Graham Weaver: How to Scale Bright Spots, Overcome Limits, and Achieve Asymmetry | E141
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People probably hate when they hear people who've made a lot of money say this, but I would say 95% of the utility of money comes from not having to worry about money. I think a lot of times people are focused on stuff and status. That's really what they want money for. And again, sounds very cliche to say, those will not do very much for you for any long period of time at all. On the status part, no one gives a ****.

And on the stuff part, you know this. Anything you've ever bought, you get a little bit of a boost and then it goes away. So that really doesn't provide that much utility and maybe even negative utility in many cases. What I think provides the utility is the peace of mind of not having to worry about money.

You're listening to part two of my incredible interview with Graham Weaver, the founder and CEO of Alpine Investors, one of the highest performing and fastest growing private equity firms in the world. If you haven't yet listened to part one, be sure to check that one out first. Now, without further ado, here's part two with my incredible interview with Graham. So you started your own fund. What's your advice to investors?

the 28 year olds out there or the 25 year olds. We all know, and I'm sure there's people who may even leave your firm, they wanna get their own firm and they can grow it. And they want, a lot of them do it because they wanna grow it themselves. And a lot of them will do it for the money.

But it's the same way in the VC business. You want to start a fund. What if you don't know Tom Steyer? And what if you don't know somebody? What are the three things you should do to start a fund if you don't have relationships? You don't go to Stanford and you don't have friends that have money. Yeah. And to be clear, I didn't know Tom. I'd never met him before. But yeah. If they can't even pick somebody. Yeah. Same advice though. I think that the first part is...

So I'll use a real example for myself because I can talk in more detail about that. So let's say you were raising a first-time private equity fund to do buyouts. I talk about in sales, you first find your ideal customer. That's the first part. And that's huge. No matter what you're selling, you find the ideal customer. So if you're raising a first-time fund that's going to do industrials, for example...

Let's find all the people who do first-time funds and do industrials. I know it sounds simple, but probably 95% of investors you're going to call on are not even interested in first-time funds or industrials. So the effort put into creating a list of ideal customers is a way better use of energy than the effort

put in calling 100 people, 95 of which are not ideal. So that would be advice number one. And there are tons of investors that only do first-time funds or have allocations to first-time funds. And so today with AI, I mean, it's not going to be that hard to find out who those people are.

So that's kind of part one is get rid of the 95% figure and put all that energy on building as big a pipeline as you can to that 5%. Who's actually going to buy your thing. Second is I always say the second. So first is ideal customer. Second is irresistible offer. So, you know, and, and so what's your irresistible offer? Like if you sat on the other side of you and you were, and you were, you know, you had lots of funds to look at,

What would make you have to say yes? You know, what is that thing? And in my case, I had zero track record. My irresistible offer was conveying

my will to win and how my track record from the rest of my life and will to win was going to translate into running a private equity firm. That was my irresistible offer. It wasn't my track record of three label deals that didn't work out. It was my kind of what I was saying, my will to win, like I'm going to make this work come hell or high water. Here's the plan I have. That was kind of my irresistible offer. And then the last thing is you could just need lots of at-bats.

So those are the, I think that's the kind of three part simple formula really for selling anything. And almost anything will yield to that formula. So you said that first fund, I think you made eight investments, five lost money. The fund didn't make any money, but you're sitting in a room with Tom,

Overlooking Alcatraz. Right. One of the mistakes you made was you wrote a memo to the investors that it was impossible to lose money. Right. Now, that's not a very good memo to write. So what lessons did you learn with that memo? Well, the memo I wrote about impossible to lose money was because we bought three companies below their net asset value.

And that in my mind said, well, how could you lose money paying below net asset value? It turns out you can. And we did. So the first lesson was probably, you know, we were looking for, I was so inexperienced and so fearful that I was spending all my time trying to buy businesses where I was

not going to lose. You know, I was focused on not losing. And the magic that I've found subsequently is the opposite of that. Like looking for ways where if things go right, they go really, really, really right. So, you know, I use a term asymmetry in investing and you have, I'm sure see this all the time in venture capital too. I'm sure that's a huge part of it. But like, I don't want to invest in something that if it goes right is going to be a 3X deal.

You know, that's because I know they're not all going to go right and I need things that if they go right, they can be a 20x. Even in buyouts, I want to have deals that are like that. And in the early days, I was exactly flipped the opposite. I was looking at things that if they went right, maybe they were going to be a 2x, but I thought there was a really low chance they'd go wrong. And it was just based on fear. You know, it was just inexperience and fear. But yeah, losing money on that first fund was...

It was like now when we fundraise, the first fund is kind of a fun story to tell. It's like a footnote. People really like, they kind of like it. They're like, oh yeah, you know, most people had some hard things they overcame. But at the time, it was 11 years. You know, that wasn't like a footnote. That was 11 years that we had to work out that fund. And we had 11 years where we had longer than that, where we had that anchor hanging around our neck from losing money on that fund. So it was...

I definitely do not recommend, you know, having a lot, losing money on your first fund. It was really tough. Steven Romick is a good friend. FPA Capital, I think they managed $20 billion, maybe $22 billion these days.

He's been up for Morningstar Manager of the Decade before and I remember having lunch with him one day and he's in a suit and tie. I said, Steve, you look so nice. What's up? He said, oh, something stupid. I said, what's up? He said, yeah, I've been nominated for Morningstar Manager of the Decade. I said, wow, that's incredible, Steve. Congratulations. He said,

It's only a matter of time before I look like a fucking idiot again. And he meant it. Yeah. Right. So I think you have to be very humble and have humility as an investor. Absolutely. It really doesn't matter if you're private equity, venture capital, whatever the case may be. I think that's the real benefit of us losing money on the first fund was

We had to get better. Like we had to get a lot better. We had to have one of our core values of continuous improvement. You know, I started hiring executive coaches. I just had this belief that I, we needed to get better and that's never ended. You know, I think if our first fund had been like a good fund, we'd say, oh, we kind of know what we're doing. You know, we'll just keep doing that. And it was the opposite. We just, like we're right now, I mean, I'm 23 years into running Alpine.

We've had a really amazing run and

We're almost starting over. We're taking our firm down to the studs. We're really looking hard at our strategy, the way we're structuring our firm. I mean, we're not starting over, but we're looking at almost like I'm a day one CEO walking into Alpine. What would I do? How would I structure the firm, the investing team? How would I look at sourcing? I mean, we just have a real intense...

focus on getting better. And it came probably from losing money in the first fund. I think one of the interesting things that you did and will fund an entrepreneur for a second time

Even though they lost money on the first time, depending on how they handled the situation and communication. Yeah. So your two investors invested in your second fund again. They did. They liked you. They backed you, which is very hard to do. It was a $68 million fund. Yeah. And then you had several things happening during that fund. You had the dot-com explosion, which I was very fortunate and lucky to be a part of. And then you had Lehman Brothers blow up. Yep. And I think...

