The All-Positive NBA Show With Kirk Goldsberry
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Coming up next, are you feeling positive, Kirk Goldsberry? I'm feeling extremely positive, Bill Simmons. We are going to go so positive on the NBA, and that's next. This episode is brought to you by Uber Reserve. You know what's a game changer for travel? Booking my ride in advance to the airport with Uber Reserve. Uber Reserve makes it easy to plan my whole trip. I just did this.

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a superior light beer. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2024, Anheuser-Busch, Michelob Ultra, registered light beer, St. Louis, Missouri. The Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new Rewatchables last night. We did Friday Night Lights. It is basically the 28th anniversary of that movie. Came out 20 years ago. Meet Mally Rubin, one of the best football movies of all time. It's aged really nicely. Are you a fan, Kurt Goldsberry, Friday Night Lights?

Of course. I mean, it's Texas. It's like the New Testament of Texas, I think. I love it. Well, now the movies become underrated, which is one of the things, one of the reasons we want to do that podcast. Anyway, you can watch that on The Ringer Movies. You can watch it as a Spotify video podcast as well. You can watch all the videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. You can hear Kurt Goldsberry.

He's popping all over the place in the Ringer NBA show. He's written some pieces for the Ringer. He's going to be on in one second with me because we are doing the all positive end of the year NBA podcast. It's next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right. Kurt Goldsberry is here. We are taping this on Tuesday morning, New Year's Eve, trying to put this up before everybody goes out. And we are doing an all positive podcast.

NBA podcast. Kurt, the NBA has taken a lot of hits, even on this podcast in a couple of ways. A lot of complaining, a lot of nitpicking, a lot of people forgetting what the league was like 10 years, 20 years, 30 years ago, and holding on to some ideal of something I'm not positive really existed. But what I want to do today is no negativity at all, all the positive storylines, all the things I'm excited about. But before we get into it,

Do you think this is overboard with people complaining about the season this year? Because I actually feel like we hit that point about two weeks ago. Yeah, I got sick of it. It is. We're toughest, though. Everybody's going through the holidays, right? We're toughest on the ones we love the most. That's one of the things you learn as a parent. Good way to think about it. Yeah. Yeah. And we have high standards for the NBA, Bill, don't we? It's a product that we cherish that's been with us for our whole lives. So I think a lot of it comes from a good place, honestly. Yeah.

There's been a lot of people just waiting, I feel like, to take shots at the NBA that have used this recent sort of news cycle as a chance to just get their grievances out. And frankly, it has gotten to be a little too much. Yeah. And, you know, this happens with anything. This happens with bands. It happens with actors. It happens with writers where you just become convinced things were better five years ago, 10 years ago. And that's just the way it is.

The NBA is really good right now. And we're going to go through a whole bunch of things, but I just want to start here and we're going to go. Yeah. I asked you to come up with some, some things you want to hit as well. I have a bunch of them. The number one thing I want to hit though, is just basketball is better played than

Now than it ever was. And it's not close. It's not an argument. The players are more skilled. They shoot better. The games are more high scoring. The scoring is better in the games. The defense is better. The skill is better. I would urge people to really watch closely some of these games. One of the things that's changed for me, just from a skill level that I constantly marvel at, especially I went to a Clippers Warriors game in person a couple of days ago,

The ability for people to just drive and then throw these one-handed, perfectly placed passes to guys in the corner. Nobody was doing that 10 years ago. And now you have 70, like Tyler Hero is basically Joe Burrow on those. And, you know, you wouldn't think of him as a good passer, but I'm just so impressed over and over again with how skilled these dudes are.

And I don't think people see it or the people that do see it. Maybe we're not loud enough, but am I crazy thinking these guys are just better than they used to be? Hell no. In fact, I feel like somebody told me, you know, small ball was about the 2010s were about small ball. We're halfway through the 2020s here, Bill. And we might call it skill ball, I think, because even the big dudes, uh,

like Jokic and Embiid and Wemby, like name a center from 2004 or 1994. Could they do anything that Jokic do? Maybe a kid in Rashid Wallace. There were some, there were some guys that were super skilled that could shoot the ball and pass and dribble. Well, it's basically Rashid. Rashid was the guy everyone pointed to and said, Oh my God, this guy, he can shoot from outside. He can post up. And we, we held them up to this crazy level. And he was like 16 points a game.

Yeah, I agree. And I think LeBron helped change that too. He's like, I'm going to be a five to a player to borrow the term from baseball. And like this generation does everything. Everybody does everything. Dribble, pass and shoot. And skill has never been this high.

And it's one of the reasons offenses are scoring so much. It's not just the lack of defense. It's these offensive skills have made the offensive end almost impossible to defend. So I think it's fair to say that the talent pool, the NBA, the 500 dudes in that league at any given time, this is the best group of 500 basketball players we've ever had. I don't even think it's close. And I also think it's probably the best top 50 we've ever had by far. Like I was looking at,

2025 versus 2005. So in 2025, we're averaging 113 points a game. In 2005, we averaged 97.2, 16 points less. We're shooting better now. We're 46.4% field goal. We were 44.7 in 2005. Three-point shooting slightly better, 35.9. It was 35.6. Assists, we're five higher a game. They're shooting 21.5 more threes a game. But

Everyone points to that. And really, we change long twos and bad post-ups for threes. And I'm fine with the trade. I would rather watch somebody shoot a three. I think when people, including me, have complained about the NBA, and again, we're trying to go all positive, there's a sameness to what they're watching. And what it really is, it's not the threes.

To me, it's the pick for the guy 30 feet from the basket at the top. It's the over and over again of two guys in the corner and one or two picks coming up for somebody like Tatum, whoever it is, Jaylen Bartzak, it could be anybody. And just seeing that over and over again, the sameness of it, I think that's what people are thinking of. It's not the fact that we're shooting more threes because they're making more threes and we have more skilled players. I don't know how you fix the sameness and I'm not sure I care. Where do you stand on that?

I think they've got to move the line. And again, I'm staying positive here, but you started with the guys throwing to the corner. Well, one of the reasons those guys are so good at throwing to the corner is every trip down that there's two guys at the corners the whole time, every time. Yeah. I know that wasn't true. There's just guys there. Right. I...

I don't think, and we're probably going to talk about Jokic and Wemby and Shea. I mean, if you're really watching the game, there's not that much sameness. I agree. And again, you started the podcast by talking about like people forgot what we were watching, like dump it down to McHale or Parrish or Mike Jeminski. Like you have to remember, this wasn't Jordan and Bird every night. Sometimes it was the Mavericks and Bullets.

And there used to be some pretty repetitive actions in the post-up era of the NBA that weren't fantastic, so to speak. So I think it is relatively fair, but it's not new to say that the NBA is kind of homogenous at times. Well, and the other thing, and one of the things that I think has been so great about this season

We have so many good guards, you know, and I look back to like that first half of the 2000s when everyone was complaining and I was doing my bit about how I was one of the last 20 NBA fans. Even the guys that were the best guys, they were all like doing Jordan imitations to some degree. There were these guards that had the ball for a shitload. And even you look at the, uh,

The all NBA and the all-stars from that. It was like, that was the Gilbert Arenas era. That was TMAC with the ball at the time. That was Kobe with the ball at the time. Like that was why we latched on to Steve Nash and the sun so much because the style they were playing was different. Wade had the ball at the time. LeBron had the ball at the time, but it wasn't the same kind of smart offense we have now because the spacing was the same.

You had these guys that had the ball all the time, but they're also playing with centers clogging the lane. And, you know, we had power forwards back then. They kind of didn't know where to put them because they couldn't space. You had like the Vin Baker, Antoine Walker, like these guys that were just, I guess Antoine could shoot some threes. So Mario Stoudemire, people trying to figure out how to use these big guys. And now those big guys can pop out and they can do pop and picks. And I just think the product's better. I don't think there's,

Go back and watch, go on YouTube and watch just a random 2005 regular season game. We were all like, what are we going to do about this league? This is bad. How do we fix this? And I think they fixed a lot of it. And to me, it's a positive, not a negative. Yeah. The three-point line has made basketball a lot better. The 2010s brought us pace and space. D'Antoni had the controls for those Suns teams, but also that sort of heliocentric mentality.

offense in Houston that really figured out how to sort of spam a superstar over and over and over again, but to great effect to make their offense some of the best in the NBA. I don't always love Harden. I know Rosillo and I vibe on that point. But aligning that hyper usage superstar, that guard, that skill with spacing and smarter plays and high screen and rolls has been effective.

and made possessions more successful in general. But I think the game is more open. And if you like scoring, it's definitely more fun to watch now than an average NBA game. And this, again, is something I've been noticing, like Jordan this, Jordan that. Jordan was only one of, you know,

One of 30 teams, right? So an average NBA game in the 90s was not Michael Jordan. And I think people forget that, Bill. It's like the replacement level game from the 90s was not a great product. Well, I have, this is another thing I have which ties into this.

