Wringing in the New Year [VIDEO]
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Welcome to What Now?, another episode of the podcast where this time I'm in South Africa. And if you've listened to enough of the podcast, you'll know that when I'm in South Africa, that means I'm with my people. And when I'm with my people, we create different episodes. On one of the first ones I did, I did for my 40th birthday, was Anilem Doda, a good friend of mine. She's a broadcaster. She is an executive producer, an all-around media mogul, and most importantly, a super mom.

And my other friend, Sizwe Glomo. He's a TV presenter, a radio host, a business person in economics. I think he has a degree in something. He studies a lot, whatever. The point is, he's a friend and we're going to be chatting together. Disclaimer for everyone who listens. These are South Africans. I'm including myself. So we're going to talk like South Africans.

And yeah, whatever happens, happens. Because when my friends and I do a podcast, we try and make it as informal as possible. So if you're looking for like the dictionary definition of like a simple podcast, you came to the wrong place. Scroll to the next one in your feed now and enjoy that. But if you're looking for like an honest get together of three human beings who love, respect and fight with each other, then you've come to the right place. Welcome to What Now? What Now?

This is What Now with Trevor Noah. This episode is brought to you by Ultra Running. Ultra makes performance running shoes that are insanely comfortable with a roomy toe box and zero to low drop. This helps keep your feet in a more natural position so you can move how you were designed to. Perfect for the road, trail, or gym. You could wear them for miles and forget that they're there. Stay out there with Ultra. Try Ultra for yourself with a free 30-day trial and free shipping at ultrarunning.com.

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This sounds great. We're hearing nothing. You even put sound thingies. Yeah.

You, your face went, bitch, who do you think I am? Oh, man. You look at me like, yeah, this is who I am. Oh, that is so funny. Bitch, who do you think I am? Like,

So welcome guys. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Can you still say Happy New Year? Yeah, dude, of course. What do you mean? Until, okay, what's your time? What's your cutoff? I mean, you know. Valentine's Day. It depends how well I know you. It depends how well I know you. So with you guys, it's like, okay, you're pushing it now.

So we are at the cusp. Yeah. People you're close to, you should have said Happy New Year on the 1st of Jan. Otherwise, we're not close. I've never thought of like a scale, like a gradient for when you can say... Everything is on the spectrum, bro. Yeah, you're truly a math guy for everything. Caesar's got like a graph for everything. The x-axis is friendship time. Then the y-axis is... But remember, Caesar didn't have friends. He's got cousins. We are the first friends in Caesar's life. Please, let's remember this. Happy New Year, guys. Happy New Year.

That's funny. Happy New Year to you too. Yeah, man. Stranger? What do you mean stranger? I can see what you said. If you're a friend, you should have said happy New Year. Oh, wow. Oh, you came back with that on, didn't you? All right. All right. At least you're on form. We're in the mix. I think differently about the conversations we're going to have because I enjoy delving into your minds as friends, but also as problem solvers.

And then I find sometimes when we have these conversations, like the last one we did on the podcast, people were just like, oh yeah, that was an interesting conversation. And you guys, your friendship. And what I realized is friendship is almost the cooking apparatus that we use to figure things out. Does that make sense? I get you. Because everyone can have a conversation. But I find when you have a conversation with your people, there are extra ingredients and extra tools that you have, namely your friendship, that defines some of the conversation that you can't get with a stranger. Yeah.

I think it's good to have a conversation with your friends because we can say, ah, don't say that one in public. Keep that one here. Wait, do you think that's still a thing? Yes. You guys do to us. No, no, wait, wait, wait. No, no, no. And this is an honest question. Yeah. In fact, this is a great question to kick us off because the conversation I wanted to have with you was, what are you worried about? Hmm.

going into the new year moving forward, right? Because a lot of people have like a positive outlook. Yeah. But I'll start with that, funny enough. Do you think canceling is still a thing? I think it's finished.

I think the attempt to cancel is still there. And the fact that there could be an attempt to cancel you means that you could still be canceled because you could be ducking and diving and catch one stray that does cancel you. So canceling is still a thing. This is why it is important to ask your friends first. They call them WhatsApp conversations. You know, sometimes you'll tweet something, you'll put it on X or you'll put it on Instagram and someone will be like, hey, hey, hey, first start with your friends with that one. Test that out. I think it's definitely still a thing.

I don't know. Because if you lose 10% of your income, it's still 10% of your income that you've lost. Oh. Do you know what I'm saying? So you're looking at even like micro cancellations. You're looking at like, yeah, erosion cancellations. Yes. Like, you know. Oh, I was just talking about like, you're cancelled. It feels like it's finished. Like, it feels like we're at a peak. So here's the thing. If I'm using Anel's departure points, right, then I don't necessarily want to take it to cancellation and loss of income.

I would just look at it as just how humans interact. And the first thing is some people don't know who they are. That's the first thing. Okay. Then other people know who they are, but they're uncomfortable with who they are.

Okay. Oh, damn. So now when you have a conversation, there are certain things that they want to hold back, specifically when they're with strangers, because they don't want the strangers to gain insights to the part that they're uncomfortable with. Like their racism or xenophobia? All of that. Yeah. Okay. And it could be anything. Maybe.

Maybe you're a freak. He's like, ah, too much. Okay. So your friends should know you're a freak. Now your friends already know. At least one of your friends. There's nothing here that I can say that can shock you guys. Yeah, at least one of your friends. In the event that you die in a dodgy place, one of us must be like, yeah, well. Yeah. So now. I knew they went there. Exactly. I knew he frequented. You see? A freak.

So now we have those conversations. Then you go, okay, okay, okay. Turn it back a little bit. And again, it's not because you fear being canceled. It's just, again, there are certain things that are just appropriate and others that are inappropriate. That's all it is. Things that are appropriate to in public and things that are inappropriate. Yes. You get like inner thoughts and outer thoughts. Yes. I agree with that. I like how you said this like you studied it in a textbook.

It most likely did come from a textbook. You're so robotic in your thinking. Yeah, no, that's what I mean. But you're so robotic in your thinking that it really sounds like literally the way you said that. There are inner thoughts and there are outer thoughts. Humans only do inner thoughts inside. He's been AI. No, you've been AI the whole time. You've been AI. You really have. All right, so why don't we go around? Well, first, I want the high level of what you're worried about for the year, you know, as we go into the future. And by the way, it's not even just for the year.

It's rather what you're most concerned about at the beginning of the year that you think may be a thing. 'Cause you know, like every year has a different feeling. - Yeah, yeah. - Right?

So I have two. Do you want me to give you the two now or is it one round, a round? No, no, give us the two now and then I want to hear Cesar's and then I'll give you mine and then we'll see where we kick it off. The first one is my son's turning 10 this year and he's reaching the part of his life where he no longer looks inside the home for role models and who to mimic himself on. He's going to look externally. And this wasn't something that was, you know, on top of my mind until we went on holiday and he made a friend. A friend with a discipline problem. Oh.

That by the end of the holiday, I had to say to him, give me your phone. Did you add this boy's number? I said, delete him, block him. We are not going to be friends with him type of thing. And then it had me thinking that, you know, we had a point now where I just have to make sure that his self-esteem is so high and his confidence is so unshakable that things like that don't impress him. He has to remember how...

how he was raised at home. I love this. Don't say more on it. Don't say more on it. Okay, so the problem, we got the problem. This is all the worry. Yes, the worry. All right, what's your second worry? Last year, we had a Christmas party, right? And everybody had to stand up and say what they're grateful for. Yes. Obviously, people are grateful for, you know, work and, you know, good relationships and, you know, being financially sound. Yeah. Somebody...

stood up and said that he is grateful for how he out of 60 people he's the only one who said that and it got a lot of us thinking that you know we're at a place where anything could be something like right now I have an issue with my shoulder and I'm so scared to go and check it out because I'm so scared they're gonna say something like oh you've got six months I'm like no

I've got things to do. I can't have six months. And I promise you, my health is something that is just starting to appear in my list of things that I worry about. That you actually think about. A lot more than it did because sooner or later, you know, you have to come to terms that you're not immortal. You're not going to be around here for long, you know? Damn, these are very...

