Neuro-Spicy: Discussing ADHD with Dr. Kristin Carothers [VIDEO]
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But this is my ADHD as well. When I'm in a dirty car, like a car that has everything in it, all I can see and hear is the trash moving while you're driving. So I don't know if you've ever taken the time to do it. Don't because it'll throw you. Like, depending on what type of car you have, while you're driving around...

The sand is jumping in the mat. You literally see it bouncing. And then you see on the dashboard, it's like a little colony of dirt that's celebrating at every stoplight. It doesn't bother me. And then there's a plastic cup that rattles at every turn and every stop. I'm like, how are you living like this? How are you living like this? I have an extra pair of socks in the door. Oh, no. And a knife just in case somebody tries to run up on me. Oh.

I have, like, one of those things that you can crack the window. Like, all in this pocket. And then in the middle pocket, I have lotion and contact lens solution and an inhaler and, like, a badge. And then you open this drawer, there might be, like, a greeting card just in case I'm going to a birthday party. And I see it. My makeup, like, if I don't get a chance to put on makeup in the morning. Yeah, there's foundation on my steering wheel. I shouldn't be proud to say that, but it's just, like... It's a car. Like, it's, like, it's just...

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Find out in the new season of Godfather of Harlem. New episodes streaming Sundays on MGM+. Well, Dr. Corrales, thank you for joining us on the podcast. Thank you.

You're a clinical psychologist. Yes. Just to set the scene for the conversation I wanted to have today, help me break down what you do and how it applies to ADHD. Okay. I'm a clinical psychologist. And when you work with children and adolescents, one of the predominant disorders or mental health presentations you're going to work with is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Yeah. And so for me, I diagnose ADHD.

ADHD in its three forms. I provide intervention and I do consultation or coaching of parents when it comes to kids. Now, my practice has taken a bit of a turn and I work a lot with adults who have just learned they had ADHD or they have it. And I'm teaching them how to manage like parenting and having a relationship and having a career while you're trying to

also live a life with ADHD. Does everyone have ADHD? We all have characteristics, but that does not mean we meet

Clinical criteria for the diagnosis. But we meet TikTok criteria. We definitely meet TikTok criteria. I mean, we all meet TikTok criteria. Everybody. Everyone has ADHD. Yes. Explain the difference because some people actually dismiss the validity of ADHD as a diagnosis. They're like, well, everyone has it. And then some people inflate it the other way and they go like, oh, I definitely have it. And I'll say, no, you're just disorganized. So first of all, what is it that you have? Because there are three different forms. Okay. So there's hyperactive impulsive presuppositions.

Wait, hyperactive impulsive? And what does that look like? That looks like you are always on the go, energizer bunny. You keep going and going and going. You talk nonstop. You're doing 15 different projects. You are moving from one topic to the next. You're running when you should be walking. If you're a little kid, you're climbing when it's dangerous to climb. You're just acting before you think. Can this be presented like so I know...

With some people, it's like the persistent tapping. Is that the hyperactive? Okay, so that hyperactivity. Like their knee will be constantly moving or they can't sit still in a chair for a while. So people can be anxious and do that. People can do that to self-soothe. There can be lots of different functions of certain behaviors. So that's another thing. The tapping doesn't mean you have ADHD, but what you will find is that people with ADHD tend to be a little bit louder. They tend to move their bodies more. They tend to have difficulty being aware of like,

Their bodies and that their bodies are moving. And that sometimes it's restless energy. But you can also see that for people who have like anxiety. Then you have the inattentive presentation, which is like space cadets. You are forgetting things. You're losing things. You're drifting off into space. You're supposed to be focused on one task. And before you know it, like a bunny runs across your path and you're on to the bunny. Yeah, but I mean, everyone should look at the bunny. Look at the bunny.

I always worry about people who don't look at the bunny. If you're living your life and a bunny runs across your park and you don't look at the bunny, who are you? Who are you? What life are you living? I don't know, but it's not a good one. And so you got hyperactive impulsive type. You got inattentive presentation. And then the third is the combination.

Of all three. Oh, the big boss. The big boss, which is where in some settings you're hyperactive, impulsive. In those same settings, you might be inattentive. And this is when you see people really start to struggle. And you have to have disruption in social and occupational functioning. What that means is this has to be negatively impacting your relationships or

Or it has to be causing trouble on your job occupationally, right? If you're a kid, you don't have a job, you have school. So what you see is difficulty like getting through a test or forgetting to turn the homework in even though you did the homework. Or losing the worksheets. With my kids that I work with, I'll have them bring the book bag in and it looks like a war zone inside of the book bag. Right.

But for adults, and I'll talk about myself, the house is organized, but if you open a drawer or you open the closet, it looks like... It's chaos. Chaos. That's...

So I was diagnosed with ADHD. I don't know when this was. Maybe it was definitely during the pandemic-ish time. Congratulations. Welcome. But what happened is one of my best friends, he was going through the most, is the best way to put it.

He thought he had depression and then he thought he had something else and then someone said he was bipolar. He went through this whole journey and then came out on the other side of it, almost completely different person. And then he told me, he said, hey man, I was diagnosed with ADHD and this is what it means. And I was like, okay. I mean, I took it seriously, but also we're friends, so I didn't take it seriously.

And then he said, this changed my life. And I felt so emotional. And the world has never looked like, and I feel like I've wasted so many chances in life now. And I was like, damn, this is getting deep. Yo, you just forget things. Calm down. Calm down. And he said, no, now I take medication. And then he explained some of the symptoms to me. Okay. And I was like, huh, that sounds like me. But we're so different personality wise that I could not believe that we had the same thing.

because in my head, he was describing a personality. And it's not a personality disorder. They're personality disorders, mood disorders, disorders of regulation. They are not the same thing. And I also kind of want to move away from the term disorder. Yeah. Right? Your brain is wired to function differently in different settings. In some settings, the way that your brain functions is optimal.

In other settings, it's suboptimal. And so rather than saying like, oh, we're disordered because we can't focus. Well, when it comes time to solve a problem and we're down to the wire, we don't have a lot of time. Your brain is willing to think creatively to problem solve. Yeah.

But it can be depressing for you if you're in a setting where everybody seems to be able to go with the flow and go with the grain. And you're like, I am dying. I am miserable going along with this. This is driving me crazy. And nobody gets why you're so bothered. And that's what I find happens when you finally get validated or you get the diagnosis. You know, they're like, OK, I knew I wasn't crazy.

this is actually boring for me. This is not the way my brain is reinforced. This is not what I'm meant to do in life. And the reason I say congratulations to you is because I think once people know what's going on with their brains, then they can like, not just look at it from like a negative point of view, but almost like embrace it. Like, okay, so this explains it. And now that I know this, I've got to figure out how I work. I'm curious because you specialize in children. Mm-hmm.

And the thing about early childhood is that it's very difficult to articulate your own experience and what's going on in your brain. A lot of the things you describe, you're like, oh, that sounds just like a toddler. Or that sounds like a five, six-year-old. So how, for parents with young children that are displaying some of this behavior, how can they know the difference between

before being like, okay, this brain is wired differently and this is just emerging childhood. Okay, so a couple of different places. ADHD used to be diagnosed, you had to have the symptoms before age six. Now we say you have to have them before age 12. Oh, why do they make it later? Because the researchers said

I don't really know. But the researcher said with the new edition of like the manual that we use to diagnose the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders. That's DSM. DSM-5. That it was based on the research that people were presenting with symptoms as late as age 12.

And so they wanted to make sure that they could be, I guess, more inclusive. Okay. So before what was happening is they said, if you don't show it by six, you don't have it. You're good. You're good. But guess what happens at age six? Some kids are just entering formal school. Oh, and now you get exposed. And then you see it. Now you see it. Now you get exposed. But if you don't send your kids to preschool...

And then you wait until they turn six for kindergarten. And then at kindergarten, it's like this kid cannot stay in a seat. This kid is, I've walked into classrooms where I'm coaching and I'm looking for my client and they're under the table. And the teacher's like, okay. That's funny.

Classic. Right. And like, where is this kid? Oh, under the table. OK, time to go with me. Right. Yeah. And so you your original question was, how do parents know if it's like typical behavior or behavior that is different versus a parent? You have to know what your temperament is.

Is there a mismatch between your temperament and your child's temperament? That doesn't necessarily mean that there's a problem with your child. That's number one. I think what you want to look at is how that kid interacts with other kids and what it takes to get that kid through a day. Because typically, if you have a kid who's really hyperactive, it's going to take a ton of energy and organization and routine and planning and accommodating to get this kid through the day.

Whereas you may have other kids where you can say, put your shoes on, come back five minutes later, the shoes are on. With this kid, if you say put your shoes on and you come back, they're going to be off to the next thing. But we want to look at age. They've stolen someone's shoes. They've stolen somebody's shoes. All these things. My record with my mom, the story that she keeps bringing up is one day I came home from school. I had no backpack whatsoever.

And I had no shoes. Come on. And then my mom said to me, and my cousin always tells a story as well, because he says that day I got one of the all time beatings. And he says he remembers like watching me going, but this could have been avoided. He was also a child. He says he watched me and he thought to himself, but he could have avoided this. And what had happened was I came home and apparently my mom was like, where's all your stuff? And I said to her, I said, the bag got heavy. Like,

Put it down. So I put it down. I literally left it on the side of the road. I put it down. To me, logical. And then she said, and what happened to the shoes? And I said, the shoes were new and I didn't want to finish them. So I left them somewhere close to school so that I don't have to wear them out on the way home. Aww.