The watchable basketball across the board, I think people really take for granted now. And I would urge people to go back and look at the bottom rung of teams in 2015. That was when we had Philly in the process. Or in 2005, you just had these broken teams that were stuck with these terrible salary cap roster decisions, right? You had the Marbury Knicks. You had the Celtics stuck with...

Paul Pierce and Ricky Davis and Vin Baker's terrible contract, which turned into Rafe LaFrance's terrible contract. You go around the league, even like LeBron was stuck on a terrible Cavs team for three years. You go around the league, there was 10 to 15 unwatchable teams. I look at the bad teams now and the bad teams, Portland, Charlotte, Washington, New Orleans, Toronto, Utah,

I can watch all of those teams. Yeah. I like watching Utah. New Orleans is the most fascinating five and 28 team. I think we've ever had the history of the league. Like I watched them last night play right down to the wire against the Clippers. Charlotte's got LaMelo and Brandon Miller. Portland, where, where our Justin Barrier is, is located now. Like,

Portland is fun to watch. They've got a lot of weird pieces. They have guys who can spring for 35 at any night compared to where we were 10 years ago. It's no contest. The league is so much deeper and more entertaining. Do you see that too? Is there anybody I'm missing?

No, I was just saying the average league pass game right now is way better than it's ever been. Way better. Tonight's game, we have Clippers-Spurs. That's not a bad game. We have Timberwolves in OKC. That's a great game. Grizzlies at Suns. That's a great game. Cavs at Lakers. That's a great game.

That's just tonight. Those are your options on New Year's Eve if you're going to watch a game before you go out. That's a great set of games. And again, we can't just judge everything by, oh, Jordan versus the Knicks was incredible in the 90s. Well, the Mavs versus the Bullets was not. And I think the average NBA game in 2024 as we hit 2025 is a very good product relative to where we came from. I remember the first year I did Countdown.

There weren't five playoff teams you wanted to see. Like I remember it was either 2013 or 14. There was just some bulls net series that felt like it was going on for five weeks. You know, that was in 2013. We had Memphis make the conference finals with that, like Zeebo Gasol. Nobody could make a three. They had no spacing at all. There was some good stuff too. Like the 2014 Spurs were just,

you know, a revelation and really great. And I think when people think about basketball before we moved into this three crazy era, the 2014 Spurs and especially what they did to Miami, that's kind of the ideal for the old way of basketball that tied to the 1970 Knicks and the 74 Celtics and the, you know, the Russell Celtics, there's ball movement, everything built around a big guy, guards who could attack

Those days are over because everybody can shoot threes down and we're just not going to have a team like the 2014 Spurs again. But I would urge people to go back. Even Miami, who had LeBron during this incredible MVP heat check run and Wade and Bosh, they're pretty tough to watch in 2014.

Right. They could barely put together seven guys. Now all the best teams have seven or 11 guys, you know, Pritchard's the seventh guy in the Celtics and can score 25 any night. So I just think it's no contest right now. Yeah, I agree. I think the 2014 Spurs probably my favorite basketball team in my life. That's a special team for me. A beautiful game. Good to great Manu, Tim, Kawhi, all firing on all cylinders. It was great chemistry.

Yeah. Not ancient history, but sort of becoming old school. And I think that team was as deep as it gets to remember their bench, the foreign Legion had a bunch of international players. They were ahead of their time with ball movement, player movement, and this international stuff. Uh, but spectacular aesthetics on the court. Uh, it's probably an unfair standard for an average NBA team. Again, an average game, but, uh,

Yeah, like the games that I mentioned tonight. Those are great. The Cavs don't just stay there. They're playing with a lot of movement. They're great on both ends of the floor. And then you get to watch the Lakers. So LeBron playing Cleveland. There's just great games, great players almost every game tonight, for instance. I think the league's in a good place. Did you have the Cavs on your list? I didn't, but I have a related one. What do you got on the Cavs, Bill?

I just, they killed golden state last night. The Cavs are 27 and four. They're like, when we're talking about the, in the all positive NBA podcast, um, the Cavs are just great to watch. Um, in a lot of ways they've, they inverted what the Celtics did last year, where instead of being built around these two great wings, like the Celtics were with three point shooting and defense, um,

They inverted it where they're built around these two great guards with three point shooting and with defense. And if you, if you're not ready for them on the wrong night or you think you're ready for them, but you're not, or they're hitting shots, they're basically unbeatable. I don't know how this is going to translate to the playoffs yet, but, um, but the fact that we have them and OKC who is on a winning streak right now, who's going to win 60 plus games, who's just a regular season monster, um,

And then the sleeping giant Celtics team who just clearly is on cruise control now until March, April. But then some of the other teams we have, like just the depth of contenders at the top and the unpredictability of figuring out, even though I'm in the, oh, it's going to be OKC Boston camp.

But like I watched Cleveland last night, I'm like that Cleveland's going to be tough. Like Boston's got to get their shit together. Cleveland's probably getting the one seed. Boston's going to have to win a playoff game in a series in Cleveland. And that team is about as confident as it gets right now. So I would throw them in too in the all positive pod.

Yeah, and I would say, you know, we got on here before the season. I said, hey, look out for Cleveland. I think they can get the two seed. And right now, like obviously at the season end of the day, they're the one seed. And then the other team I put in there, and one of the general themes of the first part of this, the East isn't as bad as we thought it was in the first few weeks. And the other team I got to put in there is New York Knicks. Yeah. And that's sort of a related one here, Bill. Let's go. The NBA is so much better when the New York Knickerbockers are good.

And MSG is hosting games in April and May. Bing bong. They've won nine of their last 10. Their defenses come around. Their starting five slash closing five is legit. They could pass the Celtics, depending on how your team does on this road trip.

early 2025 they could be the two seed here in a few days but I think the East has three very good teams I'm with you I'm still taking Boston I think they're tired from the Olympics and the playoff run last year but I think the Cleveland Cavaliers in the New York Knicks we could sort of pair these and be like look East Coast basketball is good and if Philly has a pulse now and can come around and Milwaukee's good

look, the East has as many good teams as the West right now, period. And I wasn't saying that at the beginning of the year. And I think it's good for the league and its ratings when the Eastern time zone has some good basketball. So I think it's, if we loop all this together, I think it's a really good storyline for the league in 2025 that the East is pretty good. Well, don't count out the zombie magic. They're just kind of wandering around in a dark, empty building with like, it's Tristan De Silva. Yeah.

And he's like, fucking where'd this guy come from? You know, the Knicks, they're a half game behind the Celtics. All the Celtic fans I know, including myself, are very focused on it. They have two players playing just out of control. Fantastic. And I want to talk about them in a little bit. The big thing for them is they got bridges going. And I remember saying at the start of the year, I don't know, three weeks in, I was like,

What was the point of this Bridges trade if they're just going to make him this accessory that stands in the corner? Like this is a really good offensive player who's we've watched him carry a Nets team a couple of years ago and they would actually run crunch time stuff. Why are they just kind of sticking them over there? You look at his November stats. He was, you know, 14.7 points a game, 29% from three. He took in November 15 games. How many free throws do you think he took?

He should average two a game. So I'd say 30. Yeah, he took six. So I look at that and I'm just like, you're just playing in this guy in the corner. And that was what the eye test was backing him up. But in December, it really seems like they tried to get him involved. He had that big day last week, but he's at 21 and a half a game now. And it's, he's kind of moved into that him and Ananobi kind of sharing that number three score thing. Yeah.

Some of that's predictable, but some of it, you know, was seemed pretty bleak for him in November. It's like, what are we doing with this guy? Especially with everything you gave up now, I think they, they've figured out at least the four there, there, the thing that worries me about them is there's going to be a couple of buyout guys in February. And that's a number one buyout candidate team because you're going to a team that has a chance to make the finals. You're going to play, you get to be in New York city.

You know, that if I'm making like buyout destination, if I'm whoever, I'm looking at them. It's too bad there's not a Villanova center that they could put next to town. So I don't think they have. But who else was on that team? Is Chris Jenkins available?

