Meet Derek Fordjour – One of My Favorite People [VIDEO]
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How do you know when something's finished? I think there's a creeping feeling that you get where you're like, I'm not making this better. You know, it's kind of like when you're in a barber's chair, like the longer you're there, this guy can only remove hair. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, exactly. You shouldn't be there too long.

It's like a moment that if you're like, it's been a while. You want to look for a mirror. So it's diminishing returns in a way. Yeah, like there's a point where you're like, if I stay in this, it's not going to get better. I'm sure you like write a joke and you're like, that's too many words. I did too much to get there. You know, it's enough. Leave it. There's like a instinct, right? Yeah, mine I think is more, do I still feel this way? Yeah, that's the same thing. Yeah, that's more mine.

My guest on today's podcast is someone I'm lucky enough to call a friend and a human being who has achieved one of the hardest things in the world, which is becoming extremely successful in

And genre-defying in many ways as an artist. I always think about how crazy it must have been back in the days to be friends with someone like Picasso or Michelangelo or any of those people. And I'm not comparing artists, but for me, Derek Forgeau is the modern equivalent.

He's an artist, he's a painter, a sculptor, one of my favorite people who's able to bring history, identity and joy to life in a way that stops you in your tracks. We've known each other for a while now, and I've always been inspired by how deeply he sees the world and how beautifully he translates that onto the canvas. And so in this conversation, we get into how art messes with value in the best way possible.

why all work is kind of a scam, and what it means to create beauty, even when no one's buying it yet. I think you're really going to walk away from this conversation with your mind spinning, and hopefully your heart full, just like I always do. This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter.

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Derek Forger, what's going on, man? Hello, Trevor. How are you going to go and get a blocked nose when we're doing a podcast? Bro, you blow me up immediately about the nose. No, because you know why? I'm self-conscious about it. No, but okay, let me explain. First of all, I apologize. I didn't know you were self-conscious about it. The reason I have to call it out is because some people will be hearing your voice for the first time. That's true. Some people. That's true. And then they'll think...

That that's how you speak. Yeah, I have a very different voice than what I have today. Yeah, yeah. Right? So it's similar, but I know you're nasally today. You can tell, yeah. But you say you're not sick. Well, I can't be sick. I'm an American. Let me tell you, I worked at The Daily Show. I was in the office for eight years. I hosted for seven years. No one ever admitted being sick. The entire time? No one. But wouldn't you say that's also like entertainment culture? Like nobody wants to like...

Like, first of all, you're the boss. To each other, do they admit it? Oh, that's a good question, actually. I never considered my position of power. No, you don't. Because you're such a man of the people. You just don't. I actually really never considered that. Yeah, you don't think about that. No, you know what it also is? It's because in South Africa, we don't really have that. What, like, oh, the culture of... Yeah, like, I think in America more than most places, maybe in Europe, actually...

to a certain extent, the hierarchy in an office place is respected in a different way. Oh, it's true. It's true. So managers don't realize that rooms move differently when they step into them. Not at all. Yeah. But I would argue in most parts of at least South Africa, I know for sure, yeah, there's like a boss and a manager, but a lot of the time that person just came from where you were. Right, exactly. So there's a certain level of familiarity. Yeah, it's true. I mean, even in Ghana, I mean, there's this wonderful...

thing you observe right away where the boss and his subordinate may hold hands, like same sex. And it's a way of like, let me have a chat with you. And that's totally normal to hold hands. In fact, by the time we leave, my brother and I hold hands while we're walking around. See, you're trying not to smile because you've been- I'm not trying not to smile. I'm smiling. Your smile is just growing. Yeah, right? The whole thing.

This is completely normal. No, no. Okay, I'll tell you why I was smiling. Why? Because I was thinking, because I'll start by saying this. I'm not ignorant to the idea of men holding hands. You know this, yeah. Because in South Africa, same thing. So depending on where you're from, people would hold hands. I remember in the Middle East, men hold pinky fingers. I don't know what they do in Ghana. Do they hold full hands? No, they hold pinky fingers. It's quite normal. You lock pinkies.

Two friends, men. It's sweet. Yeah, and you walk hand in hand. It's just a pinky that's... Yeah, you see, everyone thinks one part of it is weird. Yeah. What I found weird in that situation is there's something almost more threatening. Yeah.

In your boss calling you and giving you the hand. Hey, let me hold my hand. Let me talk to you for a second. That is scarier. The idea that somebody is going to berate me or chastise me while holding my hand. It's true. That could be, it could be threatening. But this is the trauma I think I have from being a kid. The worst beating you would get is where your parent was holding on to you. Oh yeah. Cause you can't run. Yeah. You can't run. You know about this. I haven't talked about this in years. Talked about what?

Being beaten. Like affectionately. Like affectionately. Well, we're speaking about it affectionately. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it's normal. We joke about the objects with which I was hit. I mean, I didn't want to talk. What was the craziest object you got hit with? The craziest object was probably skillets and pots.

Oh, okay. Because it's a kitchen. Thrown or hit? Both, man. Okay. I mean, it was me, though. I have two brothers. They were great. She never, I mean, they didn't require anything. You're victim blaming. Don't blame yourself. Can I tell you? I'm not for it. Right. But it was quite normal. It was. I never got hit with a pot or a pan. Yeah.

Because my mom didn't cook much. So I think that's probably why I was saved from that environment. Yeah. But I got hit with everything. Really? High heels. High heels were terrible. I'm not laughing either. There's nothing funny about that. I got hit with high heels. Very few belts, I guess, because my mom didn't really wear belts. You've thought about this too. Yeah. I mean, I think. Okay, I'll tell you why.

So now that I am at an age where I think my mom accepts that I'm an adult and I feel like I'm an adult. And you're the same plane with her. Yeah. You can both reflect. I've now decided to like open up the statute of limitations and say to her, yo lady, what were you doing? Did you try it? Did you soft try something to see if she was ready? Cause you have to. I think every few years I probably said something to her. Okay. See, that's still respect. Yeah. Like maybe in my twenties, maybe in my twenties I said to her,

oh, man, the beatings you used to give me. And the way she'd react would be like, you want another one? That's exactly. That's my mom. Right. Where are both of your parents from? Both of my parents are from Ghana. You're first generation, right? First generation, same tribe. So both of my parents are Asante. So, you know, we say Ashanti, but in Ghana we say Asante, but 100%. So I remember my dad telling me in the, oh, I don't know, I must have been in kindergarten because...

I'm going to tell you something. He sat me down and he goes, if the entire Ashanti kingdom perishes tomorrow, but you're alive, then the Ashanti kingdom lives. And that's the way he explained where we were from and what it meant to be part of a tribe, that the entire kingdom lives in you.

And mind you, I've been like Tennessee having this conversation as like a kindergartner. But that was like the early framing of like what's in our blood, you know? Sounds like the opening of a Black Panther movie. Yes.

It really does. The trilogy. Scene opens up. Right. Young Derek. Right. Little black kid in Tennessee. That's right. 100%. Camera comes into like the little house. Where did you live? A house, I'm assuming? In Memphis. A small little house in Memphis. It was a little apartment actually at that time. A little apartment. Yeah, even better. Marvel loves apartments. Could we start with the kid? Superheroes love apartments. It has to be an apartment. Apartments are better than houses for superheroes. But it has to start with the kid being bullied, being called African booty scratcher. Were you called that?

Were you not? I was in Africa. Who's going to call me that? That's true. This is true. That would be awkward. Who was going to say to me, ah, Trevor, you're an African booty scratcher. I'm like, yeah, we're all African booty scratchers. What do you mean? No, it's true. Wait, you got called African booty scratcher. Totally. It's a thing. This was the full sentence. My son was called the same thing. No, you're lying. I was shocked. I'm telling you. This is now. Now. I was like, what? I was like, I thought he was spoofing me.

It's like, no, it's a thing. Well, it's a funny thing because-

And the entire village helped conspire to get him to America to become a doctor. So he tells a story. I have no idea how true any of this is of like leaving the village with a bag of money that everybody pitched in to,

give him on his journey away. So he literally was like saving the entire, he was going to be a doctor. Wow. That was the deal. And then my mother left at 16. So this is like a village village then. Yeah. Well, my dad was from Kumasi, which is like another, it's like a second city after Accra. Have you been to Ghana? I've never been to Ghana. What? You're going to take me? Trevor. Really? You have not? I'm going to take you. I don't want to.

So I talk to my friends about this all the time. Anywhere in Africa, I don't want to just go as a tourist. I'd rather go visit. I want to go to visit my friend's house. Because going as a tourist is too familiar to me.

Like if I go as a tourist to Italy, it is very much, I'm like, oh, wow, this is Italy. Right, you get a guide. When I'm in Ghana, I know the food. I know the music. That's right. I even understand the people. Of course you do. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I need my people there to take me deeper. It's a very different thing. Otherwise, what am I going to do? I'm going to take pictures of little African kids. Stay in your hotel. Right. Come on. Drive by. It's true. Okay, so you want to hang differently. Yeah. And we struggle with this too because-

Unfortunately, my brothers and I don't speak the language, which is, I mean, language is the past key to culture. No, it is the thing. It's the thing. So we don't have that. And even though we're English speaking because of the British, it's still different. So when I go without my parents, it feels really different. There's like a piece of Ghana that you're locked out of. A little bit. It's like you approach the groups while everybody's speaking three and they change completely.

because it's polite to do. They want you to hear, but you're still like- - It's not the same. - It's not the same. - South Africans will do the same thing. - Yeah. - But you can feel that it's almost like someone took the spice in a meal and washed it and then gave it to you. - 'Cause you can't handle the spice. Look, there is that, of all the places, I mean, Ghana is the most welcoming

to English speakers, to people returning home, yearning for culture. It's the best place. - Isn't it getting overrun by Americans now though? - Stop saying that. - I asked a question. - Overrun? - I'm not saying anything. - No, you know why I say that? - I said, isn't it? There's a question mark at the end of it. - No, I won't say that. The kid that was called African booty scratcher needs all of those kids that called him that to return. So there's no overrun. We need more to go back.

