Ageless LeBron, Kawhi’s Crazy Career and NFL Draft Burning Questions With Zach Lowe and Peter Schrager
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when we're doing it. NFL drafts coming on Thursday. We have the Ringer NFL draft guide. We have Todd McShay's newsletter and his podcast. We have the Ringer NFL draft show. We have the Ringer NFL show. We're covering the draft in all these different ways. I'm going to be talking about it a little bit later with our old friend Peter Schrager, now at ESPN. Yeah, he's going to be on. But first, at the very top of the podcast,

I went to Lakers, Minnesota tonight, came back, raced back from the game and can give you my quick takes on what I saw in game two. And then old friend, Zach Lowe, now at the ringer, now at Spotify. We taped something earlier today about Kawhi Leonard because the moment had arrived. Let's have a Kawhi Leonard conversation. Then Peter Schrager talk a draft. This is an awesome podcast. Can't wait for you to listen to it. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. ♪ I'm waiting on my heart ♪

All right. I am taping just the top part of the pod here. It is 10 o'clock at night. Almost just got home from Lakers, Minnesota game to played in Los Angeles, California at the crypto used to be called staples. I still call it staples. It's crypto a must win game for the Lakers. They did win. It was a weird one. I really wanted to have like some sort of awesome take to play off of or some grand thing to say.

And I could do the first take thing and just list all the guys who need to step up. Nas Reed. Nas Reed, nine points. He's got to step up. Dante DiVincenzo, four points. You got to step up. I'm not going to do that. I have two takeaways. One slightly negative, one slightly positive. Other than the Lakers were supposed to win tonight. They took care of business. Their defense was way, way, way better. Their energy was way, way, way better. And if you look at the box score,

big minutes. Doncic, 42 minutes. Reeves, 42 minutes. LeBron James, is he 40 yet? 39? Somewhere in that vicinity. 39 minutes. Rui Hachimura, who got hit in the face, he's wearing like a Batman mask. 34 minutes. Finney Smith, 38 minutes. So they basically did a Tibbs on this game. Um,

And the positive comment here is just the LeBron stuff is just incredible. He's 21, 11 and seven big energy plays big defense. And I'm watching it going. This, this team is in basically the same situation the Warriors are in where they're going to have to go small to be truly effective. Right? The Warriors have Draymond who is this undersized center. You can kind of get away with it. And they're always at their best when Draymond's at the five, um,

And they can surround him with shooters and stuff and do that thing. This Lakers team by default is at their best when they're basically playing LeBron and Rui as the quote unquote centers, even though they're not centers. And they're just scrambling, hustling on defense. And they're just trying to protect the rim. They're trying to get away with the physicality that you can get away with when you have LeBron James and Luka Doncic on your team. And just be physical from the gate and just keep scrambling, keep trying, keep trying, keep having energy.

And LeBron was playing so freaking hard. I don't know if it came across the same way on TV, but he was playing like it was like a game seven when Minnesota was trying to come back there near the end. And I was thinking like there's been so many iterations of him over the years, right? Like he comes into Cleveland the first six, seven years and it's like, what is this? He's Magic Johnson crossed with...

Dr. J. That's what it seemed like. That's where we were headed. And then it's like, well, wait, he's more of a scorer than we thought. He had that 48 point game against Detroit. It's like, so the 1.0 version was like, what is this? Well, wait, there's some Jordan stuff here too. He's putting up 27, seven and seven every game. What is this? Then he has the four MVPs in five years.

And basically moves into like queen of the chess. I remember writing a column about it, like queen of the chessboard where he just masters the ability. He's like the Swiss army knife crossed with the best all around offensive player in the league. He can score when he needs to. He's setting people up. He's the best athlete in the league. And he's just mastered whatever version that is. Then he goes to Cleveland, puts on more weight.

Now he's got this weird post-up power game. And that's where he kind of moves through the mid-2010s there, where it's like, he's still the magic, not really Doc anymore hybrid. It's more like a magic Karl Malone hybrid with a little Jordan thrown in, not that much, but really magic in Karl Malone's body using the physicality. And that peaked in the 2018 season where he's bully balling anybody. And that's basically where

He's been he added the three point shot. So like the three point five version of this was that Carmelo magic combo with the three point shot. I don't know what this version is. And I don't know if he really knows either because they have this incredible offensive player on their team. Donchett shoot thirty one twelve and nine tonight. And all they're doing the whole game is trying to get Gobert to get switched on to Luca.

That's it. That's the offensive strategy for the most part. Where's Conley? Can we torture him? Oh, he's not in. Let's go after Gobert. And LeBron's over in the corner watching for key possessions. And it's really weird to watch in person because he still looks like LeBron. He's still as athletic as he was in his post-prime. He can still create his own shot. He still is doing all the same, looking for teammates, all that stuff.

And then there's times he just seems marginalized. You kind of forget he's out there for a couple of possessions and he's figured out always how to be involved in the game, even if he's not involved in the play and he's always moving, he's always hustling, he's using his brain. And it was really cool to watch. I was really impressed. So for them, he's kind of a little dream on D on defense, I guess, better, better rebounder. He had how many rebounds he had tonight? 11. Um,

Trying to protect the rim every once in a while and then just keeping energy, attacking, trying to get offensive rebounds and picking his spots. And when they need him, he missed a few wide open shots today, which was uncharacteristic for him. But I thought it was really cool to watch. And whatever balance they found tonight is just how they're going to have to play. And I don't know if it's sustainable, but when you think about it, I said this before, to win three rounds in the playoffs, you have to go 12 and nine.

So can this team be slightly above 500 for three rounds? Like maybe I, I personally don't think either of these teams are going to win three rounds. I think the, it's going to be okay. See Clippers, whoever wins that series will be in the finals. I still thought that before the playoffs. I think that now, but when you think of what they did tonight on FanDuel,

That's moved down to minus one 12, the Lakers, Minnesota was, uh, I think they were minus one 80 after they won game one. So this series is just swinging back and forth. And I picked Lakers in seven before the series. I will say this, and this leads to my second point, because I want to talk about Edwards for a second. Um, Minnesota has to win this in six. I don't,

I know, like I said on Sunday's pod, this team doesn't care where they play. They're not afraid of anybody. And I certainly didn't think they seemed afraid tonight. The Lakers just had more energy than they did.

But this is going to be a tough place to play a game seven because of how good of a, how smart of a player Luca is offensively combined with how smart LeBron is and just the way they can pick their spots, how the energy of the crowd can kind of keep sustaining them and how JJ now realizes I can't play Jackson Hayes anymore. I basically have six guys, six and a half backs. I just think it's going to be

a hard place to win with when they can always just default to, all right, Luca, where's Gobert? Let's do that again. And I think Minnesota, you know, they have three and four at home. The longer the series goes, the Lakers are probably just thinking, can we just...

can we somehow get this to seven? If we're just going to trade wins, whatever. If we have that seven at home, we would have so many advantages. They're so hard to officiate to, you know, the way that everybody's bouncing off everybody. So I still feel like this is seven. And if you're telling me these two teams are playing in a game seven from what I watched tonight,

I would still slightly tilt toward the Lakers, but you know, would I be surprised if Minnesota wins? No. So the first take is Lakers did their job today because there was another scenario this game where they go down 0-2 and it just feels like everything's gonna self-combust, but that did not happen. Second piece.

Edwards had a weird game and you know, he's young, but he's 23, 24. I can't remember. And you know, he had nine assists in the first game and played with the energy and pizzazz. I think he was hurt. Like the shoulder was bugging him. Basically didn't do anything. Wouldn't shoot in the first quarter as the Lakers are taking a big lead and ends the game. He has, I'm going to say zero assists. Yeah. Yeah.

25.0 assists. Ends up taking 22 shots, but didn't really shoot in the first quarter. This is the last level for him and he's not close yet. He might be two years away from me yet. And we saw him do it for a stretch last year in those first two rounds where he put together, I think it was seven, eight games where there was just a real mastery of the moment, the game, the other team, how to set up everybody, just how to impact the game for four quarters.

He did not have that tonight. I'm not surprised because I think, as I've said before, 26-27 is when I really think a guy turns into who they're going to be. And right now he is 23 years old. He turns 24 on August 5th. This is what they need from him if they're going to win three straight rounds because the conference is just better this year. It's just this. So you win this series. Now you're playing Golden State probably next round, I would guess. Maybe Houston if Houston crawls back, but probably Golden State.

And then after that, you're playing the winner of OKC and I assume the Clippers. There's a sense of the moment slash mastery for him that went a little sideways in the Dallas series and the conference finals last year and same thing this time where the guy that he's going to be that he's not yet, you kind of feel it in games like tonight. He just seemed young to me tonight. He seemed like a young, awesome player that

just seemed good that they won game one and didn't seem desperate in the right way. Right? And that's fine. That's where you won the game, you're going back to Minnesota, you win three and you're done and you get to the next round. But I think what he'll learn in situations like this, like when you're talking like 27-year-old Ant, the thing that he's going to learn that I don't think he really fully realizes yet is like this is a, you know, go for the jugular game.

This is like, if we go up 0-2, they're not going to come back. We're going to have three games in Minnesota. And he just didn't have that tonight. And again, I don't know how hurt he is, but it was a weird one from him. Minnesota also couldn't make a three. Part of that had to do with how the Lakers were scrambled around, but Minnesota finished five for 25 after they went like 30 for 40 in game one, I think. But

It was a game that Ant just couldn't match the intensity of the other team. Randall was ironically really good. He had 27. Physically, I noticed, especially in person, watching the bodies bang, because you always get a better sense of it in person.

He bangs with LeBron. He bangs with Luka. He's as big and as strong as Rui. He's as big and strong as anyone in the Lakers. And it actually seems like a really good matchup. The problem for Minnesota is the Conley piece. Conley, zero points today, 0 for 5. Had some wide open shots and just looked old. And they didn't really know what to do. DiFrancenzo got in foul trouble right away. But I'm still not positive who the best five guys are as a unit on this Minnesota team. And I think...

Not positive they know either. So I don't know what's going to happen in this series. It's really going to depend on two things. Can the Lakers get away with playing those four guys as many minutes as they played them tonight? Because I think they're going to have to win four games. That's one. And then the second is, does Ian have it in him to be the best player in this series?

Because I don't see another scenario that they win three more games unless he can rise up a level. He had that incredible dunk in the third quarter. That was breathtaking. But this feels like it's an Ant versus Lucas series. That was my takeaway tonight. I think LeBron is going to do what he did tonight, and he's going to...

You know, he, he's a fixed cost in this series. I know what I'm getting from him for the most part, the threes are going to come and go, but for the most part, we're going to get the energy and the creativity like we had tonight. Luca is the wild card because he might have, you know, he might have 45 points in game three. And then, and on the other end, what can he create? Um, and how much can they survive this weird go bear thing? He was,

really bad today. He was six and six, some Butterfinger moments, and they just kept attacking him and attacking him and attacking him. And ultimately, who's their best five? So this is why we love seven game series. This is going to keep moving and keep changing. But when I think back to this game,

during the summer i'm going to think of just how fucking hard lebron played i really respect it guys you know it's it's like the like the brady thing you know and brady was at the tail end of his career and he just the competitiveness almost went up because there's legacy stuff and you kind

comparing your career to like the best part is ever. And there's some sort of drive that has to kick in to keep the process going. And what we saw from LeBron today was really, I know the box score was pretty pedestrian, but man, he really gives a shit. I really respect it. We're going to take a break and we're going to come back and Zach Lohan and I are going to talk about Kawhi Leonard. The NBA playoffs in full swing. There's no better way to be part of the action with FanDuel, America's number one sports book. If you think you know how it's going to go down,

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Towing capacity varies by configuration. See Nissan Towing Guide and Owner's Manual for additional information. Always secure cargo. All right, taping this part of the podcast with Zach Lowe. It is 1220 afternoon ET.

So we don't know anything to happen in the Tuesday night games. We're gonna look backward, but look big picture. I wanna talk Clippers Nuggets with you, and I wanna talk about Kawhi Leonard with you. Clippers Nuggets is everything we want from a round one playoff series. Who do you think is gonna win this series, by the way, now that you've seen two games? - So I picked Nuggets in seven, which is your tell for don't feel great about it, went home court advantage and best player in the world.