That's exactly right. But that's it. In all seriousness, if like I love OKC because they have two different front court looks when Chet's right and Hartenstein's right. Yeah, I feel like that's the weakness right now, especially against Porzingis or Giannis. They need and I'm not sure what Mitchell Robinson's going to bring come playoff time. But if they can get a real sturdy five, they're not going to get a go bear, but just a traditional five that could let them go big, play big offensively.

against some of these rim pressuring teams, especially in Milwaukee or Philadelphia. I think they're in great shape. Now their defense is already, I think it's number two in the last 10 games. They've won nine of those 10 games. Their defense is good. I just, if they really want to get over the hump bill, I think they need to have a couple of different looks in that front court. And right now that's sort of the weakness with towns only maybe a little Mitch Robinson in there. I think they need, they miss Hardenstein, somebody like that.

if they could get on the buyout market or even in trade market. Somebody could come in and give them a traditional five up front. I want to keep going on the Knicks, but let's take a break. All right. Two more things on the Knicks that tie into what you said about why this has been a good season in the All Positive NBA podcast. We have to keep going on this. One, Towns. Last two years, 21, eight rebounds. This 50-40 guy, I kind of felt like he had maxed out from a potential standpoint, but

It was hard to tell how much it had to do with Gobert being on the court with him. He was always 25 feet from the basket on offense. Ant was starting to have the ball a lot. And it was like, well, maybe on this next team, there's a case. If you're playing him as like the stretch five, but he also has this rebounding block shot burden. Maybe there's something else here. Well, there's something else here. He's 24 and a half points, 13.5 rebounds.

55% field goal, 45% from three. I test wise, the most fun I've had watching them and the concerns we had in the summer about this guy in New York. I don't know, man. He's a little weird. This kid, there's a version of this where this goes bad. It's been the opposite. I think this is actually, they brought out the best in him and I think they've really responded to him. And I think they have a great fan base. I think they understand like,

Let's constantly get this guy going. Let's really be super duper, super duper supportive of him. And it's working. And this is the most fun I've had watching him play basketball on top of the Brunson piece and how good those guys are playing off each other already, you know, and that's only going to get better as the season goes. So gigantic win. Did you see this from town? Said you given up?

No, this team, this front office has made me feel dumb over and over again. I didn't, I didn't love the Brunson deal. I didn't hate it by any means, but I certainly didn't see that coming. And then the trade, I thought I'd like to trade better for Minnesota. Yeah. And credit the towns credit to Leon Rose credit to Tom Thibodeau. They've won that trade. I think hands down the bridges trade again, looked like,

like a disaster there for a few weeks. I'm not sure I love it to this point, given how much they gave up. But this team now looks very good and all of those, all those transactions look great.

The bridge is one I'll reserve some judgment for until we fully see it. But Towns, I didn't see this. I was worried about him in the New York media as well. I'm still worried about him as the primary interior defender in the playoffs. Like I said, I think that's a fair point to sort of hold back.

But Towns and company have proved me wrong. They built this team in an era where trades and free agency are sort of less powerful than ever. And the best teams tend to be building with the draft more. Then, you know, Dick sort of built this team from other teams, players, and it's very good. And I think they deserve credit for it. But it's working very well, Bill. They took a real gamble with how expensive that deal was.

And you're like, and we talked about it last summer. I didn't love the deal for either team. It made more sense from a talent standpoint for the Knicks, but the money was so disarming. You just look at it and you're like, man, if we miss on this, there's no moves up, man. We are now pushing all the chips in.

But it worked out and it's been great. And I really like Towns, even though he's such a dumbass sometimes on the court. And we would always, Russell and I would always make fun of him during the playoffs because he would just, you know, get the fifth foul in the third quarter and the worst, but 40 feet from the basket, just bumping over somebody on a pick.

but he seems like a good guy. And by all accounts, he is. And you could see when he came back to Minnesota, you know what he meant to the franchise, but just how his Knicks teammates reacted to him in Minnesota when they showed the video, it's just like clearly really liked. And I'm just glad it worked out because we've seen this league. A lot of these guys, sometimes when it feels like they can go either way from a talent standpoint, sometimes it goes the wrong way. Like you look at Zion right now, um,

Leading to the second thing, this I also love about the league and the All Positive NBA podcast. Dallas not locking up Jalen Brunson leads to this amazing kind of sliding doors domino situation. It leads to Brunson and New York and all of these other things that happen with them where they become a really fun, legitimate contender for a fan base that's needed for 20 years. It eventually leads to Kyrie and Dallas

And him rejuvenating his career and being one of the 15 to 20 most fun guys to watch in the league again, I'd given up on that. It happened. It caused a Brooklyn rebuild because Kyrie had a chance to go to Dallas, right? So that leads to whatever and them trading Kyrie and KD. So why is the Brooklyn rebuild important? Because Donovan Mitchell, who wanted to go to New York City, and I will die on that hill, had nowhere to go.

Brunson goes to the Knicks, becomes the guy. Well, he can't go there. Brooklyn sucks. Well, what am I going to go there for? And you kind of, it's like, you know what you got. You don't know what you don't have. And he's looking around this Cleveland team and it's like, man, this team's really good. Maybe I should, maybe I should stop thinking about what's next and just kind of lock it down here. Signs the extension.

Now they become a legitimate contender. That team falls into place. That team's super selfless. And I honestly, as weird as it sounds, I think it starts with the Brunson thing. And now we have a Knicks legitimate contender. We have Kyrie as a piece of a finals team last year. We have the Cavs as a legitimate contender and Brooklyn as the most fun summer team next summer.

Yeah, that's a great take. I love that. And I think like the Western conference talent, like Bronson, Donovan Mitchell and Towns going from West to East. We talked about how the Celtics are the favorites, but the Eastern conference needed a talent infusion. And I think these transactions sort of both

Again, the Cavaliers are a story of Donovan Mitchell going to Cleveland. And then this Knicks team has two really big Western Conference imports at the top of the box score every night. So I think that those transactions, that's a great point. So now who can we get from the Western Conference to move East Snacksville? I mean, it's like so much more. Zion's next. There you go. Who can save Zion? One other thing with Brunson and then you're up next with Positive. I'm just in disbelief how good Brunson is.

And I think we take it for granted now in a way because he's just does it night after night with this herky jerky, these different spots of the court, his ability, even at the end of games to always get the shot he wants. The crunch time stats with him are out of control. Like John Schumann had in his power rankings thing yesterday that Brunson, he was on a crunch time streak where his usage rate was like 46%, which is like, you know, 98 finals Jordan, not as high as that.

And over and over again, teams know what they're going to do. And he gets the shot he wants. I actually liked the signing for them when they got him because I really like Brunson. I also never in a million years thought he was going to be this good. I thought he could be the piece of a really good team. Maybe the best guard on a contender.

Not this. And you watch him night to night and all the other guys kind of make sense as awesome crunch time guys. Even somebody like Shay, it's very old school. He's just going to get, he's either going to get to the rim or he's going to get like his little 12 to 15 spot. I've seen that. I've seen there are guys in the seventies that did that.

The Brunson thing, I don't know if I've seen before. Like his arsenal of weird shots and herky-jerky. He'd be a fucking nightmare to defend. Anyway, I wanted to mention that. Yeah, he's also a great, you know, sort of rebuke of the idea that everybody plays the same. Here's this undersized guard going and playing two feet in the paint like John Wooden is his coach. Doing all these pivots and drop steps and floaters and pull-ups. He

He's just so talented and so smart. He's got the Kevin McHale footwork as a guard in the paint. And it's brilliant to watch. But, dude, if the Mavs knew that this guy was going to be putting up 50 in playoff games, I think they would have had a different whiteboard strategy before they let him go. I think he would still be in Dallas. Nobody saw this coming. I don't think the Knicks knew he could do this. And, of course, they should say they did. Right. But, man...

He's been a revelation. And the other thing I'd say just on the Knicks is it's not only they're good. You mentioned this earlier. The vibes are immaculate and they're fun. They're a fun group of guys. It's a fun team to watch. Might be hard for a Celtics fan to admit, but it's sort of a neutral. I like the Knicks because they're fans. They have great fans and they have a great building and the league's better when the Knicks are involved.

And I hope we see Jalen Brunson playing your team in the conference semis between Boston and New York. That would be absolutely a dream come true for the Eastern Conference playoffs this year. It's an awesome, awesome, awesome matchup. And the fear for me is just the miles they've had to put on Al Horford already combined with Porzingis, who just can't seem to play two games in a row. You know, I think the Celts match up great with them.

And in a way, that's probably the team the Knicks wouldn't, I would think definitely the team the Knicks wouldn't want to face because they just have these guards that they can throw at Brunson. They can counter Towns with their own stretch fives. And then they have these wings that are better than the Knicks wings. But we might not ever see that Celtics team this year. I mean, again, this is the all positive NBA pod, but you really need luck with health. And they had luck.

with Jalen and Tatum all decade. You know, they got luck with Porzingis for the most part. They were able to get to the playoffs and get just enough out of them to make it. They got luck with White and Horford. And we know with the NBA, like you can't count on that year to year. So give me another one. Give me an all positive.

The future is French, Bill Simmons. The future is French, and it's temporarily stationed in San Antonio, Texas. Victor Wemby-Yama. We have LeBron James at age 40. We have Nikola Jokic turning 30 in a few days, or a month, I think. And Wemby's 20. And Wemby is giving us a very clear next up. It doesn't mean he'll be the only one, but this dude is special.