So you're saying no, it's not. I'm saying no. Okay. Okay. I'm saying no. I've heard a lot of stories. I'm saying no, but I also know what you're saying. Like, I'm saying one thing with my eyes.

and another with my mouth, right? We can do this, right? So, no, it's not overrun. Can I tell you, my favorite stories have been my Ghanaian friends complaining about black Americans coming to Ghana, and they'll complain about them as if they're white people. Oh, totally. I mean, on some level, I mean, that's... But look, I choose to stand for the marrying of...

the marriage of like the African cultural experience and the African American and the British American and everywhere else in the diaspora we exist. I mean, I think you definitely represent that. Oh, I love it. And so that's what I'm on. You know what I mean? Okay. Like it's not overrun. There's space enough. Okay. But you know what's happening is now they're like encampments and suburbs that are for like African Americans and it's being marketed as such. Okay.

And so as an African-American, you could buy a home in the like. In an African-American enclave in Ghana. I think it's fine. I don't know. I mean, if it works, it works. That's a big if, right? But it brings people back. We have to take you to a slave castle.

Because, have you ever been to any? Huh. That's a sentence that's never done well. Let me watch you deal with it. That's a... Let me watch you deal with that. I don't feel like there's ever been a time in history when that sentence has ended well. But you have to experience the Sleika. Because, first of all, I didn't know that you hadn't done this. So I'm even more convicted about it. I've been to slave castles, but I need to know why this one in particular. Okay. Well, I think there's a moment, well, at least for me.

where you go to the door of no return yeah and it's in all the castles oftentimes it'll be like the port near the port somewhere there that's right they bring them in and there's a little area where they're going to get loaded onto a boat and that's the area of no return that's right yeah so it's similar in the one i went to was in zanzibar yes yes very similar so first of all i mean east african slave trade was different um just as brutal but um

I think the dynamics are different east-west, but there's always that moment in the castle where you stand between where you are and where you're going. And for me, when I stand there, I get it. I get the whole diaspora. I understand my experiences in Brazil, in Canada, in...

you know, parts of Europe where there are Africans, like, I get it. Like, we all came through that door. And I don't know that there's another physical location that explains the movement of black peoples in the world quite like that point for me. No, I feel you. You know, what have you experienced there? I mean, it's a complicated collection of feelings because on the one hand, there's relief, I'll be honest. There's relief that it is now history.

Right, that it's there. Yeah. So like I know what I mean by that is it's over. Yeah, there's there is something I feel whenever I go to these places where I'm like, damn, I'm glad that's done. Right. I know there's other things to deal with, but I'm like, I'm glad that's done. Right. That's true. You know, because I could also be here, but not as a tourist. But you feel that in your body, too. Yeah. There's just like an element of, OK. Oh, I mean, then there's another side of me that's like, damn, this is it's heavy. It's dark. Yeah. For instance, I've never taken a picture there.

And not because I judge people who do take pictures there. I just... Yeah. There is something. It's like a sacred site. Yeah. It's like I go, do I take a picture of me here? And then how do you... What expression do you make? Do I smile? I've seen them all. I've seen the smiles. I've seen the fists. I've seen the somber. Yes. The somber. You see the somber. Yeah. And I get it because those are all the feelings that people are having. But let's go back to your dad because I want to understand... Yeah.

this journey of Derek because I because I know you this is yeah this is the thing I love about doing uh podcasts with people I know is I realize how many things I don't know about them exactly because I would never ask this in a conversation no we've taken all the spice out essentially yeah yeah but um it's a version of ourselves yeah it always will be um but like your dad so your dad comes here yeah was he already married to your mom

No, but they were dating and we found some lovely love letters that they wrote to each other. So my mom went to school in England for nursing. Yeah. And- And your dad was going to be a doctor? Yeah. Isn't that- Man, you guys are Ghanaian. Right. This is like Ghanaian. Right. Right.

Proudly, doctor, lawyer, engineer. - Right. Exactly. - This is it. - Right. - A real traditional. - This is a real professional. - This is a profession. - It's a proper. - Yeah, that's like a, you know. - Doctor, nurse. - Okay, so wait. So your parents, so you're born in the US.

I am born in Memphis, Tennessee. Why Memphis? I always want to know why immigrants land where they do and why they call that home. Dude, I really want someone to research African immigration. Like we know the story of how the Irish came. We know how the Italians came.

But I don't know that anyone has really studied the movement of Africans to America. And I would just love to hear the story because we have so many cousins, Ghanaian and Nigerian, in these far out places in Ohio or Texas, Tezaz, we call it, like all these places. And we're just now of age to share experiences. But I think it happened like maybe the 60s is when it really picked up.

But yeah, so my dad came here. My mother was in England for nursing school. And there were all these strange things about growing up, like we would eat beans with our eggs in the morning. And I just thought this is what people, it's normal. Until you like share with a friend, like, wait, you guys don't eat beans? They're like, beans? Why are you eating beans for breakfast? Were you in a black neighborhood or white neighborhood? We were all so black. I said African booty scratcher.

Follow Trevor. Come on. No, but come on. How am I supposed to know? I don't even know the term. Listen, white kids are not going to call you African booty scratcher.

Generally speaking. That's just too, like they just. It's too what? It's a too a lot of things. It's too what? It's a lot of things. It could be a lot. I have a list. Like why they wouldn't say that. I don't know why. First of all, there's too many syllables. It's too funny. It's too, you know what I mean? Okay. Okay. You mean on that side, you say it's too much swag. It's just a lot of swag. It's like an insult that will also make you laugh. It like hurts and tickles you in equal parts. That's very black. It's very African. Okay.

You know what I mean? Like, I'm offending you and you love it. So we grew up in a very black community. And we're talking about, you know, the 70s, 80s. So this, you know, Memphis, I mean, Dr. King died in 68. Yeah, this is full on segregation. Yeah, so my father actually was just learning a lot about like the rage he had about like going to graduate school, to dental school, because he was like, I think the second black oral surgeon in the state,

But he's very African, so he doesn't know about black history. They don't know about like American history. Yeah, they don't know. I also wish that there was like a place that if you come from an African country, you could go like learn black history before you engage with society. Why? Well, because what it means to be a black immigrant, as we're seeing this time, I mean, this statement now has lots of weight. You also have the double burden of understanding racial politics, right?

So you don't just enter. It's a bit like you enter a game in action when you are an African-American when you come to America. But you have on a jersey, and you're on a side, and you're losing. And the refs are really mean. Oh, that's a great analogy. Oh, man, that's a great analogy. But don't get hit. Balls are flying. So...

But nobody explains, you know, the history, the game. Yeah. I think that's why it creates a lot of conflict. Yeah. So I remember the first time I discovered this, I was...

I was doing comedy shows. This was like way back, way, way, way back. Long before Daily Show, long before anything. Oh, wow. Okay. So I was doing stand-up shows at colleges around the US. Oh, that's a good education. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then one day I got booked. I forget where this university was, but I got booked by the African Student Council. The African Student Union. Yeah, the African Student Union. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So I get booked by them. Right. And so I get to the campus.

And I asked mistakenly, I said, I'm looking for the African-American Student Union. Wrong group. Yeah. And these people were like, oh, we'll take you there. And they took me there. And you were like. And I got there and they went.

wait, no, we didn't. And no one knows me. So it's not like someone's going, oh, Trevor Noah. They're just like, what are you here for? I said, I'm here for comedy. This is great. They're like, where? I was like, oh, the African American Student Union booked me. They're like, nah, we don't have any bookings today. Right. It goes around, goes, I call my managers, my team. Oh, this is great. Finally gets back. They go, no, you're at the wrong place. It's the African Student Union. Right. So they come and pick me up. Right. And when we're in the car going across campus, I go, what am I missing here? Why are these two groups? Right.

And then they tell me, oh, there used to be one union, which was the school called the Black Student Union. And they said there was so much friction between the non-American black students. Do you see my heart? Yeah, I can see it already. I can see I'm triggering you here. You know, when I hear that, I hear the tragedy in a few ways. One, that blackness is flattened.

to just black because it's quite heterogeneous. There's a lot of mix inside of that. We know this. Even as a West African and a South African, there's worlds of difference. So it's kind of absurd to fit it all in the first place to black. So that's one tragic thing. The other is the splintering that happens and then the potential tensions that arise. Yeah.

which are not always the case. Everybody's kind of happy when they have their own place. But it never absolves you from the unfortunate necessity that you must advocate collectively. Yes, because you are oppressed collectively. That's right. So the splintering is comfortable for entertainment, for culture, so long as you can reunite people

when it's time to advocate, but that doesn't always happen. Yeah, that doesn't. So that's the tragedy that I feel, right? One that is already flattened in the first place, but also it splinters a collective action. It also creates a type of resentment I found. So for instance, I would meet African immigrants. Mm-hmm.

who would speak about African Americans, they would just be like, why don't they? They're like Republican in their vibes. They're like mean white people. Yeah. Worse, actually. If we're honest. Well, worse because they're entitled. They don't want to walk. Yes, exactly. Let me tell you something about black Americans. You don't crack me up with this. They don't want to walk. I've heard this. Yes. They don't go to school. They love to do crime. All of these axes. Why are you wasting this? They love to do crime. They love to do crime.

Let me tell you something. They love to do crime. They are not African-American. They are just American. I don't know why they put African. The way they are dressing, their pants, their trousers are falling. And you're like, wow, this is like full on. Dude, I have relatives like this. That's why I love the idea of having a school. Yes.

Because what will happen to a lot of Africans, and I'm sure you've seen this, is a lot of those Africans who come in with like the respectability politics. Yes, yes. One day they come up against the brunt of American racism in some way, shape or form. That's right. And they're shaken forever. Forever. I mean, I have also that point. I have an uncle, Uncle Manny, he's now passed away.

And it wasn't until his later years that he talked about... He lived in Minnesota. Lisa, my cousin Lisa. He raised her. And he talked about being used because he realized that, oh, I wasn't angry. So he came in the 60s, had success as a corporate guy, but he was a token. And I don't want to reduce his life. I mean, he was a hardworking man. No, yeah, I'm with you. But in his later years...

Looking back now with a black understanding of the identity, he's like, oh, man, I think they used me. You know, like, I think I was part of this game. And it really is, you're talking about those moments. Sometimes it happens later. I hope, Trevor, that we're in a different world now where social media is

It's cool. Like you see Nigerian weddings. You have these shows. Like kids, if you're six, seven, eight in today's world, you have Afrobeats. There's all this cultural export. It's just like a different time. And I mean, maybe I'm, I don't want to be Pollyanna, but I just think it's different. I've noticed more kids growing up today are comfortable with their culture in ways that kids weren't before. Totally. Like I know, I know.

