Part Two: The Throat-Slitting Evangelical Minister of Jamaica
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Welcome back to the story of a guy that I swear is going to end in unimaginable bloodshed. But at this point, he is a sex pest who has fled Canada for Jamaica in order to start a new evangelical church. Yeah, many such cases. We are back with our guest for this week, Molly Lambert. Molly, welcome to the show. Back to the show. Hello. Yeah.

How are we feeling as we come back into part two?

I'm ready to see what's going to happen. Okay. You want to drop any plugs at the start here for your new podcasts? Sure. Yeah. I will have a podcast out later this year called Jenna World, Jenna Jameson, Vivid Video in the Valley about the history of the porn industry in Los Angeles. And yeah, check it out when it comes out. Excellent. Well, that gets us back into part two and closes out our cold opening. Woohoo!

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So we're back. As I noted last episode, the bad Kevin Smith had founded KOS Deliverance International around the year 2000. And when he fled to Jamaica, violating the terms of his probation, he brought it with him. Now that Canadian magazine, The Walrus, reported that he'd been going back and forth from Jamaica for a while at this point. So he had some sort of an established presence there at different evangelical churches. And once he was on the run, he established a permanent base of operations in downtown Montego Bay.

He reconnected with a childhood friend there from Jamaica College named Charlton, who had remained in the country when Smith went off to Canada and had become a pastor himself in the area. Charlton served as a useful early source of connections while Kevin built up his flock, but he also had a sizable head start by the time he moved there full-time, thanks to his years of international work.

Charlton later claimed that Smith told him early on he'd started ministering to Portia Simpson Miller, the prime minister. And he would also sometimes add vaguely that he talked to with other government officials. So he's from a very early state claiming to be ministering personally to like high level politicians in Jamaica and have a lot of connections in the local government. And there's some evidence this is true, including the fact that

He really does not get investigated for any of his criminal history to the degree that you might expect of somebody who starts – who kind of comes into Jamaica, out of Canada, and immediately starts up a large and influential church.

His flock grew rapidly, and in 2012, he began affiliating his church with a larger Pentecostal organization in Jamaica called Pathways International Kingdom Restoration Ministries, or PICRM? I think PICRM would be the acronym there. I like that. Yeah, there you go. It sounds like a Pokemon. It was not like a Pokemon, unless I've really lost the plot on that game over the last few years. Yeah.

One regular talking point in Kevin's sermons while he's in Jamaica is that he hadn't left Canada because he had committed sex crimes and had to flee because he didn't want to do probation. He had rejected Canada and his comfortable first world life there to return home to Jamaica because he was so loyal to the Jamaican people. Right. I like that. He's like, he's like, it's not it's not you. It's me, Canada. Bye. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, he's reframing it. You guys didn't get forced out of Los Angeles. You just you chose to go to Portland. Right, right, right. And he's choosing to go to Jamaica because he's so loyal to the Jamaican people, which is just also a really fucked up way of pretending you didn't sexually assault a guy. Like there's no non fucked up way to do that. Exactly. But I guess this is particularly fucked up.

I'm going to play a clip from a revival that he did six or seven years ago where he talks about why he left Canada for Jamaica, both so you can, again, get an idea of like the personal charisma, like hear the reaction of the crowd when he talks about this stuff because they're buying it.

And also so you can hear like how he is framing why he wound up in Jamaica. Now, in this specific part of the sermon, he's discussing a conversation he had during a brief trip back to Canada with one of his Pentecostal mentors in Canada. So this is like a Canadian guy asking, like, why are you going? Why did you leave? Why did you go to Jamaica? Right. That's the context of this part of the speech. Now, he said, what takes you over? Is that Jim?

Holy Ghost and Monday. He said the other people think they have to help God and go get powers. And that's why the church always splits and divides. But for seven years, God has given you seed. And your seed remains. All I see happening to your ministry is God adding more and more. He said, by the way,

Let me teach you. Wait a second. Let me teach you. He said, don't you know, Jemma Weaver? He said, don't you understand? You see, look at you. You're coming here and you're buying all this candy to take back to Jamaica. Do you know what you're doing? I said, no, tell me. He said, you are watering the seed. I said, what do you mean? He said, because you love your people. I

The like music and like breathing combo. Very off-putting. It's beautiful. And man, but you got to hear like the reaction he gets. People are, that is, you can't fake a crowd like that. No, they're into it. People are down. They're into it. I'm just gonna, I'll play Kevin's advocate for a minute here. Okay.

He's just doing some preaching. You know, he's talking in a preacher style. Yeah. It's stylized. Yeah. It's the, you can really like, yeah, you can hear, it's fascinating to me how international that like American Pentecostal preacher voice is. I used to be, you know, down in the depths of hell, but then I got risen up by God. Like it's a very like. He's like doing a lot of mouth breathing. And as a podcast producer, that's my worst nightmare.

Yeah. Well, I mean, Sophie, that's why you're never going to make it as an evangelical minister. You know, I say this all the time. I'm a fucking Bishop. God damn it. That's my back plan. I, part of why I keep recommending the movie Marjo. And I know I talk about it all the time, um, because it's great, uh, is because he really explains like why that voice works and how you can like, kind of see it evolving. He was like one of the, one of the key figures in like making that be a thing. Um,

and it's just fascinating to watch in real time, but it's interesting how universal that is, at least among like English speaking parts of the world. Right. Um, like even when it's kind of a different dialect of English, the same basic cadence of voice works really well. Well, Marjo looks fascinating. Oh, it fucking rules. No, that movie rips, rips like a son of a bitch. Like I, yeah, you'll love it. Yeah. You'll love it.

Yeah. Sorry, just didn't didn't really I don't know anything about Pentecostal preachers or. Yeah. Child, you know, preacher. Yeah. What's interesting about Marjo is he kind of he started out before the religious right was a thing. And then he kind of breaks good like he decides that.

the Pentecostal movement and its alliance with the religious right is kind of evil and a grift. And he decides to like leave and film undercover during like his last year preaching within it.

So it's just a fascinating picture of the start of the movement that has really taken over American politics right at its kind of like gestation period, you know? Yeah, but don't you think it goes back even further all the way? That's just... Elements, sure. Yeah. We love a charismatic grifter. Oh, yeah. That's like the national character. Yeah. All right, go on. Go on. Keep telling me. Certainly, that part of it has existed for a long time. Yeah. Amy something.