You had your first child right around that time. Yep. And you had spent the last dollar of that fund and you realized you needed to do something different. So you hired an executive coach. We're going to talk about the details of the lessons you learned, but why did you say I need to hire this guy, JP Flom? And because most people don't have the self-awareness and

would never hire an executive coach in a situation like that. Well, first at the time, I mean, in 2008 or 2009, the term executive coaching was actually pretty novel. People didn't know what that meant. I didn't know what that meant.

But as I talked to JP, who I was so lucky to be introduced to him, I was like, yeah, this is kind of basically another version of going back to the audio tapes. You know, I'm like, Hey, I'm, I'm going to just like really invest in my self-improvement and I can get better as a leader. And yeah,

And JP was just life-changing because he came from a background of talent assessment and executive coaching. So he was kind of the marriage of those two things. And it was absolutely life-changing because I really started to just completely shift my mindset. And you probably have heard me say this before, but like by the end of our engagement or even in the middle of our engagement, I remember writing on this

in my notebook, like I am in the talent business. Like that's actually the true business I'm in. Yes, I'm applying that to software companies or services businesses or private equity firm, but like the true business I'm in is a talent business.

So the realization of that, like at a cellular level was really powerful. And then, and then the application, the tactics of how to actually roll that out. That was what I, I got from him. And that was, that was absolutely transformative. I get lots of emails and I had lots of emails coming in. Oh, I'll give you some executive coaching. Most of these are kind of

Ridiculous. We talked about people who are teaching these lessons online, who have never managed a Starbucks before. How did you evaluate? First of all, how did you meet JP and then how did you evaluate? At what point did you realize, yeah, I trust that guy? Because at some point, it's a leap of faith. I had a number of meetings with him. And so, I met with him and I really liked him. He was a real magnetic person that was just

speaking a language that I understood and I could kind of like, I could understand how what he was pitching was really going to help me. But this is actually the story. The third time I met with him. So, uh,

I was with an analyst. I don't remember why, but I took him to lunch. So the three of us are at lunch and JP's like, all right, let's just do a, like, let's do an actual real thing here. Okay. I'm not going to explain this in theory. Let's actually do it. I said, okay, great. He said, tell me a problem you're having. I said, okay, I told him a problem. He said, okay, so it sounds like you're having this problem with the CEO and you need to deliver this really tough message to him. I said, yeah, that's exactly right. He said, okay, let's practice. Why don't you do it? I'll be him. I'll be the CEO. You be you.

Okay, deliver it. And I deliver it. And he said, okay, you got to amp it up a lot. You know, you were really kind of like, you weren't really getting your point. You know, I want to see a 10, you know, on a scale of one to 10, where you're being really direct and really harsh, give me a 10. And so I delivered it. In my mind, I was a 12. I was like, you know, just going at it. And I

And then JP said, okay, so how do you think you do? I said, I think I did really well. He turns to this analyst who's sitting here. He goes, scale one to 10. And the analyst goes, two. And then we worked on it and we worked it out. And I got to like probably an eight.

I delivered the message to the CEO like that afternoon and the CEO like absorbed it. And we made, we got through the thing and that, and I hired him, you know, cause I was like, okay, that was like, that was actually worth, you know, a price of probably your first X months of coaching right there, just with that exercise. So he, he, he, he, maybe I, he, that, that was why.

You know, I gave him a lot of credit for that. I still joke with him about it. Are you comfortable saying what he charged you? And then how did you think about return on investment? Oh, God. Yeah. I mean, he today could charge anything he wants. He's a big deal. Yeah. He could charge whatever he wants to charge and people would pay it. And he doesn't, I don't even think he does coaching anymore. But back then, you know, he was scrappy. And I think his normal fee for coaching

six months at the time was like,

Gosh, I might get these numbers wrong, but directionally, let's say it was like $150,000 or something, which is a lot for six months. It's a lot. We, by the way, didn't have management fees coming in because we hadn't raised the fund. It's the recession. So that's a lot of money anytime, but back then. So I think he cut it. He was feeling the recession too. So I think he gave me like a half price. So it was like $70,000, I think, which is still a ton of money for us at that time.

And so to this day, I don't really know what got me over it, but I guess it was going back to the Tony Robbins days where I just kind of like felt like I wanted to make an investment in myself and my self-improvement. So then I had an assignment with JP, life-changing. Really shortly after that, I had another coach named Tom Vakola who was completely – coaches like –

a word like leadership or something. I mean, it means tons of things to different people. So, the second coach I had, this guy Tom McColl and his wife, Frances Fuji, they taught lean manufacturing

Which is crazy because you wouldn't think a private equity firm would need lead manufacturing. But then that gave us practices like process mapping and continuous improvement, kind of the Kaizen process that we use. I mean, we've done, to this day, we've done like 130 Kaizen projects at Alpine. That's just been life-changing. So I just had some great coaches. Today, I have three. Yeah.

And I'm just, it's so fun. Like I just, I love learning things. I love getting better. We have 23 coaches now.

kind of on the Alpine platform. And I think we're doing like 500 coaching engagements right now across our portfolio. So it's just, I think it's just phenomenal. It's just like leaders being able to just invest in themselves. So talk about the three promises that

He instilled in you and then what are they and how do they work? So our three promises at Alpine, you mean? Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things we came up with is we came up with our three pillars, which is

be the number one performing private equity firm in the world as measured by net MOIC. That was one of our pillars. Tell people what net MOIC is. Net MOIC means an investor gives you $10 million, how much money you give them back. A lot of investors measure their performance on IRR, which is the rate of return that you're getting.

Rate of return kind of takes care of itself if you give them back a high number. But you can play around with the IRRs. You can give someone back 1.2 times their money in a really high IRR with, you know, it's just-- so we focus on net MOIC. So we want to be the number one performing fund in the world as measured by net MOIC.

We want to be the place where the best people want to work and spend their careers. And then we want to be a place that has social, where we're a force for social good. Those are our three promises that we make. And then if you look at pretty much every activity that we do falls into one of those three categories.