All of my Indian friends growing up were, I mean, they were ashamed of, especially if they grew up in England. Yeah, it was just like, don't open your lunchbox. We all had that. And now, on TikTok, people are like, where do I find the best igusi? Where do I find the best jollof rice? You know what I mean? It's not even just a pride, but there's almost...

I don't know, man. There's this character that comes with it now. Yeah, but it's also not just comfort. It's cool. It is cool. I think that's a very important distinction. Comfort happened some while back. Now, cool is definitely the thing. Yeah. Like to be African and to live in America, I think it's cool. When I grew up, it was kind of like we would say to our black friends, like, you know, yeah, I'm Ghanaian. They're like, look at you, man.

African where? Do a dance. Stand up. You know, I was like, bro, I'm really African. Like, trust me. Say something. You know, it was like that kind of like shakedown. And now that we're older, we realize that they also just didn't

That splintering, they didn't want to happen. And then there was also this envious thing. Yes. Because they're like, dude, we don't know where we came from. We don't know our origins. When we got old enough, they talked about that. I was like, oh, that was part envy. They admired it on some level, and they were also envious of it. And I also appreciated differently what it means to go back to the town of my mother's mother.

That is like the, you know, we are matrilineal. But to know that is to like locate your lineage. That's part of the slow violence that happened in America. Yeah, I'll often say we talk about slavery as being one of the most heinous things that happened in history, and it is. Yeah. But I don't think we speak enough about it.

how cruel it was to not just steal a people from their place, but steal a place from their people. - Oh, there you go. - Do you know what I mean? - That's what happened on the other side. - Because they robbed people. I think of it for myself, right? There are moments when the world will throw you around. People wanna label you, not label you. - Of course. - No matter what it is, if I pause and I breathe,

I go, you can take everything away from me. You can even take my citizenship from a country. I'm not South African anymore. But you know what? My Xhosa lineage, I can paint it for you. I can paint it for you and I can show you each little, like, you know what I mean? Which name took us where and how. Do you get what I'm saying? And I think that thing, people take for granted how beautiful it is.

Yes. To know why you do what you do. Yes. Because it comes from a long story that was told before you. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. So I remember Roots. I don't know if so. The show? Yeah, the show. Right. Exactly. So they had a few iterations of it. But when we grew up, it was the first iteration from Alex Haley, the author who wrote Roots.

And it was, I think, for a long time, like the most watched miniseries. Black, white, American households were obsessed with Roots. Yeah. And it created a narrative for African-Americans that,

that explained their roots in this very detailed, multi-generational story. The old African, you see Kuntekinte as a young man, and then you see him as an old African. And so Kuntekinte was in the lexicon, in the whole thing. And then years later, we found out that some of the details in that story were fabricated.

that Alex Haley wrote. And so it wasn't all true. When it came out, it was like, this is all true. This is factual. And that was part of the strength of it. And then years later, we found out that some of it wasn't true and it didn't matter because people needed a story.

I think it also doesn't matter because all stories aren't true. Exactly. History is itself a fabrication. I love your bit about nations and anthems. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's like it's all. And so, I mean, I love both sides of that, that I knew it when it was factual and it was, and then when it was something that was falsified and it didn't matter. The power did not, the power of the story didn't change.

How do you think that informs your art? Because when I think of your art, I think of you as a storyteller. And not in like a highfalutin way, by the way. Like let's preface all of it by saying this. Yes, Derek Forgeau is easily considered by many, especially who like know what they're talking about. You're considered a luminary of the art world. Oh, wow. No, you really are. And it's not easy to get to the place that you've gotten to. Well, thank you. Like in the art world. It's also, let's be honest, it's...

five times harder to get there as a black man, like randomly, like a black person. - Well, that's everything. - Yeah, but I think less so in the NBA. Let's put it that way. - Oh, Trevor, you say some of the wildest things. - What are you talking about? - And it's totally appropriate. - I'm saying there are some areas that are still way harder to get into. - Could you give me another one? 'Cause that was good. - As a black person. - Give me one more. One more. - What do you mean? - Like, just another one. Like, so we have the NBA. - You wanna go into music. If you're a black man walking into music, no one's going like, "Hmm, I don't know."

Let's hear something. I don't know about that. Let's hear what he made of. No. That's true. But the art world. You're right. You're right. This is true. The art world is the most gate-kept gatekeeping that has ever existed in the history of gatekeeping. That's fair. So what I want to, like, so the reason I want to preface it with that is because your art holds a special place in the storytelling. Yes.

Of the intersection, I believe, between African American history. Yes. You know? But I want to know how much the idea you just talked about informs how you perceive your art. Because what you just said was crucial, right? We all need stories. Right. Right. But the facts of the story are less relevant than the story itself. Well, I think, like, I love the question. And I think about...

I think about you that way. Like, the shock I just had about what you just said. You have the authority, the moral authority, to make certain comments. No, man, I just have authority with you. What do you mean? You've got authority with me. If you're offended, then I'm screwed. What kind of authority you got with me? Yeah.

You know what I mean? It's like, if you're a friend, there's only, I mean, we're friends. It's true, it's true. It's very true. But I mean, even publicly, right? I just think sometimes what you do, and I understand why you'll do this. I actually think it's a very African thing. You will dismiss, a lot of people do this. You'll dismiss how hard it was for you to get there. There's a certain element of you being like, no, no, no, it's hard for all of us. And I'm not saying it's not hard for everyone. Right. But I'm saying what you chose was particularly hard. I mean, it's true.

Okay, so it's true. This is hard because you know me. This is what's hard about talking to you. And let me clarify this for people. I don't mean painting is hard. Art is already hard. I'm talking about getting into the art world and being considered...

A verifiable part of it. Yes. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. So now you're forcing me to have a real conversation. I mean, that's why we're here. I guess that's why I'm here. Well, that's why we always... I'm like, damn. When have we not had a real conversation? Yeah. This is what he does. Because I'm so well attuned to like...

the conversation given the context and how it's going to be received. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. And so there's a lot of posturing and withholding that's necessary because with art, you want the conversation to be about the work and you don't want the...

the traps to happen where it gets into places that you have no investment. You see, but that's something I feel like is also unique to a black artist. It is. I'll give you an example. Absolutely. Vincent van Gogh. Yeah. Very good at that pronunciation. Yeah. I mean, you have to be. You've been to the museum? Did you go? Actually, I haven't. Haven't I? I haven't either. I haven't. I don't think I have. Okay. But they never talk about his art without talking about his story. Right.

His health, his mental health, the way he saw the world, what he was going through, the medicine he was on. Picasso. I've never heard anyone talk about Picasso and just be like, hey, Picasso, the painting. No, they'll tell you about his journeys and his travels to Africa and the way he saw women and the loves. The passion. The loves who informed him and how his heart was broken. You know what I mean? The mistress. There is no artist.

Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, you name it. There are none of them where their story is not part of their art. Oh, this is true. And it's never seen as an excuse. It's never seen as something that leaves a blemish on their work in any way. However...

to your point, with black artists, I find, for the most part, in speaking to you and many other black artists, the art world wants your story. That's right. But not like the rough edges of it. Not the messy parts of it. Yeah, not the messy parts of it. Right, right. I was looking at this idea called stereotype threat, which I came across 20 years ago. There's a guy named Claude Steele who talks about not racism, the anticipation of

of racism happening has deleterious effects. Like, if I don't even encounter it, but I think on the other side of this door it might happen, it affects how I present myself. - Damn.

Right? And Schrodinger's racism. I like that. Right. So stereotype threat is an additional anxiety. There's the thing, which is actually racism. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That you have to contend with. But your anticipation of it, how you steal yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How you, you know, that is also like very anxious. So that's a lot of what my work is about is the strategy of,

the gamesmanship necessary to traverse a troubled space, right? And the art world, and you're right, has been troubled. It's tough for us, but I have to acknowledge that

all of the artists that came before me and my peers to make this moment possible. I sound like I'm giving a war speech, but I think it's really just important to acknowledge because those are the artists that people just don't know at all. Who would you say are the black artists who made the art world see black art differently or open the art world to black people? Can you think of just a few? And I'm not saying they're the only ones. No, no, no, for sure. Just a few. It's a complicated question because...

There's a moment that the art world starts to take notice of black artists. But then there have been artists working way before that that were just never acknowledged at all. So there's a lot of retrospective work that's happening to acknowledge art. So it's kind of like saying, like if we were to use an NBA analogy, like we all know like Michael Jordan was the first guy that showed us you could have

commercial success while you have success on the court, right? So there's no Colby, there's no LeBron without Jordan, but there was also Dr. J, right? I'm with you. And there was also Wilt Chamberlain, right? And so there's so many people behind him. I would say probably David Hammonds. David Hammonds. Yeah. And actually on the pier here in New York, I mean, there's a wonderful monument that he has across from

the Whitney Museum, I think it personifies perfectly why so many people might not know the name David Hammons. There's a full-blown monument that costs tens of millions of dollars to build, and I spoke to the director of Whitney about this, so it's a big thing for them.

but you could pass it a million times and never notice it. It has thin wire frame to outline what used to be the piers on the West Side Highway. So he just framed a building. So you can miss it, and he's okay with that. And this is part of the genius of David Hammons. His presence is as fascinating as his absence. And he's done some of the most compelling things

conceptual projects like he sold snowballs on the street like for for an exchange like people bought snowballs and that's that's that's an artwork hmm right this is this is David Hammons I mean that's one of his more popular artworks but he can hide in plain sight he played like the art nobles that actually melts yeah okay but you can buy one okay it opens up this amazing commentary on commerce

What are you buying? What is exchange? Where is value? I feel like there are fields that people get into that don't reveal how essential they are to society immediately. So when you look at fashion, a lot of people just go, oh man, fashion, whatever. They very seldom look at how fashion plays

can include or exclude them from a space and make them seem like they're supposed to be or not be somewhere. That's right. Do you know what I mean? A simple example is like just a suit. Just a suit in and of itself. Immediately became a signifier. Yes.

as to whether or not you were deemed respectable enough to step into certain establishments. - Absolutely. - Right? And so you look at how MLK used a suit. - Yes. - And he was like, "All right, guys, we're wearing suits." - That's right. - "We're gonna go get beaten up." - That's right. - "It'll be way easier--" - And we're broke. - Yeah. "It'll be easier to wear hoodies." - Yes. - "With more comfortable." - That's right. - "We're gonna get beaten up." - Or beat down. A lot easier. - "You're gonna get beaten up, why wear a suit?" - That's right. - The man said, "We're gonna wear a suit because the suit represents something and it says something." - That's right. I love this. - Right? - Yes.