Because you know like your shoes would get worn out on the sides, right? Like we couldn't afford new shoes the same way other kids could. So I noticed kids always had like a flat heel on their shoe. Look at how observant you are though. Exactly. And then my shoes had the slant that looked terrible. So I was like, okay, if I can preserve my shoes, then I won't get laughed at as much. So I'll leave the shoes near school and then walk home barefooted.

And we went back and everything was where it was, which means my plan worked technically. Technically. Yeah, but she couldn't understand. And my brain, I remember thinking this made sense. To me. To me, it makes complete sense. Yes. Now, I don't have the kids.

but I also have ADHD. So I find myself very comfortable with a child who has ADHD. - I have a question on top of that. So I have a bunch of friends who are now, they were high performing girls in school, super bright, and they're nearly 40 and they're like recently diagnosed and it came up in postpartum. Everything fell apart.

And a lot of things that their therapists and the people they're working with said, we miss it in girls. We miss it in girls. We miss it in girls. I don't want to get into the gender binary and all that stuff. But you know...

The girls I see even in my son's preschool, they behave very differently. Even when they're energetic, they're energetic in a different way. Yes. How do parents of girls who may not have the same presentation make sure that these girls don't go under the radar for a long time and maybe never get diagnosed? What are you seeing in girls as children? So that story that I told you about the kid under the desk was a girl.

And for girls, unless their behaviors are so hyperactive that it is like really problematic, girls tend to fly under the radar. I think because of confirmation bias, we expect that boys are going to be more likely to struggle with attention and focus. Or we'll say like, oh, it's part of being a boy. But then if it goes too far, it's like, okay, well, then we probably need to look at this boy. I think a lot of girls present as inattentive initially and people miss inattention or

Or the girls that get caught are the girls who are super talkative, super busy, super on the go. And so for girls, you could meet those six out of nine criteria for hyperactivity. But if it's not at a level comparatively to like a boy who's hyperactive or another girl who's super hyperactive, you could get missed. It's like based on like our cultural expectations for girls' behavior, for boys' behaviors, which make it tough.

Yeah, but there are girls who are struggling. Absolutely. What would you look for, I guess? I think you would look for how the girl is doing in friendships. In friendships? Are they making friends? Are they sustaining friendships? Whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's break this down. Yes. Why is that one of the signifiers of potentially having ADHD? Yeah.

Because children with ADHD are most likely to struggle in social relationships. They're going to be the last to be picked to be on teams. And we've got research for this. Wow. What happens is they stay little and people developmentally move on. So it's a lot of fun to have a hyperactive friend when you're three or four.

When you're nine, 10, not so much. Okay. If we're three or four and you're breaking the rules and you're running, it's like, ha ha fun. This is so much fun. I'm going to follow you. I'm going to play. But by the time we get to playing like the video games or we get to like, there's a sport and you got to be really agile physically. That's another thing that kind of tends to co-occur for people with ADHD is physically when it comes to sports and activities, they don't necessarily interact.

excel in some of those because coordination. Yeah. Right? So you may be more likely to be clumsy and so you need a lot of input. Yeah. Like if you're playing baseball, you got to stop. You got to watch. That can be really boring for a kid. Soccer, for a kid with ADHD, you out there or you out there. Yeah, there's moments where they're just watching. Nothing's happening. They're picking

the flowers out of the dandelions. A basketball team, we got to get you to be able to look and follow cues. And so your social functioning is major when you have ADHD. And so if you have a girl or a boy and you're worried about them and wondering, look at their social functioning. How are they doing with friends and on sports and activities? Then academically, talk to the teacher about what's happening in the classroom. Um,

Is the kid able to sit in a chair or do they stand the whole day? When you put the kid under timed pressure, do they do poorer or better finishing an assignment? Is this kid likely to stay on task, like to do the assignment until it's done, or do you have to give constant reminders? Think about at home. How long does it take to wake the kid up? How long does it take for the kid to get dressed?

does the kid lose things? Can they follow a routine without a constant reminder? And it takes a lot of like external stuff to be able to get them to that point where they can't. So it's possible, but you're going to have reminders everywhere. So like for me,

Last two days I've been in New York, I've decided not to really set my alarm, which is not a good idea. I like winged it and I made it, but I made it down to the wire. That's another thing. Wait till the last minute. Oh, yeah, that's classic ADHD.

Trevor. That's completely. I can do this in eight minutes. Yeah. Yeah. Time blindness. Time blindness. It's completely time. You know what I'd love to do is break down each part to help us understand the whys behind it. Okay. Because I think a lot of people will, you know, a lot of people will recognize this stuff. They'll go like, oh yeah, that's me. I can't wake up or I'm late or I'm, help us understand the why. So why is it hard to wake up if you have ADHD? You likely don't have great sleep hygiene.

You know you should go to bed at 8 o'clock, but you really want to watch that show. Okay, now let's go down that rabbit hole. Why do you not go to bed then? Because your brain is like, but I could just watch this one episode and it won't be that bad. And then you get hooked on the episode and you're like, but now I want to watch another. Or you're like, I want to read this book and my brain isn't tired yet. So I'm going to read a few chapters of this book. Like I need my brain to be exhausted to fall asleep and stay asleep. Okay.

Okay, but then why is your brain wanting to do another episode? Because your brain is reinforced by dopamine. Okay. What is happening with ADHD is your brain functions differently. Okay. And so the dopamine or the reward centers of the brain need a lot of input for reinforcement. Okay.

Okay, and what's happening with a regular brain? With a regular brain. What I like to call an office brain. An office brain. I don't call it a disorder. I call it a non-office brain. An office brain is like. Tell us what office brain people do. Office brain people are reinforced by being in the office and getting their work done. Okay. When an office brain person wakes up,

Task oriented. They wake up easily because they have to wake up? No, they're probably more organized and have better sleep hygiene. Yeah. They're routine and structured. So they go to bed. They have a routine. Yeah. They sleep while they're in bed. And their brain's giving them dopamine for doing that. Yeah. I don't know that it's giving them dopamine, but their brains and bodies are reinforced by having that eight hours of sleep. They know they need it to function. It really helps them to get through the day. It makes them feel comfortable and secure. And so they prioritize it.

For a person with ADHD, sleep isn't necessarily a priority. Getting stuff done and having fun is a priority. Like doing as much as you can in a day is a priority. Like being able to multitask, even though you might not be good at it. That's the priority. That's what's reinforcing. Like usually I have to get up at 610 to wake my son up. But hey, got somebody waking him up because I'm not there. So you switch your schedule. So I switch my alarm back 30 minutes. And before I left...

Atlanta, one day I decided like, I'll just take him to school. Forget getting on the school bus. Right. That's me deciding I'm not going to engage in routine because I just decided I didn't want to. But I am training my child to respond to an alarm.

And so I was still in the bed and got a knock on my door. And my child is like, it's 630. And I was like, oh, I was going to take you to school today. He's like, I'm dressed. I was like, OK. So, yeah. So. So it sounds like to me you you have ADHD. Absolutely. But I was like, good. Look at me. I'm making excuses. So in school, I don't think my teachers would have complained about me. I just talked.

I just talked and I had to doodle. But did you know when you got into clinical psychology? Did you know by that time or did you know afterwards? I'm black. And when I got into my clinical psychology program, I had never been to therapy.

All of my white colleagues, most of them had been to therapy before. They had seen a psychologist. So I decided to do this sight unseen. I never went to therapy or nobody in my family went to therapy. You just pray. You pray. I mean, that's what we did. And you say, it's nothing wrong with that girl. Ain't nothing wrong with her. We just going to pray. We're going to pray. Like, get out of here. You don't have no problems. We got problems. Like, you know, that's how it goes. So like when I went to grad school,

I used to take copious notes so that I could focus. And then I would doodle. And then in undergrad, I remember getting called out by a professor because they knew I was doodling, which is pretty embarrassing at the collegiate level to get called out for doodling. Like, I'm in college. Like, this is not fifth grade. But I got called out. But I've always just figured out how to make it work. Because that's like, there's like different cultural expectations, right? Yes. And my grades were high. I got everything done.

But I just know that there's a book that talks about ADHD and functioning, and they talk about brain glitches. And one of the glitches is go ahead and forget it. Like, go ahead. You're going to have enough time later. Go ahead and do what you want. You're going to be able to cram that in. Oh, yes. I call that now and not now. Talk about that. What is that? So for an ADHD brain, there are only two modes. There is now and now.

And there is not now. Okay? Okay. So when I meet other people, I'm always really impressed and fascinated by how they are able to see time laid out in a more gradual fashion. So somebody says to me, let's say it's now like 5 p.m. And they go, dinner's at 8. In my head, what I've heard is dinner is not now. Okay. Then at like 6.30, they'll start like dressing.

They'll go, "Alright, I'm gonna go get dressed." And I'll say to my friend, I'll be like, "You're getting dressed? Why?" They go, "So we can go to dinner." Then I go, "Wait, what's the time?" They go, "It's 6:30." And then I'm like, "Ciswe, Ciswe." I have Ciswe on the podcast all the time. He's like the antithesis of ADHD. He is the, like the furthest thing possible. So he'll start getting dressed at like 6:00 PM or 6:30, when dinner's at 8:00. - Yes.