There's no other way to look at it. Everything is clicking. He was very hyped, like LeBron coming in. But I think Victor Wibonyama is poised to be the next greatest player in the NBA at some point in the next five years. I couldn't agree more. The gold medal game was a great sign by him. The Christmas Day Knicks game was a great sign by him.

I had him down as well for the draft. I wrote down Wemby's slow burn into a potential monster crunch time guy. Wemby to me has turned into when I'm home watching NBA, if he's in the fourth quarter and it's close, he's on a TV now. And that wasn't the case last year. Last year, it was more of like, that team's a mess. It really makes me mad that I don't have a point guard. If he does something cool, I'll see it on social media. This year, it's kind of like,

Now that Chris Paul, which, you know, go figure they needed a point guard and he's, he's almost my age, but still knows what to do, how to get him the ball in the right spots. But his last 18, he's 29 and 10. Good sign. 50, 40, 87, 4.1 blocks a game.

And the nitpick is 4.6 free throws a game versus 11 threes a game. And that's going to be the tilt that I'm watching for at the end of these games, because what's so much fun to watch in these crunch times is where they get in the ball and then what he does. And he still has that, like, sometimes he plays better

lower than his size. You know, he'll do like these turnarounds where he's, he's like falling down or he's, you know, I think once he eventually realizes just, I'm going to get eight feet from the basket, get me the ball. I'm taller than everyone. I'm just going to get a good shot, but it's really fun watching him figure it out. No, the last time I'm going back 40 years, but Samson, the first couple of years on the Rockets and Wemba Nyama, uh,

Pretty similar offensively, except for the three point shooting. But Samson had the same stuff. Like he was just figuring out what his body was. He had some really good stuff. He was always around the rim and big in big moments. And he was kind of nice around the foul line. And then he got hurt. We kind of never saw where it was going to go.

Um, with Wemby, the thing, the thing that I'm watching for as the season keeps going, they're 500 team. We had them, I think under 35 for the season. They're clearly going to be in the playoff mix because he's just too good. They also have some trades to make potentially. But what I want to watch from him is the last five, six, seven minutes of the game.

Where are your shots coming from? Are you just going to settle for threes? Are you going to start figuring out I need to be six, seven feet from the basket and around the rim on rebounds and stuff like that? What have you been watching from him with the evolution of that over the last year?

He is so much more comfortable on the basketball court, specifically on the offensive end. I still think the biggest growth there is in the two-point area as well. I think he needs to have a couple of just signature moves, like not a Sambor shuffle, not necessarily a Eurostep, but he should be able to develop some footwork. And we talked about Brunson. If he had a little bit more footwork and some go-to moves, like we can all picture Michael or Kobe going to one of their go-to shots, Dirk.

Like, what's that going to be for him? I don't know what that is, but once he gets it, look out. So I'm watching that. He turns 21 this week. Nobody in league history has ever averaged three made. It's fucking crazy. How is he not 21 yet? Him and my daughter's boyfriend turning 21 in the same week. That's just nuts to me.

Yeah, so nobody's ever made three threes in average three blocks a game. He's hit four blocks and easily three threes. So that's his signature thing. He's going to be a three-point shooter. But what can he do inside the arc, I think, is where his big growth area is. I think he'll also usher in, you sort of alluded to this, a new rivalry in FIBA. I know it's a little early, but like 2027 World Cup, 2028 Olympics, you know,

France is going to be loaded and they're going to be younger and he's going to be great. I think there's going to be a new France-USA rivalry in these big competitions. I love true patriot Kirk Goldsberry is one of my favorite Kirk Goldsberry's. Always keep an eye on the gold medal in FIBA.

Well, I work for Team USA. I love international basketball. FIBA is a great product. I think we all enjoyed the Olympics. I remember talking to R.C. Buford after the Olympics. And I say, R.C., what was that like? He's like, the perfect outcome. Wemby almost won, so he's coming back angry. And my country won. So a lot of Spurs people love that he almost won, but not quite. And I think he has a chance when he's, what, 23, 24, to do what Buford did.

Manu did, which is upset Goliath on the international stage and really become a special different level international player. But ultimately, as it relates to this season, they're better than I thought they were largely because of him, Bill. I do think...

They're sort of where LeBron was in year two, kind of a dicey playoff team. Nobody expects much, but ahead of schedule. So I think the Spurs are thrilled with where he is. But a team that makes more sense than those first couple of years of LeBron teams. I mean, he inherited such a bad roster those first couple of years. They spent three years just trying to extricate themselves from these awful roster decisions. And I think

That 06 season was the kind of the first time I was like, all right, this kind of looks like a team that LeBron should have. Wemby's further along. They also they have some possible trade stuff if they wanted. My big thing, if they made me the Wemby consultant, he needs to figure out where his like three spots on the floor. Right. I thought this was something when Duncan came into the league.

And he came in as a finished product almost because he had been in college for four years, but he had his spots, right? He was, he had right block jump hook. He had that left, left a little bit further away, 10, 11 feet where he could shoot that bank shot or drive into the lane, hit the jumper. Like he knew where his spots were. Wemby spots are basically the three point line. And then he's showing signs of a possible Dirk foul line, something like

But I don't know if he even knows what it is yet. Remember like how long it took Dirk to just figure out like top of the key. This is my domain now. I'm, I'm now grabbing this and taking it. And I don't, for me, the Wemby spot, I think would be the left block where he could either shoot a bank shot or a little 10 footer or go into the lane with a little running jump hook. And I don't know how you would defend it, but he hasn't figured that out yet.

Yeah, I have never thought about it in these terms, but it's like, okay, post plays kind of dead. Here comes like the best big man of a generation. How is he going to get two point shots? And I love the Timmy, you know, the bank shot from the left side, you know, and bead is the free throw line face up guy. And beads a good one. And beads took eight years to figure out where his spot was. And it's free throw line.

Yeah. And I don't know, there's no manual. There's no like George Mike in tutorial video and how to drop step and get a half hook because we're not doing that anymore. So it's a cool thing. Again, in the all positive podcast is like, how is this guy going to figure it out? He clearly has the tools. Yeah.

But there's no manual to learn from here. Maybe it's Embiid a little bit. Maybe it's Jokic a little bit. But I think he has a higher ceiling as a scorer, is it crazy, than those guys do near the basketball hoop. So I don't know how he's going to get there. But that is, I think we're vibing on that. That's the same thing. What is his signature two-point move going to be, Bill? I like the foul line area for him too, because we saw it with Dirk. We saw it with Embiid. We've seen it with a couple others. Just because it's really hard to send a second guy

You know, you can almost create enough space there where,

you can pass to either corner. You got like a guard over there. So maybe that'll be it. I'd love to see them find one more guy just for the record. All right. Well, and I just say shout out to Brian Wright and RC and all those guys for getting grownups in that, like Harrison Barnes and Chris Paul. It really did let this happen. So let's, they do have another level to get to, and it's going to require some good front office craft to, to build this team around him. Yeah. There's,

they have to be staring at Fox a little bit. I agree. That would be the guy I would be at least having a meeting about when we get back after New Year's. Like, all right, hey guys, 1.30, we're going to have our one and a half hour at the Aaron Fox meeting. And we've had our best three scouts watch his last 20 games. And what would this look like with one day? You got to talk that out and really figure it out because this is a top 20 guy that might become available in a month.

My next one for the All Positive MBA podcast, and I couldn't be more delighted. I've already talked about them on the pod in the past, so we don't have to spend too much time on it. But the Atlanta Hawks graduating from fantasy team

that just made trades that Woody Johnson's kids would make for the jets. And we're like, we'll just put the Jante Murray and Trey young together. By the way, I trade that. I kind of liked when they did it. I, at the time I thought the Jante Murray still played defense, but came to find out he didn't the way they crafted this team, putting Trey with all these wings and all these interchangeable guys on defense who can help him.

in some ways, or, you know, the Daniels Murray trade, which was the trade of the year and maybe the trade of the last couple of years, the research a pick who I just really like research. I liked him in the preseason. I like him during the season. He's 19 years old. He's playing 24 minutes a game. I don't know if you saw their comeback against Indiana when they scored 50 in the fourth quarter. Research was a big part of that. The, the, they have two centers that,

who basically can just rebound and finish lobs and that's it. And it's a team that was architected. I'm going to make up that word correctly. And I just want to appreciate the moment because so many, like look at the Kings, you go the other way. We can talk about them in the all negative NBA pod, but,

The Kings doing all the fantasy basketball moves. DeMar DeRosa maybe has stuff left in the tank and on and on and on. And now they're a mess. Atlanta, like just really smartly crafting a team that can exact the most out of Trae Young because they knew they didn't really have a chance to... Trae Young had no value anymore. They weren't going to be able... You're basically just selling them off for 40 cents on the dollar. All the moves they made were great. And the fact that Hunter turned out to be a guy kind of belatedly

I just really like the team. They're 18 and 15 now. And I think they're, I think they're a team that's not going to be a playing team. I think they're going to be one of the six playoff teams.