And I remember speaking to someone in fashion about this, how they were like, oh, a lot of people think of fashion as just being whatever. But even look at sizing, for instance. When sizes become more accommodating, more people feel like they're part of the world now. That's right. It's small things and yet it's powerful. No, no, because you're talking about the power of images. Yes. Architecture was another one. Most people don't care about architecture. Don't think about it. Most people. Right. And most people...

are affected by architects in ways that they would never, ever imagine from like a bench that tells you whether or not you can or should sit at a park all the way through to how your house sits in relation to another house, telling you whether you should greet your neighbor or not. And some people are like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, no, no, no. Architects have showed me some other worlds. That's right. Let me add to that. And then when we open this conversation even more broadly to African architecture and different modes of architecture

creation and domicile and public space and the plaza, it's a big conversation, but it's invisible to most of us. What you're talking about relative to the suits and respectability, you'll see a lot of suits in my paintings because of that. It's a signifier. It's a code about how to navigate space, how to anticipate space,

a certain perception and then to use it for your benefit, which is why, back to Hammond's, his invisibility is as crucial as his visibility, right? And so when we talk about representation, over-representation, under-representation, I kind of jokingly say, like, if you ever went to see the doctor and all the doctors were six feet tall and they were Black guys,

we would all whisper a question to someone. And I joke, my little brother Rick is a dentist, right? And I talk about him all the time because I used to get on my brother's about wearing expensive shoes. And I'd be like, bro, I would never pay that much money for shoes. You guys are ridiculous. And I just thought like when you were saying earlier about the way Africans critique African-Americans. You're paying $400 for shoes, $300. And my brother's like, hey, man, they look at my shoes.

Oh, damn. And I was like, oh, he's right. He's like the only black doctor in a practice of four doctors. The other three are white doctors. And they look at his shoes. And he feels that.

And so there's this tax where he's going to spend more on shoes when his partners, arguably, I don't know what they're wearing in real life, but I mean, in theory. Yeah, but their competence. Yeah, it's not connected to. It's not connected to their appearance. All of these conversations are embedded in the codes of my work because I feel like it's additional pressure. I mean, to take us full circle back to your question about what it means to be black and to enter this space. Yeah.

One, it's impossible without our forebears. And I've even had dealers at different times where we would talk about the absence of Black artists, you know, 80s, 70s from the commercial art space. And they said, hey, man, the Blacks weren't making the good work. The Blacks are making the good work now, man. They got better. You guys are making the good work. That's why it's working. Right.

It just wasn't that good then. And I thought, wow, there are a lot of people that believe this. That's why I cannot talk about entering this space without shedding light on all of the ones so much further behind me. Because they really made it possible. There's an artist named Norman Lewis who we're going back now to bring his legacy forward. There was an exhibition at the –

Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Art, the curators in the middle of the exhibition had a letter that Norman Lewis wrote to Leo Castelli. Leo Castelli is a legendary dealer in New York and all of the art world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Norman Lewis's studio was right around the corner from Leo Castelli's gallery, like two blocks. And Norman Lewis had been writing letters to Leo Castelli to ask him to visit the studio.

And it never happened. And so the inclusion of that letter gave what you're talking about the kind of perspective of what it meant that Norman Lewis was able to make all of this work under those circumstances. I'm with you. Right? You're with me, right? And so I don't know. I feel like I'm in the space where it's cool.

and we can make money and you know, it's like looking at the NBA. I also have a friend whose dad played in the NBA and he worked and sold used cars in the off season. - He was pre-money. - He was pre-money. Same game, worked his heart, might have worked harder. Right, but doing the same thing.

Now it's time for a segment we call We're in the World, brought to you by Uber. Whether it's your best friend's wedding or your niece's first ballet recital, Uber is on their way so you can show up for what matters most. Uber, on our way. Christiana.

Do you want to know where I am now? Sometimes I feel like you get frustrated that I'm traveling. No, no, I'm interested because you get to travel and I don't. So I'm living vicariously through you right now. Oh, I like this. I like this. This is like a new vibe. Before you'd almost say it like I don't have a home. And now, yeah, no, now you say it open. Well, currently I am in your neck of the woods.

I'm in London. I came here for a friend's birthday party. And yeah, he took me everywhere, actually. I'm trying to go everywhere that I can go in London that I haven't been. So I'm trying to stay away from like the usual, you know, like Buckingham Palace. Oh yeah, you don't want to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like the eye. So I'm all in like Brixton and Hattie and Dalston. You're in the end. Yeah, yeah. And like Camden and all of these places. Yo, let me tell you something. London's a vibe.

It's great, especially when the weather's good. When the weather's good, it's one of the best cities in the world.

You see, I don't often go to London when the weather's not good. And what I don't like is how all of you Londoners say that. That sentence... That's crazy. I'm surprised that you've been to London and the weather's been good because normally it's just rainy and grey. Like, that's the London I know. Yeah, I mean, now and again, I'll bump into like a rainy grey day, but I don't... Let me put it this way. I've been to a few places in the world where more people immediately bring up the weather like a reason I should escape. Yeah.

So I go everywhere. I go everywhere in the world. But in London, I'll say to somebody, they'll go, oh, they go like, oh, Trevor, how are you enjoying London? Are you having fun? And I'm like, oh, I'm having a great time. They're like, oh, yeah. And the weather's been good. You're really lucky. You're really lucky, Trevor. It's not always like this. Oh, you should go before it changes. I'm like, yo, what is happening right now? What is happening right now? Just enjoy it.

It's being British. It's like the national pastime is to speak about the weather. So you're either complaining about it or you're happy about it. Those are the two states of emotion when it comes to the weather. Yeah, but I find it's more the Brits are complaining about it or they're complaining about how it normally is, but it's not now. So you'll go, this is nice. They're like, yeah, but it's not normally like this. Yeah, we're a nation of complainers. I don't know. I think it's lovely and I'm enjoying myself.

Well, that was today's Where in the World brought to you by Uber. Whether it's your best friend's wedding or your niece's first ballet recital, Uber is on their way so you can show up for what matters most. Uber, on our way. I'll often say to people, and I think I have this because comedy has been my profession. Yeah. I often will say to people, all work is a scam. I love this. Right?

I'm not saying things that people do are scams, but I'm saying work, the word work, all work is a scam. Yeah. Because the value of that work is merely assigned by those who have the resources. That's right. It's all arbitrary. Yes. You know, so that's why I was smiling at the snowball thing. That's why I had that because I'm like, oh man, yeah, that, and I try and explain this to people and they go like, no, no, no. But, but what about, and I'm like, listen, I'm not trying to offend anybody. Right.

But almost all our jobs are fake. Yes, they are. Okay. Absolutely. And we also assign a fake value to them. And that value shifts and moves. You know, one of the simple examples is like, if you think of like the computer game back in the day in the US. Yeah. It wasn't a really well-paying job. No, not at all. And women used to work as computers, as they called them, and they would like run those machines. That's right. Plug, plug, plug, plug. And then that was like a stable job and started growing. And the men came, took it over, and then...

It skyrockets. That's right. And if you look at most professions that are generally considered a woman's profession. When the men get involved. When the men get involved, the money goes up. Right. But when the women are involved, the money goes down. That's right. So nursing. That's right. Teaching. That's right. All these professions. Yes. But doctor. Oh, no, no, no, no. Money goes up. Money goes up. Money goes up. Money goes up. I actually want to know, though, like in the art world, I understand that things cost a lot of money. Yeah. Right.

But I know for myself and for most people, a lot of people will just be like, this world, it feels like a scam. It feels like people are just making it up. So for instance, I'll go with this. Many people do not question the price of a Louis Vuitton bag. Right. Because of the story they've been told. Yes. Because they love that actually. And enough people believe it. Yes. And they go, it's Louis Vuitton. That's right. Someone goes, oh, that's a Louis Vuitton. That's right. And then when you break it down into its components...

And people do this all the time. That's why YouTube's amazing. That's right. Someone will go, oh, it costs. $12. Whatever to make this Louis Vuitton bag. That's right. And they sell it to you for $2,000. That's right. And the same bag with the same level of artisan skill, the same level of everything. Yeah. Someone else is doing it for $300. That's right.

And you're buying it because of the Louis Vuitton of it all, right? In that world, I find people are less likely to question it. Same thing with cars. It's interesting, yeah. Right? People will buy a Ferrari. But really, all Ferrari has done is limit their supply. That's it. Focus on the demand. Tell a great story. Tell a great story. It is a fantastic car in many ways. But they could make more of them if they wanted to. Easily. Yeah. What do you think it is about art that like jars up with the everyman?

You know, that's a great question. And I think what you're asking about is not art. I think you're asking about value, the way the art world assigns value, right? That's exactly what I mean, yeah. And even more specific, we're talking about the art market, which is different than but related to art itself. It's an important distinction to make because I think out in the world,

Outside of the art world, much like the purse, we conflate the value or the price. We relate the price to the value, right? So we see a Louis Vuitton and automatically we know it's expensive. Yes. Right? In the art world, very differently, you will witness the cost of the Louis Vuitton bag go from $3 to $20 to $3 million. Yeah. Nothing about the bag has changed.

We don't tell a different story. We've added deluxe zippers. There's Wi-Fi in the bag. Nothing. When you bought it at three, it's the exact same bag.

And so that's what's baffling to people, that we don't even hide the fact that it's the same bag at $3 that it was at $3 million. You have so many people here in New York City who will tell you, oh, I paid $200 for my Warhol. Oh, like an original Andy Warhol? Yeah. They bought it for $200. 100%. And now it's worth? Oh, my gosh, $20 million. Ch.