Yeah. Of course, the unstated truth here is that Kevin left Canada when he was on probation for sexual assault, and he is a registered sex offender at the time he's giving this speech. There are allegations that his government connections helped him smooth this over. It's unclear whether Pathways knew when they accepted him into the broader umbrella organization. He was eventually disowned by the group after all the killings. But initially, the sheer amount of money he brought in seems to have kept everybody quiet.

The Reverend Adenair Jones of the Church of God in Jamaica would later recuse pathways of exactly this, of basically ignoring the obvious evidence that this guy was dangerous because there was money in him. And I'm going to quote from an article. Okay, not to play Kevin's advocate again. Okay.

But that's my role on the show, I think. No, no, no, sure. But it also sounds like I haven't heard about the throat slittings yet. So imagine, you know, I'm coming from a place of innocence. Yeah. Not knowing where he lands. It sounds like perhaps this child was brought into this, uh,

creature thing without sort of his consent. You know, he was told all this stuff about himself, about being special. Yeah, about being a prophet. And maybe there are some issues with his sexuality being repressed, coming out of a culture, both the Christian culture and, you know, growing up in Jamaica where there's just a culture of homophobia. Yeah.

Maybe he's just a troubled, a troubled dude, you know? Yeah. And it's almost, almost not his fault. He got forced into this line of work because, you know, I don't know. He was, he was chosen sort of without his, his,

His choice. Yeah. There's always a degree with all of these guys where you wonder, like, where does the complicity start? Right. Because there is there is often a case where, like, someone is like a victim in this period of time. Right. Well, it sounds like he's a victim of his own circumstances. Like, don't you know, it's obviously it's not OK that he sexually assaulted somebody. Right.

But it does sound like he could have had a different life if he had been raised under different circumstances. It sounds like he was really groomed into this position of being a religious leader and also in a religion where there's a lot of homophobia and sounds like he might be queer. Yeah. So...

I'm feeling bad for Kevin at this point. I feel like his life sucks and he's trapped in it. I feel both. Let's see. Let's see if I change my mind. I mean, he is a registered sex offender. He's a registered sex offender at this point. So my empathy is nonexistent. No, but I mean...

I'm saying like coming out of a super, like he may have, things may have happened to him as well, is what I'm saying. And he alleges things happened to him. He was sexually assaulted as a kid. He was abused as a kid. So like there is a, Not that it excuses it,

But there's a cycle in place, obviously. For sure. He's certainly part of a cycle, and he's part of a cycle of child abuse wherein young charismatic kids are adopted into this movement. Yeah, the charismatic child preacher thing also just seems like that's very exploitative. Yes. Would fuck you up no matter what. Deeply. There's no way to be well adjusted from that. Which is a big thing.

part of like what the documentary Marjo goes into is like him being like, I know I'm robbing people and I know that what I am doing is bad and perpetuating this movement. And also because of how I was raised, it's literally all I know how to do. Like it's my only marketable skill. But also, isn't it sort of like, it's a little bit consensual robbing, right? Yeah. Like if somebody, if somebody wants to give you money for some nonsense, like,

You're not stealing it from them. You're not forcing it out of them. There's other things you could give people money for the same worst. Sorry, I'm really playing Kevin's advocate. No, well, here's what gets me fucked up about that is I can see that logic and I can make that argument, but I can also see that logic leading you into gradually becoming a cult leader. Like it starts with a little step.

Do you take Patreon for your podcast? I don't, but I don't have a problem with it, right? But if somebody wanted to pay you for your charismatic ramblings on a microphone, you don't see that as exploitative. You're like, they just want to give me money because they appreciate me. I don't see it as inherently exploitative.

But I do see it as potentially, right? In that, because I've watched this happen, right? There are some cults where it starts out as like, okay, this is just a person who is like a content provider online. And then the level of adoration and fame and the weird parasocial relationships, they take it in really abusive directions. But we've all seen plenty of cases of white men in media who...

wound up with like very aggressive, like aligned fan bases and went increasingly insane. It's not a, it's not detached completely from this. Like we're talking about this kind of psychological, like this like wheel in the case of like evangelical Christianity, but,

But it also, it's not detached from like celebrity culture, right? Like it's not really great for people, especially when they're really young. I think if this starts to happen to you when you're older, you can have more of like a defense against it. If you've got a family, if you've got friends, if you've got a good number of people who know you and have known you. I think.

I think being famous makes everybody crazy. I don't know that it matters when it happens. I think being a child, it's a form of abuse and it is like making a child do any kind of job, you know? Sure. That's what I'm saying. Any kind of work is like, no, kids shouldn't be working. Yeah. It's kind of in the Michael Jackson family of things where it's like, oh, are

Oh, are we supposed to deny this child's incredible abilities that, you know, the world should be deprived of the greatest performer of all time? Do you stop them from playing? Yeah. I was thinking about this the other day because there are kids with podcasts now. And I was like, yeah, that's just a bad idea. But also, but I was also just like, oh, that's sad for them. They're making content. They should be like, you know, yard. Yeah. Like playing. Yeah. Yeah.

It's messy. And I don't know what the actual solution is here. What I'm saying is we're all complicit. Yeah. Let's agree on banning children from being advertised to. Can we at least start there? Yeah, we can start there. Maybe that'll start fixing some of the problems. For sure.

And I don't know, maybe have a government agency dedicated entirely to watching the parents of child actors. Okay, but if you got like a million dollar contract to advertise Galaxy Gas to 11 year olds. Sure, absolutely. Get them hooked. Get them hooked. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I think kids need to be doing way more drugs. Look. Yeah.

I mean, look at what they're getting up to. Have you seen this Minecraft movie shit? Like, it seems like if the kids were getting a high, they'd be a lot healthier. No, don't do drugs, kids. Or do. Don't do Minecraft. Okay. Don't listen to me. Back to the story. Back to the other Kevin Smith. Back to the other Kevin Smith.

Um, so yeah, the Reverend Adonair Jones of the Church of God in Jamaica would later accuse Pathways of basically ignoring the other Kevin Smith's criminal history and problematic history in order to make money. The Jamaica gleaner writes, Jones said that congregations have been too accommodating of virtually anyone bearing a Bible who could deliver soundbites using charisma and flair to flourish as did Smith.