I say I see the same thing for them. They're 11 and four in their last 15 playing pretty good on both sides of the ball. Landry Fields, Kyle Korver, great front office moves. I think the Dejounte trade, the original one was it didn't turn out very well. But then sort of getting the edit undue and getting back Dyson Daniels and draft capital has completely changed.

completely refresh the outlook in Atlanta. I think Trey Young still has something to give. He's a terrific offensive player. And if you surround him with four great defensive players, you have a chance to be able to hide him on the defensive end. And that's what this current sort of lock of wings lets them do. Obviously, Dyson Daniels deserves all the shine for defensive player of the year candidacy. He is a great... Did you see this with him?

No, I don't think New Orleans did either. It's again, it's sort of like Brunson's like if freaking New Orleans knew they had this straight at him. So I don't think anybody knew it. I mean, we always he was always kind of interesting in the draft because he had

the size and the athleticism and sort of this quirky playmaking thing. But I don't think anybody knew he could do this. I don't think anybody, I don't think Atlanta knew he could do this. It just didn't seem like he could shoot. It always seemed like he had quick hands and he was something, but this is crazy to watch. I mean, you could argue just Murray for Daniels would have made sense, but yeah, he's, it was really interesting watching him guard LeBron a couple of weeks ago.

Yeah. I mean, that was the one guy down block. Yeah. That was the one guy where this, it was like, okay, well maybe you might be the best defensive perimeter guy in the league, but if somebody's six, nine to 70, that might still be a problem for you. But it seems like everybody else where he's really tough and what the Knicks should watch out for is if we get Knicks Hawks and like around one.

And Daniels on Brunson is bad for the Knicks. That's just flat out not good. Oh, and don't forget Trey Young rolling the dice on the Knicks logo. He loves going up to that building. Again, the Eastern Conference, here we are again. Positive podcast. The Eastern Conference is not the dumpster fire we thought it was early in the season, Bill. In Atlanta, 11-4 in their last 15. Dyson Daniels.

has recharged their defensive identity. They have Richa Shea. They're letting him grow. DeAndre Hunter, as you mentioned, is great. Okongwu. They just have an identity. Quinn Snyder deserves some love here too. Figuring it out on the fly and maybe finding a playoff team. There's some love for his wardrobe and his look too.

So every time they cut to him in the sidelines, I'm like, is this a bit? What's he doing? What does Jacoby call it? The Sally Jesse Raphael glasses. I think the Great Barrier Thief is one of the great nicknames in the contemporary NBA. I couldn't agree more. Great Barrier Thief is, I don't know who came up with that, but kudos. Can I give you, what do you think Atlanta's over under is on FanDuel right now? They're 18 and 15. Oh.

So we're, uh, cause they update the winds. What do you think there? Cause I bet this twice and I might go back for thirds. What do you think it is right now? 43 and a half, 42 and a half. Like to me, they're over, I guess to me, they're top six teams. So right now it's Cleveland, Boston, Knicks, zombie, zombie magic at 2014.

Atlanta's fifth and Milwaukee's sixth because they just had the Damiana stuff. So they're only 16 and 14. And then underneath them is Miami, Indiana, Chicago, Detroit. Philly lurking now at 13 and 17 with a chance to get to 500. We'll see. They have a tough schedule in January. I'll be interested to see how many games Abid actually plays. But I think Atlanta's going to be a top 16. Quick Philly interlude. What is your takeaway from that Christmas game? Yeah.

As a Boston guy. I just thought Philly played that game like it was a game seven and Boston played it like it was another game in the schedule. And it's going to happen. I didn't think that much away from it. I think that's a great point. I think that's what Boston, they're going to get that every night. I mean, Indiana got them again. They're getting everybody's best. Welcome to a title defense. This is one of the reasons it's hard. Everybody's like, oh, okay, let's bring our A game. So,

I don't think they were. Yeah, I don't think they were ready for what was going to happen. Here's the Celtics stretch coming up that I'm going to be really interested in. Thursday at Minnesota, Friday at Houston, Sunday at Oklahoma City, Tuesday at Denver. And we're going to have a much better idea after those games. They'll play two awesome games, probably have one shitty game and then one either or game would be my guess.

But last year they would have ripped through and won all four of those games. And that's the difference with that. Last year's team had a chip on its shoulder. They wanted to rip through the schedule. Every time they lost, it felt like an accident. This year, we'll see. Like, could they go on four on those? I wouldn't be surprised. Let's take a break and then I have a couple more for you. All right. The All Positive NBA podcast returns with Kurt Goldsberry's next one. What do you got?

Inside the NBA is perfect sports television. And we've seen it be saved from potential doom. It was doomed, Bill Simmons. The inside the NBA was left for dead there for a few months. And I got a chance to visit with those guys in Atlanta when I was doing those data casts. And I love it. I think I speak for millions of NBA fans.

Unlike the NFL, unlike Major League Baseball, NBA fans have this incredible pre and post game show. And I think, you know, there was the world's worst take a couple weeks ago that it was actually bad for the NBA. That's terrible. Charles Barkley is probably the GOAT sports media guy since Madden, probably. And I just love that we have this Turner crew and this TNT crew. And I'm happy that we're going to have it going forward. I have no notes.

I do worry about them a little bit with how ESPN does basketball and whether they'll have enough time to actually do content before, during, and after games. Yeah, I think I share some of that concern as a veteran. I think the Turner people share some of that concern too. All right, my next one for the all positive NBA pod.

Brooklyn as an old school tanking trade machine team. They said it couldn't be done with the second apron era. Uh, they said, they said the Picasso, the trade machine wouldn't be able to paint during February. Well, guess what? Brooklyn's already made two trades. They have this giant Ben Simmons expiring. They have a determined, uh, thing to be bad. They have cam Johnson, uh,

who I think there's going to be a little bit of a fun bidding war. And he actually has a tradable contract. Don't sleep on Nick Claxton. Maybe, you know, he's a contract in the low mid twenties as a rim protector kind of alley-oop guy. Like could Atlanta turn Capella into Nick Claxton? I don't even know if that makes them better, but there's stuff like that floating around with them. But then big picture,

If they do this correctly, I mean, let's say, I think they're definitely trading Cam Johnson. He's 28 years old. They should, they definitely want to get worse. If they also traded Claxton, they'd be like $120 million under the cap heading into the summer, which now gives everybody leverage. Like somebody like Jimmy Butler or Miami is like, where are you going to go? And he's like, well, I actually do have a place to go. It's right there. It's Brooklyn. They become leverage for

Zion, basically they become the island of misfit toys for every player and team that we don't know what they're going to do this summer. I really appreciate that they exist because if they didn't, I don't know what we would do for fake trades. It's like Walmart on Black Friday. The Brooklyn Nets in January of 2025. 50% off. Cam Johnson right now, lightning deal.

But to Sean Marks' credit, one of the worst things that can happen to a front office is these trade demands. And he lived through one of them. And they got back these pieces, Bill. And now they're able to spin it off into future team building resources. So I know they want to keep their draft pick. I had one of the team sources say, hey, if we start winning, watch out. We're going to start trading players. That's what they've done already. Schroeder.

is out. And I think, you know, Cam Johnson is out. I guess. I shouldn't say that. Yeah, I should say Cam Johnson is likely. Everybody could. Cam Johnson's on his way out. They're trading Cam Johnson.

Slide them into any team in the league, they get better. And Claxton, I agree with. Ben Simmons, I don't think so. But maybe that would be a Sean Marks masterpiece. But I think they're not done. And I think Claxton and Cam Johnson are the ones to watch. Maybe even Cam Thomas or somebody like the Houston Rockets that don't have a go-to score. But I definitely think Cam Johnson is the number one player to watch on the trade market right now.

Well, you mentioned this on the Ringer NBA show yesterday. There's also a really fun scenario where Cam Thomas is the only guy left just shooting 40 shots a game.

And it's like just the perfect, can Cam Johnson average, could he basically do Kobe 2006 for the last two months of the season? Cam Thomas has 81 points. Oh my God. Yeah. I stole that from you. I think when you saw the scoring title odds at the beginning of the year, you were high on Cam Thomas. Yeah. Don't count him out. He could shoot 40 times a game a few times down the stretch here. What do you have for your next one?

I mean, I think we have to talk about Nicole Jokic, dude. I think like 10 years ago, I got a text yesterday and a friend of mine was like, Hey, you have Jokic on a TV, right? He has a chance to get a 40 2010. Like I'll put them on now. I wasn't going to watch Denver, Utah. There were better games, but fine.

