American Amnesia with Tressie McMillan Cottom [VIDEO]
59:57 Share

This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. One of my favorite things to have on hand these days is my Apple Card. It's made to be simple and private, and getting it was pretty simple too. It takes minutes to apply. Check your credit limit offer and start using it right away with Apple Pay. You could apply for it while waiting in line to get coffee and then use it to buy your coffee.

I also like that you can get up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, which can be put into a high-yield savings account that you can open through Apple Card. So, you can really put your money to work. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone and start using Apple Card right away. Subject to credit approval, savings is available to Apple Card owners. Subject to eligibility. Savings on Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Member FDIC. Terms and more at applecard.com.

A lot of politicians, if they're accusing like the Pelosi or the Clinton class, really don't know what ordinary people are feeling, right? And for some reason, he's able to be tuned in on the culture wars in ways that like surprised me. He's chronically online. Yes, he is. Let me tell you what the through line is for me. Yeah.

I would say about 80% of this for me. And I'm like you, I've spent a lot, a lot, a lot of time thinking about this and kind of like holding that voter up in like perverse fascination, like what's happening there. And I do think your point gets at it, Trevor, which is I'm not sure that understand is the right word.

I don't think you need to understand to act. Yeah. To be able to observe something accurately doesn't mean you diagnose it properly. Yes, that's what I mean. Right? He is the only politician out there right now who says a thing is a thing. Thank you. That's what I mean. That doesn't mean... This is why I need Tressie around. Ha ha ha!

This is what I need. You came here to be on my side. No, I'm not on your side. This is what Tressie does brilliantly. She articulates an idea in the most crystal way possible. It's exactly this. This is What Now? with Trevor Noah.

This episode is brought to you by Ultra Running. Ultra makes performance running shoes that are insanely comfortable with a roomy toe box and zero to low drop. This helps keep your feet in a more natural position so you can move how you were designed to. Perfect for the road, trail, or gym. You could wear them for miles and forget that they're there. Stay out there with Ultra. Try Ultra for yourself with a free 30-day trial and free shipping at ultrarunning.com. This episode is brought to you by Brooklinen.

Your bedroom is not just the place where you sleep. Let's be honest. It's your sanctuary. And as we head into spring, it's time to freshen things up and level up. Think about the you that you want to be this spring. Breezier, lighter, with a little bounce in your step.

Well, believe it or not, that can all start with a bedroom refresh. Yeah, leave the bulky, drab winter days behind and make your bed a space for lighter textures and warmer vibes. Before you know it, spring will be here and you'll be easing into the new season.

Shop award winners and fan faves in-store or online at brooklinen.com. That's B-R-O-O-K-L-I-N-E-N dot com. And use the code Trevor for 15% off your online order of $100 or more. That's brooklinen.com. Use promo code Trevor for 15% off.

Please tell me, did you see the Elon Musk, Trump, White House, Tesla sale? Car sales show? No, I didn't see that. Oh yeah. Only thing I was missing was Vanna White. When was this? Yesterday. So literally, it's so funny because we've been talking about Elon Musk on the podcast, all these things.

Trump brought Elon Musk to the White House or Elon Musk brought Trump to the White House. Depending on how you want to, depending on where you think the power lies, right? So Elon Musk is there and Trump's there. They bring a Tesla and Trump's like, I'm buying a Tesla with my own money. And the man did a full on infomercial. Someone took a picture of Trump's notes.

He was handed the sales notes. So the price of each car with self-drive. This is so embarrassing. And then like a little asterisk, like terms and conditions at the bottom. Please self-drive is free. It just needs to be activated on all of the cars. This car costs this much. That one costs this much. For low zero APR for 36 months. I'm like, this is the president of the United States. Yep. Shilling cars on the front. You know what it was for me? If Trump had even...

a modicum of panache. He would have brought it as more of a, this is American ingenuity. That's what's supposed to happen. Yes, you go, I just wanted to take a moment to show you why America is great. And, you know, Elon here, like, just like,

You know, just try and find in South Africa, we used to say like desist. It means like it's almost like find a way to like it's like just a little opaqueness to what you're doing. Yeah. Just make it a little cool. You know what I mean? Bring in like three cars, but then focus on Elon's one. No, no, no. This man full on for this low price. One time offer. And then he gets guys out this moment. You know, Trump, only Donald Trump. He gets in the car.

So the car is there. The car's there. It's on the lawn. You know the front of the White House, I guess is where this is, right? So the car's there. They pulled it up. And then they get in. And Trump goes, first of all, Trump's like, no, I can't drive. I'm not because I'm not allowed to drive. I want to be like, can you drive? I don't think that man can drive. He's like, I would drive, but I can't. They don't allow me. I'm not allowed to drive. There's this whole thing. They get in the car.

And then the president of the United States, the man who claims to know where technology, economies, markets, all of it is going. He gets in the car. He looks at the instrument panel and exclaims like somebody who has discovered a new world. He's like, wow, it's all computer. Okay.

Guys, he says it's all computer. So he's never been in a Tesla. Yeah, but he doesn't say it's all digital. No, it's all computer, like your grandma. It's all computer. Yeah, they put computer in car. And he shouts it out to us like we don't know. He's like, it's all computer. Wow, you look inside all of it. All computer. It's all, wow, this...

Yep. That's the man with the nuclear codes for you. Yeah. Actually, I felt more calm. I was like, I actually don't mind if he had the nuclear codes. Because if a man calls it computer, if the car is all computer, that man cannot launch anything. Yeah.