And initially, KOS fits in with the rest of the Pentecostal churches in the country. Its website claimed, "Our divine mandate is to transform the people by the power of Jesus Christ," and stated that the mission of his church was to "win souls to the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ and deliver the lives of people from the snares of darkness." Pretty standard stuff. However, while most pastors within Pathways-affiliated churches went by the title "pastor," which is normal,

And I think we can see where problems are starting here now, right? Yeah.

Yeah. So it's unclear to me, number one, who the King's Oracles were. I have not come across an explanation of that title, so I don't know what that is exactly supposed to mean. It's also unclear to me when the prosperity gospel preachings got into Kevin's sermons, right? Is this something that he's really talking about before he lands in Jamaica? Yeah.

But during his first five or so years on the island, he becomes increasingly enmeshed in prosperity gospel preaching, which is a major part of kind of the charismatic Christian evangelical movement.

The prosperity gospel started out in the United States. And the way this works, it basically, you're preaching that God works like a high-yield savings account or a really good 401k, right? If you put money into God, and by God, I mean the church that you go to and its pastor, by tithing regularly, giving the church a percentage of your income, and then handing out additional seed offerings on a weekly basis...

And seed offerings, kind of the key is that it hurts, right? Every week you're supposed to give more money than you can afford to the church, right?

And the promise is that if you do this, if you give all you can to the point where it like damages your financial stability, God will reward you with miraculous financial gifts. So again, it really is like a 401k that works on a much faster time period. If you give God more money than you can afford now, God will give you back many times that amount of money, you know, at some point in the near future. That's like the literal premise upon which prosperity gospel is predicated. Yeah.

Now, it's probably worth taking another aside here to discuss prosperity gospel in more detail, since it is one of the root problems with American evangelical Christianity as a whole. The gist of it is that in the late 1800s in the U.S., there are two different strands of revivalist Christian thought that come together and they cross-pollinate. On

On one hand, you've got the holiness movement who believes prayer works the same way the force does in Star Wars, right? It allows people with sufficient faith to like heal the sick and do magic because all illness and discomfort come from sin, right? So if the Holy Spirit is in you, you can wipe sin away from people and it makes them able to either heal or even perform superhuman acts.

Now, the holiness movement kind of opens the door to a really theatric churchgoing experience, which is a key aspect of revival culture. You're not just telling people they're healed. You have people play acting as healers and the sick, right? And this provides kind of an emotional and social outlet.

People can come in barely able to move and then start jumping around and dancing, and they'll get this huge surge of applause. It's a performance, right? So there's this two-way relationship between the performers and the people reacting to it that has this kind of catharsis in it. And there's a degree of forced cognitive dissonance here. As Associate Professor of Religion Jonathan Baer writes for 9marks.org,

The key was to believe, pray and hold on to it, believe that it is yours and act out the healing even if lying symptoms persist. Right. So even if you know you're not cured, those symptoms because you've been cured are a lie. Right. If you feel like you still have cancer, you have to just ignore that because that's the devil trying to trick you into believing that you're still sick.

So there's a lot of like, you know, there's a lot of victim blamey stuff around illness in American culture, period. But this is one of the places in which it manifests, right, is in this kind of movement. Now, there's still an, this is still the holiness movement, kind of an underlying pillar of charismatic evangelism today. And it's why all of these churches are such fertile hunting grounds for guys like the other Kevin Smiths.

Now, the other movement that collides with the holiness movement in the late 1800s to create prosperity gospel is the New Thought Movement. And the New Thought Movement isn't an explicitly Christian movement. It's kind of a precursor to the self-help movement. It's related to Scientology. Dianetics is involved in this. And it's also the root of stuff like The Secret, right? And the basis of the New Thought Movement is that you can radically alter your mind, body, and situation through purging negative thoughts and reinforcing positive ones, right?

And kind of the main semi-secular figure we get out of the New Thought movement is Norman Vincent Peale, who's booked The Power of Positive Thinking in the 50s and 60s, is a big influence on young Donald Trump. And all this stuff kind of collides together and gives us the prosperity gospel, which is based on a merger of the two and starts to spread overseas in like the 80s and 90s, right, to a lot of countries that have exploding evangelical movements in the post-colonial era.

And Jamaica, which has a lot of impoverished people who are desperate for hope that feels actionable, is a particularly fertile breeding ground for prosperity gospel to start taking over, right? And so it really does. And that's kind of what provides, what tills the soil for the church that Kevin is going to start here in the early 2000s.

He begins hosting almost daily prayer sessions. I think they're three or four times a week, and those come with expected daily donations. So you're supposed to give a tithe of your income, and then you're supposed to pay every day, give a seed donation. And then he has one-on-one courses, right? He's still operating as a psychotherapist, so you can pay him for therapy, too.

basically the idea is all of your money goes to Kevin and the church, right? Like every dime that you get goes here. And if you're spending money on anything else, even spending money on like food or rent, you're kind of not putting your faith in God. And that's a sin, isn't it? Like,

It's a very abusive way to look at the relationship between like a pastor and his church. Speaking of abusive relationships. Oh, no. Advertising. Yeah. Oh, no. Uh-huh. The shoe fits.

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Listen to High Key, a new weekly podcast. You better listen. That's literally the definition of being an Aries moon. Just one little spicy off comment. That's all it takes. Everyone loves me at the cancer. And then the Aries comes out and they say, what is that? No, you're going to come for me being an Aries and you have a Sag moon? Get out of here. I'm a Capricorn rising, so that honestly balances it out and makes me more likable. Okay.

That is your Capricorn talking. Listen to High Key on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas. And I'm Matt Rogers, and we're the hosts of Las Culturistas. It's Pride Month, and you know what that means. Friendship, parties, dancing. Correct. And do you know what the perfect thing to bring to any Pride event is? Bowen, we talked about this. I'm not a thing. Oh, not you. I meant Casamigos. Okay, chic. And honestly, the only other correct answer. Right? There's nothing like having Casamigos at a party with your friends. That makes sense, seeing as Casamigos' whole vibe is friendship. It's literally in the name. I didn't realize that.

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And we're back. So...

Kevin starts offering free and discounted services to the odd male member of the flock that he wants to get closer to. And this is, there's allegations that he basically starts kind of, whenever a young man will come into the church, he'll start by offering that guy's family, like, benefits, free services, or breaks on, you know, the money they're already spending on the church.

in order to get that young man closer to him, you know, to make him his assistant, to have him work for the church. And there are some allegations that he basically starts operating a male harem through these kind of tactics, right? Pulling in young men this way. This is not something we have a lot of detail about, in part because in Jamaica, admitting that you were abused in this way, like there's a lot of consequences to it. Not that there's not in the United States, but it's hard to get people talking directly about this kind of relationship, right? Yeah.