I feel like they should broadcast games differently for the Nuggets because I just want to watch Jokic. I just want a Jokic cam the whole game, particularly on offense. Oh, like the 22 man in football where they just have a wide shot just focused on him doing stuff? Yeah. Yeah, like the NBA 2K, my player. But I think he's about to turn 30. We have Jokic or, you know, Wemby at 20, LeBron at 40. This is the guy in his prime right now. Yeah. If you would have told me 10 years ago at the midpoint,

of the 2010s, Spurs are defending champs, Warriors are about to take the league by storm. If you would have told me in that time that the best player in the world

in the mid part of the 2020s was the giant Serbian center. Who's not very fast, not quick. I would have said you were crazy, but one of the things I love about NBA basketball bill is you don't know what the next thing is going to be. And you've alluded to this, I think in your NBA ratings monologue is like, we don't know what's going to happen in this league. And I think he's a perfect embodiment of sort of one of those unicorn moments where like, what this guy's going to come along. Here's a stat.

He's currently averaging more points per game than Shaq ever did in his entire career. More rebounds per game than Tim Duncan ever did in his entire career. He is averaging more assists per game than Chris Paul has ever done in his entire career. And he's making 49% of his threes, which is like Kyle Korver numbers. This is insanity. Watch him, people. This is the best show in pro basketball. Yeah, right now, third in assists, second in points, third in rebounds.

Where is he on the, he's, what's he shooting on the threes now? It's down to 49%. No, but he's leading the league in threes, 49%. So second in points, third rebounds, third assists, first in three-point shooting. It's fucking crazy. That'll never happen again. It's like an NBA 2K make your own player thing and you move all the bars to 99, except for rim protection and like fitness or whatever. But you made the guy chubby.

I have some quick ones. The Pistons are not the Pistons anymore. The Pistons were so sad for so long. And now they're a fun watch. I would rank them as my stealth, most fun Eastern Conference watch behind the Hawks. Cade, I think is one of the 16 or 17 has to be on the all-star team guys for what he's doing night to night. And they also have an interesting trade bait piece that I'm not sure they even think about doing this year. Maybe they do, but they have Harris and Hardaway at 41 million combined.

They have all kinds of flexibility in all kinds of directions. And I'm just watching them because they're right around 500. The East is a little bit weird after that six spot. Cade is a guy. Ivy is compared to when Monte Williams was playing Killian Hayes over him. That's what a dramatic come around that's been. I like what they've done with Beasley and Harris and Hardaway. Just the same thing you talked about with San Antonio. We're just like,

veterans who've been in the league for a while who kind of know how to show up and just be professional. But there's also like, Hey, could this be like a Jimmy Butler, like out of nowhere team? Could this be, um, like just fuck it. Let's add Zach Levine to this. Like, could this be a, I don't know who like go through the week, go find guys that might be able to, could this be a cam Johnson team? Um,

I feel like there's a trade for them and I think they should do it because Cade's really, really, really good and way better than I thought he was going to be. I think he's an absolute guy. I would love to see them get one more guy. Yeah. I love Cade Cunningham. I think he's finally clicked into what we thought he could be at the draft. And I agree. I mean, coaching changes matter. And I think this, this new coach has brought in sort of a new, uh,

And that term is overused, but it just feels differently. I love B.U. Stu, by the way, is my favorite league pass player. Isaiah Stewart. You never know what's going to happen when he's out there. Great bench guy. I wish the Celtics had him.

But sort of like Houston last year, there was something cooking, but we don't know what it is. Right. Orlando two years ago. Like, yeah, you see, there's, you can see the breadcrumbs to something really good happening with them. And I think they've at least reached that point. OKC a couple of years ago.

Yeah, the thing I always say, Bill, is like the road from bad to good always has to go through average or mediocre on the way, you know, and that's where they are. And that's a good sign. This is where they wanted to be this year. And again, like the Spurs, they're a little bit better than we thought. Yeah. And I think they should be excited about the next couple of years in Detroit. Goldsberry, they just did this trip. They did a three game trip at Phoenix, at Lakers, at Kings. Won all of them.

Yeah. And it had a dramatic, uh, come from behind win against the Kings too. So that's one I wanted to mention the Pistons and, uh, and I wanted to mention the zombie magic really quick. They're 20 and 14. Paolo's played five games. He's really played four and a half games cause he got hurt. Franz has played 25 games, really 24 and a half cause he got hurt. Um, they're shooting 30.8% from three.

They are running crunch time plays for Tristan De Silva and Jalen Suggs. They lost Mo Wagner who you'd be like, ah, they lost Mo Wagner. Like Mo Wagner was important for them. And they're 20 and 14 and they're just hanging around and they're a really hard team to play. Like they beat the Celtics last week and I'm watching it going, I don't understand how we're going to lose this game, but it made sense when you were watching it. Cause Orlando was just ready for the challenge playing super hard. Um,

Mosley to me, I wasn't sure about Mosley, but what he's getting out of that team, Atkinson's the coach of the year favorite, but I think Mosley, this team finishes with like 46, 47 wins, not having Palo, not having Franz. Like that's fucking insane. So he's got to be in there.

I left them for dead two or three times. Oh, okay. They can't do this without. Then Franz shows up and then Franz goes out and then they start sucks as the guy. And now, you know, they lose Mo. Uh, they made a run in the in-season tournament.

And yeah, God, look, if they get whole before the Eastern conference playoffs, I don't care if you're Cleveland, Boston or New York, nobody wants to see that. Nobody wants to. That's the worst case there. Yeah. The worst case there are eight seed. If you're the one seed, you're like, really? I got these guys now they're healthy because I assume Paolo and Franz will be back. So I wanted to mention them. What do you have? Cause I have two more.

I have sort of, well, I think this will sort of segue. I think the magic and the rockets and the thunder sort of reminding us that the NBA is a young man's game. Um, but on the flip side of that, superstars are sort of aging gracefully, but in a weird way, like we're able to go see LeBron. Like I was able to take my family to see LeBron and San Antonio this year. Um, Stefan, Katie, like as a Larry Bird scholar, um,

Magic Johnson scholar, you know, it's, it's not always, you don't always get to see these guys after 35. And I think one of the cool things is we can go see LeBron James in 2025 and we can go see Kevin Durant and Stephen Curry in their late thirties. And it's not like a nostalgia act. These guys are great. Like,

What LeBron and Stefan did on Christmas, and I know you talked about it, was awesome. They might not be championship contenders, but again, in terms of the depth of league pass offerings, some of these old dudes are bringing special things to league pass on a regular basis. And 37-year-olds aren't necessarily sort of dead weight anymore. And I think that's great for the league. I would throw in Chris Paul, too.

I had actually for the all positive playing off that the fact that the Lakers aren't a disaster, I'm going to remove my abject hatred for the Lakers and the Yankees, the two teams I hate the most. It's also not good when the Lakers are bad. It's the same thing. Like we talked about the Knicks, like the league's just more fun when the Lakers are competent or good. Even I would admit that. And I can't stand them. There was a moment when this seemed like the season was going to get really dark and

And that the, the, this LeBron season was going to get dark. The season was going to get dark. The JJ thing was going to get dark. The defense was absolutely abominable. They kind of rallied, rallied around it and passed it. Um, LeBron going away for eight days. I think the schedule really helped. They really lucked out right as things were creating or all of a sudden we had that NBA cup thing. They've had some, some good schedule luck, right? They got to play Sacramento three times, right? As Sacramento was completely falling apart.

but I feel like they've kind of saved this a little bit, you know, like the fact that Max Christie's a competent rotation guy. Now he wasn't a month ago. The fact that they were able to get Finney Smith for what basically giving up nothing. Um, they're not going to be bad, I guess is my point. And I think if you're talking about like, I don't want to watch LeBron on an awful team. Like this guy carried the league this century, you know? And, um,

At least they're relevant, I guess is my point. I think them just sucking and not having their pick, it's just like a dark story. And at least that's not going to happen. And now I think I want to pour gasoline on myself and set myself on fire that I just praised. That's fine.

Well, in the all positive NBA podcast, I think, you know, the NBA is a collection of markets. And when LA and New York are relevant, it's good. It's good for television. It's good for, for, for matchups like Celtics. It's also good because they're on fucking national TV all the time because those are the teams they put on. So we might as well have them be good over terrible.

And one of the things that Brian Windhorst always talks about is the league also always back loads LeBron's second half of the schedule. He always has a lot of national TV games after football ends, you know, so they could have a really tough go.

