#695 - Codie Sanchez - The Secret Mindset Hacks To Become Unstoppable
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Hello everybody, welcome back to the show. My gust yesterday is cody sanchez. SHE is an investor, venture capitalist and A C E O. Being a contrarian is an a Loring idea, having a unique insight into the world, a different viewpoint that helps you grow and make money in become successful.

But how do you actually come up with original ideas and avoid always following the crowd? Expect to learn code's framework for non conformity, how anger can be a useful tool. What we can learn from Warren buffett about not optimizing too much while pushing through bodow is a superpower has speaking the truth even when IT hurts can be critically important. Code's best advice from the billionaire that she's met and much more. But now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome code sanchez.

What's a contrarian to you?

I think I want to see a quote for this one, which is Christopher, her hitchens. And his quote was, a contrarian is not one who always disagrees, but one who questions everything. And so my idea is in the world that we have right now, it's probably pretty smart to question assumptions continuously. And the humans who do that are the ones that win over time. Uh, I don't think the goal is to just be ordinary or to counter culture, but to actually use your brain to come up with a formulation of thoughts that is unique to you.

Is that not antithetical? To move in and quickly, if you've got a question, everything super effortful. That means you can't make decisions quite as fast interest.

You say that we are talking about a mutual friend of our bill perkins and bill told me, uh, is two superpowers that have had to every single dollar he's met and he goes, uh, IT is that i'm willing to take with risk and I move faster than everybody else. So by the time we've even pondered an idea i've already done IT, made five mistakes and learned five lessons.

And every time I meet with bill, I realized that's exactly right, and that's why he's one of the most successful people that i've ever met. And yet, I think if you don't question things and you don't have a brilliant mind like he seems too, you're just gonna on the wrong road path. And if you don't actually know the goal that you won a hit, if you don't actually know where you're going, most people move forward towards things that they actually don't want in life. And I ve done many, many times. And so in my mind, if you don't question up front, then you might not actually like the answer.

You get to a way to find IT. yeah. The intentionality point, I think is so important. And IT comes up in dating. IT comes up in business.

IT comes up in where we're gonna ve what sort of life story gonna have? How much success do you want? Wow, that's a fucking big one. So this really cool quote that I saw from a nasi tab, the world is split between those who don't know how to start making money and those who don't know when to stop.

Yeah that .

yeah .

I think he's he's right. But think, god, there awesome humans that don't stop. Like sometimes I think about you couldn't pay me enough money to switch places with elon mask.

There's enough money out there. I am so glad he exists as a human in the world because we get to benefit from the creations that he makes. But I don't think he looks very happy. And sometimes the person that I actually, you know, lust after from an exchange of life perspective is the person who owns a couple of cash fine businesses, happily married a couple of kids in good shape, has tons of free time and is really close to their community.

And uh, it's not the person who has built multiple billions dollars because the end of the day, what going to do with that? And so unfortunately, i'm wired as one of those freak of humans that loves the game, does not know when to stop and finds everything else pales by nature. But I do think he's he's right.

don't you yeah I the idea of one is enough enough is such an interesting question. And you've heard the parable of the mexican Fishermen, a good yeah.

So if the people that don't know this out of very interesting parable, that shows there is a quicker shot cut to the life that you want by reducing down complexity, not over cooking, how much you achieve, and then just going to simplicity in the first place, right, rather than having a build in elaborate life, to then eventually be able to afford a simple one like the elaborate life is kind of unnecessary once, especially once you cross a certain threshold. Ld of of income, wealth. Another cool quote about contrary ism.

A contrarian isn't one who always objects. That's a conformist of a different sort. A contrarian reasons independently from the ground up and resists pressure .

to conform.

IT was good. Yeah, that's of all. I love the fact that when we're thinking about pushing back against conformity, like the average american is obese, divorce with less the monk in the bank, right? Taking the Normal route might feel safe in the moment, but it's actually a really undesired thing to do. You can see the the outcomes you're going to get that is going to be yeah I mean.

I was reading statistics the other week about the if there's one out of ten um americans, they get to edge sixty five by that point. Only one of them will be independently wealthy uh and by the time they die, uh only one of them will be independently wealthy. We will have a think it's two people will have actually died by the time they go to retire so they won't even have made IT there.

Um the other two will actually be on government welfare or uh someone else's dime, make their family acta. And so what we have done systematically is not working if only ten percent of the population actually dies with excess cash um because federal are expensive. And so I think that was interesting.

What I really respected about naval in many different ways but I remember when he was first building, Angela st. Um I interacted with him a few times on twitter or by no means friends. But we interacted a few times after IT had done you bit valued out a few billion dollars and and I was bothering him in his team.

I like, I buy businesses all day long. There's nothing like Angela st. For people who actually buy companies and want to own total major majority shares as opposed to just small segments of companies like VC.

You guys have all the capability just build IT. And I remember kind of getting through to his I don't know, he was a CEO or CEO at the time. And then the valders came in, was like, IT is not what we do. We do and we are the best in the world at survey venture capital style businesses and small minority shares. And he's like, if we wanted to be everything to everybody, we would have never hit our first billion and I was like, sir, you know I total I get this point um but to stand up when you have that much capacity and capital and see so many shiny objects everywhere and continue to say no, the ones that don't serve you as a real superpower.

I don't forget that that is another type of non conform, right? That is another type of contrary ism, do not say yes to everything and it's i've been thinking about this so much, the tools that you need when you begin to pursuit, when you begin a journey, uh, sometimes even the opposite ones that you need do you begin to develop. So let's say that it's growing a business in the beginning.

You need to be very detail oriented. You need to be across everything. You need to be completely obsessive about all of the stuff that's going on. And then after a while, you actually need to be able to learn to delegate. And the skill which made you effective in the beginning and you have proof is good and you get doping from doing and you habituated to continue to do, it's exactly the one that's gone to hold you back if you can't let go later on.

If we were to talk about status and and the things that come to you explore in the beginning, try lots of different things, make as many connections as you can, finally build up some sort of reputation, and then if the reputation rises and rises and rises, you actually need to no longer say yes to everything. You need to say no to almost everything, right? So again, the skill that you develop in the beginning is often not the thing that is useful at the end. And you've you're so inlcuded into this rythm of doing IT. I'm trying to cast off this habit of me doing that thing very difficile.

Oh yeah. Especially if you think about dollar amounts. So when you first make your first hundred thousand dollars, there's a skill set that I think is quite Normalized if you want to make hundred thousand dollars, which is you need to learn as much as possible in order to increase your earnings, predominantly working for somebody else is the fastest way to get to your first hundred.

Kh, and that same school set to get from one hundred k to a million is relatively similar. So you can get to a million dollars pretty much using that same skill set. But in order for you to become an employ that has a high level of learning and a high level of earnings, that is worth ten million dollars, actually quite hard.

The difference between a million and ten million is difficult. And to go from ten to one hundred million is category ally different. And to go from one hundred million to a billion, if you just look at the math between the two, uh, there is no possible way for you to do IT as employee like IT hasn't been done. There is not a billionaire. There was an employee of somebody else's company and so the the math just doesn't lie.

And so because of that, I think it's really interesting to determine what is what is IT that you actually want, who has achieved IT before? What are the characters tics that are similar uh, in those subset of humans that have done IT? And then can you actually find a road map or ripple or ryan between all of those humans to get to the next level? And it's a it's a superpower to be able to see through the matrix like that to figure out the difference between one and .

ten and one hundred and a billion. Yeah what's your how do you ensure the remaining intentional? Like what's your framework for non conform?

Couple different things. The first thing that this is a friend of mine, alex and I um he's on the board of his hedge fund. He's one of the smartest man I know and he runs a multibillion doar hedged fun portfolio.

And I remember you know we focus on not on this idea of how do we think differently than other people because if you invest just like everybody else as an investor, on average, you lose money over time to inflation. That is just the truth. Most humans without a financial advisor in the market actually lose money over time in the stock market.

And what people say instead is now the stock market returns ten percent a year on average. Yes, the stock market as an entity that is not you individually, you individually lose money over type in the stock market, just wild. And so when I started thinking about IT as a numbers game with him, I realized the fun of the nonconformity is essentially this IT is you have to continue to question the thoughts that you have inherently.

You have to uh be. Off from everybody else slightly and you have to figure how to be right. Those two things are really, really hard to be consistently have a different perspective and be right on those perspectives. And that's only way you can actually make money long term in the stock market or really in just about anything where you want to be worth over one hundred million dollars. You can definitely be in consensus and make a million, two million, ten million, maybe even in twenty five or fifty.

It's interesting to think about the the fact that you can't signal off what everybody else is doing if you want to get outside results, right? Ultimately, if you do end up signings off everyone else, you're going to end up with the results that are at least comparable with what they are doing. And I suppose that this kind of, at least in part, relates to you are the average of the five people that you spend the most time.

I actually think that there's a Better rule, which is you are the average of the five podcasts you listen to the most. My ego knows no bounds. You but the outsides influences of the people that are around, ultimately, you're still going to inhabit a encounter the same problem unless you and everybody else, the friends with this on this in same growth trajectory.

So all right, so what's gonna happen? You you somehow, when you are at this stage of your personal growth, family growth, wealth growth journey, going to find four other people, all of whom are going to have the exact same trajectory that you do. And I think this is why this definitely degree of loneliness that i've seen to a lot of people who achieve rapid success because its very hard to find some people to come with you on that journey because you your growth is so rapidly accelerating.

Like who what's the chance that you find to somebody else that able to come along with you? Or maybe the person you go, what is moving quicker than you are. So I think what seems to happen as people kind of move through bubbles of friends, so they're going on that journey OK. I'm in this new bracket and then that kind of falls behind and i'm in the new bracket and then that kind of falls behind. At least I see that through alex as A A good example.

Yeah, I know I think that's exactly right. I mean, the sad thing is an U I alex have talked about this before, I think and he might have even in the one that said that which was other people want you to be just slightly less successful than they are on average and um and I think that is a gross journalizing in that not everybody y's like that, but a preponderance of humans because we are scarcity mindset is how we were wired um you know from learning how to survive on the plains.

Uh, we know that if there is a bunch of other people around us historically, there weren't enough resources to go around. You know, we had to actually be protective of the things that we made now in today's world in which innovation continues to allow us to achieve more and more. And there's actually IT doesn't have to be a zero some game. I don't think we have caught up here with what we know out here in the innovation sphere.

That's interesting. So if you say if you're the modest person in the room, you're in the wrong room. But what is also doing that sort of a rule is protecting you from being the person that's going to receive the ire and the jealousy and the backbiting from the other people. So endearing to be the poorest person in the room of the most stupid in the room, or at least accomplish person in the room, ensures that you're going to receive less and less than less envy. Or or, or that's .

actually really true. I mean, we were singing about the other day and I was trying to imagine a person who is really, really successful monetarily if we want to say who um actively trolls people and uh in this negative to others. And I can think of a few right you can think of like elon musk does some trolling on the internet, the paul brothers do.

But why do they do that? They do that because it's actually a direct revenue line to a thing that they care about. We want to have this attention arbitrage de.

So because of that, we control. But for the average successful person, I have never met a successful human that doesn't have a monetary incentive to troll the tools. They just don't exist. Like if you want to figure out if somebody is going to be successful or not, I think you should go and look at their twitter replies and comments.

And if they have a bunch of negative ones, you go not hire in them and also not a vesting in them because that of human, all they can do is they can take rocks and they can throw them because they don't realize they should build with them. And so it's is one of the biggest signals. And our companies actually, we have a social media screen.

So for every single higher that we have across our companies, we see do you have a negative perspective on reality? And do you play the victim frequently? And if you are either of those two things, you're just not part of our ecosystem. We do not believe that humans like you will be successful with an attitude like that.

Wow, okay, you've got a lesson. The controversy and conformity conundrum there is a spectrum where controversy and conformities sit on two ends of the line, more conformity equals less controversial. And the yet most of the wind's in life land on the edge of controversy. Choose your controversy wisely, but choose that.

yeah. Well, I think you can play this utmost easily on social media, right? Is just very easy to tell, uh, once you have an eyes towards frameworks, is this tweet going to do well? Is this tweet not going to do well depending on, is that something that is slightly off from the norm? And my Angels said, you know, people aren't to remember what you've said, but they will remember the way you made them feel.

And that was this touchy feeling thing that he said that I never really associated with until I saw twitter. And I said, that is exactly right. The second that you can make somebody feel something on one way or the other, they're going to react to IT.

