The Celtics Blow It Up and More Predraft Story Lines With Chris Mannix
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The Bill Simmons podcast is presented by State Farm. We are also presented by the Ringer Podcast Network, where you can find a new episode of the Rewatchables Die Hard with a Vengeance as part of New York City Month. It was me and Van Lathan and Chris Ryan. It was a lot of fun. A lot of time talking about this movie trope, especially with John McClane, where somebody saves a lot of people twice.

And yet nobody believes in them. And, uh, and they're still disparaged by their bosses and they don't get like a movie made about their life. They don't get to be on a TV show. None of that stuff. It's just, it's like it never happened. Um, John McClane, probably the best example of that. Anyway, we dove into that and a lot of subplots, uh,

With the, uh, with the movie as well. We got one more New York city movie coming, uh, next Monday. And, uh, you can watch all those on Spotify as video podcasts. You watch on the ringer movies, YouTube channel, however you want them. Uh, on this podcast, Chris Mannix and I are going to break down the funeral of the 2024 Celtics and a bunch of other stuff heading into the NBA draft on Wednesday night after the NBA draft, after round one, I am going to be there.

with J Kyle Mann and Joe house. And we're going to be reacting and Joe house. He has got the six pick in the draft. I don't know if we're getting drunk house, but we're definitely getting at least buzzed house. We'll see what happens. Uh, but we'll be ready to go on, uh, uh, right after the draft. Can't wait. One of my favorite days of the year. I don't know why they moved it from Thursday to, uh, Wednesday, but it's fine. We adjust. Now we got round two on Thursdays. It'd be fun. Anyway, Chris Mannix next. We're going to take a break. We're going to bring in our friends from Pearl jam and then we're off.

This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years. And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home, car, and more. Whether you need an in-person or digital assist, they're ready when life hits you with a full court press. Get a game plan.

that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer availability and eligibility vary by state. All right. It's been a while. Chris Mannix is here. We're taping this a little after 4.30 Pacific time in the afternoon. It's kind of waiting for stuff to happen today. We had the Drew Holiday trade last night and then

Chris Hapsporzingas sent to Atlanta today. Chris Mannix, the 2024 Celtics funeral is here. They lopped off miraculously.

$28 million in two trades. They got under the second apron, which doesn't just save them almost 200 million in luxury tax, but also has all these other positive roster benefits. There still might be another trade because I think both of us feel like there might be a Sam Houser something. They want to bring back Luke Cornett. They want to potentially bring back Al Horford. So there's some other stuff happening. But did you think it was going to be this simple?

for the Celtics to cut that much money when you have to take contracts back in trades. And somehow Simon's $5 million less than Drew Holiday. And then Niang is $22 million less than Porzingis. This was a borderline miracle. I thought they made some great deals and I thought they found the exact right partners to deal with. Like,

You might think like, hey, what does Portland need Drew Holiday for? Like, they're not good. But Portland is trying to build this defensive identity. And Portland clearly had no interest in giving Anthony Simons any kind of money after this season. They did that once. They weren't going to do it again. So really what the Blazers are doing with Holiday is taking the two years off.

on his deal, getting him on a basically a three-year deal for a guy like that. They can live with that. And look, the Celtics can just take this flyer on Simons, let him shoot 500 threes next year and walk away from him. Maybe he shows them something. Maybe he wants to be there. Maybe it clicks, but they can just walk away from that. Atlanta, they're...

They're another perfect partner. Like, they were looking to do... They didn't really want to just blow the whole thing up and trade away Trey and reboot that whole thing. They didn't... I never got the vibe from them that that was kind of what they were looking for over the last few weeks. You know, Porzingis, at his best, looks like a really good fit playing opposite Trey Young. And...

Like, contract year Chris Desporzingas is going to ball out. Like, the last time we saw contract year-ish, Porzingas was in Washington, and he put up huge numbers there. I think you're going to get the very best of Chris Desporzingas. So, look, the circumstances suck. The Celtics are not going to be good next year. You know, probably be lucky to fight for, I mean, I guess the Eastern Conference, anything is possible. But they're probably a play-in type of team. But...

I thought they did really well given the circumstances because they found the two teams out there that needed exactly what they had. Well, I'm going to reach into my zag bag. I have multiple zags for everything you just said. Okay. First of all, I'm not sure the Celtics are going to be that bad next year in this weird Eastern Conference. Is it the Celtics fan side of me just kicking in? I was looking at the roster and I'm like, man,

Holiday in the playoffs and in the Knicks series, I thought looked pretty rough. That was a team that I think four years ago, I was talking to my dad about this yesterday because my dad was visiting. We were like, four years ago, Holiday against Brunson, Holiday guarding Towns. You could have thrown Holiday on basically any Knick and he would have

been hugely impactful and he just wasn't in the Knicks series. I was a little nervous about him going forward. You flip him into Simons who fills this scoring void that they clearly need with Tatum, who I think, you know, Portland was pretty good down the stretch last year and he wasn't not a piece of that, you know? So I just...

I'm not willing to go play in yet with them. And I don't think they're wired that way. You have a new owner. I don't think he's going to be like, cool, let's go 35 and 47. Like you don't think Jalen Brown is going to be going, Hey, look at, look at the East. Indiana is now with this Halbert situation. Nick's new coach, who knows? Like you go on through and maybe Jalen Brown's like, this is my time now. I can carry us.

I don't know. I'm not, I'm, I think all bets are off with the 2025, 26 Celtics, including more trades and them just gutting shit. So let's dig into that a little bit. Like I love the lens that Brad Stevens is viewing this through. Like, like you might be right. Like Jalen Brown is probably a lock for an all NBA team. Assuming he meets the criteria next year. He's, I think he's going to be great. You know, Simons is going to score like they've got dark white. It's going to be dark white. They've got pieces there, but,

they're not a championship team. Like God, no, we'll get on board. Like, so I think what the Celtics probably look at and are saying like, all right, we can, you know, bring the band back, um,

pay the luxury tax penalties, uh, maybe, maybe slide under the second apron, who knows whatever they may do. And are we going to be happy with like this second round playoff exit? Like, is that a victory for them? Like to me, this is all setting up an aggressive summer and summer of the 20, 20, 26, when they can lose these repeater tax penalties, they can be under, uh, the second apron, maybe even under the first day apron. If they make a, uh, a few deals, uh,

I think they're setting themselves up for that 26-27 season. Well, you can't hit that point hard enough, though, because it's not just the money. It's all this weird roster shit that comes with being over the second apron and being a repeater. Like, it actually really does hurt your roster for multiple years. Kills it. And you have to get under it. So they did. Yeah, they did. I applaud them for that. Like, I don't...

I don't care about making the playoffs as a fourth seed and being feisty against the Knicks in the second round. I don't care about that. I don't think Brad Stevens cares about that either. This, to me, all these deals scream, like, let's just get through next year. Let's take the gap year. And then let's have flexibility. Like, we can go into 26-27 with...

still arguably one of the top five two-man duos in the NBA in Tatum and Brown. Like, that can be the core. Derek White is still under contract. He can be part of the core. Like, they're giving themselves room to operate in the summer of 2026. And all they're doing really is sacrificing, you know, whatever next year is going to look like. I mean, look, I did think Porzingis was kind of interesting to move off him, to him to be the first guy or one of the first guys you move off because, you know,

he loves it in Boston. He loves his role in Boston. He loves playing there. Everything about being a Celtic. Like, could you have convinced Porzingis next summer to sign for a lesser number? Maybe, maybe to be part of what they were doing there. Maybe you could have convinced him. Maybe you can still convince him to do that. If you have some room to operate. Thank you. How do we know he's not just moving to Atlanta for nine months and coming back? Yeah,

He might, or he can sign with the Wizards again for the gargantuan amount of cap space they're accruing. For $100 million a year. Exactly. So that was kind of interesting to me that they...

they moved off him as quickly as they did, but everything else, like I get it like this, there'll be a feisty fun team next year. I think Simon's going to have some great moments team. Like he's, he's got to put up like 40 point games at some point with them. Um, but they're not going to be good. I can't wait to talk about Simon's, but there's, so you said something interesting there. You said this allows them to be really aggressive in the summer of 2026. I don't disagree. Hmm.

