The Cinderella Pacers Do It Again, Plus Trade Buzz From Indiana With Zach Lowe
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slash rules for free entry prizes and details. Message and data rates may apply. Avoid where prohibited. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by the Ringer Podcast Network, where you can find Zach Lowe's podcast. Whoa.

Big free agent edition in the beginning of April. Now we're in a hotel room in Indiana. We just watched a stunning NBA Finals Game 3. We have a very fancy tech setup. We're in my hotel room. I have my camera facing me. I have Zach's iPad facing him. They said we would have needed a video crew.

Right? We'd have people here. We'd have mics. We don't need that. We have cups with strings if need be attached to each other. You know what? We belong to the people. We can just put this together. We can just do this like the common man. We just watched an incredible game. Ring our podcast network. Check out the rewatchables. We put up Working Girl. When are you going to be in the rewatchables, by the way? No one asked me. People ask me this question. Just ask me. Well, you have to come to LA is the problem. I love Los Angeles. Okay. Well, you're going to be in the rewatchables at some point. Anyway, coming up, we're going to talk about

an incredible game three that we both went to. It's all next. Let's take a break. We'll bring in Pearl Jam. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years. And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home, car, and more. Whether you need an in-person or digital assist, they're ready when life hits you with a full court press. Get a game plan

that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer availability and eligibility vary by state. All right, Zach Lowe. It is...

1143 Eastern Time. We are in Indianapolis, Indiana. A wonderful place. I had a great time today. Everybody's super friendly. People love this Pacers team. There was a sense of, boy, it would be adorable if they could just get a couple punches in. We kind of know where this series is going. Around the third quarter, I started to get flashbacks to the 2011 finals when I was in Dallas. A Dallas team that did not make a lot of sense.

And they're playing Miami. First year of LeBron, Wade, Bosh. Just waiting for Miami to finish them off. And there was a point with the crowd and the energy and shots are going in and defensive plays where you kind of go, huh, what's going on here? And Indiana wins. And they're up two games to one. They're two games away from the 2025 NBA title, Zach Lowe. I'll tell you this right now. I was at Pacers practice yesterday. I've been around the Pacers a lot in the last three weeks.

The whole, like, we're playing with house money thing. It'd be nice if we got a punch or two in. None of that is filtered into them. They're like, oh, yeah, we can win. Like, we're as good as this team. We can beat this team. Like, none of that is applying to them. And I, you know...

The whole discussion in the last 48, 72 hours has been, I've seen like a million stories you've talked about with Ryan. Where does this team rank? And like, it's the most unusual potential champion, the most unusual finalists, you know, blah, blah, blah, preseason odds. It's time to start just shifting the discussion to something happened. And this is now a championship level team because regardless of what happens from here on out, they are up to one in the NBA finals over a 68 win team.

And that game tonight didn't feel fluky. It felt like two teams trading punches, a little ugly, a little grimy. People got tired. Some bad shots were taken. Some tough defensive possessions were inflicted by both teams. And they made enough big plays. The bench was unbelievable. But the most unusual thing, that's cool. It's going to be good trivia whether they win or lose. But something happened to this team, and they're just this good. First half.

The basketball was about as high level as you're going to get for a game three of the finals. Usually it takes a couple of games. That was like a game four, game five level game.

It's like, oh, they're going toe to toe. They're doing all the benches are coming in and actually making an impact. They're running really smart offense. They're attacking the other side like they've seen them for a bunch of games. I was halftime. I was just really impressed. Like talking to people in my section. Tommy came over. It was like that was just good basketball game. Tommy Alter. Tommy Alter stopped by. Just ubiquitous. Wearing a roots of fight jacket. Just super happy to be in Indiana. Third quarter starts.

Six-0 run, thunder, boom. And OKC comes out with some real physicality and some swagger. And it was like, all right, that was cute. That was a fun run by NNN. And just felt like it was going to go the way of all these other OKC games. And once again, they climbed out of the hole. Hal Burton was great. I don't want to do the Hal Burton stepped up thing because I thought that was the worst storyline of the week. And I thought it was a fundamental...

misunderstanding of who Halliburton is as a player, a guy who takes 13 to 14 shots a game, who averages 19 and nine during the season and 19 and nine in the playoffs. He is who he is. This is Steve Nash in the mid 2000s was like this. Chris Paul in the late 2000s and 2010s were like this. These guys are not built to score 20, take 20, 22 shots a game. They're not 30 point scorers.

They make everyone else better. That's the whole point of having them. They set the tone. They drive the car. You want to put them in an awesome car and let them do their thing. With that said, I thought he was a little more aggressive in the first half. No question. He clearly was like, I can't let whatever happened last game happen again. So he took a couple shots that weren't even great shots, but it was just, he was trying to get in the paint and he was trying to take a...

More stuff. But I thought he wasn't just awesome on offense. His hands were everywhere on defense. I don't know how many balls he touched, deflected, stole, but it felt like he was all over the place. Yeah, he had a pick six against Shea. Shea had a couple of bad pass turnovers that went the other way. Six turnovers for Shea. Indiana wins the turnover battle. That's step one to having any chance of beating the Thunder is like not just not lose it by too much.

They want it. I like Halliburton. I remember a long two. He took over at SGA in the first half. That was clearly just like an ISO. Like they want me to move more aggressive. This is like, I got to take this shot. He took a couple of threes where he just kind of pulled up like in, like before using a screen or in between a switch. Like I got a little window. I got to take it. Like I can't afford not to, not to take it. But the other stat is he was great. Halliburton was awesome.

Police sirens. I wonder if people can hear the police sirens. It's quite a scene walking from the arena to your hotel room, by the way. I would describe it as somewhere between joyous and euphoric. It was the kind of scene I've seen when it's 3-1 and your team's on the verge of winning. There was a kid hanging out of a moving car. There was a guy in a Larry Bird Indiana State jersey just running around yelling. Police were high-fiving people. It was great. Anyway.

Halliburton was awesome. 22-11 at nine. If you cared more about his stats, got to chase that 10th rebound, you know? Come on. Tyrese Halliburton, you got to step up. Get the triple-double, man. Get 10 rebounds and step up. Steal a rebound from somebody. Halliburton was brilliant. Still, even so, stat of the game, Halliburton. In a game they win by nine, just, and I'm being facetious, but just plus one. And they had been getting destroyed in the game.

in the non-Halliburton minutes, which are also the non-SGA minutes in the first two games, and they won those minutes decisively tonight. We know why. The bench guys, Matherin,

Toppin, big fourth quarter for him. Those guys were plus 16, plus 12, plus 18. By the way, two guys in Toppin and Matherin that have been the subject of, well, if the Pacers ever need to deduct the luxury tax or cut their tax bills, they can just dump those guys. Dump those guys. They just won you an NBA Finals game against a 68-win team. There's no dumping. No dumps will be taken with those guys. Well, the Pacers bench, what was it, 32-24 and...

They come in. TJ starts doing the TJ thing. They start pressing. He gets a steal, flip, whatever. It goes out of bounds. He does the thing where he goes to the side of the corner. He hooks up in front of everybody. And it was another supercharged thing for the crowd. Because they know they need the energy from those guys. I said to you on Thursday, even though Mathurin was terrible, I said, there's something...

He looked comfortable to me out there. There was something athletically comfortable for him. And I was thinking today about just in general, watching the game. They have all these Canadians out there who have all known each other forever, you know? And it's one of the reasons Nembhard, I don't think anyone can really guard SGA, but he's probably looked the best doing it because he's been playing against them since what, they were 12? He's just not afraid of them. And he knows all his moves. He doesn't fall for his herky-jerky thing. He's just kind of

always there. And then, you know, Matherin isn't afraid of anybody. He's the most irrational confidence guy you get. And then you flip it on the other side when we're talking about, you know, OKC looking a little young. They don't have that one guy. And again, we're nitpicking. I think that team's great. They don't have that one like crazy Matherin, he checked, let me carry us for...

four minutes guy. Well, it's the MVP. That's who it is. Well, that's the thing. It's SGA and J-Lim, but they don't have the random eighth guy that comes off the bench and does whatever. But so I'm trying to think like, if I'm Indiana, what am I taking away from that game? Big picture. Because, okay, so look young. We covered that piece. Um,

And they know that they can pressure them. They know that they can at least stay in the vicinity of guarding SGA. What are the other big takeaways for you?

I think they can take away number one that Halliburton found the right balance in how he needs to play and is growing comfortable more in this series to the point that I wonder if we see some adjustments from the Thunder defensively on him. I thought Indiana's defense minus their bigs are still having issues in the pick and roll against Shea. I thought they amped up the pressure in the second half. They started blitzing them a little bit more and just mixed in different stuff.

But minus those kind of breakdowns where Shea would fake toward a screen and go the other way and Miles Turner would be like, where do you go? Where do you go? And there'd be a layup or J-Dub, same thing. Got him a couple times. Their defense was really good. And actually, one of the reasons I'm interested to go back and watch this game is an insanely low three-point volume game for both teams in 2025. 27 threes for the Pacers, only 22 threes for the Thunder. Like, you don't see games anymore where neither team gets 33. So they were able to

Take away, not take away, but limit SGA a little bit. Make it tough for him without giving up. Like, like, could you? Wallace may have had one in the corner. That was an awful miss. Like a lot of their threes were contested. Tough threes. Like it was for a team whose defense is it's like slight limitation. They've played a pretty good defensive series, like minus those breakdowns. And just that just that the bench is.