And I listened to you and Ryan after game one. I felt exactly the same way you guys did that the Nuggets kind of stole that game. And I would feel really good about the series if I were a Clippers fan. And then they won game two. Obviously, we're doing this right after that.

uh i would feel good if i were a clippers fan i'm gonna stand by my pick obviously because you know i don't repick repick series halfway through but um i think clippers have outplayed them and if they're gonna have we're gonna talk about kawaii if they're gonna have one guy in each game and it was hardened in game one kawaii game two who's essentially like on par with yokich they're gonna win the series right they just need somebody to cancel him out numbers wise in some way um

They got out-rebounded by 18 last night and won. They survived a really great Michael Porter performance compared to his complete no-show in game one, and that didn't matter. But the Kawhi piece was the piece, and it got me thinking, you and I have known each other for basically Kawhi's entire career. I think we first...

met each other at least like on email or wherever in 2011, which is here he was drafted. I thought one of the best pieces you ever wrote for Grantland was the Kawhi George Hill trade piece, which was, I think, I just remember when you wrote it, I was like, this is, I feel like this is where basketball writing is heading.

Like, it's not just like, you know, this is like some sort of, it was sourced. Why did they do this? Where is this going? It was a sliding doors moment. I couldn't believe, I still can't believe they, like, multiple front office people talked to me on the record for that piece about, like, what was going on during the draft? What were they thinking? I'm like, well, maybe that's why. Maybe it was like a newish thing.

piece and they were like oh wait this will be fun let's do this interview and reveal like what was going on for this but i don't think that would happen anymore right that's what i don't think anyone's doing that again for some reason in the early 2010s people are like here's some information take it wherever worked out well for me so then kawaii he has a couple different arcs there's never been a career like this

And I said to you, just come on my podcast. We're not going to do an hour and a half. Let's talk about Kawhi Leonard because I can't remember really anything like this. I think it's the second biggest what if career of all time. I'm going to start there. I think Bill Walton is still number one. I think Kawhi's second where it's been a great career. He's making the Hall of Fame anyway. He was NBA top 75.

But there's this extra gear and it came down to bad luck and injuries, which happens so much in the NBA. But you see stuff like last night and you go back and you look through some of the history and you're like, could this guy have been like one of the 15 best players of all time?

Oh, there's, there's no, did he make top 75? I think he did, right? He did. So there's no question. He would be one of the top. He might already be one of the top 50 players of all time. He's a two-time finals MVP. He's kind of like the 15. Oh, I'm talking like, Oh, I'm talking high levels. So now you're talking, he's in the Durant, Barkley, Giannis, maybe heading toward where that Shaq Moses, a team level, like how high could it have gone? I don't know.

I just don't know. Now, health is a huge part of this. Durability is a huge part of this. And the best guys ever have always managed to stay on the court has been one of the things. And he wasn't able to do that, which is why it's a what if. But his best was up there with everybody from this century. No question. Two-time finals MVP, defensive player of the year, 50-40-85 in the playoffs.

And I did a little dig. I did some basketball reference sorting. I got some good stuff. All-time two-way wing, most valuable position in the league. Has multiple iconic playoff series, playoff moments, and one of the most iconic playoff shots in the history of basketball, the four-bouncer in Toronto against the Sixers. And again...

You never know, like, with these guys, like, all the time he's missed. If he had played all that time...

What if he had played twice as many minutes or 1.5 times as many minutes? How does he look right now? Because right now he looks incredible and fresh and all that stuff. But yeah, I mean, look, he hasn't finished the season healthy since 2020, since the bubble. He has not finished his team season available to play since the Clippers flamed out in the bubble. And knock on wood, we're only two games into this and he's playing a ton of minutes and he played a ton of minutes at the end of the season.

If he plays like this, like, I think we just get, did you just give up on this? Like, I just kind of get like when they lost Paul George in free agency, I was just kind of like,

He's going to miss half the season. It's going to be all dependent. I just didn't see the Clippers ever reaching this level again in this iteration of them, in part because I just kind of gave up on this. It just seemed like a pipe dream that we'd ever see this level Kawhi in the playoffs every game. And I really, you know how much I love Kawhi. I voted him MVP in the year Russ won the MVP when it was a super controversial vote. I think I was one of eight guys to vote for him. I thought he was the best player in the league that year. And

And I just hope we get to see this because what he's doing and just eviscerating every defender that they threw at him last night, 15 of 19 for 39 points is ridiculous. And the last basket of the game. Yeah, it was to put them up by three. Hard, hard shots, too. And a steal right after that. Contested shots. Right. It just...

What we saw last night in game two, which is why I want to do this segment, because I don't feel like it's possible to overreact to it. What he did last night was as good as I think I've ever seen him play. And this is a guy who's had some amazing, amazing moments. But yeah, I mean, if you go through it, there's so many what ifs with him.

Where you start with like, what if the 2017 playoffs when he gets hurt, right? I don't think they would have beaten Golden State. I think that's one of the three or four best teams of our lifetime.

But it would have been a good series We saw enough in the two and a half quarters Of that game to be like Okay, he's going to give them A puncher's chance in all these games They'll probably lose 4-2 or 4-1 But this isn't going to be like a walkover Like everything else they had that year Yeah, he's going to be throwing punches

What if he signs off on the 2018 Boston trade? It's a really good what if. Okay. When Boston was trying to come after him. Take me, that's your world. Well, that at least would have been Jalen Brown and some other stuff. And, you know, I think Boston was really hesitant to actually consider talking about it because he was making it so clear this is a one-year thing. I'm going to LA. And wink, wink, I'm going to a different city after when Toronto didn't care.

There's the what if Kawhi just re-signs with Toronto in 2019 because they had a pretty good nucleus. And you think the league was a little bit weird there in 20 and 21, 22. They won 50-something games the next year. They were one of the best. Did Nick Nurse win coach of the year that year? I think after, yeah.

There's the what if Kawhi signs with LeBron and the Lakers in 2019, which is what we thought was going to happen. And I don't even know, can they get Anthony Davis at that point? Probably, I don't know if they could, maybe they could have fit all this. I can't remember the details of it, but maybe if you get Kawhi, you don't need Anthony Davis and you're using those picks for other things. You're building around those two guys. Those two guys make sense together. What if he starts getting hurt?

Within a couple months after that trade, and now LeBron has no running mate. It's ridiculous to even suggest this, Bill. Nothing like that ever falls into the Lakers' laps. It doesn't happen. They don't just get stars that go to their team shockingly. It doesn't happen. What if COVID doesn't happen is a really good what if for really a bunch of different people in 2020, but especially when you think about where the league was at that moment.

Milwaukee was kicking everybody's ass. The Lakers and Clippers were the two best teams in the West. And it felt like there were three teams and then everyone else. And we were headed toward this LA versus LA. Then the COVID, the bubble, things get weird, whatever. And then

The last one is, what if he stays healthy in 2021 when he gets hurt and then Paul George elevates? I forgot this. He played 11 playoff games that year in 2011 and he averaged 30 a game in the playoff games. Seven against Dallas and four against Utah. Four against Utah and then kind of left. I went to the game where he kind of left near the end of the game. I was like, uh-oh, that's not great. Yeah.

Well, can we just stop for a second? Like, we shouldn't slow down on it. We should slow down on a couple of things. Yeah. The first one is the bubble and COVID because I picked the Clippers to win the championship that year.

And we learned pretty quickly even during the bubble and then after that no team wanted to be there less than the Clippers. And they just completely... I don't know that I've ever seen a team let go of the rope like that, like they did against Denver. Like they wanted to leave over trying to try to win the title seemed to be...

a feeling that was pretty pervasive. And 2021, he gets hurt against Utah. The series is 2-2 when he gets hurt and they end up winning the series. The end, essentially the end of the jazz of the Mitchell-Gilbert, you know, iteration. They had one more year after that, but everyone knew it was kind of over. We just, like,

I, that 45 point game six to save the Clippers season. And remember that series against Dallas, they get rolled the first two games in LA. They're down like a million points in game three in Dallas. And it just feels like it's over. They saved the season. They're still down three, two in game six. And he plays one of the best games I've ever seen anyone play. 18 of 25, 13 of 16 at the line, 45 points,

And the usual defense. And single-handedly wins the game and saves their season. Then he follows it up with a ho-hum 28-10-9 in game seven. That's one of the best games that's up there with any game I've ever seen anybody play. I just wanted to say that. Slow down and say that game. Well, and then you think from a Quipper standpoint, the most tortured NBA franchise we have. And 21 is just wide open. You look back at that season, it's like Bucs team that I'm not even sure was the best Bucs team. The Suns make it.

Right. And I think there's a bunch of teams that are like, oh, we could have beaten that if this had happened or this had happened or this had happened. And that ends up being our finals and the Bucks wins. But Bucks win. But I think the 22 Bucks team, you could make a case of Middleton's healthy that year. They're probably a better team than the 21 team. So anyway, a whole bunch of what ifs. From the what if career standpoint, Walton's still number one for me because he just wins multiple titles in the late 70s and goes down as one of the best 15 guys ever.

He, Kawhi is second. And then my other two for my lifetime are Andrew Toney, who really only played five years and then his feet went on him. But I just think would have been a hall of fame two guard and probably the second best two guard in the league behind Jordan. And then Bernard King was the other one, the 28, he's 28 years old when he blew out his knee. He's averaging 33 a game that year, which in 19 mid 80s standards is like 40.

and came back, but was never really the same, but was the, you know, he was the forward scoring Michael Jordan of that era. And then the only other one I have is Yao. I'm glad you brought up Yao because I want to bring him up later. Yao is the one where it's like, ah, man, we kind of forget that Yao only played like eight years. Ralph Sampson?

Samson's a good one. I don't... I'm not sure he knew where... Yeah, he got hurt, but I'm not... I've always felt like he spent four years in college and then it's like, am I a center? Why am I on the perimeter this much? I'm never sure he totally figured that out from like a ceiling standpoint. Yao could have been...

23 and 10 for like 15 years. But I think the China national team murdered him. And then there's some other ones. There's like the TMAC and C-Web. But those are guys like they had good careers and they got hurt a little bit later. But I think those are my five. Anybody else you have? Well, there are some. It depends how...

What if you want to, I mean, Len Bias. Yeah. So I'm glad you brought up Yao because I just did, I just did to point to your point about how unique Kawhi's career is. I just did a search on basketball reference people in the hall of fame.

with player efficiency ratings for their career. PER, everyone craps on it now. It's like a useful, like if I just need a catch-all, like was this guy good? How was he, right? PER above 22 for their career. Kawhi's regular season is 23.2, I think. Because I wanted to see how many guys, Hall of Fame, that elite level, and how many played fewer than Kawhi minutes-wise. I think Kawhi's are about 23,000 career regular season minutes.

There's only three guys in the Hall of Fame that meet that PER standard and played fewer minutes than Kawhi. One is George Mikan, okay, like original NBA dinosaur, but innovator, ABA commissioner, all that. One is Neil Johnston, 50s Philadelphia Warriors player, probably made your book of basketball. Bill Russell kind of took him out. And the third is Yao Ming. Yeah.

And so that was a name that I thought of right away. Even before I did that search, he only played 15,818 career minutes. But obviously, unlike Yao, Kawhi is a multi-time champion, multi-time finals MVP. There's just... And then you go right... And then there's a... Neil Johnson played 18,300 minutes. And then there's a 10,000-minute jump to the next guy on this list, and it's Dr. J, who obviously played in the ABA, too, so he's got other... Like, there's just...

There's a 10,000 minute gap between those two guys and Kawhi's right in the middle of it. Well, and then you think there's only three guys who ever won finals MVP for two teams and the other two are LeBron and Kareem.

I have my 42 club that I still stand by as one of the dumbest, but accurate. Is that the one that cuts off Carl Malone? Yeah, I got to 42 because it was the best way to cut off as many Carl Malone seasons as possible. Points, rebounds, and assists. Poor guy. Sorry, Carl. No, don't be sorry. If you go 42 club who made the finals since Michael Jordan, Shaq has three, LeBron has six.