It's not clear how much of this is like just psychological and how much of this is actual physical sexual violence. But there are direct allegations that he used these kind of relationships to engage in what was at least adjacent to human trafficking. The Gleaner, a Jamaican investigative news site with very good reporting on Smith and maybe the worst coded website I've ever used, which is nonsensical.

Not their fault. I know what budgets are like right now. It's just rough. They interviewed a former member of the church named Jeevon. At age 17, Jeevon was taken, that's his word, from his parents by Smith and used as an errand boy for the church. Now, it's unclear to me, does Kevin force this guy's parents to give their kid up or does he bribe them in some way? Or is it a situation where they just feel like, well, this guy's the prophet and we can't say no to him?

Jeevan claims that at the start, he sees Kevin as like a foster father and he feels chosen, like he's maybe the prophet's adopted son, right?

But this quickly gets disabused because Kevin takes advantage of this position of trust to have Jeevan handle intensive time-consuming tasks, like counting the money given at offerings every week, and do them for free. And this is not an easy or a small task because a lot of money is coming in. Per Jeevan, there were four different types of offerings. You have the $100 offering that starts the service, the $1,000 seed offering, and then the regular offering, and then another offering where you make covenant with the word.

So by the mid-aught, some people are donating four times a day with services three times a week, Wednesday, Friday, and Sunday. There's also, again, these kind of one-on-one sessions where he's making money, sometimes up to like $350 for what's called a deliverance session where he has like a one-on-one spiritual encounter with a person.

And since Jeevon's doing a lot of the counting of money here, he's able to give the gleaner an educated estimate for how much the church is pulling in. And he claims that a single night could bring in a quarter of a million U.S. dollars or more, which means Kevin's church is pulling down three quarters of a million a week just from services.

But he also offers up a bunch of side sessions, as noted earlier, which brings their estimated weekly income up to around a million. And just what we know objectively about the assets, the number of properties the church held, this is a pretty credible estimate for what they're kind of making, bringing in at their height. So much fucking money. Yeah, this is, they're making a ton of money. That's so crazy. Um...

But they're also almost always he's expanding so rapidly. He's buying so many new properties that the amount of money it costs to keep the church operational is pretty close to the income they're bringing in on a weekly basis. So there's always this level of like stress of like we really need to continue to squeeze our members for as much as we possibly can. Otherwise, this house of cards is going to fall apart.

Now, the Jamaica Gleaner goes into more detail about the different grifts that Smith built into the foundation of his church. Quote, Members of Pathways Christian Cathedral, as the church was sometimes called, were charged a fee of $500 for adults and $100 for children for the monthly miracle covenant seed for the church's ministerial upliftment. They also paid tithes, offering, covenant seed, or other special contributions as requested by Smith.

Membership cards also came at a cost, with adults and children paying $500 and $100, respectively, while widows were charged $200. The more one gives, the more God gets happy, one church member told the Sunday Gleaner in defense of the numerous payments they would make. The leader would help a lot of people in need, but nobody's talking about that.

And that is an aspect of this, too, is like people are seeing there are actual community services that are being operated. Now, not to the extent of costing a million dollars a week, but there's also enough that people can be like, well, the money's clearly going to a good cause, right? Right.

members were expected to volunteer time to help staff these different sort of community organizations and also to show up at regular festivals for which they'd be expected to pay like $200 or $500 for a ticket. And while there is aid for parishioners, this is also often a grift. For example, Smith offered loans to members of the church at a 15% interest rate, which is not exactly charity, right? We can say that about that. What is charity?

What does he want with all this money, though? Like, I don't understand. It's so much money. What is he doing with it? Well, he's building his empire, right? Yeah.

He's operating, as we'll talk about it, like he's operating businesses in the community now. He's trying to start like other churches and he's like, he's like building, getting into real estate. You know, there's, there's always places to spend this kind of money. Because now he's got so much money that he can't keep, he's putting it in a real estate like they do. And the other thing is that like there's bribes that have to be paid.

to local politicians. Like he talks about it as if he's like ministering to these guys, but there's always bribes to be paid. Right. So, you know, that that's not a 0% of the story here too.

Um, Jeevan describes his own role within the church in unsparing terms. We were like slaves. I was not allowed to go around my parents or any relatives or friends outside of the church. Um, and he works for both the church and for Smith's psychotherapist business, which is how a lot of these one-on-one sessions were marketed. Um, he had to get permission if he wanted to do anything besides work, even to go get a haircut. He describes it. Yeah. It's essentially like he's in prison, uh,

KOS Ministries does open a food bank with some of the money that Kevin makes, and they establish a program to help poor students pay their school fees. They pool donations to help fund medical care for small children and elderly parishioners.

And this is done in part because it's like a really good recruitment tool, right? Like this helps bring more people in. And he's also able to take in donations for himself and also take in donations to fund these different organizations. So it's not cutting as much into his bottom line. The primary appeal of the church is always Kevin's personal charisma, per reporting in the Walrus article.

One former attendee, Cherise, happened to pass by the church one day and heard Smith's voice. "That voice sounds powerful," she remembers thinking. She went inside. Cherise immediately felt that Smith wasn't a typical pastor. He insisted on being referred to as His Excellency. He spoke eagerly about the gospel of prosperity.

Cherise and former members say Smith regularly brought up the fact that he was a Canadian citizen, a point of privilege he leveraged to suggest that he could help get others visas to work or study in Canada for a fee. Smith charged for consultations or prayers, attendance at workshops and other events. One event in 2013, a wealth transformation summit entitled Money Come to Me Now, promised explosive prophecies to help participants break the cycle of poverty forever.

Wow. You see, like, the... Yeah. There's just no end to the grifting. Like, he's doing every playbook. Every single playbook. Okay, it's getting depressing now. I understand. Yeah, it's getting depressing. And there's so much of this that is, like, predicated on, well, he got out to Canada, so he must have some connections. He can get me out. Like, just how much poverty provides the opportunity here. Because there's, like, no easy way out of poverty. And...

People are desperate to believe there's hope, you know? Yeah, it's a bummer. Yeah, it's bleak as hell. Now, the good news is that Cherise has the presence of mind to evaluate the promises Smith is making based on their impact on her real life.