What was the main lesson that he taught you after when you were working with him all this time? With Tom? No, that JP. JP. Yeah, taught you. I mean, JP's biggest thing that he taught me was probably, I mean, a number of things, but we're in the talent business and then how to invest in talent was probably...

one of the biggest ones and then we just did - we would always do a practice of overcoming limiting beliefs. So, you'd throw out some incredible goal like a genie goal or something and then you get flooded with all these reasons you're not good enough, you're not going to do it and then we kind of like write all those down on a piece of paper and overcome them one by one and that was a really powerful way to go through that. So, a lot of people when they're analyzing a problem and how to get better,

They really don't - they think about how to fix all the things that we've gone wrong. Yeah. What's wrong with that? So, there's this awesome book by Dan and Chip Heath called Switch and they have a chapter in there called Scale Your Bright Spots.

That chapter has probably made Alpine more money than any other chapter in any other book I've ever read, including any, you could, all Warren Buffett's things. So basically what they say is the best strategic statement of all times is find what's working and do more of that. It's the simplest thing. It's better than, I've read 17 books on strategy. Those nine words, find what's working and do more of that.

is the best strategic statement that I've ever come across. So it applies to absolutely everything. So you have a great employee who's crushing it and doing amazing things. Find ways to give them more capacity, give them more resources, more capital, whatever. So find what's working and do more of that. We launched a CEO and training program. We had a couple people in there that were doing really well.

Okay, that's great. There's a bright spot there. We've scaled that. Here's some industries that have worked out really well for us. Let's find more that look like that. We had really a great luck with this one particular way of sourcing deals direct to founders. Let's just scale that. So it's just been, and it's just way more fun. You're focusing on your strengths. You're focusing on the things you're good at.

you're holding your best companies longer. It's the simplest way to run a firm. At what point should people...

Get an executive coach. Does everybody need one? And how do you find one if you have no idea where to go? I would say yes. And the reason I think everyone needs one is, I'll use myself as an example. Like I'm probably in the top 1% of the world in setting goals. You know, let's just say, I mean, I write them down, you know, I teach classes on it, you know, and I still...

love, I benefit tremendously from having a coach just create space to hold me accountable to setting and then looking at how I'm doing against my goals. Like, so it's like a personal trainer for your life. Like I don't need a personal trainer to go figure out what weights lift, but what if you had a personal trainer who's just making sure that you're on your life path? Like it, like there's, I don't think there's a better investment you could make. Serapists do that though.

Therapists a lot of times are looking backwards. I mean, this is the simplest way people define the difference between a coach and a therapist. And I don't, it's a blunt way to describe it, but therapists are going to want to know like, Hey, tell me about mom and dad and all that. Coaches are looking forward. Where do you want to go? Where do you want to be? What's your goals? What's your dream? What's your vision? What's your path? And I think,

And so it's a personal trainer for like you being on your life path. I mean, I think everyone should have one. The other thing is you activate different parts of your brain when you talk than when you write or you think. So you have someone here that you're talking and you're activating, you know, your energy to go in the direction you want to go. So I think coaching is incredible. In terms of how to find them, I mean, there's a whole bunch of platforms that you could look at online. I don't know that I have a great...

algorithm for that. But there's International Coaching Federation, there's BetterUp, there's Tony Robbins Coaching, there's Coactive Coaching. Those are all resources that you could give to your listeners. And then you do like a trial with a number of coaches and see how, you know, if there's a fit because you really definitely want to have a good figure with the coach. Most people listening to this show cannot afford a coach. Yeah.

So what do you do if you can't afford one? I would say find one of your really close friends that shares your passion for personal improvement and coach each other. So I did this with my roommate in business school. I had a, my roommate and I, we used to get together and we would build

basically coach each other. You know, we'd spend 30 minutes, we go on a walk and spend 30 or 45 minutes talking about him and we turn around, spend 30 or 40 minutes talking about me. So you can just do this with a really close friend and then the magic of that is you'll have...

You'll actually, your friend will know you really well and you'll also create a really deep friendship with that person. Many people in the private equity business go into it because not only are they interested in it, but they go in for the money. Yeah. Like we all know you read the 4400 and I don't know how many private equity people are on, but I'm guessing 10% or more in the private equity. And I've had some of those people on my show who have been great. The way to make money in the private equity business on something called carried interest. Yeah. Yeah.

You were making $100,000 for the first 14 years of your business, which is crazy, right? Net of tax and you're married and I don't know, is that $70,000 after tax? Yeah. And you got a family and you started making a carried interest finally in your third fund and you were depressed. Yeah.

Right. Why? That doesn't make sense. Yeah. And you stopped drinking as well. Yeah. It's a good question. Like, I think what happened is I think I realized at that time I'd been driving for so long, you know, starting when I was 12, mowing lawns, all the wrestling and starving myself, getting into college, getting grades in college, Wall Street, raising a fund.

you know, x 14 years of plowing through and then I had this financial event. We sold our last company in our second fund and that created this big carried interest check and I saw the money go in my bank account and then I just thought "oh,

I thought that was going to feel different. Wait a sec. You know, I thought, I thought that would feel different and it was really exciting for a couple of days. And then I just had this big letdown and I, I don't mean it to sound like, oh, you know, I mean, I'm very grateful that I was able to have financial security issues.

It wasn't like I could never work against money. It was money that I could exhale a little bit but I just thought it would feel different. You know, I thought I'd been working all this time to have this outcome and you know what? I was still - it was still me. I was still there and I had still had all the same demons and same problems and it didn't make all that go away and so it was

It was hard. You know, I felt like I'd worked for probably 25 years, 27 years or something like that to get to this point. And I just thought it would, I thought it'd feel different. So yeah, I actually was clinically depressed. Like I had a hard time getting out of bed. I felt just tired all the time. I was in a bad mood all the time. And it was probably actually one of the lowest points of my life. How did you come out of it? So...

I, little by little, so I started doing a lot of research on depression because I think I took like a survey or something online, I don't remember, and I answered all these questions. It's like, yeah, you might have depression. And so I started doing a lot of research online.

And then I started looking up like - like it was some basic stuff. Well, first I went on antidepressants and then I - but I fired all kinds of bullets. So, I saw, you know, alcohol was really highly correlated depression as you would imagine. I weaned myself off alcohol. Did you have a drinking problem or you -

I don't know that I had a drinking problem, but I drank most nights. I think it interfered with my sleep more than I realized. I wouldn't say I wasn't by any stretch, you know, had a drinking problem, but it was definitely just not serving me. So, and if you go...

you know, Google depression, it's like on every single list was alcohol. It's a depressant, you know? So, I cut alcohol out of my diet. I got my food, believe it or not, food allergies showed up a bunch on those lists. So, I got my food allergies tested. I had a severe intolerance to gluten, which was probably 60% of my calories at the time I gave up gluten.