Okay. These are existential worries in different ways. Cees, what are you worried about? So this year per se, not too much. Last year I was worried about maybe the possibility of old war three. I

I don't think so. So now it's ended for you. Yeah, it's not going to happen now. Wow. These guys fumbled. They fubar the bank. What? They fumbled the World War III? They fumbled the opportunity to start World War III. Is this Ukraine and Russia? Somebody say it like that. No, all of them. This guy just said Israel, the US. They fumbled the opportunity to start World War III. They fubar the bank. Damn. Okay, so you're no longer worried about World War III? I mean, that's a great way to start. But in the short to midterm,

I am worried about the type of world that my kids will grow up in. You've got kids? In theory. Okay. Guys, you never know. Your friends can now announce things. And it's more to what Anile was talking about as well, right? Because you can do everything in your power to protect your children and those that you love within the ambit of your circle, but then they need to exist within a community, right? And when they go out,

Hey, man, I'm seeing that we're just getting too liberal right now. And some of those things are going to come back to bite us. Okay. I like this. All right. Great. So-

Anele's worry is your son is now at an age where he's looking externally for role models. Second thing you're worried about is you're at an age where... Anything is anything. Internal. Yeah, is something. Is something, okay. He's no longer worried about World War III. Phew. But worried about the world that his children will live in. Because now there'll be a world. So now you've got different problems. Okay, cool. The thing I'm worried about... Maybe it touches a little bit on what you're saying. But I worry that the...

I worry that the global experiment has failed or is failing. What's the global experiment? So I think for a long time, we were seduced by this idea that the whole world could come together as one. And I think a lot of it was sold through the lens of trade.

Okay. Do you know what I mean? We've always traded. Don't get me wrong. We've always traded. But a lot of it was sold through the lens of trade. So like the Euro Union, you know, it's like, ah, and then BRICS, Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa. It's like, ah, these blocks that have all come together. And so Europe at some point was like, we don't have a border. You know, if you are European, you can go everywhere in Europe. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that is starting to fail because...

Yeah, I don't think we thought far ahead enough or I don't know if we, you know, crossed all the T's and dots because we also never did it. Did you always believe in it? I was just told that I was too young to like believe or not believe. I believed in it. Oh, you did believe in it. But I'll tell you, I don't think this is anything new. If anything, I just think we need more perspective because if you go into history and just look at how each civilization has a lifespan, it usually ends like this.

Yeah, but that's what I'm... You're just now talking about my worry. Yes. And you just said you don't have to worry. Yeah, you don't. No. Because, listen... It's not about me. You just said to me... Let me just tell you what you just didn't right now. This is what Cesar did. I was on a plane and I said, I'm a little bit worried that this plane feels like it's going to go down. And Cesar said, well, if you look statistically, most planes crash around this age. So you're right, but you don't have to worry.

So let me explain. Let me finish. You're 100% correct. So all civilizations do come to an end, but it has to be that way so that a new civilization may begin. You just have the kind of perspective now at your age, are you 40, 41, where you've seen things go from where they were to where they are. But it's not to say the world's going to end tomorrow. No, I don't even think that. But you're 100% correct. Things are deteriorating at a rapid race.

All right. So which one do we start with? Which worry do we want to handle first? I actually would love to start with your son. I like it. Because we've been there. So that one can give you what works. So before I say anything on it, take me through a little bit about how you feel as a mom of a son, 10 years old. Like,

I understand you saying you worry that he's now going to get external influences. But why is that a worry and not like necessarily a joy? Oh, because I, they already have been external influences, right? Just even you two as an example to the relationship that you guys have with, I like it. It is bordering on uncle, on father figure and all of that, right? And so I think it's the older people because I get to choose them. You must remember that. Oh.

for a very long time I get to choose who is around him I'm honored that you chose me I thought I was just like defaulted in but I'm glad you chose me thank you and now with that is that he you know also he can't control who he's going to meet type of thing so granted yes somebody may spark his interest and it'll be in a good way but

along the line, it's going to be in a bad way. And I just want that he's, to know that he's able to decipher and decide for himself that, ooh, you know, this one is, this one is not the one. So tell us the story about him meeting this kid. Where did he meet the kid and how did you know the kid was bad? And why do you think Alake was unable to discern between the good and the bad of the kid? I prefer a kid who's outright rude. Then I'm like, oh, is that it? Yeah.

You know? I'm like, okay, kid. Let's square up. But this one, it was just like slight discipline issues where if we say, hey guys, let's all go. We're going now. He'll stay in the pool. Almost like looking at me to see, are you going to come in the pool type of thing. Sizing you up. Yeah, sizing. Yeah, constantly sizing me up. And I suppose that's the relationship that he has with his parents, you know, where he's constantly pushing the boundaries. How old was he? Same ages. They're actually seven days apart.

They discovered this. Oh, we're best friends. You know, seven days apart. I'm born this day, he's born that day. So I'm like, oh, okay. So wait, you said get out of the pool. Yeah. He then looked at you. Yeah, like. And then what did you say? I said, I said, get out of the pool.

you know and he kind of like waddled around a little bit as well yeah because I'm trying to picture it's pretty gangster for somebody to be waiting and challenging you looking you in the eyes so he doesn't respond no he doesn't maintaining eye contact that's a G that's a G right there but you see this is what I'm saying is that come out and say we're fighting so I know which arsenal to you know to activate type of thing so now when you're doing this that's funny that's funny

Oh boy, that's funny. And then, so now, now I take like a few because I was also in the pool. Oh, were you in the pool? No, I was swimming with him and then I got out. Okay, got it, got it. So it's also a case of, kid, please understand, I'm not too lazy to jump back in here. I will come and fetch you type of thing. Right? And now, now I'm looking at, I like it. And he's almost like,

he's at the step of the pool. His friend is inside the water and his mother's outside. So it was a moment where he was deciding. It's a psychological tug of war. Yes. Does he want to be good or does he want to be cool? Exactly. You know? So now, so that's how I was like, okay. So it was a few of those things. Maybe we're in the room. We're like, okay, we're going for dinner now. Everybody's ready. This kid, I'm like, hey, let's go. You know?

10 minutes. Now we're standing outside. Even my partner's like, wait, wait. But now our child is standing with us. Now we're waiting for a stranger's child, you know, because we just met you. If I may ask, so what heritage is this child? Is this a... Same as I like it. Everything, guys,

Guys, when I say everything was identical. So you didn't even have like a little African swag you could pull out just a little something. No, not at all. Wow. Not at all. This is actually more dynamic and interesting. I was picturing a white kid and I was like, no, this sounds normal. This is a black kid. Oh, wow. Yeah. When you think about it, Anneli's fear, your fear and my fear are the same fear. Run me through that. So to kind of like break it down in a nutshell, I,

You just got to ask yourself, are you comfortable with the world raising your child? If you were to set your child up into the wild and the wilderness, which is, yeah. Are you comfortable with the sort of person that come back as,

Which speaks to your question and kind of speaks to my fear as well. That's why I was saying that, you know, the job now is to make him so confident and have high self-esteem and understand who he is that he doesn't have to be taken by those things. But the truth of the matter is at that age, because you must remember we're preteen now, we're going into teen. Yeah. At that age,

You are questioning a lot of things. Yes, you know what you were taught, but there are other lessons coming from the outside and they're not always going to be good. So I don't, I'll probably butcher some of it. I'm bad with remembering numbers. But there was a child psychologist who once told me for boys and girls, it's slightly different. But I believe from like zero to two or three, it's all mom.

It's just all mom, right? And then I think from like three to like seven, 10, and it changes for boys and girls, it's mom and dad in terms of like, just like parental household vibe. But then to your point, they say for boys specifically, once they hit like 10, 11, 12, somewhere there,

It's all about uncle, as they call it. It's all about other men or male figures outside the household. Could be a coach. Yeah. Could be a head boy. Who just like, they're the ones who now... Captain of the football team. Yeah, exactly. The numbers are actually 0 to 7 is mom, 7 to 14 is dad or uncle, and then 14 to 21 is external. But because... But who's external? You gave us such specific ones for the first two. No, but you must remember that...

Because kids are growing up at a rapid pace as well. Yeah. For me, and this is not scientific or whatever. I just think that at 10 now, we are already external. Yeah, that's possible. Because also he is going out a lot more than a normal child would have gone out as a 10-year-old 20, 30 years ago. Is there a part of you that wonders if your mom Tai Chi has been enough?