Often we humans react really aggressively without thinking about IT at all. In fact, I ve found myself doing that. now.

I I sort of have trained myself, not. But when I see something on the internet, you know, there's like that famous tom Hardy little meme. Where is like that click bate? Have you ever see that? I know that is that bit? yes. And now we can tell why. Because if it's slightly off from the norm, IT is going to attract our attention because just like if there was where's waldo and red White stripes in a sea of people in Green, you're going to note this thing that looks slightly differently.

And I was talking to a real me yesterday of a bunch of uh builders and some of our our companies and um they were asking me how do how do you build a personal brand and how do you tweet no, what's going to work when we are the other and I don't know if I ever told the story, but I feel like your audience might appreciate that or think this is terrible. But if I remember, right, we have a newsletter, right? So in that newsletter, I felt like our subject lines were getting really stale.

I didn't like a so I told the team I got to a thousand dollars in no matter what you come up with on this news that i'm going to beat your subject a line and my team was like, yeah, sure there's like three of us and you're not really that involved in so got my great. So it's about landscape and or tree treatment or something. It's about tree trim.

Yeah, just so sexy, right? And so it's it's about making money with tree training. And their titles were like, this guy made x doing why this guy trim trees and had X, Y, Z.

And there are couple of them that we're slightly more clever. And I was like, now we're onna A, B test them and I go, mine is, I love guys with wood dot d dot. What do you think bet did Better? Of course, this one is slightly off.

Spectrum is still true. So it's not complete click bit. But IT makes you feel something when you see IT is going to do Better.

And so that's just marketing and sales one to one. And that's also attention one to one. Like if you have a tender profile, you're probably Better off having something slightly controversial. So I bet women would .

engage with that like K K.

Hood would probably that far, I don't know. The brits really know what was happening .

in there enough a reading as a diet. Be careful what you read. That becomes the way you think words are heard and eternally ze, then repeated and then habituated.

Create what you let into your brain, as you do with your body. This got me onto an idea, or had a while ago, about the content diet. So most people, specially now, especially in Austin jesus, are super, super concerns that see dials in this.

What's the amount of glue? cos? Tell me if this has been responsibly sourced and like you d Better be from an organic farm at the only pesticides did somebody that had the vaccine live within ten miles of where this car was like, you know, getting milk drawn from IT um and yet when you look at the youtube suggested feed, it's just limbic race to the bottom. The brain stem bench po destroys like panel of left this that know it's the stuff that, the guilty pleasures that many people like to watch and yeah, he got me thinking about if the cells in your body are made up from the food that you put in your mouth, your brain is made up of the things that you watch and listen and read. And given that your content diet should be spirulina for the soul, rather than fast food for your a mick deller.

the great line, by the way, speciality up for the soul bookmark trademark. Yeah, I love that. What I found about reading is I can immediately see the condition of greatness when I read IT, and then I take action.

So if you go and you read Charles buk. Skies, best pieces, and then you go to write IT. Your riding will be uplifted by this contagious effect of greatness.

Rubin off. I don't know what IT is. I don't know if there is a frameworks er philosophy as to why, but I found the same thing with looking at deals.

Often when I go to invest in a company, I look beforehand at what had warned, buffer t say, and his last memo about how he analyzed the company. And you can actually, I think, steal from the minds of others by figuring out what you allow into your brain and then apply that immediately to what you do. So it's not just in either all the time what are you listening to.

But right before you go take an action, if you're going to go into the gym, you know usually maybe you're taking some sort of free workout, right? And then when you're in the gym, you're putting in some hard core rap or whatever you listen to when you work out your buff did. And then when you're done with A G, M, you might go soner or whatever.

But the influence that you have right prior, if you have a giant donut or stake immediately prior and you listen to lot of array, is going to be a different experience that if you do the former, why would we think that would be any different with any other aspect of our life? So I have now applied that pretty aggressively to the very few things that I know drive most of my success, which is before i'm writing, before i'm investing, before i'm hiring. Who can I steal from to get some of their intelligent?

Oh, it's like an intellectual fdy.

Ac, yeah, exactly. yeah. I think that's right. I still like experiences for the soul Better.

but I thought was good to keep that really. Yeah, I am the content thing, the priming yourself. Who do you want to be around? I love, you know, I know that he's like an unspeakable guy because you've promoted the fucking lockdown or whatever when I read ran holiday and I can't get this is much more pedestrian pace, two kind of what's going on.

And I imagine as every minders i'm in the robot empty, I imagine that i'm walking through you know the roman forum of the stop poe clay below the um paths in athens. And you just get this much slower sort of pace of life and pace. I'm sure if I looked at my H V. And arresting heart rate would come down. I am just thinking about ideas and i'm it's couched in this much slower, slower sort of existence and I really, really enjoy that.

And you know, if I was to then go in and try and have A A difficult conversation, I think I feel more resilient if the alternative is watching a whatever podcast like we kick these only fans thoughts out like, can you believe what can is so and said to this, like such, such a person like art will guess, like what dreams i'm having tonight. Like I want dreams. I he's a good metric.

Mean, George mac have been talking about the difference in hidden and observable metrics. Am are trying to come up with some of the greatest hidden metrics that tell you whether your life is going well or not. One of his that was pretty contrarian was the number of hours per year that you spend in a hac is like a really fucking great hidden metric of how well your life is going. That like if you spend a good few hours in a hair, like it's probably pretty good, I would say the number of hours that you have having dreams about the roman empire would probably be a stronger and stronger, but a hidden and observable metrics fucking obsess with this year at the moment.

I'd like IT what we went on our fridge Chris and I have my Chris is my husband, not you Chris other Chris and um he one of his favorite quotes from mark israelis that is the something along the lines of um throughout your day assume that the people that you meet will be miserable, wicked, uh selfish eta and do right anyway something like that regard. And I always chuckle with IT because you know my husband is so he is a very intense ood and he has incredibly high expectations former military and A V C O um and expects humans to be honour and to do the right thing and to be thoughtful and turns out most humans s are not like that and so I bought IT for him as a reminder, coming back into the civilian world that unfortunately this worry or culture that he has been in is not Normalized. And thus, if you can start your day every with really low expectations, IT turns out that often the day is surprise you and so that has been helpful .

for us to ideas strongly stated and loosely held. Having a strong opinion is the mark of intellect, but having the ability to change IT is the mark of true intelligence. Only politicians hold one stance forever for fear of flip flopping. We motors do Better to constantly experiment.

And I ve recently spent some time with vivid rama swami a the presidential candidate um and also spend a lot of time with other political candidates who are hanging up named or won't name and and what i've been impressed by with or say two of the candidates on one on each side of the air has been that they played in the realm of business where numbers mattered and outcomes were obvious.

And so you either winner lose in business, there is a score card every single day and every single year, and you only stay in business if you continue to win the score card. And and what I like about vivox perspective, I don't agree with him on everything, but he has changed his mind on many things. And what sort of business leader or human would you be if you couldn't change your mind once you had increased inputs? That would be absolutely wild.

You find out x and you say, nope, artie, up my mind on this. And yet that is what we expect of our politicians often, and our leaders like what this guy changes mine, thank fucking got. Think god, there is a human out here who continues to think not just in sound by its unin full nuances.

So i've got this idea about the unreliable ally, and basically somebody who's a mono thinker that a is sticks rigorously to the party line that's ideologically pure. They are very predictable for the future, which means that they make a really great airline because you know that no matter how much new information comes to them, not changing the mind.

So yeah, I can totally see why that would be A A good signal that you want in a friend, but a totally terrible one that you want in a political ally, right? Because you don't know what if what if things change a lot over the next couple years? Switch parties. Oh my god.

you know yeah I think you're right. Yeah we kind of a talk about um choose insides. I do think it's really important to have humans who will choose difficult sides but not have strong opinions once they learn new information.

And so my husband always talk about fact that um you can really I think what you want people want but they don't know how to look for IT is most humans what you want is somebody who will stand by you even win the mob. What when things are irrational, somebody will stand by you because they know who you are as a human beings. That is what we want in our lovers.

That is what we want in our friends and in our colleagues. And instead of looking for somebody who has, over time, taking courageous stances, you look for somebody who has continued to follow set norms in order to put them in a box. And I think that's the mismatch.

If instead we looked for people who, no, they took a really difficult stand on this, even know that was detrimental, actually, to there will be in, I would rather sign with that person then. Well, this person has done the party line continuously. And so I could assume the outcome here.

Two really good models for this. When was the last time? In fact, more, when was the last time that you heard this person changed their mind? Like, can you recall when they said I was wrong about x and especially if they're different in center about IT?

Secondly, how often their opinion surprise you, right? I think about so many of the creators online that a big, and I know, tell me something's onna happen. Russia brands has been accused with a me too thing.

They go, I know every single persons in this lineup opinion, I can predict IT with one hundred percent accuracy. The most, as far as I can tell, good faith, genuinely intellectual, virtuous people are the ones who every so often are going to do something. You go, really, are you think that I don't agree, or that might be wrong? What say what you want about sam Harris I know is like the least cool guy on the internet the moment and everyone wants to keep dunk on him despite the fact he's not on twitter. He continually trends on twitter um but I have good faith that he believes what he says, that counts for a lot， but the problem is unreliable, really unreliable.

Ally, right? Third thing, final thing is how many different problems does this person explain with the same solution? So if all of the issues of the world, if all of the problems are because of climate change, or all of the problems are because of racism, all of the problems are because of capitalism, say, oh, your demand for answers outstrips your supply. And because you only have this much world view and perspective, you just retrofit the one answer you have to all of the problems that are in front of you.

Yeah, one of the things that i've found most interesting is when were analyzing companies, the best companies and their founders, they do this one thing they say, here's the action I want to take, and here's our company. I'd love you to poke holes in IT and tell me the things you think I missing. And they're actively looking for disagreement because they don't want to be right, they want to win.

And most people who want to win, all we care about is we want to information gather. We want to always be connecting dots, and we can only connect us if we see more of them. And so the winners are usually the ones that will ask you, tell me what i'm doing wrong.

Tell me what I am missing here. I think this, but I am open to persuasion. Where are the other? And IT was funny because we actually did, uh, little mini podcast other day, and I was so irritated because I had this person on because they had incredible tweet that I was like, oh, spiky point of view. I wanted talk about that. Then they came on and they just soft soften IT and they waffle IT and they didn't all stick by what they had said.

And and I at I was I was poking and like, did you change your mind on this? Like, do you think something differently? And they're like, know what I meant to say was, I know what you meant to say is that you ve got kind of called out for this, and your strength and beliefs were overcome by other people's opinions and likes and those type of people. Once that happens to me once with somebody, I realized he, those can be an acquaintance, but they'll never be in the inner circle.

I had an interesting lesson that I learned, which relates to something you had here, the gift of descent. Sicker fans, yes, men will kill you faster than decent. Surround yourself with unruly individuals who make you stand your ground or perrit you for not? 嗯， that's exactly the same as what you just talk.

king. Yeah, we you know, one of our job, one of my favorite of descriptions of all time is the shackle ferd job description which is um shackleford went to an article right and wrote this little tiny job description that now has been used all over the internet， you know high likelihood to die looking for adventurous souls um you know who who want the ability to fail greatly, basically.

And one of the things I talk about with our team and the people that we hire continuously is you want to look for the people who get off on the heart, like you want to look for the people who when there is a potential to fail and when something is difficult is when they get interested. And if it's not that interesting, they're probably not going to to participate. And those human humans are relatively rare because in today's world, we want to succeed so badly uh and IT seems like we have repercussions that if we do fail, there is something wrong with us.

And yet most of the most successful people I know, I have just failed profile, continuous ously and yet iterated and learned on IT. Um and so you know on our team, one of the other things that that we do and ten is here so you tell if i'm lying or not but uh like I find that if you are a manager of humans, if you are a leader of humans and your humans don't disagree with you often, then you probably are not a leader of humans. You're a director, you're somebody who they work for because they have to but you haven't actually inspired somebody enough to tell you that there are true thoughts on where are the other and that's usually what kills companies faster than anything. Is a series of yes man surrounding somebody who should have been told. Now the .

problem as well is, if you don't have people who will tell you what reality is showing you, your own observation and biases and blindness will never get corrected.