Kobe once in 01, Iverson once in 01, didn't win the title. Duncan in 03, 45.4. Kawhi in 19, 45.4. Giannis in 21, 48.1. Jokic in 23, 53.5. And Luka last year, 47.0. Gives you a sense of, first of all, how great that 19 season was. But then also like, that's where we are. And the only outlier in all that is probably Iverson.

who just, he took a ton of shots, but wasn't like a points, rebounds, assists like some of these other ones. Even Kobe only made it once. And then the other thing with Kawhi, well, how many guys have gone from incredible glue guy to awesome A-plus list scorer? I was trying to think like SGA. Kawhi was a better glue guy than SGA. But where you thought their career was going to be one thing,

And then it became something completely different. How many guys can you think of who were like, wow, I just didn't see this because we, we were working together and we were going to those finals games. I never thought Kawhi would be a guy who averaged 30 a game in the playoffs. That was inconceivable. Well, I remember after the first Spurs heat final that the Spurs lose the Ray Allen game and all that, uh,

He had moments in that series. I don't have his game log up in front of me now, but he had moments in that series where it was like, Ooh, something, something's interesting is happening with this Kauai. Like he's, he's guarding LeBron like that. Okay, fine. Like he's a great defensive player. Actually, let me bring up his game log as I'm talking, but he's guarding LeBron. He's guarding LeBron comfortably, by the way. Yeah. And LeBron respects him already. And now he has games. I'm looking at here. Here's his last three games of the, of the,

those 2013, 13 or 14, 13, the one they lose to Miami, 16 points on six of eight shooting 22 points and 11 rebounds on nine to 14 shooting game seven, 19. I misses a big free throw in game six. Obviously people remember that 19 and 16 on eight of 17 in game seven, 45 minutes, 46 minutes a game before he has double digit rebounds in five of the seven games. And I remember before the next season,

I wrote a piece about this for Grantland. This guy is the biggest X factor in the league this year. And it was like the only time I think I ever got a one-on-one interview with Kawhi. I called the Spurs. I was like, hey, I'm writing all about this kid. He was a kid back then, whatever. And I remember their PR guy, Tom James, was like, this will be your one for the year. Don't call and ask for pop. He was being polite about it, but you know how the Spurs are. You're not getting popped. This will be the one. But I think it's a good idea. You should do it.

And then he ends up winning finals MVP, making me look really, really smart. But you could see enough in that first finals where it was like, okay, something different is going on. Something more is here. But again, to be an MVP candidate and a guy who, you know, we'll go through his playoff numbers. But even then, even in the 2014 finals, I don't think you could see that coming. He was kind of like MVP by you had to pick a spur.

And he was, you know, it was such a team win and he did, you know, LeBron's numbers are actually pretty good when you look back at that series, but he did a good job of at least going toe to toe with LeBron, which is why I think he won and his stats are good. He was in an interesting spot there the first couple of years we were working together where he was the go-to guy. If you were talking about, you know who I really love? And he was the guy like, who's that now in 2025 or the, you know, I really love LeBron.

It's like a Jalen Johnson, but on a better team. Could have been like Evan Mobley or Cade Cunningham before this year. Right, right. Maybe not even quite that. But he didn't have the pedigree of those guys, right? But it was one of those things coming out of the gate where they were like, yeah, there's something here with this guy. But I always thought he was going to be Pippen.

And Pippen was a better like kind of passer creator than him. He had the ball more than Kawhi did. But to me, the best still to this day, the best three perimeter players I've ever seen in person. And maybe, maybe a man Thompson can get here.

Wow. Maybe. I don't know. What is he, 22? But the best I've ever seen in person, Pippen won, Kawhi, and Rodman. Are you talking about athleticism? I need a long athletic perimeter to shut down this score. Who am I picking? Those are the three guys. And then after that, we can argue, but those three guys have to be

on the list. Is there anybody else you would add? For defense? I'd have, I'd have to sit and think about it for a second, but I mean, you know, Gary Payton wasn't big enough to, to be in this conversation, right? Like, is it, um, you're talking about guys who could guard everybody from LeBron James to Tony Parker. Like you just, anybody basically from six, one to six, 10, they can handle. And also maybe even like you could throw quiet yoke at this point. And it's not like crazy. I'll give you this one too. Um,

I sound like an old man. It's not that long ago, but he's still a very good defender now. If he were healthy and played the whole year, he'd be in the all-defense conversation. He's still that good. Peak Kawhi, like 2016 to 18, 19 defensive player of the year candidate Kawhi, was legitimately terrifying. And...

to the point that he would turn entire games, entire games by himself, like steal, dunk, block, dunk, steal three-pointer and be like, what just happened? Did that one guy just go on a 90 run? And I remember the most underrated playoff series, I think maybe anyone has ever played is that year. Um,

Kawhi against Memphis in 2017 in the first round. Like a ho-hum Memphis team. The Spurs should have won that series. He was incredible in that series and did everything for that team. And just like... People can go back and look it up. But I remember...

Remember the Ben McLemore thing? I think he ruined Ben McLemore's career because Ben McLemore tried to dribble within like a 10 foot radius of Kawhi and Kawhi just took the ball out of his hands two possessions in a row and went and dunked on the other. And I wanted to write a story about that. I approached Ben McLemore's

once and I was like, can I write this story? And they're like, eh, I don't think he wants to talk about that. Still not ready. But he ended up writing something different about him. He was a very sweet guy and had an interesting arc to his career. But like,

Peak Kawhi, if you were not an A-level dribbler, you could not dribble anywhere near him. He would just take the ball from you. Well, I remember one of my last pieces I wrote for Grantland, we did this art drawing because we were talking about how Kawhi was like an octopus. He hit this level the second half of that 2015 season coming off the finals MVP. And that second half of the season...

where there was a lot of storylines going, right? Like Curry, the Warriors are winning 67 games. Curry's about to win an MVP. Blake has become one of the best five guys in the league. LeBron's in his first Cleveland season. Harden is starting to really kick ass on Houston. And it felt like this sea change of like this new generation of guys taking over.

kind of taking the steering wheel of the league. And then Kawhi was in there just wrecking everybody. And I remember we did this octopus drawing of him and it's, you can find it probably in one of the last ground, but Kawhi's face on this octopus, because he would just kind of be on the court. He'd be like, I'm just going to take the ball.

And he would just go over and grab the ball. You could see the moment when he would decide, actually, I think I can just get the ball. You're dribbling it like everything's normal. How about I just take it? I'm just going to grab it. So that stretch he had on the Spurs, basically from the second half of 15, 16, 17, leading to him stepping on Zaza's foot, was...

He was as good as any. And we have Durant humming on OKC at that point. We have kind of the last stages of Carmelo. We have LeBron on Cleveland. We have a lot of good forwards. And it's just this amazing forward stretch. I have him. I was thinking most talented small forwards in my lifetime. Just talented. I'm not going best career in that stuff. And LeBron's one and Bird's two. And then Kawhi versus Durant, if you're just talking Apex...

It's a pretty good argument. That's almost a 3A, 3B thing. Durant's had a better career because he was more durable. I don't know the answer. It's actually kind of amazing and speaks to how great he was during that five or six year stretch.

that he's a six-time All-Star because it doesn't feel like he's been healthy enough in his prime to be a six-time All-Star. It's just when he's minimally healthy, it's so obvious that he's one of the five to eight best players in the league that he just makes the All-Star team every year. The Durant one is interesting. Durant's got the height and the quick twitch shooting from any range ability.

The bulk and defense and just you can't move him at all that Kawhi brings. Both of them are... Their assist numbers, Durant's probably a little higher, but broadly similar in that they're not a primary creator. They're more a secondary creator. It's... I mean...

Right, they're in the four assist range. It's an interesting one. Well, one other thing with both of them, there was a little bit of a Swiss Army knife with each where I felt like you could play Kawhi at either forward spot and get away with it, right? You could play Durant

I mean, it's not awesome to play him at small forward, but you can do it. But really, he has the ability to either go stretch five with him and just go smaller, or you can play him with a center. It was just more flexibility in a lineup than maybe LeBron had up until later in his career, where LeBron was like, he needed certain things around him. Those guys you could kind of mold. Whatever your roster is, you could kind of mold them a little bit. But I really think those are the four best players

quote unquote small forwards I've seen in my lifetime. Can I, these are, these are great names. Can I just do it? Read you another list of things I got from basketball reference. Do it. Searching around. I'm ready. I just did playoffs. These are playoff numbers. Again, PER is not a perfect stat. Good catch all.

Kawhi's career playoff PR is 24.3. It's higher than his regular season. Wow. That alone is an accomplishment, by the way. Well, for a perimeter guy, that's really high. If you can maintain your efficiency stat, if you're an elite player and you can just maintain your regular season efficiency into the better competition of the playoffs, that alone is an accomplishment. To go up a mini level is a big, big deal. So I did above...

24 PER, at least 4,000 minutes in the playoffs. Kawhi's at 5,009, I think. So you got to have been there a decent amount of time and you maintain a 24 efficiency, 24 PER. Eight guys total have ever done it. And I'll go in order of their player efficiency ratings. Number one, Michael Jordan, 28.6.

Number two, LeBron James, 27.9. Number three, Shaq, 26.1. Number four, I still think for my money, maybe the most criminally underrated player in the history of the NBA, Akeem Olajuwon, 25.7. Not by me, not in this house. Number five is a tie at 24.3. And it's just too good that it's a tie. Tim Duncan and Kawhi Leonard. Wow. And then right below them at 24.2 is Barkley.

who has the fewest playoff minutes of this group. And right below Barkley is Durant at 24 flat. And that's it. That's the whole list. The legend's not in there. I'll look up his playoff PR. I mean, I know I, I should have been, I should have anticipated. He, the last couple of years were a little Rocky wearing the back brace.

Career PR in the playoffs. Probably like 23? 21.4. Ah, the legend. Tough. But he's got a 26, a 24. I mean, it's different. PR is different, yeah. Well, I have my own basketball reference list. You had to play at least 20 games in a playoff season. Okay. You had to score at least 30 points.

Per game. Per game. And you had to get at least six rebounds. Here's that list. Sorry, so 30, hold on. 30 and six in at least 20 games. 20 plus games. You're making the finals. You're making the finals. Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaq, Kawhi, LeBron again, Giannis, LeBron a third time, Jokic.

That's our list. I mean, it lends, I mean, when you said top 15 earlier in the podcast, I mean, again, you're getting into sacred territory there in my initial. You're at least near Durant. Yeah, you're in that, you're above, you're right around Dirk. Yeah, you're in the Dirk, maybe a little edge above Dirk, and you're in the Durant area. It's pretty sacred territory, and now that we're going through these lists,

I can't argue against it. The what if is that severe and the what if ceiling is that high. Your guy, Hakeem, 95, 22 playoff games, 33 points a game, 10.3 rebounds, 4.5 assists.

If you're criminally underrating Hakeem, you can go to hell. You know who's not criminally underrating Hakeem from 1995? David Robinson. Or Shaquille O'Neal. Yeah, or Shaq. That's right. Or either of those guys. Yeah, a couple other quick things with him. Three first-team on-biz, three second-team on-biz. That's it for Kawhi because he kept getting hurt. You could say he's responsible. That's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a nice one.

You could say he's responsible for title teams in San Antonio, Toronto, and maybe Oklahoma City this year because he wants the Clippers. I'm only coming to the Clippers if you give me Paul George and that leads to, you know. Lots of stuff that's still going on. The last 10 years of the playoff games, including the two that we just had, 2016 through the 25 playoffs, he's 28 and 8.

51% shooting, 39% from three, 88%. 66 games. It's a 10-year stretch. Kept getting hurt. And then, oh, in the 2019 Raptors, 30 and nine, four assists, 49% field goal for the whole playoffs. But here's the other thing with him. And this is crazy. 733 regular season games total. That's his career, which seems low considering he was in the 2011 draft.

726 winning percentage all time. It's Tim Duncan 2.0. It's incredible the symmetry of those two guys. So here's the list. Magic, Bird, Casey Jones, Cooper, Tommy Heinsohn, Kawhi, Duncan, Sam Jones, Russell is our top nine. So a bunch of Celtics. When I play, my team wins almost 73% of the time.

And yet I can't stay on the court. And by the way, there are Clipper fans probably listening to this going, you motherfuckers, he's going to get hurt in game three because you guys did this segment. But there's never been a career like this where he might be

He might end up being like the best guy in the West for the next, you know, this round and the next two, which, you know, I didn't see you talked about giving up on this. I gave up on giving up on this. I was like three levels beyond giving up on this. Even when he came back during the season, I was like, all right, this is stupid. He's just going to get hurt. Even, even as you're watching the Clippers finish at whatever, 16 and four, whatever. They've had an incredible last 35 games. Yeah. And he looks incredible.

And you are saying out loud what is completely reasonable, which is that, in your opinion, this is the second best team in the Western Conference. And I'm watching it.

And I'm like, yeah, that makes total sense. And my brain just can't even, it still puts them over here in like a separate category of the standings just because I just never believed we would see it again. I just, I wouldn't allow myself to. And again, he hasn't finished a season since 2020, but I'm glad he brought it back to this year because I think this is the coolest thing happening in basketball right now. Yeah.