What if it allows them to be really aggressive in January or February of 2026? Because the hidden piece of this, now they have Niang who's, I think he's expiring after this year, right? And then Simon, same thing. You put those together. I'm at 35 million with those two guys, right? I am now in the mix in a bunch of different ways now, right? What if the Celtics are better than they thought? What if Tatum's rehab is way ahead and they feel like he can come back and Martin, like

I just think they wanted malleability with the roster. And with Drew, which, you know, if you do the on-paper thing with the Drew Simons trade, you'd be like, whoa, Boston got a younger player and an expiring whose arrows still may be pointing up a tiny bit. Drew's arrow pointing down. That's not why Portland did the deal. I mean, Drew is like, you saw it.

And you were covering this else a little bit last year. Drew is one of the most beloved behind-the-scenes teammates in Milwaukee, in Boston. He was in Boston for two years, and I think he goes down. Him and Horford, I think, are going to go down as Hall of Fame, just everybody in the organization raving about people as people. If you're in Portland, you have this defensive identity you're building, but more importantly, you're bringing in an adult

an awesome guy, a role model, a leader, like just everything you're looking for if you're a younger team. And you have to factor that in with the trade. Even if he was slipping a little bit last year, the stuff he brings, like think about Horford, just the last few years of his career where it's like, I don't know, he's now almost 40, still doing it. Like Holiday might be able to be that guy for three, four more years, but it's the off the court stuff that I think

you know, they, that's just, you need that shit. Nobody's signing to go play in Portland. So anyway, I, I really liked that trade for both teams. You mentioned the Simon's piece, like, and obviously the West coast league pass. I've watched my share of Portland. I have a lot of scoot Henderson stock. Simon's will just go nuts. You have a lot of scoot Henderson stock. Me and Priscilla. We have most of it. We cornered the market. I respect it. I respected your knee Smith Island stock. I don't know. We have that. We bought it. We just invested in cam Whitmore Island. Okay. Um,

But Simons will just get super high. And you look at this. This is why I was talking back before about like, I don't know if the Celtics are gonna be that bad. You Pritchard and Simons out there. Those are like two of the better heat check guards in the league. You have Jalen, who's still a top 20 guy. You might have rebounding. You're gonna have a good coach. You have this philosophy of just gunning up threes. They're gonna be way worse defensively. Porzingis played half the year last year and then was a corpse in the playoffs because he wasn't healthy.

I don't know, like, I don't know how much worse the Tatum piece is the piece that's the disaster. But if you talk about the rest of it, like they might be all right. They might be an overachiever. I don't know. I'm prepared for anything. I'm prepared for a top five team, potentially, if everybody stays healthy and everything goes right for them. But again, that doesn't,

it doesn't get you anywhere. Like the, the, what I liked about it, the thing is, can they be fun though? I think is what matters. Cause if you're doing basically a gap year and you're resetting it, you can't give the Celtics run where the fans have just watched a really awesome team for eight years in a row. And you can't just be like, yeah, we don't care about this year. Like, I still feel like they care a little bit about this year. Right.

Yeah. Not to win a title, but just to be entertaining. I think we're looking at it. We're kind of, we kind of, you and I care about two different things. One, well, you care more than I do about them being fun next year. Like, I don't care. Fun and malleable are the two words I would use. I want them to have malleable roster and actually not be a disaster. Malleable is fine. I mean, they're not, with Jalen Brown and the talent they have, they're never going to be a disaster. And the conference that they're in that gets weaker by literally the day with the Halliburton injury, like it's going to be impossible for them to,

not to compete. Although, you know, God knows what the Wizards look like. They might be actually be better next year. Right. I just, I, I just don't, I don't care. Like I, I think what I know what Brad's doing is saying like, look, Tatum put whatever timeline you want on him.

but I'm skeptical Tatum comes back at all. Like, I don't see the point to it. Like, there's no way. People say in like eight, nine months. Like, in what world? Like, why would you drop him back into the lineup post-All-Star break when you might be in a playoff race? That's just a recipe for disaster. That makes no sense. Like, they have their pick in 2026. Like, that has to be factored in. Chris, don't ruin this for me. I'm just saying, man. Like, they've got their pick in 2026. Let them, I mean, Boston fans can accept a gap year where they stink out the joints

maybe even wind up with a lottery pick if they go the other way and are really bad. And all of a sudden, in the summer of 2026, you've got Tatum coming back. You've got Brown still there. You've got White still there. You've got the genius of Brad Stevens. And I think he's really good at this job. He was a really good coach. And he's also a really good general manager. You've got that all in play to shake up the roster one more time in the summer of 2026. I'm fine with that. I don't care if they win 30 games next year. I really don't.

All right, let's do this exercise then, Chris Mannix. Here's a Celtics team that's going to have Jalen Brown, Derek White, Peyton Pritchard, Anthony Simons, Niang. I'm going to throw in Horford and Cornette. Little Kata. Hold on, hold on. You think Horford's back.

I do. I think he finishes his career in Boston. I think it's hit that point with him. I think the market could be really interesting for Horford. If he... Look, maybe he wants the Stags. I don't know. He's made $300 million. I'm with you. But when I... You know, in the last few weeks, whenever I have off-season conversations with GMs, like...

Like a lot of it's like Al Horford would fit great there. Like the Knicks get bounced out. Well, Al Horford would fit pretty good in New York. San Antonio sitting down there with Webb and Yama. Wouldn't you love to have a guy like Al Horford in your rotation as well? This is probably like a third of the league given what Al still has left.

and what Al's salary demands are going to be that theoretically would be interested. So you're saying like the mid-level, like the $7 million or even higher? Higher, maybe. $10, $12, I don't know. What did he make, $10 last year? Two years, $20 was his last contract? I could see him in play. Yeah, deep down, you're triggering me now because deep down I am a little worried about this because the team I'm worried about is the Lakers.

That's like an obvious, obvious Al Horford fit where they could just kind of grab him. I mean, there's some other ones, but I don't know. He won a title in Boston. He's beloved in Boston. And it's like, you don't, he doesn't have to chase a ring because he won a ring. Right. And if you're talking about difference between they could pay him two and a half million versus seven, whatever it is, like, you're going to uproot. I don't know. We'll see. But I don't think the team's going to be

I don't know. Let's go through. I'm going to read you everybody in the East and you tell me what teams are definitively better than the Celtics next year. Let's say there are no more trades and they keep Pouser. So we would say Cleveland, yes. Yes. We would say the Knicks, yes. Yes. And Orlando, yes. Love the Orlando trade, yeah. Those three, I think we can both agree have better rosters and a chance for regular season success than the Celtics next year. I would agree, yeah.

Yeah. I think I would agree. All right. So there's four. Then you, you, you all of a sudden I'm in Indiana with no Hal Burton, Giannis with no teammates, um, Miami. I don't even know what they're trying to do. The Hawks might be the biggest threat for the five seat at anybody. We're listing Toronto. Give me a break. Philadelphia. I have no idea how many and B games I'm getting. Um,

I feel like the five seed is wide open in the East, which is more of a reflection of how gutted the East is. Yeah, and I look at Philly, and we'll see what happens on draft night. I think there's a lot of potential moves in play in the next 24 hours for Philadelphia. If Embiid's healthy, they're better than Boston. Atlanta, if Porzingis can give you... Can you just give me an if Embiid's healthy? I'm just saying. What are you doing? I'm giving...