Yeah, there is. The fact that he questions it. Because you must remember, some people just will go along with it immediately. Yeah, yeah. I can see the thought process in Alaka's mind when he goes... And then like, you know, I can see it. I can see it. But also, you know, I've been very careful in...

Because I don't want my child to be scared of me at all. I don't want that. Too late. Ha ha. No, I'm joking. That's right, dude. Oh, wow. Yes, carry on. I'm so glad that entertained you both. That's very funny. You're such a mom, you know. You're such a funny line.

I don't want my child to be scared of me, but I do want him to know that this is the line and this is the line. And to respect me and just to respect other people. And also to respect somebody's decision that they're not going to go. It's like, you know what? I respect that you want to do this, but I am not going to do that. And that's frankly really all I want.

So now, did you explain to Alake, we'll call this anonymous kid X, why X's behavior is not acceptable in this household? Yes. Did he pick it up though? Yes, he did. Oh, so he saw this happening. Yes. And as we're walking back to our room, he was walking so far ahead because he knew, he knew that we want to have, you know, the chat with him. But then I did the most gangster thing, right?

I didn't say anything because I could see he was like, it was chewing him. I didn't say anything. And I just asked and I said, your guy's behavior at the restaurant was really not good.

what we like about you and what we've taught you. He's like, no, I understand. And then he quickly named exactly what he'd done. This is child X. No, this is, I like it. Oh, this is, I like it. Okay, okay. And he quickly like, but then, because we're asking him because there were a point where they weren't within us seeing what they were doing, but then they came back and they just like disheveled and wet. Like they were playing with water some type of thing. Yeah. But he, so he explains what happened. I'm not buying the story, but he explains what happened to my partner. My partner's buying this

I don't know if he was buying it, whatever. Guy to guy as well. They had like a little mano a mano. And I was like, actually you handle it. Leave me out of it. Fine. Go to bed. Three in the morning. I wake up. Because I want him to tell me the story again as he's just woken up. Go into his room. Go into his room. This is on a holiday, bro. Put the lights on, everything.

No, but he doesn't wake up because the lights are on. But I just want that when I do wake him up, the lights are on. So I can see his immediate reaction. I asked him, just give me that story again. Run it by me again. Because I didn't quite catch it. I just want to rewind to the point when you said, I don't want my son to be scared of me. We're at a resort. We're at a resort. And this drill sergeant is turning on the lights at three. To interrogate you. To interrogate you.

I switch on the lights and then I get into bed with him and then I nudge him. I'm like, hey, Baba, wake up. If you wake up, he's like, oh, is it time for us to go already? I'm like, no, no, just quickly.

I didn't quite hear that story. Wow. Run it by me again. And then he ran, he said it and I was comfortable with the answer. And then I was like, but you do understand that this is not behavior that we are accustomed. He's like, no, I get it. And I know that it was wrong. And this is why I was apologizing. And I'm like, okay, cool. I just wanted to know that the story was the story and there wasn't anything else that I need to address. And I said to him, because you know that.

Some kids don't come... Kids don't come from the same backgrounds and from the same homes. Yes. In other houses, they leave the lights off and they let you sleep until the morning. That's how other houses do it. Words. But in this house... Wow. You know, so, yeah. But also, when I did that, because then I got back and then my partner's like, is everything fine? I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's fine. And then, like, then when I woke up in the morning and I told you, you was like...

No, no ways. And I'm like, yeah. And I said to him, you know what? I've never been a mother to a 10-year-old before. So I'm also winging it type of thing. Yeah, that's true. I'm also winging it. Much like he's never been a 10-year-old before and with all these emotions and everything that's going on with him. So we're just going to have to figure each other out. And I have to like negotiate with a 10-year-old terrorist essentially. Yes. And just hope that their logic coincides with yours. You know, I don't know if I ever told you the story.

So Isaac, my youngest brother, right? Him and the middle brother were staying with me in LA and they'd come to visit me and it was this whole thing and we're there for like Christmas and they now got into an age where they're big enough that I have to negotiate with them, but they're still young enough that they do crazy shit, right? Mm-hmm.

So one day we're all having dinner together. We order food, but we plate it. I was like, because I want them to feel civilized. You know what I mean? Because I was like, I'm also the person who eats out the box. But let's do like a family thing. Let's take the food out of the box and put it on a plate like we cooked it. Cool. So we all eat. We put things together. Everything's great. We're done. And when we're done, it's time to clean up. And I say, guys, help me. Let's take everything to the kitchen. And I take like one bowl, one glass.

My brothers stack everything. They stack, stack, stack, stack, stack everything. I'm like, what are you guys doing? They're like, we're taking it to the kitchen. I was like, guys, guys, guys, take one thing at a time. You can come back. My other brother's like, he's like, yeah, but I can do this. I got this. I was like, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's not about whether you've got this. Take one thing at a time. You're stacking like everything. You know what I mean? He's like, yeah, but I'll be fine. I was like, no, no, no, no. You think you'll be fine until you're not fine. Please just take one thing at a time.

He's like, okay. So I go to the kitchen with the one thing. And now, you know, we're doing that thing where we're crossing. So one person goes to the table, other person, one person goes to the table. As I'm at the table with the youngest, Isaac, we're chatting. I hear smash on the other side of the house, glass shattering. And you know, you know what? It's not even like, I'm like, oh, is there a break in? I know exactly what glass that was. So go to the kitchen. I'm like, yo, bro, what happened?

Oh yeah, the glass dropped. I'm like, the glass didn't just drop. The glass dropped because you took more things than I told you to. Then he's like, oh yeah, my bad. Then I'm like, no, not your bad. Not your bad. I told you the thing. So now we're having this like, you know, and he's not even fighting. He's being like very polite and everything. And so now the youngest is like running with the stuff. So he's doing one and one, but he's sprinting back and forth.

So I'm like, okay, no running. So many rules, Trevor. This is what he says. He's like, geez, bro. He's like, so many rules. I'm like, yes, these are the rules for how you make sure that the stuff in your kitchen stays around. Right? And also you don't hurt yourself. You see? So he's running. Guys, at some point I go, yo, I said, walk slowly. Take the things one by one. He's like, yeah, but I run all the time. I'll be good. I was like, yo, just take the things. He's like, but why do I have to do it? And I'll never forget this. In that moment, he's like, why do I have to? And I was like, because I said so.

And you know when like every parent flashed in front, I was like, ah, ah, I have become death. He became Raven. But did he accept that? No, he didn't. But I've always said my youngest brother is probably the smartest person we've ever had in our family. And the most emotionally intelligent. He sat with it. He did what I said. And he came back maybe like 10 minutes later. You know, now there's like a weird feeling in the house. But he came back to me and he said, he said, hey, Trev. He said, um,

I just wanted to apologize for what happened. I didn't mean to offend you. I was like, yeah, I get it. I'm sorry too, you know? And he says, but here's the thing. He's like, the reason I keep asking you why when you tell me to do things, it's not because I want to undermine who you are as a person. He's like, it's because I don't understand why you're doing things the way you do them. So if I just do them the way you do them,

I never really believe in it. I'm just doing it because I've learned it as a rote identity. He's like, but if I actually learn why you do it the way you do, then maybe I can adopt it as my own. And then if I'm challenged by somebody or something one day, I'll know why I do it. So the reason I ask you why is not because I'm challenging you as my big brother. It's just because I really want to understand why you actually do it. Because I don't want to be a robot. I want to be a human being who believes in my actions. So, you know what it made me realize is like, I realized that every parent...

And every adult figure in a child's life will have that frustration. You are bound to be frustrated because you are proposing every idea through the lens of logic and experience. But your kids, rightfully, I think in many ways, are also here to test what those boundaries are. If every child, even us, think of us, the three of us sitting here and everyone who's listening. If you did everything the way your parents did it, half the time you wouldn't be where you are.

You wouldn't have discovered a new way to work, a new type of job, a new career, a new country, a new language, a new sport, a new religion, a new style of dressing. A new relationship. Yeah. Like you literally have to break what they've taught you to make something new. And the difficulty, as you say, is we're all winging it. We don't know what will or won't work. It's just in these moments where you go, look, when we say get out of the pool, get out of the pool.