The bench is ready for it. Even Ben Shepard, those 18 minutes from Ben Shepard are big, like, competent minutes. Like... Right. Yeah, he was at least staying with SJ. It wasn't like he was shutting him down. There's no...

Like we could not possibly say enough about McConnell and Matherin. Like they deserve like 10 minutes of this podcast. They were so good. Well, so when I said to you the, I think I said I could see him having 27 and 20 minutes. How many minutes did he play? Probably more than 20. And he had 27 points. Exactly. And the only one that I felt like he couldn't really do anything against because nobody can is Dort.

And he would try to get switches to get away from Dort so he could attack. But it felt like he was comfortable against everybody else. So I wrote down, it was OKC 90 to 84 right after that Jalen Williams hit that big three at the end of the third quarter. Ooh, that was a killer. Yeah. And I wrote down, that was an uh-oh for the rest of the decade moment because that was one of those, I got it, guys. And...

So I wrote down a bunch of stats because there was three minutes there. Indy had five turnovers in that quarter. They had seven in the first quarter, none in the second quarter when they played well. Indy was six for 22 from three after three quarters. And Turner was two for 10 and minus 15. And OKC was plus nine in rebounds. So every single stat was looking good for OKC. Indy wasn't playing well except for Halliburton and the bench guys when they came in. And then they swung it.

And I'm like you, I want to watch that tape again. It felt like the big things that swung were, um, Halbert made a couple of big plays. SGA looked, what's the word you would use? I, I thought frazzled, a wee frazzled. I just thought they're often, and this is if the thunder had, there is no weakness, but if the thunder have a weakness that we've seen or a limitation that we've seen in a few of these games, uh,

is that their offense can just sort of default into like, okay, we're just not going to pass. Like, I'm just going to do everything by myself. And J-Dub and Shea both had a lot of those down the stretch. Some successful, some not. I think they had 16 assists on, what, 37 baskets or something? Yeah. Today, I mean, that's a somewhat alarming number. And it's telling to me that after every timeout, if you go chart their out-of-timeout plays in this game, almost every one...

was some kind of like really heavily scripted set, like set piece where SGA would set a back screen for home grant or SGA would set it like almost like warriors, the off ball stuff. And it's diagonal trying to be like, let's get some stuff going here. But then when the going gets tough and the game gets into the muck and it's at the end,

And the Pacers contested those shots pretty well. Even Nembhard, like SGA would shove him off a little bit and Nembhard would just be like, I got shoved. I'm not going to give up on the play. And they didn't panic. Yeah, did you notice OKC was doing that? They're into Nisman too.

They were really physical drives. I mean, J-Dub is a tank, man. I felt like the first quarter and the third quarter, especially, OKC came out with a little bit of a physical swagger. Like, we're a stronger team than this team. Let's punish these guys. I just wonder if they thought

The whole series for Indiana rides on this game. If we can come in here and take this game and go up to one and win, you know, win two straight in series, take back home court advantage. We're going to smell blood in the water. They're going to be worried. We're going to reassert our sort of primacy in the series. I wonder if they just came out and like, this is the series for Indiana, because this feels obviously way different if it's okay. See to Indiana one. And now it's like now game four is, um,

just a perfect, awesome game for us to go to. Well, and game four is also the way they do this final schedule. It's the most interesting game because it's the one game where you only have the one day rest. And by the way, isn't that awesome? Because...

The two days of rest between games one and two. And it's nice they spaced the finals out. You don't want to overstress the players. But it did feel like some of the momentum from that crazy first game was sort of dissipated over 48 hours. Now it's like one day off, practices tomorrow, everyone's going to talk. We go right back at it. I was probably 10 rows behind the OKC bench. And I was watching them before the game. And I was watching them. They took a big lead the first four or five minutes. They were up like 13-6th.

Was there a double-digit lead in the game at any time? I don't think there was. I thought, yeah, they got to 15-6. I think that was the biggest lead. And Chet had eight. Hal Burton hadn't gotten going in any way yet. We were actually wondering if he was hurt because that was a big topic the last day. Is he hiding some sort of injury? He wasn't. He was obviously fine. But in the timeout, they're laughing.

They, all their chests are out. They're like doing like, you can kind of tell with benches sometimes how confident a team is. Now I sound like body language guy, but I, but in this case, he made the trip and it was really funny to watch that kind of demeanor shift over the course of the game.

By the fourth quarter, there was none, obviously none of that because they're behind, but it was kind of like almost a little shell shock. Nobody was talking. There was like Caruso coming in and doing like the come on guys. But for the most part, that swagger like got just pulled out of them over the course of two hours. And this was like one of those great finals games where,

It swung back and forth a bunch of times. It was like, oh, this team's up four in momentum. And immediately the other team would answer. Both teams had answers and answers and answers until just the Pacers had a few more answers. And then they ran out of clock. OKC missed the free throws they needed to make to have any chance. Caruso didn't get the flagrant call. What did you think of that foul from your perspective? I think you get that call at OKC.

I think you get that call in the regular season. Oh, you 100% get it. If it's a Friday night ESPN game, you get that call. I didn't mind it not being called. I thought he pulled his hand up right after he hit him. Like he didn't like follow through. Well, so that's why I like, I mean, I don't want to belabor it because the game, it didn't end up mattering that much. But I do think

There's some skill in not being so out of control that you just decapitate someone. And Neesmith, he missed his head. He missed his neck. He hit his shoulders and his arms and didn't wind up crazily. He took some precaution to not just kill Alex Caruso in midair. The problem is he had no chance in that play. He was directly behind him. And usually they give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who's ahead because they don't want those guys to get hurt in those. But I was fine with it.

Can we talk about McConnell and Matherin more? So, yeah, we have a bunch of stuff. McConnell had three McConnell's in one NBA finals game. He caught an inbounds pass. That's a McConnell. McConnell is an inbounds steal. He got three of them in one. I'm like, well, so what's an official McConnell? Because he jumped up like a defensive end on the football line.

and stole like a screen pass. That's actually interesting. Is it a McConnell? It's a full McConnell. If he, if he, if he grabs the pass out of the air, that's right. A full McConnell is if he's the first person to touch an inbounds pass from the other team and he steals the ball. Yeah. A semi McConnell is they inbounded to another player who catches it. And then he just takes the ball away. That's all. That's a different guy. He had three full McConnell's in one game, including 95, 91 in the fourth quarter.

Thunder have the ball in their head by four. Jalen Williams brings the ball over half court, gets pressed a little bit, picks up his dribble inexplicably, and then like throws a pass to nobody. McCullough,

McConnell gets it. Yeah. Goes down the court, misses offensive rebound. Nem heart hits a short two. It's 95, 93 instantaneous McConnell put back layup, 95, 95. It's like, what just happened? Like it could have been a six point game and it's tied in five seconds. And I'm McConnell crowd goes crazy too. Yeah. There was a few times like they fucked up a few fast breaks.

McConnell had one where he just was like tearing down. It was like a one on four and he just whipped it into the corner. They reviewed it. It was, it was just a bad play, but where it felt like Indiana was about to go up by eight. And every time it felt that way, they would do something dumb. McConnell was,

You know, I, we've seen him do this at home. Like if you actually watch the Pacers the last couple of years, this is a big part of who they are. It's him coming in these home games and swinging the game. Mather and hit or miss. She knew he was going to have a game like this at some point. Toppin was the revelation for me because there's been times in the playoffs where he looks unplayable. And then there's other times in the playoffs where you go, wow,

I can't believe the Knicks just gave him away because they did. They, I mean, they needed the seller cap, but they literally gave him away. Um, that followup donkey had, which I was lucky cause it was on my basket.

and you could see there was a miss, and you could see him timing it from the foul line and coming up, and all of a sudden he was 12 feet. And by the way, that was one of the big Carlisle moves of the game. He sat Siakam until I think like three and a half minutes left. He rode the top and Turner combination. The big man rotation was... But sitting Siakam was pretty bold. Yeah. Like, I don't... Well, and it's fitting for the kind of player Pascal Siakam is. Yeah.

that the first time we mentioned him X minutes into this podcast is about how he wasn't in the game for a lot of the fourth quarter. And all he did was finish with 21, six and four on eight of 14 shooting. And just like, he just, I've said this to you before. He's like the electric current pulsing through the game. You don't notice it all the time, but it's, it's powering them constantly. And like, yes, he was on the bench for some of the fourth quarter. He still had a great game defensively. I thought he was awesome. Made a lot of plays on defense. He should have been on the bench for that long. Well, I thought it was really risky because he,

I didn't think Turner was good. And ironically, Turner in the last couple of minutes had three straight awesome defensive plays that kind of glitched the game. So that's why he was out there. But he was bad for most of the game. Well, Toppin, you know, he has it's 105-100. I just I'm not doing this from straight memory, but I just like the play by play. 105-100. Dort misses a wide open corner three to bring it to within two. By the way, I thought that was going in.