I'm giving them benefit of the doubt here on this one. If Embiid's healthy, they're better than Boston. Sure. Right. Atlanta, if Porzingis gives us 65-plus games, they're better than Boston. So we're kind of in that same range there, where I could see them anywhere from like eight to five. So they're getting Porzingis and Jalen Johnson back. I love Jalen Johnson. I want all the stock on Jalen Johnson. If you and I were the Atlanta conciliaries,

I would be like, fucking go for it, man. You still have a $25 million trade exception that expires on July 7th. Like, go for it. Go get Norman Powell from the Clippers. Like, let's go. Like, go get a real player who can play in a playoff series.

You got Jalen Johnson coming back, so it's almost like you're signing a free agent. Risa Shea is a year older. You have Porzingis basically replacing Capella, but you also have Okongwu. I like their team. I liked their team last year. I felt like if Jalen Johnson didn't get hurt last year, I thought that would have been a really interesting round one team. I think Jalen Johnson, to me, is one of...

And amongst NBA people, he's not underrated, but publicly, he's criminally underrated. Every time I watch that guy play on TV or in person, he is outstanding. And if he's healthy, he's going to be an all-star next year. Yeah, I mean, Porzingis, Johnson, Trey, not a ton of defense with that group, but...

With that $25 million exception, I think going for it is the right play. And I think that's their mindset too. Like the Porzingis trade to me signals that Atlanta is going to try in this conference, which is the right thing to do given what's sitting up at the top. Well, they also have the 13th pick in the draft that they got from Sacramento.

So they still have the possibility of maybe there's one more move where they move backwards and pick up a veteran. I tried to talk myself into Atlanta saying yes to Hauser in the 28th for the number 13th, but

I don't think that's enough, but I love Sam Houser and I actually think that would be a good trade for Atlanta. So maybe consider that one, Atlanta. The market is robust right now for Sam Houser from what I've heard. I mean, he's starting that four-year, $45 million. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he's a 40-plus percent three-point shooter who's been on a championship team who's got a very manageable contract. Like, there's a lot of teams that could use guys like that. And I don't know if Baylor Shireman is...

Sam Hauser 2.0 or can replicate anything he does, but I know he's a lot cheaper. And I think that's going to be the priority for the Celtics with that particular spot in the lineup. I feel like you might get aggregated on Hoopsite now. Mannix.

Hauser trade market, robust. I mean, it's like a hot take though. It feels like a very lukewarm take that the 26 year old elite three point shooter maybe can't guard that many guys, but can make a shot at 40% from three. That's well, and as Priscilla always says, like the sneakiest,

wait, haven't you watched tape? Stop thinking you can challenge him and post up dudes. Cause he's actually like a half decent defender and one-on-one on an Island. He's actually okay. I think the Pistons make a lot of sense for him. And I'm, I'm interested to see what they do because that's, you know, when we talk about the wide open East, if I'm the Pistons,

I'm really looking at, Hey, we might be one move. I would have, I would have kicked the tires hard on Durant. We talked about that the other day on this podcast. Like I just would have, I have Cade who's one of the best 15 guys in the league. I have a young team. Um, I have an identity. Like what can I improve that Tobias Harris spot and go up a level? Um, yeah, from a Celtics standpoint, the Jalen part will be really fun.

Um, the, the Pritchard Simons together as a bat, like the Pritchard Simons, Derek White. I don't know. I'm in on it. I can't believe they're able to pull out those two trades. I thought Porzingis was going to be impossible. Just, I just thought they were going to have to take a giant contract back. Cause he's making 30. Like they needed, they basically needed the nets to be involved somehow. And then the nets were like, Whoa, Terrence man. And another pick. We already have four. All right, cool.

And they did it. Like, what are they doing? Yeah. What do you think the Nets are up to here? Because they're not accruing all these draft picks to just draft guys. Like, that's... When I was at the draft lottery...

talking to people in Brooklyn and people that talk to Brooklyn, the most deflated team not to move up was the Brooklyn Nets because the Brooklyn Nets believe that a top four pick was going to put them in play for one of the bigger names out there. Obviously Giannis was at the very top of their list. No idea if Giannis, what's going to happen or how that's going to play out the next few weeks. But all I know is that the Nets acquiring one sixth of,

Thursday's draft is not so they can draft five guys. Like that's just not, that's not what Sean Marks is looking to do here. I'm very curious to see what the next 24 hours look like for Brooklyn. If they, if they have something else in mind or another deal in mind to, to use these picks for. Well, we think San Antonio is staying at two with Harper. Yeah. I think that's locked in Philly. I'm prepared for literally anything. You could give me any scenario and I would sign up for it. So if you told me Daryl feels like,

I have, my model says we should take Ace Bailey. We don't even need to take it, take him at three. He's going to be there at seven. We'll trade back with Brooklyn or trade back to eight. He's still going to be there at eight and we'll pick up all these other picks and then I'll do weird Daryl stuff with them. You can talk me into that. Um, you could talk me into anything with Charlotte because I don't think I throw something about Charlotte. So Charlotte,

So this Ace Bailey thing is wild. Like, Ace Bailey kind of being navigated by an agent that doesn't have a ton of experience, not working out for anybody. Like...

I think my theory on this, on Ace Bailey, is that right or wrong, he or his team believe there's a team out there that he wants to go to that is going to trade up with Charlotte. Like, he's not working out for Philadelphia. There's got to be a reason for that. He's not going to Utah, right?

I don't think he wants to go to Charlotte. I think that Ace Bailey thinks that there's a team that's going to leap up, get that Charlotte pick, and he wants to play there. That's my theory on Ace Bailey. You mean a team like the Brooklyn Nets? Maybe. Maybe. So Charlotte moves back four spots. They pick up a bunch of extra assets. Which they need more than that fourth pick, I would argue. Right. Yeah, because especially if...

If Edgecombe goes third, which I think is the guy Charlotte wants, trying to decode all the what's bullshit, but what's actually real. And it really does seem like that's the guy they want. And maybe they're like, fuck it, then we'll move back. For Brooklyn, I feel like Ace Bailey is going to drop to eight and I wouldn't trade up to get him because I think

I think when you put the stink out like that, we saw it work with SAR last year. Like SAR did this to Atlanta. It's like, nope, not even going. If you take me buyer beware, this does work. When you have a pick that high and you have, usually if you're picking that high, your team's probably a mess to begin with. Right. And it's like, oh, so who'd you take with this prime lottery pick? We took the guy who literally wouldn't fly to come pick.

work out with us, who refuses to take our calls and won't send us his medical records until the league mandated that he had to. That's our first pick. High fives, everybody. Like nobody wants to do that. So this actually works. I think it's, it's smart. But on the other hand, it's possible that Ace Bailey is just a train wreck. The stuff of the representation is pretty alarming. Like there's, and there's a lot of stories that have been

I think being passed around and people aren't really talking about them publicly, but there's just, it just seems like a train wreck. It's not like this is being, it's not like this is being orchestrated by like a Bill Duffy or Rich Paul. I'm doing the chessboard here. It doesn't feel like chessboard type stuff. Checkers. What board game would you do?