Do you know who's sitting somewhere right now going, are you kidding me? It is Hillary Clinton. Do you remember when they made fun of her because she couldn't work the soda machine in a convenience store? Oh, in a convenience store. I don't remember. Was that on the campaign trail? Yes, campaign trail. So, you know, America, you know, being a regular American. So they go to like a 7-Eleven. And I always felt sorry for her because I do think those machines actually are overly complicated. And I really felt...

a rare moment of deep empathy for Hillary Rodham Clinton because she was like, she's got her cup, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it used to be a physical thing. You'd press that lever. Well, that's not no more. You know that thing now that spins your cup and it does and you mix and flavors and all that. And she was overwhelmed. And they acted like that woman had lost her mind. Double standards. Yes. Now Donald Trump can get in a car and say computer. But I think Trump is the only one who gets the double standard, to be honest with you.

I think every other politician gets nailed for the smallest things. Eating pizza with a knife and fork. Who's the guy who's screaming, yeah! Oh, Howard Dean. Howard Dean. It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman. Binders full of women. Women. You name it. Trump has some, that's why they call him the Teflon Don. The man does things that no other person could do. Guys, there is no one who could maintain

the level of respect that he will still maintain from his people after getting in a car and saying, it's all computer. Yeah, I agree. If my six-year-old or seven-year-old said that, I would be slightly disappointed because I'd go, but you know that...

That's not how you say it. I would get them assessed. I'd be like, let me get you assessed. Let's find out what's going on here. Yeah, because baby, you've seen the tablet. That's what I mean. But also, for me, it was also the... It's because of how Trump likes to paint himself as the pinnacle of evolution, you know? I don't know why I get hung up on these things more than I do on him dismantling democracy. Because that to me...

Is almost... I don't know how to explain it. It's almost obvious. Like he's just doing it. He's doing it. And he said he's going to do it. He said he's going to do it. And then he's doing it. But then there are the small elements where he gets exposed...

for not being what he pretends to be in upper society like when they asked him about immigration and he said he said we need to be bringing in experts into we gotta get because h1b is very good h1b1 very good very important we gotta bring we need more people in like wine experts i was like you mean a sommelier yeah

If you're in upper society, if you are up in that world, you don't say a wine expert. Do you know what I mean? My quote from him is when he said, people are dying who have never died before. Okay, but to be fair, as a black American, I love that one. Let me just tell you, the number of times I've heard an old black woman say, they're dying like they ain't never died before. I thought, okay, well now that one...

That's my favorite. People are dying who have never died before. Yeah. We have a deep funeral culture where I'm from. And I was like, I could see that one popping off. But think about Donald Trump or the moments like you. I'm a little obsessed with these moments where he's clearly revealed. And I think a lot about why didn't that work?

Like, right. Why didn't that work? Because the great story to me of Donald Trump is, you know, he's New York's version of a country bumpkin. Yes. He's not a Manhattanite. He was never accepted here. That's what a lot of his grudge is about. He learned, however, that if you just win enough, they will at least give you a ticket. Right. He knows he's not invited because they like him. But, you know, he learned that. And I think he just got still. And I hate all the psychological explanations. Why? Why do you hate them? Oh.

Because I just think it's very American of us. Or is it because you're a sociologist? Yes, that's part of it. This is absolutely professional envy. But because psychologists keep winning and I'm not sure they have all the answers. You know what I'm saying? But I also think it's like very American of us to think that, oh, it's only true if he really meant it. If there's something deep inside. Oh, okay. And I'm like, it doesn't matter whether he means it. It matters that he does it.

And I'm like, you know, I don't really care if it's because he's insecure or lots of people are insecure and they still don't do horrible things to people. So I think we can kind of over rely on psychology to excuse away bad behavior, especially in politics. I'm like, does it really matter if he really hates trans people? Like, why are we so obsessed? I've heard people have the same argument around Kanye. So they'll go, yeah, okay, fine. He's bipolar.

Fine. But still, he's doing the thing. There are many bipolar people who are not doing the thing. That's exactly right. But the one element I keep throwing out is, yes, but how many bipolar people are billionaires? Yes, it's the billionaire problem. Well, Kanye, I think he has a brain injury. He kind of went through a car.

He's got traumatic brain injury. I've never thought of it that way. To me, he's like, you know those athletes with CTE? Yes. Who kill their wives. And it changes your whole personality. I'm like, this guy has a traumatic brain injury. And bipolar. And a billion dollars. Put those three things together. That's my Kanye thing. Oh, that's your theory. Yeah, I'm just like, yeah, I think he's got TBI. I can't believe I never thought of that. He displays all the traits. The violence. Yeah, the unpredictability. But I don't know if...

Yeah, I'm conflicted on that because I often go, how much time should we spend trying to understand how people got there? And I almost feel like

Maybe the two can happen. It's not binary. No. On the one hand, we can say it's good to understand it because maybe if we understand it, we can try and figure out how to not let it happen again. Yeah. You know? But then on the other hand, to your point, we shouldn't be using it as an excuse. So my thing on that is I think this might be a division of labor problem, which I mean like does everybody need to understand it to condemn it? Right? The behavior. It may just be that, okay, there are people who will –

puzzle out the how and the why. And then the rest of us, I think it takes a little humility to say, hey, I don't do that. I don't know anything about it, but I do know that he said this thing that I find abhorrent. And so that's enough for me. I think the problem is there are too many people who feel like...

They can diagnose. So for them that I need to personally understand before I can act. I'm like, the world's just too complicated for that. That's true. I think the thing I am still fascinated by is the Trump voter. Oh, yeah. I'm curious about the psychology of the Trump.

And I know a bunch of Trump voters. Why are you hanging it out? Because people tell me their truth. That's why. But wait, what are you fascinated by? What is it that you either don't understand or are trying to understand or, you know? Because I think that when he first came to power...

the liberal media establishment spent a long time being like, oh, it's because of they're economically disempowered. And then the data show that they weren't economically disempowered. It said they are afraid of being in these diverse neighborhoods with lots of immigrants. And it kind of showed that, well, that's not the neighborhoods they were living in. We've never been able to understand these people. And instead of them diminishing, it seems like there's more of them and there's more consensus.