I didn't, I mean, anything blew Dort touch for the first three quarters of the game. Dort's hit the point where I think every shot he's taking is going in. Toppin got what will go as an unheralded

really good contested defensive rebound. Yep. So defensive rebound by Toppin, immediate offensive putback dunk by Toppin on a Halliburton miss, and then Toppin switches onto J-Dub on the next possession and blocks him at the rim. Yeah. Three incredible Toppin plays in 45 seconds to swing the game from like really in the balance of that door three goes in or they get an offensive rebound or something to Indiana is now in full control of the game going down the stretch. He's a classic

Nice guy to have in a playoff home game with an awesome crowd. I mean, that putback dunk was... You know who's like that for the Celts? Robert Williams was like that. There's certain guys who are just like great playoff home game guys. I actually thought about Robert Williams today for some reason during a meeting I had with somebody. And I was talking about a center. I was thinking about centers that can rim run and pass and how rare that combination is and how it looked like Robert Lord was going to be one of those guys. And now it's like...

where is he? What's happening? Anyway, I allowed myself to think of the Celtics today as I was walking to the, uh, whatever the Indiana arena is called, which by the way, it's been around since 1999. Yeah. It might be my favorite arena. Same year as Staples center. The place is awesome. And the Staples center should, should, uh, should be fumigated. Um, but I was thinking as I was walking there a year ago, I went to the two Dallas Celtic games in Dallas and,

which were super fun. And it was like, really felt like the Celtics were going to win the title. And this was, hopefully this finals could be, and now the Celtics win.

era is completely over. Everybody's being traded. Wasn't game three the seminal? Yeah, go lines at the refs and fouls out. That was the Jalen Brown Duncan traffic game. That was the Jalen Brown won the finals MVP that game. That was a crazy game to be in. And that was the Luca just fouled out. Oh my God, this is full circle Kyrie.

Kyrie is going to beat the Celtics in this game. I can't believe this is lined up and then he actually missed some shots. We're going to take a break and a lot more discuss about this game. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer is here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do I mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well-groomed lawn delivered.

but you can get chicken Parmesan delivered. I love chicken Parmesan. A day in the sun? No. A bottle of rum? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Let's talk about Indiana, the basketball city, because we're both here.

which is a really special place. And obviously I've talked about it a million times. It's the place of Hoosiers and Larry Bird and, you know, it's 49 states. And then there's Indiana, whatever the saying is. They show Oscar Robertson courtside, you know, legend in high school in 1950s. It's weird. Oscar doesn't really have a team in the NBA.

because he played for the Cincinnati Royals that don't exist anymore. And then he was in the Bucks for a few years, but Indiana is kind of weirdly his team. Then they go back. They show Reggie Miller. They show Ed, Edgerton, James. That was a great one. I was like, this is great. Please show Larry legend. Where is he? Um,

But the crowd was just, you know, everyone's wearing jerseys. Everyone is like super optimistic. And a bunch of people are talking to me or yelling at me like, what do you think? What do you think? We got a chance. Like just like the happiest basketball place. So much fun to come here. And you made the key point. The arena is probably the best. It's a great arena. I think it's number one for me. Every seat is good. Even the corners are good. The crowd feels like they're on top of the game. When you have a game like today, I do think it affects the game.

Because I think if you're the visiting team, it's just it feels like the fans are on top of you in a slightly different way. And those fans are fantastic. And boy, game four. I mean, look, Oklahoma City said gut check moments in the Denver series down to one. That was a big test. Minnesota, I mean, up to one in Minnesota for game four. Semi gut check. A little bit of a gut check. This is the ultimate.

If you want to become a championship team, this is about as big of a game and as big of a test as you're going to face down to one in the finals on the road against the team that has proven itself championship caliber. And that absolutely thinks we can do the whole thing. Like there's no doubt it. There's no, if there were any doubt and I don't really think there was, there is no doubt anymore that like we can do the whole thing.

So the 2015 Warriors, I think they went. Did the whole thing. Well, I think they fell behind 2-1 to Memphis. They did. And hit that similar point and they had to win game four in Memphis. In the second round. It wasn't like. No, this is way bigger stakes. But it was the same kind of, with the younger teams, you have the chest hair game. I thought they already had the chest hair game when the Denver series started.

They had three of them. Well, yeah. Four of them, if you include a game six loss. Was it game four? All these games blend together. One of those. Game four, game five. Game four and game five, they both won. Game four. Game four in Denver. Game four in Denver in a game where they were behind and teetering. And then Wiggins, that was Wiggins making shots against the zone. And Jalen Williams hit the three and gave. Yeah, it was that stretch. I thought that's when they got through it. But now you're right.

This is, uh, because I watched this happen. The reason I mentioned that Dallas Miami series at the top, you can think you're the better team and OKC is, has a better team. They have a better team, but you still have to beat the other team four times. Indiana doesn't think OKC is better than them. They showed it today. And at some point they're going to have to go and take it. And when you're at these games, when you're in the room and you feel it slipping away, I, there's nothing, there's no other sport like it.

Like football, baseball, none of these, hockey, none of these other sports have where you're watching it going, I can't believe this is how it's playing out. I remember in the Dallas-Miami series, Jason Terry hit that crazy 30-foot three against Miami to clinch, I think it was game five, hit the hand with LeBron's hand in his face. Even when he was taking it, I was like, I can't believe Dallas is going to win game five. This is the most amazing thing I've ever seen. And then they won it. They went in sixth.

So there's going to be a moment in game four when OKC is going to have to decide, is this really how our season's going to end? This is what's going to happen?

First of all, just for the record, the Cavs were up 2-1 over the Warriors in the 2015 finals. So the Warriors did have a game four on the road and that's when they went small and started to go small. Did you ever think that Cavs without Kyrie and starting Mozgov and Amon Shumpert currently podcasting with Brian Windhorst? Yeah, I never felt like the Warriors were in major danger. It was weird. Memphis, I felt like they were more dangerous for them because Memphis was so weird. So here's the thing about like you just said Oklahoma City is a better team.

I think we all think Oklahoma City's a better team. Does it mean they're going to win the series? No, but, and I can hear Indiana fans saying, hold on now, like you erase our first 30 games when Halliburton is just finding his rhythm after a tough start and we get our defense together, Nemhar, Denise Smith get healthy and back in the lineup. We can go toe to toe with anybody. And they were much better. I'm just looking up the numbers now from February 1st till March

So half the season, basically. Oklahoma City, 31-5, net rating 13.7. Indiana, 24-12, net rating 3.7. So getting there, but still kind of a big gap. From March 1st on, it gets narrower. Oklahoma City, 20-3, plus 12.9. Indiana, 17-7, plus 5.3. So yeah, the gap narrowed, but this is still surprising.

surprising that Indiana has gotten this good this fast and kept trending up and kept narrowing that gap. And now they're just, they're just as good. I mean, we got to, we didn't talk enough about Matherin, your guy. So he's the one guy in the team who feels like he can create his own shot against really good defense, no matter who's guarding him, except for the door. Who's what was impressive to me was how calm he looked.

Just how easy those mid-range jumpers look for him. Like, I'm just walking right into it. I'm just strolling into it. And maybe you got to pressure him more or whatever. There was a lot of commentary there.

on Twitter about Oklahoma City's bigs are too far back on some of these. I thought it was mostly good defense. You just got to make guys make shots. But he scored on jumpers. He scored on pull-up threes. He scored on catch-and-shoot threes. He had a bunch of cuts in the first half off and off of McConnell actions and stuff where it's like he just had a very mature defense

all around floor game that you don't necessarily associate with a guy that was kind of known as a chucker. And he did a little bit of everything. You got transition points, like a little bit of every part of his offensive game came out and the, and it was just,

And, you know, he had 14 in the second quarter. Yeah. And he's like, you know, there's this whole thing of Indiana never tanks and they build from the middle. And that's largely true. He is the, he is the product of like, they're really only close to bottoming out season when they got the six pick and Jairus Walker is the other one and he's not playing. He's been injured and whatever, but like,

They're now getting something from him. They're getting a lot from him. They're just like, they just have a lot of good players. I actually think Walker would have played in this series. I do too. Yeah. I like Walker. Um, 14 in the second quarter for him. It's a weird one because it feels like he's been on the trade block for about a year in some ways. Like he does feel he has felt available.

And he's always the person that gets brought up first. You said that earlier when they talk about if they change the team, is he in it? If they try to upgrade, like if they try to get like Cam Johnson or whoever, but I don't know. I, I, I like the vibe that he brings to them, this hit or miss vibe.

He can carry you for a quarter. Like I really value guys like that. So there's this whole debate. Richard was like that for the Celtics where he could just carry them for eight minutes out of nowhere and you never knew what was going to happen. And when it happened, it was like, fuck it. You felt like you found money in your pocket. There's this whole debate with Matherin about, you know, he doesn't really play the pacer style. Like the ball sticks with him a little bit more. He's not as intuitive, a quick twitch, quick pass, quick cut decision makers, everybody else on the team.

And I think I said this to you last time we podcasted. Initially, I think that was thought of as like, eh, he's not that great of a fit. He doesn't play the way we feel. And the more I watch him, the more I'm like, every team kind of needs a curveball. Even the Warriors, like Steve Kerr, it's a little bit of a weird example to bring up now. But he would always be like, the reason I like Wiggins on our team is

he can break away from our beautiful game cuts and just like get us a few buckets one-on-one when nothing else is working. We need that kind of guy on our team.

