#696 - Dr Gabrielle Lyon - How To Build More Muscle & Supercharge Your Longevity
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Hello everybody, welcome back to the show. My guess today is doctor Gabriel line. She's a functional medicine physician and founder of the institute of muscle centric medicine. Most health advice focuses on shein excess weight.

But what if your longevity, health span, resilience and quality of life was more determined by gaining muscle than losing fat? This isn't a body builders coping strategy, its new signs backed by mountains of data. And today we get to go through IT. Expect to learn why the quality of your life is a direct correlation to your muscle health, whether it's more dangerous to be over fat or under muscle, whether exercise is more important than nutrition Gabrielle's favorite hacks for getting more protein in every day, whether protein timing even matters if it's possible to achieve this with a plant based diet, and much more. But now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome doctor Gabriel line.

You say the quality of your life is a direct correlation to your muscle health. why?

Because muscle is the organ of longevity, and your capacity to show up and execute anything and everything that you want in your life depends on your strength. And in order to build physical strength, IT requires mental strength. IT requires fortitude.

IT requires resiliency. And right now we have this conversation about longevity and health span. What does that actually mean? That actually released to the tangible plasticity of skeleton muscle? And by the way, you know, we were kind of joking around podcasts, ers and Austin. But when you think about skeletal muscle, you often think about bro science, you think about the big dudes skeletal muscle, so much more than that. And in fact, the health of your life depends on the health in the quality of your tissue.

Interesting, obviously, the by products of building muscle, discipline, resilience, being able to overcome hard things, consistency, motivation on itself forth, somebody quite easily could say, well, I get that with distance running. I get that with rowing. I get that with doing yoga. What is IT specifically about muscle building that is important for longevity?

Well, when you think about skeletons muscle, there's there's a couple of things that you have to think about. Skeletons muscle is the primary site for glucose disposal right now. If you look at the cdc and i'll give you a list of causes of death, it'll put cardiovascular disease, it'll put cancer, it'll put diabetes IT won't put obesity on there, and I won't put lack of skeletal muscle.

You also have alzheimer's. What you'll see is that these diseases at the root all have its place and sculpt muscle first. Informa, so if you care about any of the top, enter nine causes of death.

You have to care what's go to muscle. Now, what's the next level to that? Could in dance running be great? yes. Is amazing.

Is yoga great? sure. absolutely. You have to also train for strength and train for life, having skeletal muscles like your body armor. We've all had friends, family members that have gotten sick.

If they were amazing and enduring training, but had very little skeleton muscle, what is going to protect them in those moments of catboat crisis? So we don't age because we don't age linearly. It's not as if that is slow decline.

What happens is there is an insult and then there is a rapid decline. And then depending on your capacity to step back up is based on your ability to have healthy scutts on muscle. In part it's called the catboat crisis.

What what do you mean when you say insult catabolic crisis?

So for example of you fall and you're injured or you get sick and you have neuman ia for a week when you're Younger, your ability to get back up to baseline to be more physically active is more flexible as you age.

We've all seen IT as you age an individual um grandmother breaks ahead sh'll never be able to rise back up to her baseline level of functioning potentially SHE could but as he gets older, the ability to return to a more youthful baseline decreases. And that has to be trained for you have to be able to be strong. You do have to be able to build muscle and scuttled muscles.

interesting. The Scott muscle is a nutrient sensing organ. Skull muscles in organ system is a nutrient sensing organ system that senses the quality of the diet and specifically these a mino acid, specifically.

Lucy, i'm sure we'll get into IT, but that efficiency goes down as we if you train and eat and do the things you did in your youth you were not involved in um you know there's mental evolution. There's all kind of more esoteric evolution, but you also have to keep up with an involving physiological process and a biological process. And that's where focusing on hypocrisy and strength, obviously, they are not the same, but focusing on skeletons, muscle as a tissue as IT relate to medicine is para. So I .

understand definitely from the literal physical body army perspective, somebody falls if they have more muscle that is supporting around their joint. That means that there's gonna be less atrophy. IT means that going to be able to get back to function more quickly. But you went through this whole littery of other things like alzheimer's, parkinsons, you know, heart disease, talk to me about the mechanism of what having skeletal muscle is doing that help to mitigate the onset of that or delay what skills muscle doing to our health spent.