Chutes and ladders? I don't know. Like, whatever. I mean, it just feels very, very, very uneasy. The only thing I can think of, though, is that somebody's trying to get to four. And they like the team that's trying to get to four that goes against them. I think if he's at eight, Brooklyn's going to take him. Like, all the stuff that's going on

with Ace Bailey, he's a shot maker. Like, I don't know if he flames out. He doesn't have the mindset for it or the complete skill set to become a great player, but that guy can get you a bucket. Like that's why those weird Durant comparisons, I can kind of see it. I can kind of see shades of it. And if he's sitting there at eight, I think Brooklyn's going to take him. I also don't think he gets past Washington. I think Washington would take a flyer on a guy like that.

with a high upside at number six. So I think if at four is when this, well, three, it's going to get interesting because I don't know what Philadelphia is going to do either. But I think at four, it gets real interesting with respect to Ace Bailey. If Washington doesn't take them at six, I'm going to be disappointed. Yeah. I don't know if it's the right pick for them. And it seems like the kind of guy they've,

the type of, of, of kind of polarizing part of they've had in the past where it's usually like, Oh man, that didn't work out. Um, Brooklyn makes the most sense if that's his end game. But, uh, I think this is a great draft. I've really enjoyed it. I've enjoyed doing the research for it. I think it's really unpredictable. You have Cooper at the top. It's so funny. Like he goes and works out for Dallas and, and then the stories are going Cooper flag.

He knocked everyone's socks off. People were blown away. It's like, we can stop doing that with the Cooper flag workouts. We get it. He blows everyone away. He's amazing. He's fucking, you know, juggling three balls, beating everybody in drills. Like we get it. He's amazing. Um, and then two Harper is locked in, but then we get the three and it's like, I'm prepared for anything. Trade backs.

I did. There's three guys. I wouldn't be surprised if they took, I wouldn't be surprised if, if Daryl took ACE. I know you wouldn't either. If he was just like, yeah, ACE has the highest upside. I think he'd be a superstar edge comb. We think he's Dwayne Wade. He just needs to figure out how to finish a layup. Canipple perfect for the team we have. We think Embiid's going to play 70 games. He fits in, he does this, this, and this. It's a, it's an awesome draft. Let's take a quick break and I have some more, uh, some more trade stuff to throw at you.

This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer is here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do I mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well-groomed lawn delivered

but you can get chicken Parmesan delivered. I love chicken Parmesan. A day in the sun? No. A bottle of rum? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. So if you were the Atlanta Hawks, are you building this around Trey Young? You feel good about that? I don't feel good about it. Um,

I don't think that Trey Young can be the number one guy on a championship team. I do think Trey Young as the number one guy in a conference that stinks can be the number one guy on an Eastern Conference championship team. I think they're in play next year. So I think that's the mindset that Atlanta probably has going into this season because it's not... Look, if they want to blow this whole thing up,

they can do it next summer you know porzingis is coming off the books yeah young will have one less year left in his contract you still have jalen johnson to build around long term like this is kind of the perfect year to sort of go for it see what you can get with that 25 million dollar trade exception see if there's some guy that fits you know either in the backcourt alongside trey four spot i don't know wherever they think is the right fit and go for it this year um and

And if it doesn't work, screw it. Then next year, there'll be a market for Trey Young next year. Somebody's going to want to get him. I mean, nobody wants to sign with Washington. Maybe they take him on. They absorb his contract into their books. There's a lot of things you can do if you're Atlanta beyond this season. No matter what, they're not going to win a title. I think we both can agree on that with this group. After Indiana, I'm not willing to agree on anything. But Indiana won 15 playoff games. I know. Indiana plays with just a...

I don't know. If you get guys around Trey Young that are tough like that, Neesmith, Siakam, Nembhard, I don't see those guys in Atlanta. I don't see them. Look at their depth chart. I don't see a ton of those guys. But I think in this landscape, I mean...

you can do it. You can make a run with this group. But if you can, great. Maybe you see like, hey, we're just one piece away and then we'll add that guy in the offseason. Or you go into next summer and you blow the whole damn thing up. You trade Trae Young and you rebuild around a really good player, an all-star in Jalen Johnson. I think it's all upside for the Hawks. We see it the same way. I think this is the official Trae Young audition year. What do you got? Here we put a bunch of

guys with blink who can, who can protect you on defense. We have a little pick and pop threat now with Porzingis. We also have a real center who can protect the rim. Um, I don't know what they're going to do with 13th pick and that trade exception, but we assume there's one more really good guy coming. And it's like, let's see, we've, we've created the type of team. I think what they have a chance to do is what we watched Indiana do with Halliburton where, um,

They built a roster around a guy's specific skill set. In Trey's case, they can protect him on defense and they're surrounding him with shooters and length, which is kind of what you'd have to do. And at Indiana, I'm still... You didn't go to Game 7, did you? I did, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm still reeling from...

Just that whole thing. And then also to come that close to winning a title, to have the first five minutes the way it went, and then to realize, much like Celtic fans last month, where it's like, not only did we just get knocked out of the playoffs, but next year is now gone too. It was just so much. I'm still digesting it. I can't even imagine what it was like to be there. I think that Oklahoma City has emerged as a top three crowd recently.

in the NBA. I think Boston's better. I think New York's better, but I think Oklahoma City's right there. You make an argument for somebody else, fine, but I think Oklahoma City is right there in that three spot. I've never experienced a crowd that amped up just cut it, go completely silent the way that it did. Everybody in that moment knew exactly what happened based on how he moved, how he responded. I mean, players from both sides, crowd, media, everybody knew. I've never seen...

a, a reaction quite like that. When you had a crowd amped up to an 11, just going nuts and then have that happen and everything just go completely silent. It was, it was surreal, man, being there and seeing him go down like that. And then his reaction, banging his hand on the floor. And then you watch them, the replay on the monitor, and you could see the calf buckles, you know, right away, exactly what it is. That was tough. That was real tough to watch in real time.

Yeah, I was thinking about it because we podcasted after that night and I was thinking after about some stuff I wish I had thought of when we were doing it live because I was still like kind of gathering. It was just so incredible of a basketball situation and a life situation. It was hard to wrap your head around. I was thinking about, I think it was my first year I was writing for ESPN or the second year. So it was maybe 2002 playoffs when Dirk got hurt.

And everybody was like, he's got to suck it. He was hurt in the playoffs. I think it was against Sacramento. And it was so long ago. I can't remember. But he was hurt and Cuban didn't want to bring him back in. He wanted him to play hurt. And his whole thing was like, Dirk's going to be our guy for a long time. It's not worth it to play him in this playoff series. And I remember writing...

I think I wrote in my piece, like, that's crazy. If you have a chance for the title, you have to go. And as I've gotten older, I feel completely differently about it. Like, you know, obviously he was hurt. Obviously they shot him up so he could play. Right. And then you go out and you tell the, you tell the person, Hey man, you know, be careful. Don't you're, you're injured.