But it's a tough one because it's like, do you have a... Because I've never had a friend who's a mom. Do you get what I'm saying? Like a friend friend. Thanks, Drew. No. I'm also like, damn, man. This is a way to break up with a friend. No. What I'm saying is... No. What I'm saying is... So what I'm saying is I've never been in the position where I can say this to you and ask you honestly, like...

Do you have a, it's not like you can have a fixed number, but do you have a number of how much you're willing to tolerate his boundary pushing because you think it might be

what creates something bigger and more beautiful than you've ever considered? Definitely. But the thing that we parents are doing now is we're very willing to question the school that he's at because there's too much writing and the kids aren't writing anymore. Let's take him to a school that just does robotics and everything is computerized. It's all sporting, right? Oh, my child is so good at this. Maybe I should take him out of the school because he's going to play for the Springboks. He's going to play for the Proteas and all of that. But I think when it comes to, you know, just discipline and emotion and all of that,

As parents, we're very much holding on to, you know, what you believe at that moment in time. It's very difficult. And I tried very hard with my son where I'm like, okay, level with me. Talk to me, you know, explain to me what was your thinking when you were doing that. Right. So that I can understand. Because like you said, I'm 40 and he's 10. And we really, we different times, right? You know, different times, different ways of parenting as well. And I didn't have that with my mom.

Oh, my dad. It was what they say. Sure. You know, that's the rule. That was the rule. It's also because it's like I'm paying for the house. I'm paying for this. And so, you know, as long as you live under this household, under this roof, you are going to, you know, type of thing. And I don't want that with the house. You know, simple things as well. Like people ask me, why do you knock when you go into your son's room? You know, it's your house. I'm like, yes, but it's his room. Did you knock at 3 a.m.?

You didn't. That was a surprise. And also, that's a hotel. Oh, okay. Oh, nice. Nice. Hey, I see. You know when law enforcement finds all these loopholes? Oh, we didn't need a search warrant because it wasn't your home. In all fairness, the visitor was sanctioned by the Minister of Tourism, right? Gave me keys to the city. So, why do you knock? And I'm like, because I want him to knock when he's coming into my room.

Yeah, you want to model the behaviors. And here's the thing is that I want to show you that I respect your privacy because everybody else in the world must also respect your privacy. Oh, damn. Because if I, how can I say I'm allowed to not to respect your privacy, but everybody else must respect your privacy type of thing. Okay. So I basically treat him the way

I want the world to treat him so that he can know he's like, no, back at home, this is how I'm treated. And you're not treating me the way that I'm treated at home where I'm loved. So this is not going to fly. And actually, that's all you want your kids to be about. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

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Did you ever have a bad influence? Because I know you weren't the bad influence. Yeah, so bad influences are everywhere. No, but I'm saying as a kid, like, did you have a friend where they were like your bad influence? Because I was... The bad influence. In many ways, yes, I will say. But I also think I had many friends. I think we were renegades together, to be honest. Not in my formative years, no. No, you didn't? No.

Because majority of the people that were around me were handpicked by my parents. We come back to the cousins. Exactly. Even my friends, it was really because my parents are friends with these people. And then they'd be like, we're going to so-and-so's house. And then, hey, okay, do me a favor, my friend. It's not like I sought out do me a favor to be my friend. It didn't work like that. But here's my thinking and the approach. And obviously, I think you're doing it well. I think all you can do, look at it like coding.

You just introduce the fundamentals, right? To your child. And then tell them... Do my computer coding. Yes. Okay. But even with human beings, because essentially it is a system anyway. Because we're robots. Because we're AI. Aren't we all? Aren't we all? Aren't we all? So you introduce these fundamentals. I agree with you. Sorry. This program is tripping. Ouch, delete.

Right. So once you've got the fundamentals in place and they understand them, and obviously you guys are in agreement with what the fundamentals are, then you can go to like intermediate programming and tell them, okay, well, now with these fundamentals that you fully understand, what do you think the right thing to do in this situation is? And then he will tell you. And then you go, well, actually, that is the wrong thing to do, Alaka, because if you do that,

For example, Isaac, I know you're used to running, but there's a possibility you may slip and you can't get a glass and you will get impaled by this glass. That's why it's rather safer for you to just walk, right? By running, yeah, you save a little bit of time, but with no rush. Then it's like, okay, cool. You're very logical.

But that's how life is. What else? You sound like you've never been a child. No, but listen to me. Guys, I knew... Let me tell you something. When I was opening the TV in the living room... As in opening it like you want to see what's inside? Yeah, when I was unscrewing the whole thing. Logically, I knew everything. I unscrewed the TV too, but I had logic for it. Okay. I wanted to see how the TV worked. Oh, same with me. And as a result, I was able to fix things at home. I was a guy... Like, dude...

Maybe by like eight, I was a handyman at home. And my dad understood I couldn't have been the handyman unless I broke my toy. But I'll tell you what, when things were wrong and I fixed it without him paying a cent, boy, was he glad I broke that toy. Okay. You see? So that's the intermediate. Now, here's the thing. Now, that's funny. It comes back around to like, is there a reward on the other side? There's always a reward. I'm told I was a highly inquisitive child.

I guess I still am, even as an adult, right? And the thing with questions is you're just gathering data points. That's all you do. You're gathering data points and you're going to later use those data points that you've collected and go, oh, okay. Well, when I asked Auntie Anneli this, she told me this and that. So maybe I should go this way. There's a lot of things I never got to experience and still have no inkling. I don't even want to experience them. But I've learned major lessons from other people and their experience of those things.

So when you now withhold those answers and you just... Because I said so. You nipple in the butt by saying, yes, because I said so. You are starving Isaac of the data points he needs in order for him to be able to come up with the decision, which will then obviously make sense to him. Yeah, the wrong or the right. All right. Well, if you need, you know, outside models, role models, you let us know. No, no, I'm covered. You must let us know. I mean... But Mina, I'm...

I'm probably going to say even at this age, I will bring a little bit of bad influence, but always respectful. One thing my teachers always said, Trevor's very respectful. But he's very troublesome. He's very disruptive in class, but very respectful and oftentimes does not apply himself, but very respectful. There was no disrespect in what I was doing.

Do you know what I mean? No, no. Yes, ma'am. No, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. I was the one who put the firecracker in the toilet, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. That is correct, ma'am. Why, Trevor? Why?

Because we wanted to see what happens. The thing about a child being inquisitive as well is that it could be on the bad side of things. Yes, that's what I see a worry as well. Because people always treat like being inquisitive like, oh, such a wonderful thing. It's a great trait. He's so inquisitive. But if he's inquisitive as to what's going to happen if at age nine he takes the car. Yes. Right? That's not a good thing. I did that. I thought about that. About what? Taking the car. Why didn't you do it?

So our driveway was like a bit of an incline. So when I was leaving, I would have been fine. But then when I was driving back, the car obviously would have had like hummed a little bit. Then I thought, what if my dad thinks the car is getting stolen and then he shoots me? Yeah.

Then I was like, I would rather not take this car. The sentence would end like that. Me too. I didn't think the sentence would end like that. Yeah. I thought grounded, like grounded or get a... No, I thought, I thought, you know, what's the worst thing that could happen? He could think the car is getting stolen and shoot me.

Okay, but now we mustn't stick on this one because everybody's got a worry. Now we're going to spend the next hour discussing only my worries. But our worries are all the same. We solve your worries and not all worries. Okay, so, okay, then let's... But wait, she raised a very good point. We just glossed over it. It actually is the answer. What? She spoke about his self-confidence, right? And belief in himself. Okay. That actually is the answer to everything. Because if...