And I think there's lots of simple explanations to why they do what they do. But he understands that. Yes. Right. So I want to understand the people he understands because he understands his voter more than anybody else in the world. I strongly agree. He knows he could say they're out of this world. He said, I can say they're eating cats and dogs and my people are not going to care.

And he knows where the kind of like the, what was it, the third rail is. Like Trump knows where not to go. Right? Yes. In ways that... We act like he is reckless to an unfathomable degree. But I have seen him, sometimes cakewalked up to a line that you would assume he would cross. Yeah. And he doesn't. Right. He knew saying black jobs would resonate with like the foundational black Americans on Twitter. That's right. And they were like, yeah, we know what he's talking about. Yeah. So he understands them, but...

many other people don't understand them, especially the Democrats, the people saving democracy and trying to stave off fascism. Is that what they do?

Is that what they do? Well, they claim to be doing. That's a follow-up question I had personally. Okay, here's two things that I think of sometimes in that regard. I'd love to hear how you see it, Tracy. Because I go, on the one hand, I don't think that his understanding is special. I'll put it there first. What I do think is he is thriving in an environment where everyone else spends more time, to your point, trying to understand things as opposed to just pointing them out. You with me? So what I mean is Trump will go.

The immigrants are coming in, too many immigrants. Then the person who's running against him will spend more time going, we need to understand how, you know, people move around the globe and what migrationary patterns tell us about the stability of other, you've lost people. So what Trump does really well is he starts with the problem and then he goes like, we'll figure out the solution. So let's think of it this way. If you were walking across the road and a bus was coming towards you, bus was going to hit you.

who would you prefer? The person who says, watch out, there's a truck.

It's not a truck. It's a bus. Or the person who says to you, excuse me, if you do not vacate the road as quickly as possible, there may be a vehicle that might make contact. And what I mean by that is there are some politicians I find who spend a lot of time delicately trying to answer a question. Ask most politicians. So do you think homelessness is bad in California? Yes.

Well, you know, I think before we talk about what we need to think about, you see, and then where he's winning is he's just being blunt. But that's not what I'm talking about. That's what black jobs is. It's a shortcut to say something. But I think it's the way he's able to intuit what people's problems are, being a man with no problem.

Right. But he has them, by the way. No, he genuinely believes he has them. That's what I mean. That's the difference. But his diagnosis feels right. Yes. That is what I think, by the way, has cut across class and across race. Yes. This is what like my great aunt is 91, 92 years old.

and she goes no you are right he is right there are a lot of people out there who shouldn't be here yes so remove them that seems like the most straightforward solution now removing them means violating the constitution uh you know violating as they've learned not having enough planes not having a place right there are all types of complications to that but remove them resonates deeply with a lot of people for whom observing the problem is the diagnosis of the

problem yes yeah yeah remove problem yes it's exactly that the other one I think that we take for granted especially if you spend all your time in America is this and I love this because I go home so frequently now I'll be in South Africa and then obviously I live in America but I'll go home South Africa go back South Africa go back South Africa the biggest thing I've noticed is

We take for granted that when you give people two choices, they will pick one of the two choices. Right? And then you will spend a lot of time asking yourself why they've picked one of the two choices, but you're not asking yourself what having more choices would have revealed to you. Yeah. Right? So let's think of it through the lens of sports.

One of the things that I've been most fascinated by in the world of sports is how fervently people support a team and yet how nuanced they are in their ability to support another team. And what I mean by that is someone will go, I'm a Lakers fan.

Who are you? And the person will be like, I'm an Oklahoma City fan. They're like, okay, you cool. Yeah, because you hate who I hate. And you didn't lose to them. As long as you're not a Boston Celtics fan. That's right. As long as you're not a Celtics fan, we good. Who are you? Oh, you're a Knicks fan. You're this fan. And that's what happens in sports is...

Even when we talk about football in England, I'm a Liverpool fan. And then when we talk about who we go like, if Man City wins, I mean, who's a Man City supporter? If Arsenal wins. You see, it's a thing. And if Man United wins, it's even more now because it's like, okay, we're in the same region of the... So what I think sometimes people forget when they look at American politics is,

They spend a lot of time going, why did these people choose this? But they don't realize that if there are two choices, they will choose one. And because the parties themselves have become almost like... I don't know what the right word would be, but they...

They've almost gone, if you have the issue, we don't have it. Oh, yeah. And if you have the issue, we don't have it. That is mutually exclusive. Yeah. You care about immigration, so we can't. That's my thing. Right. So if I say to you, okay, who is a fan of saying whatever you want? Who would you say? Republicans. You see, okay? If I say to you, who's a fan of lower taxes? Republicans. All right. If I said to you, who's a fan of free healthcare? Democrats. You see, I don't think it should be like this. Mm-hmm.

Politics should – you should not be able to pinpoint just like entire swaths or groups in it. You should be able to say, oh, these parties or these groups or that – oh, this governor believes that and that one doesn't believe this and this. And you know you see that graph. I'm sure you've seen it in all your work, Tracey. If you look at the – there's a beautiful graph I once saw.

of the overlapping dots of policy that American lawmakers used to have. You've seen it, yeah? Yes, yeah. And it shows you how a West Virginia Democrat... Yeah.

was further from the same issues as a New York Republican. They were like, no, no, West Virginia Democrat was actually quite close to a West Virginia Republican. And New York Democrat was actually close to a New York Republican. It's just, you were like, you were inching. But now because politics has all become national, I think you're giving people two choices.