So she's able to say, I've been given money to this guy and I am not getting it back in any way. Right. And you're not supposed to think this way. Remember, at the root of all this is that you have to ignore your lying symptoms. If they tell you that handing over money to the church hasn't made anything better. Right. You're not supposed to feel like that. You're not supposed to think that way.

And Jeevon eventually comes to the same conclusion as Cherise. But because he's not a normal congregant, but someone raised in the church whose whole family buys into Kevin's BS, the task of leaving is a lot harder for him. He attempts to flee for the first time in November of 2015, and this would prove to be the first of ultimately six attempts to flee Kevin Smith's church over the years.

Per the Gleaner, "Each time I ran away, the church members blamed me for being disobedient," he stated, adding that the last time he ran off, Smith placed a death prophecy on his head, saying that his head would return on a platter. "Once you try to leave, they instill fear within you." Jeevan said many people refused to leave Pathways International out of fear for their lives, and in fact, they believed he was a prophet.

And Kevin kind of cultivates this reputation for prophecy in the same way any other grifter of this kind does. He makes these constant big predictions about like there's going to war, a natural disaster are coming. Right. But he doesn't say where. And like if you say there's going to be a war that breaks out soon or a natural disaster, you'll always be right. You know? Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

I predict in the next six months, a major natural disaster will strike the United States. I'll guarantee you that prophecy is correct because you can say that at any point in time and it will be true in the United States or most other countries. Right. Like that's just the way the world is, you know. Yeah.

The most compelling prophecies that he would lay out, though, related to individual members of the church. Jeevan recalled one that stuck in his mind when Kevin told a female congregant about a vision he'd had of her future. He prophesied saying that he saw her son in a pool of blood with the name Baby Killer, and about a week later, the same incident happened and was on the pages of the Western Mirror. And...

I don't know this specific case, but it's one of those things, especially if you get to know, you know, your flock, if you have members of your church who have like family members in gangs, it's not such a big prediction to be like, one of you is going to lose a loved one soon, right? Because like, you know, that's just how it happens when people are involved in gangs. So it may just have been a situation like that.

But this causes the fact that he seems to have this ability and that people believe it. It makes people afraid of Smith, right? You don't want him to prophesy negatively about you and your family because you believe that this can have an impact on you.

And it's also hard to leave if you're someone like Jeevon who started to question, you know, the actual power of this guy, because everyone you know and love is still in the church, right? And so you can be cut off from your whole support network by leaving. It's a fairly normal cult thing. And this is why Jeevon keeps coming back time and time again. He's going to leave like five times before it finally sticks. And things only change when he falls in love with a member of the congregation and tries to start a relationship with them.

This enrages Smith because, again, Jeevan hadn't asked for permission. And Smith, along with a number of other very young men, kind of wants to keep this kid chased and close to him. Jeevan claims the prophet told him, if you think I'm going to marry you and her, you make a big mistake, right? As in perform the marriage, right? Like, I have the ability to determine who in this church can get married, and I'm not going to prove that. Right.

And you get the feeling it's kind of out of like a sense of jealousy on his part that he really doesn't want this kid escaping his orbit in any way. But that is what, what gets Jeevon out, right? So crazy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a pretty, pretty normal deal. Um,

Jeevan ultimately leaves and stays gone, which may have saved his life given what comes next. But in the immediate term, it causes him tremendous pain because Smith does command family members to cut off their loved ones. And this is not just a thing Jeevan has reported. The Jamaica Gleamer reports, a young woman said she was kicked out of the church after two years as a member because of fornication. They don't speak to me. I have two uncles, an aunt-in-law, and three cousins still there.

And, yeah, it's just a... He's doing the Scientology. He's doing the every cult, right? Yeah. He's doing the Scientology. He's doing the Scientology. He's doing the Elrond. He's doing the Elrond. You know, he's doing the Elrond. He's not throwing people off of boats, making them search for gold, but he's got a lot of that playbook to him, right? I mean, he's doing the child labor, the... Oh, definitely that, yeah. The cutting off family members...

Uh-huh. The stealing everybody's hard-earned money. Mm-hmm. Yeah, he's got the holy trifecta of L-running. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Yeah, he's L-running. He's Hubbarding hard. It's bad. Now, one thing Hubbard would never have done that Smith does that I don't fully understand is in 2017, he returns to Canada and he hands himself over to the Toronto police. Why? Why?

It's unclear, but reading between the lines, I think he works out an arrangement with Canadian authorities using his Jamaican government contacts as an intermediary, right? Because he doesn't go to prison, and he basically gets set up in a situation where –

Canada, why? Why Canada?

Well, he does have to make the $500 donation to a rape crisis center. Oh, okay. All good then. And they also require that he engage in sexual behavioral counseling, but only if he stays in Canada for longer than a month. So as long as he leaves Canada, never stays more than a week at a time, he doesn't have to do any counseling.

None of this math adds up. Seriously. That's fucking despicably embarrassing, Canada. What are you doing? We're missing a part of it. But again, it's definite that some of the money he brings in is bribing local politicians. And my suspicion is that those local politicians have connections in Canada and there's a less direct kind of bribe.

going there. Sure, they're still fucking despicable. You know, there's ways to influence politicians in countries where that is looked at more that are still effectively a bribe, where maybe you're getting invited to speak at an event at like a resort in Jamaica or something like that, or like a permit that you need because you've got some sort of business over there, it gets a little bit easier. I don't know exactly what's happening, but clearly something sketchy happened.

here, right? This kind of sweetheart deal, it just seems unlikely that it would be handed out otherwise. And yeah, but we don't exactly know why Canada agrees to let this guy off with just the slappest on the wrist of slaps on the wrist for a multi-year long probation violation after a sex crime. I mean, again, he's hubberting. He's hubberting. He's blackmailing and paying off the government. Yeah. Yeah.

Although Hubbard would never have turned himself into the authorities. Absolutely not. He would fucking go out to sea. Not our LRH. Yeah, he would have set to sea. Yeah. So the understanding here is that he's doing this so that he can travel easily? Yes, I think it's so that basically he gets like, you know, there's holds and stuff on his documents. Sure, sure.

And now he's allowed to travel easily as long as he periodically contacts his probation officer back in Canada. Bad job, Canada. Yeah, not great work, Canada. Bad job, Canada. Bad job, Canada. Not the only time we've said that on this podcast, and not the last time. But you know who's not Canada? We don't know that. Yeah, we don't know that. Yeah, we don't know. These sponsors may or may not be Canadian. There's no way to say it.