I think he's like the curveball that to be a championship team, you kind of need. If you play, if Indiana, if you play a style that's like Indiana, I think you need a guy who could be like, yeah, that style is cool, but I'm just going to do some like traditional guy stuff. Right. Be the guy. I don't feel like he's as ball stoppy as he used to be. No, he's gotten much better. And defensively, he's gotten better too. One thing I noticed, I wanted to talk to you because it's about as basketball nerdy as I'm going to get with you. You can go out.

seven levels higher than me with some of the super nerd stuff and talk pin downs and double pin downs and reverse pin downs. Oh yeah. Upside down pin downs. How many pin downs are there? A lot of pin downs. A lot of painters are breaking out. You can do a full pin down podcast. Um, one thing I've noticed that these two teams specifically do, and I don't know if it's a trend and I don't know if it's something teams will copy when they watch this and see what's successful. Um,

They do it with Shea, with OKC, and they do it with Halliburton, but then weirdly also with Matherin, where it's like the guy has the ball, set him to pick up top, he's moving around, he's moving back, he dumps it off, the ball immediately comes back to him. And it's like this constant, it's almost like watching a hockey power play where they keep giving it back to the defenseman so he can reset whatever the attack on the net.

And the ball just kind of keeps moving around. It's these little hockey passes versus like how the Celtics play, where it's like, we dribble up. I'm going to hunt this matchup. Come set me a pick. You three guys stand there. I'm just going to keep dribbling until I get the look I want. And then I'm going to shoot. Indy's doing a version of that in OKC is too, where the ball is still moving around all the time, but they're doing the same thing. And I think it's way harder to stop. And I wonder if it's going to be,

something that's replicated next season. Was that coherent? Do you know what I mean? Somewhat coherent, yeah. I mean, it's 12, 12, 20 a.m. Yeah, I'm a little groggy. You flew cross-country. I did. You're doing great. I mean, Indiana definitely plays a more random, unpredictable style than Oklahoma City. And I just think

But do you think that they deliberately don't want anybody to have the ball for more than like three, three and a half seconds? For sure. It seems like that's a real thing for them. It can't be a hard and fast rule because sometimes Siakam has a mismatch. You just got to give him the ball and let him manufacture some points. So he'll back down. That's like the one time they'll mess around with it. And Matherin, you know, will do his stuff. But I mean, you could only play that way if your best player, your offensive number one option is...

is a guy who wants to get off the ball fast, who lives to get other people involved. And often...

you know, Anthony Edwards is learning this in Minnesota. Like if you get off the ball, you will often get it back. It will go all the way around to you because you will have compromised the defense with that first pass and it will, there'll be in rotation and you'll be the guy who the ball should get back to in rotation. And Halliburton just plays that way. You can't play that way. If your best player doesn't, doesn't have that kind of bath basketball ethos to him. And he does. Yeah. Cause in person you can watch, it's much easier to watch the people who don't have the ball. Yeah.

So I was watching some of the stuff Neesmith was doing in the second half as they're doing all the stuff on the top and Halbert and he's dipping off, he's getting back and they're moving around and they're trying to create mismatches and he's in the corner. But then sometimes he would kind of creep in if the, if the defender was falling asleep on him and see if he could get a little back cut or he would, he would dart in or he would try to get an offensive rebound. Everybody in that team is up to something. It's not a team where the guys are just like,

I'll just be here in the corner. I hope it works out for you. You know what I mean? So they are very, I talked about this on my much, my nerdier podcast before. On the pin down? But on the pin down with Zach Lowe. That would make a good title. But we're going to get deep now. Deep in Indiana Pacers lore right now. They are extremely proud of Neesmith.

For exactly what you just described. For learning how to move without the ball, to screen, to be random, to cut, to always be on his toes. Remember on the Celtics? He just stood there. Well, that was one of the reasons. I mean, he was wasn't his fault. And they just told him, go in the corner. You're not going to have the ball. And you know what the deep cut is? The guy they give a lot of credit, not only for that,

But for his partnership with Halliburton and Halliburton really leaning into a crazy motion, get off the ball offense, is a guy who's no longer on the Pacers. It's Buddy Heald. The coaches of the Pacers talk about Buddy Heald's lasting impact on Neesmith, on Halliburton, and just how they play. Like, it comes up.

And first of all, everybody loves Buddy Heald. He's the most gregarious personality. He's an extremely hard worker. He's a beloved teammate. Everybody loves Buddy Heald. But they talk about his impact in particular on exactly what you just described with Neesmith more than anyone else on the team. I wonder if it's replicable or I wonder if they just have been doing it for so long. Because OKC will have, they have their version of it, but then they also do what you talked about earlier where...

It's just a lot of dribbling. And the ball stops moving around in the same way. And look, they made tough shots. Like, if you said before the game, Chet, J-Dub, and Shea are going to combine for 70 points. On, like, not great shooting, but let me see if I can do the math. 24 of 53 with a lot of free throws between them, too. Like, it's not like they...

their offensive rating for the game is bad, but it didn't feel like, I mean, they got nothing from the bench. Hartenstein's first bad game of the series. Wiggins disappeared, got zero. The Hartenstein thing is an issue. That'll be one of the topics tomorrow about

maybe this is why they were so afraid to play the double bigs. Maybe this is, maybe they anticipated this. Maybe there was stuff during the season that they saw with this matchup with him. Cause I thought that he looked a little gamey. I'm also like, if I'm Indiana, I'm delighted when, and I think Isaiah Joe's a good player, but every time somebody like Isaiah Joe or even Wiggins is in the game, I'm so happy that the fucking gauntlet of all those defenders are out there at the same time. And conversely,

I mean, watching what Nembhard was trying to do to SGA, and I thought that he got called for a couple chintzy fouls. Watching how different SGA was the moment Nembhard would come out of the game versus when Nembhard did, I thought it was pretty interesting. It was like the straight jacket came off, basically. Nembhard is just awesome. Pick 31. Pick 31.

I pick 31. We're just never going to be good at the draft. That's, that's what we learn over and over again. Pick 31, 30 guys over pick 31. And they got him and the pick that became Ben Shepard in the same little, just random trade. I think it was one of the carousel of our trades and Nembhardt.

Eight points, nothing jumps off the stat sheet. He's just an awesome basketball player. I remember when he signed that contract, which was like $18, $19 million a year. If you go back and read some of the reviews, I don't know, that's a little too much for a team that's going to be up against the tax. I remember just thinking, the guy's good. A good player making $20 million, that's just fine. He's just a really good player. Are you ever...

unhappy when Andrew Namhart is on the floor, no matter what he's doing. It's like, I'm always happy to have that guy around. Even if he's floating around on offense or not guarding the best guy, or he's switched on to that guy. It's like, he's going to do the right thing every single time. Even if the right thing is not something that you really notice. He's also a dick. And I mean this as a compliment. He's, he's got a dick side. That's like very, very underground, but it'll come out once or twice a game. There's a moment in the game

where SGA got fouled and then he tried was going for a continuation Nembhard came in and basically did the second foul on him and SGA didn't like it he went to the ref to complain about the foul and Nembhard just walked over right next to him and was just like being a dick and was like really you're gonna bitch about that and was just kind of just trying to get under his skin a little bit which he's been doing in every series and he loves it and it's like a Canadian thing

He's doing like the Canadian playoff hockey thing. He's like the guys that basically he would be on Florida. Just like hint

Hint somebody with a stick right after the whistle. I love that shit. I did listen to you and Ryan talk about the Stanley Cup Finals a little bit. It made me want to get into the Stanley Cup Finals. You would love it. Florida apparently has got a lot of hateable guys. Oh, Nembhard wouldn't even crack the top five for... What's his score? Who's winning that, sir? Florida's up. Do they alternate so at least we can go NBA Finals and NHL Finals? Yeah, they do. They try to steer clear from NBA. Game three was the classic where Florida took a big lead and then we just had to have fights.

They, each team has to lay down their, uh, their masculinity on the other team. I will never get over that fighting is just allowed in hockey. I just, I, it's crazy. The one that's really crazy is professional. There's professional lacrosse stuff where they can fight. They in hockey of skates, like you only can get so much leverage. You're in lacrosse. You can really like, you know, plant and sock somebody. I'm kind of surprised that lacrosse fights. Um, all right. More stuff from this game. Yeah. Go.

OKC starting five with Wallace. Do we see anything different in game four, which I think we both agree is a backs to the wall game for OKC? Because if you go down 3-1 with game six looming, I don't care how good you are. That's a place that only a few teams in the history of the league has come back from. I think the only move, I'm going to guess no.

I think the only reasonable move, unless it's something out of left field, like we're going to just start Kendrick Williams and see what happens in the case of Wallace. But I think the only move is to start Caruso over Wallace. That's what I had as well. And I don't really know that anything that happened today screams for that being necessary, but

Well, I don't love the plus minus stat, but did you see the plus minus stat? Yeah, Caruso, well, Caruso's minus 15 today. And Wallace was minus 10. So take whichever you like. But, I mean, Caruso's, and Caruso played 32 minutes. And I don't know how much more than that he's going to play, even if you start him or not. But he is better than Case and Wallace. Well, I do wonder, like, we see these coaches...