And then I go, but dinner's at eight. He's like, yeah, so I'm going to get dressed now. And I go like, but that's not now. Like dinner's not now. You could do so many other things now. My brain is going, I mean, I could watch a movie. I could watch a few episodes of a TV show. I could read something. This makes no sense. Because how long does dressing take? Dressing takes approximately six minutes. Six minutes to get your whole outfit together. That's what I'm going with. Plus or minus 30.

You know what I mean? It's like six minutes. You put your things on. And then I'm like, and then what? To get out of the door, that doesn't even take time. That's like 70 seconds at best. And then when you're in the car, what does Google say? Oh, 11 minutes. Okay, so it's going to take 11 minutes to get to the place. So if we combine all of this time, 27 minutes is what I need. And this is what my brain says. Sit on the couch, sit on the couch, sit on the couch, sit on the couch, sit on the couch, sit on the couch. Then at some point, I even get anxious or I get...

I get annoyed that the time is not happening. So I'll look down and go, what's the time now? 7.15? Oh, now I have to wait 15 minutes before I can start doing stuff. And I'll sit with that. I'll sit with that and look at it and look at it and look at it. And then finally at 7.30, I'll wait for that three minutes because I know I need 27 minutes. I'll wait for the three minutes. I'll be like, all right, time to go. And then like my phone will ring.

And then that now has thrown off everything. Because someone phoned me for like four minutes. You've just killed my 27-minute plan. And then now I'm not running it. And then you're going to be like... Because it's not now. That's the thing. And I think that's why I say with kids, part of it is because I don't take things that seriously. But when I talk to people's kids who have this...

I articulate it to their parents with them because I go, no, I know you're making it serious. And a lot of parents of ADHD children feel like their kids really undermine them. Yes. That's like the biggest thing. Defiance. It feels like defiance. But it also feels like prank defiance. Because think about it. You send a child into another room. Just think of it from a parent's perspective. Please go into your room. Yes. And put on your jacket and put on your shoes. We're leaving. We're leaving in 10 minutes. The kid goes into the room.

15 minutes later, you're like, where's the kid? You go to the room. They do not have the jacket on. They don't have the shoes on. They have books on the bed that they've opened up. They've started reading something. They've started building Lego. And you're going, what are you doing? And the child looks at you and goes, what? And you're like, your jacket. And they're like, what?

And you're like, what are you, I just need, and I see how many parents, because it feels like you're being undermined. It feels like somebody, please go and grab something for me. They never come back. You know? And so I, like, I love that you're saying that thing of like the brain, the brain glitching. Because I think people take that for granted. And I also understand a lot of people are just like, this is, this is bullshit. Come on. There's no way your brain works like that.

It's absolutely not bullshit. If you've got a kid with ADHD or you have ADHD, you've got to do one thing at a time. You give one command in the room where you want it to occur. You wait for the person to start so then you can reinforce the fact that they're starting. Thank you for listening. Because you're trying to get them to listen to you.

Oh, I love this. Wait, so let's play the scenario out. You want the best result for your kid and from your kid. Yes. Or from your partner who might have ADHD. Okay. We'll get to that actually. We're going to get to that. So we start with the kids. So you're in the room. Yes. Or you want something to happen. You want your kid to make their bed. Absolutely. Okay.

You don't tell them to make their bed from the living room. You're saying you go with them. You're supposed to go with them. And nobody has time for that. That's our issue, right? We don't have time to go. I need you to go to your bedroom and make your bed. Actually, you go to the setting where you want the behavior to occur in order to increase the chances that the behavior will occur. So ABC, antecedent, behavior, consequence. Antecedent, we're going to go to the kids' room. We're going to say, if you're going to give some information, you give it now.

I need you to make your bed. The room's a mess. You don't have to throw in the room's a mess, but I need you to make your bed. I'm going to throw in the room's a mess. The room's a mess. I need you to make your bed. Please make your bed. And you can say please because it models a social skill, being polite when you make a command. And it's not a question. It's not like, are we ready to clean up the room? It's like a question. No, it's a command. So this is not gentle parenting where it's like, oh, I'm being nice to the kid for the sake of being nice. Got it? There's a difference. So please make the bed.

You wait, you say nothing. The kid starts to make the bed. Great job, listener. I'll be back in two minutes. You think you could get this done in two minutes? Like make it a little game. He's like, yeah, I got this in two minutes. You go, I like that. Make it a game. Game-ifying task.

that are non-desirable or non-reinforcing is a big thing for people with ADHD. You set that timer, you see if you can beat it. So back to the kid. We want something done. We have to do the command in a setting where we want it done. If you do it from afar with multiple parts, they're going to lose it. They're just going to lose the task because their brain is not wired to keep up with multiple tasks at a time. Mm-hmm.

I'm really curious because you said, I'm black. Yes, sorry. I'm not sorry I'm black. Your focus is children. Yes. And we know that black children, minority children in this country tend to be really under diagnosed. Yes. And

As a result, they're often expelled. It's like, that's a bad kid. And we know about the school to prison pipeline. And there's something, I can't remember the statistic about how many people in the prison system actually have ADHD. I think it's 60 to 70%. Yeah, it's like a huge, huge swath of like black men in this country who were once black boys with ADHD who were never diagnosed because of, you know, historical and social factors. So you're a bad, you're a bad kid. Systemic racism. Systemic racism. Yeah.

So we're in this kind of very negative loop that becomes multigenerational because I think culturally sometimes we don't have the words. Someone's anxious. They may say my nerves is bad. They're not going to say that, like, I have anxiety. Yeah. So there's no none of the cultural language. So I'm wondering, like, what can we do for those children around us where they actually have internalized the idea that they are bad? The school is saying that they're a bad kid and they're on the expulsion track. How do we get that?

them out of that because it seems that once you're on that track, it's hard to get off. I think the first thing, and this is like what I've learned as a behavioral psychologist is we don't discuss like children's traits, characteristics. We talk about the behavior.

Right. So we're externalizing a behavior from a kid. So it's not that you're bad because you won't sit down and listen. It's because it's hard for you to sit still. You have difficulty sitting still for long periods of time. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. It's just better for you to be able to move around. So getting parents to see behaviors as behaviors and not as children's personality or what they're going to be when they grow up. The other thing that we've got to be really aware of is like, uh,

messages that get passed down through generations and through families that can be really kind of negative and trying to like compare kids to people around them who we think that they're like. And we have all this anxiety and this angst and this worry about whether or not our boys are going to be OK or what the future is going to hold. And so we want them to like conform to all of these like values.

behaviors that are going to ensure that they're successful. And now we're learning that there's no perfect recipe. I mean, look at him. Come on.

There is no recipe for this. But for black people, it's like, well, if there's no recipe, if you can't just be good and go to college and get a good job, what do we do now? And we're learning that that's not necessarily the recipe. You know, but that's the recipe that's kind of been pushed, which is why I think a lot. And if systems around you, I hate to go here, but.

whatever. If systems around you are built so that you don't succeed, then you got to wonder if people are going to be more likely to blow you off and dismiss you for any difference rather than looking at it as like a positive or saying, this is my kid who likes to talk in the classroom. So I'm going to have

him stand up and explain to the class what I just said. Oh, interesting. Interesting. If this is my kid who likes to beat on the table, then I'm going to say, if you all get through this assignment, I'm going to let you come up with a beat on the table and the rest of you all dance. If this is my kid who likes to challenge and question, then let's have a debate about this subject. But you got to care and you got to believe that this type of behavior is functional. Mm hmm.

Right. You've got to believe that there's functionality to being busy. There's functionality to thinking outside of the box. There's functionality to like thinking. And many systems are set up. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. This episode is brought to you by Uber.

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This episode is brought to you by Tools and Weapons, the podcast hosted by Microsoft's Vice Chair and President, Brad Smith.

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For these and more conversations with government, business, and cultural leaders, search Tools and Weapons wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'll often say to my friends, I say it half-joking, but I do believe it. I go, ADHD isn't necessarily a problem. ADHD is just like the enemy of capitalism. I truly believe this. And what I mean by that is, if you think of how ADHD presents...

Most of the things that ADHD presents, they're like sort of bad for a factory worker. Absolutely. I joke and I call people office thinkers, but I know some of my friends love organizing and being quiet and reading and looking at lists and putting numbers together. Good for you. Good for you.

But you have to admit that the world has also been designed that way. Absolutely. Right? So the world is great for people who wake up early. Yes. The world is great for people who wish to sit in a cubicle. But what does the world do for you if you do want to talk or if you do want to run or if you want to jump or if you want to…

Now, luckily, there's some outlets, like, for instance, in the same way that prison athletes over index for ADHD. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. How do they train? No, but that's what reinforces their hyper focus is their sport. So I'm intrinsically internally motivated to do this activity that I love this athletic. And so I can do it for hours. I can train for hours. I'm around my people who also love it. I'm so reinforced by that. I just want to be in this setting.

Interesting. And I can perform and I can excel. It does two things that I've seen firsthand. It's like, number one, it's routine and it's rhythm, right? But it's also not boring routine and rhythm. Yeah, that's true. So it's high intensity. Someone's throwing a ball at your face. This is not like, like if you read a textbook and you miss a line, you're not walking out with a black eye. Do you know what I'm saying? Trevor, normally I agree with you when you say stuff about like,

and office workers about an ADHD brain. I'm with you on that. But I think that ADHD brain can make you a bad partner, like in a relationship. You know what I mean? Like, imagine you didn't even have a job and you have all the money in the world. Oh, that's what I disagree with. Your wife is saying to you, I need you to pick up the dry cleaning. But you know what's interesting about the athletes, you know, before we move on to relationships is...