Just be careful how you do this. But what happens? You hit a couple of threes, the adrenaline's rising, you know, he's going in a timeout and you just kind of forget you're hurt, but he was hurt. And then he made it worse. And now they really screwed up their team. And I don't know, it's just that Cuban Dirk decision. I was, I was thinking about that, about, do you play him? Do you, if you play him, are you more careful? Like, and Halliburton's like, I have no regrets. It was game seven. We had a chance to win the title, but

I don't know. Something still doesn't sit right with it, with me. I agree. It's like that old parable where the guy drowns and he blames God for not saving him. It's like we have a lot of evidence over the last five years that show that these types of calf injuries lead to a catastrophic injury like an Achilles tear. The Durant situation. I think Dame's injury...

was kind of some of that him coming back from you know deep vein thrombosis and being thrust right back into a high pressure high octane situation like we've got the evidence it's out there it's you just point to it and say this is the kind of stuff that not only can happen but but does happen at a frequently alarming wait wait rate and i don't know what you tell like

Rick Carlisle, you know, I was at all those games and all the pregame stuff and Rick Carlisle, every single pregame was like, we're watching him, we're watching him, we're watching him. So obviously they're probably, and even Halliburton, I think after game five, maybe like somebody asked him, like, have you been told that there's not a high risk of injuries? Like, no, I've,

I have not been told that he knew that something was possible, you know, there, but I don't know how you tell a guy in game seven of the NBA finals, whether or not he made three of the first five shots that he took three threes. I don't know how you tell a guy going in, like go at 80%. Like it's impossible to tell a guy. Yeah. Just be careful. Be careful. Be careful. You kind of can't do that because he was careful in game six. He wasn't that good. Unless you're going to, you know, camp him out in the corner.

and have him be a decoy, then this was always a potential situation. Maybe that's what they should have done. I mean, they kind of did that. They kind of did that for, what was it? Game six, for a lot of game six. Yeah. I think it was. He was kind of hanging on the perimeter, just lingering around, uh,

yeah, maybe they should have gone that route, but like, you're never going to be able to tell a guy of that caliber, like, Hey man, this could happen. Don't push off as hard. Don't break to the basket. If you see an opening, like it's too hard to have a guy compartmentalize. I'm still wrapping my head around it. I, I,

But who do you blame? It sounds like I don't blame anybody because it's obviously his choice. He wants to play. It's no different than... We both love boxing and we love UFC and people make decisions with their bodies and their heads and we watch it over and over again. And you can't be like, you dummy, you shouldn't have played. Obviously, he wanted to play. It was super risky. But I've never... I mean, to come that close, when you think of the two sliding doors of...

This guy was on pace to be the hero of that game. And then in, at the seven, six minute mark, whenever it was all of a sudden he's done for a year. Like I, I've never seen anything like that. And the Tatum thing was horrible when that happened. I mean, that was one of the more traumatic, we had two of the most traumatic NBA injuries we've ever had in the span of a month. And nobody's been able to explain this Achilles thing. I was texting my doc about it.

And I was like, nobody had these, these were old guys injuries. These are injuries. Like my uncle Bob started playing pickleball and he blew out his Achilles. Like these don't happen to people in their primes. And we were saying, I was like, when, when you were playing, I was saying this to doc, like, you know, you just play pickup in the summer. Right.

You weren't doing these like 365 days a year, all this training and practicing Eurosteps and footwork. And maybe it's too much. Like maybe they really have to reevaluate all the stuff they're doing. Doc was saying, we just played pickup every day on concrete, 100 degree weather, and then our knees went. So in the old days, the knees went. And now it feels like it's the below the knees is starting to go. And I don't think it's a coincidence that two of the best guys ever

who still were arrow pointing up for their careers, had this injury that nobody had before recently. Is there... So I've texted a few medical people, you know, team trainers and whatnot for theory. It's all theory at this point. But is there anything to the idea that maybe now more than ever, these guys are just basketball players? Like they're not... The specialists. Yeah, you grow up, you know,

A lot of guys you cover back in the day, they were football players. They were, you know, hockey players. If they grew up in the Northeast, like they were playing other sports. Nowadays, it's straight basketball. Like Cooper Flagg is actually an example. I spent the better part of a couple of weeks around him. Did he blow you away? No.

Him personally, no. You know who's, I mean, the greatest, like he was on the cover of the magazine, the greatest Cooper Flagg supporter is Scal. Like he's out of his mind in support of this guy. He thinks he's like LeBron. Like this is, you know. He might have to settle down a tad, but. You do, you put together your Mount Rushmore tomorrow, like day one of the season, Scal's going to have Cooper Flagg on the top of that, on that Mount Rushmore. But he's like, to this point, like he grew up, you know, in,

first grade, second grade. He was a great football player. You know, this is why they consider a prodigy. Graded everything. Football, played soccer, played baseball, but just stopped after, I think, second or third grade, whenever it was, and then just focused entirely on basketball. That's what a lot of these guys, Jason Tatum, when he got to a young age, you know, got with Drew Hanlon when he was young and started working on skills, just this. I wonder if there's anything to the singular focus on the game where you're not kind of

you know, doing other things that might protect your, your, your body from these types of, of injuries. Again, it's all theoretical, but this kind of came up with a couple of, of training people that, that,

that I've talked to, but it's worth looking into more if you're the NBA. Like having, having Kobe, Terry's Achilles in the back end of his career is one thing having, you know, an alpha, an MVP candidate like Tatum, the star of the post season, like Halliburton, like this is something that, that they need to look at. Yeah. Kobe, who is playing those 48 minute games during that stretch. Right. And he was at the end of his career and he pushed it too far and it made sense. It doesn't, these, the equipment's too good.

The training stuff's too good. The medicines, everything's too good for, to have this injury. I don't really fully understand it. And I also don't understand why it's not happening in other sports, right? Like it's not happening in tennis, you know, it's not, I think Tiger Torres Akil is in golf, but it's just,

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The roadie 15 is perfect. It even fits wine bottles. Find your cooler and gear up for summer with Yeti hard coolers. What prayers? So you're, you're obviously texting a million people and we're all sifting through the same bullshit, not knowing what's real and not real. And then anytime a trade happens, it's like, that's a trade. Like I thought Drew was going to Dallas or Phoenix. I really did. And I would have bet on Dallas. I would have bet

I thought Dallas was like minus 200 for a Drew home. I thought it was going to be two pieces. One gets rerouted to Brooklyn or Atlanta, wherever, and their trade exception, Boston keeps the other piece and Dallas gets Drew. Portland comes and then it's like, oh yeah, they've loved him the whole time. It's like, really? I didn't hear that once. Is there a player that you're hearing floated around a name that has surprised you?

As we are now 24 hours away from the draft. Is there somebody who are like, Whoa, that guy. I don't know if it's a, well, New Orleans is very much open for business that Zion, not particularly, but they're a team that is determined to shake things up. Like could Herb Jones be available in New Orleans? I mean, that's a small name, but, uh, I think that's something interesting. Uh,

Again, I don't know what Philadelphia is going to do here. Do they just sit on that draft pick and take it? Do they try to package it? Is Paul George in play? I've heard some of that over the last 24 hours or so that they could be looking to... To trade back with Paul George. Yeah, to do something there.

Yeah, those the Philly stuff is what I've been most looking at. I think the Charlotte thing is the next one. I think Charlotte is very open for business at number four to move down. And I think there's a team that's going to be in play that tries to move up and and take take that Charlotte spot. I'm intrigued by the Clippers who don't seem like they have a lot going on, but also don't seem to be super happy with their roster just

like what, where's the evidence they're going to be better this year than, or this coming year than they were. And I thought they were right there with some of these other teams, but I also think they're going to be a year older next year. Um, I I'm just, they've been quiet, which makes me suspicious. And then the team I cannot figure out for the life of me is Miami. Cause I've heard they didn't offer anything for Durant. If you talk to some different like NBA team people, um,

They're like, we heard the Miami thing was close to being done and something happened. I don't know what to believe anymore. And I don't know what Miami's up to. And usually they're star hunting right around now. And they've been quiet too. And I don't know, are they going to zag and go the other way? I don't know. The Miami part of it, from what I heard after the deal got done, was Khalil Ware was off the table. And really the only thing that was on the table was

Wiggins, some contract filler, a little bit of draft capital, nothing at all substantial. Yeah, what the fuck? That's like nothing, which means they didn't really want him. But Bill, I don't know who, besides Houston, who really wanted him this offseason? I think the Clippers, you mentioned them. I think they were interested. They just don't have anything to really offer that Phoenix might be looking for. San Antonio was clear. There was some...