The further you get in the playoffs, that rotation starts to tighten, right? And OKC is an unusual team because like even today, they played 11 minutes like legitimately. I mean, 11 guys played...

Ken Rich Williams only played two minutes, but they still, they played, he played 11 minutes. And I hated the one shot Ken Rich Williams took. Do you remember the shot that he took? It wasn't great. Just got the ball at three point arc, jab step, like 28 feet from the rim. Like, I guess I'm just going to shoot now. It was like one of those possessions where it's like, hey, I'm in the finals. I get, I'm going to take a three. I just feel like you're probably good with nine guys, maybe 10 max. But if you're down...

Usually what we see teams short in the rotation go to eight, maybe seven playing big minutes. I had the same thought. I wonder if Caruso just starts and maybe they do it that way. The only other one I was thinking was, would they start Isaiah Joe and

for some, just a weird three-point look out of nowhere for seven minutes trying to get some offense. That's another out-of-the-left-field one. I don't see it. The other thing that's interesting is in the last two games, we've seen zero of the no big man lineup. And I thought

That lineup did not. I think the plus minus was not good in game one, but I still thought it was something I would try. If I were the Thunder, I'm a little surprised that they've gone like completely away from it. I would like to see that as like a four minute just blitz them with switching and swiping and steals and see if that can just like muck up the game a little bit with even more speed than we normally have. Well, neither of us work for ESPN anymore.

But I think we have to. I don't? We have to do a segment. Whatever. We're both gone. We have to do a segment called Step Up. Okay. Who's got to step up? I'm looking at the box score right now. And in case I'm wrong, I don't know if you need to step up. Isaiah Hartenstein, you need to step up.

Miles Turner maybe needs to step up. Isaiah Hart said, the $30 million man. You were their big franchise edition? Yeah, four and three.

No, that's the thing is like, I think that was just a really nice competitive fucking basketball game. Maybe SGA? Slight step up? Well, let's talk about that. 10% step up? 24 points, 6 turnovers, 4 assists. 20 shots, 24 points, 42 minutes. It took us too long to get here. Yeah. He did not play a good enough game. He didn't. He didn't. He...

Took us too long to get to SGA. We're so in love with the McConnells and the Matherins and the Toppins. Took us too long to get to SGA. Because he didn't play. He was like good. Or like a B-SGA game, probably. I would go C+. C+. So here's what. Here was the vibe I got from him in this game. It reminded me of FIBA. As you know, I'm one of the only people that loves all the FIBA games in the Olympics. When the rules are different and we send the guys over there and they think they're going to get a call and they don't get it.

And then they do another and they don't get the call and they're just kind of, are you going free throw merchant? I'm not going merchant. Um, it just felt like he was getting defended, uh,

in a way that, uh, he didn't really adjust to as well that well. Uh, he, he was trying to bounce off guys. There was one time where, you know, he did get the hook arm. He did that a couple of times, but for the most part, I thought the refs called him really fairly. I thought they called both sides. Like the Indiana crowd was probably madder than maybe they should have been, but you know, they're a home crowd they're doing, but I thought for the most part, they allowed a lot of physicality on both sides. And I don't know if that's great for him. I,

And I also thought, again, like with the exception of their big man point of attack defense on some pick and rolls, like Miles Turner, Thomas Bryant, that their defense was pretty good. And I thought their off-ball defense, again, I'll go back and watch it tomorrow.

But just like they're stunting back and forth on his pick and rolls, they're trying to make him a decision maker and cloud his decision making. And I thought they did a good job of that tonight. Like a lot of the, a few of his turnovers were bad pass turnovers on the pick and roll where he was kind of caught in between reads a little bit and didn't quite know what to do with it. I thought their defense, and they started doubling him. He loves to do the thing where he drives to like the deadest dead spot on the floor, the spot that nobody ever wants to ball in, which is like,

18 feet from the rim on the baseline because he just thinks no one is going to come help here. It's just going to be me because who's going to double here? And the Pacers, as the Wolves did a little bit in the last series,

started springing doubles on him there. Topping kept coming over. I thought that was smart. We're just not going to give you this shot. We're going to force you to pass it. And once they gave up, their rotations were bad. Isaiah Joe hit a wide open three. Like the one guy you absolutely cannot leave open on Oklahoma City. But other than that, their rotations were pretty good. And, you know, I just think, you know, again, Rick Carlisle was very good at not overdoing anything. Like just because they did that a few times today and it worked, they may not do it the first couple of times Shea goes to that spot.

in game four. They did a nice job. It didn't feel like he was going downhill as much as he normally does in playoff games when he's just scoring 36 to 38 points. My guess would be he's going to be awesome in game four. I mean, game two was just a spectacular. Yeah, that was an A plus. Today was a C plus. Yeah. And when you maybe stumble on something, I was an easy teacher, so I'd give him a B minus. But when the MVP has a B minus C plus, like

You're vulnerable. My grades for today, the Indiana crowd was an A+. A+. Superb job by them. I have no notes. Just keep doing what you're doing, Indiana. And I loved having Oscar Robertson and Reggie Miller there. And Larry Legend should be here for game four if they really want to bring the roof down. Fucking private jet. Mark Jackson was here. Mark Jackson was there? Mark Jackson was up in a suite. Yeah. I thought Hal Burton was probably an A.

I think the A-plus would have been the game four in Nick's series. I really liked some of the stuff he was doing on defense. I thought he was active and problematic for OKC, but I thought he was fantastic. Toppin gets an A-minus for me. Matherin gets an A. TJ McConnell, probably a B-plus. I didn't like a couple of the turnovers. And then for OKC, I really liked what Jalen Williams did in that game.

I thought they relied on him in kind of a shocking way offensively where it almost felt like they were 1A, 1B, little Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum-ish. It does feel like the more stress they get put under and the fewer easy transition baskets they get, that's when they get rolling, right? And that's when their passing gets unleashed and they get alley-oops and all that.

It does feel like for not all the time, not even for the majority of them, but for segments of each of these games, high pressure games.

that there's not as much synergy between Shea and J-Dub as you would like there to be. A little dueling banjos? A little bit of like, wow, there's been a lot of Jalen Williams going on right now and Shea's kind of standing in the corner. Like, okay, now there's a lot of Shea going on. And you would just like a little bit more possessions when there's like a lot of both going on. That's all. We're going to take a break and then I have a really important subject to bring up about this series. That's, that's,

I could see getting cut out of a social media video. Oh boy. Yeah. All right. Coming back. Social media segment time. Okay. You want to say it? I'll let you do it. Kyle, turn the TikTok camera on. If OKC loses this series. Oh boy. Here we go. You can't resist going to the end. We're in the middle. Let's enjoy the middle.

I wasn't allowing myself or even considering it was a possibility until I was in that arena tonight when realizing that OKC has to figure out how to win in that arena either Friday night or next week. Or they're not going to win the title. It's good math. Your math is right. If they don't win the title, this would be an absolute historic basketball calamity because they had one of the greatest seasons of all time.

and start to finish. I'm not saying they're one of the greatest teams of all time, but they had one of the seven, eight, nine, 10, whatever list you want to do from net ratings to actual record to dominance to 15, 20 point wins. It was one of the best seasons anyone's ever had. And to then go to the finals and lose

You're in rare ground. You're in 2016 Warriors, Draymond punching LeBron in the balls and Steph playing on an injured ankle and Festus Azeale being trapped on an island against LeBron for two straight threes. And all of a sudden we've lost. What the hell happened? This does not happen a lot in basketball. Usually the right team, usually the better team, usually the team that has the best season wins the title.

But then occasionally that's not what happens. And this is one of those times. It would be interesting to look back at most dominant teams that didn't win. It's the shortest list possible. It's a very short list. I remember doing this last year when Boston was on the verge of winning the title because of their number. What did they win? 66 games last year or something? When you get into the 80 win territory as a team, when you're 80, 18, 82, and 20, like

But I remember going through basketball reference and doing the wins, regular season wins, regular season net rating, playoff net rating, and how many teams checked every box at a certain level of eliteness or whatever. Like just narrowing it down or finagling the numbers in different ways. And let's just say when the Thunder were up 2-0 against Minnesota...

I reread that the piece that I ended up writing about Boston and where that Boston team place in history should be and would be compared to those other teams. Which was a pure math case. And just, well, no, it just like, but it wasn't a pure math case. No, just like record stats. The ultimate conclusion, which I think was right, and a lot of people made it was, the math says that Celtics team is like way up here. I think they're probably a little bit like...

Really great team, but with some of the other just like really great teams. Not as up here as the Mets. But anyway, I just cut and pasted that and put it in an email to myself to have it fresh in preparation for what looked like... I mean, when they were up 2-0 against Minnesota...

It was like, are they just going to win? Are they not losing for the rest of the season? I think I led my podcast that night that way. That's how dominant they are. Are they just going to go 6-0 and the playoffs are going to be over before we know it? And again, the net rating can be what it is. And again, the Pacers became a very good team. The signs were all there. But there was still a difference between what Oklahoma City was

resume wise of what the Pacers were last 40 games, even resume wise calamity. I mean, I just think you have to give the credit to the pace for something magical has happened here and there's still a long way from finishing it off. Like this is going to be very hard to do against a great team. That's still probably favorite. I would like to look at that. That's a good segment. Magical or calamity.