I stopped having sleeping pills, which I needed because of the alcohol. I started just eating way healthier. I started working out a lot more. And it didn't all happen at once, but little by little, I started to realize a lot of it was just daily habits. And so I started talking to therapists. And so little by little started doing that. I weaned myself off antidepressants.

and, and, and haven't looked back. So I, I still have all those, all those habits. You know, I still, I still don't, you know, don't drink, don't eat gluten, don't have sleeping pills. Someone told me a long time ago that if someone tells you they're not interested in money, they're full of shit. So what part of making money was a motivator for you in starting this fund? And what's your advice to people who are motivated by money as a number one

Well, I think you go through a phase of money. The first phase is like survival, right? Can you pay your rent and can you actually pay your car payment and pay rent? Yeah.

And I never, to be fair, like I was never really up against that. Like I saved money starting in college with this business. I saved money when I was on Wall Street. So I was never up against it where I'm like,

I don't think I'm going to make rent this month. So I've been very lucky that I haven't been there. But then it's like, okay, can I pay my mortgage? Can I put my kids through college? You know, I have obligations now to family and that. So the first kind of bar is like just survival. And that was probably the most intense desire to make money was like just literally survival. Then I think the next bar is probably,

financial security of just kind of like being able to exhale and maybe slightly above that is you just don't worry about money. You're not thinking about it. And I would say like, if I'm being like, I know people probably hate when they hear people who've made a lot of money say this, but I would say 95% of the utility of money comes from not having to worry about money.

that I've experienced. I mean, I have more recently in the last couple of years, I bought a nice house, but I never drove a nice car until I was like in my late 40s.

Like it was never about the stuff. I think I realized, yeah, 95% of maybe even higher than that is just not having to stress about money. And I don't mean like just the car payments and things, but more like, oh, I have to change a flight or, you know, my car breaks down. Just like literally like not spending any emotional energy stressed about money is...

And you can actually get there without too much money and more it has more to do with your expenses actually than your your income What's your advice to people who are motivated by money a lot of people I bet if you took an anonymous poll Yeah, all the employees that people are super motivated. Yeah, you know I bet money would be number one on 90% I think if like if if I sat down with someone for an hour or so and like we we actually we actually said okay, I

Let's say they were nice enough to be honest about the fact that they were motivated by money, okay? Anonymous poll. Yeah. And I'd say, okay, like, let's talk about it. Like, what is it about this that you're really excited about? Oh, because I want to have a cool car. Okay, great. So how much is that going to take? Oh, I want to have a nice house. Okay, great. But I think a lot of times people are focused on stuff and status rather

That's really what they want money for. And those are both sometimes related in their head. Like if I have a house, if I have a car or a watch or whatever. So stuff and status is where like their energy is going.

And again, sounds very cliche to say, those will not do very much for you for any long period of time at all. On the status part, no one gives a shit. Right. And on the stuff part, you know this, anything you've ever bought, you get a little bit of a boost and then it goes away. So, stuff and status, like if people actually understood that

That really doesn't provide that much utility and maybe even negative utility in many cases. What I think provides the utility is the peace of mind of not having to worry about money. So if you could shift someone's mindset to be like, you can still be really fired up about money, but maybe you're fired up because you could help people that you care about or you don't have to worry about it and stress about it. And focusing on that, I think would make you a lot happier. It would also shift...

How much money you need, how much money you spend. And I think it'd be way healthier. Most people, including me, including mentees and even my friends, we talk about this all the time, have had, and it shifts over time as you get older and you have family and homes and other things, a financial goal of how much money you want to have. Did you have one at a young age? What was it?

Has it changed? And what is it now? Yeah. I mean, I'm really putting you on the spot. It's fine. I mean, I'm going to go there. So, I think in the early, early days, it was probably like a million dollars. That was mine. That seemed like all the money in the world. I mean, and that, I mean, I couldn't even imagine what that would be like. And so, that was probably my goal from like being really young till now.

I don't even know, in my, well into my 30s maybe even or, you know, it was like a million dollars. And then I shifted and I said, okay, if I had $20 million in the bank earning like in treasuries, I could live off the treasury income and I would have that like security blanket and I'd never have to

Then anything else that happened, I'd be fine. Like if I kept my lifestyle in check. So that was kind of my next goal, but not like wrapped. How old were you when you had that? That was probably like, you know, late, probably in the early forties. I was like, okay, that, and then that was kind of like my, to use the term kind of fuck you money. Like I'd never have to worry about anything again.

presuming I didn't increase my living expenses too big. And I thought that was a great goal because I felt like, and I did achieve that goal. And then once that happened, I felt like at that point I'm playing with the house's money. And I actually became a better investor. I think I've made better decisions.

And I haven't reset another goal. So I have like the 98% of my wealth is in Alpine, my business in private investments. And I love having it there. I feel really good about it. And so I get to be that voice of,

let's do what's right for investors and then let's find liquidity for the people in my firm or the people in the management team. Let's do that separately. Maybe we raise a separate round to get them secondary money. But I'm not personally making a poor decision because I'm

of my own financial needs or my situation. I've hit my goal and so I can now just do what's best for my investors or the firm, which in many cases is hold these companies for a really, really long period of time. My mom told me a long time ago, don't count other people's money, but obviously you've made more than $20 million in your lifetime and you're going to continue as your firm grows. It's exponential actually, right? It is. You get...

You're probably the biggest shareholder in your firm at this point. And we all know what the top performing private equity firms make. And some of the best firms, you know, some of, if you just look at those firms who've gone public, you got founders making a hundred million dollars a year. Yeah. And so how do you think about money? And as a dad, having all that money and your children and raising your children in a normal, humble environment. On the making money part and how I think about it, I think about it as, you

I honestly think about my goal is to be the number one performing private equity fund in the world and that's the scorecard I have.

there will be lots of financial gains that come with that. But the absolute North Star is our net MOIC performance at Alpine, which runs counter actually to making more money because we could charge more carry than we do. We could take liquidity earlier and raise more. There's a lot of things we could do, but I want to be the number one performing fund in the world. And that's the North Star

To be honest, and then with the kids, it actually worked out really interestingly. I never planned this but

My kids had almost the exact same situation that I had as a kid where their dad started a business when they were born, you know, didn't make money, you know, drove, you know, worked really hard. They saw the grind. They saw it start with nothing where they would come to like an Alpine event and there'd be the whole firm was seven people. And then they've watched it kind of grow and they've seen all the work that went into that. And I think...

I gave them that. They absorb that. That's how they're showing up in their life.

And I love that for them. It's almost the same thing that I had with my dad. So my kids are really driven. They're getting up at 5 a.m. and going on runs when no one's looking. They're doing those things. And I never told them to do that. They just, they're doing those things, all three of them. I honestly am not exactly sure how we're going to structure giving them money or if we're doing like a charity trust or, you know, I have...

you'd think I would have that all figured out. I don't have a great answer for you yet on that. - When I was young and I didn't have money, I'd go into the Porsche dealership every year, and I'm sorry if I'm repeating the story for those people who listen to the show.