Or Basquiat. Where were we? Oh, you think they would have sold it to you? Dude, you just talked about the suit. You talked about access. I'm saying, like, we cannot. Because access and value, all this stuff is related. So the question then becomes, who gets to pay that $3? Yeah, you're right. Who gets to pay the $3? Who has that intel?

That's what the Black artist represents and what's very complex about us entering the space because you can't have Black artists in the space without complicating the space for Black institutions, for Black collectors, for trustees. The entire ecosystem is affected when Black artists participate.

I'd like to also point to the entertainment industry when we had black comedians, actors, but you didn't have black ownership. You didn't have agents. You didn't have – it took a while, right?

to get the infrastructure. So we are now advocating for us to participate more globally in the business, right? And I think that that's part of why they kept us out for so long. You don't just want to be players, you want to own the team. There you go. So it's like, the question is not me because, you know, we're kind of front men, you too. You know, nobody sees the entire operation behind you. We see you, right? But part of being successful is understanding the apparatus, right?

and getting good at that. And we've been in long enough where that's starting to happen. And that's, to me, even more exciting than the mere presence of black artists. How did it feel when you saw the value of your art go up? Like, did it liberate you or did it imprison you? I'm trying to remember that we're here because you know I want to ask you the same thing. I won't do that. You can. This is how we talk. So there was a time when you were probably paid $20 for getting on stage. You're being very generous. LAUGHTER

Bro, I literally come across emails sometimes where I was begging people to buy my work. Like, hello, Trevor. Hope all is well with comedy in your world. I saw your special. It was great. Listen, hey, man, I got these new works. I was doing that, like begging people to buy the work.

That was so long for me that I don't believe the $3 million number. Wow. Right? I know it's made up. That's not to say that there's no value connected to it. No, I know what you mean. Do you know what I mean? No, I'm with you completely. Someone asked me this one day, and they were like, can you think of an analogy for it? And this is how I thought of it. In life, when you are creating, forget art, just creating. Right.

I think there are two ways you can achieve success. Okay. I think of society as being people on a train. I like this. Yeah. The train is constantly moving. Yeah. The train is constantly moving. That's society. Yep. And as somebody who's creating, you're trying to get the people in the train to look at the thing you're doing

and take it. - Right. - And then you are now in commerce with them in some way. - Right. - They're accepting of you, they remunerate you, whatever it might be. But the point is you need the people in the train to get there. - Wait, where are you? Are you on the platform? - No, you're just like standing on the side of the tracks. - Are you on the train? You're just standing on the side of the tracks. - You're just like, hey, society never stops moving. - That's right. - Except when it does. There's moments where society just like it slows down and they look out the window. - Right. - And I always go this one of two ways. Either you can run as fast as the train

and try and be next to it so that society looks at you and goes, oh, I see you and I'm with it. Or you can stay exactly where you are. Right. And wait. And just hope that the train will stop one day where you happen to be. Right. And so when I think of it, let's, we can take it to anything.

There's a time in history when Ferrari is struggling to sell his cars. Yeah, totally. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Now people are like, what are you talking about? You go into the watch world. There's a time when Patek Philippe is begging people. Right. Begging people. Right, right, right. To buy their watches. Totally, yes. Going around to little jewelry stores in New York. Now, good luck getting one. That's right. I think that applies to everything in every way. Yes, absolutely.

And that's why I often say to people, I'm allergic to the advice that most successful people give because most successful people

will give advice that implies that they're responsible for their success. There you go. You know what I mean? So they will say, let me tell you what you got to do. You got to believe in yourself. You got to work hard. You see the other person? You got to work harder than them. And you got to put your effort in and you believe. And if you believe, anything is possible. Welcome to America. But anything that they leave out is failure. If anything is possible, then failure is possible. That's right. And I feel like not enough of them say

Dude, it's real. Be involved in computers around the dot-com boom. Yes. Luck. There are companies that blew up in that period, sold, and then within a few years were worth zero, literally zero. Right. Yahoo bought companies and sold companies. Yahoo itself got sold and bought. That's right. All these stories. No one would say that of the business world. They wouldn't say the business world is fake. No, they can't. You get what I'm saying? They're invested in a big con. They would never say the business world is fake. No, no, no. They can't say that.

They can't. But they know when you go behind the scenes at all these big finance, inside they'll tell you.

It's a fiction, man. We need everybody to believe the same thing at the same time. Right? It's a house of cards. Yes. Intersubjective realities, I believe it's called. Oh, this is good. I like that. I've never heard that term. I love it. I learned it from Yuval Noah Harari, who we had on the podcast. I love that. We talked to him. And in his book, Nexus, he's talking about how humans have connected all of these ideas and how we've made societies out of agreed fictions in many ways. That's what it is. Yeah. He goes-

Gravity is objective, right? Right, right, right. Whether you believe in it or not, it doesn't matter. Right, it happens. The US dollar... Yes, fiction. ...is a fiction that is real because we agree upon it. That's the only reason why. Yeah. So now you've just explained contemporary art. You've just explained it. Well, you've explained the market. It's a fiction that we all agree will legitimize. Yeah. Now, I say to artists all the time, realize what's happening when you're able to sell your art because...

People can give you compliments and not give you money. Right? I can like you. I can think you're great. But if I don't buy a ticket to your show, that's just a different level of investment. Yeah, I'm with you. And so I used to hear years ago, my dad would tell me, son, a professional is somebody who gets paid to do what they do. Right? You get paid. For artists...

You can be a professional and have no money coming in for a long time. In fact, it could all come after you die. Oh, easily. It could come. I mean, hopefully less so these days, but it's true. So the money cannot validate the art because of what you just said, because value is all over the place. The value is shifting. Sometimes they can miss it. All those Black artists for 150 years that were overlooked weren't making better or worse art anymore.

The country discounted them. It's the train. It's the train. So the train wasn't stopping there. The train wasn't stopping there. So for me and for other artists, you have to at once know that the art is authentic and true and real because it's what...

you have transferred into that material. In my case, I make objects. But that transfer has nothing to do with anything but me and that material at four o'clock in the morning. It's a spiritual experience. When I'm done with it and it enters the public realm for critique, for connoisseurship, for commerce, that's a different thing.

Those two things are related and separate. And that firewall, at least in the mind of the artist, has to remain intact. I actually like this for all artists, to be honest. Right. It really applies to all of us. Yeah, it doesn't matter if you're in fashion, if you are in music, if you are in physical... What do you call art in your... Because art covers everything, but then

It's true. Art is fine. This is cool. Yeah, contemporary art, obviously. Contemporary art? Yes. Okay. But in all of these spheres, I think it's the same thing. It is the same thing. It's true. I mean, what you said about the art world that people tend to pay attention to are the big numbers. Right. How much the paintings sell for. But people don't talk about your salary, like you. Yeah. You want people to talk about what you're interested in. And the conversation is, ironically, that's where value is, though. Yeah.

Yeah, I think the difference is for us, though, and I've always wondered how you feel about this as an artist. The difference is I have a million relationships of one. You have one relationship of a million. Oh, this is good. Slow down.

So you have a million relationships. I have a million relationships of one. Meaning one person. So there is no one audience member who is making me or breaking me. Right. And I appreciate them almost all equally because it's like, no. That's why you could. You're coming in with your $20 and you're coming in with your 300 Rand and you're coming in with your $30.

25 or 40 pounds, and you're coming in with your, everyone's coming in with their whatever amount, and this is like a collective, but all of you have come in with a little, and then we're making the show. But I have a million ones, and that's the relationship I have. But you have one relationship with a million. Do you get what I'm saying? I 100% agree. The art world, in many ways, is not democratic.

Because what you're explaining is democratic. Yes, it is. That's one woman, one dollar. One vote. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. One ticket, one vote. And this is also why you could be a superstar and why so many people know your name. Because you play to the widest possible demographic on some level. Yeah, no, you're right. Okay. For us, we're known in very small rooms. Yes. With very few people.

With lots and lots of money. Yeah, the most powerful people. I'd love to know from your perspective as an artist, why do you think art is so essential? Well, I truly believe that art is in our original coding because you'd be hard-pressed to find any society anywhere in the world through any period of time that did not create something outside of themselves. Like cave drawings?

I don't go to caves, but let's go to South America. Let's go to the rainforest. Let's go to the way they twisted leaves together to make beautiful, thatcheted homes. It's really impossible to find humans where they're not creating anything.

And I've thought a lot about this, about why people care. One of the things I used to love to do in New York City, and this is even before I was begging people to buy the paintings. You're just kind of in a room and you're making things and you're just fucking suffering. Maybe somebody bought a painting. I would take the painting to them uncovered so I could ride on the train with my art just to see whether anybody cared. Oh.

Oh, I like this. And you'd be surprised how many people of different kinds would say, you did that? And I say, yeah. That's good, man.

All types of people. And I used to love the way... This is a... I feel like you invented the first, like, people's gallery. They should do that. Someone should do that. Dude, I love that. There's a woman named Sandra Bloodworth who just retired from the MTA in New York City. Her job for over 30 years was to pick artists for the subway to do public works. And she...