A lot of athletes don't know that they have ADHD. That's what I've realized as well, because especially in America, like sports started at such a young age. So they just know that they excel. Yeah. Right.

A lot of them don't even realize that it's their ADHD brain that makes them excel. So they're able to think of multiple plays at the same time on the court. They're noticing small... It's a level of genius. It is a level of genius. But they never get diagnosed and they never present it. But maybe in their personal lives. And that's why I mentioned the partner thing.

Tom Brady I'm not saying he has ADHD but like his life kind of fell apart when he retired right and then he has to go back to the thing and then you know yeah no look you never know you never know with anyone but that's what I mean is like because but I think also even in those situations like you listen to some of the top performing athletes

The ones who have, I would say, like the most rigid routines are generally the ones who do the best because even in their personal lives, their meals are at a time with the family. They have this. So the family has to also fit into the schedule because the schedule is so intense. So then that to me goes to the conversation about partners. Right. So the athlete is hyper focused in doing what they have to do to maximize what their bodies can do, maximize their amount of time. But then...

that is one part of your life. Yeah. And you miss out on the other parts of your life that are kind of orbiting around that. That's not your life. It's your livelihood. But for many of them, it's their life. Yeah, it is their life. It's where they've been. Their life has been their life is finally where they feel secure and productive and they may not have. And it is a way out of poverty. It's a way out. It's a way to help family and serve so many functions. But when it comes time to being a partner of a person, um,

you've got to be able to be empathic and to understand what it is you need and what it is your partner needs. And so can you give me an example about what might make it hard to be in partnership with somebody with ADHD? I don't want to look at it strictly through a heterosexual lens, but I think domestic labor is something most couples, wherever you are,

struggle with. Who does the washing up? Who gets the laundry? Who's kicking today? Who's cleaning? The house needs to be in a certain way. And when you have children, that's even compounded, right? For the most part, women take on a lot of domestic labor. We talk about the mental load all the time. It's women doing that. And I speak to a lot of friends whose husbands have ADHD. And they're like, we're really dealing with the gender differences that come up where I'm doing a lot of the domestic labor. Right.

but this man is also forgetful and, but he's not being an asshole. Do you know what I mean? Because sometimes there's this idea that like, you know, the lazy man is like, he's struggling. He, he generally forgot to take out the trash, even though I can smell it. Right. He forgot to take out the trash. He didn't make the bed. He didn't pick up the dry cleaning. I organized the cleaner. You forgot to get the cash to pay the cleaner. Do you know what I mean? And like,

that can cause a lot of tension in relationships. And then you think that that person dislikes you. Because I think when you're in love with somebody, it's like, if you love me, you do this thing for me. But they're incapable of doing it. But love is not transactional. Well, for some people it is.

Okay, so that's one thing. So if love is transactional, then you need to know what the currency is. My currency and your currency is going to be different. Your currency is going to be organization. You are going to be able to make sure the kids have the schedule, make sure that the cleaner is scheduled, make sure that we know what day the trash goes out, we know how much money is in the bank account. The other person's currency may be like

fun stuff and it can be hard when you are the person of the currency of responsibility and the other person seems like to do the gets to do the fun stuff but it's like making sure that you all are having family outings the person who has relationships with everybody in the neighborhood that might be the person who's able to make sure that they check in with the family to make sure that you all are going to have a family vacation so it may seem like one person is like day to day like what's happening right here

on the ground. The other person may be bird's eye view. And I think you've got to know what your strengths and weaknesses are in the couple. Mm-hmm.

So if you are the partner of a person with ADHD and you know that money management is not their thing, then we don't want to put all money responsibilities on them. We want to make sure that they're knowledgeable, but we may say, hey, so we have a system and there's a budget. Your budget is this. We have a credit card that is set to this amount. And once that amount is over, we're done. Right.

there's going to be some tension there, but you're helping that person to structure. But then you're also reinforcing them by saying like, look, since we were able to stay within our budget, we have this much more to take that vacation you wanted. You wanted to plan this great vacation. So this could go either way because there's a lot of wives who have the ADHD and the husband doesn't like it. It can go either way, but I think really you've got to be honest about who you are. You know, this is something that I know, like I've struggled with, you know, after being diagnosed with ADHD, I then went back and I was like, oh, wow.

Half of the issues I had in my relationships were from ADHD. And then 90% of the issues I had with my mom

was just ADHD. Just me realizing, oh, I was never, quote unquote, naughty. My brain was just trying to be stimulated. I wanted to see what would happen if I threw rocks at all the windows at the houses in the neighborhood. And I know now as an adult, now the logic has caught up to it, but I still think it's an exciting endeavor, right? But how do you find the difference between

Being incompatible slash an asshole. And, oh no, this is the person's ADHD. Because I can understand in anyone's defense who's with someone who has ADHD. To your point, they might just be ignoring your requests. And they might not be...

But then there's a person with ADHD who's going like, damn, I really, really, really didn't want to forget that. And I really didn't want to be late for dinner. And I really didn't want to be, you know. Over promising and under delivering, which I think is another ADHD thing that could come up in relationships like that. You know, the biggest thing that helped me genuinely is now, and I give this advice to anyone who has ADHD, is I go start with no. Changed my whole life. Start with no. Yeah.

Let me think about it. Everything people ask you, start with no. And you'll be shocked at how it changes. Because that's what I realized happens to ADHD people. Our brains are moving so quickly. Someone says something. We love being stimulated. And so Christiana goes, hey, can you babysit my kid this week? Yeah, I'd love to. See? I said it immediately. Yes. And then I leave the conversation.

I pull out my phone And I go Oh this weekend I have a Oh I've got a I've got a gig Welcome to my world I've got a gig that I have to do And I forgot about this thing But now And then you send me a text going Thank you so much for agreeing to babysit And I'm like Ah damn What do I do now Ah

You think you're letting everybody down. Yeah. Now I'm like, okay, wait, wait, wait. I think I can do this. So wait, what time is the actual babysitting? Okay, from 4 to 6. My gig is at 6.30. So I couldn't make it. It's a 27-minute drive. I think I can. And now I'm back in that loop. I'm back in the 27 minutes. And then what happens is I disappoint you on the day because I get overwhelmed. Because the day comes, my times aren't lining up. I can't get to you on time anymore.

And then what happens to a lot of people with ADHD I know is there's the shame that comes with it. Yes. Because you were trying to do the thing for everybody. What happens is you fail everybody. Yeah. And because rightfully so on their side, they don't know what you were going through. And so they just go...

Why didn't you just tell me? Then why did you agree to do this? Why are you so flaky? Why do you put so much on your plate? Is this part of why people with ADHD have higher levels of depression and suicide? Let's talk about it. Absolutely. Is it that experience? I think so. Yeah, you internalize it. And I think already the research, we don't technically, I don't think we have a ton of it just yet, but anecdotally,

I believe that many people who struggle with ADHD often have underlying anxiety and depression. For kids, anxiety and depression tend to kind of co-occur. It's hard for us to tease them apart. But what happens a lot of times is kids who, once they're medicated, or once a person is medicated for ADHD with a stimulant medication, which actually slows your brain down, then we start to see all of these anxious thoughts come up.

And it's not that the medication is causing those thoughts. It's that we can hear them now. The person was so busy or so distracted that all we were focused on was their behaviors and we didn't know what was happening in their mind. Damn. So on the partner side, what advice would you give someone? Because I think, if I'm just being fair to everyone here, I would hate for some people to use ADHD or

or their diagnosis to get out of stuff as an excuse I would like I use pregnancy not to do stuff no no but you should be able to use pregnancy to get out of stuff I'd be like I can't I can't breathe he'd be like can you switch on the light I'm pregnant the light's like I can't breathe I'm pregnant I can't breathe excuse for everything

Pregnancy should be used as an excuse for everything. If you were talking to the partner who doesn't have ADHD, how would you counsel them and say, okay, this is where I think your boundary should be, or this is what I think you should look for. And then we'll move on to the partner with ADHD. Okay. So anecdotally, what I tend to notice is that we attract opposites. A person with ADHD is typically going to attract somebody who's more structured routine, right? It helps them. All my exes could pack bags.

I don't know if the thing I want is in the bag. Do not pack my bag for me. You don't want to talk about anxiety? Okay, but you know what that's called? Control. And that's what I was going to say.

A lot of times people who are with someone with ADHD start to get engaged in over-controlling behaviors because you are so worried about what happens when the person with ADHD forgets something. Oh, yeah.

So you overcorrect. And then the person with ADHD becomes resentful because they think you're trying to control them. And really what you are trying to do is manage your anxiety about something being forgotten. Because they forget everything. Because they do forget everything. But they're not forgetting everything to get at you or to be annoying. It's just something that happens. But what then you may do is list out a schedule, make sure that everything is just so. And when that person doesn't comply, you lose it.

When they do comply, you're happy. But what you're teaching them is not to engage in the behaviors on their own. So if I am scheduling all of your appointments, packing all of your bags, when do you have to think and when do you learn to do it yourself? OK, so what you have to watch for if you're the partner of a person with ADHD, you don't have ADHD, is that you could start to do too much.

And then you start getting into this control dynamic. And then the person starts to resent you because they think you're trying to control them. And then you resent them for doing double the work. Yes. Do you know something you said there? Because I feel very ignorant to ADHD because I think my brain is probably wired the opposite way. When you said that piece about...

the control and you're doing it for them. You're saying that people with ADHD are capable of doing these things. Absolutely. You just need a system. Okay. Because in my mind, I'm like, oh, you just can't do it. But they are capable. You're capable, but it's that your system may not look like the person who's over control systems.