And presuming that you start to continue to make progress over time, the impact of your decisions continues to get bigger and bigger and bigger yeah and that means that at the time when your impact and the magnus de of what you choose to do is the greatest, your ability to see what reality feedback to you is, is that its lowest? And you've had this emperor has like emperors new clothes fucked in scenario, right? Yeah, for god knows how long and IT means you you completely .

out of touch, true, live and joke with my husband that you should tell me when I look at, please do because I don't want to hear that from somebody else, first of all. Second of all, it's not healthy for me to be that way.

So in fact, I would want nothing more than the humans that are closest to me to tell me the hard thing first before I go out and people tell I have no close or I look awful in this, and where is that, okay? And society where we say, this is a little White lie, yeah, I didn't look great, but I lied to them. Why would you want to be lied to by somebody that you know loves you? You you certainly will get lie to buy people who don't. And so let's front you, let's front run the pain so that we can have some short campaign, maybe even in private, instead of of suffering over the long term.

Um what actually we are talking about our mutual friend, her movie before and i'm a unlike many people a super people please are like actually at my core which is probably why were some I go at media we can have empathy and understanding which leads to uh association and um and so i'm really bad at that which means that sometimes i'm too agreeable and later i'll be like, I I didn't agree with that why why I say that thing and why did I say yes to this when I shouldn't have been saying yes to this and so you know, he jokingly has become my captain no. And i'll just say I don't feel like saying no to this. I'm in a screen shot to you any time I don't and you just tell me no because I aren't no I should say no and then i'm going to start screen shot you when I actually do.

And so we trade back and fourth nose because the more successful you get, the more questions and requests you're gna have. And if you don't learn to say no, you won't be successful. There's like a kind of Cindy video of elon mosques first wife.

Did you see that where SHE SHE basically says it's just crazy and in how it's displayed. But the message is incredible. And the message SHE basically says is I had a very successful husband.

I watched him for a long period of time. The number one reason he was the most successful is he had an amazing amount of requests based upon him, and he learned to say no Better, faster and more frequently than anybody else. And I was like, if elon musk says no, a lot that problem means or something .

good happening there, how you will become your felt sense to want to be a people pleaser.

Er practice practice, say no as often as possible, uh, with kindness every single time and brevity every single time. So somebody asked me the other day. Um they wanted to to style me or something can I know pick out your clothes and and Normally would say, oh, you know i'm OK right now but thank you so much.

I actually don't need that or I just bought new closer. I'd have some excuse and now IT is no, thank you. I hope you will.

No period and i'm sorry the second that you allow one other sense behind the word, you have allowed an so if instead I say, no, I don't really need IT right now. What's the option? What about later?

You know, if I say, no, i'm I R D, bought t some clothes that, well, what about I give you some cloth? And so what I found is we allow our concern for hurting other people's feelings to open a door. That just means we sound like more of a dictator, because we could send no fast up front, but we should have set up later.

Yes, the other truth is you will people will be pissed to you about this. People will be upset and sure that happens you all the time. I'm almost thinkless.

I don't have a podcast because I can only imagine the matter times. Interesting people that you really like ask to be on this podcast and you have to say, no, thank you. And no matter how you do IT and no matter how you phrase IT, that is always gna feel a certain way to a person.

One of the problems that you encounter them, if you don't end up learning to be able to say no fully, is that you have a kind of like a wave, a swell, undertake the surface of these. First you kick a count down the road, and then you kick a couple more counts down the road. And then before, you know, if you have this overlapping number of cans that turned into a fucking tornado and judge, all you spend your time doing is kicking cans.

And that is born out of a fear of disappointing people. I'd set next to a mutual friend of us, and he referred me to a therapies that worked with him now, like i've tried therapy before a couple of times, and like mixed, mixed results at the other side of IT. But if SHE can deal with this guy's bushed, SHE can definitely deal with milk because he's a decade.

So have started i've started um going back in the therapy and spending some time with her, which is really, really fascinating to be on the receiving end of questions for once is supposed to be the person giving ana the people please think things just such A A huge, huge block for me. It's such a difficult thing for me to get passed. And I start to see in a lot of of the people because a lot of the time you see people's policeman or the way that they move through the world as an accurate portrait of their volition or their intention, is what they actually meant to do.

And you go, no, it's not. Think about all of the things, all of the ways that the desire has been perturbed, right? I thought this was what you actually meant to do, but what you meant to do with the opposite.

But you were so shy or tired or nervous or hangover, or you didn't want to upset this person, or you'd had an argument with the a boyfriend that whatever IT was. So the other thing happened from the outside, what you see is that what they meant happen from the inside. It's this, you know, game of tennis and pingpong between two choices, ten thousand times in a minute.

And then they go, we do something. go. wow. So yeah, that's a kind of opened my eyes to the world of people, please. I was like a secret member of the people, please, a club.

and I never knew. Well, I bet people in the internet would be surprised that you would say you are a people pleaser and that I would say, as a people, please, are because we have some rough edge. I know that i'll take some difficult stances, but I ve almost found that people who take difficult stances have learned to do IT because we too often in spite yeah ah and so it's you're scared and you don't anna, take the difficult stance but you do in anyway I think there's very few humans you know maybe Donald trump has learned to like, you know the pain .

of right but I have .

i've never met a person even who was quite embassies who said that they didn't have some discomfort with controversy pushing back and never met one.

Mi.

okay, I don't know who that he is.

a cultural commentator, professional troll, y internet. He's liked the low key of politics and he likes IT. H he fucking libs for IT.

Yeah, yeah. He absolutely libs for IT. Another interesting one, Warren buffer t doesn't optimize. Wake up at five A M, meditate, workout, drink seventy two answers of chloride water and stand upside down, okay, or do none of those things, and instead focus on thinking clearly, intently and strategically before you pull any trigger. This relates to an absolute monster from alex, which was your fears about perfection will kill you more quickly than .

your imperfections. Yeah, an O, G, one of mine. Often, I think if you want success, you should look at those who have had the thing that you already want.

And so I was getting caught up in this series of noise surrounding all the shoots that are in my life that are actually not needs and um and so I went to one of the people that I admire the most, which is at least from a business perspective, warm buffet. And I looked at what his day was and you know the mother fucker drinks coke everyday ah you know he's eating mcDonald's h cheese burker. He's uh not working out and hasn't for a while and he largely sits and things and reads a newspaper every single day.

And when I looked at that, I thought, well, he has basically realized that there's a ten to twenty percent that drives eighty percent. And so now I mean a thing right now and I am trying to be healthier and work out more and trigger to six back and whatever the cookies do. And and I have this trainer right now that I really like, but he has me, you know, tracking my steps every day, tracking my macros in putting a workout or like, check the box and how much my lifting.

And when I finally said to him is what are the two things we could do, where if we did those two things, everything else gets easier and my team gets tired of here me say this, but i'm like, you have a list four hundred lines long of to do list items just like everybody else does. And yet you spend your time taking them off as opposed to thinking, is there one snowball in which if I pushed IT, everything else became easy and you know, for for working out, for instance, there's one snowball, which is, if I just preorder a set number of meals each week from the same provider, I don't have to track my macros because I i've had the guy track and already and I know what IT is. And you could do that even if you you just order to, to put every single day.

And so there's no monitoring reason why I wouldn't have to do IT. And uh this tracking in the APP every single day ridiculously doesn't have to happen and it's the same thing for a workout. Or what if I just do the same work out every single day uh, or three rotations of IT for one month that I rotated again for you know, to have diversity in my training.

And instead of that, we later all this complexity, which makes absolutely no sense to me. And so um I like cold plunging. I like you know some level in my water, but I think we'll be fine if we skip at every now.

Then yeah, the concern about the over optimization often gets in the way so much and makes you fat. I worried, what if I? What if I don't show up sufficiently effectively? I had a reindeer is on the show.

You know him from flow research collective, new, new scientist, researcher, inflow. He's brilliant. He taught me that if you bothered about flow, the best thing that you can do is a morning routine is work with the ninety seconds of waking.

in fact, makes me feel Better about what I actually do.

Yeah, depends. I don't think that what he meant by work was frantically answer emails .

with lots of capital letters.

but don't actually do my own email. So his thing is, get up within ninety seconds of waking, right? Not of getting out of bed, of waking, be at your desk working, especially if you need to do deep work writing creative stuff.

Uh and i've been this on weekends um with my news that which I do on monday, I released on the monday so i'll be writing away and IT seems to work pretty quickly. The reason the argument is that uh delta and theater uh sleep and a flow brain wide states right next to each other so it's actually easier to slip from sleep into flow than IT is typically from daily. I've just walk the dog and got called in traffic into flow even though I think got him only just awake. This is stupid. IT seems to be the case, at least the newer science specked IT .

up yeah I mean there's a great book that I can't remember the name that talks about um all the varied habits of the grades in the morning and evening routines right? And then there was a new york um author as well that tried all of them and then also did a youtube series on them which was historical you know because I was like some of the great writers know basically like got up at three am, not able light of cocaine, started writing until they got so hungry they needed to drink and then they cut right I mean ridiculous right.

But what I realize is um you know I think the muse loves habits, whatever those habits are for you, the muse really likes when you continue to show up in the same way day after day and whatever that way is, you can decide by and large. But the common thread of scene for successful people is they have a process, they have a flow. And to try to project that on, another person is like to try to say that you should eat this when I know nothing about your genome, how you work.

And so for me, I get up early. I do a cold plunge because i'd like him groggy in the morning. I do IT for, like, way less than I probably shoot or any scientific benefit. I grab a coffee and I get to work. And that works for me right now.

But see, in a year, the only thing that I know will be consistently true, as I will have a process I follow every single morning, because I do not believe that you wait for the muse, for whatever you do. I think you go and you grab IT and you tell them to show. But I had him.

just like you will, very Stephen press beauty modem as a superpower. The best ideas need breathing room. There are flowers stretching for the sun, clutter them with meetings and watch them die.

Instead, he cleared his schedule every morning with no calls. Pride to ten. I M. I do the same pad with two no cold days a week.

Yeah, i'm pretty religious about this. My team knows that I only take calls or meets on monday wednesay friday. I will substitute something like a podcast for a tuesday, thursday or a speech but nothing continuous.

Um because what i've realized is you as you get more successful, you really have one job that is to find that ten to twenty percent that drives eighty percent and IT takes digging its needle in the haystack work. It's not stacking up haystacks. And what most people do all day is they stack hasta ks that do the same thing continuously every single day.

But what do we know about Normal? Normal equals results we don't actually want. And so um I find that if I do not allow my ideas room to breathe, i'm anxious, frustrated, kind of uncreative and probably come up with more problems and solutions hiding metric.

how many hours pieri spending being bored, I bet that that would be correlated with the quality of your life and you're flourishing as well. More time being .

bored would be good. I think they say that that is true. I wonder though.

IT depends .

what type of board of.

of course, yeah, but with someone giving you a rubbed speech presentation at work, but like walking through nature, allowing your mind to flow as IT wishes.

pretty good very much. And what we call that instead, it's not really bored on it's like .

it's not quite rumination I guess imagination.

time yeah it's basically winner you when you're you in a non action taking state, how often can you be in something where you're not entertaining and you're not taking action?

I had this conversation with john level from the warrior poets society OK big like military guy. Propt ric guy are also a big Christian guy. And he was episode six, six, six.

And I got a shit ton of kickback in the comments, because people, I can't believe that you put like john on episodes. Ty, we needed a man like john to battle. The devils number was like, I did.

I IT was just a saturday, right to me. He was just a saturday, I didn't think. But anyway, cool. And he taught me this time, which I fucked in love. I think you enjoy as well to call the tyranny .

of the urgent .

yes so the tyrant's of the urgent and .

there is like a quote or something that either he .

has or somebody else has .

about that oh that you have the memory for quotes but something to degree of um if you let the tyranny of the urgent overwhelm the important ah you'll never achieve something like that. We can have the internet tell me i'm wrong to say the right words um but I that's that's very, very true. I also find the most like if you're particularly frizzled, it's probably because you are focused on urgent and not important.

And those who focus on important, not urgent, kind of coast their way through life. I mean, to go back to bill perkins because I adore the guy. I remember when I showed up at his house the first time I was late.

So as brazil, i'm letting that basically always late and i'm over schedule. So I was doing way too many things. And as I got there, he was he was so calm while making more money than I do and having more the idea.