Magical calamity. Calamical. I think you're right in that the story leans more toward this is one of the most incredible stories in the history of the NBA. Something happened. This Pacers team won the title. Something happened here. But I also think another piece would be, holy shit.

OK, see, check every box we ever thought we'd have to check for a team that was going to win the title and they didn't win the title. Except for one box that you've already brought up. Youth. Age. Yeah. Veteran, whatever. Well, that's the scariest thing with them is that they, you know, if they end up winning the title, I don't feel like they're close to being the team they're probably going to be two years from now if everyone's healthy. They're just going to be better. Yeah.

They're going to be better. And like the poster guy for that to me is Chet. Right. I was talking to Drew Hanlon before the game. He works with Chet among many other people. And I was just saying to him, like, I watched Chet in these games and he's missed so much time in his brief NBA career and he'll do three or four things every game.

where I'm like, is he just kind of scratching the surface of what he's going to do offensively? Like, is he even doing 50% of what he's going to be able to do offensively? Drew's response was enthusiastic. Yes. Like, there's a lot more there, and I won't go into the conversation anymore, but he's the guy. So you're saying Drew Hanlon talked about one of the players he was training? Well, we just, I talked about it, and he like nodded. I'm kidding. But like, yeah, I mean. Well, I think he's right.

Because it's funny, Van texted me a couple of days ago. I was like, how good is Chet? I'm like, what do you mean? Is there more here or is this it? And I was like, I actually think there's way, way, way more here. Because even in college, the way they used him at Gonzaga, he'd be at the top of the key and he would almost like a little like how Duke used Cooper Flag last year where he was a little point forward-y sometimes. But I think there's this whole other level where you could...

run offense through him at the top of the key and he could either fake threes or go you know kick out there's a post up game that I'll probably have what four years from now I mean in the first quarter of that game he had a coast to coast take around Miles Turner and then he had a little short roll where Miles Turner was there like on the catch and he just took like one dribble pivot step back like 12 footer 15 footers like god damn that's a tough shot this seems pretty amazing

I, uh, they're down to one of the finals to the Indiana Pacers. I'm going to go on Fando right now. What do you think the line is? Oklahoma city minus one 10, but I have no, to be clear to the listeners, I have no idea how any of this works. Okay. See minus two 35. That's wow. Wow. That's a thing. Wasn't it minus three 50 or something coming into this game? So this win, I guess it's a home win. No, it jumped up to the five hundreds again after they won game two.

Everyone and their brother had OKC in five as their finals pick. Did you have it? I had it. We're wrong. We're officially wrong three games into the series. Everyone was wrong. And I didn't want to do it because everyone had it. I wanted to zag and I just couldn't figure out how Indiana was going to win two games. And now we know that game one game, that comeback and Halliburton, the shot he hits. And that's how you...

Could that be how the entire series swings? I don't know. All right. Predictions for game four. And then I have some trade stuff to ask you about. Oh, good. I like a 1245. Yeah. Well, you had one thing on your pod I really want to dive into. Okay. Predictions for game four. I'm just going to say Oklahoma City wins a very close game. But Oklahoma City, 118, Indiana, 114. Well, can we talk...

Maybe neither team because they're both pretty young. Who has an advantage from that game today that we just went to was like a playoff game and a half. Yeah. Incredibly physical, up and down, intense, emotional. And now they got to play on Friday. And I can't decide who that's more of a detriment to. My guess is the home crowd probably helps Indiana more. OK, see, I have my eye on Chet.

Because I really thought he looked wiped out in the fourth quarter. He was the one out of all the OKC guys that I thought looked like he was spent. SGA, maybe. I don't know. But maybe that's... But on the other side, Halliburton. I don't know. My guess is it's going to be kind of an ugly, dramatic game. And it will be decided by somebody weird. I like it.

I'm going Oklahoma City by four. I would pick OKC as well. OKC is favored by six. I would not do that. That's a lot. That's a lot of points. But I bet for Thunder, even Thunder playoff games, that's not very many points. I love this series and I don't care what the ratings are. And if casual fans don't care because famous people that they knew or famous franchises aren't in it. You know what? Why do we need them? The NBA just signed an 11-year media deal.

I'm fine. I love basketball. That game was awesome. I like that we have two new teams that are now in the fray. And I think this finals is a win. And guess what? Indiana is a really small city. And so is Oklahoma City. Shit happens. Well, the MVP is in this in the series, right? That should be a very famous player. You've taught you and Ryan talked about how he's maybe not one of the 10 most famous players. It's a little Mike Trout ish.

Okay. But he is the MVP. And no matter who the teams are, if it's a long series, the ratings will go up as the series goes on. So I, yeah, but I'll speak. Well, what was the last great finals? Great. The last great finals. 2013. No, 2016 has to be the baseline. Everything after that is Warriors, Raptors, Bubble.

Bucks Bucks Suns was a great finals it was just weird because the crowd weren't we still in like half yeah it was a little like half COVID that was a that's an underrated finals that was a really good finals

Yeah, that's a good call. All right. So Bucs on 16 Warriors Cavs. 13 Spurs Heat, I think, is the best finals of the last 15 years. Those two back to back. They're almost like Rocky 1 and Rocky 2. Like they should all be one movie. But Miami broke in the second finals. Yeah, but that's part of why it's like all one movie. And then 11 finals Mavs versus Heat. Great one. Tremendous. 2010 Lakers Celtics. Dramatic, but the basketball, I don't think was that great. Ugly.

I'm trying to think what else. Yeah, I think those are probably the best ones of the century.

0-5 Piston Spurs. The game seven was kind of a dud for a game seven. Ugly and ratings were nobody wanted. You know what was a good one was the 2000 Pacers Lakers series. That's a really fun series if you go back and look through those games. That's a great Kobe game. Game four when Shaq fouls out. All right, quickly. So you had, you were talking about Durant and you said watch out for the Clippers, which I had kind of heard rumblings of myself. And I think Durant's going to the Spurs. I'm just going to

slap it down a second time. I think that's how it plays out. For sure, the two teams that there's the most buzz about are the Spurs and the Wolves. Right. So the Wolves gets more complicated because... The Wolves one just breaks my brain. I don't know how it's going to work. Julius Randle and Nas Reed have to be involved somehow? You could do a Gobert one. You can do a Gobert plus DiVincenzo one. Why do the Suns want Gobert? I mean, Booker Gobert is something.

If you want to stay competitive because you don't have any control of your draft picks because you've ishpied all of them away. Would you take Vassell, 14, Harrison Barnes expiring, and a good first for Durant? Yes, I would. I don't even think... I don't know how... The biggest mystery in the league right now is how aggressive the Spurs are actually going to get. And I think that's code for...

They're going to start with no number two, no Castle, no Vassell, and negotiate from there, I think. That's what I would guess that they're going to do. Like two and Castle are just out. They should be. KD's 37 and he makes 50 a year and he's got one year left on his deal and he's been in the league for 18 years. There's the subplot I forgot to get into on my podcast. The two-year $112 million extension he could sign with his new team. A.K.A. the Jimmy Butler? Do you do the one extra or the two extra? Do the Suns...

A, is there a team that will trade for him not caring whether he signs it or not? Not even wanting him to sign it, maybe. B...

Well, the Suns just... The Suns, I assume, and I'm thinking, we'll just trade them wherever. Like, if this team's not on your list, too bad. We're trading you to whoever gives us the best package. There's no list anymore. I don't... I think after how they handled February, it seems like they're working with Rich Kline and KD's guy. It seems like they're being...

cooperative because the way they handled it in February was not the way things usually go in the NBA. What if the Toronto Raptors are just like, you know what, we're going to try for a Kawhi 2.0 moonshot. Here's the best package you're going to get. Katie doesn't want to go there. We don't even care if you sign the extension. You know who I don't want to deal with is a semi or unhappy Kevin Durant. Yeah. I'm just not messing with that. So, but like what,

He should go to the Spurs. That's how it's going to play out. Is he going to be happy with the Spurs just because he decides he wants to go there? Yes, here's the case for the Spurs. He went to the University of Texas. He loves Texas. He talks about it all the time. He's always respected the Spurs. He'll be like the respected veteran on that team. People in Texas like him. Like the only two places he's ever really fit in in a way where he loved the city was Texas and Seattle. He picked the Nets.

He picked the Nets, but he picked the team that was like the black sheep of the New York basketball scene. And he picked the Suns. Yeah. And he was 0 for 2 in happiness levels. And he was unhappy in Golden State at the end, too. He was unhappy the last year and a half for Golden State. Yeah. I think he would be happy on the Spurs. I hope so. I mean, Kevin Durant is an awesome, awesome basketball player. I love everything. If you're the Spurs and you can keep enough stuff left to also make a Giannis run, you're doing it.

And by the way, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Can they, is that even like, sure. They've given away, they gave some of their picks away, including the Minnesota pick in the Fox deal. People forget like De'Aaron Fox is like a, it's like they've, he's like a, we barely got to see it. Right. I didn't forget because it's weird. Cause they ended up with number two pick and guess what? I'm not sure they would have done the De'Aaron Fox trade if they knew that it happened. Well, I think they, cause Dylan, Dylan Harper and De'Aaron Fox, even though they're completely different players, they're,

Neither of them are great shooters. I don't know. They have to take Harper, it sounds like, but it's a little bit of a weird mix. Then you throw in Castle, too. I think it would be so fascinating to be in their meetings right now because Fox is late 20s. Wemba Nyamba is super young. The rest of the team is super young. Durant's 37.