Your system may be, okay, when it comes to packing a bag for me, I'm going to set that bag out three days in advance. But guess what? An hour before it's time for me to go to the airport, I'm still rifling through that bag. Because there's something I've forgotten or I decided like I had two blazers and then I'm like, I don't like these blazers. Throw the blazers out. And then I'm like, well, maybe I'm going to need the blazers. Put the blazers back in. So I start to question myself. My brain is getting busy. I'm getting distracted. I'm overwhelmed.

So even though I had the goal of being prepared, I still find myself struggling an hour before I'm supposed to go. Because it's not now. Because it's not now. But when it's now, I'm like, well, got to go with what's in this bag. Exactly. So yesterday I had to go with my blazer. So it requires something. I love how it was about you. I love it.

So I'm going to be real with you all. I'm not going to point fingers. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Do you know what? I think that means for the person who is not neuro spicy and is wide in a very typical way, it requires a lot of acceptance because part of me is judging. I'm like, what's wrong with you? But guess what? When you want to have fun.

Who do you call? Exactly. Trevor. See? Because, and if he doesn't come, you're sad. Because you're like, I'm not going to be able to push myself to have fun the way I have fun with Trevor. It's true. It's true. Have you ever thought about all the crazy specific jobs out there? And I mean like crazy and I mean specific. For example, did you know a company is currently hiring for a psychic in California? This is a real thing. Yeah. Yeah.

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Christiana, I always wonder what jobs do you think you would be good at? Like, do you think you'd be a good life coach? No. A good... No. Wow. I wouldn't be a good life coach. No, because...

I will probably tell you that it's not going to go well for you. And you need someone like inspiring. You know, I think I'm just too cynical and real to be a life coach. I'm going to go the opposite way. And I say, I think we need a few more life coaches who tell people, hey man, this is not working. Just give up. Yeah, don't do it. This rap thing, it's not working out for you. Yeah, this rap thing. I actually think if we had more life coaches like you, people would be in better careers and the world would be a better place. And not everyone would try to go viral on TikTok. Yeah.

I just be like, medicine, accounting, engineering. We need more plumbers, electricians. I'm just going to tell you to do regular jobs and make some money. But the rest of the stuff, no. Not for me. I can't believe that people are hiring psychics. Yeah, if you're going to get your witch, that's word of mouth. A witch is not something you code.

What do you even ask in that interview? I would just sit there and I'd be like, well, you know what my questions are, aren't they? Yeah, that's true. You know the questions. Maybe I'm a little too closed minded. But if I was working at a company and they said, hey, guys, I know things have been going bad for the past few quarters. But the good news is we've hired a psychic.

I'd be like, huh, okay. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go on ZipRecruiter and see if there are any other companies out there who are hiring for my position. Well, I do want to work somewhere that's open to the spirit realm, but that's a bit too open. You know what I mean? I actually do like that. I would love to work in a company that had a psychic on staff just for the vibes. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Just like lunchtime vibes. Just go check in with the psychic, see how things are. I like that actually.

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It's also difficult to try and explain to people how many fights in their relationship aren't necessarily fights, but they're a manifestation of ADHD meeting up with non-ADHD. So I didn't, until I delved into all of this, I didn't know

that for an ADHD brain, for the most part, not all brains, but for most ADHD brains, arguments are fun. Yes. Coercive cycle of interaction. There's a term for it. Coercive cycle of interaction. You are reinforced by your coercive behaviors. And this is what we teach in Behavioral Parent Management Training, another plug for an evidence-based intervention for ADHD. So in Behavioral Parent Management Training, the first step is teaching parents about the coercive cycle of interaction.

And how their kids are reinforced to continue arguing because they eventually get what they want. And parents are reinforced to be more punitive because they eventually get what they want. So when you get when you've done that as a child with your parent and then you get into a relationship and you're like, I can prove that I'm right. I can get you to see that the way I'm thinking is the way you should be thinking.

And you just continue to engage in this spiral until you win. And the other person is pissed. Oh, they gave up because they're exhausted. They're exhausted. Because the ADHD person can keep going a lot of times. And you'll be like, can you just stop? And they're like, no. So instead of telling them to stop, you'd give them the positive opposite behavior, the to-do behavior. So instead of would you stop talking, it's can we take a quiet moment?

Can you be quiet? What do I want you to do? Okay. So instead of stop arguing, can we change the subject? Or sometimes you got to kind of just turn away and like wait to catch them being good and then turn back. Like if you're taking me down that spiral where you're trying to argue with me, I'm going to like turn away, pretend to do something else. And then the minute you get quiet, even if it's by accident, thanks Trevor for being quiet. But I think sometimes people take for granted, and I'm saying this from experience,

It's like ADHD people, we are not arguing. And you're not an ADHD person. You are a person with a neurodivergent brain. Okay.

All I feel like you did there was like, it's like going, you're not homeless, you're unhoused. That's what you just did to me. She said the poetic version. You really did. You really did. You're like, no, Trevor, you are not a homeless person. You are a person who does not have a home to live in. You are, no, seriously, it makes a difference. Okay, okay, fine. You are Trevor who happens to have a brain that is neurodivergent. Okay, okay, I'll take that. All right. Sorry. No, no, this is fine. So I think what people take for granted is this.

And sometimes it's because we don't know to articulate it as people. Sometimes we don't even know what's happening.

Some people think of it as an argument, but it's not an argument. Do you get what I'm saying? So the ADHD brain is just having fun and it's going, let's discuss the merits of, and you just go. It's just attention seeking behavior. Exactly. And you're spinning and you're spinning and you're spinning and you're spinning and you're spinning, but you're just having fun trying to figure this puzzle out. Now a non ADHD person goes like, no, but, but, but why are you, no, just let it go. They're getting triggered, they're emotional. They're getting angry. And then at the end of it, and I've seen this happen, like in my group of friends, all,

All the ADHD friends will like hang out together. All the friends who have a neurodivergent brain. Yes. Thank you for using that term. They'll be energized at the end of a group argument and they'll go like, that was fun. And then all the friends who don't have a neurodivergent brain. Are pissed.

They are pissed. They're worn out. They're carrying it. I can't believe you said, why did we fight? You know what? I'm tired. And the rest of us are going, wait, what? This was fantastic. This was fantastic. We argued the merits of Mesopotamian laws. And from that, we understood why we shouldn't be eating fried chicken tonight. Just the understanding of it helps. Because to your point, if you understand that I'm not doing something to you. Yes.

Then you don't think of it that way. So, you know, some divergences, we'll call them, whatever they may be, physical or mental, are more apparent than others. If somebody's blind, we normally can see that they're blind. If that person bumps into you, most rational human beings will never go, yo, what's with you going? You bumped into me. You'll be like, oh man, the person's blind. Oh, person's blind. Yeah.

You know what I mean? If somebody rolls up in a wheelchair and they can't go up the stairs, no one goes like, get up the stairs. You go like, oh, let's get the ramp or can we help someone? Because there's a signifier that tells us that this person is divergent physically. Mentally, there's almost no signifiers for this. So you meet someone with ADHD, you don't realize...

That you started speaking Their brain hadn't even Started pressing the record button Right You started a whole conversation You got home You started talking to your partner Oh hey honey You know I was just thinking We gotta do And don't forget the thing You know I can't believe And then The person goes like What? What just happened? And they're like Oh my god Did you listen to anything I just said? And that's so annoying Yes And it's not that they're Not listening to you

If there was a way for you to be sick, you know, if they could signify it, you'd realize, oh, the record button wasn't on. You hadn't paused for a moment. The same way I've seen people pull out their phones, stand at a concert and record a moment. And then I look at their phone. I realized they never pressed the record button. But then they blame themselves. They go, ah, okay.

I didn't press record. I'm an idiot. Yes. And I sometimes say to people, I know it's a bit of a burden, but think of it that way when you have an ADHD partner. Ask yourself if you've pressed record. Like one of my best friends taught me this and he has ADHD, but he literally will be talking and

And he'll notice that my brain is, I'm finishing an email. He'll say like, oh man, I got to tell you this thing that happened. So I was at the office and then he'll pause and he'll go like, I'll wait for you to finish. And I go, no, no, I'm here. He's like, no, no, no, finish the email. Do you know, the funny thing is I hearing you both speak today, I think there's something about if you're the non-ADHD parent or partner, whatever you are in relation to someone with ADHD, right?

I think it can really increase your empathy and your sense of patience if you really sit with the diagnosis. Because what you're saying right now, whether somebody has ADHD or not, to say to your partner, let me...

just finish what you're doing and we'll talk when like you can give me your full attention yeah would change so many or even dealing with your child because sometimes i like you just say things to a kid but maybe the kid is like with their legos with their dolls or whatever did they had they have you pressed record yeah have you pressed record you haven't pressed record okay we'll come back to it yes it'll kind of just transform oh i need you to press record right now that also helps me as well someone goes like hey no no can you put that down yeah i'm

No, no, I need you. Then I'm like, oh, okay. Even signaling urgency helps an ADHD brain. Absolutely. So if you say to me like, if you as Christiana go like, oh, friend, I need your help. Immediately my brain goes like, yo, what's happening? I love that. What's happening? And then I focus. I won't look at my phone. I won't. But if you just tell a story and it's like the music of it doesn't signal urgency. And my brain just goes like, oh, she doesn't need me.