Right.

That is your Capricorn talking. Listen to High Key on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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So in April of 2018, Smith holds an elaborate public party for his 36th birthday, which I think also kind of doubles as a celebration of the fact that he's about to be done with his probation terms. Police escorted hundreds of his followers as they marched through the streets of Montego Bay, and he follows them in a silver stretch limousine.

So he's bought his compound, he's building a church called the Ark, and they're growing food to try to get ready for the end of days.

And so, you know, things seem to be going well for the other Kevin Smith until 2020. Now, if anyone listening is old enough to remember back then, a virus called COVID-19 started spreading through the global population. Governments around the world entered panic lockdowns with very little understanding of what might actually happen or how long any of this was going to last. It is a, you know, we all remember, right?

Now, given the severity of the disease, it made total sense that you would lock down. But as you might recall, about a third of the population lost their minds over this, right? Like, people do not react well to this. And the other Kevin Smith is one of them. He seems to have fallen down a conspiracy rabbit hole himself, first by listening to and watching American COVID denialists online. So...

Again, we really we've got our part to play in this. He starts spending way too much time on YouTube while things are closed up, and that's not good for anybody. And based on the reading I've done, he really starts to go over the edge once the vaccine becomes a reality and governments around the world start talking about a mass rollout.

Since he's got this big platform, he starts using both his church's social media and his actual pulpit to howl to the masses that the COVID vaccines have microchips in them. And per the walrus, ingredients linked to the devil, which I love as a description of like vaccine. You know, ingredients linked to the devil. Yeah, they're linked to the devil. Yeah.

Like what? Like sulfur? Like what is linked to the devil? You put it in under a microscope and you see little devil heads. Yeah, little Satan faces. Little Satans, like little pitchforks. Yeah, yeah. I like that. I also just like the idea of like the devil was an international crime syndicate. And like, you're like, yeah, Satan's fingerprints are all over this vaccine. We can see bits of him in here.

Well, you've got shooters everywhere. Yeah, that is something the devil's famous for. Famously, the devil has shooters. Yeah, absolutely. Now, he describes wearing masks and getting vaccinated as taking on the mark of the beast.

And I think we've all heard a lot of rhetoric like this since COVID broke out, right? Like, I can remember when certain... And this is not... This goes back before COVID, by the way, right? The idea of describing certain things that are just sort of like marks of modernity as taking on the mark of the beast. I think...

I remember back in the 90s when there were certain conspiratorial Christian pastors warning people that barcodes on products, which were new at the time, were the mark of the beast. Barcodes are going to allow the government to track everything that you do. This is the devil coming to take this country down.

Now, I will say a barcode makes more eschatological sense than a vaccine as a mark of the beast, because the book of Revelations does describe followers of the Antichrist as having a mark and that, quote, no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark that is the name of the of the beast or the number of its name.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. No one's really stopped from buying and selling goods based on vaccination status, right? That doesn't actually happen, but that's immaterial to guys like Smith, right? The fact that, well, but this doesn't, like, fuck, man, and anti-vax people are running the United States now. Like, maybe this is not the mark of the beast in any way, but...

That doesn't really, like, factor into these people's thinking. As it is, the fact that the beast... I, like... All of this, like, apocalypse narrative is very funny to me, just given the actual, like, text of the Book of Revelation, right? Because the beast is not at all described as...

You know, anything like what you hear in the kind of popular fiction that's often inspired by the Book of Revelations. The beast in the actual Book of Revelations has ten horns and six heads with ten crowns on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.

It has, it's like a leopard, but its feet are like a bear's and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. I don't know what that has to do with the COVID-19 vaccine. You can twist that, I'm sure, into making it. It sounds cool. It sounds cool. Some guy was tripping and described a rad monster, you know? I've seen something like that on enough acid, and I'm sure it was someone on ergot poisoning who wrote the book of revelations, you know? Many such cases.

Smith also described the vaccine as a plan for population control, which also doesn't really make sense with the Mark of the Beast thing, because the Marked are followers of the Beast. And if the Mark kills them off, it's kind of the Antichrist shooting himself in the foot, right? Like the Antichrist, like, why would you want to kill these people, right? You want them as your foot soldiers. None of his math adds up. Oh.

None of this math ever adds up. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. Now, the walrus has, like, done a deep dive into where a lot of Smith's, like, where he is online, what stuff he's sharing, and where his beliefs kind of come from. And a lot of it traces back to Glenn Beck, particularly his website, The Blaze, which is just the least surprising thing in the world, but it's so frustrating that that motherfucker continues to have the kind of penetration that he has. Yeah. Um...

One of the stories that Smith shared that seems to have really radicalized him was the arrest of Canadian pastor Artur Pawlowski, who was fined in December of 2020 for failing to wear a mask while having an unpermitted anti-mask protest. Now, I wouldn't even call this a slap on the wrist, right? He gets fined for breaking COVID lockdowns and having a protest at the early stages of the pandemic.

barely a slap on the wrist. And in fact, just getting charged with this is a huge boon to this guy's career because suddenly he's a victim of religious oppression, right? This guy goes from a nobody to one of the most famous pastors in the world and other religious leaders like Kevin Smith start screaming that he's a victim of state repression.

Pawlowski kind of decides to let this shit ride, and so he holds another rally in February of 2021, during which he carries a tiki torch, despite it being daylight, for reasons that have absolutely nothing with signaling his support to the fascists who used said torches to beat people in Charlottesville back in 2017, right? There's clearly nothing suspicious about the fact that this guy does a tiki torch rally during daylight in February of 2021.

Nothing to do with that. Fucking weirdos. Proving that he was the one trickiest of one trick ponies, Archer has continued this grift up to the present day and has been locked in basically constant litigation as a result. You know, every time things will calm down, he'll try to commit some other public crime in order to get charges against him so that he can fundraise off of that.

Right.

Nonetheless, this con works perfectly on guys like Smith. It either works on them or they see it as useful to share themselves, right? And when Smith first hears about Pawlowski's first charges, which resulted in nothing but a fine, he posts on Facebook, "...this is abomination persecution of the church in Canada. The world is watching and mouths are closed. We must know it's coming to Jamaica."

Now, it absolutely was not. Jamaica is not gearing up for a crackdown on these people. And in fact, thanks in large part to Kevin Smith and other anti-vax religious leaders, less than half of Jamaicans have been vaccinated against COVID-19 at any point, a significantly lower rate than most of their neighbors.