And so someone will go, because most people are single-issue-ish voters. They will go, to your point, remove them. Who says remove them? Oh, only one party. All right, well, I guess I know who I'm voting for. Who says we're keeping the coal jobs? Only one party? All right, I guess we're... Do you get what I'm saying? Yes. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

This episode is brought to you by Ultra Running. Ultra makes performance running shoes that are insanely comfortable with a roomy toe box and zero to low drop. This helps keep your feet in a more natural position so you can move how you were designed to. Perfect for the road, trail or gym. You could wear them for miles and forget that they're there. Stay out there with Ultra. Try Ultra for yourself with a free 30-day trial and free shipping at ultrarunning.com. This episode is brought to you by National Education Association.

NEA's Read Across America campaign celebrates a nation of diverse readers with recommended books, authors, and teaching resources that promote diversity and inclusion. However, certain politicians are banning books with characters representing diverse perspectives and experiences, including books about Martin Luther King and the Trail of Tears.

But let's be honest, all students deserve access to diverse, age-appropriate books. So, help us celebrate and protect the joy of reading for all of America's students. Learn more at readacrossamerica.org.

I would love, just as an experiment, I would love to see what would happen if you said to Americans, in fact, the New York Times did this as a game once that people played. Oh, your belief, like what you actually cared about? Let me tell you. Yeah. The consternation it created at The Daily Show. Yeah, why? Was one of my greatest joys. The New York Times came out with a little quiz. Yeah. You remember this? I do. And the quiz said, we're going to give you a list of issues and how you think they should be solved.

At the end of it, we'll tell you who you should vote for. It was extremely popular, but maybe not for all the right reasons. Can I tell you the amount of people who had existential crises? People looking at their phones going, I'm not a Bernie fan at all. What do you mean I'm a Hillary? I would never be a... People were shocked to realize that the person they support doesn't actually support

The issues or the policies that they would support. And that's what I mean by you've given people the option. So I would love to see what would happen if you said to Americans. Oh, that would be amazing. I would just love to see what would happen. If you said, if you just said in America, like actually we think America is polarized binary. But I would love to see what would happen if you gave this country a chance to show how complex its tapestry is. I would love to see what we would learn about people. What are the views on immigration? What are the, don't buffet politics people. Mm-hmm.

Don't be like, you chose this buffet, you chose that buffet. No, no, no. A la carte. Show me your politics. And all of a sudden we start to get more granular and we start to see things that we've never seen before. Because I think the Democrats have now been able to occupy this position of being more progressive on race. And I have not met more racist people than the liberal white people in New York who won't even send their kids to public school. Yeah. Like, just...

And the really subtle psychological warfare. It reminds me of the racism in England. You know, it's like so deft. Oh, it's taken on a lot of the contours of English class-based racism. I think for the same reason. Class became so important to the Democratic Party because they are trying to serve the interests of a donor class who has a lot of money while keeping the interests for their identity, we're progressive, we're liberals, aligned with working class, poor people, minority people, immigrants.

So to reconcile those two things, right, think about who you have to be to have both of those things exist for you simultaneously. You got to be delusional in kind of the same way that English people are who will tell me to my face, we don't have racism here. We do have class here.

But we don't have racism, as if these are two entirely distinct. But you have to believe that when you have this like really structured class system. You have a monarchy. That's right. You have this really formal system of immigration, right? And I think the Democrats have oddly kind of a modified version of that for much of the same reasons. Their class politics right now do not align with their race politics. Yeah.

And so you get a lot of people who make do with that for the same reason everybody went nuts over their results to the quiz. I mean, you think about who the typical New York Times reader is. Daily show employee, perhaps. And what they realize is that they have accepted a lot of casual racism and policy.

So that they could keep their class politics, which is, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I absolutely think we should have more immigrants. We're a nation of immigrants. But I do need local control over my schools. Yes. Because I bought a house in a neighborhood that depends upon my kids going and being associated with the kids who do the right. That's the Democrats deal.

And one of the things that Donald Trump did really well that they still don't have an answer for is he pointed out the hypocrisy of that. He's brilliant at that. In the way that you and I always experienced it because we were always the black people vis-a-vis the Democrats. So we knew it was hypocritical. But for him to point it out and do it so effectively is part of the reason why I think they are spinning out. Yeah. He's done a great job at that. Oh, yeah. That's what he's really good at saying to you. Remember when he said, was that one of like,

ask Hillary and her friends about the taxes. And when he goes, well, they don't, why haven't they done it? Why haven't? He's like, they've had the power. They could have done it. They had the presidency. They had the Senate. They had the House. They didn't do it, folks. They said it's a problem, but they didn't do it. It's so interesting that you point that out because it was fascinating

Fascinating to see how OkCupid's founders, we're going to have him on the podcast, were able to see in the data that liberal people, proud liberal people, did not...

in according to what they said in terms of their views. We love that data, by the way, as sociologists say, which we am talking about sometimes. We love the OKCupid data because our personal lives are the only place left in this culture where we feel safe being racist, classist, elitist, and ableist. Wow.

Because we say what? It's just our preference. I can't help who, you know, gets me going. That's biology. This has been my favorite thing is when they get asked this. People get asked this in random forums. They'll be like, cool. They'll be like, cool white people. Cool, cool, cool. And then someone, because things are so cool, someone will say to them, have you ever dated a black woman? And the person will be like,

I just don't think they had any at my school. I'm sure. And I love how they do the thinking thing. People, you don't need to know. If you ask someone, have you dated someone? You don't be like, have I?