How much of our, how much of our Wemby timeline are we actually willing to sacrifice for a guy who's, you know, closer to 40 than he is to 30? And how good in the West are we actually, that's what you have to look in the mirror and say, if we have like Fox, Durant, Wemba Nyama, let's say they even keep Vassell. Castle. Castle.

who's left on our bench? Like Sohan is maybe going out in that trade. Barnes is going out in that trade. Is Kelton Johnson going out in that trade? Are we actually a championship contender? Is Wemba Nyama already that good? Do we know enough about the Fox-Wemba Nyama fit that in the West... And can our number two pick play real minutes for us and help us right away? In the West, are we actually... Can we win three playoff series in the West? Well, that's why if you do the Durant thing, you're signing him for...

What you know, it's for at least two years would be my guess. I mean, I don't understand them. Do you want Durant on a two year, $112 million extension takes care of his body. But would you go to him and be like, Hey, no, I would want him. I would want him to take less because there was like two options, right? He could take one 24 as well.

As the 124 made me blink. That's he's got a he's got to wait, I think, a certain amount of time. He's got to wait six months and he could get that one. You know, I remember hearing stuff like, you know, as he as he and his people and the sons sort of negotiate his post Phoenix landing spot, which might be the this might be the last thing. Like this might be the last chapter of Kevin Durant's basketball comes home to Texas. He should really want to get it right.

Would he ever be like, you know, in this second apron era, team X, you're, you know, you're going to be coming up against it. Like I'll do two years, 60. I'll do like. Or maybe he just wants the one year because he wants to play in this goofy rival league that I talked about with Chuck Colston the other day. This, this F1 international basketball league that is, I think a little closer to actually being real than a lot of people. That's a big one. Give a credit for it. It's a big curve ball.

I don't think it's not a real thing. I did the, I liked it in the double knots now. So harder to aggregate me. I mean, let's just imagine. No, I'm not even going to do it. I'm not going to imagine. I'm going to, I'm just going to block that all the way back before I say, I'm just saying Durant taking less is a conversation I would want to have with him. Like, are you actually willing to do this to help us build out this team? Not saying you should. I brought this up because I'm saying that I think it's an idea that he's probably thought about himself.

Well, yeah. And also these guys have made staggering amounts of money on the court and off the court. And at some point, this is what Tom Brady did in the Patriots for the last 10 years he was there and he made the money back off the court. You mentioned the Clippers for him. And that's how this whole thing started because I had heard there was a little Clippers buzz.

I can't figure out how it works. There'd have to be a third team. That third team would have to be really excited about acquiring James Harden or Norm Powell and Bogdanovich together. I think he goes there to play with Harden, Durant. Okay. I think that's part of why...

the Clippers have at least thought about it. So from the Suns, like, I'm not... Is Zubat's in the deal? He's not? Okay, fuck off. And I think that's why, as I said, I think that's why the Clippers will not end up with Kevin Durant. Yeah. So can we just shut that down? Because Zubat's isn't going to be in the deal. I mean, I'm sure the Clippers would love to have Kevin Durant. Shut it down if you want. Are you going to actually trade something for him? Because you're not getting it for Norm Powell and Batum and Chris Dunn and Bogdanovich and a shitty pick. Fuck off. You have to really think that the Suns

would value the Clippers unprotected 2030 pick a Clippers unprotected 2031 swap and a Clippers unprotected 2032 pick. Like really just as the thunder have profited by betting against the Clippers long-term future, the sons think, well, those are the sons, the stupidest team in the 21st century since the mid two thousands next with draft picks. Like nobody has been more reckless and stupid than

with the concept of future picks, maybe since Ted Steepe in the 80s, that Bradley Beal trade and all the swaps and shit they did is some of the stupidest shit in the recent history of the league. So you're saying now that they would care about getting swaps with the Clippers? I think that there's no way. I just don't think they value draft picks. The Suns are going to have to look in the mirror and think, and like we traded...

Present talent, really good present day talent, and really good every pick we had to get Kevin Durant. Now we're trading Kevin Durant, and we're not going to be able to have the buffet of everything that we traded for him. We're going to have to choose...

on a sliding scale of salary relief, which is very important to us, draft picks, and win now talent because Devin Booker is still on our team. And we're just not going to check all those boxes to the degree that we want. They basically, they spent $10 million on a house that was worth seven. And now they have to sell it for five.

And that's it. And it was like, well, I should get 10. I paid 10. It's like, you're getting five. And look, that's how this is playing out. I'm, I have no idea what's going to happen with Devin Booker. I really do believe there is that from what I've heard that Devin Booker

really likes the idea of being a one-team player, like a Kobe for Phoenix. He's talked a lot about Kobe Bryant, what he means to him and all that. But if they come out of this trade with something that doesn't excite me for the next two or three years, like a player that I could be like, oh, that guy's fun to play with. And we know the Beal thing is not going anywhere. He won't be on. He's not a long-term part of the Phoenix Suns' future. I'm looking around if I'm Devin Booker-like.

is there a, is there a plan here of any, like what is happening? Like, and he's already talked about, you know, we were so close in the finals, not that long ago. And now what's happened to our team. And if you're Matt Ishbia, you have to look in the mirror and you wonder, wait, that's Isaiah Thomas standing right behind me. It doesn't even work for me. Oh, wait, he does. He's my conciliary for some reason, but we're all pretending he's not.

Boy, there's some good stories about that one. It's not great in Phoenix. Have you heard the stories about how he FaceTimes in the meetings? No. Yeah. Might have been a coach interview or two or more when he was on FaceTime in the meeting. Everybody say, Nick rocks. One, two, three. Nick rocks. One, two, three. Jordan Ott rocks. Jordan Ott does rock, by the way. He's going to be a good coach. I'm putting the odds.

I'm putting the odds on Giannis getting traded this summer at minus, not getting traded at like minus 400. That's a lot. I think he stays. That's a lot. I think he stays in Milwaukee and I think he wants to stay. They definitely wanted to stay. I think there's going to be less action than people think because then Garland got the toe surgery. So cross him out. I wouldn't have traded Garland anyway. Me neither.

I would if you gave me something incredible back for him. So Giannis, he's also had a couple tweets about getting back to the finals. I hope we get back to the finals the last couple of days. He had the interview where he talked about the Bucs getting back to the finals. I would still go not minus 400. I would go like minus 200 or so. Okay. Did you see his I miss Woj tweet? I thought that was weird. Yeah, that didn't really get where...

Does he feel like things are being misreported? I mean, I, I miss Woj, but I, I don't know. The insinuation from a tweet like that is things are getting misreported, which I actually agree with because he's never said anything other than he's going to be back in Milwaukee. And even when Shams did that weird media thing on that Monday where it's like, he's open to the possibility. It's like, did he ask for a trade? He didn't. So he's open to thinking about the future. Okay, cool. Who doesn't think about the future?

It's not a story. I don't know. It's a story. If he says Giannis went to the bucks today and said, I think I'm ready to be traded, but it, by all accounts, he hasn't said that. And by the way, if you're Giannis, I'm watching this Pacers team that is now two wins from the finals and has won 14 playoff games. And I'm like, we were right there with those dudes in round one.

Right. They lost in five, but they lost two of the stupidest games of the playoffs to them. Yeah. The only problem with that game, I'm just, I'm just saying they weren't far away. Round two, round three and round four. I get it. But I'm saying if I'm honest, talking myself into Milwaukee, whether it's salvageable, I'd be like, well, Eric, Eric name is, uh, it's talked about the gap year concept of the athletic and,

You know, it's an interesting concept. I just don't know. Is it a gap year? Like, how do you make it just one year when you have very little draft equity at all and not that many? You're saying, no, if Dame's out for the year. Yeah. Like, like, but how do you make it just one year? Like, how do you say, well, by 2026, 27, we're going to be ready to, ready to rock again. Like, so you don't think Kevin Porter and Giannis can be the new big two? And Kuz? Rejuvenated Kuz? Yeah.

taking the summer seriously. Didn't, oh, I have a question for you. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. A 1 a.m. question? Yeah. I didn't listen to the whole pod with Ryan yet, but someone told me today that you were, and I don't know if this is right, that's why I'm asking you, you were very confident that Philly is going to try to trade the number three pick. Is that person summarizing you inaccurately or? I am confident that

That they're exploring all options with the pick. Well, yeah. Whether they actually find a trade they like. But I think I think I'm pretty confident that they're at least I just think that's how Darryl has operated his entire career. They should. He's going to look at every possible option. And then if it makes the most sense to do three and Paul George for something or however they want to do it.

I think there's some really good dudes in this top five though. And when they start working out and talking to them, they're going to, my guess would be they'll fall in love with one of the guys and that'll be that. There's a guy, I've started to do my work. There's two guys that I think you're really going to dig. This edge cone. Yeah. I've watched them. I've watched them play it in the game we watched today and at least just athletically hung in. And then this Trey Johnson could be pretty exciting.

uh, as an offensive, he's six, four there. They have to decide Maxie McCain. If you're adding a third, like six, three to six, five guy to that, then what does that mean? Is McCain your six man? I mean, you could look at it on Grimes too. Like Grimes is something. Right. But I mean, you look at the Indiana model, it's like the more guards, the better, in my opinion.