But I sit in the Porsche every year. It's a one day I'm going to buy this, this Porsche. And when I finally, our company went public and I had the opportunity to do it, it took me a year to buy the Porsche. And like you said, at some point, you know, the Auro wears off. I felt guilty. It was $107,000. I still have it today, 22 years later. Oh, that's awesome. That's 57,000 miles. First day I,

Took it home, Graham. I washed the car. Like, oh, this is going to be great. And I dropped the bucket on the car. I filled the water, but it still has a little quarter-sized ring on the car. But I bought the Porsche. I bought my dream home. And I treat myself to nice art, which has become an investment more than anything else.

What is the nicest thing you've bought yourself? Are there any extravagances that you said, buying a plane or a Ferrari? I mean, yes. Up until two years ago, my answer would have been like, I just spend money to save time. So I have...

I have administrative assistant, I have accountants, you know, things that I just take all the stuff I don't want to do and I do none of it and that is the best extravagance. Okay, but then two years ago, I had this one label company that I bought during business school, the very last one I bought and we got very lucky. We had Trader Joe's as a customer and it grew. I held the business for 21 years and we sold it in 2022

And it was on a net investment. It was the best investment I ever made because I put in a tiny amount of money and it became a really big business. So we sold it in 2022. I wasn't counting on it. I wouldn't say I forgot about it, but it was kind of like not part of my daily planning. And so I had this big amount of money come in from that sale and I used that to buy a house in Hawaii. So that was my...

That was my one kind of extravagance. And I love it. I love having... I don't think I'm going to buy any more houses because it's a lot of work and it's, you know, you can rent. You don't have to own. But I have a really sweet house in Hawaii. Where in Hawaii? It's in Maui. Nice. Yeah. And I really do enjoy it. And I do feel really proud when I'm in it. And it makes me really happy. So that's my big extravagance. But that, I mean, I was...

50 years old when I did that. But it has been kind of nice. I always said I'm never going to own a second home because, like you said, it's a lot of work. It's expensive. And thankfully, we have the money where we can go where we want. And I didn't want to feel tied down. And then we went up to Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. And then we saw this incredible house. And we bought the house. And it's been the best thing we've ever done as a family. Yeah, exactly. Because I have younger kids. I have three kids from a previous marriage. They all want to go.

And it's just been the best that we've done. You nailed it. And exactly like, you know, my kids are now, I have two kids in college and I'm

you know, during spring break, they want to go to Hawaii and they bring their friends and their girlfriend. And so, that's been awesome is just keep, you know, keeping having the family together. So, that's been really, really nice. Yeah. You could probably tell from just talking about it, I feel kind of guilty about it for some reason, but it has been really nice. You know, I felt guilty about my house as well. And this may seem so weird and I know and people are going to

write in on this and it's going to be a weird concept, but we live in a beautiful home here, but a lot of our friends also have beautiful homes. We have friends who live month to month, but our kids go to school. You're friends with the parents. We live in Brentwood, California. Homes are very, very expensive. And so it's normal to have a nice house. Maybe not as nice as ours, but there's a lot of very, very nice homes. When I bought my second home,

And I'm sitting up there and we have a beautiful view of the lake and I just, I feel at peace there. I never want to leave and I don't want to work while I'm there, but I have my summer intern program. It's summer only, but it's, this is going to sound so weird. It's the only place where I really thought and I felt successful. Wow. Yeah. I mean, wow. Yeah. That's weird. That's really cool. Thanks for sharing that. Let's talk about the word asymmetry. Yeah. Which you've used already. Yeah.

And you said that there are four things you can do to have a great life. Yep. And when I read this, I thought, I've never heard anything like this before. It actually, you know, one of the things about having great guests on the show, like we talked about before, I get to meet lots of people and I like to take things from

each show, but this one was like, holy shit. That's amazing. So talk about the four. These are things that I'm going to do and I'm going to adopt and I've written them down. Well, thanks for that compliment. So the concept was what we were talking about before about investing, where you want to play for the upside, not protect the downside. And so I kind of thought about my life as I started to uncover that for investing, I started to realize

I was doing the same thing in my life. I was playing small, I was playing not to lose. And so, I started to kind of think about what were the principles that if you stack them on top of each other would lead to a wildly asymmetric life just like principles of investing would lead to wildly asymmetric investments. So, the first one was do hard things and that is I think - they're all really important but the do hard things probably comes first.

because I had this expression that everything you want in life is on the other side of worse first. So, if you really think about, you know, you want a better body, okay, it's going to get worse first. You're going to go to the gym, you're going to have a diet you might not like as much as the old diet. You know, if you want, you know, to do better at your job, you know, you're going to have to work a little bit more, you're going to have to study harder, you know. Everything that you want is on the other side of doing something you don't want first.

Um, and, and so when I, when I cut weight wrestling, I started, I just realized I had a very, very high capacity to do hard things, which has been good. So that's, that's kind of principle one, uh, principle two is, uh, do your thing. And the idea there is that if you are doing something that you're doing because you think, you know, it's the, you know, that it's going to make you money or it's going to, um,

it's a thing that your friends are going to be impressed by or your parents, or it's the thing you're supposed to do. Like you're, you're not, you're not going to stay with that for a long period of time. So you talk about, yeah, people could do investment banking for a couple of years, but like, like if you, you want to align, I said this earlier, you want to align your soul with your day, you know? And if, if the, when those things are happening, you're,

unstoppable. When you're doing something that you really want to be doing and you're going to do it for a long period of time, you're going to work early and late. And so like you're not going to do that doing someone else's thing. So find out what your thing is and get on a path to doing that. Like I don't think there's any almost any exceptions to that. Now it doesn't mean you can do it tomorrow. Maybe you have some financial things you have to sort out in your current thing, but get on that path at this sometime in your lifetime.

Number three is do it for decades. And this is kind of like just the power of compounding over time. You know, I'm in my 23rd year running Alpine. Like I'm pretty good at running a private equity firm at this point. You know, we've done 600 deals. I've hired a lot of people. I've hired a lot of CEOs. I've seen a lot of industries. I've tried everything you can imagine. I'm trying new stuff. I've had new coaches like...