Let me think about who was, I'm like, you know the answer. You know the answer. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes. And I think there's like a level of honesty that people aren't able to have. But when it's now going to be in their personal life. Oh, yes. They can't hide the thing anymore. That's right. That's why people went really, do you guys remember this moment? I think it was around January 6th where there was,

a group of young women, probably just internet-based, but who admitted to using Hinge and the apps to sort of like catfish Republican men. No, I didn't hear about that. Right. So there was this thing, they would go, okay, you know, you're never going to be with somebody hot like me again, unless you change your politics. And so they would like pretend to be Republicans to out them to find out where they were on January 6th.

They'd make the romantic match, right? Okay, wait, wait, wait. Help me break this up. Yes. So these women went online. Yes. Okay. And then they— And I think they're hot. You got to have that part. Very, very hot. So these were hot women who went online and they created profiles. Yes.

And then they linked up with Republican or conservative men. Yes. Because they are apparently, according to the data, as you know, they are at a disadvantage on apps. Conservative men, they all complain about it. Nobody wants to date them. Then January 6th happens. And I think this started as someone said they recognized a guy they thought they saw on one of the apps once in the videos. Oh, my goodness. So the women start going on and going, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that guy. I've seen that guy. And so they were catfishing them.

pretending to be conservative or interested in conservative men. And then the chat would go, yeah, so where were you last week? And it like outed like three or four people. You know, I always say to my friends, I always say this, I go to all of us, I go, guys, I

I don't know. Like amongst us, I'm like, I don't know what our downfall will be, but I know it'll be a woman. I don't care who you are. That's right. I don't care who you are. Like men, yo, our weakness is women. And it just, you don't know when it comes. You don't know how it's going to happen. You don't, it might be your business. It might be your marriage. It might be your sports career. It might be your journalism. I don't know what it is going to be, but the,

Like, that's why the Bible was so prophetic. See, like Garden of Eden. They were very clear about that in the Bible. Yo, Adam was never going to eat that apple. That man... No, no, no. Adam, you know why? You've cut my face, Trevor. Let me tell you why. Let me tell you why. I'll tell you why. Because Adam... You know why they wrote the story like that? Because they knew. They're like, Adam was stupid and simple and he was just like, yo, man, I'm not... And then what happened? Eve January 6th him. Yeah.

She was like, why don't we eat the apple? And he's like, what? And he, because, yo man, it's a prophetic story. That's an interesting reading. You think a man could have tricked Eve into eating the apple? You think? Okay, let me ask you the question. I don't even want to go down there. No, no, no. I want to ask you a question. Do you think a man, you think a man would have been able to shift Eve to eat the apple? I think he got her to eat the apple and he lied about it. And now we read the book.

Man, I'm not talking about blame. I'm asking you if you think... I'm with the lying thesis. I like the lying thesis. No, I'm going to say something sexist about women. Let's not do this. I would say. Women have two... Women have done it. ...male's basic nature of being lying, though. I know a lot of women who are all about the male gaze. And if a man told them to eat an apple and God told them not to, they would do it. Yes. But...

But there's only one man in the garden. I would think that Adam was too stupid to think through the logic of, hey, apple could be good. Right? Like to get to that conclusion. That's what I'm saying. I'm just saying. Yeah. Now, I'm not sure that Eve convinced him so much. She was like, yo, I'm going to try the apple. And he's like, not without me, you ain't.

Because I do think there's a basic nature here that we're talking about. And so I think the double L-mean kind of came up. I'll agree with that. But I wanted to say something about this app experiment that the women did. I don't think that would happen in 2025 because I'm noticing a lot of women getting conservative. Oh, yeah. I'm seeing it all over my TikTok, my Instagram. Same. I think we're on similar TikToks. Are we on the same algorithm? I think so. Yeah. Like the...

Thing about skinniness, how we should dress, about being feminine, being kind of conservative. A return to conservatism. I'm seeing women who were like a few years ago I considered pretty progressive becoming more about like, oh, I want only biological women. What is that about, Tressie? Oh, I think that's, we talk about economic anxiety. You guys are talking about that. And I agree. I think we totally misdiagnosed women.

like that whole economic anxiety argument. And the case with women, I think is a perfect example of how we misdiagnosed it. Yeah.

Yes, people are anxious. That doesn't mean that they should be anxious. What people are responding to is perceived loss, not real loss. That's why you're like, what do you mean? They're rich. They're not economically anxious. Yeah, they are. It's just not real. It's made up. It's status anxiety. We're calling it economic anxiety. So when you start saying it's status anxiety, though—

That's where I think the gender piece becomes really prevalent because what I am seeing happen, same, women in my life who were all pussy-headed out about Hillary, right? They were throwing pussy hats at me and they were like, we got to go. I had to wear a pantsuit for Hillary, right? And today, I'm with her. I'm with her.

And today, you know who they are with? A dude in a fleece vest and khakis. It's like they look at, I think, they are looking accurately at a post-Roe reality, a world where truly the United States government is the most powerful force in the world still.

And it has declared war on women. Go back home. We want you out of work. We want you out of schools. Too much, too far, too fast. And I think you look at that and you go, I'm hitching myself to the thing that provides some cover for

Right. And I think that performing conservatism, even if it's just in how you look, everybody's getting the haircuts now. I said the natural hair movement is a liberal haircut, by the way, to the conservative haircut. What is a conservative haircut? What's a liberal haircut? You know it when you see it. You know it when you see it. Trevor, honestly, you will. You will know when you see it. Also with black women, the natural hair movement, I think, is pretty much like.

Done. Folks are going back to the blowout. Relaxers. And the relaxers. That's why they were mad when the science came out and said relaxers might be causing cancer. Yeah. Because the transition had started. And I think it's the same reason, the same thing for Black women, by the way. We have been at the forefront of like economic progress for women. That sort of generational forefront, right? Yeah.

Black women, women writ large, outpacing men in education, going to college. We were almost at parity in the most male fields, law and medicine, right? Is that for Black women? All women. All women, okay. Yeah, Black women had already exceeded Black men, but white women were now coming forward. I mean, we were almost at parity.