I don't know if the Harden tires were kicked. Oh, no. No. That wouldn't be... That would be bad. It didn't work. But I'll put it this way. I don't think Harden's Game 7 went over great. You think? Yeah.

I don't think it went over great with literally anybody on the, on the Clippers. So, and, but I also don't think there's a market for him, but if we were talking about like most shocking name that you could see getting traded in the next week, that isn't actually shocking. He would be on my list. I just don't know who would be trading for him. I mean, there was no market for him.

last off season and the Clippers gave him a deal that he never would have gotten anywhere else. Like that was, I never understood that deal at the time. I don't think the Clippers want to pay Norman Powell long-term either. Had a great year last year, but has he plateaued as a player? Is that going to be a, if they give him money, is that going to be a contract they're trying to get off of in two years? I think they, they have that mindset to just the Durant stuff. Like to,

I've been riding Houston since last February because I knew from being around the Rockets how much E-May liked him and how much Durant respected E-May from the Brooklyn days and the USA basketball days and how well the fit worked. I went down there in February, March to do something on Ahmed. And even then, Raphael Stone was on and off the record. He was like, we're not doing anything. We're trying to see what this...

looks like in the playoffs. And they got their look. They got their look. Jalen Green's not the guy. Jalen Green is never going to be the guy. So now they go out and maybe it's not a round peg, round hole type of fit in the age of Durant. But I believe that Kevin Durant

is still capable of being like one of the best scores in the NBA for 65 plus games in a season. And I think given what I saw from that team in the playoffs last year, yeah, that's exactly who they need. Like, especially in the playoffs themselves, a hundred percent. That's what you replace. You replace Kevin Durant, healthy Kevin Durant with you swap out Jalen green. They beat golden state in the first round. Like,

I don't know what the ceiling is after that, but they beat Golden State in the first round. I think the Rockets who are going to get real organic growth from their young guys next year, starting with Thompson, who I think is an absolute monster waiting to break out. I think they're now in play to win the Western Conference. And if I was looking at the biggest threats to Oklahoma City next year, without knowing exactly what Denver is going to look like, I would say Houston's at the top of that list.

We agree. And I also, what's so interesting about that trade, I wish I had said this Sunday when we talked about it. It feels like they still have a trade left. They were able to keep enough assets to do another move. Like, I don't think the Celtics are trading Jalen and I hope they don't. But if they did trade Jalen, weirdly Houston is still the best home for him. They'd have to put the Van Vliet thing in it to make it work. And I think Tari Eason would have to be in it. But with all the picks they have,

There's a move now, a little reminiscent, we've seen this in years, like the 07 to 08 Celtics was the best example of like, you do this one move and then that opens the door for the second move makes more sense, right? Do the Ray Allen trade. Now KG trade makes more sense than it did if it was just going to be KG and Paul. I just, I can't count out Jalen and Houston, even though I don't want Boston to trade Jalen, I don't think they're going to. I don't know that Houston has enough to

get Boston's attention there. Like the Van Vliet contract and what else? Like you want to take on the Suns picks in 27, 29? I mean, I don't know how Jalen's got to be worth more than that. It would basically be all the picks and Eason and Van Vliet's contract. You're right. It probably isn't enough, but it's enough for somebody and it keeps them in the Giannis area too in January, February if that goes bad.

I thought San Antonio was the most... And I said this a couple of weeks ago. I thought San Antonio was the most interesting team for Jalen if they decided to go that direction. And still are. Still are. But I think the Spurs may be just keeping their powder dry in case the Giannis thing just bursts and they can make a play there. But if that's not on the table, they can very easily put together a package that makes a lot of sense for both sides. To bring it full circle to Boston, though, I like...

that it sure seems like they're not jettisoning Jalen here. Like that, that I think was a thought, you know, as they were trying to figure out what to do with this team moving forward. But I liked that they're not,

dumping this guy because it's hard to get two guys like Tatum and Brown. Like it's hard to get two guys that you know can win together on a championship level. And I like that they're keeping him intact, keeping him there and presumably going to keep him as part of a two or three person core that they're going to build around in the summer of 2026. I just think that's the right move for them to make. And look, teams were calling about Jalen.

several of them calling to see the availability. It was a hot market for him in white. There's no question. No question. But the Celtics were pretty firm that, you know, yeah, next year may suck for them. You know, it may even be a lottery year, which I don't think would disappoint too many people given that they have their pick. It may be bad. But 2026, we're back. Like, you know,

Y'all must have forgot with us in the fall of 2026 when Tatum comes back from that injury. That to me is what their mindset is. You know who's not tanking? Joe Mazzulla, who's this absolute psycho. Oh, isn't this fascinating? I'm glad you brought that up. This would be an absolute psychology experiment watching him tank.

intentionally lose games and play lineups that would, there's just no way. I don't see it. That's why I think that, I think it's more likely they win 48 to 50 games than 32 to 35 games. But it may be inescapable that they're, they're not,

that good that there may be a 500 type of team i'm fascinated to see how joe mizzoula handles mediocrity like does he like start plucking his eyebrows like after like a three-game losing streak no they're gonna put him on like meds i think he's gonna have to be sedated like when like like with uh with when you have little kids and you you put them on an airplane and you just have to make sure like that yeah hey will you take this benadryl i need you i need a

I need to knock you out for a second. I don't think he'll be able to handle it. I mean, he takes losses so hard. We saw that.

during the last couple of seasons. He might have taken a leave of absence. Maybe he just leaves the team in January. It's like Joe's going to go learn a next level of Muay Thai in Thailand for the next four months and we'll bring him back in June. Just walking around challenging guys to Muay Thai fights across Europe and Africa. Like I could see that. I could see that. It will be interesting to see how he deals with it because this will be new. Can we say one thing on Jalen Brown? Yeah.

I think it'd be a huge mistake to trade him unless it was like for 200 cents in the dollar. And especially after like what the Red Sox did, not to compare the same situation with Mookie, because that was different. They just didn't want to pay him and they're fucking assholes. Um,

I just, I want to see Brown and Tatum together. And I think Jalen's like really important in the city. Like he really gives a shit about the right things. And I don't think you can lose guys like that if you don't have to. Like nobody expects them to win the title next year. The salaries are going to be nuts, but they're going to be able to reset this whole apron thing and then make another three-year run. And I just don't see it. I was actually looking at the OKC trying to figure out when they get screwed because this is one of the legacies of this Celtics run.

And then you think like, okay, see, oh, they're so positioned. And they are in a lot of ways, right? They're young. They have draft picks. They have flexibility. But then they really don't. When we get to the 27-28 season, I was trying to map out if they give Chet and Jalen Williams the contract extensions, which would be five for 247, right? And nobody takes less anymore. Chet's like, I want to help the team. I'll do five for 200. He's going to take the 247.

So that would kick in in the 26, 27 season. And Shay's super max really kicks in for the 27, 28 season. All of a sudden he'd be making 65.5 million a year and Chet and J Dub would, uh, would be making 46 and 46. So just for those three guys, uh,

you're looking at $158 million for three guys. And the second apron for that year would be around 230. Yeah, cap will go up. Yeah, those numbers. I was trying to factor in the cap because the cap goes up 10% max every year and the apron's tied to that. So they'd have about 70 million left for the rest of their roster after those three guys. And the point is, the NBA has created this league now where even if you do everything correctly, you make all the right trades, all the right draft picks, you just fucking nail every step.

you're still fucked like three years later. And the Celtics are the latest example. We're seeing Denver now that they can't even build around. Yeah. I want to talk about that in a second. Um, but I just think when I wish I had said this on Sunday night, when we talk about like, Oh, they're going to own the rest of the decade. It's like,

I think we're talking three, four-year windows for anybody because it's too hard after that. Yeah. Look, they're more equipped than any team in the last, what, five, six years to have sustained success. I mean, Milwaukee...