I don't think it is, but finish what you said. Okay, it's the answer to most things. No, no, but keep going. If his self-confidence is strong enough, right? Peer pressure will never be an issue. And we know, for example, that Alak is very smart already. He's super smart. So he knows what right and wrong is. What usually sways people from wrong is the external influence.

if he's strong enough and believes in himself, he can say, hey, dude, I hear what you're saying, but that's not how ours race. That's not how we roll. And so already he's kind of insulated from the external influences of the world. Not to say he'll never like go wrong, but he's unlikely to go as wrong as other people who are just amoebas and they go with the flow. A lot of people end up in trouble. They're like, yo, dude, I don't even want to be here. I told you guys, let's not go there. Now you're sharing a cell. You see? So I hear what you're saying. One,

I'd like to throw into this. And one counter argument is if we live in a world where everyone completely believes in themselves, I think we have a little less social cohesion. We should never take for granted how powerful peer pressure is in society. So when you're on the road and you're

You see that you could drive in the emergency lane and just get ahead of everyone. Peer pressure is the only thing keeping you back. Yeah, you might be like, oh, the police. No, no, no. But beyond that, there's an element of knowing that every other road user is in some way, shape or form going to be against you. And you're like, I'm not going to do it. When you're standing in a line at an airport or anywhere else and you see that you could cut and you could get ahead. Peer pressure is the only thing like stopping you from doing. You're not going to get arrested. Do you get what I'm saying? I think there's a weird...

and we don't know what the knobs perfectly are. - But the world knows. - But the way you look- - It's interesting that you say that. - No, can I say- - We don't know what the balance is, but the world always fine tunes you. - So, okay, my argument is this, and this may sound a little anarchist, but it's not, but like, I don't believe we know, and I don't think there is a right, because I think every piece needs to exist. So like, on the one hand, you need like a renegade to be like a Steve Jobs, let's say, where he goes, "No, we're gonna do this." And people are like, "You can't do it." And he's like, "We're gonna do it." And then he does it, and then now everyone's like, "Oh yeah, this is how it should have been."

But then there's also some renegades who are like Jeffrey Dahmer. Jeffrey Dahmer didn't suffer from peer pressure, I'm assuming. I don't think he was like, what are my friends going to say? He did his thing. He did his thing. No, no, no. So here's the thing. So all I'm saying is I believe that there isn't one fixed way or not way. I think a system will always find entropy. It will always find a place where it exists for the best of what it is trying to do.

But I think you can create a child or you think you can try your best to create a child who does not care about what anyone else says. And I think those types of people are assholes in the world as well because they don't care about what anyone else says. And then there are some people who care too much about what everyone else says and then they are at the whims of the crowd.

So Joe Biden's got a line, right? Joe Biden? Joe Biden, the rapper. I was like, wow, this guy's about to quote Joe Biden. I was like, damn, I don't think I've ever heard anyone quote Joe Biden. This is a rap line also, long before he did podcasts. And he speaks about mama raised me proper, the streets just molded me.

The streets coded me, made me a better pedigree. Then he goes on to say things are complicated like Avril Lavigne said it'd be. But that's besides the point. Basically, when you go out into the world, the world will either affirm you or it will challenge you. Cool, right? So with your fortitude, you'll go there and then they'll be like, no, my friend, that's not how this works. And very quickly, if you're a smart person, you will then learn, oh, damn, I'm wrong about this.

However, if you are correct about your ways, the world will affirm you. And then you'll see, okay, this actually works. And that's how people end up rising to a certain point. So, okay, it's actually funny you say that because I think that's a perfect segue to my worry. I agree that the world will affirm you or challenge you, right? But I don't think that that is based in absolute truths.

So sometimes you will be affirmed or challenged based on the circumstance of the situation. True. Or what people can benefit from affirming your challenge. Exactly. Exactly. So now let's go to my worry. The reason I say I think the global slash liberal slash whatever experiment has failed is because there was a time when many politicians around the world started to believe, and I'm sure there was another time when this happened with trading in general, but they said, you know what? We could be connecting the world in interesting and different ways.

you could make something in China or you could make it in any country where it's developing really

And that means the country where they're selling it to, they can focus on different types of labor. They can be more specialized. They can work in offices. They can do this. So they'll actually be selling a different product to the world. Their product might be a service. It might be something digital. And then the people who are using that, they might buy something else and they might, but we're all connected. It's going to be a chain of wonderful things. And we're all, and it's the circle of life. You know what I mean? It's like this beautiful world where money's flowing from one place to the next.

And now, and Cesar, you're the economics guy, so I'm sure you can speak to it deeper than I can. But like, I feel like what happened was, first and foremost, the money dammed up in a way that no one really predicted. So the money didn't move around the world. It didn't stay in Bangladesh and Vietnam and all these places where the workers are making it. It very quickly left those places and went into bank accounts in certain parts of the world, right? The people working even at these companies in those parts of the world

It doesn't matter how big these corporations are. But one of the things I find particularly interesting is how, like, we've accepted this as normal, and maybe we won't for a while, where companies can hire people to help them make profits. Once they've achieved that profit, they can fire all of those people. And hire people for the next. To help them make more profits, right? So this is the second part of it, why I think it's failing. I think we were never fully prepared for,

to communicate with everyone everywhere all the time without understanding the nuances and the complexities that come with everybody's understanding of the world. You know, in the same way that we're worried about like what we say to aliens,

When they arrive? Not even when they arrive. You've seen we've sent, we've sent like things to space. Okay, signals like. Yeah, yeah. We've sent capsules. Yeah, okay. And then they'll choose. They go, we've put some Mozart, some Beethoven. We've sent, but there's also like crazy shit we've sent. We've sent like a random like rock and roll song that could sound like a war anthem. I don't know.

Or maybe Mozart sounds like war to an alien. I don't know. Right? You really don't know. When you said we've sent crazy shit, the thing that came into my mind wasn't that. I was like, oh. No, but we've also sent like plants and seeds and we've tried to send what we think

encapsulates the human race is what we've done oh that is a very very risky thing exactly what does encapsulate the human race that's exactly my point and so maybe each country should send something even then and so now i'm saying social media as a whole that the whole connected idea of it forget like actual social media i just don't think we ever prepared for it we never prepared

for a message to cross borders and cultures in the way that it does. It may connect us in moments, but I think it's ripping us apart at the seams in more places than we ever thought. And so I think that's why I think the whole thing is falling apart. I think in South Africa, where we are right now, I think we're going to see only more xenophobia. We're going to see more people not wanting immigrants to come into the country. And in many people's defense, by the way, not just in South Africa, in the US, in Europe, et cetera,

If we use the binary, we can be very quick to say these people are hateful. It's very easy to do that. But the underlying issue is true in many places. But I think you've got a global view because you are a global person, right? We can scale this down and realize that it's always been like that. It's just that now we are aware that it's happening everywhere else as well. Let me take it back to South Africa. A person who was raised in the hood and a person who was raised in the rural areas

They are aliens to each other. Okay, so the hood versus the village, essentially. Versus the village. There we go. But then even in America, somebody was raised in the South and I'm a Southern male. Do you know what I'm saying? As opposed to somebody who was raised in New York, those people are also quite alien to each other. Okay, yes. Right? And that's, now that is a country. I just feel that because you've been everywhere in the world, it is a lot more heightened for you that you think that. No, no, no. But this is what I mean.

I mean that the experiment was, it felt like it was working for a moment. So here's the thing. I mean, I can't speak to the second part of your thought process because that's more sociology. But the first one, which is economics, that makes sense. And even if you look at any economic textbook, it really just, it dictates that things will be that way. Because capital by its very nature is monopolistic.

Right. There are four factors of production, we are told. We're told it's capital, labor, entrepreneurship, and then I suppose land. But really, when you think about it, there's only one factor of production. It's capital. Because it's capital, you can buy the other three. Right. That's why the effect has been that money has always pulled back to... To money. Yes.

Because once you've made the money, you realize, okay, I no longer need the labor now. I can build AI and that will substitute the need for labor. Okay, I no longer need entrepreneurship. I can go to India and hire a CEO. Okay, I no longer need...

For example, land. Yes. These are all the things. Capital will always supersede everything in a capitalistic society. That's why it's called capitalistic. Right. Don't call it laborlistic. Or landlistic. I want to live in a landlistic country. No, but, so I agree with you. And what I'm saying though is this was an experiment. Remember, we're always conducting an experiment. Like you said with your son, you're winging it. We're also winging it. I think this is something we should always acknowledge as people. And I think not enough politicians do and not enough leaders do

They make it seem like we know. So I've seen people who talk about socialism. They know. People talk about communism. They know. People talk about capitalism. They know. But I'm like, guys, you don't know. We're all winging it with as much information as we have. We're gathering data points, as you say. So there was no communism until there was. There was no socialism until there was. There was no capitalism until there was. What I'm saying is this experiment that we're conducting now, I worry about

that it's failing, but I worry that it's failing because the reason I worry about it failing is because of the ramifications on the other side.