And now you see this like hostile sort of response to women. And I think you start going, if nothing else, let me look the part. And again, I'm not sure any of that's conscious. I think as you look around and the aesthetics, for example, of the Trump administration are really clear. Blonde. Blonde, as blonde as you can get it. And I think that you take that as a cue.

For this is what we do now if you want a little bit of safety. Okay, so this is what I think about. I don't think men are safe. No. The way I was, maybe it's just like the way I was raised was like, have your own money. Wait, you mean, help me, you mean like men are dangerous or you mean men are not safe in the system? I mean, men are dangerous, but that's just.

But they're not a safe backup plan. That's not a safe backup plan. A man is not a financial... Okay, go, go, go. Your grandmother was like my grandmother. Yeah, my mom was always like, we spent too much on your education for you to become a stay-at-home mother. And then my dad's like, don't, it's your choice. But there's this argument. My mom's like, we invested in these girls. That's right. And part of that is a fear of what a man will do to you if he dies or if he leaves you. So you always need to have your own means. And my mom was like, even if you're just selling cakes,

and you're at home with your kids. Just have a lifeboat. Have your little pocket money. But now I'm seeing a lot of women and my circle is a lot of women of color who are like,

I want to be a stay-at-home girlfriend, stay-at-home wife. I want a soft life. Can I just say about stay-at-home girlfriend, the oxymoron of that pushes my buttons in a particular kind of way. Tell me more. What is a girlfriend? A stay-at-home wife is only allowed to be a stay-at-home wife with the benefits of it, however marginal its benefits are, because the state says he owes you the money. Yeah. If you a girlfriend, who's going to make the sucker get you?

the money. But that's what I'm saying. People are like, I'll even settle to play house. I see these young girls and I feel like I'm turning into an auntie, but I see these young girls and I'm like...

Who raised you? Who raised you? I never thought I would see the day when Tressie McMillan Cotton would be sitting in front of me saying, get the bag. Get the bag. Get the bag. Marry him. Marry him at least. Do you know what people's grandmas did for you to be able to get the bag? Do you know what she put up with?

For the bag to be procurable? But it's become a meme. There's a meme now like, oh, I wish we could go back and tell those women why it's... Women and say like, what were you thinking? Why would you fight for us to have the right to work? I hate work. But I see this in a different way as well in South Africa, for instance. There are a lot of people now in South Africa who go, maybe apartheid wasn't that bad because at least then there was no unemployment. In apartheid, the electricity was fine. And then I'll say this.

I wouldn't say to women because I wasn't a woman and I wasn't even around then, but still I go, yeah, but remember, it is easy to think that the things worked well

when the system was only designed to benefit a few because then it was working well for a few. So in South Africa, yeah, we had electricity because we only had to give it to 5% of the population. Yes, the schools were good for 5% of the population. Yes, there was no unemployment because people were essentially slaves. So yeah, if you want to go, you're forgetting that things worked, but you're not including who they worked for. And how bad it was for everyone else. That's exactly right. I am curious about like,

and I think about this about myself and like younger women that I'm around, why hasn't there been more resistance? Why isn't, like people are surprised when they look at the votes, how many women voted for Trump in spite of the Roe v. Wade thing or just the indifference. You're not seeing women marching in the streets about many of the things happening. It feels like we've just been like, I can't do it. What's that about? I think the reality of progress and it is a,

you know, it's counterintuitive, but we see this with any kind of form of progress. So the example I like to use is like the classic immigrant story in this country is the parents who immigrate to this country will always be foreign to their children who benefited from it, right? They will never truly understand each other, right? There are millions of books written about that very story. That's just the immigrant story. Why? Because what it took to

To be desperate enough to leave your home country to go to the United States of America means you will never be able to fully appreciate or understand the benefits of it. So you do it for your children who will understand the benefits of it, but will never understand what it took to be desperate enough.

To migrate. The conundrum of social progress is what you have is a generation of women who benefited from feminism, but never experienced what made feminism necessary. Right. We think and that's not to say that it is not true that but we think the sort of like interpersonal bias and violence we experience at work or school or whatever is as bad as it can be.

When really, as bad as it can be, is being fundamentally, according to the state, an appendage of your husband. Not having a bank account. That's right. That's actually as bad as it can be. But for you, that's like this vague notion. It's very abstract. Right. It's very abstract. Right. And I think knowing and understanding what made you possible might be fundamentally impossible.

So, and not to, I don't want to throw elder women under the bus because I think we do that too much. Did they not articulate enough to us? Who wants to remember what brought you here? Like the amnesia, again, another part of the immigrant story is how many children of immigrants have said, my parents never talked about this.

No. They wouldn't even use our native language. Yeah. I don't know any of the stories that brought me here. Food. I didn't like. It's just like, put it away. We do the same thing. They survived it. I've been working on this memoir for a couple years now, and I promise if my publisher's listening, I am almost finished. I'm done.

I swear to you, I know it sounds like I'm doing a show and we're so close. And one of the things that comes up, and again, nothing unique about this, but I don't know anything, as it turned out, about my grandmother, who I thought I'd known my whole life. The things we don't talk about are huge. The things we don't talk about is probably more than the things we do talk about. And so there's this ongoing generational amnesia when you have

in any kind of way. Like, I just don't think people want to sit around the dinner table and talk about the beating that finally broke them or the, you know, the sexual violence that finally pushed them to leave a husband, right? People just don't want to talk about that. And so it becomes real easy for you not to inherit the violent part of the story. And all you inherit is, yeah, but she ain't have to go out to no job. Yeah.