By summer of 2021, though, Smith is totally pilled, and COVID-19 became the sole focus of most of his sermons. From an article in the Jamaica Gleaner, In one of the entries declaring his mission, Smith, who appeared to be obsessed with titles, declared himself His Excellency Dr. Kevin O. Smith, Crown Bishop and End Time Nabi of Him Conqueror Lion of the Tribe of Judah, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Jesus Christos, the One and True Living God, Yahweh 999, which is the opposite of 666.

Yeah, and also hard to fit on a business card. Molly, you should totally take that title. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We need more King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Conqueror, Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Podcaster, Writer. I think Yahweh 999, that's basically a fucking, you could get that as like a license plate. Yeah, sounds good. YHVH 999, sounds good.

He makes posts like forced vaccination in law is rape. A man forcing something into another man is buggery. A man forcing himself into a woman is rape. No prime minister can change common law and common sense. We don't need to go into all of the different things that are wrong about that. That's the kind of rhetoric that he's putting out of this period of time. Yeah, his math doesn't add up. No, none of it adds up.

In a post responding to a recent statement by Prime Minister Andrew Holness in which he stated that unvaccinated Jamaicans should not expect the government to prioritize them for bed spaces, Smith prophesied, "...we will be pushed out of the hospital and supermarket and the airports and the businesses."

Again, this doesn't happen. He began preaching that the police and the military would soon corral Jamaican citizens into camps and force them to take fatal vaccines. Anyone who yielded to the state and took the vaccine would be killed by God. Not necessarily literally, but a kind of spiritual death. Meanwhile, Smith promised, if you give up your life for Christ Jesus, you will save it.

So, he starts to insist that by October 22nd of 2021, the Jamaican government will use fictitious legislation to make the COVID vaccine mandatory.

The end game will be to try and deceive us or force us into quarantine concentration camps. Prepare to stand your ground. And I'm just like, how are we going to get to the throat cutting? I mean, you could see it starting to happen here. Yeah. I think I heard force march to concentration camp. Right. Here we go. Right. Like the government is coming for us on the specific date. We need to be ready. Right. That's going to set up a confrontation. The Jim Jones situation to come. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

He predicts a series of natural disasters around the globe that will coincide with this, which is all pretty standard end time stuff. But it's married to a marked invisible degradation in Smith's mental health state. Quote, Smith's behavior in person became noticeably stranger over time. He became more adamant that his congregants donate as much money as possible, telling them that if those who had money resisted giving, the member would crash and die and that Smith would send his wrath out to the member's family.

So he's like, if you don't give me everything now so that I can get ready for this, I will make sure God kills your relatives in a car crash. Ten days before his predicted date for Jamaica making the vaccine mandatory, Smith told his followers that anyone who gets vaxxed now would be excommunicated from the church. He posted a video to Facebook two days later, insisting, my job is the apocalypse and that an unveiling is coming soon.

His followers were shortly thereafter ordered to prepare their photo IDs and church membership cards and gather at the Ark on October 16th. Never a good idea. Never a good idea. I'm really starting to wish this was about the Mallrats, Kevin Smith. The Mallrats. Yes. Oh, if only it was the Mallrats, Kevin Smith. It's like, and it culminates in like, he made Jersey Girl and it was bad for everyone's careers. Yeah. I just go on like a 15 minute rant about Jersey Girls and Tusk. Yeah. Alas. Yeah. They're like,

the view askew prophecy is coming uh no very different and for an idea of how smith's sermons leading up to october 16th this day of prophecy sounded i'm gonna have sophie play another clip i've been sent to this nation from america canada world here for the hours come when your dead bodies will

Yeah. Okay. Sir. Yeah, so...

He's, you know, really amping people up. You're not getting people into a logical state of mind when you're doing that shit. Yeah, he's committed to the grift.

Yeah. To the bit. Yeah. Yeah. And it's unclear to me how much of this is he has really started to spiral and his mental health has declined as a result of getting caught in this conspiratorial media loop. You know? Also, like, look, who was doing well mentally in 2020 or 2022? Yeah. Who was, like, functioning? Who's doing good now? Nobody. Yeah. Nobody. Who's doing good now? Right. Right.

So early on the 16th, members of Smith's church start showing up outside the ark wearing all white. There's a sermon and service that follows that he's not conducting. He's got like lieutenants who are conducting the sermon and service, which goes on until around 1 a.m. the next morning. Right. So they're doing like a marathon session.

Smith's lieutenants manage the festivities up to this point, and he seems to have spent these hours, like where people are gathering and like this is going on, in a frenzy of social media posting, mostly to Facebook, where he ordered everyone to show up at the Ark without their cell phones wearing white, saying, the Ark is loading now. The flood is coming. Go now. Run.

He tells everybody that the Ark is going to leave on the 18th, and in case there's any doubt about what that means, he posts that in order to be saved, everyone at the Ark has to participate in what he called a, quote, Roman Catholic sacrifice that will have no survivors.

The cops don't get called as a result of this? Nobody's like, well, this guy's telling everyone to come and there's going to be a sacrifice at this arc that no one lives through. Probably not worth caring about, right? Must just be some, like, religious bluster. Dozens and dozens of his congregants take this seriously enough that they spend more than a day in prayer. Smith doesn't show up until the 17th, and his first command is for everyone to throw out the canned goods that they'd brought, expecting to need food to survive the apocalypse.

Then confusingly, he ordered them to empty soda bottles and fill the soda bottles up with water. One member who showed up that day at the Ark was Michael Brown, who had been hospitalized for severe kidney issues and had forcibly discharged himself from the hospital after Smith had ordered everyone to show up at the church. We'll discuss Michael later, but this is a guy with a life-threatening kidney problem who like leaves his hospital bed where he needs to be to stay alive in order to be at this thing because he considers it more important.

Outside the church, Smith made congregants bow down on their knees before entering, giving them judgment and writing their names in the Lamb's Book of Life, a biblical register of those chosen for salvation.

The Walrus reports, Oh no.