And I was, you know, I kind of like, bill, what you got gone on the day like this is the day and like, what's what's this he's a you this conversation with you is that it's and not important thing that I have to do today. And I just that's fascinating even when I talk to his wife, she's like, yes, he's quite he will move very quickly between activities. You'll get out of bed, he will immediately get on a phone call. But the things that are important, you allow a ton of space on either side.

Yeah, he's not swamped by the urgent. Yeah, he seems to have a lot of an all a lot of time. He's another hidden metric.

I'm just throwing this out out of you are the average speed that you walk out. I bet that if it's I bet if it's reduced down, the average speech walk at player is like a really lovely metric. Or if i'm just fuck, I got time. Mt.

if you at the .

airport.

possibly you should just get out people's way. Actually, you know what? There's two things I think I agree with you on when necessary, walking with conviction. But a not frantick ness is an interesting one. I think the counter opposite is show me how long IT takes you to order at a counter, and I will show you your big account.

I think the longer .

people take and I had had me happened to me the other day, and I about lost my mind. But I was at a counter like, one does a coffee shop or something. And there there is always a lady in front of you, right? And the lady in front of you takes for centuries to order a coffee and a mother.

And when I realized very quickly is, you know, if you want to get something done, you give IT to a busy person is the same. And I think often that's why they say you should take somebody dinner before you hire them or take them out to lunch, see how they treat the staff. But I also think saying how quickly they make decisions because people who take forever to order when they stand in line one are really comfortable inconvenience in somebody else around them, which means they have limited self awareness, maybe borderline nurse ism, and then simultaneously, they're not very efficient at the things that don't really matter that coffee order. Does that really matter? And so if we know we are here for a final amount of time, I spend so much time on that as opposed to a walk, a certainty .

you really didn't like this did. Speaking of that, the toleration chAllenge, what if your intellect is measured by how much truth you can tolerate? Can you be told you're wrong and that dress makes you look fat and you're getting older and he's smarter than you and .

take instead yeah and my husband and I basically have a thing where something annoyed me yesterday, actually. And instead of typically what do we want from our partners when something annoyed us, we typically want the other person to just go, yeah, fucked up. I yep, agree you are right. He was wrong. And instead we make IT sort of a purpose of saying, all right, what are we are going to learn from this um and so he gave me some free back and really like I was you and yet that practice helps us because if we don't associate with you know to get wu because we're located here in Austin, we know that you know we're not our body because we can have thoughts that changes our body changes, you know, we know we're not our jobs because our jobs can change. We know we're not the way that we look because if something terrible happens to us, we're still there.

So if we know we're not all of these things, why would you let IT control so much of your brain for you to be seen one way or the other about them? And it's something, I think about a lot because we're on the internet, which means our reflection is throw in our face constantly, and often other people's reflection of themselves is thrown in our face constantly. And because of that, I don't think you can have thin skin. And beyond the internet, that's actually kind of a beautiful thing because you learn none of IT merely matters. We will all die eventually, and every one of us will be forgotten when there's such a liberty there.

The way that that gets perverted is people go from IT doesn't matter. I can have unbound dreams to IT doesn't matter. Nothing that I do makes any difference, right? It's the a nyalong m or cynicism versus optimism. Helicopter thinking c saw and IT seems to be a bit of a knife edges between the two.

But I also agree that if you have a, if you have a partner or a friend or somebody who regularly will compromise what's true and or tell you what's convenient, are comfortable that I actually like really rubbish. Why bother asking them anything? Because every single question that they hear is not, what is the truth about this thing? It's, what do you think I want to hear from you that every single question is, is the same question? What do you think that I want to hear from you and then you to say that and again, the the people, please I think what also we learn from bill perkins, he was instrumental in bringing you down to earth in a pretty big way I think .

yeah well he was funny. Um I think our first interaction, um I consider myself relatively successful and and so when I went to meet with him and I told him about some of the things we were working on, he had this lime that stuck with me that I wish I could just like put on A A B sticker somewhere um which was I was explaining and all these things are working on. We're buying these companies here and here we're growing. And he kind of looked at me and pause like he does and he's like a code.

Do you think that you have been investing in small businesses for so long? Small has infected you're are thinking, I was like, an an immediate reaction could have been like, what are you fuck you know um and instead I took a pause and I was like, there's so much freedom in that line, what if I am thinking too small? And somebody else who has had a past history of positive performance says that then what might might I be capable of? And so I almost wish all of us a friend that pushes us harder as supposed to, is the shoulder to cry on and says, like, you know, what i'd like you to do next time is something else.

In fact, we have another mutual friend that I was talking to that did something really big and really successful. And and they came to me because there are high performer. They're like, what what should I have done different? What should we have done different? And I was like, I think one, and I want you to hear this.

Everything you did was incredible and so impressed by you and and I think you should keep going. And then I said, secondly, there is this one thing that you did that was a mimic of somebody else. And what if that would have been a totally unique style to you? And that's what I want to see from you next time.

I think you are capable of coming up with your own style that is totally copyable. And SHE was like cat, thanks. Because what everybody else said was positive, positive positives. And very few people will tell you, yep, what if you could do this one thing that is your shitty, but what if you could do this one thing Better when that be cool?

Two stories that come to mind. First one, lex freeman was at some party neurodiversity degenerates that Michael mysy house and I was talking to him about. I think he was, think he was saying he had a lot of work on at the moment.

And he was doing his robotic stuff and he's doing the podcast. And maybe the ukraine conflict IT was was going on to. And he was just feeling, I feeling he all of the stuff going on. Ba ba, like, i'm interesting. And then I took a pause and he said, I wish that my friends would stop comforting me when .

I say that I work hard.

because some of his friends say, you already work so hard, like, you know, you should go easier on yourself, like this is you're doing a lot, as IT is. He said that he really, really values the friends that say, yeah, this is tough, but you're tougher hundred percent.

You know, even my mother, she's had an incredible line to me. SHE basically said, IT is so simple, but we don't hear IT enough. You just continue every single day to do the best that you can, and only you know what the word best is to find us.

And most people put some subjective best, hard, good, bad on you supposed to say, I believe in you so much that you know what you are capable, love, and only you can answer if you are actually living up to that on a daily basis. And I love that because I actually think most humans are very capable. Should they apply themselves continuously in work, the point that is comfortable or even rational.

And if you can do that, you can achieve very many things pending. You don't want to be a basketball player and you're you know five one like pending those things, you can achieve much. And that's part of the reason i'm so prevalent on the internet now is, no, I made a lot of my money already in finance and doing the things that I did previously and that I realized I won't make more money because it's fun.

I really like every dollar I make, but I think it's more interesting if I could figure out, can I help other people actually achieve the same thing and not because i'm nice, i'm really not that nice, but just to see like is that possible because that seems like a more interesting and bigger legacy actually than just can I apply this one thing continuously? And so um lots of people who are on the internet, I think people say one thing or the other about humans. I gus that talk about things publicly and yet think god that there are humans like you who talk about things like neuro divergent being Normal because I thought that just used to mean, well, you know I have a little bit A D H D which means i'm defunct in some way um and so yeah I think most humans can work harder and they just don't wanted hear that you're getting .

parallel sly close to chaos man in the arena tweet which is gna get you and I actually .

have actually used that before. I do think, you know what? Fuck that. I think if you are on a small business and you are a business owner now, maybe not come off in the sweers and jett at this point, maybe you have a lot of buffer there. But I actually don't know as life so I don't know. Um but I think if you are a small business owner and you are working really hard out there, you're in the arena yeah and and I think my husband who went toward multiple times would say .

the same thing can definite a some sort .

of difficult and we should we should actually praise people for that little bit more.

You remember when elan took over twitter and um he said get rid of ninety five percent of the coding team, dev team, whatever. And I think he puts out a job application White page and says something like, if you want to work harder than you've ever worked in your entire life, come to twitter. And people criticize them on the internet and said, this is a return to, you know, early one hundred switch p labor.

What is this? So we're gonna going down chimney sweeping. And I understand that in a word web, we can have much more luxurious working conditions. And everybody can have their mindful monday and they can have their latter wednesday stuff like that. And that's not just a market like I do think it's a in some regards as much more baLanced alec culture.

But what IT fails to understand is that there is a cohort of people out there who just want to put their nose on the grind stone and see how fast they can make IT spin like all they want to do is work they love. And I fired up and takes so much more pleasure from the idea of achieving something completely unreal with that time. And IT is a failure of theory of mind for you personally, the internet, to look at that job post from elon.

Maybe this is exploiting maybe it's a fortunately um like a coincidence that he can both use the people's drive to be able to achieve whatever they want and also like get them basically a cut down Price to work twenty four hours a day. Perhaps, but IT is a failure of theory of mind to understand that there are people out there who just want to do that and they would fight them up way more to be told he's an absinthe unrealistic goal in a ridiculously short time span. And I want you to do IT is as much as all as you need an a comfortable standing desk. Lets see what you can manifest.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was so my human and was A N A B C. And I was at the like the four th uh year anniversary of his team siew team three, and I thought I was fascinated. A couple different fruits.

One you looked around the group of six hundred people, uh all gathered and you could immediately pick out uh all of the sales right out out of uniform because it's become so rare to be fit and healthy. And have you two hundred people who are like that all in one space? Two hundred warriors was really rare. Thought that was interesting.

What I also thought was interesting as I spoke to them about IT, I spoke to those who had come out and those who we are still in is those who had come out and said, do you know what we miss more than anything? And i'm like the renal in, you know, the Operations kicking down r IT. Was doing extremely difficult things with other people who want to do extremely difficult things well.

And that level of of human who wants to excel is just rare. And so when you're around them, you feel that you know you feel the difference between you have an energy that is positively accelerated when you're around another duer, they just they don't drain from me because they're too busy doing and pushing out. And with with the seal teams, I was never in them. I can't speak to any of IT myself, but what i've seen is that these guys miss that more than anything else when they get out. It's not just like conroy, it's we were excEllent at what we did, and we held each other to an incredibly high standard, and we had a joint purpose. And I mean, there was a study done during the blitz, right during during the world war, that everybody talks about with humans were conceivably happier as defined by uh, lower suicide rates during the blitz then uh afterwards because there was a shared purpose and meaning and so I think if you compare your shared purpose and meaning with a group of excEllent humans, let go of all of those uh who do not want to be excEllent because cancer spreads. Then you can create somewhere where people want to spend twenty four hours working because society at large nothing like that and you can feel the difference.

What did you learn looking around the room of two hundred sees, three hundred sees? What did you learn from looking at their spouses?

Well, that's interesting. Um well, the spouse is probably fit in a lot of ways to categories. Uh, one category would be more traditional looking sun dresses, you know cute kids running around, happy looking american family and the other were just as jack is there, you know, just as as as like a strong and tatua uh as the man.

And so um I actually thought that was an interesting dichotomy. And you see that like gril lines in front of me and she's a about us doctor. And also just like one of the strongest, fittest woman i've ever met in .

my life is her husband seal.

her husband to seal right and a surgeon and and then Emily for seller, andy for sellers wife, also just ject in great shape. Um her husband is in a seal but like I do think that IT seems like really strong driven men that our team guys either what sort of the traditional spouse um you know sunracer a or like a very strong similar person to them.

And when i've got got to know a lot of these guys and I have a lot of respect for them and their spouses, there's two types of strength there. I mean that the physically strong thing is really important, but you will not last them in the divorce rate of among team guys and special Operators and general. Incredibly high oh it's the highest of any military um one because they're gone all the time, both training and deployment um and two because i've been you know through deployment with my husband and it's emotionally taxing in a way that we are not habitable zed to and so um you have to be strong enough to do that.

I I think I would have struggled to do IT with kids like I have nothing but respect for the women who have kids with men who go into line of duty every day where they could potentially die. That's incredible. Difficult to live through.

What's the reality of being married as a power couple?

I'm so funny is everybody says, ds, it's really hard. And Chris, I kind of look at each other everyday. We're like, best part of my day, right? Like we wake up.

The more you or I actually do the morning, I do get in the cold plunge first. Chris and I snugged like little nerds for, like, five or twenty minutes. We're just like snuggling, talking to each other.

The dog is into the bed, but dog, a little tiny thing, not even a cool look and team. Get dog. And, uh, and he's, you know my person who is somebody that I can just trust and rely on and I think i'm not for him too. We loved to the quote I remember in the beginning we were first stadium didn't age well because I think I was jeff bizos who said I married my wife because I wanted somebody who could get me out of a third world prison at any point uh but um we always kind of associated with that know our thing is a thing to the world and so I think that that one truth have been a power couple. I I don't know any different because i've always worked so i've never been in my my husband is always worked in most of my significant others were powerful and successful in a traditional sense.