Yeah, she would have loved to have gone out to a job. She was begging to go out to a job. Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now? after this. You know, when you talk about that, I can't help but think about how it applies to many of the moments of progress that countries have made and society has made. Because everything you just said now

could completely be applicable to vaccines, let's say. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Because everyone who is alive now with no polio, no measles, no anything, you cannot appreciate a vaccine because you do not live in a world

where you are seeing the effects of not having the vaccine. Well, it's so funny because on both my maternal and paternal line, I think particularly about my paternal line, my grandmother had a set of kids before my dad and his two brothers. And they kind of always existed in the family imagination. And then when I grew up, I realized that they were pretty unrelenting

older when they died. They were like three and seven. They died in infanthood and early childhood and from like things that a kid never dies from now. And when I think of especially my paternal grandmother, she never got over that grief. And so I think we live in the shadow of a lot of grief in my family, like the grief of that particular event, those particular events. And so I said, I said, look,

When I hear about anti-vax stuff, I get personally triggered because being the child of two Nigerian immigrants, I'm actually not that far away from a world where there are women who would, your child gets an MLR vaccine, you say, thank you, Jesus. That's right. Because you know what it means. Do you know what I mean? So that thing about the distance and vaccines, I think there's some populations who like are a bit closer, but for your average person in the West,

They don't know somebody that's died of measles or even meningitis. Like some people take the meningitis vaccine for granted now, but I remember when it was a death sentence. Yeah, but I think about this in all aspects of life. The FAA is a great example. Because America has had such an impeccable track record flying, people now take for granted

apparatus that has gone into making sure that America has such an impeccable record while flying. People, you don't understand how many planes are flying around all the time, landing, taking off. I mean, these are like decisions. Oh, the science of it is amazing.

And then people go, we need to gut the FAA. We need to, and you go, no, you say that because you don't understand that you're experiencing its benefits. That's right. You know, if you've only been in the time of something existing. Mm-hmm.

It is hard for you to imagine a time before it existed and how much better life has gotten. And so then you don't think that it's meaningful anymore. That's right. We talk about like the shadow state, which I find – I have found that the way the GOP, you know, headed by Trump, but not just Trump in this instance. Talk about, you know, the deep state, you know, the scary deep state, deep state coming for you. And, you know, the –

Sociologists have this thing like the shadow state, which is our government functions so well for such a complex, large population.

And most of that is invisible to the average American. Poor people see it because they got to go to court. Yes. Okay. Yes. But everybody else, water just shows up. Trash just rolls out. So what we are talking about here is like a sort of like politics, a disease of like privilege. Right.

Right. That the state works so well. Yes. It's been so stable, which in the like global scheme of things really is phenomenal. And it works so well for a diverse, far flung population that a huge cross section of people who don't have a ton in common any other way can be convinced that.

that the state is unnecessary. And that, in fact, the only way this is working is that there's a secret deep state, right? But no, what they mean by the deep state is the functioning government, right?

Your checks arrive on time, right? And so what they think the government is, is that customer service number they call, where admittedly, you might get a sister who don't want to talk to you that day. Admittedly. But what they do not see is like that you are just like a small handful of exceptions that didn't fit into the bureaucratic majority that time. Your stuff got lost, but the vast majority of people's did not.

most people's stuff at the DMV actually goes smoothly, believe it or not. We love to hate on the DMV. I wrote a piece defending the DMV once, and the number of people who wrote me letters to tell me their personal stories. Sorry, I was one of them. I figured, I thought, what, sounded like you? They were just like, you say the DMV is good. I was like, no, I'm saying if you have a problem at the DMV, you're like .5.

Oh, one percent. Yeah. But you take for granted that the whole population is there. So the point on oh, one percent is huge. Exactly. That's what people don't get. They don't get this about airports. They don't get this about the government. They don't get this about medicine. They don't get this about everything is.

It's almost impossible to understand what you have if you weren't around for when you didn't have it. And so like, I'll try and say this to my younger siblings with like phones and technology and all this. I remember saying to my brother once, I said, you know what's crazy is in your life, you've never waited.

And he said, what do you mean? I said, your generation does not know the concept of waiting for something. And he's like, what do you mean? He said, I wait all the time. I said, no, you don't wait. I said, I used to stand in a line at any number of places. How does this sound like a hundred years ago? It really does. I used to stand in line at a post office. That's right. And all I could do, my only entertainment was to look at the back of the head of the person in front of me. That was it.

There was no what's happening in the news. There was no music. There was no video game. There was no sending messages. No, I stood there and I looked at the back of their head

for anything from 10 to 15 minutes and that was it. I would sit and wait for a bus to show up. I didn't know where it was. I didn't know when it was. I just stood there and I would judge generally by how many people were with me, whether or not I had made the right choice in timing. If there was no one, I'd be like, maybe I'm ahead of them or maybe they've left me. And if there's a bunch, okay. Now we're not the problem. The bus is the problem. But I was trying to explain this to him and I said to him,

And by the way, he wasn't even being a brat. We were just discussing it as like a fun thing. And I was like, man, it's amazing how you can't, you can't even appreciate that you don't wait because you've always never waited. You know, you know why things are not happening or happening. You know where your friend is. Do you remember just waiting for your friend somewhere? This was the thing I was thinking about. I, and I know this is a generational thing. And again, I really don't want to turn into an auntie, but you

you know, destiny. Or I say to somebody, you know, it used to be a thing that I'm going to meet you somewhere at two o'clock. I would just see you at two o'clock. Yes. Yeah. Now you have to share your location. Yeah. They want to know when you've left the house. They want to know when I've gotten in the car. They want to know how far away I am, where I'm going to park. Like there's all of this constant interaction, mostly because the idea to your point of waiting is like counterintuitive to everything. I'm like, I'm just going to see you at two. Yeah.