I don't know. Does she believe this is literal? Are they, does he talk? Does he kind of, does he explaining that this is actually like, or is it just metaphorical? Do they really think, I don't know. So, so much of his rhetoric is like talking in terms that are apocalyptic and violent, but what you mean isn't literal up to this point. Maybe people are like, well, you can't possibly mean he's kind of literally cut people's throats, right? That'd be nuts. You know, um, it's a spoiler. That is exactly what he means. Uh,

So at this point, members are ordered to lay on the ground and throw away any cleaning or sanitation supplies, like antibacterial soap or wipes that they had on them. While this was going on, someone throws a wine bottle onto the floor, and Smith orders a follower to use one of the shards to slit the throat of a congregant who happened to be seated near where the bottle had landed. He told another male follower that, in order to be worthy of heaven, he would have to let one of Smith's lieutenants cut his throat with a knife.

This guy got so far as to lay down in front of a dude who had like a knife when he realized like, oh my God, this guy's going to actually cut my throat. And he fucking runs. He like, he like bounces. He's like, oh shit, you meant this? This isn't just some sort of a fucking thing we're doing. Oh no, no, no, no, no.

And Smith's follower with the knife, a guy named Plummer, chases both of these guys who like both of these guys flee the arc at this point when they're like, oh, fuck, we're actually going to get it. No, no, no. He chases both of them out and he stabs them both in the back, wounding both of these men.

Meanwhile, back inside the Ark, Smith finds Michael Brown, the man with kidney failure who had left the hospital on his orders. And the pastor told him, you have to die, but you will rise again because I am the resurrection and the light. Now, this guy is still wheelchair bound and is still taking IV medications. And Smith pulls the tubes out of this man, causing him to bleed to death.

While this is happening, he turns his attention next to Taneca Gardner, who had already agreed to have her throat cut earlier. Per the walrus, Smith then handed a knife to a 17-year-old follower named Billy, who he instructed to cut Gardner's throat. But Billy hesitated, later saying that he remembered that one of the Ten Commandments states, Thou shalt not kill. Smith's right-hand man, Andre Ruddock, stepped forward and, at Smith's urging, allegedly cut Gardner's throat. She died shortly thereafter. Jesus Christ. Ugh.

So at this point, two people are dead inside the church and two more have been stabbed outside. Some parishioners have gotten the fuck out, right? Other people flee when it becomes clear he's actually going to be killing us all. And they call the cops, right? Although I should also note, one of the people here is a police officer, one of the parishioners. And I don't think it's him who calls the cops because he might have been down.

It's unclear precisely who ordered what, but when the cops show up, members of Smith's church open fire. Some of them have guns and the police start shooting back and we get a little bit of a Waco situation on our hands here. Plummer charges the cops with his still bloody knife and is shot and killed by the police who themselves have to call for backup from the military because they're just not prepared to deal with this whole situation.

The church crowd is fully split at this point. A lot of people have fled in sheer terror, but a number of them charge the police. Billy, who'd cut Tanaka's throat, also gets shot in the chest, trying to rush the cops, but he ultimately survives.

Smith is eventually arrested along with one of his higher ranking lieutenants. And the police begin searching his properties to try and figure out like what the fuck happened here. Right. From the perspective of the cops, think of how wild this is. You know about this church. It's a normal like evangelical church. And then one day you show up and there's people with their throat slit and like stabbed out in front and you show up and people start shooting at you and charging you with machetes. And you're like, oh, my God, what the fuck is happening here?

It's just like completely disorienting to everybody. So less than two weeks after this goes down, you know, Smith is in custody and incarcerated. And while he's being driven to Kingston with police escorts, the officers driving him take a detour that lengthens the drive.

And then his vehicle crashes into two oncoming vehicles. Smith dies at the scene along with a 26-year-old officer in the car with him. And two other officers are badly injured. There is a lot of immediate speculation like, oh, okay, so he was murdered. This is a setup because of what he knew or whatever. Like something shady has gone down here.

A post-mortem revealed that Smith had basically taken off, like, grabbed the driver's shoulder and pulled him to cause the accident. Yeah, that's the official story. I don't know. Like, there's some weird stuff here. Although if the state orchestrated this, they also got a cop killed with him. But, you know, I don't know. I don't know what happened. So insane. I don't necessarily need to believe that anything sketchy happened. But this guy, like...

Probably a lot of people who don't want him testifying also because of some of the shit that he's done. So it's not like inherently weird to be like, well, maybe something went on here. I don't know. But yeah, that's the story of the other Kevin Smith.

Fuck me. Wow. Yeah, that escalated quickly, huh? That really got out of hand fast. It really did. I had to grab Truman at the end because it got very... I was like, this is bad. I need a dog. Yeah, this is like fucked up and then like right to throat cutting very quickly. Making the guy in the wheelchair bleed out and then trying to get a 17-year-old to slit a woman's throat.

Bad. Yeah. And you really feel for like Jeevon who has to be thinking this whole time. Like what happened to all the fucking money is my question.

Yeah, I mean, you know, that's an interesting question. Obviously, a lot of it gets bribed out. They do find he has a property listed for like 330 grand after he dies. There's a number of other properties, like several million dollars in real estate that get auctioned off. But it looks like based on the cost of maintaining everything was not all that far from what was coming in.

So there may be a degree that like maybe as he had gotten crazier and more focused on anti-COVID shit, right? It's possible that like maybe there was a decline in the number of members and the amount of money that they had. And he was losing the ability to like fund people.

uh what he was doing right and so maybe there was a big uh the big grift i guess yeah yeah time to time for a swan song perhaps yeah wow yeah well yeah that ruined my day thanks

Yep. Yeah, thanks. Great. Have a wonderful weekend, I guess. Have a great time, everybody. Yeah. Maybe, I don't know. All of this is so downstream from what happened to everyone during COVID. Yeah. Or a lot of people during COVID. The fact that the lockdowns really supercharged the spread of a lot of propaganda that really damaged a lot of people's lives.

Like, like, cause you see, like this guy is a significantly different logical actor in a lot of ways after that happens, you know? Um, I don't know. Uh, it's bleak. Yeah. Yep. All right. Molly, what's the name of your book? One more time for our listeners. Double Axe and Pop. Amazing. Check it out and get it commercial type.com.

And some bookstores. Sweet. Excellent. Listen to Away Days podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. That's by Jake Hanrahan. And touch grass after listening to this one. Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to go touch so much grass. Or, you know, pet a dog if they want you to.

Yeah, pet a dog if they want you to. Tut some grass if you think the grass wants you to. Yeah. And check out Molly's new podcast, you know? Yeah. When is the podcast coming? Coming out this fall. Hell yeah. Stay tuned. Super exciting. All right, guys. All right, everybody. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com. Or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com slash at Behind the Bastards.

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