And New York City probably has one of the best public works program in all of the country. I did not know that. Yes. And so it's not always original work. I have my work at the 145th Street.

two or three line. And it's all my work. The ideas are in there. And I love it. What kind of work? You know, it's like I designed... Like murals? Yeah, murals. On the tiles and everything? Yeah, in the tiles. If I had my art at a station, I would feel personally connected to the station. Oh, I love it. Yeah, but I would like go and want to like keep the station clean and I want to fight people. Let me tell you what. Before you get to the point where you're, you know, looking at museums as a possibility...

you have the public. I took the train every day. So to have my work in a train station in New York City was like,

What? I'd be fighting. Dude, so it's great because- Let someone try to take a shit at that station. Yeah. That's what you think. You don't even understand the fight that we're going to have. That's my art station? Yo, D, you don't even understand. But what I say is, it is the Derek Forger Underground Museum of the People. That's the way I refer to it. Okay, okay, I like this. But I was actually, you know, after divorce, which happened years ago, I was like struggling again, living out of my studio, living

sleeping on an air mattress. Like it was just tough times. And it was a block away from where they called me to put my work at the station years later. And I just thought, this is not coincidence. That was my station during some of the darkest months of my life. And that's where my work is. So I think that, look, I think it's spiritual to answer your question about

I think that there's no people without making something. I think about the blacksmiths, the instrument makers, all the technologies that lived in the people that moved to different parts of the world and how those things then express themselves. Right, right. The banjo, you know, which is a dis…

have a banjo on my last show, but I love the story of the banjo that starts in Africa with a gourd and ends up, you know, as folk music in America. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's actually a comedian who did a lot about that history. Steve Martin...

in his later years, did a lot of research on the banjo. And it starts in Africa. There's no banjo in America without the American slave. That is wild because the banjo seems like the epitome of white America. Exactly. And so, I mean, look, Beyonce is dealing with that too. I think she had the banjo in her work. There's a Black Banjo Project that has been researching this. But you asked about my work and like what stories. I love the opportunity to...

introduce those complexities and to magnify them and to have people make connections to things that they might not have made otherwise. I mean, it's what you do at your work too, right? It's like, how can we think about this separate and apart from the stories we've been told about what they are, right? And art is a space where we can make a new story. I think I only truly, truly, truly understood the value of art

when I went to Ukraine. Tell me about this. I traveled to Ukraine. This was many years ago, obviously before the conflict. I was going to go watch a Champions League final. Yeah. So we go and what I was most taken by

was how devoid of art the place was. Like any Soviet countries, and not all, but there are many parts of what we call former Soviet Union countries where it's devoid of art. Everything has to be functional only for the purpose of the function. It's like East Berlin. It really is. Yeah, it really is. And when I came back from Ukraine, I remember traveling and realizing, oh man, you know, the thing about art that's weird is

It's like you don't play video games, right? No. How do you know that? You're making a presumption. Man, you don't give me video game vibes. Damn, I hate that. Also, if you played video games, you'd never finish your art. That's how I know. That's very true.

Like, I've been to your studio. You are working. I know video game people. Trust me. You're like, that's not what's happening in here. No, no, no. Video games and, like, hours and hours in the studio. Right, right, right. You can't do both. That's fair. That doesn't work. Do you play? I play. I play my whole life. There's something that I learned from video games that, like, applies to art. And it's, like, it's what they call, like, passive buffs. Okay. So there's some things you would apply to a character. Right.

that are obvious and easy to see. - Like what, like a sword? - Yeah, here's a sword. - Right. - The sword is easy to understand. You have the sword. - Right. - But then you'd have like a buff, and a buff would be, you are going to be 20% stronger now, right? - Wow, yeah. - Now you don't necessarily notice the 20% stronger in every single encounter, but it does make the game easier and it makes it different. - Right, right. - And I remember coming back from Ukraine

traveling in back into like the world going oh damn this is what art does art is like a passive buff to society oh i love this yeah it's true you know what i mean it's true you try you stand in a train station you stand in an airport you stand at a bus stop you stand anywhere any liminal space it's there that has no art okay watch how much you don't feel

- Right. - And it's a difficult thing to notice because noticing absence, as you were saying earlier, is extremely difficult. - It is hard. - You know, it's very difficult to go, I'm noticing that nothing is here. - Yes, yes. - Sometimes it's even difficult to notice what is there, but when you look at art, when you're not even like looking at it, right? - Yeah. - It's doing things to you. - Oh, it is. - So it's impossible to walk through the Sistine Chapel

And be unaffected. Yeah, and not have like wonder. It's not possible. You know, it doesn't matter what the painting is. No, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether you know anything about it. Like, I don't even, I don't know anything about art. Yes. But like when I look at a Rembrandt. Yes. And I didn't even know it's a Rembrandt. That's right. I just go like, where's that field? Yes, exactly. What is that place? You take interest, right? And you know who I realize knows this and has not robbed us of it, but they're very slick about it, is the advertising industry. Yes, they do. Yes. Yes.

Because now billboards are art. - Oh, absolutely. - Right? So when you travel somewhere, you see Coca-Cola. - That's right. - You see, you know, like all these- - You see the story, the optics. - Yeah, it's like everything's shining on a billboard. - Oh, absolutely. - Shining on a billboard, shining on a billboard. You're in Times Square. - Yes, yes. - And they know the passive power of it. They know- - Yes.

In that moment, you may not go Coca-Cola. But if they keep, if you keep seeing that red. Somewhere along the line, you're going to be thirsty and you're like, man, I really feel like a Coke. And they go, thank you. We got you. And now I think if Coca-Cola can make you crave a Coke by putting up a billboard, then an artist can make you crave hope by putting up a billboard. Do you know what I'm saying? I like that. Okay, so I'm going to complicate that. I like it.

I think it's a great opportunity to think about the difference between advertising and art. And it's really simple in that advertising, even design, they solve a problem. They answer a question, right? That they've sometimes created. Yeah, they've created the question, but they answer it. That's the goal. Art is interested in the question. Ooh, okay. I like this. So we'll say design...

The goal is to solve a problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Art is to create the question. Huh. Yeah. So I think that that's the difference. And I think that's also why people are sometimes intimidated by it. But it's like listening to you tell jokes. Sometimes there's so many levels in the joke that it can be really funny if you understand all the resonance. That's true, yeah.

But you don't have to get those deeper levels. Yes. It could also just be funny on level one. You taught me that about arts. Really? Yeah. What did I teach you about art, Trevor? Don't say something. Art is the most. This is really sweet. Yo, art is the most intimidating world I've ever come across. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I still. Yeah. Still till this day. I'm not even going to pretend. I just go, that's a nice picture.

That's all it takes though. And you were the first, can I tell you, you were literally the first human being who said to me like, hey brother, you're like, relax. Yeah, it's okay. You don't need to know anything about the medium. Right. You don't need to know anything about the strokes or what it evokes or the symbolism or how it relates to another art. You were just like, do you like it? Yeah. What'd you like? And I'll just be like, I like the picture. You go like, why do you like the picture? I'll be like, I don't know, I like that person's eyes. And you're like, oh, let's talk about the eyes. Yes. You were literally the first person who did that and

It made me more comfortable just liking art because I like what I'm seeing. Well, I mean, look, that's, look, not to be, you know, flattering each other, but that's also what you did with humor. There was a point in life where I thought, oh, I could be a comedian. But I was like, it's not serious enough, though. Like, I wanted people to take me seriously. And I don't know, like, as a kid, I thought, well, as a comic, like, you're kind of a clown, you know? Like, I didn't really, but it's actually like, it has the space for social critique and

for satire. You can get in places that other public figures can't, and you can push that as far as possible. And you're part of some kind of social change. A joke is so trivial on some level. It's not a serious thing. A painting on its own, I mean, it's just an object. It doesn't

have any embedded like powers arguably but then there is a part where that is true though there's something true a joke can be more it can be profound you know an object can stay with you um and i think that's the stuff we traffic in i mean as you were talking about um you know the the kind of magic and art or value you know i think about like laughter you know it's like laughter's democratic

You know, we're coded for laughter. Yeah, we are. It doesn't matter where you are in the world. I think about like Mr. Bean or something like where there's no language, you know, but I think we human beings are encoded to appreciate art.

I think we are, actually. I believe. I mean, my whole existence is predicated on that belief. No, I actually believe we are. We look at it and we feel whether we like it or not. Yes. It's involuntary. Yeah. So I think that, you know, part of what I love about being an artist is the way I can reach people is at a very human level. It's not about class, race, gender.

It's none of those things. In fact, I can be all about my cultural experience and bring people into it that live outside of it. And how marvelous is that? Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now? after this. What are you working on right now? Because you did a show recently. Yes. How long do you take between? How long does it take you? It takes me about a year to put a show together, a little more.

Do you take a break? I don't know you take breaks. I try not to take too many breaks. I mean, this is my own, like, whatever, anxiety. What is that, like poverty trauma? I can't claim that entirely. Because I know a lot of artists are, and I think this extends to many people maybe in today's age, but there's a terror that if I step away from the thing for too long, then to go back to the train analogy, it'll move. I'll miss it. Okay, well, I have to say this about the train analogy, which I loved. When you were talking about that, I was thinking about

like performers that keep trying to stay relevant. Yeah, chase the train. Chase the train. They're chasing the train. It's a fool's errand. It can work. At some point, you're going to fall out. You can't go as fast as a train. Well, here's the thing. You might not fall out, but I think there's a compromise in everything you're doing in life. Right. So keeping up with the train means that in many ways,

The train is dictating what you should create and not the other way around. This is the difference between, let's say, an illustrator and an artist. An illustrator is...

In design, doing the work that they're told to do to tell the story for the deadline. I can take five years on a painting if I want to. I can take 20 years if I want to. I can take one minute if I want to. Because the train and the approval, that's not what I'm working for.

It's something very personal and very internal. And I set the time. In fact, there is no time in my studio. Here's where the magic happens with art. I had a relationship with everything that goes out of my studio. I had an affair with this thing, a love affair, hated it, loved it, brought it back. The whole thing, every time.

the whole thing. There's not one thing that I make that I don't obsess over. Yeah. And so my investment is what makes your investment possible. And I think there's a point in terms of finishing a work where you get a feeling that's just like, I think we've had our time. You know, you can go in the world now. But art really concludes when it enters the public sphere. Like I started, I make it, I have an experience.

When it goes out for me, that's when the cycle's sort of complete. It's like you can write jokes on a pad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Until you say them to the audience. You have to say it. Yeah. And it has to land. But philosophically, where does the joke live? Does it live on the page or does it live in the delivery? It's always been a tough one to answer. But I think the way I see it as I go, for me at least, the joke exists when I've thought of it.

That's when it exists. Oh, this is like a, this is, this is like a very, you know what I mean? Parallel political conversations. Yeah. But that's literally for me. I go, the joke of a joke. Once it, once I go, huh, that's funny. That's already a joke. I'm the audience of one and I've gone, that is funny.

The difficulty and where I think the professionalism comes in is bridging the gap between your brain and mine when we're in a room together. Can I get your synapses to fire in the exact same way that mine did for you to see why this is funny? And that is where I think great comedians show themselves off. They are able to create the same idea of the world that they have in your mind. And that is like, ah, wow.

That's a, that's a, that's, that's mastery. Yeah. But you've just explained what artists do. It's the same thing that this thing is doing something for me at a personal level. And that experience is authentic and satisfying so much so that I'm going to invest all this time and energy. I love that. Okay. Right. But that's a one-on-one experience. Yeah.