But that's how revolutions come. This is my point. That's the reset. Everything has a reset. You see, this is my point. I don't like your tone when you say these things, Sizwe. You say very... It will happen. No, no, no. But he says it in a very... Your tone is positive. But the message you're giving is like, you're like, yes, well, that's a revolution. Because that's what happens. That's a reset. That's a matter of fact. And everyone's going to die. Yes, but your tone, you must deliver in like, well, that's a reset. You are worried that you're living on the cusp.

Yes completely He wants to miss the revolution We Not me You want to miss the revolution No You want to be here for it No I don't want to be here for it Trevor doesn't want to be Do you want to be here for revolution

I mean, I think in many parts we... You want to be here for the revolution. No, I don't want to be here for the revolution. Let me tell you something about revolution. It's disruptive. And nobody knows what comes out on the other side. You think I have power. A revolution completely disrupts power. You think, oh, but I'm of the people. Revolutions also squash the people. And the outcome of a revolution is not predictable, right? Wasn't COVID a revolution? Oh, it wasn't. But Trevor's right in that it's obviously, it depends what sort of person you are, right?

It's better to be living in very calm times and steady times. Yes. But you learn a lot if you're living on the cusp because that's where majority of change takes place. I mean, this is true. Yeah. If you look at us, we literally went from NLOG to digital. That alone will blow many people's minds. Yes. Crazy. The things that we've seen. We went from

Dat recorders To CDs To cassette tapes To VHS To see When I said that You know Maybe I think we've lived the revolutions I think you guys think I'm assuming like the violent ones You know No no no no no I just mean You mean the reset

Okay. So you're saying I'm talking about a reset and not a revolution. Yes. You're going to have to then give me the difference between those. A revolution, you'll know. Blood will be spilled. Not necessarily blood will be spilled, but you wouldn't be sitting here talking about COVID as a revolution. You'd know for a fact. Then give me an example of a revolution. The Arab Spring. Yes. Well, Arab Spring somewhat, but regimes change. Yes. Okay, violent then. Not necessarily. Not necessarily. They can be peaceful. Like in 1994, South Africa had a revolution, but a peaceful revolution.

More or less. More or less. No, okay. So this is what I mean. I'll just throw them out at you and maybe you'll understand the picture that I'm seeing. Let's say in America, right? It was interesting to see how even amongst themselves, the Trump mega crowd is experiencing like a fraying connection between the people. Yeah.

In a microcosm, you look at the Trump party. I don't call it the Republican party, it's the Trump party. You would think within that world, everyone would just be like, yeah, we know what we're doing. We're doing it, right? Look at the thing that happened with Elon Musk and the H1B1 visas.

Elon Musk is rolling with Donald Trump. They're like, hey, we know what we're doing. We're planning this new world order. Elon's like, hey, man, I have a new best friend. I paid $250 million for him. So I want to hang out with him all the time. Trump is like... Trump needs his mom to come to bed at 3 in the morning. Trump is like, you're a bit of a loser. I wanted your money. Go away. Because you can see Trump knows cool and not cool. Like you saw when Trump was sitting with Obama. Say what you want. But Trump was like, this guy's cool. You could see he was like, all those fancy things. He was trying to make him laugh.

Yeah. And he was making him laugh. Yeah. Trump was like, this guy's cool. I need this guy's approval. Exactly. Because Trump knows cool. Say what you want about him. Say what you want. Say what you want about him. So when I look at the Elon Musk thing, it's amazing to see how quickly what I'm talking about is affecting everyone. Because Elon Musk and his people go, all right, now we know what we're doing. Trump fans and supporters are like, actually, no. Like Steve Bannon goes, no, no, no. Hey.

I actually don't like this agenda. Why are we hiring these people from India and from these places to come and work on these companies? Elon's like, because we need them. Then Steve Bannon's like, no, we don't need them. We need them because we haven't created a world where Americans are the ones that are needed. Then the tech guys say, yes, but like Vivek Ramaswamy and Elon Musk, they say, yeah, but Americans are not trained enough and they're not smart enough. Then these guys are like, oh, you're saying Americans are stupid. Yeah.

Is that what you're saying? They're like, no. And then the other guy's like, yes, I am saying that. Then he's like, why don't we train Americans? Then he's like, no, because it's not supposed to work like that. And then even within that little confine, you see the thing falling apart. The promise...

hasn't been delivered, right? Because white Americans were told, stop your factory things. We got this. Don't worry. So what's going to happen is you're going to just move forward, right? And your company, you're going to wear a suit and tie and you're going to have a different job and you're going to get great money. Worked for a moment. Then companies, as you say, capital does what capital does. Companies were like, we could actually make more money with less.

And why are we paying American workers when we could be paying people from India or Bangladesh less? And even if they come into the country, we can force them to work a ton of hours because what are they going to say? No? And they'll be a lot more appreciative of the dollar. Exactly. Because they have a visa. Exactly. And now even within that tiny world, you see the experiment failing. And now there Steve Bannon comes and says,

Elon Musk is a white South African who is racist and born from apartheid. We cannot allow him into the White House. Now, people watching this are like, wait, Steve Bannon is saying this guy's racist. No one knows what to do with it. No one knows what to do with it. No one knows. But that's just one example. Then you look at South Africa and how South Africans are now going like, actually, actually, no, no, no. We're not trying to help Africa. No, no, we're just trying to do our own thing. Then you look at Europe. Europe's like, no, no, no, no, no. Close, close here. Germany, they're like, hey man, this whole immigrant thing, actually, no, no, no, no, no, we're not, we're not.

Then you look at like banking, you look at hiring, look at AI itself. We are on a fast track to people turning around and saying, wait a minute, if AI is doing every job, who's doing a job? And if nobody's doing a job, who's buying things? And if nobody's buying things, what are we doing? This is why it's so interesting because all of it actually just boils down to economics and living conditions. Everything you've just highlighted,

It's not a problem if people are comfortable. Yeah, completely. If we're all comfortable, I love AI. Because who wants to work? Yes. Let AI work. If we're all comfortable and you're telling me you want to bring in some Indian guy, hey, by all means, buddy, do the thing there. I'll suggest you my time. Yeah, that's true. The problem is now when we're starving, they'll be like, hey, man, these foreigners are taking our jobs. That's the problem. That is the problem. Whereas if we're comfortable, we'll be like, hey, buddy, hey, I've got something here for you. You want to do this? Because I don't want to do it.

That's essentially the issue. And that's what I'm saying has failed. I'm saying the thing that was sold to people was prosperity for all.

That has not happened, whether it's South Africa, whether it's the United States, whether it's parts of Europe. And it can never happen. Wait, you think it can't happen? Never. Prosperity for all. It can. No, it cannot. No, but it can. Let me tell you why it can't happen. Even when we are, like you're saying, the Trump party, even when we're all for one thing and we have one ideal, we're still going to disagree within that. But not fundamentally.

I think so. No, they argue. People are now disagreeing. I hear you. Look at South Africa. Look at the ANC. Yes. Where we were all about one thing. Even when we get along, guys, even in a group of friends, you know that WhatsApp group where there was nine of you and the next thing in that nine, six of you slipped to the side. Do you know what I'm saying? That is human nature. So, Anneli's right. There will always be disagreements. What I'm saying is when things are okay, the disagreements are inconsequential. Yes. Exactly. So...

there can never be prosperity for all. Because in order for people to prosper, there needs to be productivity. And the productivity needs to come from somewhere. Now, what happens is you do get certain instances where there are more resources than there are those that defeat the resources. What it means is

The model seems like it's working for a lot longer, but it's really not. The model is always deteriorating. That's just the nature of the model. You could be living in the Garden of Eden, but the more you procreate, the more you're going to run out of food in that garden. Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now? after this. This is where I disagree.

I think a lot of the scarcity that we think is real in the world isn't real. That's the first thing. And I think a lot of it is created by institutions and companies that need you to consume. So for instance, a simple example is your phone, right?

Everyone has the new iPhone until Apple releases the next iPhone. It is literally even the day before launch, you have the latest iPhone. And then one day later, you now have an old iPhone, right? So you're right. The issue is not scarcity. It's about the distribution of resources. That's what the problem is. So what I'm saying is I agree completely. I'm saying we are and we have been. And look, there may not be a perfect world for this.