I don't know how far this team can get if he stays healthy and plays like this, but it's minimal conference finals. I think they could be, I don't know. I don't want to put a ceiling on it. Thunder are going to be favored against anybody. Um,

Well, I guess not minimal conference finals because they're in the Thunders bracket. So we'll see where they can go. But would you rather catch the Thunder sooner or later? Would you rather catch the Thunder after they've just completely demolished this crappy Memphis team and now all of a sudden they're moving up in weight class? And they need that one game to adjust almost? I liked Russillo's idea that if you lose by 50 or more in game one, it counts as two wins for the team. Yeah, they try to push that through. But I will say, like...

Not only is this about Kawhi, I think the Clippers are the team of the year, the franchise of the year almost in the NBA. I mean, the Thunder are the obvious choice because they won 68 games and they're just incredibly well set up for now and tomorrow to a level that no team has ever been. But for the Clippers to win 50 games and be looking like this in the postseason,

after they lost Paul George and everyone including me just wrote this entire era off is now we're just killing time until we pivot into a rebuild and we get our picks back. It'll be cool. We're saying like this, you're only doing this because you have a new arena.

This is fool's gold. You just want to bring people in and make them feel okay that they can recognize a couple players. And the front office was like, actually, I think we signed some pretty good role players in free agency, and we have a lot of faith in Zubats to make another level. And if Kawhi ever can play and we're doing our best, we feel like we're still like a pretty... And they didn't... I don't even think they expected it. I think they thought we could be like a cool 46 win, tough as nails, defensive oriented team.

And for them to be this is incredible. It's an incredible job by the coaching staff, Ty Lue, Jeff Van Gundy, the whole staff. I think they're like the franchise of the year in the NBA, maybe second to the Thunder, I guess. You can't undersell what an incredible accomplishment it is for them to be a 50-win team and going toe-to-toe with the best player in the world

in a playoff series in the middle to upper half of the Western Conference bracket. It's ridiculous. - Well, and they know they can play with OKC. They have a real identity, which I think is so hard to find, and there's two teams in the East that have an identity. - That's it?

Yeah, the Knicks do not have an identity. They just do not. Concerning first couple of games. They do not have an identity. Remember when we did that pod and I said Tibbs was my wild card? Don't be surprised. I'm feeling better about that prediction. Can I give you a third? This is supposed to be a wild card. Identity teams. Pacers. Pacers have an identity. No, good call. Okay, I'll accept it. Clippers have an identity. And unfortunately, it's built around...

this awesome player and they just kind of never know with him. I heard Marcus Morris today, I saw him on ESPN talk, because he played with Kawhi and he loves him. And he was like, Kawhi was the first guy there. The guy works his ass off. He gets this reputation that he doesn't, but the guy worked as hard as any team that I had. But if you talk to people around the Clippers and Kawhi is always this thing like, yeah, we don't know. He does his own thing. He's kind of over here

And we just kind of keep our fingers crossed that he's going to be awesome. The difference this time versus some of the other times, he just looks good. Like when you watch him, like his side to side stuff and the athleticism, it feels like it's back. He's got lift on his jumper. Like he made a couple of jumpers last night in traffic with a hand in his face and he's able to elevate now like he used to. And he just has that line drive shot. He can get over anybody. And he's such a weird player. There's no player like him now who's like,

I just want to get this 14 footer. I just want to get to my spot and get it. And I'm going to get it. And, you know, so that's why he's always been an elite postseason player, among many other things, is that there is some truth to the idea that in the playoffs, you need a little bit more than in the regular season, at least need some guys who can get those shots. And he can get like the last shot he made last night to put the Clippers up at 105, 102. I think it was. Yeah, it's the last shot of the game.

the last basket of the game. They ran a pick and roll to try and get Jamal Murray switched onto him. And for maybe the first time in the entire game, the Nuggets decided, we're not giving you this switch. We're going to hedge with Jamal Murray.

risk leaving the screener who I think was Norm Powell open and figure that part out. We're just not taking Aaron Gordon off you. And he was like, cool. Like Aaron Gordon is a tank. I'm, I'm totally cool with this. I'm still going to get to my spot. And he looked, he made that jumper from the right wing over Aaron Gordon. And it was vintage Kauai, the height, the trajectory, the ease with which he got there against a defender. Who's one of the only guys in the league who can match his size, strength, and athleticism. And it was just like walk in the freaking park.

Denver was basically an underdog heading into the series. Clippers were minus 118 favorites. Denver wins game one. I talked about this Sunday night. It flips just a little. So Denver became a minus 118 favorite. Whereas the Minnesota things flipped wildly. Now on Fando, the Clippers are minus 180 to win the series.

And honestly, if you tell me, no way to know this, but if you're like, Kawhi's playing the rest of the series and he'll be at the level you're seeing, I don't see how Denver wins. I also think Denver has some real issues. It goes beyond the Westbrook stuff. It's just rocky. Like you got to be, for what this Clippers team is with Kawhi, you have to be pretty sure of who you are and what you are and

The Nuggets, all they know is that Jokic is fucking awesome. And I don't think they know anything else about their team. Right? And they're beyond six guys. They don't even know who the seventh guy is. And he's getting frustrated too. Yeah. He's getting frustrated with the officials. He's...

Been pretty demonstrative, not in a bad way, but with teammates trying to point them in the right direction. Seven turnovers, missed some big free throws in both games, including two late in game one, only six of 10 from the line yesterday. Well, doesn't he look a little worn down to you too? I'd be worn down carrying it. I thought last night as a giant Jokic watcher, as I know you are too, but last night the guy seemed like he was physically beaten up last night.

You know, he's had 20 minor injuries, nothing major, but I sound like I'm making excuses for him. He sucked last night down the stretch. He was bad. It's funny you say that because I was, in my notes, I was taking on the game. I can't remember when it was in the game, but I'm paying very close attention to every Murray Jokic pick and roll, how the Nuggets decide to guard it. Yeah. Different ways, different, their default strategy has been X, Y, and Z. And there were,

Two in a row, I think in the third quarter maybe, where they didn't need to do anything dramatic. They didn't even need to do their sort of usual response to it so far in this series because Jokic didn't pop to three, which is dangerous for them, and he didn't roll into floater area for like a pocket pass from Murray, which is a danger area for them. So Zubac just kind of saw it. He just sort of stood there.

at the point of the screen, like 19 feet from the basket. And Zubats was like, oh, cool. I can just sort of drop back and play this like a normal pick and roll. And the worst case scenario is he gets a 20-foot jump shot. This is a nice reprieve. And I just took note of those because I was like, you don't see him do that very, very often. And I said in my notes, like maybe he's tired. He should be. He's playing 40 gazillion minutes every night on a team that needs him to do literally everything on offense for them to survive.

Yeah, he was four for eight from three last night. I just remember it triggered me in the memories of the Minnesota series last year when I just thought he lost his legs as that series went on because they were just absolutely murdering him game after game and they had so many big bodies to throw at him. Then by the end of it, the three-pointer started to go

When he starts missing free throws, I always feel like that's a bad sign. But I just think the burden he's carrying on this team, especially not knowing if Porter's going to show up or not. Porter showed up last night and rebounded. You did. I don't know if he's going to show up for game three. This seems like a team, and we've watched a lot of playoffs, and I'm even older than you. This seems like a team teetering on this could really go badly in these next two Clipper games. Or...

They'll just look, Jokic will be great in game three and be like, ah, what were we worried about? But I just feel like they're... If I go through every other team, the Knicks have real problems. We knew this. I didn't really change anything I thought of the Knicks other than I was surprised how well the Pistons have played. The seven and the eight quarters, they look good. They've won a horrible quarter and it's a 1-1 series. The Knicks, we knew they didn't have a bench. We knew they were going to have to play too many minutes with those guys. Denver...

I could just see this going any direction now. And I think the Clippers are better than them. So we'll see with Kawhi. But I'm glad we captured this moment because... Can I just add one more Kawhi thing that is too irresistible given that this is a podcast with you? I think about Kawhi 100 nights a year, 50 nights a year for this reason and this reason only. I don't even know if you remember this. After the 2017 season when Russ wins the MVP and averages a triple-double, you voted for Harden.

I believe, right? It was the most we've ever texted about an MVP. And you did a classic Zach rope-a-dope and you went, although I could feel you going toward Kawhi.

That was one where I just felt it in my gut. But anyway, so you voted for Harden and you're so proud of the vote that I believe you had them made. You or someone at Grantland had these shirts made. I should have brought it, but it looks disgusting now. What was that, Right Side of History? It's a white t-shirt and it says 2017 MVP, Right Side of History. And it has a photo of Russ and

and a photo of Harden and a check mark in a box next to Harden. And now that's been, that's in my pajama rotations. It's one of my pajama shirts. So I look at it and it makes me smile, but it also pisses me off because I have the wrong vote for me on the shirt. I need a Kawhi version of, I look at the shirt, Kawhi's not on it. It's the right side of history is James Harden. They're like, well, that's not my side of history, but I wear it anyway as pajamas. So I think about the 2017 MVP, like,

A third of the year because it's pajamas for me now. Did you vote for Harden second? Probably. I think so. I'd have to go look it up. I probably did, yeah. That was the year like LeBron was fourth and you just felt like this is insane or that this is the way this is breaking. How? Why? But that's how it broke. The LeBron MVP conversation goes every once in a while. The only one he has a case for after 2013 is the 18-1 when Harden beat him.

And the numbers were around the same. I voted for Harden too, but Houston won 65 games and, you know, Cleveland. LeBron spent six straight weeks pouting and giving everyone side eyes. And that's why he didn't win, which nobody remembers from basketball reference. Because he hated his team and was like, I need you to trade all these people. Basketball reference doesn't capture that, unfortunately. But that's the one that I think people mentioned, but Harden clearly should have won that year.

All right, Zach, you have a podcast coming Thursday, Thursday. We're going to recap everything that happens Wednesday and Tuesday, depending on which series we have time to talk about and look ahead to games threes and games fours. I think that's coming right off a Warriors Rockets game two, and it's coming right off Lakers. Wolves will have a couple extra days of rest. So we'll see if the Lakers are down to two, it's going to be DEFCON DEFCON one across the airwaves, baby. Let's go.

Are you on Kaminga Watch or have you just sold out your stock and given up? I'm going to keep the stock because I'm going down with the ship. I still... Tim Legler and I used to joke that we needed t-shirts made that we could wear on television and the t-shirts would have just said, John, I think Kaminga is good. Because we were both... We both would just be like, I don't understand. We think this guy's good. Warriors fans, it's incredibly polarizing. Some of them just think he stinks. I still think he's interesting and good, but I...

you know, if they're not dusting them off now and they're winning games, I, I kind of think the ship has sailed, but you never know in the playoff, the longer you stay in the playoffs, if they get through this series, you know, the matchups change, someone gets hurt. You never know. But I, I don't even think about him anymore. Sadly. I don't think Steve Kerr does either. Zach. Fantastic to see him. So glad you're with us. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me.

All right, we're taping this part of the podcast early my time on Tuesday morning because Peter Schrager is about to fly to Green Bay.

for the NFL draft. Why are we having the NFL draft in Green Bay, the single hardest city to get to out of all the NFL cities? Why are we doing this? So hard. Planes, trains, and automobiles. I think the NFL has decided that sunny weather and new stadiums get the Super Bowl, and then cold weather, Cleveland, Philly, Detroit, Green Bay, you get the draft. But yes, this will be a different destination than just a direct flight on Delta to Detroit like last year.

I forgot to introduce you as ESPN's Peter Schrader. Oh, yeah. The worldwide leader. You paved the way for me, and now I'm here. Here we go. What way did I pave? I started reading you back in 2002 at my college dorm on ESPN page two, and I said, someday I want to write for that website. I didn't realize that 23 years later I'd be on air doing it on ESPN, but I'm here, Bill. Let's go.

- What's the longest stretch, what's the longest day you've had? Like how many shows have you done in one day? Did you do a three show day yet?

I did. I'm about to experience what they call the car wash at the draft. I got my schedule. It's like, so Thursday morning, you're going to do Get Up, then you're going to do SportsCenter, and then you're going to do NFL Live, and then you're going to do, and I'm like, okay, all right, so we'll see how this goes. But I'm an egomaniac. I'm a narcissist. I like seeing myself on TV, and I'm cool with that. You love this stuff, though. You're ready to do multiple hours at a time. I mean, you were just on Get Up an hour ago, and now you're on this podcast. You're ready to go. No.