And then at some point, it has to live in the public space. And when I told you... Yeah, but those are so much harder, though, because you put it out and it's done. If I put it out and it doesn't go well, I'm like, all right, let me take it back in the studio and change a few things. You put the painting on the wall and someone goes, boo! It's done. Well, what's beautiful about us is we don't hear the boos. Museums are quite quiet. Yeah.

We're like shush, everyone, quiet. Soft boos. Do not boo the artists. Okay. So the conversation is a little more internal. Yeah, but I think I would be more terrified by that. How do you know that somebody likes what you're making? Yeah, I'd be terrified to stand on stage in Turkey with 20,000 people. Yeah, but how do you know that the people don't like, you know? They keep calling you back for the Grammys. We had to cancel the Turkey show. The fifth call, I'd be terrified. We had to cancel the Turkey show. Did you cancel it? Yeah, we had to. I saw that. There was a whole... You're right. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to bring that up. No, no, I mean, I'm just not like... What happened?

This happens sometimes. We had to cancel shows in Hong Kong in and around the protests, you remember? Yeah, that's true. Yes, I do. We had to cancel shows. Yeah, we canceled shows too. Yeah, we had to cancel shows in India when there were the farmers protesting. And then we had to cancel in Turkey now. Dude, but let me ask you this. How do you know what's funny in other places? I don't. That's what I love. But why would you get on stage if you don't know that? No, but you see, what I love is finding the thing. So, funny is universal.

Okay. This is the first and foremost. In theory, yes. No, no. We can fight about it all day. Funny is universal. And what I mean by that is everyone in the world experiences funny. Yes. Rats laugh. Did you know this? I did not know that. And I would have had to come here to find that out. Yeah. So rats laugh and rats smile. What does it sound like? I don't know. Okay. That's what I'll find out after this. I've just read the papers on it, right? A rat laugh. Okay. So rats laugh. Okay. Okay.

We don't know why they're laughing. - I don't, I don't. - Right. - For sure. - But they're laughing. Humans find something funny everywhere in the world. What I love is trying to figure out where their funny is and how my funny can intertwine with it. So I used to, and I still do in some ways, I used to envy American comedians because American comedians could go anywhere in the world and tell a joke the way they told it in America.

Because people know American culture. Because the world knows America. Right. So they would go like, hey, man, so, oh, man, so I voted for George Bush, and whoa, let me tell you something. And the audience isn't like, George Bush, who is this George Bush? That's right. What are you talking about? That's right. No. That's right. The audience is like, keep going. Tell the joke. Right. You know? Yeah. But if...

As a South African comedian, I would travel somewhere else in the world and then I'd be like, oh man, oh, let me tell you, Julius Malema. Half the people are like, what did you just say? Yeah, we don't know. Who is that? What is that? So while it was a curse in some ways, it was a blessing in many other ways because it meant when I traveled-

I would have to spend more time trying to understand what's funny there. Right. What are they thinking? How do you do that? Why are they thinking that? How does their language match up with what funny is or isn't? Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, but what do you do? You absorb the culture? I try my best, yeah. Do you just hang around for a while? Yeah, yeah. Just listen and look at what people are laughing at? Yeah, like my least favorite experience doing comedy is traveling to a place and leaving it immediately. I hate

that i don't want to fly in fly out yeah you like to be it takes more of my life but i like to go there eat what the people eat yes see what the people see yes and by the way have it as my experience so that by the time i get on stage whether it's in amsterdam yeah or whether it's in cairo or whether it's in wherever i just want to go on and be like man this is how i feel about these alleyways right

And the magic happens when they go, oh, my God, you felt that? Like we feel that too. You felt that? Right. And it becomes a magical experience because they go, we even forgot that we feel that. Right. You know? Right. And I remember I really never appreciated it until it was two people who helped me, Kevin Hart and Dave Chappelle. Right.

Kevin said to me one day he was classic Kevin Kevin was we were at a tennis match and Kevin was like he's like man Trevor let me tell you let me tell you something man let me tell you something man he says man I'm sick of your bullshit man I'm sick of your bullshit and I was like what do you mean Kev and he's like man he's like every country I go to they go you know who came here Trevor came here and they're like man you were funny they're like oh man but Trevor oh man he told us jokes about us and Kevin's like

Man, this is some bullshit. He lives in America. I live in America. And Kevin was saying, he's like, I hope you appreciate what you have. Don't try and be more this. Don't try and be, you know what I mean? Right, right. And Dave said the same thing to me as well. We did a comedy festival that Dave was headlining. And then I was in the run-up days to Dave's show. Yeah. And I think it was like maybe the first comedy festival in the UAE. And we both performed our shows. And I mean, Dave Chappelle is a master of the craft. Yeah, you know? Yeah.

And like afterwards, we're hanging out. And Dave says to me, he goes, he goes, man, he says, I'm funny. Don't get me wrong. He says, but tonight I watched you become Dubai's favorite comedian. He said, you weren't. He said, I was Dave Chappelle. That's big. But you were their comedian. Right. As if you're from here.

And I think that's what I, I don't think it's partially where I'm from as a person, my life growing up, all that, my, you know, everything. Yeah. I've always loved this. I feel like there's something special about,

When you can find a way to use your culinary skills to cook somebody's food for them. That's right. Oh, that's a great analogy. You know? I used to not understand how serious you were about that. You used to say that. After you finished The Daily Show and you were like, I just love to travel and I love to – I was like, oh, he likes to go – like who loves to tour? But you don't just tour. You're like learning. Yeah, I don't – You're like learning the culture and trying to like understand and apply –

I'll tell you why. I think, you know, not to make it too existential, but I think it's particularly now because it's in short supply.

One of my favorite things I get from traveling the world and meeting people and doing what they're doing is it reminds me there's no one way to be right. There you go. You know what I'm saying? Yes. So there is no one way for a joke to be funny. Yes. There is no one way for a food to be delicious. Yes. You know, early on, just here with the crew, we were talking about like fermented shark meat in Iceland. Yes. And if you're not...

able to handle you like this is trash this is disgusting right yeah but they're like no it's not love it yeah and somewhere else people love caviar in another part of the world people like what is this yeah so i think that reminds me in everything politics in the way i relate with other human beings the way you raise a child yeah the way you make the world i go oh don't think that is there is the way yeah and you know how you know there's not the way all those cultures and people exist

Look, they're doing fine. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So if there was one way for the world to be, every other culture would be dead. It's so true. But I find...

a lot of the time bigger nations and bigger cultures will assume so they'll like the British land in Africa and they go these savages they don't know how to do anything but you found them here doing it that's right if you didn't find them I would agree with you but because you found them it means they do know how to do something same thing when like the Spanish get to South America and Central America they're like oh these people don't know and it's like no no no they do know because they're here

You know, as a kid, my mother would sometimes close the door and be like, I'm eating my food. And when she says my food, she means she's eating Ghanaian food. She eats with her hands. And she would say, I mean, we all eat with our hands. We eat foo-foo and otherwise. And she would say, these people won't understand that why I eat with my hands. They think I need a fork. And for her, she understood the fork as a colonial object. Oh.

Oh, damn. That was unnecessary. I mean, it is unnecessary. It's unnecessary. It's completely unnecessary. And she would say, food actually tastes better. I mean, your hands are tactile. You're experiencing the texture of the food and you're ingesting the food. Did she know that based on research? Because that is true. She lived it. I mean, she lived it. I mean, she grew up. I'm saying she was just saying this intuitively. Well, she said we've eaten our food for a thousand. She was doing that magic mom thing. Yes, exactly. She was doing that magic mom thing. You have one of these. I mean, they do that. She's saying. They'll say something that like...

a university release in a paper. Oh, totally. Researchers have found eating food with your hands increases that, and your mom is like, you know. She's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is exactly right. But, you know, to go back to what you were saying about the cultures, man, you remind me of going to, a few years ago, I went to, actually, Israel. And from there, I went to South Africa. And I remember going to Hector Peterson Square. I mean, the story of,

them teaching Afrikaans. And after that, I went to Australia. And when I came off the plane, they apprehended me for a while. And here I am thinking like, oh, I'm taking a break. I've worked hard enough. Let me treat myself. And here this Australian guy is asking me what I'm going to be doing. How long am I here? And then I'm starting to imagine myself as like some...

do I have a dubious motive for being like the questioning went on so long. I'm like, bro, this has been 20 minutes. Like I'm 24 hours away from home. And so that trip showed me, and it was actually a relief that injustices against mankind are as old as mankind itself. It blew my mind.

some kind of way to realize that, oh no, this is like... This is it. This is the human experience. Right. Also, it's tough to be black everywhere on some level. It's troubled. Traveling taught me that making art about my lived experience can be resonant because everyone has some version of what those challenges are. When you think about the universality of a laugh,

or a painting from any far off part of the world. I want to see it. I want to experience it. I can engage it. I can look at paintings that were made a thousand years ago and have an experience. I don't know that humor works that way. It doesn't always age well. Like, is there a timeless joke? I think so. Really? Yeah. That's still funny? Yeah, yeah, completely. Like a hundred years later? I think so. Oh, this is... Yeah, I think so. I think some jokes...

exist in the human experience, and so they will always be funny. That's true. I'm sure there's a joke that Ali Wong has told about having a child that can live forever. For as long as women will have a child, I think that joke will be funny. There are some jokes, though, that are about a thing that may be as short-lived as the thing is. Because the thing is gone. But there are some jokes that I do think...

They will just travel. As long as the people understand the context, that joke will continuously be. I mean, as Africans, we know this, right? Proverbs. Yes. Like they still tickle people. They've been around. Just saw Denzel Washington and Jake Gyllenhaal performing Shakespeare. Yeah. Word for word. And people laughed, you know, so things can be timeless. Art certainly is, but humor can be. Yeah. Yeah.

- And it also just depends. I think of it like fashion as well. It might just come around. It might come in waves. It might go in waves. A simple example is look at content that goes viral in the world at different times. There are TV shows that were hot in America

And then 20 years later, become hot somewhere else. Really hot. But Americans are like, oh, we don't think that's funny anymore. It's true. But that place is like, we love it. We love it. We love it. The way you said the black man cannot come inside. What a great joke. You know, I saw recently these Africans that play, is it Kenyans or they play country music? Have you seen this? No. But they love it. They have these parties and there's like all these Africans wearing like top to bottom like...