Um but one of the most incredible things, I think when you find another human who is striving for something is you really can track on what's going on in your lives and and there's a lot you can share whether at least from my perspective, if I was with a man who wasn't working very hard a in a job in some way they perform, it's harder for us to be on the same page and I end up having to talk with a lot of other people. The thing I obsessing on all day long and I never really understood how people could be, was like the trophy. One thing never really made sense to me, a trophy girlfriend makes a lot of sense.

Trophy boyfriend makes a lot of sense. A wife, her husband doesn't to me. Because what would you talk about? Do you guys just look at each other all day? What's happening there? And so I actually think that's really shallow, and we should all strive to be the best versions of ourselves.

Not to mention during ever that up there is a blog post a million years ago where the guy was, like, really brutally said, why would I ever have a trophy wife? Or a trophy husband was talking about a trophy wife um and he's like and and marry that person for just their looks when your looks are definitely going to appreciate over time and my assets will appreciate over time. And at the time I have been like, yeah fuck that guy and I was like, that also kind of drill makes a lot of sense if all we're talking about is the way you look. That's pretty shallow. And so I don't have a lot of complaints, and I think I wouldn't last very long with somebody who wasn't driving right alongside me.

What there's a lot of talk a narrative on the internet about the sort of alpha polarity that you supermassive guy with the very feminine woman that must be a leader, that must be a follower. What is the dynamic like given that you are two leaders? Yeah uh.

I sort of have this theory. We'll see if he plays out. You add the girl boss, me too.

Movement, right? Women, power fucked. Then he had the alpha man movement, you know, get behind me.

I'm the protector. I'm in charge. You know, women, stay home in your gardens. And I think in the future, what we're going to come back to, which is what we do every time we have massive pension pendulum swings, is like a yeah, what are we both kind of chill out in the DDL like that seems like typically where we go and I think there will be not an alpha power couple, but h what if we both just realized there were no one students, and we look for somebody who could actually support us continuously?

A bunch of the guys that have that alpha woman movement, sane got the force like one of the main guys who was like, you must protect your family, you know, do whatever, and had of a woman that was sort of the other thing, gets a divorce. The other guy who is a big proponent of IT, like androtten, not fuck married. So like the people who are talking about this alpha man movement, let's score bore IT.

Let's see over time, does this work out for you? And i'm a big proponent of you should do whatever you want. But I think i'm good friends with the hoosiers because I watch them have each others back through time and that seems to be more sustainable than the other way around what you think.

Uh, so I think that there is a significant cohort of women who are like you attracted to guys who have excEllent but don't have that same drive themselves. I don't think that the reverse is quite as true for men. I don't think you're going to find a Normal dude who chokes away at a perfectly acceptable job but is like I really get turned on by like boss bitch women that like you know like high powered lawyers and stuff.

Because the society economic status of a woman doesn't matter as much to a man, on average, as IT doesn't reverse. So I think that ultimately, being competent as a man, and this is you to cut through three and half of learning evolutionary psychology, whether IT be states, whether IT be resources, whether IT be lucks, whether IT be height, whether IT be being funny, whether IT be being charming or whatever, like just portraying competence, right? But competence comes on both sides of the equation.

And the polarity can be changed with quite nicely, because, you know, if you see as a husband, if you see your wife just you like a fuck in visit with the kids, you know and the all three of them are ready for school five minutes early in the breakfast done and know there's a kiss on the chicken she's out the door you like at your fucking in n boss like sure you're not going off to the the officer, whatever, but you've got this shit on lock that's attractive. A grade players look for a grade players, right, regardless of sector, correct, regardless of what the subgenre of game is that that playing? Yeah, right.

And this is why, you know, very rarely do you see, I be watching that quarterback c on netflix. It's about three different N, F, L. Quarterbacks, and patric homes is one of them.

And you look at all three of the wipes of these guys, all three of them pretty well spoken that not you know super prick like A I think at least maybe two of them have been together since before they're even in college, right? So it's not like to pick up some like a hot, hot girl and like moved in at the house or whatever longstanding relationship, but they all all of the goals, uh like competent with what they do, like they they're able to talk and they are able to explain and they have inside about themselves and they have inside about their partner like yeah that's like that's hot. That's cool, right? Like it's attractive. Competence is is attractive and incompetence is almost always going .

to be unattractive. absolutely. yeah. I mean, I do think one one thing i've found for women that I think women really need to watch out for, and i've noticed this just among my friends because I I am a little bit older now, so I have a lot of my friends who have had kids and been married for a period of time.

And a lot of them are highly competent. Like you said, our incredible mothers or incredible mothers, have got through childbirth multiple times, which still intimidates me, and I find incredibly impressive. And then I found there's this, there's this low period after your kids don't need you as much anymore. And you know, your husband has continued to progress in this lenie career progression. And you pour yourself with competence into your, your, your kids and I think we will see in the future a rising usage of uh, prescription pills, sleeping AIDS out of all to the subset of women because they start to realize, uh, where do I go now and society doesn't really have this fit for me any longer.

Or what that typically or traditionally would have been. If we roll back over two hundred years, we would have been in pan generational houses, right? So I would have been assisting with my sister's daughters, 我的， assisting with my daughter's daughters, assisting with my niece, assisting with my what up right?

You know, there would be so much to do. It's called allow parenting. Not many animals do IT, but humans do.

Where multiple related and unrelated women share the child reading burden together. right? Is wearing a human child is an effort, effort, task.

So you share between your friends and your family. And there's an idea, if you do, you know why the evolutionary, the psychology explanation for why maniples exists? No, this cool. So it's called the grandmother hypothesis.

Grandmother hypothesis says that why would you have an animal, female animal, that exists beyond the reproductive window, if our goal is to survive, reproduced as soon as you stop reproducing? Surely kicking the bucket makes a ton of sense, because get out of the way, let the calories go to the ones that going going to be able to survive if you can no longer make kids. But that doesn't account for the fact that the very effortful ring is required for human children.

So if you imagine that you have a particular fatlings window after that point, you as grandmother can no longer produce children that sap calories, but can contribute to the ring of children, not only yours, but your daughters and your sisters and son, and soft. So this is the grandmother hypothesis. You are age out of your reproductive role and moving into a new kind of role. So you are still a net positive from a chloric perspective to the whole tribe. I thought that's .

really interesting. That's fascinating IT actually makes a lot of sense um but I don't know what the solution is for the .

modern day modern day woman rough you know you've got adam land Smith tweeted distinguish a don't forget that moving out of home and eighteen is a side up by the really states industry like and in some regards is true, right? We would have always lived in big pane generation houses, farms, community type things. Um I think that you're right.

I think that as financial independent becomes more available to women, its lack will be more tightly felt, right? If you have sacrificed a career that you're already on or never got into a career to be able to raise the kids because you wanted to be the greatest mother that you could when that role is now gone. It's like being in A N, B, A staff.

Your thirty seven years old, right? JoNathan, come in. Sit down. There's your retirement check. You've done really great. okay? All i've known my entire life, or all that I can rember that i've known for the last fifteen years, has been bold or children. What where do you take your sense of meaning from? Uh and you know you see this, I think, uh, the Peterson talks about the greatest sacrifice that a mother can make is to allow their child to go out into the world knowing that their fragile and he says, a if .

you go .

out there, you might lose yourself, but if you stay with me, you lose yourself. L, and is this Michael Angels patter is is a beautiful marble sculpture that in the vacation, a is the mother with Christ sort of drape across her arms like this and he says, it's the female cruse affection. It's not about you.

It's about your child. It's rough. I think that you're right. I think that we will see some, some chAllenges that that being said, women have got really, really great performance in the workplace at the moment.

And I don't think that a fifty two year old mother of two who is still conscientious as hell and a super competent, is going to struggle to reintegrate back into a an office working environment, especially if you've got all of the emotional intelligence and all of the people's kills that have been developed over the last two decades of raising a bunch of tiny, screaming kids like that. A skill set. I certainly know within my Operation that having like a mothering role, someone to just lubricate the wheels socially, I think that would be a really cool. Like a like literally like A A surrogate mother is a lot of like lads. I guess that worked for me that you know, twenty five to thirty five dudes and I just someone to come in and be like, boys, can we stop doing X, Y, Z, or someones forgot that this thing professional mother, I think.

would be culprit mother. Yeah, I think we've got a new coin there. Um yeah well there's a couple things. One is a i've never really understood ages m in the workplace because if you actually employ older people of both sexes um balls people you know let's say fifty, sixty and above, the immediate reaction is usually that they have a deficit with technology, which is true as we will when we get to that age.

But the flip side of that is actually that their experience, lived experience is so strong that when you hire somebody like this, they just have more p they have more reps on this planet. And so I saw the other day we were in the team meeting and I have this one, a persons of my team shut up, kibera and she's great. She's mother thread.

And um and you know I saw one of our our individuals in the team getting little flustered a gent and I was pretty aggressive and direct, which not usually the best way to be when somebody is that way. And SHE as SHE probably with three kids, was amazing SHE was like really calm just like, you know how are you feeling about that? Like what do you think? And I would never ask a question like how are you feeling about that? I need to work on my EQ and he did.

And I do find that that aspect, I hope to bring back more. Goldman actually had a great program, which was bringing women reentering back into the the workforce. I'm not sure reentering back into goldman sounds great after I had bit on for a while um but i'm curious ous to see what happens for that generation of women.

And I think you will be it'll be really, really cool. And I also think my husband, I worked together in a lot of capacity and he still has his he he does work for the department defense um but that's another thing that people say you should never do and I find extreme joy in IT. Um and i'd be curious what what happened for more individuals.

If partners allowed their significant other more into their sphere doesn't mean have to overlap p entirely. We have very different pursuits. But when you can watch your significant other excel in something that you really understand day to day, I don't think there's anything sex here .

on both sides equis competence plus understanding, right? You're able to interpret you watch someone be really good at brazilian juja to or pick a ball or drawing or something unlike honey, you did great, right? I'm so proud of that thing you just did, which I don't largely understand.

And actually, if you were to look at some of the most sort after the pursuit outs for a guys, because, again, the increase in status that you get by being competent at something seems to be beneficial to make a little bit more what that actually looking at doing. I wonder if this is right. What men are looking at doing is trying to find pursuits that are the most easy to interpret t by the widest number of women.

Music, everybody can tell, is that good music or bad music, but you know how many people like, i'm gonna make a like cyberpunk drum and base. I'm going to be the best cyber punk, is I? Yes, sure.

But it's not going to be as broad comedy write movies. Everybody watches movies. Everybody watches comedy.

Everybody watches, listens to music? Yes, yeah. exactly. Like i'm gonna in shape. I can see that I don't kind of understand what's going on, but like I know that good or at least the people think that that's good and that's another one signal, right? So you've got not only is IT obviously competent, but do other people hold that competence in highest team? Gained cyberpunk drama base, who even knows if that exists. But if you're in a cohort of people who very much about this thing, then I remember when we were doing club promo so many times, some of the boys would use the term like she's instagram hot, right, which is like so SHE SHE looks fit on instagram, but in real life isn't quite as hot. But part of the hotness of the golden instagram was impacting how highly they regarded them in real life because you've got kind of Price selection, right? If this goes, got more followers than everybody else and everyone else is like looking at what she's doing and everyone thinks that she's really, really fit online even if you kind of isn't that in the real world almost like a degree of competence, right beautification the ability to beautify yourself and having a uh style visual appeal, even if that doesn't translate very much at all to the real world, is still A A thing, right?

Yeah what's true? You know I was talking to a couple of entrepreneurs either day about um they delivered something and I the end product was okay but the way that they delivered IT was poor and so I call this the Tiffany box theory. And basically, you know, if you look at two diamond ings that look identical to them, but one is from zales and one is from Tiffany, is this one from Tiffany will have a Price tag of fifty thousand, and this one will have a Price tag of five IT is the same exact product. There's literally no difference except the name on one versus the other.

And what is the real difference between the two? Well, if I was to give you either one of those rings, and I, like, stuck in a paper bag, and I crumbled IT up and I threw the paper bag at you, and then you got that ring, you are preselected. You already have a bias to say, what is this? This is like a faker ring. This is whatever.