I'll get there. I get there. We'll see each other at two and it'll be fine. But I found that the level of anxiety that younger people have about not knowing your precise movement, location. I can't imagine. I don't want to be one of these people, but I cannot imagine that our brains have developed fast enough for that to be OK with us. No.

Yeah, it's just not. An 11-year-old asked me recently, what age was I when I got my first phone, my smartphone?

And I said, what do you mean, honey? How young was... The smartphone wasn't invented until I was like 25. What are you saying? She was like, I bet you got yours when you were 13. And I was like, at 13, I think we had just gotten call waiting. That's hilarious. And we ran it into the ground. That is hilarious. Right? And yet she can't fathom the idea because that was her point, by the way. She was like, I don't have anything to do when we're in the car because I don't have a smartphone. Yeah. I was like, you look out the window. Yeah.

I looked out the window for 20 years. But the concept, and I just don't think the brains are prepared. And I do think that a lot of what we see at sort of a societal scale is that chronic anxiety. Yeah. Everything should happen. I should be able to predict everything. You know, the total fear of any risk is.

Missing the bus. No big deal. You missed it. You waited for the next one. Now it would be considered like some major. I've seen people risk limbs being chopped off, amputated by the train. Yeah.

because they don't want to miss it as if another one will not be coming in five minutes. And the time they're saving is so that they can get home and scroll on TikTok. It's not like when they get home, they've got five moments to solve, you know, like some crazy equation that'll solve the universe. No, they're rushing just five minutes faster to get somewhere where they're going to then waste that time doing a thing. And the reason I say waste is because it's not like what they want to be doing. But as we wrap, Tressie, I want to know from you if like,

As a sociologist, as someone who's looked at societies and nations and the way things work, do you think that means the unfortunate ultimate conclusion is for, let's say, America and many parts of the world as we see now?

is the unfortunate conclusion that people will only appreciate it when it now breaks down for their generation. So will Americans only appreciate democracy when Trump has completely obliterated it? Will people only appreciate free speech when it's been ripped away? Will women appreciate the advances that were made by other women when they no longer have it? I am so sorry to say this. Like, I am so sorry you asked me this question because I have an answer. I've thought about it so much and it is not a good or fun answer.

But yes, I don't want to be dystopian. I actually don't think it'll be like, you know, I don't think it'll be the type of revolution that maybe some of us imagine and hope for. And I don't think it is like a complete, you know, reversal of rights. But I do think it will take the firsthand experience of the loss of a functioning bureaucratic state, of the type of security. I don't think we understand how much like

emotional security we get from knowing the government works, from not having to worry about whether water's coming, for not having to worry about whether when you call 911, is somebody coming. And can I say something? For some reason, every American city I've lived in, I've been there at a crucial, catastrophic event. So I was in New York during COVID and

I was in Austin, Texas when the first snowstorm happened that collapsed a grid. So we had no power and had this one-year-old child and it was freezing and no help came. People even died. And there was people that used their fire

place yeah and then I've also was in LA during the fires oh we should maybe quarantine you oh I'm the problem I know no I'm the problem it's me but like LA during the fires and it's like you're using this app actually which is telling you where all the fires are and how contained they are etc etc and that's when you kind of realize that you're like

oh, this is teetering on the edge, especially in Texas. Yes. When it was like, oh, this is a grid that's not connected to any other grid. This is a state with no income tax, only has property taxes. So it's not like there's like voluminous income to like help people. It was a Republican utopia. Yeah. And you're like, I think that's already what happened in North Carolina. This stuff is already happening. We're having these events that are showing you if America gets into like a real disaster. That's right. It's going to fall apart very quickly.

quickly. And like the LA fires was the moment I was like, oh, there wasn't enough water, but this guy could get a private fire service to protect his malls. That's right. Yeah. And people can see it firsthand. The American sickness though, is that they would look at that story and go, the solution isn't more taxes. The solution for me is I need to become that rich guy. Yeah. I want to be rich. That's the American disease that we look at that

And what we diagnose, again, back to like the wrong diagnosis. It was like, oh, if I want the state to work for me, I just better become rich.

Now, everybody cannot, of course, be rich, which is why we created governments. But what we don't understand, I think Texas is a great example of this. Texas is like, again, one of these, you know, utopian political realities for people who believe in like the core tenets of the GOP's political platform. But it only works because everybody around them is not.

a Republican utopia. You need the government to be somewhere. And so you can only be a state like Florida. You can only be a state like Texas that says, we don't use the federal government. See us, you know, big F you to the federal government. Well, yeah, you know that because all of the rest of us, however, fund it and keep it going and you draw from it and you still need it, right? People learn that during COVID. We saw it firsthand.

The thing about this country is our need for ongoing amnesia about how vulnerable we are keeps us from doing the right diagnosis. Yeah, you look at that and go, the rich guy was able to get private firefighters, you

And you go, okay. And I guarantee he's going to be mayor. I think he's going to run again for mayor. And people are like, oh, he needs to be our mayor. Because look, he kept his malls. He solved the problem. He's going to say to you, you see, I was able to do this. I'll do this for all of you. And that's how Trump won, by the way. That is exactly right. Trump won by saying, look at what I've done with my life. I will do this for your life. And then we go back there. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, all right. Thanks, y'all. That really was great. That gave me a lot to think about. Thank you. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jodi Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer.

Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Braun. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?

NEA's Read Across America campaign celebrates a nation of diverse readers with recommended books, authors, and teaching resources that promote diversity and inclusion. However, certain politicians are banning books with characters representing diverse perspectives and experiences, including books about Martin Luther King and the Trail of Tears.

But let's be honest, all students deserve access to diverse, age-appropriate books. So, help us celebrate and protect the joy of reading for all of America's students. Learn more at readacrossamerica.org.