But I think they have another trade to make. I love Dorian Finney-Smith there. It took like three years too long to get an actual three-point shooting wing back in his life. I still think they're one or two pieces away. But if they have luck with health, I believe in J.J. Redick as a coach. I believe in LeBron James as somebody who can sort of

figure out how to endure through this marathon season and get to the playoffs in one piece. Anthony Davis is the biggest question mark. If they can add one, maybe two more pieces around those guys. Again, nobody wants to see them in the playoffs. I think people want to see them in the playoffs. Yeah. I wouldn't mind seeing them in the playoffs. I'm just, the question for me is that I did. I want to see them at all during the season. And now at least we can say, all right, this is kind of a fun team.

Come on. In the playoffs, I want to see them. They're not making round three in the playoffs. Come on. Ask me again to the All-Star break. Get me to the All-Star break. I think there's a potential for either answer there. Admittedly, I don't think Memphis would be scared if it showed up. LeBron's too old. I don't see him being able to

Once we get into the part of the schedule where you have to play like every other day, I just don't see it. I don't see how he would have the energy. We saw in the beginning when they were playing in big minutes, he lasted a month. He had to take an eight-day sabbatical. Davis is the one. Maybe he could throw the team on his back. Finney Smith, I've always liked. I thought his quotes were really interesting after the trade.

Like he's a really smart player. It's the kind of guy that's worked well with LeBron where he was talking about how they used him in Brooklyn. And it was a lot of like top of the key threes and a lot of him with the ball. And he's like, I'm actually better off if I'm in the corner. That was when I was at my best with Luca. Now I get to go back to that. I was like, all right, this guy, this would be a good one for them. I have another one for you. This is mostly positive. There's a negative component to it, but I don't want to focus on that.

Zion trades. This has been a big topic on text and talking to different people who know things and people involved with teams. What is Zion as a trade asset? What's he worth? Would you do it?

Is this salvageable? Like that, that ESPN wrote a piece about it this week about how goofy his deal is. Basically, it's not guaranteed for the last three years, but you can keep picking it up. So it's almost like an NFL contract with no real salary cap ramifications. Somebody is going to talk themselves into it. If you're New Orleans, you probably have to cut bait at some point. And I think it's going to be a really fun story.

over the next six weeks, which is why I put it in the all positive NBA storyline, because I still think Zion's incredibly talented. I think he plays for the single worst franchise you could play for in the NBA at this point. I want to see him go to a place that will treat him like a plant and water him every day and put him in the sun and put little chemicals and try to help him grow versus where he is now, which is the worst situation you can be in. Would you trade for Zion?

It depends on who I am. I think if risk were a human being, it would wear number one on its New Orleans jersey. I think that's what we're looking at. There's just so much risk there. And if I'm a good team, no. If I feel good about my team now or in the next couple of years, I'm not going to give up anything relevant to bring in that kind of risk. If I'm the Kings...

If I'm the Blazers, I'm having very different conversations because I need something. I need an injection of something. And if that guy turns it around, Major If, he's one of the best players in the league. He's one of the best players in the league. The guy we've seen at his absolute peak is unstoppable in the paint. Can't be the king. Shaq, Giannis, and Zion, the top paint scorers of the 21st century by season. He's that good. Yeah.

If he gets into some sort of rhythm with availability and health and nutrition, it's worth looking. There's whiteboard discussions happening in struggling NBA front offices right now. And yet, that's not what can happen. He can't go to the Kings. He can't go to Portland. This goes back to my plan analogy. I get your point. Those franchises are like, hey, this could be an incredible role of the dice.

to me, he has to go to an awesome organization that will really put some thought and love and care into this. Um, and to me, it's Miami or San Antonio. If I'm Miami, it makes a lot of sense. If I'm Miami, this is the guy I'm really thinking about. And especially if I, if this Butler thing keeps going sideways and could it be a three way or whatever, um,

Could we get Zion? Could we save this? Could we salvage this? Could we turn him into an awesome asset? And is there a world two years from now where we have Bam and Zion and Tyler Hero, and that's like our version of a big three? Because Hero's been fantastic this year. He's just a really, really elite offensive player now. You're not getting anywhere. If Michael Pena wrote about this today for...

for the ringer. If Bam and Hero are your two guys, you're not doing anything. You still need that awesome somebody. So Zion and then San Antonio is one of those like if San Antonio traded for Zion, guess what the reaction in the league would be? Oh shit. Right. That would be it. It's like, oh no. Wemby and Zion? Oh no.

You know, and I think those are the two teams. Maybe there's some others, but those are the two I was focused on. Like he sent him to Chicago. He sent him to Detroit. I just, I don't know how it's different.

Yeah, it's super depressing, right? Because he still has a very high ceiling. And a lot of front officers are simply not going to take the risk. It's a non-starter for a lot of the general managers around the league. That kind of risk in this NBA where you can't have one bad contract and compete for a championship. It seems like that's where we're going. But the contract isn't...

Nearly as risky is what makes this so fascinating. It's a risk, but it's also not a risk. It depends what you give up. It's non-guaranteed next year or something like that, right? There's weight stuff and there's game stuff where over and over again, you can get out of it. We'll see what happens. I just keep thinking of the teams that if they traded for him, what the reaction would be.

Right. And Miami and San Antonio are the two where people are like, oh, fuck. Oh, man, they're going to figure this out with them. We've just seen it in the NBA over the. And I don't know what else to do with that New Orleans team, because Ingram clearly has no trade value with as an expiring free agent. They would have traded him already. They're in a weird spot with CJ and DeJounte, who they just traded for. They have all these picks. I just I don't know what to do.

They have really good tradable pieces beyond that. I mean, I don't know if they want to do that, but they got some shooters and some wing defenders that would make every team in the NBA look a little bit better. So if they want to press the explode button, I think they have some some draft capital and maybe some young players they can get back. And guess what? Nobody wants to go there. But now we're now we're not being positive anymore. Do you have one more? Because I have two more.

This one is sort of in jest, but I love the Washington Wizards because they let you see the GM's vision of every opponent. So if your team is playing the Wizards, I recommend you go watch it because this is what the front office envisioned when they put their team together. Whatever they're going to get against the Wizards, clean looks, layups, everything.

Great stops. I encourage everybody to go. It's almost like the Washington Generals, right? The Wizards are one of the best teams to go watch right now at home. Like if your team's playing the Wizards at their home arena, go see it, folks. This is the best your team's going to look all year. It's like scrimmaging in a hotel conference. What are those rooms called? The draft workout video against the chair that you always call out. Yeah. Well, playing off what you just said,

in the all positive NBA draft. I kind of love how weird the 2024 draft is and how many guys that kind of like research, I mentioned him already. Steph castle all in a little bit of a rookie wall where he's saying, but I'm all in messy on, uh, on the Pelicans. Like he's a real center and he, I think he's like 15 years old, but he's definitely a real center who will get a big contract. Jared McCain, this Jalen Wells kid on Memphis. Yeah.

Zach Eady on Memphis, who's averaging like 11 and eight. And you feel his presence in some of these games. And there's matchups against certain teams where it's kind of, I really liked him in the draft because I just felt like there's going to be games and nights where he just sucks to play against. You know, it's like, we don't have a guy. Porzingis is out tonight. Now we have Lou Carnette, you know, trying to stop Zach Eady. Dalton Connect. I like Donovan Klingon. Tristan Da Silva.

was a pretty polarizing prospect, but I think he's been a borderline revelation on the magic. Bob Carrington, who a lot of people liked. I don't think Sar, I'm not willing to say he's a bust. I think there's something there. I really like Bud Zealous. I don't know how much you've watched him on Chicago, but I almost feel like they have to trade Zach Levine just to get him to play. I like the way that guy, I like how he runs the floor. I like how athletic he is. I

I'd like him there. And I think he's a little feisty. He's got a little chip on his shoulder and then Ron Holland and dibbing him, dilling him and a Jacoby Walter. There's something there with all three of those guys. So that's a lot of guys that I think all have a chance to be a starter in the NBA, which is basically what we're looking for in the draft. There's no high ceiling superstar when B type version, but it's a fun draft. Do you like this draft or am I overreacting?

I think if you contextualize it like you did, yeah, I like it. I think it's going to go down in history as a relatively weak class, especially sandwiched by the Wembley draft and then what we're getting in the Cooper flag class. I love Steph Castle. I'm disappointed one player you didn't mention, Reed Shepard, who I wanted to be better than that. We just haven't seen him. We haven't really seen him yet. He's kind of, well, that's an unrelated story. He's not shooting the ball well, and if he's not shooting the ball well,

It's hard for him to find justification to get minutes, especially in a Houston environment where they're trying to win games. And they're trying to play defense and there are two seeds and they don't have time for a project. Hey, can you be Mark Price someday? They don't want to. They don't care. They want to win games.

