprompted friends is pretty guilty to her.