No doubt. I'm excited. And it's funny, like we're sitting in the get up production meeting and it's Marcus Morris and it's Damian Woody and it's Carlos Boozer. And we're talking about the Knicks and you know, I'm a diehard Knicks fan and I'm just like trying to stay quiet because I'm here for NFL draft stuff. And I just,

just spill my heart. I'm like, I just can't watch DiVincenzo hitting threes and Randall Bowie and LeBron and Hartenstein looking like he's an all-world center. And I'm looking at Carl Anthony Towns unable to score and Dennis Schroeder all up in everyone's face. So Schroeder, it's like, so they let me talk about the Knicks, which was fun. And I'll tell you, man, like...

All these ESPN shows, I was biting my tongue last week. It's like, if they don't get past the Celtics and the Cavs, is it a disappointment for the Knicks? I'm like, the Celtics and the Cavs, I'm petrified of the Pistons. And here we are, and you're going to go to the game tonight or whatever, and you're going to see DiVincenzo and Randall light it up again. And the Knicks had zero from Cat and zero from Mikael Bridges when it mattered.

Yeah, it does feel like the Knicks fans didn't have enough time to enjoy whatever the team that kind of blossomed last year was. And then all of a sudden it just blew up. I don't think, I personally don't think Tibbs is the right coach for the team that they currently assembled. And maybe we'll find that out after the year, whether they agree with me. But, you know, they played the two games against the Pistons at home.

And they lost seven of the eight quarters, basically? No doubt. And they didn't look like the better team or the better coach team. And, you know, campaign in the first game scores 14 and is like this huge spark plug off the bench. He gets three fouls early. We don't see him the rest of the night. And they had eight bench points, eight. And they're all from Deuce McBride. None of them of great significance. So as a Knicks fan, I'm sitting here and the series is tied at one, but I'm not exactly full of optimism. But that's what I bring to ESPN. That's what I bring.

Your multi-sport capability, passion, optimism. We're going to talk NFL draft, which we haven't talked about in the last five, six weeks as I've thrown myself into it. I don't even know where to start because on the one hand, it feels like a draft that can go chalk. You were on Get Up today reporting that teams are trying to trade up for two or three. Yep.

And we don't even really know for who, whether it's like a Travis Hunter play, is it an Abdul Carter play, is it? I just refuse to believe Sanders is a top three pick at this point. Even if the Giants wanted to take him at three, why wouldn't they just flip picks with the Patriots and try to get like a third round pick or anything? Why would they take him at three? Why not move back?

When I moved back one spot, I can't imagine in a million years, he goes three. I'm not even sure he goes in the first round. I don't think Shador Sanders was ever a top three pick. This is my big treatise on the NFL draft world and the NFL. Like I, I really value what Mel Kiper has to say. And like, yeah, Daniel Jeremiah is like the best in the business. And,

And all of these different pundits on TV, like for a good month there after the combine, it was like, well, you've got, you know, Cam Ward, you got Abdul Carter, you've got Travis Hunter, you got Shador Sanders. Like at no point in this process was anyone telling me that Shador Sanders was

was a top five pick or a top 10, you know, pick. And then even when the Saints, like nebulous Derek Carr injury, which I roll my eyes about, I don't know what's the story there, but Derek Carr is now- You think it was an ooh my arm? I think it's broken. I can't say anything publicly because then it comes out, but like that one came out of nowhere. I don't think the Saints saw that one coming. Derek Carr's shoulder and everyone's just like, ooh, Saints aren't going to take him. I'm like,

Guys, I think everyone's mistaking what we want Shador Sanders to be into what the NFL evaluators see him as. So here's my take on Shador. If he goes three to the Giants, this is one of those cases where they did all the work, they feel comfortable with him. And it's like, if we like him at 15 or we like him at 20 in this year's draft, we're

Who cares if it's not one of the blue chip guys? Take him at three. We've got our quarterback. We took him at three. We're good. This is the Bo Nix Denver last year, right? No doubt. You know what? We like him. We'll just take him 12. Can we get him at 28? Sure. Blake Bortles to Jacksonville. I remember that pick also. He went third overall. They took Blake Bortles third and it was a big spread. If we like him as a quarterback in the first round and we have the third pick, we're not going to get cute here. So that's it with Shador. We're recording this on Wednesday.

I could tell you there is a, there is a, sorry, what is today? Today's Tuesday. There is a meeting that's going to happen on Wednesday between John Mara and all of the brain trust from the Giants. And they're going to go through their draft board. And they've talked, of course, it's been fluid throughout, but like, this is one of those where does the owner step in and say, guys, I am not going through another draft year where we don't get a quarterback. If we like Shador, we're going to get a quarterback.

I'm okay with you taking him at three. I don't see it happening right now. I see a far more likely scenario being the Giants take Abdul Carter at three, and then they trade back into the first round and get either Jackson Dart or Shador Sanders. But just to empty the bag a little bit on this whole thing, the Giants have been...

to multiple Shador Sanders games. I know Joe Shane himself was at a practice earlier this year. They sent 13 people to the pro day. He came to New Jersey. They not only did a visit with him, they then took him out to dinner in Jersey. And then last week, they went back out there for a private workout, which I'm told went well. And Pat Shermer is his offensive coordinator at

you know, in, and he's got great relationships with Dable and Shane. So you've got like, if you don't want to look at the Dion side of it, there's also another voice in there. That said, uh,

Joe Shane's daughter goes to Ole Miss. He's been around that program a whole bunch. Joe Judge, former head coach of the Giants, also works for Ole Miss football right now. So there are people in the organization who are still employed by the Giants who can get the full story on Jackson Dart from Joe Judge, who still talks to those guys. Charlie Weiss's kid calls the plays. Brian Dable and Charlie Weiss, thick as thieves, have a long relationship. So as much as we want to say, like, well, they put all this time into Shador, it's not

They know Jackson Dart also. So I am not convinced that Shador is this quarterback the Giants are certainly being linked to. I think Jackson Dart could easily be that guy as well. Shepter had a tidbit about how, which I agree with, that some organizations slash coaching staffs would be afraid of taking Sanders because Deion is just looming over you as your replacement as head coach the moment you take his son.

which I think ties into what I see with the Giants. And, you know, I have some intel on the Pats. The Pats don't know what the Giants are going to do. And the Pats are heading into this draft prepared to not know up until the Giants are on the clock and then building out all their scenarios from there. But I think the intel a lot of people are having are you have the people who...

They might not be there in a year in the Giants, right? The GM, the coach. Well, they just, can we just take the best possible player and whatever? You have the long-term planning people who are like, maybe we could turn this pick into a bigger asset. And then you have the owner who knows what the family thinks. So you basically have three different sides, all who have these vested interests. Like what if Dayball's like, I'm going to get fired unless we take Sanders at three and he's good.

If Sanders is at three and he's good, I might keep my job for a little bit. He might also think the opposite way and be like, if we take Sanders, I'm definitely getting fired. No doubt. No doubt. I just think it's so interesting how many different agendas are going on and

what a mess they've been for the last decade, which is just a fact. The word is a giant delta on what Sanders' draft stock could be. And three is where it begins. And I will not close the door on the Giants at three because of exactly what you're saying. There's different agendas going on. There also might be different evaluations and there's different philosophies on, hey, if we draft Abdul Carter and he gets seven sacks,

and we're 5-12, that doesn't help any of us and it doesn't necessarily do anything to strengthen the team far greater than what they have, which is Brian Burns and Dexter Lawrence and Kayvon Thibodeau. They have defensive line. So it's not like this is some pressing need. That would just be, hey, he could be Micah Parsons or hey, he could be Lawrence Taylor. That's why you take him

up at three. But Miles Garrett might be the best pass rusher in the sport. There's been a lot of turnover in Cleveland since they took Miles Garrett. You get a quarterback and suddenly you say, okay, well, Dable's a quarterback guy. We've got to pay some time here to see this quarterback develop a little bit. That's why we have Russ. And then you kind of give yourself a little breathing room and say, well, there's obviously signs of development. I would also add with the Shador thing,

He could go three there. He could still be on the board at 34. So to me, this is one of those where, and I've said it and I get like, people get caught up in the comparison, but

Not since Johnny Menzel have we had a prospect where I walked into draft night and said, this guy can go first overall, or this guy doesn't even belong in the first round because of so many differing opinions. And my last point on, you know, Lamar had like what, like a 20 pick swing for where he could go. Like it would have been shocking if he was in the high teens, it would have been shocking to fill the second round. Yeah. And what's amazing about the Lamar one is that people forget the Ravens took Hayden Hurst at 22. Yeah.

So it's not like he was, they took a tight end and then they traded back and Lamar says, I'm going to get you guys a Super Bowl ring. And it's like, all right, well, sure enough, he's everything you'd want and more. But people forget that 30 teams passed on him, including the Baltimore Ravens. Well, that's the Patriots with Brady. They passed on him in the fourth round and the fifth round. No doubt. And then they took him in the sixth round. So it's smart, but you also passed on him. The Dion thing is interesting. So Shador Sanders has never played for a coach other than his dad.

Yeah. In high school and in college. Red flag. What's up? Is that a red flag or is that just weird? That's the question. And then it's, well, he didn't do that. He just plays for his father and, and, and that's fine. Um,

The other side of it is like Deion's shadow might be large, but like if you're a coach and you're that insecure, then you probably have your own issues. Mike Tomlin is the reason I would think Pittsburgh makes sense because Mike Tomlin's not going to be nervous of like Deion Sanders talking in the media locally about his son. That said, you go to a weaker coaching staff in a weaker market and they're one in seven and Shador's still not on the field.

Dion might have something to say. A couple other things. Wait, can I ask you a question before you do the couple other things? Yeah. What's the craziest team in round one that could take Shador that you think there's actually like a 1% chance it could happen? So it's completely insane, but also you could see it. Is there a team? There's two teams. Okay. Not at 11th.

But you're telling me Shador's still on the board at 30, 31, 32? And we've got Brock Purdy talking about where he wants and what he wants. Does San Francisco pull the plug and just say, screw it, we'll take two young quarterbacks. We'll see. We'll still sign for maybe. So not at 11, but maybe a trade back. Yeah. Okay. And then Seattle, who...

Gave Sam Darnold a three-year deal, but there's a lot of ways out of that three-year deal after the first year or second year. And if Seattle was to look at things and say, we like Shador, and let's just give ourselves some security here behind him, that would be two teams that I think that no one's talking about. That could be a possibility. San Francisco would be a giant leverage play just to press it

to Purdy and put him in a corner because those contract talks are going on right now. And I don't think they'd ever waste a first round pick to just make a point. I think Purdy is the guy they want. But you talk about him slipping, who knows? All right, we'll hold on the Niners because I want to come back to them. What was your couple other things that you had off this? You know, Deion...

has a lot of people that he's done work with and works with in the media. So I think there's been a little bit of like this sensitivity of, of being negative on Shador. And I don't know if it's, if it's helped Shador in the long run, because now if Shador doesn't go in the first 20 picks, it's this great slide. And it's like, but you know, Dion worked for CBS, Dion worked for NFL network for many years. Dion has obviously great relationships with Fox and he's got a show on Tubi. He's got a documentary on Amazon. Like,

We all love Dion who worked in the media at any spot with him. And like, I worked with Dion at NFL network. He's amazing. And he's like a great, great. So I think this whole lead up to the draft, the people who have been talking about the draft are careful because,

I don't know if that's done him any favors, if there is a slide in the draft. And meanwhile, people are saying like, eh, he might be Andy Dalton, Teddy Bridgewater, like that level. That's probably the ceiling. I think your guy McShay had some things to say out of the combine. And it was as if he had like, you know, said something about- McShay's been consistent this whole time. He just doesn't have them as a top 25 guy, period.

A hundred percent. And you know, for Todd to do that, that's him going out on a limb. I think some other people have been out there saying, I don't see him as this guy, but it's a lot safer just to say, ah, yeah, we like Shador. But when the rubber hits the road, who's going to be there answering the questions as to why is he slipping out? Listen, after, after Knicks last year, I just think that's the league now. If you like your guy, what, what,

Who cares? Who's going to remember 10 years ago what number in the draft he was? Like, if you want your guy, you want your guy. And if you talk yourself into a QB, which is the make or break position every year, you're going to do it. And it doesn't really matter where you take them. Three is too high.

I would also add this with the Shador thing. So obviously, all eyes have been on him, huge spotlight. They had reality shows at Amazon. Dion has the famous video of him with the amazing draft day look at Andrew Kramer in his living room.