I'm better in year 23 than I was in year 22 and 21. And so, you know, that gets asymmetric over time too. You just get, you get so much better. So you do things over a long period of time. I mean, if I, I think if I stopped Alpine in year 14, it got, it got kind of asymmetric, you know, the longer I, I stayed with it. So do it for decades. And the last one is write your story. And this is really the

maybe even the predecessor of this, but like you get one life. So like take the time to really step back and think about, um, if you know, what, what, what is the, what is the picture you want to paint? What is the life that you want to have? Um, and, and imagine, imagine it as though you could have anything that you wanted and get as clear as you can on that. Cause that's the hardest part,

Bringing that to fruition is usually just kind of working backwards. And then I like to say, you know, almost any goal that you can set, you can work backwards and create an endogenous set of activities that will yield that goal over a long enough period of time.

But most people don't know exactly what they want. So that's the fourth one is write your story. And for write your story, you're talking about a five-year story. Yeah, a five-year story. Like what's nirvana? What would you do if you knew you wouldn't fail? And what would you do if you knew you didn't fail in your relationships, your career, your body, spirituality, you know, in your friendships, you know, in all those areas. Like what do you want, you know, and take the time to really explore that, which is the thing I do a lot with my executive coaches.

You made an Instagram post, I don't know, a few months ago that said, I read every self-help book in the world. And these are the four or five things that you need to do. And one of them was to, I'm going to summarize and I'm not going to get it right, but maybe you can fill in the details. But it was get a notepad out, make a five-year goal and write. And you did this in college, essentially. It's where it began. And write your goals down.

high goals, not those that you think you're going to hit and write three things down every day that you did to achieve those goals. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that's genius. It's so simple. Yeah. And like what I would also say is like if you really look at successful people, I think

The most underrated thing is like the tediousness of being successful. Like it's tedious. It's like having a great body is tedious, you know? It's reps in the gym. It's hours, you know, running. It's, you know, it's not hard. It's just tedious, you know? And achieving a goal is,

It's not difficult. It's tedious. It's daily writing it down, writing the three things you want to do toward that goal down and then doing those things and then getting up tomorrow and doing it again. Like, and I think people mistake, they think it's going to be these big sweeping motions because they hear about that, but they don't realize that there was 25 years of work that went into whatever that outcome was. And those 25 years are tedious.

Right. I think one of the things too, I mean, we have a summer intern program. They work on tedious things. We work on Sandy, which is getting data points. We have built, we've built the largest beach database in the world for the $5 trillion a year beach tour as a business. There's nothing like it. We've cataloged 100 categories of data from now more than 140,000 beaches in 212 countries.

and it's a lot of work. It's manual work. Is there a bathroom there? What's the cell service there? These are things that people want to know before they visit the beach, and that's

One use case is for people going to the beach and planning a beach vacation. The average person, before they plan a beach vacation, looks at 38 different websites before they visit there. So we're trying to cut all that down and really put everything on one beach page. But that includes pictures of beaches. And it's laborious to get the licenses and make sure we have the right licenses for the photos. We have drone videos. Now I think of, I don't know.

20,000 beaches as well that we've manually got on YouTube. We put the link back to YouTube on this. People want to really see video of it. We've compiled now a list of every shark attack in the last 100 years. We're about to launch a shark map as well. We've done some really, really cool things. I love it. And we have all these interns come in, right? And we tell them before the summer, said, you're going to be doing shit work the whole summer. What you're doing is beneath your intelligence level.

Because we've got kids from Stanford and Harvard and all the best schools, but we also have kids from San Diego State or a firm like – calls like Biola, which I don't know. Do you know Biola? I do not know. Okay. Most people don't. So it's a small Catholic school outside of Los Angeles. That's where Matt Hickerson goes, his best intern we've ever had and best –

right hand that I've had as well. But it's like these kids don't want to do it. And throughout the summer, I said, you're going to get bored. You're going to complain. I said, complaining is a cancer. I better not hear one complain and we're going to have a gnarly meeting in my office. But what I tell the kids is,

I'm doing the same work. I'm sending my team emails. Hey, why don't we have a photo here? Is this really a nude beach? Is this really a gay beach? Try to find it. I'm doing the work too. I'm uploading photos onto our website. And that's the thing. It's tedious, hard work. I mean, everyone wants to sell a company for a billion dollars to build a huge, huge fund. And we've seen today it's different than when we...

start a company, you're in a highly competitive business. So, you're getting the best of the best. I'm not saying that we're not getting the best of the best but the work ethic today and what the expectations are in a world where everyone's making gobs of money. Oh, totally. Yeah. It's just a different game. Yeah. But I love that story. I hope everyone who your listeners really understand what you were just saying about the tediousness. I mean,

- my favorite quote of all time is Michelangelo, he says "if people know how hard I work to gain my mastery, it wouldn't seem so wonderful". And I think it's like teaching at Stanford is - it's like each class is meticulously planned minute by minute who I'm going to call on. In some cases, the exact characters I'm going to assume and I mean, it's like - it's just

Like we talked about it in the green room preparation and it's tedious. You know, we just had an offsite yesterday and I was telling Audrey before we were meeting here.

I think I wrote - I was involved in just about every single PowerPoint slide that was shown over the entire you know, two-day period. You know, just how many minutes are we going to give for this exercise? You know, is this flowing right? I mean, it's just - yeah, it's tedious.

Let's talk about preparation for a minute because it's one of the things that's been the hallmark of my success. And I'm teaching something. I'm giving talks at colleges. I'm going to be doing some paid public speaking. I'm writing a book on preparation, extreme preparation. So how important has extreme preparation been to your success? That means out preparing everybody. I think it's been the characteristic. I mean, if I go back to high school grades, I mean...

I would have a geometry test.

the teacher would say, "Hey, here's the last eight geometry tests." I would do every problem on all eight, understanding it, you know. And you know, if I - you know, we had for rowing, I put in probably on average an extra hour a day at least on the rowing machine. My classes, I meticulously prepare for. The speech that you were referencing about an asymmetric life probably took

six months to write that. And, you know, there were four principles, but we started off with like 12, you know, and had to test them and see, you know, and so I think it's a superpower. It can also be, sometimes can be a negative because sometimes it keeps me from

uh, engaging in things where I don't have that ability to prepare for it. So I might just say no to something where, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to be as prepared. So I think there is a negative side to that. I, you know, like you, it sounds like I'm a perfectionist, so that, that can be a negative, but in general over preparation has been, has been a real key tool, but

even more than that, it's like when I'm over prepared, I'm really confident too. So, I think I just show up differently knowing that I did the work, you know, I'm ready for the speech or I'm ready for the class and I know the material. So, that helps a lot too. Less anxious, you're doing the reps. Yeah, exactly. It's really helped me a tremendous amount as well. I mean, you were Phi Beta Kappa in college and for those people who don't know, it's

It basically means you're graduating the top 2% of your class. And for me, it was because I outworked everybody. I don't consider myself the smartest person in the room. And I tell people, if you're the smartest person in the room, you're probably in the wrong room. But if I have to go back and look at all those semesters in college, maybe there were five or eight tests where I knew I may not get an A. I got one B plus in college. First semester, I was pissed.