But I think there's also a lot of artificial scarcity and a lot of artificial distribution that has now... And it's at an all-time high. I agree with you. The perfect example is water. Guys, I don't understand how we live in a world where water is owned by companies and we are all going to have to buy water from corporations. Guys, everywhere in the world... I read that about LA. There are a couple owned over water in LA. It's a farming...

Farming family, they own like water. You're like, how do you own water? Who did you buy it from? But that's my point. Who owned it before you? But that's my point. Because the water goes under my house as well. How come I can't stop the water? Do you see what I'm saying? So now, Cesar, I get what you're saying economically. But I'm saying that's why all of these things, I worry that we are going to hit too many at the same time. Okay. And that thing is going to be, it will be, I don't know if it will be a revolution or

But I think we are on track, unless there's some sort of correction somewhere. We are only on track for a mass ending correction type thing, revolution, whatever you want to call it. I cannot see another way. Well, luckily, all of this has been thought of. Even the thing you just mentioned now about water going under your house. Yes. For example, the Romans, because they came out with land ownership, they kind of

They basically had a definition of what land ownership is, right? It'll be, I guess, the square meters or whatever the measurements will be. And then it'll be everything on and above the ground belongs to you. Everything below the ground that belongs to the state. Okay. That's, for example, what our mining laws are based on here in South Africa, right? So if the water is flowing on top of your ground, that's your water.

But the underground water is not yours. Yes, but the problem is the state. Now, is it fair? It's obviously not fair, but I hear you. Yes, but and what is a state? A state is a collection of people. It's a fiction that we've all agreed to. So now the problem is when the state sell it to private people, where do we end up? In revolution. So by the way, Cicero is not helping me at all because he's affirming everything I'm saying. Oh.

Imagine if we were doing that with... But you know what he's saying? He's saying it was supposed to happen that way. But you guys also did that with me, that it's supposed to happen that way. No, no, no. It's like Nas' second album, it was written. Yes. Thank you, Joe Biden. But here's what... Remember what my original statement was. Yes. I'm worried that the experiment is failing. Because remember, what we're also doing as humans is we're constantly trying...

to undermine the natural order of things. We do it with our health, right? So back in the day, your shoulder, you would be gone. Now you may not be gone. Yeah. Right? And I think this is something that's important to understand is that one of the main things that makes humans humans is that we've challenged the very fundamental order and nature of life and the world. And we fight it under progression. Yeah, but we fight it. So we go, actually, maybe you shouldn't die of an infection.

And then you go, actually- Maybe you shouldn't die at all. Remember the guy you interviewed? Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe you shouldn't die at all. Right. So the reason I say I'm sad and I'm worried that the experiment is failing is because it was an experiment. People thought that if you put goods and services or if you say that things are going to be manufactured in poor countries, it's going to bring them up.

And then that'll free up the developed countries to do different types of jobs and they'll bring them up and then they will sell their ideas and it'll bring them up and they'll, this beautiful loop, this beautiful loop, this beautiful loop. And we will all raise, what is that? Rising tides raise all boats. That's what we thought. What we didn't know was

some people have boats that have water pumps and they're taking a lot more water and the tides are not rising everything so now that's what I was saying is my worry when my good friend Cizwe was kind enough to say you see this was a good episode and I like the fact that there's no solution we just threw a pump out there we're like bye here's your worries niggas bye this guy that's it that's on you

I actually see a very hopeful future for your story with your son. Of course. That's what I mean. So I go like, oh, you just have a problem or a worry about a potential problem, but I feel like there's many solves for the thing. Is that why you're leaving the house? That's funny.

So that's as a friend. And then my friend has said to me, no, no, don't worry. All your worries are correct. And it's going to end. That's what he just did to me. You must never be a doctor, by the way, Cesar. Actually, he needs to be a doctor. No, no. He would be the person who just walks in and says to you, you're out. Statistically speaking, you're going to die anyway. So, I mean, I don't even know why you want to do the surgery.

Save your money, spend time with your family. You see? That's what he would be saying to you. No, you should not be a doctor. You're the shortest episodes of House ever. Just walk in. So, okay. Let's do C-Zoers. So, your concern is you worry that? So, generally speaking, as you correctly point out, the world is continually deteriorating. Yeah.

And I feel like... Wait, wait, wait. I'm not saying continually. Let me be on record of saying that. I think we're in like cycles. And I'm saying now... No, we are in cycles. But obviously in the cycle, it's continuing to deteriorate. We haven't hit drop bottom yet. It's only going to stop deteriorating. We're going to hit drop bottom. Then we're going to need to rebuild. Okay, cool. Now, I worry that in the short term, because life is relatively short, right?

To raise a kid in that environment is going to be very tumultuous. And the tools that personally I had to navigate the world, I see those tools becoming more and more useless every day. Can you give us an example of those tools? I mean, just general things like, for example, bullying. A very simple example. There used to be a safe haven for bullying.

These days, there isn't really. Sorry, sorry. I feel like I'm mishearing you. Safe haven for people being bullied? From being bullied, yes. Oh, okay. I thought you were saying there was a safe haven for bullying. That's funny. No, really. You're also like a weird thinker. You could be the kind of person who says that. Protect all bullies? Yeah, you were like, back in my day, bullies could find a place. Dude, you're the kind of person who could say that.

Look, bullies do build character. Okay. But I don't think we need this. Okay, sorry. So you're saying... So you could get bullied. What would the safe haven? So you could get bullied and then at 2.30, the bell would ring. You'd be like, shoo!

That's so great. Mom, I'm going home. Yeah, it ends. Now it follows you home. Then you'd be in your mom's car and then be like, Mom, you never believe it, eh? These guys are going to beat me up. And then you pitched up right in time. And now the guys are beating you up in your mom's car. And your mom's like, Cesar, why are you in your screen? And they're pummeling you. You know what I mean? So that's just one simple example. Okay, got it. And again, it speaks to that thing of yours, the interconnectedness, because we never... Yeah, we didn't prepare for all of this. 100%. 100%. And when you're a kid...

You really don't have the broadened vision to know it's actually what I can do. Just turn off my phone. Yeah. I think as adults, we also don't necessarily have that. It took me, I'm trying to think of when this changed, maybe somewhere pandemic-ish somewhere. It took me a long time to realize if I don't know it, if I don't even acknowledge it, it's not even happening. I know it sounds like a weird thing. People are like, no, but people are saying things about me online. And I'm like, yeah, it's not really happening.

Unless... Don't you feel like our youth kind of primed us for this, though? In what way? Specifically, like our youth in showbiz. Dude, we came out in a time where I guess the review would have been, hey, the ratings, the show sucks, whatever. Okay, okay. That's why when I see...

the kids that grew up now in the social media age. Yeah. Right? And I see how seriously they take social media. And how they crumble when someone does say something. I can understand it because for them, they were made by social media. If you're made by social media, you feel like you can be destroyed by social media. Okay. To channel my very wise younger brother, he would argue that...

that we and the youngest of our generation is experiencing that. He says they're not. He's like you guys, like Bane. He's almost like, ah, you merely adopted social media. I was forged in social media. Like he goes, no, no, no, no. You and your youngest think that. He says our generation. We're so robust because we were built by that. He's like, we don't, we actually don't care. He says, we don't really care about the thing. And we don't.

He even showed me like aesthetically. I disagree with him. No, but I'm saying he showed me like aesthetically. Go look at like Gen Z and lower. Look at their Instagram, their TikTok. It's not aesthetic like millennials and above. It's not, they're not trying to show you a perfect picture of avocado toast. No, they just want to show you a vibe. They might even show you the crumbs. That's their picture. And his argument is,

that we think of it as being something that is infinitely harder to tackle. But he's like, it is only the reality that they have, right? So he goes, I think your situation was worse.

He's like, because we entered striving for perfection because we didn't know how this thing works. No, but not even like he argues, he goes, yeah, you get, we get bullied online, but he's like, but you guys got bullied like physically. And there wasn't really stuff you guys could do about it when it was happening physically. And then he goes, I can make friends online. I can look at a video on TikTok about how to be a boxer. But he argues that their reality is,

is different to ours, but it comes with its own pros and cons and they're fine with it. Yeah, I think he's correct. In fact, in that analogy, I would think I'm somebody like Tony Hawk. I'm like the geriatric in a skate park. Oh, yeah. That's how you are on social media. Yeah. Because I'm with the kids throwing the mud. Heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy. Because you were literally throwing the mud on the playground. Yeah.