Cowboy gear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's a marriage of the cultures. I love this stuff. When culture can... Oh, no, that's my favorite thing. This is what we live for, right? I mean, I think as artists, I mean, that's what we really are trying to mine is like the human experience. I mean, and it could get dark because you got to go inside. When I first started painting, I would make paintings and people would say, and I would have like, you know, an athletic guy, a bright patterned background, and people would say, Kehinde Wiley.

And I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no. But I couldn't – he had already occupied that space. Oh, damn. Okay. And so I was like, optically, the things I'm putting together are adding up to what I don't want. And so the only way forward for me was to get into, okay, well, what's the feeling of

about this image that and it's like oh vulnerability is what i'm interested in because when i experience yeah when i experience racism stealing it down to the core feeling as opposed to the what it looks like yeah yeah right and i'm not saying that's what he's no no but i'm just saying like that was for me my salvation is to get inside the experience and because everyone knows what it feels like to be vulnerable yeah everyone doesn't know what it feels like to live in my body

And so, to me, I don't know, in my practice, I try to do that inside-outside thing as much as possible. I think you succeed. Well, thank you. And even if people don't feel it. Right. The pictures are pretty, man. Hey, man, that's an insult in my world. No, man, the pictures are pretty. The pictures are pretty. The pictures are pretty, and I think we should allow people to accept that. Like, you know why? I'll tell you why. Because...

Whether it's the Mona Lisa, whether it's David and God or whatever it is, the pictures are pretty.

I know people will like fight about it or whatever. But ultimately, it's true. Yo, the pictures are pretty. They're beautiful. They're beautiful. We traffic in beauty. They come with a story and they come with meaning and there might be layers and then like an art historian will tell you why it's significant that that road leads nowhere. It's true. Or why those hills make that... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But...

We should never forget. It's true. That it does look pretty. I say that. You have beautiful art. Thank you. That also comes with a lot of meaning, but I'm just saying. Now you're throwing that in for me. No, I'm not. I'm just saying as somebody who doesn't always understand meanings of, I don't, I'm not learned enough. Yeah.

I just look at it and go like, damn, that's dope. And I think you shouldn't take that for granted. It's nice to have something where someone just goes like, damn, that's dope. No, I do. I mean, I'm joking. It's absolutely true. I mean, beauty is definitely a strategy for me. Because back to your analogy about the train, we're trying to get your attention.

I operate in the glance economy. Yes. Right? You don't need to stand in front of a painting for an hour to have an experience. In fact... Yo, let me tell you something. One of the biggest reasons I don't like going to museums and art galleries... Why?

especially if someone from a museum or art gallery knows I'm there. Yeah, because they come talk to you. Because they'll come take me on tours and stuff. Yeah, they should do that with you. And then what happens is, I don't know how long I need to stand in front of an art piece to make it seem like I fully appreciated it.

Do you know how much pressure they, so I'll stand there and then someone will come stand next to me and they'll go stunning, isn't it? And I go, oh yeah, gorgeous, gorgeous. And then they stand and I stand and then I go, if I walk away now, it looks like I'm not engaged. And then I'll like zoom, I'll like come forward and I'll be like, wow, fascinating. Oh man. Dude, this is a lot of performance. Wow.

It's too much stress. All right, here's what I'm going to do. That's why I like looking at art with you because I can literally just say to you straight up. I can go, I like those pants. That's right. It's true. And I think it's important to be able to do that. Okay, that's very important. And I'm going to absolve you of that pressure. You may never do that again. You may also say, I don't get it. I'm not into it. That's a good thing too. That's a reaction. And in art, that's totally possible. There's some art that just bothers me.

But it bothers me. Okay. And that's a good thing. So I think the complication with the word pretty is that it flattens for me. Beauty is to be more expansive than pretty. Oh, I'll take – Right? So pretty is just purely aesthetics. It's just pretty. But beauty is – Whereas you could be beautiful inside and out.

Well, I think a lot of your paintings are beautiful on the outside. If people don't know what's on the inside, that's what I'm saying. I'll take that. No, but I'm serious, man. Like, for real. I think, yeah, man, what I've always loved about your work is I cannot separate your work from you, which in my world is a compliment. Yes, that's a high compliment. I love that. I worked hard to get there. Yeah, man, because I don't just enjoy the stories you tell. I enjoy them immensely, but I enjoy...

how you tell you in the art. Do you know what I mean? Yes. I love that people get to know a little bit of you, people, and you get to tell people a little bit of us. Yes. You know, I love that like Africans have stories in your art. Of course. I love that black people have stories in your art. I love that there are some people in America and around the world who

have only had a black person in their house yes in your art yes they've never had a physical black person but there are black people on their walls and and you know what their kids grow up looking at those black faces and i mean this like in a real way we have this conversation and i'm really appreciative of that where i just go like damn you did that well but it's true like think about that and so i've been asked also well

How do you feel about that if they're those people that don't have direct engagement with black people in their lives but want to acquire images of black people? And I say there's something beautiful that you find about the experience. And as long as I put enough truth in the work where the work is not merely to perform aesthetically, they're part of the conversation.

And I think it's a good thing. Art is, amen. Let me tell you something. The first artist who painted white Jesus. Yes. Changed the world. Immensely. Changed the world. Changed our world. Certainly changed the continent drastically. Think about it. Right. Think about it. Think about history as we know it. Okay, but. Would it be the same if that painter kept Jesus as dark skinned as Jesus was? Just think about that for a moment. No, it wouldn't. Right? No, it wouldn't. Because it would be a whole lot harder for people to travel to other places.

and do the things that they do to those people when those people look like Jesus now. Do you get what I'm saying? So that's why I'm saying like arts. That's a big thing. Yeah, arts is like a big one. But I'll also say to complicate that, there are pictures of black Jesus that have been created long, long, long time ago. That's that market conversation about that one guy that painted long hair Arkansas Jesus. Like why that became as popular is because of a machine. It's not because of the painting.

So when we go to, say, Ethiopia and we see Orthodox Christ, he looks very different than Arkansas Christ that we know in America or the Western Jesus. But that one didn't travel because it didn't function as propaganda. So I don't want to say that that artist made this move. The machine moved that artist's work, right? Yeah.

So that's why that firewall is so important. Before we wrap this up, I just realized there's something I've never asked you and I've always wanted to. I always remember this when we're not together. This is going to be good. Have you ever heard the conspiracy theory that the CIA invented American contemporary art or abstract art or forgive me if I'm using the wrong term. No, no, no. Have you heard the conspiracy theory? I don't know it well. I've heard some things about them being involved in using it with, yeah. So apparently it's just because when you said machine. Yes. Post-World War II.

The world is now forming itself. It's becoming this new space. And America is now a superpower. Okay. In a way that it wasn't before World War II, right? So America was big, but it wasn't like the power of the world, right? Early 40s. Now America has the atom bomb. The world is looking at America different. America's this thing.

And America, this is all the story, by the way. America realizes that while it is seen as the military powerhouse of the world, it is not considered the cultural powerhouse of the world. So America starts going, okay, we got to get culture out there. And it's doing it in multiple ways. Music and film is burgeoning at that time and it's growing. But the upper-minded echelons say, yes, but America will never have arts.

- Right. - Artists of Europe. - Yes, it is. - Of the sophisticated. - All the art of America for a period of less. - And America is a young baby. - Yes, yes, yes. - And the story goes that the CIA is then tasked

with creating an art market. And so they start telling people, just make shit and we'll buy it. And they go in, they buy it, they inflate the price, they get galleries buying it, they get a market going, it becomes this whole big thing. The story becomes the art, the art's blowing, it's burgeoning as well. And then the thing is created. Have you heard anything about this? I tell you why I think that's complete BS. Yes.

It's a great fun chat. It's a fantastic story. I like it. I mean, for a dinner party, it's wonderful. I'd stand around and listen to it. Remember what we said before about the belief that human beings are encoded to create. Yeah. So creating art at all levels and all ways has been ubiquitous with human beings.

The art market really didn't get created until the 70s. And there was a guy named Skull who owned taxi cabs. He was a wealthy guy who decided to go to Sotheby's, which at the time was only really selling...

and cars and other things. So he had bought art from all these artists in New York, probably many from Leo Castelli, and he decided, I'm just going to resell this stuff. And he did it

at these high prices and Robert Rauschenberg was there at the sale and like shoved them and like they had this match and there's a photograph of the moment when Rauschenberg and so Rauschenberg says hey man you bought that for me from this and like you took advantage of me and Skull says I did you a favor

And so inside our world of contemporary art, that's the origins that we know about. That's the moment. Yes, that's the moment when New York City started to become the center of the art world. So that's, I mean, in terms of art market. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's a bit more plausible than this, because America's, I mean, you know, the government is not, I mean, they don't even support artists well in this country at all.

So that just gives them too much credit. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I want to believe that so much. Like, if you told me that happened in Canada, I might believe that more because Canada supports their artists. They understand culture. If you told me this happened in Korea, look at what they're doing with K-pop. The government is like helping underwrite that thing. That's cultural export. But America? Wow, that's a stretch. Yeah.

Great story, though. Oh, man. I like the story. Yeah. As we said in the beginning, doesn't matter whether it's true or not. Doesn't matter. We just need a story. Yeah, man. This is fun, D. Yeah. Thank you very much for coming. Is there any way where people can see your art right now? Yes. Where should they go? Other than which, wait, which station? Let's start with that. Okay. That's the most important. Yes, yes. The Derek Forger Underground Museum of the People is amazing.

at 145th Street on the 2 and or 3 stop. Okay, cool. So that's cool. So that's there. I have a show I'm working on in September in Los Angeles, which is going to be great at David Kordansky Gallery.

thinking only about music. And people can just go to these things, right? They can just come. Please come to the show. Just come. It costs no money. It's wonderful. So I wish more people went to galleries and museums. So I want to encourage people to just go. This show is all about the black voice. And I think this is a time where we need to raise our voices. I think the black voice is...

emblematic of so many things around democracy that are really is really powerful so hopefully get you to LA I'll do yeah I'll pop by I travel man you don't you travel a lot my friend I travel yeah thanks for having me Trevor Derek Forgeal thank you alright

What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now? What Now?