IT wouldn't actually matter that this was the tiffanie, right? But if I gave you the five thousand dollar ring and I put IT in the Tiffany SE box, and I tied IT up and I presented IT to you in this way, you now value that ring at a fifty thousand dollar amount, even though the difference between a paper bag, twenty five cents and the 11 box， I don't know, a dollar fifty doesn't actually equate at all to the value that change between the two. But if we wrap something properly, we will consider IT to be more valuable. And that is like rule number one in success business, probably sex love the way you .

present message.

That's exactly right.

Think about I I learned this from different bottle a couple of weeks ago. Really good example. I think about how much space every apple store losses in terms of real state by not packing more technology onto each table, right? Going to in the U K.

I don't know them over here. Target maybe, I guess, but like PC world are curries. In the U. K. Like bike electronics stores are going to that and it's just a fucked in chaos.

Ve cables everywhere and screen are touching each other because the most amount of products that we can put out means that customers are able to find exactly what they want. You go into an apple store and it's just barren waste in between each product are. So a couple of a couple of a couple of interesting questions for the guys who like the idea of having a highly competent, driven smart go.

what. What are the dos and don't what should those guys think about? What are they getting right in getting wrong? And your and your friend's .

experience as such? An interesting question. Um well, a couple of different things. The easiest the easiest way I think to attract a we need we should come up with a term for this.

There are a term for, like I got .

what to use. I know the origination also. Could you imagine if I call myself a high value woman or somebody calls themselves as a high value man? I immediately there's a real number one don't you can call yourself that role.

Number two is um I think a couple things people underestimate. We're talking about the rappin. The rappin does not have to be six back and hacked to get a high view.

Women IT really needs to be confidence. I always joked with my husband. He's like, he joked as he shorter so is like, you know, nobody's looking at this and if you met him, which have met here.

you did me ah he just .

takes up a room just the way that he is his presence, he's really not afraid. He's uh rather direct um he looks you in the eye. He walks up to you specifically like he's supposed to be there and so are you and he's actually quite calculated on the method in which he would communicate with you.

And so because of that, he could be not the six six five o guy who is going to naturally have a an unfair advantage in finding a partner um but he would have this like on this satellite around him that you just this magnet that you get drawn drawn towards and I found that with a lot of the woman I know who are, let's say, traditionally, good looking, successful, competent, some way they perform often their partners are people who have an IT factor in some way. And the cool thing about an infact, or as you can create IT, you could actually learn to be the type of person who just shakes hands with a little bit of strength. Look somebody in the eye, and you can actually learn to be the type of person that listens and repeats back the thing that the person just said to them.

And that's a little bit curious. And that chooses not just to be nice but to be kind. And the other thing that I think people who are uh competent on either side of IT is they want they want you to be courageous in one shape, way, shape performing IT doesn't have to be because you're a man but they don't really care if you're the um you know nice oh yes of course thank you.

Um you know we don't really want that overly nice thing. What we actually do on is that you notice the guy on the side of the road who's having a flat tire and needs a little bit of help, and you decide to pull over and see what you can do to help the guy. You don't even even have to know how to fix IT. Just call up and make something happen. And so I think this world of like humans who make things happen end up running into more humans who make things happen because we're just busy doing to doing.

And so um the cool thing I think about if you want to find a woman who is a strong you know partner, many pursuits is they really just want a woman or a man who was also kind of strong in their own pursuits and some of my best friends who have long term marriages you know ten years plus um to men who even earn as monetarily successful as them and some of them are is that actually the way that the man looks? Has very little to do with that, which I don't always find to be true on the other side of the equation. But they might have like some incredible personality trait um and I think that's just really attractive to women.

What about the other side of the fence? What advice would you have for your female brethren who think I like the idea of getting a competent partner? What are the ways, the pitfalls that you see those women fall into or what are the things that they should be prepared for? Or what are the ways that that can go a right if they're looking for the the .

competent man? yeah. Have you ever proactively looked for a partner like been looking and thinking a lot about finding a partner?

No, not particularly. No, it's always kind of just study upon me.

Yeah, that's a commentate. I found typically, I think people who are competent looking for that same thing in a partner, they focus on Bettering themselves before they focus on looking for another. I think the biggest red flag is typically of a human who is like, I really just want to be with somebody.

I want to be with somebody. I'm ready. How do I find my person, get that energy out of your life as both a woman, which I can speak more to, and a man, and instead become somebody worth finding. And that's really hard to hear, I think, on either side of the coin.

But when you start working out IT doesn't mean you have to be perfectly fit, but you have more energy when you start pursuing something that you are unique ly interested, when you have will pursuits that are obsessions for you in some way, shape, form, form, you're more interesting and thus you will attract more interesting people. And I think the biggest thing that we have done wrong is a disservice to society. And you might have told me about this, we might have talked about this before, is assume that finding the right person is simply a game of swiping left, left to swiping right continuously.

I think one of the worst things we've ever done is allow dating apps to enter into our dating equation, because we have thought that IT is a numbers game of finding the right person. I supposed to a daily activities game of becoming the right person. When you become the right person, you will attract people continuously no matter what. I've seen this from both myself and my friends, who are varying levels of attractive, varying levels of rich, but working really hard on a few things that make them very .

interesting to humans. Yeah, I think lots of people ask the question where all of the good partners at very few people asked the question, why am I not attracting the kind of partners that I want to be attracted to? That the question.

And there's a line from artificial intelligence to zombies, a rationality for matters said by elia zau kosky. And he writes this book about rationality, which condition biases in the ways that are thinking goes a rie and stuff. And the start of IT, he says, people take the piece out of rationalists, not because being in love with rationality is strange, but because it's so love. It's so rare to love anything in the modern world.

And this death of passion that people have, like, if you ask someone, would you really love doing? I tell me, what gets you fired up? If you had an appointment at seven in the morning to do this thing, you would be out of bed at six because you couldn't wait to go and do IT, right? And that means that my house mate, we always use the same example, a rally cross.

So it's like to drivers in the four wheel drive cars and they're going through wooded things and everyone dies. Everybody dies all the time. And but does these dudes that go in the fucking pissing rain to perth, scotland, right in november at three P M on a wednesday afternoon with an an iraq and a umbrella r over the top of their head, some of them got cameras, some of them haven't.

And they stand there to watch a rally car go like that, and then they turn and look at their boys, and they like, and we love watching those videos, because watching anybody else get fired up at something that they love fires you up, right? To see someone love anything is so rare. It's like in a wasis, right, in a desert of blend and difference. Yeah.

I remember I knew I was gonna get divorce when I divorced, remarried. I knew I was gonna divorced when, 嗯， i remember him saying, there is nothing in the world that makes me happy anymore.

That's a daming in diem. Of what of life is that .

if and I thought that's not the world's problem, that's your, and we can work on that. But if you are not willing to see that is not cool, to think nothing is cool, then you will never love anything again, including me, and thus I cannot love you. And so um I find that that Spark of obsession doesn't even have to be greatness, but obsession is. So consider that it's like a little bit of oxygen in a vegas casino, IT makes you want to stay up all night.

Anybody that loves anything is cool. The guys on the side of the road watching Colin mercy go passed one hundred and twenty miles an hour. The flash of this one person that they know about, like I went to, uh, Cameron hands, took me to the bow rack in u gene, oregon, and he tuned up this bow.

I'd never shot a bow before since I was thirteen on a holiday doing like some lame kids club thing and i'm there with they do the on the sharp family runs sharp since they got a decade and decades and decades and you know, you can tell that it's a well one in shop because there's a loads of stuff that's only there because it's been accumulated there. Like it's not precise, it's not neat. It's accumulated stuff is the opposite of an apple store, right? Is like someone brought that cain seven years ago and you haven't moved IT yet, and it's just been on this window cell for ages.

But everywhere, and there's all of the boys and all of the arrows and all of the different types of arrow heads and and all this stuff. Anyway, these tuning me up on this boat, tuning me up on this bottini up, making sure that everything is right dialed. Ah, that's cool.

I go over to the kind like a workman's desk as an entire workman's area. Don't know what you've ever been ones boys getting tuned up here. So he's like tuning in the side, and he's making sure. And then he does this special thing with a lighter to just make sure that I think if you hit the thread bines a little bit more tightly and I got, this is a little trick that I learned with whatever whatever like, not supposed to set, shock, horror. Bwana one, don't set the string on fire.

But like he've found that if he did IT a little bit like tightened and locked everything, you know, some other bits pieces, I was enthrall because I was just around people that we're fucking in love with what they did. They were fired up. They were passionate about their thing, my love as well.

One other thing I really, really love seeing is people that have, how would do you say, very innocuous mastery, right? so. IT, for instance, one of the things that I have would, you know, one ever see when I sit down at my desk or stand in my desk to do the episode remotely. I can be thinking about the episode that i've got coming up whilst doing vocal warmups, but the way that all of the studio comes of, like Maxine, everything's checked, master is on monitoring, coming through my ears, every like just do.

And i've seen IT with so many friends, a friend that was a doctor and went to university for basically a decade to do three degrees work to black rock, became a doctor, became a, and if he has a pen in his hand, will you sit there and he'll do the most insane pentre? Ks, and he's not even thinking just because familiarity, right? Like, if I saw you are prepare.

In fact, I did see preparing for a talk or something like that will just be something that people do out is a perfect example. I saw, I saw a guy playing guitar on six street. And he's playing away, playing away, playing away.

And this pick like, like just there is in the crowd or something like that and without even thinking, he's just like still singing away pic goes, and he doesn't even think about IT. He just keeps on playing with one hand reaches behind himself unnecessarily twelve. This pic from the top knocker all the way down to the bottom to catch you off and keep going because he's just done in a million times. So like yeah like very Normal mastery yeah of stuff and that kind of the same as take the person that are going to date or employee to a restaurant to see how they treat the staff yeah it's what do people do in the beats in between yeah right it's not the big performance because that's dialed. It's what's the way that they put the jacket on before they walk out of the dressing .

room yeah one of the small wins the compound yeah you know I was thinking about IT. I think the the two point o level to be a person uh, that finds another high value one is not just being the one in the stands watching with that wild enthusiasm, but finding the thing that you can actually play in the game is supposed to be avoid in.

And so to your point um even if you're not the champion n bull hunter, that Cameron hanes being that person who sells and twists and prepares the boat for the champion is incredible to watch. Now, Cameron probably makes quite a bit more money, and perhaps is more physically fit than the other guy. And yet both things are enthralling cessile one hundred percent.

You know, I watched my father for many years. He's a long time hunter. Then he was the same. He get up every single weekend that he could at three in the morning, pack a bunch of stuff in order to drive three or four hours, hike a couple more hours to try to find an elk. And IT was like a joke amongst my mom's friends. Like, yeah, you going to go look for, you know, another look for days on end and then eventually one day shoot one and, uh and I remember when my father, I became like really close and I was a Young girl with with some cognition about IT. We would go hunting together and now my husband will say that I have quite good eyes.

So if there is game around and we're hunting, i'm usually the one that can spot first, because I have these raps with my father of watching movement across the landscape and in the way, like an animal, has a different shape that i'll never really find in nature, because there's often smooth lands on animals and on nature you find much more jacket, uh, as the norm. And so watching him for so many years do a thing that made no money whatsoever but him master IT in a way where he could spot in elk that nobody else in the entire, like a group, could spot, even when he was trying to show them. And he would have to shoot IT and down IT, before anybody else knew where I was, was so incredible to me from a Young age age and so joyful with no um there's nothing like he doesn't post an insurance, wouldn't be able to find my father anywhere he is not a show man and yet he did this thing to the best he possible could every single time because he had that obsession in love for IT.

And I think that's part of why, you know, him and my mother has been together for so many years. And I see the same thing with my husband. You know, when you find a partner who has that wild obsession and pursuit, IT is contagious and, you know, crisis of a purple belt, and we'll get off a flight and, you know, all go work because i'm accept with working is my favorite to do.

And he will go in the gym immediately, changes close, and go off to do that too, because he wants a pursuit of a black belt. And that is really, really cool to watch. And you know, a bunch of, we have a bunch of friends we both know who are famous humans.

They're not always attracted to like the other famous humans and their exact same crowd. You know joe rogan is attracted to Cameron hands yes because they both shoot um but also because he's like, well, this is a pursuit is just so fascinating and jose also interested in somebody like you who's just obser ssed with human psychology and frameworks. And so um maybe the the goal to finding an incredible partner whose top tear in some way they perform is just becoming in top here obsessed with something yourself that might be enough.