Okay. I think your brother's right, but I think there's very few of them that are like that. The rest of them. And if you had to look at the stats around, you know, mental wellness and anxiety and all of that, a lot of them are not thinking like that. So for me, your brother is the hippie. One thing I will throw into that. Yeah, we'll wrap. We'll wrap. One thing. I'm reading late. This nigga's even calling me. All right. So one thing I will say to that is I think it's the same.

Guys, one bully at my school terrorized three standards, like three grades. One bully. Do you understand what reach that is? Yeah. One, guys. One bully would come to the tuck shop, the cafeteria for those in America, and would take anything and everything and do whatever they... So...

I understand what you're saying, but I go, I feel like we were also that generation. I watched people get terrorized by one bully and a whole school could have done something and didn't do anything. And we're all just like, that's them. You know, you're just like, pray to God they don't come your way. And so what I'm arguing is I don't necessarily think that they are softer or like, I just think that because it's so foreign to us,

We see it as being more that way, but I don't necessarily think it's... It's the same problems, just a different iteration. Yes. But that's how generations are. Yes, that's what I think. And then I actually think the mental health thing, I think it is more important to look at our communities differently

like our real communities versus our social ones. I think we take for granted, forget the bully, forget the social media, forget all of that. We take for granted what a physical touch was. Yes, I got bullied, but at least my bully touched me. Okay. Do you know what I'm saying? At least I felt my bully's skin. We'll continue this. Go catch your flights. Bye-bye. Get out of here. Thank you. I love you guys. We love you so much. Go catch your flights. Don't get bullied.

Whatever. Or if you do, make sure they touch you. The thing around touching is so that I can assess your strength. Because when you are bullying me and you touch me, I can assess, okay, maybe I can fight you one day. But digitally, I don't know what your strength is. Yeah, that is one thing I think is worse. That's the only reason I'll agree with you with the bully touching you. Okay, I'll throw you another one that you might agree with. And I mean this genuinely. Every kid who bullied me

Made you a better person? No, saw me as a human being. And I saw them as a human being because they didn't perpetually bully me. And they were not perpetually bullies. They were kids who played sports, who ate food, who caught the bus, who, and then they were the same way. Like your job doesn't define you. Hopefully in life, they were like, no, I work as a bully.

But I'm also still a human being. They laughed. I remember walking into school and the bully would be there and be like, Trevor, you. And I'd be like, ah, bruh, come on. Again? Yeah. And then he'd be like, okay, but tomorrow. That for me, I don't see anyone doing online. Because...

I know this sounds like a crazy thing to say, but even though that bully was a bully, because we shared the same space, because we breathed the same air, because we looked into each other's real eyes, I knew who that bully was. I knew their name. I knew where they lived. They were a human being. But that's because with digital, everything is just fleeting and passing. Yeah, and fake. Yeah, but I'll raise you that people that I have like squared up with on digital, there are people that have become my friends because every day we're going to go over to each other. Really? Yes, and then after a while you're like, you know what happened?

have bad because you must remember something somebody who's wrong can't be wrong all the time and somebody who's right can't be right all the time oh I like that so even with people that I've disagreed with you know like aggressively on eggs sooner or later because you still get retweeted by other people I'm like you know I usually speak nonsense but today I can agree with what you're saying right so we're agreeing with each other it's just that with digital there's this thing of I've said it it's done my phone is off I'm gone right

But now with your bully, they were coming back to you every day. There was a chance of you seeing them again and again and again. So back to what you were saying about community.

Think of the first days on Twitter. That was a community. Yeah, it was. And I think right now it's just that you're dealing with, you wouldn't allow anyone to just touch you like that, even in your physical sense when you were a child, because you're like, I don't know you. Yeah. I have a blue man. Who are you? Who are you? Right. And I think that what you're going back to is that wherever you are, be it at work, within your family, whatever, just find your sense of community.

It's funny, you know, you say, yeah, there's something you stumbled on, I feel like, in one part that's really special. And that is, we've lost that connection.

Even fighting, at least you are connecting with another person. I know it sounds crazy, but even having a back and forth, at some point, you will see each other as people. You know, when Cesar almost quoted President Joe Biden, let me quote President Obama at his first inauguration where he said, I will listen to you, especially when we disagree. Huh. Huh.

You must listen to people that you disagree with. And that's the problem with, I would say, the Trump party is that there's just a notion that I don't have to listen to you because I disagree with you. But what if in the two minutes of me talking, you agree with 30 seconds of what I'm saying? Now you're doing yourself an injustice of just totally disregarding me because I'm not a Trump party. Yeah, but I think both ways, actually. And I think that's, I've always said America's biggest struggle for me in its politics is that it is binary.

So Americans think and have been taught that it is this or that. But now I realized, and I realized every time I come home to South Africa, I'm like, wow, we have such a complex, the perfect example is the, I'm an ANC bitch. The woman on the fly, safe, air flight,

This is a black woman who gets drunk on a flight, starts berating the flight attendants, throws things at other passengers. And now passengers, black and white alike, team up against her to restrain her. But even then, the commentary of it, the...

pro-ANC people there against her and then black people at large are against her and white people. And I was like, oh yeah, I don't really see many of those types of things happen in America. I saw a white guy coming up for her and he wrote a thread about what could have gone wrong and we must understand. I was just like, okay, we have reached Milele. But what exactly? So what I mean is like when you are told

that there is one of two solutions. You will then think that there's one or two solutions. And so you will be forced to pick between one of two solutions. And you'll believe that if I pick one, I can't like certain elements of the other one. Yes, because you've been told. Whereas when you come from a place where they go, no, no, no, no, no. As you said earlier with the ANC, even the ANC was multiple coalitions in one thing, right? And that's what made it work because you know what you find then? You find accountability.

And me constantly having to behave in a way that proves that my theory is the one that we should go with, right? Now, when we're all thinking the same, right? When we're all thinking the same, isn't that a dictatorship? Yeah. No, this is not. Actually, you know what's funny? You actually made me worry less. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. No, really, because I think to myself, even in the moment, this is going to sound like a crazy thing, even for me to say to myself, but like,

The one upside of revolutions is that they bring people together. Or like one of the upsides, maybe depending on where the revolution is going. But it is like, you know, the people come together. Like, you know, you think of like the Berlin Wall coming down. You think of like the Soviet Union collapsing. You think of Cuba. You think, yeah, it's like it brings people together. And maybe that's what we're living in.

Maybe life is a constant yo-yo of humans being pulled apart and then being pulled back together. And maybe we create things that pull us apart. Walls at our houses, you know, tinted windows in our cars, things that isolate us. And then something comes along, everything from an earthquake to a fire. And then you need that person. And then all of a sudden, yeah, all of a sudden we're now back together and it's,

It's interesting to think of like us always being forced to come back together whether we like it or not. Yeah, because... Like literally whether we like it or not. Whether you like it or not. Humans are going to get forced to be... We're going to be back here together. Yeah. And we don't know what it'll be. Yeah. Huh. I like that.

See, once these were left, my worries left as well. No, but you need the grim. The grinch. The funny thing is he's not even grinchy. If he was a grinch, it would be better. He's an AI. It's his delivery of it. You know like when you watch those movies where like the robot just says, like straight up, they just go like, humankind needs to be eliminated. Then you're like, excuse me?

It appears to me that being human is suboptimal. Yeah, but I'm asking you, what's a better way to do my garden? The best way is to not have a garden. It's gonna die anyway. It's gonna die anyway. The same way you will die. If I end you, then you do not have to worry about the garden. Yo, yo, yo, siswe. Siswe, I'm looking for a solution. Yes, and I've presented the ultimate solution to you. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Solution is death. Yes, this is why you're a mom and he isn't. As a parent, you just have to be the eternal optimist.

And that's true. But then it's so difficult to be the eternal optimist, but then finding hard places to be hard inside of that because you have to be hard at times because discipline has to happen. Damn. You know? So you know what it is? It's a yo-yo. Yeah. We separate, but we're going to come together because somebody has to drive you to school. I love that. Thank you, Anizi. Thanks for joining me. And thank you, Ciswe, in your absence.

What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?