Yeah, but when you're drafted that high, Bill, right? Like, I don't care if you're a two-seater. That player, you're drafted in that slot. You should find rotation minutes. But I've been disappointed by Riyad. Yeah, that's a good point. I'm not done with him by any means. But I think the other players you mentioned, De Silva, I think, is the one that jumps out. I was like, what? Okay. And again, this Orlando team, this culture, next man up mentality. He's great. Dalton Connect has been a big piece of why the Lakers are above water right now.

And, uh, Reese to Shay is going to be good. I think the Hawks made the right choice in retrospect. If we redrafted, it would be hard for me to put anybody above him right now. Um, is that what you, if you redrafted, would you, would you go Reese to Shay? If you're the Hawks, I think he fits into what they're doing. Like we were talking about it earlier for, for, for what they are and what they're trying to be probably makes the most sense. I still really like castle. I liked him the most heading into the draft. Um,

I just think he has it. There's that guy has all the, he checks all the boxes of what I want and the shooting, I think we'll get there eventually. But for them, I think you're right. I think for, if you're just trying to have these interchangeable, tall athletic dudes, he makes more sense for them. So check out Bud's Ellis though. I'm, I'm, I'm in on him. They might've actually stumbled into a one of them. All right. Here's, here's another one I had for you.

So, and this is coming off. I went, I took my daughter to the Clipper game the other night. I got to give them credit, man. That is the best NBA arena, hands down. Best atmosphere. Everything, everything.

everything Ballmer did where there's like no TVs in the lobbies, there's no TVs in the clubs, there's no TVs when you're going by a hot dog, everything is built around, get back into your seats. He wants people in there. He's got that whole section behind the court that really does. They start chance. They do all kinds of things. There's more energy at those games.

than Laker games. They really have flipped this where the Lakers now look like they're the rinky-dink franchise with the Staples Center, which is just old now and doesn't have the same vibe as this Clippers thing. This is the first time the Clippers have ever turned the tables on the Lakers and made them feel like they're just kind of more modern and more on it. The Lakers still have bigger stars, but

I'll tell you this, that letting Paul George go over the third, fourth year thing, they did offer him three years. So I don't want to praise them too much, but not going for trying to patch it together with, with defense role guys, flexibility, and then banking on Harden and Powell being able to carry all the offense. It works. Dan Gundy on the defense. It works. They're really well coached.

Smart team that's taken advantage of this crazy, you mentioned it earlier with aging superstars. Harden, this is the best he's looked in a while. I don't think he had, never has the ball too much. I think he's found the right balance of, he takes over when they need him, but he doesn't have it all the time.

And I think they're really hard. They win these games at the end of games. Like you watch like the last five minutes, like I feel like they're going to get stops. What they're getting from zoo bots, who I just want to mention was traded for Mike Mascala by magic Johnson and the Lakers. One of the worst trades the last 10 years. Um, but they have an actual home court advantage. I think they're a playoff team and I was completely wrong on them. I thought they're going to suck.

They're good. I'll go one step further. I mean, there's a crazy what if there. If Kawhi can be 88% of Kawhi Leonard for the last few months of the regular season...

I love this team. I love their coach. James Harden remains somehow underrated. Norman Powell has been a revelation. But if Kawhi Leonard can come back and have one really good five-month stretch here, that's a pretty dangerous team. Yeah, because here are the minutes he's taking. He would be taking... Coffey's playing almost 25 minutes a game. Porter was playing 20 minutes a game. Derek Jones said they're going to need even when Kawhi comes back.

And then Batum was playing 18 minutes game. So they have minutes where it's just, he's an immediate upgrade of, of this kind of patchwork, you know, wings that they have. I'm with you. I'll tell you this body language doctor was really studying them. Happiest I've seen Kawhi on the bench in a couple of years.

a lot of Kawhi Harden stuff during the timeouts. Kawhi at one point in the fourth quarter, Harden wasn't playing and they were talking during a timeout and Kawhi was doing the exaggerated overlap thing with Harden. Like it seems like they actually like each other. The vibes are great. Everyone seems like they love being Gundy. And in general, like I, I think, I don't think they're going to go away was my takeaway from, uh, from what I've watched, but also seeing them in person. Like it was interesting. Golden state,

finally did the one thing I don't think teams realize that they should do. Nobody on the Clippers can dribble. I don't know if you've noticed this. They can dribble in the half court, like Harden obviously could dribble, but nobody wants to dribble the first 50 feet of the court

So it'll be like Chris Dunn. It'll be Harden who doesn't want to work at all. Norman Powell. They really don't have anybody. And I was with my daughter and we're watching. I'm like, I don't understand why they won't press. I don't understand why people don't press the Clippers. I'm saying that my daughter who knows barely knows anything about basketball. And then the Warriors started pressing in the fourth quarter and they started getting all these turnovers. And she's like, dad, how'd you know? And I was like, cause nobody on the Clippers can dribble. But that's, so that's their one weakness is they don't have like that.

You know, I think pressure is an issue for them. Let me ask you this, Bill. Do you feel like that arena will bring a home court advantage to those Clippers in the playoffs? Yes, I do. I really do. I really, Jay, even that game, there were Warriors fans at that game Saturday night, but the Clipper fans were loud. And I think they liked the team. The Harden thing, I just can't believe because he was my least favorite player to see in person.

And actually kind of enjoyed the two games I've been to. I've actually enjoyed them. I was saying to the guy, Mike Tolan, I shared tickets with, I was like, I'm actually going to go to a bunch of Clipper games. Like I like going, I had a good time. Uh, the vibe's good. It's just the thumbs up. So bomber, like, I don't know how much, what, what did he spend? Like however many billion dollars, uh,

It was fucking worth it because he's not like the black sheep brother of the Staples Center anymore. You know, he actually has good NBA dates and there's a real vibe in the arena. So thumbs up. Great job, Clippers. Yeah. You're talking me into it. I think, yeah, I'll watch these Kawhi return games with newfound interest. Maybe a dark horse in the West. That's great for the all positive NBA podcast. A Kawhi comeback.

to what already exists, if he can be healthy, it's just a really fun story. You know? Kawhi, if you throw away the playoffs last year, but before he got hurt beginning of last year, he looked like one of the 15 best guys in the league.

We've seen him in 2019. Isn't that long ago? He put a team on his shoulders and got on there. He's not that guy anymore, but he can win a playoff game. He can play good defense, get rebounds, make big shots and crunch time. James Harden can create shots. But yeah, I mean, banking on, you have to be in an all positive podcast, Bill Simmons, to bank on Kawhi's long-term health and James Harden's postseason. You really have to be in a positive environment to project them as a potential sleeper.

I think Harden, the word in the street is he's matured with some of his off-the-court stuff. Is the word in the street? Who knows? Last thing, just quickly, is the all-star arguments are going to be great for the All Positive Pod. We have just the guards of the West, SGA, Harden, Anthony Edwards, Kyrie, Curry, Booker, Fox, and Jha.

I'm positive all those guys can't make the team. Centers, Jokic, Wemby, Sabonis, Davis, Shangoon, and Jaron Jackson on a really good Memphis team. Houston might not have an all-star. They're a two seed. And then you go with the East. If Brunson and Mitchell and Cade all make it, we still have to figure out Maxie, Dame, Trey, Hero, and Garland. We have to figure out how many Cavs all-stars there are.

I just think there's a lot of good players. And when everybody starts doing their all-star pods in two weeks, people are like, holy shit, a lot of good players.

And then we'll complain about the all-star game, but we're not going to be all positive. It's going to be a Stephen Curry celebration weekend. Most people call it the all-star weekend, but it's going to be Stephen Curry's convention. So he's definitely making it. I don't know what they'll have to do, but he's definitely in bill. There's no way that they're going to host it. Well, SGA Harden Harden has to make it. Yeah. Ant has to make it. I,

I think Kyrie has to make it. And I think Curry has to make it. So that's five guards. And we haven't talked about Booker Fox or Jai yet. Jai, you can maybe dig on some of the missed games.

But, uh, but that's crazy that we're Booker and Fox aren't going to be in the all-star game. I think that's where we're heading. So the league is loaded. That's it for the all positive NBA podcast. Unless you had any, uh, last, last things. That was good. I just, I just want to say to my beloved Texas Longhorns that are playing football tomorrow against Arizona state, uh, hook them horns. Let's see. Let's see a win and get to the semifinals bill.

Listen, I'm feeling positive about that. I'm feeling positive about everything in general as we head to the end of 2025. What a positive ending. This is great. We didn't even talk about the Kings. I had a whole, I was going to make fun of the Kings. I'm not going to do it because this is the all positive NBA podcast. Thanks Kyle Creighton for producing. I think Cerruti's on this. I think Gahal's on this as well. Next time you see me, it'll be 2021.

25 on the Thursday podcast. Enjoy New Year's. Have a great New Year's Eve. Kirk Goldsberry, good luck with Texas. Happy New Year. Thank you, Bill.