They didn't have it in part because they went all in to get a guy like Holiday and cost themselves some picks. And they traded Drew assets too. Yeah. They missed on these picks though. That's a big part of it too. The guys they drafted can't play. Denver.

kind of the same thing, not as far as giving away draft capital, but when the veterans got too expensive for that team and maybe they should have spent a little more money, especially on a guy like KCP, um, their young players were not ready to step in and, and play. Well, and then they did the Zeke Nagy extension. They extended Porter to the point that he's untradeable making 40 million a year. Like that felt, it was like a Walmart deal there. That was a, that was a bad deal for, that was a bad one. Um,

Oklahoma City to me, though, is a little bit different. And you know this. But like the way that the contracts are set up over the next three years help them navigate the books. And I'm talking about the team options. Like there are a lot of team options. You look at those books, Bill. That doesn't happen in today's NBA. Yeah, like Hardenstein could be gone in a year. Hardenstein's got a team option next year.

next summer. Isaiah Joe, I think, has a team option the year after that. Lou Dort... Lou Dort does as well. Another one there. Like, you can either let these guys go and shave that money off your books and get underneath one of those aprons, or you can convince someone like Hartenstein to, you know...

take a little bit less to stick around and be part of maybe something he likes being a part of. Dort, I think might be different. I think there's going to be a big market for Dort next summer if he's a free agent. I think he's a great player, but you've got Case and Wallace looking to step in. And look, even next year, like I did a little, I did a little reporting bill around young Nikola Topic during the finals. A lot of Oklahoma City excitement about Nikola Topic. A

A lot of guys that have been scrimmaging with him. Kenrich Williams talked to me for a while about him. Dagnall, big fan of Nikola Topic. It's not an obvious path, but if they can just get these guys to hit, if they can get Topic to become part of their top eight or nine as early as next season, if they can get Cason Wallace to be good enough to step in and replace

Lou Dort down the line. If they can hit on one or two of these next, what is it, seven picks right now in the next four years of the draft, they can just hit on these guys and

They got a chance here to do what all those other teams we just mentioned have not done. So I'm a little more optimistic. Who's Mondang? Yes, that's another guy that, you know, they have guys. They have guys that, you know, they're not going to step into your top three or four, but they don't need them to do that. They need guys between four and eight to be consistent. I think they've got more potential than any team in the last five, six years to have that.

We 100% agree. If any team is going to pull it off. Kind of the way I'm says on your show, I want all the real estate on Topa Child. I'm in too. I'll go on Redfin right after. Look it up. You get a condo. So I agree with everything you just said. I'm talking three years from now. Here's, here's the counter. And did you, I didn't, you didn't go to Indiana, right? For three and four. I did. Yeah. Oh, I didn't somehow. I didn't see you. Yeah. Um,

Dort and Caruso won game four and that was the game they needed to win this series. And the problem with all of this is you still need guys like that. So it's like, oh yeah, Wallace will praise Lou Dort. It's like, really? Lou Dort was fucking awesome in that game four. And so was Caruso. And it's like,

And you think about like the Celtics in 24, like drew holiday in the Indiana series, like some of the stuff he was doing, the poor Zingas, the boost he was, you just lose that. And the series can tilt in the wrong way. And I honestly think if Indy wins game four, that series is done in six. I really believe it. I think Indy would have finished the series. I think,

There was this moment in time in that second half where they had the series and they just couldn't close it. So we'll see if they can do it. They have to keep hitting on the topic types of like whoever, like they had, they take, like they can keep replenishing that door Caruso spot. Maybe. What did you think of the Cronky thing today? That I got a lot of texts about that one today. Cronky just,

He's like, yeah, we basically opened the door for, we might have to trade Jokic if he doesn't want to sign an extension. It was the most needless media story I've ever seen, which makes it think, makes me think it was intentional. I just don't think you make a mistake like that in a press conference when all of these guys are trained to just measure your words,

say things carefully. I don't think it was an accident. I really don't. I haven't, I've read the quote. I haven't watched the quote and I always want to watch it first just to make sure to understand fully the context, but the right answer for any question about Nikola Jokic is we're building around him forever. We want a statue of him in front of the building. That's it. He's never playing anywhere else. He's our guy.

The word trade should never wind up in the same three sentences, within three sentences of Nikola Jokic. The way he framed it was like, it made me think, and there's always been this stuff floating around, who knows if it's true, but it made me wonder if they think he wants to be there for the rest of his career or not. There was something weird about the way he said it.

that made me think they're nervous that if anybody's just going to be like, I'll see you guys later. I'm going to go over here now. Like who knows, who knows what that dude, um, I don't know. I thought I just thought it was a notable moment. Sometimes in the NBA, there'll be these little press conference moments or something said in a locker room or just some sort of Ted bit where you go, huh, that kind of came out of nowhere. What did that mean? So I'm just, I'm noting it. Don't you think that they think that like Jokic to me, uh,

is more likely to just decide at the end of his next contract that he's not going to play anymore. Like, I'm just going to go back to Serbia and race horses and I've made enough money and I don't want to train like this anymore. Like that, that to me, that's always been like something you should be, people should be wary about with Jokic. Like everybody says, like, he's got the kind of game that could, that's going to age really well. And it probably will.

But I don't see him at like age 39, like pulling like an Arvidas Sabonis. Like I don't see him. I just don't see him playing until the wheels come off. I think he's got a clock in his head for exactly how long he wants to play. But regardless. So I've heard this theory that he's really likely. This was going around like a year ago. If anyone's likely to just be like, I'll see you guys later. Thanks for everything. It's him.

I don't believe it. That dude's too competitive. And you, you've been to some of these playoff games when he's really locked in and he's a maniac. I don't think you're going to be like, all right, I'm just going to play in a shitty league now. I think that guy wants to, you know, that what he did against OKC with the supporting cast he had, especially as we saw what happened with this OKC team.

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earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases made with it. Say it with me. The Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo. Learn more at wellsfargo.com forward slash active cash. Terms apply. What else? Did we have anything else we need to hit before we go? I mean, I want to talk boxing at the tail end, but any other NBA storylines you're excited about or no?

I think that's, yeah, that's, here's what I want to throw at you. The NBA storyline that might not be applicable now, but could be a year from now, because I think this is the potential biggest free agent that could be out there. Sam Presti in Oklahoma City. Like, we're going to get

two expansion teams probably the next three years. I think the NBA is going to step on the gas with the expansion now that the Lakers sold for $10 billion. You know who's roadblocking them right now? James Dolan. Yeah. He's got a little cabal of anti-expansion owners that he's trying to just, just to, uh,

Because he doesn't want to. He doesn't want to share the meteorites. But James Dolan doesn't want to share anything. He votes no at every single Board of Governors meeting. Yes, he does. Go back and look at some of these meetings. Like how many of them are 29 to 1? Like he sends his consigliere in because he doesn't really go to vote. I think he has a couple of people this time, though.

I don't want expansion. Yeah, I think this expansion thing is a little more complicated than people are giving it credit for. It might be, but it's not enough. How many do you need to expand? Is it two-thirds? I thought it was three-fourths, but it's somewhere in there. Either way, I don't think that Dolan has enough to block. As many as that may be out there that quietly don't want it, I think there's a lot that very publicly do that. Can you imagine people are like, yeah, I'm in the Dolan block.