But it was really something you can control the outcome of. And I also think that's true of work ethic as well. So what's your advice to people who don't want to get there at five o'clock in the morning? Can you be successful if you work on average like everybody else? I don't. I mean, I think if, you know, it's funny, I have a hard time giving advice that I don't follow myself. So

I can only share what's worked for me, you know? And what's worked for me is like if I'm gonna take something on, you know, I'm gonna have a bar of wanting to be the best in the world at that particular thing and I'm going to put in the work to do that and that's really invigorating for me. And so, you know, it's hard for me to give advice to someone to say, "Hey, you know what? Why don't you just try to be average at that?"

And that's going to be fine. Now, if that's someone else's own you know, kind of compass and that's where they are then you know, I guess they can show up however they want but you know, I've just found a lot more joy in trying to like throw yourself into things thousand percent.

So you work at a sexy, you started a sexy firm, right? Private equity. And again, we talked about money and I think there's a traditional path, which is banking, investment banking. And most bankers I know want to go into private equity. It's not as harsh in terms of the time commitment, the hours and the weekends, although it doesn't mean that you don't work hard. How does someone get a job at Alpine?

And would you hire and do you hire students from lesser known colleges that don't have straight A's and maybe have a 3.2 grade point average? Yeah. So I think like what we're trying to do, we hire say 12 summer interns to do investing. And what we're really just trying to do is find the highest yield that we can have. You know, we want all 12 to be successful. We want all 12 to work out.

We have found it to be very highly correlated, you know, the undergraduate grades and performance has been really correlated to doing well in the job and it probably is less about the grades themselves

and more about the work ethic that went into the grades, more about the preparation and things that went into that. So we've found that for better or for worse to be really highly correlated. So, you know, we're not, you know, we're typically indexing on grades when we're, you know, making those hires.

What's the best interview question that someone has asked you in your 23 years? My favorite, I'm going to steal two questions that, my all-time favorite question probably is Peter Thiel's question, which is what's something you believe that not that many people agree with you on? I think that's a great question. And then Elon Musk has a question he asked, which is something like,

You know, what's the most difficult problem you've ever had to solve and how did you solve it? I think those are great questions. Yeah, I think you'd learn a lot about people with those two. I read one and I love this question and again, I teach this one which is, what are the three things that I can do after six months that would help me be successful and add value to your firm? Oh, I love that.

That's a, oh, you're saying what would someone ask me? That's a student asking you. Yeah, sorry, I thought you meant what was I asking them. Well, okay, so let's turn around. So what's the best question someone has asked you that you've said, holy cow, that's a great question. Yeah, probably similar to what you just said. Something about like, what are the attributes that I would have, or how would I be showing up that I would be the best analyst that's ever come at this firm? Give me the playbook, tell me what to do. What would that look like?

And they actually are really intent on wanting to know. They're not saying that because they heard they were supposed to, but you can tell they actually want to be the best analyst that we've ever hired. And they're asking me for that formula. One of the mistakes I think people make, and again, this is something that I think people should really think of when they're interviewing for a job, I, I, I, me, not value add, value add, value add.

Do you see that as well where in the interviews people are just saying, "I'm great for this role because I'm this, I'm this, I'm this," as opposed to how it can add value to your firm? I don't know that I could count on maybe one hand the number of conversations I've had where someone has talked about adding value to my firm. So yeah, I think that's really, really rare and I think it would be a really refreshing conversation if I were to have that for sure.

So if someone from a lesser-ranked school sends you this incredible analysis of a company where you say, holy cow, this person has done a 40-page presentation. He or she has a 3.0 grade point average. They've really mapped out everything that you could ever imagine. And they said, not only can I do this, but here are the ways that I can add value to your firm. And...

I'll work for free for six months. You don't have to pay me. And after six months, if I've done good things, then you put me on the payroll. That'd be super compelling. I love it. It's a great pitch. That'd be really, really compelling. I love it. Let's talk about something that you said as well that really hit home with me in being successful is time management.

And I thought what you said about that was really profound and I hadn't really thought about it in the way that you said it. I think about it, think about all the clutter that comes on my desk. I think about, gosh, I'm spending so much time on these worthless emails. What's your view on time management and what should people be doing and focusing on during their day? So I think the best formula that I've come up with for time management goes back to you knowing really clearly what your top goals are.

and then putting time on your calendar to work on those goals. So, you know, my three goals are one, two, three. Here are the activities I need to do to hit one and two and three and then scheduling those blocks on your calendar and work, you know, using your calendar to work on your things that are moving you to where you want to go. Email, if you think about it, is really

what everyone else wants from you. It's people telling you all the things they need from you. And so, if you find yourself reacting to emails, there's almost a 0% chance that that's moving you toward your goals. It's moving you maybe toward other people's goals. And certainly, you have to return emails, but I think that needs to fit in around you really blocking the time on the things you want to do. Right. So, as part of your advice and summarizing all of those

five-year goals and writing three things down each day. I bought a Lucite frame, 8x10. I'm going to put it in the frame. And in my notebook, I'm also going to put down in each of the three things I did each day, how long each one took. I love that. And I'm also going to...

put down how much of my time was devoted to emails or things that had no value to the success of those goals. Yeah. A lot of times, a lot of times, like I'll coach one of our CEOs and

And the CEO knows that we say we're in the talent business, they know how much I care about talent. So, I'll coach one of the CEOs and I'll say, "Well, if you had to guess, what percent of your time do you think you're spending on building a great team and building talent?" And they'll say, "Oh, a lot of my time, I'm spending a lot." I'm like, "Why don't you pull out your calendar?"

And let's go look at the last two months and look at how much time you spent on building a great team. And they look at me like their face turns white because the answer is they're like, oh, well, HR does that. And okay, well, you just said your top priority.

is building a great team and talent and yet if I look at the last two months of your calendar, you spent no time on it. "Yeah, but I had to do this and we had this customer and we had that" and like that's what I'm talking about. It's like you have to like take your top priorities and really align your schedule

Stephen Covey has this great matrix where he says what's urgent and what's important. And he says that all the magic happens in the quadrant of your life that is important but not urgent. That's where all the magic is. But we spend all our time on the things that are urgent. So the unlock is to take all the important things like working on your management team, working with your team on your goals, maybe designing a new product, innovating, things that are important but not urgent,

and schedule them, that makes them urgent. When they show up on your calendar as a meeting with a team to work on this really big priority, all of a sudden it's, you've made the important urgent. And that's kind of the unlock about how to get in that quadrant of important things.