And I don't realize my brain's doing this. I'm thinking of four things at the same time. So it's how you communicate to an ADHD person. It's complete. Make sure record has been pressed. Then you can like fight with them if they're not doing the thing you'd hope them to do. But I promise you the difference it makes is insane. You say, I need you to listen to me right now. Or you say, listen...

Let me know when you're done. And all of a sudden it just changes the dynamic that you have with somebody. And that's the antecedent intervention. That's setting up the environment for success. You say, press record or let me know when you're ready to press record signals to his brain that I've got to do something. I've got to behave differently. And then he's able to follow through and then you reinforce him because then you continue to talk to him once you know that he's ready to listen. Okay.

Consequence is you all are connected. So like what you all just did right now, there was connection there. You gave feedback about when you were able to really hear her. And then you were like, thank you for giving me that feedback because now I know how to cue you in when I need to talk to you. And that's what doesn't happen in partnerships and relationships.

Whether it's parent to child, romantic. Parent to child, spouse to spouse, family to family. That's what we don't, that's like a process thing. We don't take time to process things because we're so focused on moving forward and getting to the next thing. And so to have the opportunity to say, especially to your significant other,

I need you to press record or I need you to say, hey, can you put your phone down? Because like with kids, we're accustomed to like snatching a tablet, turning off a screen to get them focused. As adults, we're just as guilty of being preoccupied with Instagram, with our screens, with our phones. And sometimes we need help to get away from those things so we can actually attend to each other.

You know, and like one of the things I say to little kids that I'm working with in intervention is give me your eyes. Thank you for looking at me. Now that I know that you're looking, I think you can listen. Please pass me that. And then we continue to maintain eye contact. It really helps them to know that I'm engaged. And so in a relationship, if you have ADHD or you don't have ADHD, I think that's a skill that we could all learn because many of us think we have ADHD because we are so wired to screens right now.

We're so reinforced with screens. We're so reinforced by multitasking. We are hearing a lot of noise and we don't take a lot of time to be fully present and aware in this moment. I have a question about setting up for success that I've seen a lot of parents grapple with and it's the question of medication. Yes. Now, I'm a millennial and I think we're like the Ritalin generation as well. And there's a lot of millennials who felt that they were

over-medicated that they look back at their childhood and they're like I felt like a zombie they're trying to figure out who they are without the presence of some sort of medication and I think a consequence of that is that a lot of millennial parent people who are becoming parents now who are medicated as kids are maybe reluctant to medicate their children do not know when they should introduce that modality what are the ethics of it can you even you know I struggle giving my kids to

I'm like, is this a gateway drug to some other shit? I hear you. I know. Okay, so let me talk to you about that gateway drug thing. In my opinion, that is a cultural belief that comes out of the crack pandemic, right? We know that there were specific...

plans and things that were done to make sure that a certain group of people were destroyed by a drug. And over time, we have become very wary and suspicious. And it is healthy cultural paranoia about the use of medications and drugs. How can we get hooked? How could this ruin life for us? Because we had a whole generation that this impacted.

What I want you to know when it comes to stimulant medication, any of the psychotropic medications is consider the ways that you are self-medicating.

Are you using gummies and weed just to get out of the bed and have a good time? How much alcohol are you drinking? How much are you indulging and overeating? Is this a symptom of some difficulty that you are having in your life? The medication you take for depression is not the same class of medication that we take to address ADHD. And so what you need to know is for stimulants,

Stimulus can be abused and they're the same class like their amphetamines. Those things, amphetamines are similar to what's in cocaine, right? It's an amphetamine as well. The difference is it's highly regulated. It's been studied. It's been studied in children. And we can pretty much tell that there have been there's at least 30 years worth of data about people being successfully treated.

One thing about stimulant medication is once it's in your system, eight hours typically is out of your system. Unlike other classes of medication that take weeks to build up in your system. That's like antidepressants. Yeah, it takes about two weeks to build up. You can't go off of them instantly. So I'll tell you, one of the craziest, craziest things I learned actually made me really, really sad because then I had to go back and think about how it affected my relationships. I have had this crippling feeling whenever I travel.

Day one of any trip. I'll fly somewhere. I land there. Vacation. And immediately I go, I need to go home. Oh, anxiety. Immediately. And my brain is like, I need to go home. I need to go home. What am I doing here? I need to go home. I need to go home. I need to go home. I need to go home. I need to go home. So what would happen is sometimes I'd be on a trip.

I would be with my partner, we're somewhere. They couldn't get me to leave the hotel room. They couldn't get me. And they would be like, what is going on? I was like, I think I need to go home. And I can't imagine what they were going through. But for me, I was trapped. And until I understood how dependent an ADHD brain is on routine, did I then understand what was happening. It was like, oh, because it's a new place, time zones have screwed me over.

I also have nothing to do, which is the most crippling thing, funny enough, for an ADHD brain.

What are we doing? What do you want to do? What do you mean what do I want to do? I don't know. My brain jams. My brain, I know how to give me a schedule that's from, you know, 8 a.m. until midnight. I'm fine. Give me space. The brain panics because ADHD, you know, too many choices. And then now literally what I'll do is I'll only medicate most of the time when I'm traveling first day because I just know for that first day, it just brings my brain down. Wow.

I don't think about what's tomorrow, what's the next day, what's the next day, what am I doing on the trip? Because I would rush to the conclusion of the trip. And I know a lot of people will do that with ADHD in the now and not now is your brain has the ability, but I mean, infinitely. So do you know how many ADHD people I'll speak to as like kids or parents or just people? And I have such empathy for them because I go, you don't understand what you're experiencing.

So you might think, for instance, you have depression. But I go, no, no, your depression is from ADHD. It's not just like a depression, which it could be on its own. But sometimes this is what my brain will do. And I've spoken to a lot of people who experience this. I'll wake up in the morning. I go, what time is it? Oh, it's 30 minutes before I need to get up. Okay, fine.

Should I sleep? No, maybe I'll wake up. Okay, I'll wake up. Then what do I do? I've got to go brush my teeth. Then I've got to shower. Then I've got to get dressed. Then I've got to leave the house. Then I've got to go to the office. Then I've got to have that meeting. Then I've got to have that next meeting. Then I've got to have that other meeting. Then I've got to do that thing. Then I've got to go to the dinner that those people have planned. Then I've got to come. Oh, then I've got to find time to work out. Then I've got to plan my outfit for the next day. Wait, then you do it the next day. You do the same thing. You brush your teeth again.

Oh, you got to get clothes again. Wait, how many years does this happen for? Wait, like, so we just going to do this for like 80 years, 90 years. We're just going to keep on doing this. And then what? The next generation does it. And then it's, why am I waking up? Wait, I'm going to come back to bed anyway. What's the point of leaving the bed? Why am I leaving? Why am I waking up? What are we all doing? Why are we building these things? Why are we? No. And you will be shocked.

at how ADHD brains can do this for everything for people. So even in a relationship, you'll have a fight. Mm-hmm.

And then your brain goes, oh, fight. And this is how it ends. What's the point of relationships? End. Everything ends with end. And there's typically a time of day. There's a place. Everybody's got one. Yes, you're not wrong. There's a time of day. Oh, the rumination is, and that's an anxiety thing too, but that rumination as part of ADHD is made. It really is. And if it's a certain time of day, I'm a nighttime person. I can lose my mind at night. Can I tell you? Yeah, get loose.

So if there's one thing I've learned for my brain, the mornings is where I have the biggest feelings of what is the point of this whole thing we're doing. Right?

The evenings is where I have the, I mean, anything can happen. So it's like existential morning, crazy evening. Yo, the morning, the morning, no, the mornings. Let me tell you something. In the mornings, can I tell you something? The worst thing you can do to me in the morning, the worst thing you can do to me in the morning, and I've experienced this. I remember someone turned to me in the morning and said, hey, do you love me? This is in the morning. Just that?

Well, do you love me? Did you love them? And I did. But I did. But I did. But my brain went, what? How does anyone define love? What is love? Oh, and that pissed that. Oh, you. Oh, that poor person. And what is it about my words that will make you feel like your day got better or worse? And then my brain was like, huh? And my brain did that. And in my brain, maybe this was.

two seconds but it lasted a lifetime to the person they went whoa what was that pause what was that pause and then i go no no yeah of course i love you then they go like no what was that pause and now we're in fight land the day just started right but we're in fight land because the person i can't believe you put why do you put now if i explain it it's it's terrible well but why would you even think that what kind of person would think okay wait so message for the person of the person with a person with adhd is not always about you

That's hard to learn though. That's hard because it always, it should be always about me. But it's not like that pause or that like reticence is not necessarily about you. It's about something that's going on in that person's head that you don't even know about. Yeah. And then the nighttime version is, and I know this with like a lot of my ADHD friends, that's like, we call that sugar time. Yeah.

What is sugar time? What is that? Literally, it came from Start zooming? No, it came from the direct thing Which was sugar So we all start craving sugar I can't eat sweet things in the morning Pancakes I don't know how people do that I'm like, no Sugar cereal Night time?

Let me tell you something. If there is sugar hidden in your house, I will find it. If you think there's sugar in your house and you're not sure where it is, call me over at night and I will find that sugar for you.

And then my brain then goes like, but for, and we call it sugar time because it's like the, it's sort of the manifestation of sugar as a concept. It's like sugar time for everything. Then it's like, what's happening? Where's it happening? Who's it happening with? Where are we going? What are we doing? Oh yeah. Sleep is terrible. Nothing good has ever happened during sleep. No. Tell me one great story that involves sleep. None. What about a, what about a good dream? History is, there's no, I mean, okay, MLK had a dream. Okay. Wait a minute.