I don't know what the plans are to cover Shador during draft day, but like, yeah, if there's 10 cameras in his living room and we've got, you know, wall to wall coverage of him, that tells me they know something, uh,

And if there isn't that, that tells me that this thing is still very undetermined. So I would almost approach the day of the draft and see, okay, well, let's see how much access we have to the Sanders family. Now, all that could be moot and they're doing their own documentary and maybe they're filming something that we don't even know about. They've already sold the rights to, to Fubo or to Netflix or whoever. But like,

These guys have never shied away from the spotlight. And I'd be curious to see how much spotlight and attention that they're getting or they're asking for on the day of the draft. Did Fubo come after you when you were a free agent? I'm waiting for the Fubo. No Fubo talks? No Fubo. Can we just all agree, and maybe I'm saying this selfishly as a Pats fan with the fourth pick in a three-part draft. The most fun outcome to all of this is the Pats and Giants flip picks. The Pats take Carter.

Sanders goes to the Giants at four and we just get to talk about that for the rest of the offseason heading into the thing. And maybe he's a little better than we thought. And the Giants fans will talk themselves into him almost immediately. Them taking Carter is just a weird pick. That's another piece of this. Like that team, that team has holes everywhere. I would say the only thing they don't really need to address in the 2025 draft is the defensive line.

They've got one of the better young defensive lines in football. You could argue Dexter Lawrence is the best defensive tackle in the sport. And then Thibodeau is entering his fifth year. So obviously he's got a contract situation that's looming. And then on the other end... Did you pay for Burns? Burns, they spent a lot of money on Burns. You're almost like, do you take Carter? Maybe you shop Thibodeau at that point and you decide not to pay him. Like, I...

For a team that has holes everywhere, it just seems like such a weird pick to me. But that's how top pick of this draft is until we get to Jenty, who's the wild card of everything. I want to talk about that. Let's take a break quick. All right. Jenty, the running back. Just a beast. He's doing the thing where he's just calling out teams. If you take me, I'm going to be awesome. Here's my letter. Here's my promise. It's a position that

You think back to when Zeke Elliott was in the draft and he was awesome. That was 2016 and he seems like he's 100 years old now and he's like 31. It's a seven, eight year shelf life. You might get the guy in the rookie contract plus one more contract. If you get eight, nine, 10 years out of a running back, it's amazing. And yet he has a chance to be immediately one of the top five guys at his position.

Now it's a position that when you're paying for it, when you see like free agency and you see the numbers different positions get,

What did Barkley get? What was his last contract? Like 16, 17 a year? Yeah, he got a new extension from the Eagles. It finally got made whole. 16, 17 range? It was 12, yeah. So McCaffrey is like somewhere in the 12 to 14 with some bonuses? Yeah, McCaffrey and Saquon both are like 16, 17 right now. Right, so the high end is 16, 17. If I have one of the top five left tackles, that high end is...

you know, in the high twenties. If I have one of the best nose tackles, that high end is what the Patriots played Williams. That's, you know, that's in the mid twenties. If I have a cornerback or a receiver, cornerback might be high twenties. Receiver, the market now is like low thirties. Quarterback is 50. Edge rusher, that's in the thirties now.

So I look at like where the Pats are picking at four and it's like, you can take Jenty. You have a top five guy at your position going forward, but it's a position that is valued at 13 to 16 million a year at the highest possible end of it. But if you take the edge rusher from Georgia and he's good,

that's now like a $28 million a year guy. So I don't understand why teams don't just think this way. Like what are the best players worth in our salary cap and why don't they just shift their drafts that way but they don't think that way? Well, they're not thinking about the second contract. They're thinking about the first one and if you get a guy who can get you 10 sacks to 15 sacks in the first round and you're paying him

rookie numbers for the first four years, well, then you're getting the biggest bang for your buck. And eventually you have to... You're getting an $8 million guy that's worth 28 who's getting you 15 sacks. That's why I would just be talking about this constantly if I ran an NFL team. That's why the Will Campbell thing

If Will Campbell goes four and he's the 15th best left tackle in the league, it's like, that sucks. We don't even have one of the best 14 left tackles, but he's still worth like 29 million a year as a left tackle. And here's, here's the, and like everyone I've spoken to is obsessed with Jenty. Right. Teams. Like it is a home run. This is, there is no holes in his game. The, the,

The pushback I got last night... Like a rich man, Jameer Gibbs, basically? Yeah, and he's so small to the ground. His way he runs, he does the upright, and then he goes low. You cannot bring him down. And what he did in the college level, there's a lot of stuff about him that you'll want to run through a wall for. The fact that he was offered crazy money at NIL going into his last year, and he's like, no, I've got a job to do at Boise. I'm staying at... That stuff...

It goes a long way in today's day and age of NIL when these coaches and GMs are talking to players who've been to four colleges each to take the more dollar sign, you know, each time. Right. It's like my guy, Drake May in North Carolina. No doubt. My home is here. You had to finish it out. My little kids are here. That's it. It's planting roots. Here's where the rub, the pushback is.

Last year, there are all these running backs in the draft. Do you know who the leading rusher of all the rookie running backs was? It was Bucky Irving, who was a fourth-ranked pick. Wow, that's the problem. The second leading rusher of all the rookies was Tyrone Tracy for the Giants, who quietly put together a 1,000-yard season while everyone was crying about Saquon leaving. He did basically what Saquon did the year before in that Giants offense. Yeah. Yeah.

So the opportunity cost of missing out and the gap of, okay, well, you know, we get Jenty, he could be amazing. And Jameer Gibbs was behind the best offensive line in football. And in a lot of ways, Saquon last year took this giant leap, not because, yes, Saquon's amazing, but he also was behind that Jeff Statlin offensive line and it was a perfect fit. If your team has a ton of holes and your offensive line isn't great, taking a running back when you're

Oh, I don't know, a left tackle or a pass rusher. However, Bill, this draft, there's three great players in this draft. And I will say that there are three great players. It's Carter, it's Hunter, and it's Jenty. So if there ever was a year where you take a guy in the top five at running back, if you're Jacksonville, close your eyes, you take Jenty, you put him in there, you have your running back, and then you deal with everything and you know you have that guy because at five,

Mason Graham or Ted McMillan? Those are questions. Jenty is a sure thing. This guy is awesome. So this is the year for a top five running back because of the rest of that class up top. Here's the problem. I just was looking up as you were talking the 2023 draft. Let's go. Bijan goes eight to Atlanta. Solid pick. Everybody was like one of the best running back prospects of the last decade. This guy's awesome. I like it. Jalen Carter goes ninth.

Yeah. What's a more important position? Who's going to make more money on their second contract? Like you think, and it's like, now you look back and you're like, wow, that was stupid. Now there are reasons Jalen Carter fell to nine. Look, who'd the Raiders take at seven that year? Look at that. Tyree Wilson. Yeah. So you pass on Jalen Carter for Tyree Wilson. However, Bill, if you put Jalen Carter in Vegas, is it the same situation? I don't know. It's a great question.

Jameer Gibbs goes 12. You were all excited about it. We were doing podcasts that year and you were like, this is an amazing pick. This is like a toy for the Lions that this weapon they just get to use and move around. I think the difference with Jente that would really fuck with me if I was in a draft room is that he's just three downs. You have a guy who doesn't basically have to come off the field to

who can play however many downs, touches, whatever. Yeah, look at the Patriots. They don't have enough left tackle. If they had him and Drake May, does this become Peyton Manning, Edgerton James for seven years? And you can keep him on third down. Now he's probably our best receiver on the field anyway.

I don't think they should take him at four, but I'm sure they've had the conversation. But it seems like if he goes to the Bears at 10, I wonder if that's like a Gibbs kind of toy situation. Like, whoa. I don't see him going past 10. I don't either. I look at New Orleans at nine. Kamara's in the last year of his deal. And, you know, Kellen Moore, new coach. That's a tough B for New Orleans, though, who has 40 holes. Yeah, no, I know. But what's your identity going to be? Your first...

pick of the new coach. Like what, what are you going to be? If Jenty's there, I like that. I, I mean, I like it. I like it at six, obviously. I think there's a little too much about the Raiders that, that tells me if they're talking about Jenty so much, usually. It's a little smoky. But to me, five, Jacksonville, James Gladstone, interesting guy.

34-year-old new GM from the Rams and Liam Cohen. Schefter had it in his column on Sunday, and I've heard the same thing. They're going offense. What's our identity going to be? Now, if you're James Gladstone coming from the Rams where character was everything when they did their board and they had a whole philosophy, and I've been in the room with Les and with McVay, and it's like, what do we stand for? Ted McMillan, great player, great kid,

The questions are, does he love football? Is his heart in this? He took plays off. Is that going to be your first pick as a GM of a team? This is what we stand for. This is my rep, Ted McMillan. This is my guy. I don't know.

Ashton Gentry, you can look at everyone in that room and say, this is what we're about. This kid right here, this is what we stand for, and this is what Jaguars football is going to be. So I think he could go as high as five. First guy in the locker room every morning, last guy to leave. Worrier. I don't know why we haven't heard more about the Patriots taking him.

You know, to me, their team has been lacking offensive firepower. And if Campbell's not Orlando Pace or Jonathan Ogden, then why is he such a slam dunk? So to me, it's not my pick. Elliott Wolfe and Mike Vrabel will make it. And I hear that there's a lot of love for Campbell in that building and great.

um abdul carter would be a wonderful selection at four as well but like for whatever reason genti has been like crossed off the list from patriots but then the jaguars it's like yep that works for us couple things in campbell's favor just in general van lathan giant osu fan absolutely loves him thinks he's a warrior he was in the escc just battling i'll give van credit he was big on brian thomas last year van and jayden daniels was another one he absolutely loved jayden daniels fans been good i

Is he big on Nas Reed? Because I didn't see Nas Reed being this out of LSU. And Nas Reed doesn't miss a shot. I don't remember his Nas Reed takes. Campbell, so he shows up, what is he, 18 as a freshman? And he's just immediately thrown into the fire. Like a man's man, leader, played every play, tough as nails. I heard this tidbit about Vrabel. I don't know if you've heard it. Okay. And it seems insane and I loved it. And I'm going to share it here. Apparently when he's working out people...

He has this thing about body mass and feeling like banging bodies.

if it's the right kind of player that they're looking at who actually put on the pads and bounce against them to feel what their body's like. Like he's a big, how sturdy are you? How physical? Dude, he's done it at pro days. Okay. So you know about this. He'll do it publicly. There's no way. He's been retired for 50 years. He'll do wrestling moves with the player and get him in all these weird positions to see how he reacts. No, it's real. Okay. So,

I would say like Will Campbell, who poor Will Campbell, that his arms aren't an inch longer, right? It's an inch is like this big, by the way. And it's like, oh,

Couldn't get to 34 inches. I don't know. Meanwhile, there's a bunch of like Sean Slater has been pretty good. Yeah. That was the knock on him. Joe Thomas has been okay. Yep. But it just feels like Will Campbell, I could see Bray will put in the pads on him and hitting him and be like, yeah, this is my kind of body mask guy. I just think they're going to take them. Yeah. And it's like, look, if he, maybe he won't ever be that one of the eight best left tackles in the league, but this is a guy who would be, he's going to be a leader. Yeah.

He's durable. And he will be in the top half of left tackles, which is all you need because you can't find them. They're not falling out of trees, period. Is it a great failure and a great disappointment if a year in you're like, he's a good left tackle, but gosh, he's an amazing left guard.

And do we move him inside? And do we put someone else on tackle? Could you be a four-time All-Pro at left guard? Is that a loss? Quentin Nelson went sixth overall. Is Quentin Nelson a loss for the Colts? No. No. No. He's great. He was the best at his position for a decade. I think he'd sign up for that. But that's what, when you're picking fourth, or you're picking fifth, or you're picking third, if you're in the top five, I have to get a blue chipper.

And the only way I'm not doing that is if there's some quarterback that I'm doing my 50-50 coin toss on. And Bill, last year, Malik Neighbors was a blue chipper. Joe Ault was a blue chipper. This year, I hate to be so dismissive, and I think it actually adds to the intrigue of the draft. They're just not there. You can't make Will Campbell into a blue chipper. You just can't. So he's looked at as that. Would that guy from Pittsburgh who nobody had ever heard of, who signed as a free agent,

The left tackle. More? Yeah. Yeah. Didn't he get like 20 million a year from somebody? Yes. And everybody was like, we're not sure he's a starter. So when you think of it that way, if Campbell could just be the 14th best left tackle in the league, if that's his ceiling, it's like, well, that's probably a $29 million player.