Just the way basketball is going. But Indiana's guards are big and tough. Other than, you know, Halliburton is not like Halliburton skinny, but like he's still tall. Nembhard's tough. Matherin's tough. Have you changed your who's in the best situation for the next five years in the East answer? Now that we've gotten further along in the finals, because you did a thing with Waz after I talked to Ryan about it. I didn't. I said Indiana was one. You had Cleveland one. Ryan had Cleveland one. I think Waz had Cleveland one.

Look, if they win the championship, it's just you just win like you win all the polls. So, yes, if they win, I guess I would have to. I guess I would have to. There are two won in the finals. I thought you made I thought Ryan made a good case. I think was made a good or you and was both made the Cleveland case, I think, is the right answer because it's the only other can you have the most options with Moby Garland and Mitchell.

Even if it's not working out with those as your best three and Allen, they still have a lot of different things they could do. That would be why. But if Indiana wins the title. Yeah. If you win the title, you just win all the polls for a little while. That's all. And there, even if they don't win the title, I was, if Oklahoma city wins the next three games, Indiana has proven itself a championship caliber team. And then you have Boston a year ago. It's a Dallas. Wondering if this would be the first of a couple of titles. Now I'm,

Jalen Brown, shaving his meniscus. Jason Tatum, day 27 of Achilles rehab. Drew Holiday, Porzingis trade rumors. I don't know what happened. I mean, do we know what happened with Porzingis at all? Then we're in a hotel room in Indiana with you at one in the morning talking about Kevin Durant, if he likes Texas or not. What happened in my Celtics life?

I mean, we don't even know what happened to Porzingis. Still don't know. We'd love an answer on that at some point. Some sort of medical verdict. Did anything happen? The ultimate team... Look, we're getting a little groggy now, but the ultimate team, when you say, like, what happened? What happened to us? We're just looking around like, what? How did we get here? It's Sacramento. Just looking around like, how did we become the Bulls?

Like the mediocre bull, that's who we are now. But with Sabonis, how is this our team? Like Zach Levine makes how much? DeMar DeRozan's like around doing stuff. Malik Monk's our point guard. What happened? We had Halliburton? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, how did we get here? The beam team was so fun. God, I hated that trade for them. How did, what happened? I think I went, I haven't heard the pod editor about it, but I think I said,

I think I went all in on that one that I thought it was a massive mistake by them. Cause you know, when we are, we talk about stuff after thing and I'm like, I think this, I think that. And then occasionally it's like, I feel so strongly about this. I want to put some, can you put this down in pen? Um, I just couldn't believe they traded him. So let's go back to let's do now. We're really, by the way, the Sabonis thing, they got good value and it turned out it was a good trade for both sides. I get it, but I just, I just never ever would have traded him. Not a win-win.

The ultimate one, though, you put, and many people put their flag down most aggressively on was Gobert. And so it's interesting to think now, like, I still have no regrets on that one. I don't think you should. It is undeniable that they have gotten further as a franchise than they have ever gotten before two years in a row. And yet it still feels like, how? Like, they gave up so much to get in. But, like,

I will say this. The one thing I was definitely wrong about, and I remember saying this as a critique of the trade, was you do that trade when Anthony Edwards is like 24, 25, and he's close to hitting his prime. I think the thing they saw that I guess none of us saw was that he was way closer to being a top seven guy than I think we thought. And the really interesting thing about it was part of the reason that a lot of us didn't like that trade at first blush and even at second and third blush was

Well, it's just, you're just inevitably going to have to trade towns because the salary crunch is just, you're just not going to be able to have these guys. And he's the obvious guy. Like you're not obviously not going to trade ant. Oh man. We didn't talk about the real topic of the finals, the Knicks coaching search. The fact that the Knicks are back. Quinn, Quinn Snyder.

This whole thing where you just ask for permission for people who are under contract, I've never heard of such a thing. Let's go through. They did everybody but Steve Kerr and Spolstra. Quinn Snyder, Billy Donovan, Ime Odoka, Chris Finch. I think we're even missing one. Jason Kidd. Jason Kidd. That's the one I was missing. At this point, if you're a coach and they haven't, it's like, boy, do I suck? Like, why aren't the Knicks calling about me? Yeah, it has hit that point where you start to wonder, is it you? Yeah.

I don't know what they do. If I were them, I would just hire Taylor Jenkins. I thought he was a really good coach. And I think you could explain his lack of success in Memphis. I mean, he was successful, but... Can you say control Z on the Tibbs thing? Just like, hey! The papers aren't handed in yet. Hey, I saw the ad in the Times that you placed the message, the little letter in the Times. Really touching. Really, really tugged on my heartstrings. Yeah.

Is Taylor Jenkins, what was wrong with him? Nothing. I just think that if you're the New York Knicks and you've made the conference finals, you've fired your coach who's this 67-year-old veteran, whatever he is, coach, with a mandate to win the championship. I just don't think you're going to the guy who was in the little small market over here. I don't think James Dolan even knows who Taylor Jenkins is.

I think Taylor Jenkins is an awesome coach and he would be toward the top of my list if not at the top of it too. Because even he has the ready-made explanation of, yeah, things were going really well. And then crazy shit started happening with my star player. Oh, and Brandon Clark was my glue guy and he just kept getting season-ending injuries. I can't believe the name that I'm surprised hasn't come up as Vogel just because veteran coach, likable personality, New York area ties,

And I was talking to some people about that today. And the word retread came up like too much of a retread. I'm like, okay,

I think that's a little unfair to him because like Phoenix is just, I just think everyone gets a pass for getting fired in Phoenix. It's almost like a badge of honor. It's like the zoo caper in a zoo where the, where the, where the bears attacked the lion. And it's like, well, it was the zoo capers. Well, also they at least like made the playoffs and the Lakers, he wins a championship, gets fired at amid the rust disaster and

And like, you know, you know, I think Vogel's a good coach. Yeah. I mean, like, I just, I'm surprised that name hasn't come up. A lot of the dots make sense of just like veteran. How funny is it going to be when they hire Mike Woodson? I can't. You can't. You could. Not that funny to Knicks fans. I don't know. Would you bet your life that they wouldn't hire Mike Woodson? I wouldn't bet my life on anything Knicks related. They just called six coaches in 24 hours just for fun. Hey, Atlanta. Hey, Atlanta.

No, they were so competent. Also, like whoever gets the job has to keep the best player's dad on the team as an assistant coach. Not exactly like enticing. So I get to coach in the New York Fish Bowl. I'm expected to win a title. There's a weird coaching staff situation that, by the way, a lot of people are talking about underneath in the undergrounds. It's not great. Would you? Here's the question. If you were Leon Rose or whoever's making the calls, let's just say Leon Rose. Yeah.

Would you even have the guts, the gall, the audacity to call Pat Riley? Just to do it like, hey, we got to check the Spoe box. We got to see. Don't we have to see? Given Riley's history with it. I thought Spoe... Would you even do it just to do it? I housed throughout Spoe initially when this all started. I know, you screenshotted his text. I thought he seemed miserable last season. That was the only...

Only thing about it that made me pause for a second. See, I disagree with you on one level.

When they were losing, what did they have, like an eight or nine game losing streak at some point when it was all coming apart for them? And he, in one of the press conferences, said, you know, like, actually, I just, I love this. Like, I love that we have to get together as a group and dig out of this. He's not, that's not like supposed to be. He really loves like, well, not only did they not solve this problem, not only did not dig out, they had like an embarrassing exit. Yeah, it wasn't great.

The Cavs just traipsing all over Miami and Max Drews. So if I was Miami, I would all-time blow it up. I would trade BAM.

I wouldn't do the Harrow extension. I would trade Spoh to the Knicks. I would just completely blow it up. Spoh's getting, Spoh's getting. Yeah, I just, I completely blow it up. It seems like they're going to go the other way and like they're kicking the tires of Durant too. I was just imagining the most preposterous phone call possible is Leon Rose calling Pat Riley about Eric Spoh. That's the most preposterous thing. I'm really rooting for that to come out. Well, considering they've called everybody else, like, would you be shocked? I would be a little shocked.

We have to go. Cause now my head's starting to hurt. Um, so we're going to come back on Friday night on your podcast. Yeah. The Zach Lowe show. Uh, we're not going to be live, but we're going to come after game four. We do the exact same setup. Hopefully we figure out we'll learn from the kinks. We only had one stop and start this time around. Um, but, uh, we're going to do that and it'll be up on your YouTube channel as well. Um,

This will be on my YouTube channel. This will be a video podcast on Spotify as well. Hopefully, hopefully that everything works. Hopefully everything worked. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well for producing for us. And thanks to Zach Lowe. I'll see you. I'll see you in Indy tomorrow. But yeah, we're here. Game four. Real stakes. Love a great game four. What did we say? Magical or...

Calamity or Magical. Calamity or Magical. Got to work on that. That's every Pacers game. They've had five Calamity or Magical games in one playoff run. Was game one against the Knicks a Calamity or Magical? Magical. I'm going Magical across the board. What a great place this is. All right. I'll see you tomorrow in Indiana. Boom.

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