No, but he first had the dream of sleep. He had the dream. So maybe that's the only great thing that's happened in sleep was his dream. The rest of history happened while people were awake. I love that you said that because it's learning yourself, being honest with yourself, and

And if there's one piece of advice I would give people, think of the ADHD as this little gremlin passenger in my life who I have a fun relationship with, by the way. I don't resent it. I don't hate it. But what I'll do is I'll call it out. Like I'll actively say, at times, you'll find, if you leave a microphone in my home, randomly you'll hear me going, ah, hello, ADHD. I just say this every now and again. I'll just be like, ah, there you are. Because my mom's going to be like, spirit. Yeah, my mom's.

It's the spirit My mom actually I love it Yes spirits Come on talk about it But I promise you I promise you I do that all the time Yes Because I've also learned For people with ADHD It's nice to To remove the shame Yeah For sure Because people will tell you The thing you're experiencing Is bullshit They'll tell you that it's not real You need to get over it You just need to work Just function function function People just say this to you But it's like no Just trust me Take it out of yourself

And say, huh, hello old friend. Yeah, you're just like, ah, look at you. You want some ice cream, do you? No ice cream for you today. And then I'll even play the game. I'll be like, okay, how about this? If you have very cold water and you still want ice cream 30 minutes later, you can do it. And then I'll go and drink like a cold glass of water and see what happens in 30 minutes.

90% of the time I don't want the ice cream afterwards. Because you've moved on. Yeah, but it's also because I've started to learn that sometimes the thing that you look, look, this is for everyone. The thing that you're craving is oftentimes a manifestation of lacking something else. So what I've tried to learn to do is go, ah, what is happening right now? I'm craving ice cream.

But what is ice cream? It's a cold thing. It's a sweet thing. Let me try to break it down. Start with the cold. You're a thinker. Yeah, I'm an overthinker. Yeah. So I start with the cold and then I go, and also what does it do? Okay. It also does hydrate me. So I'll go with something cold and hydrating that has no sugar. See how I feel.

And most of the time I find those small things, but I gamify everything in my life. That's a problem solver too, right? So that's the ADHD brain again, the superpower. You're a thinker. You think very deeply. And then you are willing to try different interventions to solve your problem. So you don't just give up and give in to the ice cream.

And a brain that's like maybe depressed might just say, well, forget it. It's hopeless. It's worthless. I'm just going to give in to the ice cream. You're like, no, this is serving a function. I need to try to figure out what the function of this craving is. How can I come up with a plan so that I don't engage in this behavior? Like there's multiple levels.

And that can be exhausting if you have to deal with every decision you make, which some people get into like analysis paralysis when it comes to that ADHD because they're overthinking whether or not, and it's not necessarily anxiety, but it's like trying to plan out the consequences. Yeah.

Yes. Because you're a problem solver. Yes. And problem solvers are very tied to consequences of behavior. So it's like, well, if I did it this way, this might happen if I did it this way, this might happen if I did it this way. And then you've lost track of time while you're doing all of that. So I think it's good, though, to be a thinker. Yeah. Which is also why the capitalistic society is hard to bring it back. Yeah. Why this has been so useful for me, I just think.

for people that are in community, with people with ADHD, whether you're a parent, a partner, a friend, it's like our job is to understand the superpower, understand how it works, understand if you're drinking some water late at night. Oh, they probably wanted ice cream. They're having the water. Leave them. Don't be like, why are you drinking a cold glass of water at 12.30 in the morning? Just be like,

This is their way of coping. And you just said a word, community. Yeah. We need to be in community with people and other people who have similar and dissimilar experiences because it can get very lonely. Yeah. It sounds like a lonely experience. It can be very lonely. You've got to be in community. Like you've got to find your tribe.

And this is a big thing for me right now with the young adults I'm working with who have ADHD. It's like they have not found their tribe. And then they internalize it and then they feel super depressed. Like, what is wrong with me? Why does it never work? And so what I want to tell young adults with ADHD and teens with ADHD, you will find your tribe, but you have got to seek them out.

And that tribe may not be the people who like look like you or who have the same interests, but the superpower of having ADHD is you're willing to put yourself out there and take a risk.

And so you may have to take a risk with different people. You have a tribe. You haven't found it yet. Because you haven't found your tribe doesn't mean you'll never find your tribe. Because I also get worried about those people in terms of suicidality. Because there's the loneliness. There's the like, does anybody care about me? I can't get anything right. My relationship's in. What's wrong with me? And so just like having some hope and knowing there is, you got a tribe.

And then parents, leave them alone if the tribe is online. Like, they have a tribe. I just want you to have some social connections, safe social connections. I don't want you playing with, like, adults if you're a kid. But we need to have, that's why we have kids in sports and doing activities. We want them to build relationships with different groups of people. But as adults, once we get into our careers, we can become isolated. And so you've got to have community. You've got to have a tribe. You've got to have community. You guys are a tribe.

Yeah, reluctantly. I love it. Enjoy your sleep. Wouldn't have it any other way. Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now? after this. This episode is brought to you by Amazon. Have you ever gotten sick on a very expensive, very non-refundable family trip? Amazon One Medical has 24-7 virtual care so you can get help no matter where you are.

And with Amazon Pharmacy, your meds can get delivered right to your hotel fast. It's kind of like the room service of medical care. Thanks to Amazon, healthcare just got less painful. You know, there's an idea that I have, I'll often say to Christiana,

I go, there's moments where I dream of being a dictator of just like a small, of like a small island. You said this enough times. Yes. I'm concerned. I would love to be a dictator of a small island though. Like just a small place because I think the small number helps you be a little more nimble. I'd be your advisor. Like Sweden, for instance. I would love you as an advisor. You know, Sweden, it's 4 million people or whatever. It's like, it's easy to, it's easier to do things and see how they work. 300 million people is chaos. Mm-hmm.

And one of the experiments I would love to conduct, because I'm sure there will be second system effects, don't get me wrong. But I wonder what would happen, two things. One, I wonder what would happen if we treated almost everybody who we think is an outlier in society just for ADHD. And I know this is a gross malpracticing of science and medicine. So don't co-sign this at all. I'm just telling you about my crazy world.

I would love to see what would happen, no joke, if everyone who is homeless gets ADHD medication. Like people in the street, like we don't want people like, that person's crazy. I genuinely would love to see what would happen. I just want to see what would happen. You give all of them ADHD medication. You give everyone in prison ADHD medication or every kid who's been expelled ADHD medication, everyone. I'm willing to bet money.

Yes, there will be. Please. Terms and conditions apply. There's obviously going to be some people who are like... Yeah, because we don't want them to be manic. If they're manic and they have ADHD medication, it'll go very bad. There you go. So that's what I'm saying. Oh, they have a heart problem. Terms and conditions apply. Right, those are terms and conditions. Terms and conditions apply. I'm not saying... But I'm willing to bet you will see a massive amount of that population no longer have the problem. And I can't help but think to myself, how many people in our society...

Or one intervention away. And not a massive one, by the way. Right. One intervention away from being fully back in society, fully part of a community, and fully being back to who they wish to be as a human being. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So...

I'm from Chicago originally and Cook County Jail. At one time there, the person who was in charge of the director was a clinical psychologist. I think this was a few years back. And she did a program where she had when people came in and they were repeat offenders, they got psyche vows. As part of the psyche vows, they were able to determine that many of the people who were coming through this system, this program actually had met criteria for diagnoses and then they were able to get them medicated.

Right. They were able to get them or even if it wasn't medication, they were able to get them some psychotherapeutic intervention. Yeah. And the types of gains that can be made from doing that type of intervention. Right. So even if you don't have an island, what will happen in terms of reform in the justice system? If people had access to high quality mental health care before they got there. Right. I'm in private practice now.

People will ask, why don't you accept insurance? Insurance companies don't value mental health right now. So they're starting to understand that if we can treat depression, you're more likely to follow through on your medication regimen when it comes to hypertension, when it comes to like the diabetes, right? If you're not depressed, if I've treated your depression, you're going to be more likely to change your lifestyle factors, exercise, diet, et cetera. So if we address mental health first,

we could actually do medicine, physiological medicine, a big service because people would be engaged and invested in taking care of their bodies and making different choices about the way they ate, et cetera, et cetera. But it's almost like mental health care is an afterthought. And so I think there are many different avenues to actually make what you want to see happen, happen. It could be school systems. It could be like, um,

juvenile justice systems, it could, I just think there's ways. I don't think that's a far-fetched idea. It may not be an island. Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't think it's a far-fetched idea. In South Africa with our foundation, the thing we did was we brought in psychiatric help to the schools because they didn't have it. And we found the results were insane. It was exponential. And here's one of the most interesting ones we learned. We learned at our foundation that

Just having someone to talk to improved kids' scores. You literally didn't have to fix the problem. There were kids who were coming from homes where they were neglected, they were abused, they were beaten, whatever it was. And we were like, what do we do? How do we fix this? And then we were humbled to realize that most of the kids weren't looking for someone to fix it. They just needed somebody to speak to. And all of a sudden their grades would improve. They just needed somebody to say, you're not crazy. Your parents aren't treating you well.