- Armand Membu, Armand Membu, no one had ever heard of, and that's dismissive, I shouldn't say it that way, but he was in the conversation. - No, no, he was a fast riser though, there's no question. - He was definitely coming on strong, and then the combine was an absolute revelation. So if you're talking about arm length and that stuff, and Campbell maybe, Membu's a tackle, he's a pure tackle, and he has huge upside.

I would always take the pedigree of the blue chipper who's done it, but I'm the same guy who would have taken Mac Jones over Trey Lance. I like knowing what I'm getting. And you look at some of these teams, like the Chargers last year, their first four picks were out of Notre Dame, Michigan, Alabama, USC. That's what they do. Membu comes out of Missouri, doesn't have the same pedigree, doesn't have the same sort of resume. I'm

But is this physical freak? Where do you stand on Membu versus Campbell, who you know what you're getting with Will Campbell. It's solid. It's a guy as solid as a rock, but he might not ever end up being, like I said, an Orlando Pace or a Trent Williams or a Jonathan Ogden type. Obviously, I've done a lot of Membu work. I have two questions. One...

Did Vrabel put the pads on with him yet? Bang and feel him out and put him in some wrestling moves. Does Vrabel like his body mass? That would be one. I do know this. I do know this. The Patriots have been doing work on Membu and this is this week. They've made some calls and they've been asking around. So that door is not shut yet. So this is what I know and what I've heard with the pads. Where...

There's two types of players you're picking, right? And Belichick, I think his mistake, especially over the last 10 years, was he would default toward these winning programs. And you're getting guys from LSU, Alabama, who have already been maximized because those teams have the greatest possible college coaching staff. So you're getting somebody out of there and they've already been really well-schooled. They've been, whatever's in there, a lot of it's been pulled out. And that's why it's safer bets to take some of these guys, right? Yeah.

The question for the Pats is they have an awesome coaching staff now that they feel really good about.

And can you look at some of these guys from schools that maybe weren't the greatest, maybe didn't have like a defensive coordinator making $2 million a year or whatever. And maybe there's some raw gem stuff for it there. And it's like, well, what happens if we take this raw, awesome piece of something who's already has blue chip talent and we pull him into our universe and we coach him up?

I think that's what Washington thought last year with some of their guys, right? They thought like they went and got these B-list veterans, put a bunch of like smart, just tough vets, and then kind of took some chances on, eh, that guy was never in the right situation. Let's give him a test drive because we love our nucleus. I think that's how the Pats are feeling, which is why I think Membo can't be ruled out at four. That's really interesting. And the...

the Washington approach, which was Adam Peters, who has a history with New England,

- Yes. - Was exactly what you said. Let's get a veteran for every position group. And that was Zach Ertz and Austin Eckler and Marcus Mariota and Frankie Lou Vu and Zach Ertz. You go through all these guys that were not hot created. - But let's also get assistant coaches. - No doubt. - Who are overqualified at all these different spots, which is kind of what the Pats are doing. - And then they took a guy like Mike Sanestrell in the draft who everyone was like, well, he's a nickel, he's not really worthy of having. And then he was an all-world rookie for the Commanders out of the gate.

I'd push back on the Patriots thing. At the end of Belichick's stay, it was like Kyle Duggar from Lenore Rhine, and then he took Cole Strange. Right. Well, they went older. That was a new strategy near the end. Older guys who they could come in right away and be plug and play, which also didn't really work that way. I'm curious about the Patriots. I do think, my report today is real. Cleveland is getting Coles.

Does Cleveland just say, you know what? We're not a Travis Hunter away from being relevant. They should 100% trade back. What are they doing? And the Giants have no chance to win a Super Bowl for three years. No doubt. No doubt. So don't be shocked if Cleveland on Thursday, we're on the clock. Well, Cleveland's traded. And then some aggressive team that is a couple steps away made the move. And because it's such a

kind of depleted draft. And because it's not a quarterback, it won't be the same bounty of picks that you usually get to move up to number two. Yeah, but who, what team is that? Because if you go through it, it's not anybody else in the top five. It's not, I don't think it's the Raiders. I don't think it's the Raiders. It's not the Jets. The Panthers are too far away. Like you have to move up for Abdul Carter.

Maybe. If I were them, I wouldn't. The Bears were the one I was looking at as a move-up team. The Bears are a trade-back team, I think. The Bears are a trade-back team. Because they have some talent. I look at the Niners. The Niners window, right? Now, they've done this before. They went up and got Trey Lance. I don't see it. I don't see any of those teams in the top 15 being a, whoa, if we get this guy. Do you? Miami Dolphins? I don't know. I'm just throwing out teams that are playoff...

team that didn't have what they thought they should be that are still in the waiting list. The only team that does seem crazy to me is the Raiders. Just because new coach, new coach, new GM, mid-70s, Tom Brady making a splash. They fall in love with Hunter. They think he can play both ways and...

Um, wait, are you, do you, from what you, you talk to everybody and you do the on, on the record, then off the record and you love hearing like little tidbits about character and all the, all the stuff that sometimes you can't even use injury stuff. Is anyone worried about Carter and, and look, there's stress coming out foot. It's not a stress fracture, but it's not great either. Like, what is that?

I'll say this. His dad, like there's like all this stuff you're hearing about. You're on it, dude. It's Travis Hunter. It's Abuka out of Ohio State. It's Jenty. And you hear about Jalen Walker. These are amazing kids. Then Carter comes up and it's

Guy can play and he was tough. So I think there's some stuff about, you know, is this the all world guy? But I'll tell you what, Charles Haley wasn't the all world guy and he won five championships. Well, listen, if you're a great edge rusher, you got to be a little selfish. And at that position, it is what it is. You're not going to be a team guy. He's trying to get the quarterback. That's it. The Giants passed on Micah Parsons a few years ago. They traded back.

And they ended up getting Kadarius Tony and they got an additional pick the following year. It's an all-timer. It's an all-timer. And it's really the original sin of this generation of the Giants. That and the Daniel Jones contract extension. If they were to pass on a guy who legitimately, not because they were the same number, not because they went to the same college, is compared to Micah Parsons, the way they used to met Penn State, the way he went into his coaches' life.

office, you know, that final year. And he looked at James Franklin and said, I don't want to just be this, make me a guy who plays off the ball. Let me do all these things. And then did it at a higher level than Parsons in college. Like it would be an incredible, incredible mistake made twice, at least in my eyes. I don't think you pass on them. Even if you have all these different pass rushers already that said,

There is the injury stuff. Didn't compete at the combine, didn't do it the pro day. So if you want to make that a red flag, fine. And then off the field, it's not like, you know, this guy is necessarily marrying your daughter. That's what they say. Now, none of that is criminal. None of that is this, but that's just the word around the street is that he's not the same type of, wow, you want to wrap your arms around him and give him a big old hug like Travis Hunter. It makes me like him more. I know. That's my pass rusher. I don't need him to be trading jerseys after the game. I'm good. All right.

So you be the Giants and I'll be Vrabel. Who's taking the phone call for the Giants for a trade? Joe Shane. Okay, you be Joe Shane, I'll be Vrabel. Okay. Joe, how are you? Hey, what's up, Mike? You know what you're doing at three yet? You know, we still don't know. The truth is, I'll let you know when we do, but we're leaning towards Carter, but the door is still open. What do you got? I have an idea. We can flip picks three to four. I'll give you my second next year draft

And I'll give you my fourth next year. And you just move back one spot. That's my offer. And also I'm willing to talk about it a little bit. Who am I taking at four? If that's the case, am I, what is your, what are you implying? It's I just, if you like Sanders, why do you have to take them at three? Take them at four and get some stuff back.

Interesting. So this is what the Niners and Bears did a few years ago. I'm still playing Joe Shane, just giving a history lesson. For Trubisky, they said, okay, we'll move up one spot. We'll move back. We'll take Solomon Thomas, get a little extra. What was the little extra for that? I can't remember for Trubisky. Wasn't that much, right? It was like a second? Wasn't that much. I believe it was a second round pick and the Niners were doing flips. What happens if you, Joe Shane, comes back and says...

I'll flip spots with you, but I want your first next year. I'll give you my third. Mike, what happens if we do this? I will flip spots with you, but I need next year's first. What would you say? Give me a third back and it's a done deal. Okay. We've got, I think, the 104th pick. So you're saying I give you the third and the 104th and I get next year's first, next year's second, and a fourth this year? You want my fourth this year too? Yes. I need another pick. Jesus. Okay.

I got to hang up. I got to talk to Kraft. I got to talk to Kraft and yell at him for not tanking week 18. I got to hang up and go scream at Drew Locke for throwing for 200 yards against the Colts in week 16. Yeah. See, the Pats need so many things. They're probably better off just staying at four and taking Will Campbell. But if they think Carter is Michael Parsons and the price would be flipping picks with the Giants...

I think the Pats are going to be good next year. I don't think they're going to win the Super Bowl, but I think they could go 9-8, 10-7 if they hit a couple picks. Roster's better. Coach is better. If they think they can get a left tackle who can start next year at the top of the second round, I think you have to think about trying to trade up a spot. And I can't believe they're in this position because Buffalo out-tanked them, which I'll never get over. No.

Buffalo didn't play. That was crazy, that Buffalo game. That was nuts. Buffalo was making the playoffs. Somehow that tanked us. Joe Milton just looking like Dan Marino out there. Mike, wait. Just hand the ball off and the guy's going to fall down. I have some lingering questions. Last year, the shocker was Pennix. Yeah. If you had to handicap this, what is the Pennix bomb of this year? What is the shocker?

You just had to have one guess. Guy's name is Gray Zabel. Has that name come across your board at all? I haven't done a lot of Gray Zabel work. What is that? Offensive guard at a North Dakota state. In the last 72 hours, I've gotten multiple calls from teams looking at my mock drafts. Here's how I do it. I talk to people, I put together a mock draft and I send it to all

all the teams. I'm like, what am I missing? Who am I missing? What are you hearing? And a lot of teams will tell me, we actually like this guy more than this guy, so just put him there if you want. I'll throw you a favor, throw you a bone on that. Or, where is this player? And unanimously I'm getting, where is Gray Zabel in your top 20? In the top 20? Watch for Gray Zabel out of North Dakota State to suddenly be one of these guys who goes like 15, 17, 18, 19, even if it's early 20s.

a player who at the senior bowl played well, and then you didn't hear from him again. And he's an offensive guard, but he's looked at as like one of these maulers and in a draft full of just meh. He is one of these guys that they think the sky could be the limit. So that is my wild card. You think Vrabel put the pads on with him? Vrabel might want to wrestle with him a little bit. Put him in a headlock, see what he's like. So you have your mock draft coming on Wednesday. Yep. And this has been a mock draft that has been very successful by mock draft standards.

So you send, you'll send like little, Oh yeah. You'll send spots to teams and do who's missing. Oh yeah. What jumps out at you? I'm looking at my phone already. It's, I sent to Howie Roseman this morning, Adam Peters this morning, uh, with Washington, John Spitek at the Raiders. And some of them won't respond. Um,

Or someone will say, we actually like Memboo more than this guy. Or they'll say, hey, why do you have Will Johnson from Michigan going in the mid-20s as opposed to top 15? What are you hearing? And then in exchange, it's, hey, you're missing Gray Zabel. Or what about the Oregon tackle? Gray Zabel almost seems like a fake name. Gray Zabel. I'm going to get the jersey for you.

It's like, yeah, there's this new HBO show starring Gray Zabel. Have you seen it? I have one draft take about a top 10 guy. Let me hear. Now, granted, I parachute in and I barely watched college season. You're good, dude. You're good. You love this shit. I think I'm pretty good about whatever. I've had some good moments over the years. Tet scares me. You're not alone.

Here's why, because the Pats who have done the worst job ever of drafting receivers since forever. And here's where I've landed with receivers. And it sounds stupid, but it's really not. I just want guys who are open. When I'm watching the clips, the guys are wide open. I want speed and I want the ability to get open. These guys, he's a big guy. He's unbelievable. Catches in traffic. Nobody uses his body.

I would just rather not take a chance on those guys. We've had those guys. Like we had the Nikhil Harry. I don't, I think when you get to the pros and everybody's more covered than they were in college and guys are just have people draped around them all the time.