What was your insight about why you should get into rooms where your average tuesday is your best day?

Ah yeah, well, I think the easiest way to change behavior is to get around other people who already have the behavior you want Normalized, right? And so I will always joke with my trainer, like, is, is your six pack contagious? Like, can I just like, can IT rub off on me? And I remember one day he was like, yes, I like we explain how that works.

He was like, because if you hung out with me all the time, I don't drink. I'm up early. I work out every day.

I work out really hard if you saw my intensity level paired red with a Normal person's intensity level k years at the gym, you would probably, uh, up yours and I would just be natural actually, why I think group fitness is so important, especially for women who weren't a lot of us. You know, I was an athlete in college. I'm sorry, in high school, I didn't.

I wasn't athlete in college, but a lot of women, we didn't have that intensity and rained in us. You don't find women fighting a restless with kids until, you know we want some sort of outcome that wasn't Normalized. And so when IT comes to really intense work out sports, I tend to think women are Better off doing group classes because you see a bunch of other competitive people right next to you and you can up level, where is my husband and maybe you you know, he's in the gym.

He's just an animal. You nobody could be in there for weeks and he would act that way. And so that's why I believe you around other people who what you want just is there tuesday.

And what you've got from billion's, he spent a bit of time around wealthy people, what you know lots and lots of net worth combined in rooms that you ve stat in front of, like one of the biggest takeaway that .

you've had yeah um well, sort of a funny story. A one of the guys that is a billionaire also spent some time with word buffet, had a story about how he went to dinner with Warren and i'm a little bit of a Warren junkie that would be like the guy that if I got to meet, almost anybody else don't .

care about him yeah.

maybe I could be a third life because I um anyway so he goes to dinner was warrant and he's like I have four hundred questions for warm because i'm worth this and he's worth this and i'm all excited so I fly there and I go to sit down for dinner is like I couldn't ask him a question because he just kept asking me questions. All he did the whole time was picked my brain on what I thought here, what I thought there. He like I didn't even realize that until I laughed that he had basically gotten all this information for me.

I had gotten nothing. Yes.

and he's like, and so he's made a couple other people that know him too. And he's like the smartest, richest people I know ask the most questions and try to prove their intelligence the least because they know that the ones who collect the most knowledge have the biggest unfair vantage. And so I found that almost crossed the board.

That's interesting. What about the there's a lot of talk about the ethics or like that of in the billionaire ass. What's been your experience of that?

Obviously, we have real knowledge that there are billionaire that have done horrible things. And we've seen that the news of late. I do imagine a bit like the science fiction movies, where once you have a certain level of money, IT all becomes a power game and you lose a sense of reality for what is actually good, bad or otherwise, because you have an ability to actually control your entire environment and bend IT to your will.

And the more money you have, the more you can bend your environment to your will. It's just true. One thing's interesting. We have a friend of ours that runs family office and was a chief of staff for two.

And and I remember last time, sam, like what's going on with you, what we were doing and were explaining what we're build in in and you know what our goals were and kind of what our companies were worth. And he was like, I wish you not one dollar law than two hundred and ninety nine million dollars. I was like, that is such a weird number yeah .

like y two ninety nine.

And he is like, i've run a family office for multiple billion's, and I see right about that amount is when they start losing touch with reality. And when you lose touch with reality, you don't feel like you're a part of society. When you don't feel like a part of society, you start to become unhappy and you start to have really negative decision making.

And I thought that was really interesting. Now i'm willing to try to be worth over two hundred, nine and nine million. We could see what IT works a like for me. But I thought that was really, really intrigue. E Kevin .

kelley's got this piece of advice, you must try as hard as you can undergo circumstances to become a billionaire. Ah like he is.

I like Kevin Kelly.

凯文， Kevin. I really, really enjoyed my conversation that I had with him.

I love a thousand, two friends. I think that's true. But one thing I would say to get back to ethics, morals of billionaire for one second, I have found that the more people have and have created, the nice are more given they are. It's actually those who haven't created a on who are still living in scarcity that are nearly humans. And so what I find interesting is .

maybe they're some level or that changing le perhaps shoot you today the but this mark on my ARM here is I had covered last week and IT, but fucked me and I was winning to rogan the other day about the fact I did IT. And then his nurse showed up in my house today with an ivy bag filled with unpronounceable N A D vitamin. Be fast faded with some of the bullshit and SHE SAT there for two hours while this thing slowly went into my body. I was like, yeah, I feel I feel really good. And that was, you know, a very nice gesture from someone who didn't need to help.

That's not and and I find that really relay Normal. You know I actually asked a one of my my friends use more private as a billionaire IT and and you know I think a lot of IT is learned to behavior right after a while. You realize that to give to people who are givers and return just multiples back to you .

can somehow and so and then you .

learn that IT benefits you and then you getting grained into your action um which I find to be the same thing like IT brings me in a seen amount of joy to be able to help people except there's a little twins if they don't appreciate IT over the long term or if I don't feel them giving or paying IT forward. And so you know the other thing I guess with billion ares is they just think different and everybody at varying levels of income.

I mean, haven't you felt that like you're first when you first made your first thirty? K you're like, i'm so rich, i'm not sure about to buy. Then you make a hundred k you like, I feel pretty good.

I'm like you pretty well. Then you make two hundred and fifty. Can you like this is pretty good. I think around five hundred k uh, is where the real happiness to increase pass that tapers. And then about you know a million, ten million, there's not that much difference between the two.

And so as you get worth more and more, the only thing that really changes is that your world views so much bigger. And so instead of spending a watch a time on a thousand dollar problems or one hundred thousand lr problems, you just naturally gravitate to problems that will hit the level that you act. And so it's a huge unlock to be around more people who have more factor is a great study.

You would love this. I'll find IT. So I concerned IT to you afterwards, but basically showing that kids in a, excuse me, if this is incorrect, mini apple as neighborhood, let's say so, same society graphics of both groupings of kids.

But in one segment in neighborhood, where are there were only people of that socio demography, so lots of people that make below sixty thousand dollars here. And then one segment where they had a lot of, uh, interaction between those with wealth and those without wealth. Now the kids grow up in the same types of environments.

Their parents make the same amount monies. But this group interactions were rich people. This group interacts with less rich people. This group, on average makes thirty three percent more over their lifetime, which is astounding. All of being equal, if you are around people that make more money, you have the about, I think, to see what options really are. And so I think getting in rooms with people with big dollar amounts actually really, really important.

You had a contrary idea about whether or not you need to sleep on your couch in order to be successful.

Yeah, alex and I disagree on this one because he definitely .

did I think technically the gym floor for him yeah, but he he dreamed .

of a couch yeah and our other friend, andy, for sales the same. No, the best culture that i've ever seen is andy fersa. His company first form is is incredible to me. But he has a huge flag in his warehouse.

And the flag was representative of the exact size of his very first store that they opened, that they almost lost and when they grubbed on and the uh in the corner is a representative of the place that he used to sleep on the floor on this huge flag that's located in their warehouse. And so he also slept on the floor to become successful. And I commend the fuck out of people who have had those sleepless nights without mattress is I think there are a few humans that can actually persevere through that.

I think IT breaks a lot of people on the same vin. I think we don't have to have this hustle porn culture where we think that is what you have to be willing to do. And in fact, what if we gave people the allotment and the allowance that you could stay in your relatively comfortable nine to five and build up a business sim multi evensen? Or because i'm biased by a business simmun tanee sly and go from relatively comfortable nine to five to a slightly harder but more lucrative X, Y, Z whether to decide household start up or a business.

It's not going to be easy, but I do not think you have to sleep on floors to get success. And the reason I say that is because I worry about people taking a massive amount of risk um you know study show if you if your bank rut wants, it's incredibly hard for you to reach financial freedom again. You want to almost avoid bankrupt at all costs.

Most people never recover from IT. And if we know that to be true, do we play the edges to the excEllent humans like andy and alex until everybody to be like them? Look at the size of fucking and caps.

Look at the size of andy guns. Most people are never gonna those two people. And so we should allow them the ability to have massive success without the massive risk. And that's sort of my new answer point there.

That's interesting. You don't hear it's kind of survival bias. You just don't hear about how many people slept on the gym floor and then ended up having to sleep outside on the floor, right? You know, how many people end up going bankrupt, end up going into insolvency or administration for their business? Yeah, I did you ever .

have to say on the flow?

No, I didn't have to do. I mean, the worst that I ever got, I told this story before. The worst than I ever got was my placement year from university, and I was living in scotland.

So we run a, we had a franchise. When was nineteen? I picked up my first franchise for a night club arkle called carnage. And this was, you were A T shirt, and on the t shirt with the list of boys that you were going to go through in the attacks on the back, uh, like polder pig down, three drinks da blood.

This is a different era when we could you could do the sort of stuff and we would IT was a license to print money, is a license to print like very Normal amounts of money. But I was I was very reliable in terms of how is sold out. And the goal was to expand this into new cities.

So we put IT in newcastle, in my business point, to dominate, were very, very good at this. I was from middle Brown, fifty miles away. I knew that that was a shatter.

I thought that that would work well sharing if I did. It's full of Larry degenerates that that loved IT. And we had a great time.

I was really fun. Our placement is coming up from university, from a business degree and the owner of the franchise, the big dog. So like, why did you come work for me? You guys are already more fired up about work than you are about your business degrees.

Why not just like go full time in the thing that you are almost full time? And would this part time degree on the side and then go back to union? He didn't like that.

That works. So we move up to edinburgh. We move into this apartment, and we're in edinburgh for all of the summer. I'm going to the university of adam of a gym and walking down the royal mile in edinburgh of every single day, getting annoyed by french children who are after the eden retrench festival um and were driving around scotland we had sterling dendy glass go and edinburgh four cities plus newcastle and medals pro.

So it's like a pretty big net you know from dene down to newcastle is probably three hundred, three hundred and fifty miles, maybe too good distance anyway. So doing this little loop and we're be going to different places and dropping out fliers and making sure that the guessed staff in the selling that all of these things are occurring and the problem with events that you wanted get paid once have happened. And we were building up to this big, big, big chunk events, but we had no income coming in.

In the interview, and I needed to keep on getting our boss to send me money to be later deducted from our cut so that I can have petrol to drive to the places. And those are period where I was like, okay, I I actually don't have money to eat here. And I had a guy that came and stayed with me.

He was gonna help, and he came from a little bit more of A A like, nasty background. The mind is like, did I just go to steal some food from the store? I'm like, broke.

If I dissent to the point where I have to steal fucking food, like the guy that owns the company easily enough money, I can just get him to wire some cash. But that was, that was a prior. I remember I once went to go to see under oath, like a metal band.

I went to go and see them. I went from edinburgh, two glass, go to go and see under rowth play. And IT was, I knew that by doing that I couldn't drive my car like IT was the amount of fuel I had to get there and come back.

And I was I supposed to drive to work at whatever the next day I like each year. I'm gonna watch this band. So I drove that on my own watch the band, drove back on my own, got home and as, like, okay, i've got like fifty miles of field in the tank.

And that was IT. But IT wasn't destitute. That was a very short space of time.

And largely, I struggled three or four different industries. I'm going to be a DJ. I'm going to go full time with commercial modeling.

I am going to go continue to build the nightlife business. Then the podcast comes along and I just permitted me to kind of weather the storm very nicely. And I realized that I didn't want to do late nigh stuff.

Being a DJ is is fun from the outside, but kind of painful from the inside. The modeling stuff was depreciating asset, as you'd said early on. I go get a podcast that but yeah, by tinkering around gave me the options.

I remember when we first met, I didn't know your background or who you were. And so I was googling you because I have two bits.

My team, you remember those two and one of them, a crazy kid, and they are so excited to meet you and I was like, who is this guy? Like, what is, you know, Chris? What what a deal and and so as google, you like the first pictures come up with the like, like you shirtless, you know, like this from your, which I didn't even know what love .

island was shelter shelter life you've been really .

very um and I remember sort of laughing because I heard you speak and I was like what's not the same guy because we've got this really well spoke and jet who has like ABS all over there at what's going on here um and then and then like senior background. I think it's really interesting to see the couples together history that equate to something .

rather but that's .

how most people I mean, I was I thought that you went to university and you knew what you wanted, and then you went to your first job and then you climb the latter. And then you continued up the corporate sphere. And i'm probably one of the very few corporate people I am. I I was corporate for twelve years at big financial institutions and and finally had the balls but didn't have IT before to step out and and do things on my own. That's really rare uh, actually an entrepreneur ship.