Your community isn't looking after you. And yes, you're validated. And the kids' scores would go up. And you're like, this is, come on, this is beyond basic. The other thing I think of, and, you know, we've said it multiple times in this conversation, and I love how you've tied in. There was a beautiful conversation that I had on The Daily Show.

with a woman who is one of the foremost disability advocates in the US. So she was part of the team that was behind the Disability Rights Act in America. So people take for granted there was a time when places didn't have ramps. Places didn't have any accessibility features at all. It was like, oh, you can't come upstairs? Tough luck. And she said something really fantastic to me. She said, you know, the biggest arrogance and mistake people make is one, they always assume that they will never be disabled. Oh, yeah.

Right. She's like, no, you just it can happen to you through age, through accident, through whatever it is in life. It can always it's it's it's an opt in service, surprisingly. And she said, you also take for granted how the idea that seems like a burden today because you're doing it for others is actually the thing that's going to help you. So they designed ramps at supermarkets for people with disabilities. Do you know who uses ramps more than anyone now?

is people who are fully able-bodied and have found it's an easier way to roll things up and down into a supermarket. I'm always with my stroller. Ramps are game changers for me. I can take all three kids into a supermarket because there's a ramp. And then you go, thank you, disability advocates. Do you get what I'm saying? All the things, and it's like, it seems, and I think of it, let's go through everything we discussed today. We start with the kids, right? You go...

Everything you're talking about for an ADHD kid, if we learn how to implement those systems for ADHD kids, other kids benefits. Right. How do you make a classroom more engaging? Yeah.

How do you talk to your child? How do you engage with your child? How do you empathize with them? You apply that to a non-ADHD brain, it's still going to be rewarded. It's still going to reward you. The things that you said about athletes and finding purpose on the other side of life and the pivot. Yeah, that's great for ADHD, but you know who it's also great for? Everyone else. People are going to switch careers. People are going to change what they're doing in life. People are going to find themselves a little unmoored.

And this is the same thing. All of a sudden, you found a path. You go to relationships. Yes, your partner might have ADHD. And so it helps to say, hey, are you listening to me? Or I need you to listen right now. Or actually, hey, I noticed you're in your trigger right now. Go relax, go sleep. Let's not do this now because you're going to...

You know who that also helps? People in normal relationships. It's just ADHD is the most acute example I find. And it's also the most obvious at times. But I think like if we solve the world for ADHD people, it solves the world for everyone. We're almost like the canaries in the cold mine, I think, where I genuinely think we are. You're showing like the sickness. Let me tell you something now. I'll tell you now.

If a kid thinks it's boring, they're right. Absolutely. Because people be like, kids can't pay attention. Yo, kids can play 18 hours of Fortnite. They can definitely pay. I took my son to a dinner and we were like 45 minutes through and he said, how do you guys listen so long? I was like, 10 more minutes and we're out. And he was right. It was just going on.

On and on and on. And it was like, yes, we don't have to do all of this. Yes. Do you know where I was never bored as a kid? Where? You know where I was never bored? Black church. Yes. Never. Because someone would be like, no, it's about listening. Yo, when we would go to white church, it was just, all right, here we go. John 3, verse 16. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever loves him shall not perish, but have eternal life. I was like, okay. Black church. I don't care if you were four years old or 40 years old.

That pastor made that sermon come alive. Call and response. Exactly. You're engaging. You're engaged. You're standing up. You're standing. And even as a child, I was like, yes. In Jesus' name. Praise the Lord. I was like, wow. I might not understand all these concepts, but I'm... My kid says, what is happening here?

Like, if somebody happens to go down there, I'm like, hey. And the pastor will, like, repeat something. You know, I don't think you heard me. I'm going to say it again. I'm going to say it again. Right. I'm going to say it again. Because he knows we have ADHD. You see what I mean? But no, that works for the whole congregation. And so I feel like, like, in these things, sometimes people, I can understand, if you don't have ADHD, you're going like...

Like, ah, this silly sounding, because it really sounds like a little quirky little, you know, disorder that people have. Everyone has ADHD. That's the response. And everybody does not. I also struggle to get out of bed. Get over it. You think I like the office? Get over it. Oh, please. You can't pack your suit. Get over it. I understand where you're coming from. But mark my words. If you listen to ADHD people and you quote unquote fix the world for them,

you will live in a better world. I grew up someplace that was not quite as loud at night, but our brains can exist. I think they can. And I think sometimes if you take that, so I'll challenge my friends who are parents of ADHD kids and I'll say this to them. I'll go, and I go, please, I say this,

With all the compassion in my heart, because I know you're busy. I know you're tired. I know, I know all of, I'm not saying you're not. And even a person who's in a relationship with someone with ADHD, I know it's, I know it's annoying. I know how much you hate repeating yourself. I know how much you feel like you're, you know, going through the same cycle. I say all of those caveats.

But you'll be shocked at how much fun you can have and how much it can benefit you to take it as a fun challenge. So for instance, I say to parents of ADHD kids, sometimes your child with ADHD who's like climbing on the couch and then like standing on a thing and then doing somersaults in the living room. You know what they might actually expose for you if you're willing to listen to it? They might show you how little you move. Do you know what I'm saying? Because you're living a sedentary lifestyle. Mm-hmm.

You barely move. You sit at the office, you sit in your car, and then you sit at home. Now, another child is able to mold themselves to match what you're doing. An ADHD kid cannot. They need to get the thing out of their body. It's pent up energy. But now they're exposing it. Like you go like, this kid can never sit still. But sometimes you should ask yourself, go like, huh.

I've noticed that we sit still quite a lot. Like look at that as a challenge and go like, okay, every time they do that, do 20 squats with them. Do jumping jacks with them for a minute. Yes, exactly. But this is my point. This is exactly my point is that sometimes you can find things that you've taken for granted.

That can actually help you as well. And that like the gamification can go both ways is what I'm saying. But it's like, yeah, solve the world for others and solve the world for yourself. I love it. That's a beautiful reframe. Yeah. This has been so much fun. It was so much fun. Thank you. I hope we have you back again. And by the way, thank you for being a bridge as well. You know, I think as you said, you know, like I'm black. People just take for granted how culturally certain cultures are going to catch up to certain ideas in different ways. Right. And, and,

I remember when I was diagnosed. My first time actually was when I was diagnosed with ADD. Back then they just called it... Attention Deficit Disorder. When it was just ADD. In fact, no. Back then they called it hyperactivity. That's all they called it. Okay. So that was like...

This was, I was like six or five. So you know what it probably was, was the ICD-10, which is the international system. Probably. Was calling it one thing. And then the United States system was calling it ADD. Right. And so now they try to be on the same page. So they said to me, they said to my mom. So the school said to my mom, I guess they did a good job. They said, hey, you need to take this kid for evaluation. He's very smart, but he's chaos. Mm-hmm.

But he's not rude. He's not anything. He's just chaos, though. And she took me in, and they told her that. And when we came out, I said, what did they say? And my mom said, these people, they said, you're hyperactive. I said, yes, he's a child. And they said, no, but he's very hyperactive. And I said, so what do we do? And she said, honey, we pray. We pray, honey. Let's move on. And I said, but we've been praying. And she said, no.

I said, well, we've been praying and it hasn't worked. And she said, yes, sweetie. And that's then once the praying doesn't work, then that's what the beatings are for. She said, we'll beat it out of you, my child. And you know what was my favorite thing is she made it seem like it was going to be a team effort. My mom didn't make it seem like I was going to get beaten. She was like, honey, not even a threat. She made it like, honey, you know what, baby, we're going to beat this thing.

We will take a stick and we will beat this thing out of you, baby. We're not going to let it win. And I'm there like, this sounds like a team talk, but I'm the one who's going to be beaten in this team talk. But no, the reason I say thank you for bridging the gap is because it doesn't matter, black, Latino, you know, you name it. Do you know how many of my Asian friends have told me in a different way that

They've had like a, it's not the spiritual one. Their one is like a, no, no, suck it up, keep moving vibe. Yeah. It's like, oh, but my brain, no, no, no. What do you mean your brain? Hey. You make it work. You make it act right. I think it would be great for us to find those bridges because somebody sees a doctor who looks like them, sounds like them. So you don't roll your eyes when someone says, that's a spirit. That's a demon. You don't go like. They bring up a spirit. I'm totally, I'm going to be like, okay, you did it first. Yeah.

But you see, I think so. That's what I was going to say. Yes, that's what I was going to say. We take for granted that most of the ideas of professionalism that we've adopted in society are a homogenous idea of professionalism, right? So we go, that's not professional. What we mean is that's not stock standard white man, like waspy white man as well. Because Southern white man, my Southern friends, they have a different vibe of what professionalism is. They'll say things, hey, darling. It's like, hey, hey.

That's not professional. You don't call people darling. But there you do. And then you go all around the world. Italians have different professionalism. French people have different professionalism. And I think that's something we take for granted. When we're treating people, helping people, discussing things with people, we forget that, guys, an African doctor will joke with you

in a setting where no joke would be told you know what I mean like a white person would go I cannot believe because an African doctor can come in and just be like so you're dying right

And you're like, what? Yeah, you're dying. You're dead this week. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. No, I'm joking. No, their blood test came back. You're looking good. They'll be like, that is unprofessional. There's an African, there's an element of like, ah, you come on. You can't be serious all the time. And I think those things are beautiful to examine. It's like, it's fun to be in a space with somebody who knows you, even though they've never met you. Because then I think they can help you get to the place where

They're helping you fix the problem, but they're not seeing who you are as part of the problem. They're not seeing your culture as part of the problem. They're able to split it and go, oh, no, no, no, that's not a problem. That's just black. This is the thing we're actually trying to solve. So it's been really wonderful meeting you. Thank you. You're doing the good work.

What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?