Dolan's leading the way. I'm on his side with it. Can you imagine aligning with that? I'm taking the expansion fee. Anyway. But on the expansion side, let's just assume Vegas and Seattle, everybody believes that's how it's going to play out. If you're the new Sonics, what's Sam Presti worth to you? Piece of the team. Piece of the team. 2% of the team. 1%, whatever. Same thing with the Vegas gambler, whatever the hell they're going to be called.

uh, worth the exact same today. I think like Seattle is better though, because that's the, we lost this guy to Oklahoma city. Now we brought him back to be our architect. He was 29 when he came here, he's 49 when he's coming back and he's going to build this team the way, you know, it's, it's prophecy fulfilled, all that stuff. Um, I don't know that Sam is looking to leave Oklahoma, but he's been there a very long time. And, um,

not only won them a championship, which is the priority, but he set them up and presumably a Rob Hennigan who would replace him, who I

I haven't been seen much in the last 10 years, but his, his, his Lieutenant there, he's got it set up. So there's a, a Ascension there. And look, I've been saying at the time, and I know you knew it too. Like Sam, when, when Boston was open before Brad Stevens got it, like Sam was interested, Sam was interested in that job. But the funny thing was Boston really wasn't open. I mean, that was one of the things is like, we went from Danny to Brad. They had a Brad coaching situation and a big contract for him. They had Danny ready to, and it just,

I don't think Presti, did he ever get to throw his hat in the ring? I don't think he did. But externally, nobody, I don't think externally people knew it was going to be that clean at Ascension. I think people on the outside thought there might be, it might be an open job. And I think when it was thought that way, there was some, I think there was interest. Background, Presti, Massachusetts, went to Emerson, like dream was to work for the Celtics and just never happened.

Still hangs out in New England in the summertime with his family. Zillow does all that. I'm just saying, he wouldn't have any reason to feel bad about leaving Oklahoma City. He helped win them a championship and he built a winner that can be there sustainable for the next three or four years. The chance to do something like build a team from scratch for a guy like Sam Presti who has built two...

A title contender back in 2012 with the peak of the Durant-Harden-Westbrook years. And a title winner that may have won multiple championships by the time his, quote, free agency comes up. I just think that's something to watch. I think that whatever two teams get the expansion rights, I think he is going to be someone that's on their radar. And I don't think there's any price probably too high for getting a guy like Sam Presti to run your team.

Mannix, he'd done it again. It's a great call. He's accomplished his job. He won the action movie. He saved everybody in the burning building. Now, if he leaves, you couldn't be mad about it. There's also like if he left, like I don't think Spain is going to be a couple of years from now. That's right around the time. Maybe you'd want to get away from this OKC thing. But he had an incredible run. If I'm Seattle, I guess the precedence would be like Pat Riley in Miami 30 years ago.

And they brought him in. He got a little taste of the team and the whole thing. All right. Well, we'll see what happens in the draft. Let's do boxing really quick, though. Casual boxing fan Bill is here. Love it. Big fight, Bill. Big fight, Bill, who didn't even know that you were announcing one of the Paul brothers this weekend in Anaheim. But who's he? It's Jake Paul. Who's he fighting this weekend? He is fighting Julio Cesar Chavez Jr., who who

who a lifetime ago was the middleweight champion of the world, has fallen on some hard times as of late, young Chavez Jr., has had some documented drug and alcohol problems. He actually lost to Anderson Silva in a boxing match, which was not a good look a couple of years ago. But he's got a big name and he's got a decent following.

And there's a lot of Mexicans on the undercard. So this is going to be a interesting arena for Jake Paul on Saturday. Okay. What's our big fight of this summer? What are we looking forward to? Um,

Usyk Dubois too is the most interesting right now Dubois knocked out by Usyk 2023 like almost it'll be almost to the day of the month when he got knocked out by Usyk and he's back in with him but Dubois has changed a lot over the last two years I mean he has gotten like a heart and confidence transplant

He gets with a new trainer in Don Charles, who's a very, very vocal guy. And as much about motivation, kind of Mickey-esque, as he is about tactics. And he's helped him put together a run that includes Jarrell Miller, Filip Pergovic, and everybody saw the Anthony Joshua knockout. That was the crowning achievement and the title-winning win for Dubois. Now he gets another crack at Usyk, who...

Just continues to be an all-time great. Doesn't show any signs of slowing down. But I think, you know, if this fight was made a year, year and a half ago, it wouldn't have interested me at all. The fact that it's happening now after the AJ win, I think it's really interesting. There'll be like 80,000 fans in Wembley Stadium for that fight. And I think it's an interesting fight now that Dubois has been on this run.

I can't wait because nothing is more fun than throwing Usyk in a parlay with other sports. And he's just the most reliable leg every time. Just keep betting on him until he loses. I'm already, I'm already so in the positive on Usyk fights. Like it's everything's gravy from this point on, but I'm going to keep throwing them in there. And he also Deontay Wilder's back bill on Friday in Kansas places. He is, he has come back and he's looking to make one more run at 39 years old.

Ready to go. Here's a good question for you that I guarantee your podcast partner, Sergio Mora, wouldn't set you up with an alley-oop like this. Who has a chance to be boxing's Caitlin Clark? The out-of-nowhere person that would get everybody excited about. The casual fans. Is there anybody? Because I've given up on Bacoli. I sold my stock at a loss. That's a good idea. Boxing's Caitlin Clark.

Just that, the out of nowhere, somebody that could kind of train, even somebody who could be like as big as Oscar was or Canelo was in the early years. It's hard to...

Like I thought Ryan Garcia could have been that guy two years ago. That's, that's out the door. That stock is done. That stock's gone. That stock is sold. And the problem with being able to predict that is that the amateur ranks are garbage. Like nobody comes out of the Olympics anymore. Like Oscar used that gold medal as a springboard, you know, even wilder, even wilder. Oh wait, yeah. You want to get even more recent. Won a bronze medal, bronze bomber. Use that as a springboard. Like men's U S Olympians, uh,

have not had a good run for decades now. So I don't know. There's a lot of teenagers I've seen coming up the ranks. Here's one in the heavyweight division.

Moses Atauma. I don't know if you heard that name before, but he's fought a bunch of B-level guys that has knocked them all out. He's 20 years old and has a little Mike Tyson vibe to him. A little bit of a Mike Tyson. He's knocking guys out early, like very early. He's not super big either. He's like 6'3", but he's got this ridiculous hand speed that guys just can't keep up with. He's fighting in August against Dillian White's.

And Dillian White used to be a pretty good fighter in the UK, but has long since passed his prime. That is going to be another spectacular knockout for Mo Satama. That's a guy I would watch. I don't know about the Caitlin Clark potential because he's a Brit, but does he have Anthony Joshua potential in terms of popularity? He might. He might. And if he fights over in the US more, maybe he gets one of those Lennox Lewis type followings that made Lennox a star.

That's a good one. Good name. All right, Mannix. Good luck in Anaheim. I hope the Celtics don't do any more trades after we just finished this podcast leading with Celtics trades. I would just, you know, the Hauser jersey you've got in your house there might be a collector's item. Maybe not before the draft, but at some point this offseason could be a collector's item. All right. Thanks, Mannix. Good to see you. You got it.

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Chris Mannix. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahal as always. And don't forget, I'm coming right back after round one in the NBA draft on Wednesday night. Be ready for that. Don't forget about Die Hard with a Vengeance, the rewatchables. It's up and I will see you in 24 hours. On a seat there, on a way so

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