I just think it's harder to succeed. I just want speed. Like the Chiefs don't do this. The Chiefs are like, let's get Xavier Worthy. He's fast. That's his guy. Guess what? We'll run plays for him and he'll just be open. And then our quarterback will throw him the ball. Ladd McConkie was another one. It's like, ah, what is he? It's like, I don't know. He's always open. That seems positive. I just, I wouldn't. Now, if you were in the teens, it's different. But if you're talking about like Jacksonville at five,

and it's a guy whose biggest skill is how good he is in traffic and how physical he is, it just makes me nervous. - Let me give you the Tet McMillan stuff, 'cause I was early in on Tet saying he's gonna be top five, and then I've walked it back a little bit. - 'Cause Nate Tice loves him, by the way. - He should. - And Nate, I really respect you. - The good is so good. This guy's film, you pick 10 plays from Tet McMillan, he looks like Calvin Johnson. - Danny Kelly has him fourth. - Dude, he's amazing. He takes plays off.

His motor isn't always going. And in this past season, it was a significant difference in his consistency than the year before. Now, the year before, Arizona was coached by Jed Fish. They had an offense that was humming. They were a top 10 team at one point, and this guy was engaged. Last year, they took a dip. They had a new coaching staff. It wasn't as good. That said...

six foot four. Yeah, I get it. Fast, dominant hands and like teams that met with him. He's a different cat. No, he's from Hawaii and he comes in and something that rubbed people wrong was like, I'm a volleyball player first, football player second, something of that. Like, I love volleyball. Now, football guys see that and they like bang their head through glass and they're like,

A coach who's more evolved says, all right, he's got volleyball skills and we will coach him up and we will get the most out of him. Now, the ceiling is Mike Evans. The basement or the floor could be- The ceiling is Mike Evans who said one of the best wide receiver careers start to finish of anyone in the last 30 years. Good ceiling. He's got the same body type and a better college career than Mike Evans had. So you're looking at that. And in a wide receiver draft-

That is putrid. Putrid. I mean, last year we had neighbors, Adunze, Harrison. That's why I'm scared about him because this is what happens with the draft. When you're in this cluster and you're way better than everyone else in the cluster, but it's a bad cluster. This is the same thing with the quarterbacks. No doubt. Jackson Dart wouldn't have gotten drafted in the first 45 picks last year. Might not have. But McMillan, what I like though is,

is that the evolved coaches who I've spoken to, they didn't just shut it down. It's not that he doesn't love football. It's that this kid is different and he's got other interests. But gosh, when he's on the football field, he turns it on. So I don't know if it could be your first pick as a GM or your first pick as a head coach. But if you're secure in your spot and you're looking at this draft and it's a bunch of mid, this guy is the sky's the limit prospect as far as skill position goes.

It feels very Dallas Cowboys-y at number 12 to me. Got the same type of body type as CeeDee Lamb, though. No, I'm just saying like, ah, now look at me, Dak and these two. This is the Eagles blueprint. Yeah. I have him going currently 19 to Tampa, which is crazy because a week ago I had him going either four or five. I think he goes in the teens. So I want to talk about the Niners at 11. Yeah.

Sal and I did guess the lines over-unders for the first time ever this year. And I heard four and a half. I was four wins off on the Niners. I thought it was going to be six and a half. It was 10 and a half. It's still 10 and a half on Fandle, even though there's a bunch of action. There's minus 130 under. And there's reasons for it. The schedule, the divisions they play, they have fourth place schedule, all that stuff. And yet I'm looking at the Niners at 11. Dude.

they think they're good? And if they do think they're good, are they going to get aggressive? Are they going to try to move up? Will they try to move back? They feel like a pivot team to me. The Bears are staying at 10 and they're going to take a weapon, I think.

I think the Bears are interesting because they lead to the Niners. The Bears at 10, if Colston Loveland is sitting there, the tight end, that's really interesting for the Bears. You add another weapon to them. I could see the Bears take an offensive line, going with the big kid out of Alabama, the Booker, or Kelvin. I'm losing his name. Texas, the offensive tackle. The Niners...

Their defense was atrocious last year. And they just lost a bunch of dudes. They did. And that's long been their pride of their team up front. So, you know, you look at the big kid, Mikkel Williams out of Georgia, that's a possibility there. Or you look at defensive back and there's, you know, Hunter, but then this kid Barron out of Texas who won all the awards is a superb talent too. And is it like,

to your point, the economics of it, if we get a number one corner and he's sitting there at 11, like we could put that pick in and we're good and we're building. Or are you trying to swing the bat and try to do something major and move up and get one of these star players and try to stay in the conversation for the NFC? Try to get all the way up to three for Carter. See, I think Mason Graham is the guy who could potentially fall five, six spots. He might. The, the,

you know, awesome middle of the line guy. There was a moment where I would have been psyched if the Pats took him, but then they signed Williams. So it makes sense. He's a three technique player. He's got an incredible motor. Everyone likes him, but his body type is not, you're not going to sit in a room with Mason Graham and think he's Aaron Donald. So there's questions like, what's the, what's the sky's the limit with this guy? Or have we seen the best of him? Also, it's a pretty deep position. Can I give you a good Salah note? Yeah. Oh, Salah.

Salah's the new defensive coordinator of the Niners. I have to share this with you. I don't think anyone's reported this and I don't think you and Salah discussed it. Salah and his wife had another kid this offseason. So what's that, eight? Eight.

This is like, how does he not have a reality show? I love it. And his wife is the best. Eight kids. This is it. Eight kids quietly in the off season. Salah, another kid. I'm like, God bless him. I love that man. His new child, Aaron Rodgers Salah. Yeah. The Niners to me, major wild card. Miami, a team that kind of,

needs everything and is being held hostage by whatever the hell is going on with Tyra Kill. Another question for you. Yeah.

do the Rams just draft the QB or is that weird? Yeah. Because they think they can win the Super Bowl. Yeah. They're drafting somebody that can help them, right? Or trade back. Classic, less need, trade back. Like, let's just collect a lot. Because we hear about the teams that stick around and it's like, we'll trade up and get our quarterback. Yeah. Perfect spot. If there's a player that can help them, I mean, last year I came on your podcast and I'm like,

There's no way McVay with his first first round pick isn't taking offense. And then he took Jared verse and I looked like an idiot, but the truth of the matter is they wanted Brock. They wanted Brock Bowers and they were looking to get trade up. If a Loveland was to drop to them, if a Buka was to drop to them, I think they would consider it. But like, I don't think that the Rams are looking to stay put at 26 unless there's a player that falls precipitously to them.

All right, here's my big prediction. It's not even a crazy prediction because I think it's in the ether. By the way, Bill, I would say Seattle is a more likely in the NFC West quarterback team to trade back into the first round or early second than the Rams. Okay. I think Cousins ends up on the Steelers. Go on. It's been floated out there. There's been scenarios. There's a couple things that don't add up. And you read some of the intel from people like Schefter.

where the Falcons are like, yeah, we trade him, but you got to pay some of his salary. And teams are like, well, we'll pay 10. It's like, no, it's got to be 20. The Falcons have no leverage at all. What are they going to do? They're going to pay Kirk Cousins a gazillion dollars to be their backup. They have to trade him. They have to trade him this week. And they have to trade him to a team that is going to start to freak out that they don't have a quarterback yet, which is basically the Pittsburgh Steelers. So if the Steelers can be like, fine,

We'll pay 11 million or 12 million, whatever. Like the Falcons, this is a sunk cost. Any money they can get back to dump his contract, they've got to do it. You can't keep him. Like they probably feel like they're going to be pretty good. They're in a crappy division. Like who knows? So I just think he ends up on the Steelers and I don't think the Sanders thing is as important for them where everybody has them taking Sanders.

I feel like they could pass on him at 21, maybe get him in the second round and still get Cousins. I, by the way, think Cousins is washed and I think it's a mistake. That's the thing. I mean, he played hard at the end there, but if you watched that Monday night game, Raiders versus Falcons when Kirk Cousins could not throw a football, his shoulder was messed up. We learned about it afterwards, but like,

he probably was on the field for two extra weeks that Atlanta should have had him on. They lost those games and it cost them in the end. Um, I,

I thought Cleveland and then they signed Joe Flacco. So cross Cleveland off. I thought the Giants were a fuss, right? You'd rather pay Joe Flacco 4 million than Kirk Cousins 10. Joe Flacco who's been there. And I know the connection there was Stefanski and Cousins have a great relationship, but that's such a big price tag. And then you're kind of setting yourself back as a franchise with Flacco. You get the one year and you see, and then you go from there. Um,

I haven't done the work on Pittsburgh. I'll be honest with you. I'm trying to think of the different connections. Have Arthur Smith worked with Cousins? No, they didn't overlap in Atlanta. To me, it's such a shocker to me that they put themselves in this corner with Rodgers, of all the franchises, with the place that they're at. They look more done than Cousins. But also just with the veterans in the locker room, like Cam Hayward and TJ Watt and Minka Fitzpatrick and guys that are like,

known made men and were sitting around waiting for Aaron Rodgers. It's a shock. And I, I got to think that if they were to do this all over again, they didn't put up much of a fight to bring back Justin Fields. The Jets got him for two years, 20 million a piece, whatever. And then they did not put up any fight to get Russell Wilson back. Cousins would be one of those deals where like, gosh, this all happened.

went awry and went, and like, I guess we'll get Cousins with like a shrug, but. Well, you're getting like a better locker room fit than Rodgers. At least you're getting a guy that everybody loves being a teammate of. No doubt. But can he still play? And the price tag is going to be big. I mean, I think Atlanta is going to pick up most of it, but.

Well, can we agree it's kind of dumbfounding that they've had no solution and it's past mid-April now? They have no quarterback. I'll tell you this from the Giants' side. To Rodgers' credit, and you can say, screw that, he looked at these teams and said, guys...

I'm on my own timeline. If you need to pivot and make a move, there is no hard feelings. I am telling you straight up. I do not know when and if I'm coming back and that is on you to do it. And Giants heard that. Giants waited a couple of weeks and they were like, all right, we got to act. And they did it. And they got Russell Wilson and Jameis. Steelers were like, all right. And they still haven't made a move. It's ridiculous. Okay. I think we hit everything.

Except Kyle Brandt, some hurtful comments on the last rewatchables. I didn't listen. I'm sorry. There was no interest in redoing. I had no interest in reliving the saint, you guys. I'm giving you a platform. How are you guys doing? Kyle and I are good. You guys are like a married couple. It's sad. It's sad. How many years was it?

It was a divorce that he had nothing to do with. It wasn't even a divorce. It was like, I don't know what it was. I fell in love. It was it. It was it. How many years were you together?

I couldn't be on Good Morning Football another day. I'd given it my all. So I'm on to another lover. Well, you know what's going to have to happen? The three of us are going to have to do rewatchables is how it's going to have to play out. You already did Blue Chips. That's going to have to be the reunion ending. I could have done every word of Blue Chips. You did Blue Chips already. I could have done that one. We're going to have to figure out a rewatchables for the three of us. I would love that. And if it's Steven Seagal, Jean-Claude Van Damme, count me out, but we can find a different niche for me. I know Kyle has his wheelhouse. What is your niche? What's your movie niche?

I'm an art house theater guy. You know, cider house rules. Art house theater guy? Black box theater, we want to talk about. Was there hazing stuff at ESPN when you came in as the new guy? Did anybody just like not talk to you for a week and shit like that?

It's crazy. They put me in a room and just made me watch Lakers, Cowboys, Yankee highlights. It was nuts. This is all you're allowed to talk about. This is it. It's like Minority Report. No, we're all happy for you. I love you for it. I appreciate you. You are, as you know, a huge sounding board. And I'll tell you this, as long as the years I was on Fox and as long as I was on Good Morning Football,

All anyone is asking me is, are you still allowed to come on Simmons' podcast? And hopefully- Oh, that's nice. Hopefully I can. I love working with you and I love being a part of your world.

All right. Well, it's great to see you. Safe travels to Green Bay. Good luck with the Knicks. I'll be interested to see if we hit any of this stuff. And if Rabel is at the draft and wants to put the pads on and try to get you in some wrestling moves, just be ready for it. You might want to feel your body best. I know. If you're in New York for any of these Knicks games, we have to get together and go to... 100%. All right. Shregs, great to see you. Thank you. All right. You're the man. Thanks, dude.

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Zach and Schrags. Thanks to Gahal and Saruti as well. And don't forget, I have a new podcast coming on Thursday. Don't forget to catch up on Celtic City on Max, episode eight, the KG era. It's an awesome one. So if you missed it, try to, I know there's a lot of basketball games on right now, but try to squeeze that in. And then new rewatchables, Minority Report. You can go check that out.

as a video podcast on Spotify or on our Ringer Movies YouTube channel. Don't forget to subscribe to my channel, the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. And I will see you on Thursday, NBA playoffs and the draft. It's going to be hectic, but I will see you then.

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