And so i'm trying to speak to anybody in your audience who isn't that corporate position that they really hate that right now you're sitting they're thinking I am watching this clock tick from four fifty two to four fifty nine and IT feels like it's twelve years of my life and I am actively sitting here thinking I want to be closer to death just so that I can get up from this job and I want to reach that person and say, you don't have to have a wild origin story in order to be really successful. It's really wonderful if you have the David organs incredible background where you've overcome such strive to achieve success. But IT is actually not necessary.

Then you can create just as much of a hero story for yourself, having come from a ntini as you can have income from travesty. And most humans said they aren't getting that story because we want to idealize, which is actually great for the big, big out there. If you've had a huge difficulty, it's actually a superpower.

You just don't realize IT yet, but you don't need IT. You can still be wildly successful and interesting by just applying that. But maybe the only one thing I would asked european on, you know there's another guy that we know who has a podcast, and I remember who was asking me, like how to grow? How do I grow this podcast? You know, how do I get a bigger and and my I kind thought about IT for second.

I was like, there's a bunch of tactics I could tell you right now, but I think the most important task could be go and do something really interesting instead of just trying to go interview a bunch of people who are interesting and use their cloud to grow your podcast. Go do something wild. Go do you something interesting yourself, build something yourself, create some stories and then into the chaos, rena.

Um and I think a lot of people these days are missing that. That's why there's s push back to grows on social media and that's why most podcast only last seven episodes is because they think to do the thing, they just mimic the big interview in the humans. But there's a reason why you get interesting in podcast guests.

It's because you are uniquely interesting too. It's because you have crazy pictures of apps on the internet, your honor, reality T, V. show.

You've been in the ground of building businesses. You also have this weird sort of modern day stoicism philosophers aspect. And all of that together is package to human that is unique.

Chris Wilson, and so how can you allow yourself a little adventure that actually equals your success? But IT doesn't have to be tragedy. I don't think no.

I don't think so. I you are right. Trying to growth hack being is .

interesting .

is rough, and you're right as well. I think it's the reason why there is scepticism around gurus on the internet because IT seems like the story is fragile and if I hit IT with a strong and of hammer ital and the hope is almost in summer regards that I can shatter IT you know um this is why people I think are going after logan polls relationship amongst a whole host of other reasons.

One of them being that there's a skepticism around both his and his partners. Fidelity logan polls kind of portray is the king of the brows and his mrs. Has got a history as well.

And all right, like let's keep hitting this thing. I'm pretty sure that there's nothing there. Let's keep IT net.

I'm gonna keep pitting net and then maybe I can working this that's podcasts ers. You've got huge, huge platforms online. And this is many haters, as there are like, and critics and skeptics and stuff.

And all that they do is spend their time trying to find holes. And I think a big chunk of that is that they think maybe maybe there is something holo inside of that. If I keep waking IT enough and IT won't work, it'll break.

So yeah, I think we should be cautious of portraying like an inflated front. One of the ways that you can kind of protect yourself quite nicely against that, just as a Normal person you know, nobody likes someone who doesn't seem to have any vulnerabilities, doesn't seem to have any problems yeah exactly like. We bond with people over the floors as much as we bound bond with them over their success is.

But the flaws humanize them. If you've got someone and you're like at this guy, girl doesn't seem to struggle with anything. Sorry, what what i'm gonna ond with you over like what are you? Are you just a fucking you an equation? Who are you yeah ah and you can by wearing your weaknesses on your sleeve, not running with the victim mentality and not exposing them unnecessarily.

But you know, if someone asked today these people, please, the thing is like a revelation of ener than literally the last two weeks, right? So I right, I guess i'm part of the people, please, a club. And this is kind of a new thing for me to realize and learn about myself. And now I don't know, like those other people out there are people, places, and they think fact like that that maybe that's me too. So yeah, giving that gift of like self insight, I think is useful.

sure. why? So I think people really don't like seeing perfect people for whatever reason. I think that's a flaw we should work up that we should be thrilled if somebody seems to have all the things together that to me, i'd rather are on the side of optimism that somebody else could have those things.

And that means maybe I could do, you know, maybe I don't have everything right now, but maybe I could if this other human does. But I think, for instance, you there's a reason that characters are created when people have personas, and those characters are very thought fully. You know, maid, I always like talking about or talking about the rock because I think he seems like a good guy. And I also think he's much more crafted IT than people give him credit .

for the way he dresses.

you know, so as to not look too intimidating and also sort of like the people's chaf, which is what he calls himself, even the way he humanizes what he talked about, calling himself the people's jump, right? Um I think these these characters are created because we realized that nobody likes a glass house. We want to see if we can bring in.

And for for I am a little embarrassed because I couldn't stop watching the hole delenda a slogan pulping on twitter. I mean, I was like, would not my husband used to do that too? Guy, I going to watch the fight, whatever.

So when some of us, like the generate friends, sent me sort of the stuff they were doing back and forth, you know, I felt and in my oh my god, did you really say that what did compile? Oh, very great content, premium content. And yet, as I was watching at all, i'm like at the end of this, I have a feeling they're both kind of losing and I think they think they took IT like little too far.

They could have actually stopped at some point and um and then I just gets nearly and at the core of IT, I don't think humans or o as bad as we make them out to be. I think we like a little drama. We want to tear people down slightly but IT gets too far. We go ah this is gross I out here ah by and large and I think that's what happened with both of them you know and and yet, like for me on both sides, I just find IT so funny, like, who cares, who cares what these two humans that none of us know are doing on the internet? And why do we get so fixated on somebody else's life and projecting what we think should .

be right on them? One of the things that you don't see and you can't do IT if you're about to punch somebody else in the face, because that makes you seem like a coward IT makes you seem like you have limits. And the whole game of this is I have no limits, right? That's fundamentally I think what's happening, i'm prepared to go further than you.

I am prepared to be more ruthless than you. This is a great story of tyson fury. And I think IT was flamme click code and him, this is way before they were going to fight, maybe even yours before they were going to fight.

They were both in a sona together. And tyson fury, just silently, they had to promise to himself, he is like, i'm dying or he's leaving first. I'm going to die or he's going enter in there for lake, thirty minutes, forty minutes, fifty minutes forever.

However, along IT is class, go, gets up and goes music. A new I became a new I beating as soon as that would happened. So so you think wins the logan is really .

important question terms of the .

actual fight here and doesn't .

matter anymore.

does IT matter anymore what? I mean, they've both lost and we've all won so far. I really don't know dyan dan is has been fighting for a long time.

I've seen some footage you've hinting pads doesn't like good. Logan paul looks great at the moment, physical condition is fantastic, and he looks good hitting pads too but he's also, I think, never won a fight. I don't think he's ever actually won and diving definitely does seem quite come, let's say, dilling by decision.

wow. IT goes goes a distance. But it's ugly fight. It's both very bumbling. Nobody looks particularly slick, I would say logan, by knockout of Dylan by decision. I don't think Dylan is gonna call logged out because of the size difference.

But one of the other things that you see, right, they are talking about who's going to go further and the story of clinical and a time and fury, there is an amount of how far you go that actually becomes account to signal after a while. And what he teaches the world is, or you you kind of don't have any morals. There's nothing left.

There's no sacred grounds left, and this can be done from the receiver as well as the accuser, right? And this is what I meant on twitter. You never see anybody on twitter, which is critics of how many insults get thrown.

Run twitter. D and sub twit, no bullshit. You never see anyone on twitter to say reply and go you that out of order and you don't get to fucking say that don't talk to me like that. No one has ever replied with that on twitter, but you do that in person.

Someone like you and your partner and your partner actually decided to bring up that thing that they know I hurts you and you they promise that they wouldn't or it's just beyond the when you go go you don't get to talk about that, okay? Yeah like no one does that until IT. It's always a saic sotero reworking of what they actually said or it's a screen shot of what they lifted the other day or it's fucked and bullshit like what would have been an interesting strategy yet.

And again, IT IT doesn't work quite so well because if I go, you're bowing out. This is like complicity and encowardice and and weakness or whatever. But what would have been been an interesting strategy for a logan, at least to have done in this particular exchange would have been, we've gone europe ece of shit.

You don't get to talk about someone's free on say that way i'll see the fucking fight. Yeah right 对。 And you go oh, that's fucked in interesting right? And IT makes you look like the bigger man. Problem being all of these twists are like login is financially invested in like he's very, very incentivized in taking this over.

But yeah, how do you have not had that on the other side either? Have just been some like meaningless beef with no face punching at the end of IT? I would have been interested to see if you could have played IT in a more noble way. Yeah, I also .

thought about IT from the woman's perspective .

of fucking rough is mostly what I .

think rough. And also, what would you want your man to do if that was you in that situation? Very rough for them as as a couple, I think on either side, I cannot imagine.

I actually asked my husband I was like, what if that was music? God, 一个 just like a visceral reaction。 And we're very close and been married for a long time.

But that is like a primal instinct, I think, in men that we just have to be honest about. So that had to make for fun. Commerce station between the two of them. I don't wish anything on that. And on the other side, you know, there's part of me that I think would have said fucked the purse. Like why why are we continuing to engage with a person that's done this? And despite IT making you a ton of money, you know, is IT worth IT because her reputation has been severely beaten up and you'll have to come up with something really creative to turn that .

around if SHE care. Yeah, the rebrand of nina is going to be an interesting one. I don't know. I mean, we pray at the alter of status and prestige and money, and we'll do an awful lot to kind of get down.

Is part of that brand as well as part of that like turbo, alpha male much as mo, nothing can fuck with me. Do i'm untouchable again. You know if if I think he'd said something like like he doesn't care about you, this isn't going to be a big deal.

SHE thinks that you're like scum and you're despicable but like, he doesn't care about you. I like again, I may maybe that's the case. Maybe the whole relationship is like that but if you'd said like she's really been fucked in hurt by this like you've really heard like that that a headline like Dylan is is emotionally abusive to a girl that he's never spoken .

to one person, especially some of the stuff, just pictures of her with men and like, I mean.

fuck funny though.

Well, that is the problem. I was thought all of my, my, you gets friends, text messages and I D I, I was admittedly embarrassingly following IT for a period. But then I had to turn off because I got.

I thought I would Peter out member content diet, right? A migdol the fast food for the amiga ler all over again. Like what does that make you? He's another good way, right? When you watch your current content feed or create or not necessarily of choice, but like the algorithms create choice that it's feeding you, how do you feel? I call IT post content clarity.

How do you feel? G, well.

it's just like, are you do you want to ring your mom and tell that you meet a, do you wants to go outside and go for a nice walk, can be calm and look at the sky, or do you feel like the world out to get you and everything's point less and it's zero? Some dogging dog scarcity world mentality I want to think about some of the most popular channels and how they make me feel. They make me feel. Rubbish, after IT, I don't I don't like the person that I am, and I almost need to like acutely rehabilitate myself back into being the person I am after watching this content.

Well, especially something like, no, I I was talking to one of my friends, and immediately, you know what I think about. I imagine IT like if my attention span, or if my attention in focus is an apartment, let's say, I consider a pet house like this space in here is actually quite nice, and it's very expensive. And everything that I allow into that apartment is me airbnb and out i'm renting my mind out to these people.

And I have just given these two dudes, you know, this apartment for a week free. You know, they ve gotten this paint house level attention, which has some cost. And it's not been a benefit to me. So i've runned IT out to them for nothing and um and every time I rephrase that that way i'm like, oh yeah I I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't allow these type of people steal my attention for a week if my attention was an actual house in which I lived. And by the way, my brain, your brain is much more valuable than some airbnb pen house you could have and so um my mind always goes back to the new miracle calculus of what is IT costing you so you can feel that in your energy you can certainly feel IT in in your output, which I guess could be monetarily driven. But yeah, the end of IT I was just thinking, god is, do IT is to live in rap re in my mind.

for much too long as told my fault. Big hidden metric again. A I love contrarian thinking. I love your a news letter. Where should people go if they want .

to sign up to that? Thank you. It's contrary thinking that co fantastic.

And where you should they go? Follow the things .

that you do all the socials. Um we do a lot of youtube, we do A A lot of instagram. And yeah I hope they tell me if they end up a ba business such .

as what we talk about the most.