You're becoming very well known. You're a great professor. I'm sure people reach out to you on LinkedIn every day. Yeah. And maybe you get some things that I get every day, which is, oh, Graham, I'm so impressed with you. Do you have 15 minutes for a cup of coffee? Yes. And I get that. I get a lot of those. I get a lot of those. 10 of those a week. Yes. And the answer for me is no. But if you want to join my summer internship program, you get a whole 12 weeks with me.

Nice. So how does somebody earn a meeting with you? Obviously, that's not going to work. Yeah. I mean, that's a great question. And it's something that I actually really struggle with over the last couple of years as I've gotten more and more of those requests. Because in the early days, I was just honored. I said yes to 100% of the time. And I thought it was a real blessing that someone wanted to talk to me. And I still feel that way.

And so, but I just, I can't, I don't have the capacity. I can't fill my calendar. So I kind of have to just prioritize and say, okay, the very top of the list is you work at Alpine. You're going to get on my calendar. You know, probably right under that is you're taking my class right now. You're enrolled in my class.

You know, I'm going to spend time, you know, I have office hours and you can be in my class. Probably right under that is you have taken my class in the past years. And then, you know, below that might be you currently are enrolled at Stanford because it is part of the job of a professor to meet with students. And so I want to, and then, you know, I, so I try to have this kind of algorithm of how do I, how do I prioritize those requests?

I do, to your point earlier about persistence, if someone writes me and did a ton of work and research and has something smart and they send me 17 emails, I will 100% meet with them. Like they 100% will get a meeting.

Um, so they get, they, they get jumped, they can jump the queue of that prioritization, but I w I wish I had a, I wish I had an infinite amount of time. There's probably some other unlock, like your internship. Like maybe I could have like online office hours on, you know, uh, on Instagram or something. I don't know. I haven't thought about that, but, but I, I really do try to, um, get to as many of those requests as I can. And, and I still have to, unfortunately not, not do a lot of them.

When you're successful and there's a spectrum of success, we get more and more busy. And as we get older, we've got kids. I mean, I've got five kids. You've got kids. I'm into philanthropy. You're into philanthropy. So you really don't have a lot of time. But I think mentors are very important in our success. And for me to earn a mentorship, it's not sending 17 emails. It's people who write me emails.

long letters. They listen to every podcast. Exactly. They're pulling names out of my mentors when I was younger. How does somebody become one of your mentees? I mean, probably actually being a mentee of mine, I just probably don't have capacity. I mean, just because I'm trying to give as much of that time to the people who work at my firm and I have current students. So, it'd be really hard for someone that I've never met, no matter what they're sending me to become

Like where I'm going to actually have ongoing, you know, weekly or monthly or something relationship. I just, at this point, probably don't have capacity for that. All right, we're at the end of our show right now. And I was concluded by a game I play, fill in the blank to excellence. Are you ready to play? Fill in the blank for excellence. Okay. So of all the coaching you've done, what are the biggest lessons you've learned? You can have just about anything you want if you're willing to do the work. My number one professional goal is...

Build the number one performing private equity firm of all time. My number one personal goal is... Try to live my life in a way that I'm creating as much impact on everyone who's in my life as I can. The biggest regret in my life that I've had is... Probably missing some early...

things with my kids when I was in the early years of building Alpine. My biggest fear in life is? I guess that I will die having not, you know, fulfilled what I feel like I'm on this earth to do which I'm still kind of figuring out. The craziest thing that's happened to me in my career is? The entire journey of starting Alpine from dorm room to where it is now has just been an unbelievably crazy journey.

The funniest thing that's happened in my career is? Oh, gosh. I mean, I could go back to so many crazy management meetings of visiting companies in the early days when we had no idea what we're doing. And craziest one would be probably my partner and I met two guys,

Who were so stoned they never turned the lights on in the major meeting. I mean, that was probably the craziest thing. Yeah. The best advice I've received in my career is... Ask yourself what you would do if you knew you wouldn't fail and then go do that thing. 10 years from now, I'm going to be doing... Probably very much a lot of the same things I'm doing now. Hopefully just a little bit...

I'll have a little more people helping me, particularly at Alpine, where my role hopefully be a little bit less than it is now. 20 years from now? I would hope similar, but probably I'm a lot more mentoring people than doing myself. If you could pick one trait that would contribute most to someone's success, it would be? Persistence. The most important thing that's contributed to your success has been? Persistence.

I love that. Out of the hundreds of books that you've read over the years, self-help, motivational, the one book that you would recommend above all others to somebody is? I'm going to go old school and say Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People.

Which has sold over 250,000 copies. I think he wrote that book in something like 1936. Yeah. And it's the first book I recommend to people. It's got a lot of sexist stuff. So, you got to look past that. It's, you know, it's old. But it's the content of that book is life-changing if you actually internalize it.

The one thing I've dreamed about doing for a long time but haven't is? I've been trying to do a standing backflip for about a year and a half and I'm going to land it. I'm going to land it in the next 12 months. Are you taking gymnastics classes? I'm working on it, yeah. I keep getting injured is the problem. I've had like four injuries trying to do that backflip, but I'm going to get it. The best entrepreneur of all time is? I'm going to go Elon Musk.

Other than you and Warren Buffett, the best investor in the world is? I mean, Jim Simons has the best track record of all time.

Yeah. So I'll go with, I'll go with Jim Simons. If you could go back and give your 21 year old self one piece of advice, what would it be? My, I would say it's going to be okay. It, things are going to turn out fine. And I would have saved myself a whole lot of stress and worry. The one question you wish I had asked you, but didn't is what's the meaning of life? What's the meaning of life? Shoot. I think you're going to say that. That's the quest I've been on for the last like two, three years. And, uh,

It's I think the ultimate question. I think the meaning of life is for each person to find their meaning of life. And for me, my meaning of life is probably to live like fully, you know, throw my entire soul into whatever I'm doing, you know, at all times, whatever that is. But I think each person has to kind of answer that question for themselves.

I'm grateful for you coming today. I've learned a ton. I've interviewed tons and tons of people, some of the most successful people in the world. And I've said this to my team and I want to say it to you. I've been so excited for the interview today because doing all the research, it really has, I've learned so much and I'm doing things that I think will change my life. Starting with the Lucite and all the things that you said, I'm big on Lucite.

coaching different people. I mean, you've coached me without actually giving me any direct coaching. So I appreciate you being here. Super excited, super grateful, and hopefully we'll get the chance to know each other better. I really appreciate the interview and you asked amazing questions, did incredible amount of research, and it's been a real pleasure. Thanks so much, Randall.