Well, can I start with this? A very short story, a very short story, to bring the listener. And because they are thinking to Chris, is jack, he's bringing in these .

tough, big to.

you've had stone effort, you've had Christmas, said people that I just know in love. Let's talk about muscle from a different perspective and I promise i'll make the story short. I did um my fellowship in nutritional sciences and Jerry rics and I did that in at wash you for those the listeners that don't know a very rigorous program, it's considered the harvard of the midwest.

It's bury chAllenging and I actually didn't want to do geriatric medicine. The deal was in order for me to study nutritional sciences and obesity medicine, I had to get funded. And the way that I was gna get funded was through Jerry atta training. So during the day I was working with individuals that were over the age of sixty five and they are the majority not healthy um on the alzheimer IT in nursing homes and of life palliatives care IT gets extremely ly depressing when you're seeing thirty patients today talking their families about what their wishes are except up right and I think any doctor would attest to that.

And then early mornings, you know, when you're a fellow, you have very minimal quality of life, especially if you're a combined research fellow waking up IT for all in the morning doing fat and muscle biopsies, and then in the evening doing cognitive testing. And I fell in love with one of the participants. And he was, in her mid fifties, a mama, three.

And SHE was, like so many women that we know he always put herself. Last SHE died, we watchers you name, he did everything, every single thing that we told her was the writing medel. I imagined her brain, and her brain looked like the beginning of an alzheimer brain.

And I realized that we failed her. We failed her. The medical community failed. And I couldn't stop thinking about IT. I needed to find a solution that how was IT that we were giving this information? And move more, eat less, follow a food guide pym's.

How are we not getting this together? What is happening? And then I started thinking, as i'm rounding in the nursing homes and i'm seeing these patients and i'm seeing them died, and i'm watching kind of this spectrum, and I realized that I wasn't that they were over fat IT, was that they were under muscled and that we have been trying to fix the wrong paradise for the last fifty years.

And that the diseases and the disease process that I was seeing in will call her Betty, was beginning in her thirties. Like this began in her thirties. And this constant iteration and plaza of information of focusing on what we have to lose, the quote, obesity epidemic, sound obesity, evident obesity is a symptom of unhealthy skettles muscle obesity.

And like you mentioned, alzheimer's, the things that ride along with IT have routine skeletal muscle decades and decades before they become an issue. And I wanted to frame that for you because that's what's critical to understand. We have a whole .

population .

focus on what they have to lose. We've over forty percent of the population focus on the wrong fit. We are setting themselves that.

We are setting them up for failure. It's not obesity problem. Skeletal muscle is at the core. Skeletal muscle, skeletal muscle, instant resistance.

There's some great data um that one of the hallmark studies came out of yale looking at eighteen year old in college students that had no outward signs of instant resistance when they became sedentary pathology in skeletons. Muscle starting skeletal muscle is a primary safe for glucose disposal. I know we ve got a lot of mutual friends when they're running and doing a million miles.

Skeletal muscle, where they're to put their carbo hydrates s is going to be so as like guage in skeletal muscle, people talk all about carbo hydrates tes. Nutrition is more electric than probably religion. Skeletal muscle is again the site of carbon hydroid disposal.

IT is a side of fat aid oxi ation we have forty million people on status s why not focus on the how to skeletons muscle prior we have um of medical dro density in skilton muscle when skeletal muscle contracts IT releases myo kind skeletons muscle is an indecent organ system interfaces with brain for neo genesis you name IT scout to muscle interfaces with the immune system and in multiple different ways IT releases in other than six which is a milking the most famous one also releases glutamine contracting skeleton also releases gloomy which directly feed lymphatic tes sales of the immunity stem so if we are truly going to change the paradigm of health, we have to frame the question correctly. So that's what skeletons muscle does. And then of course, you look at naked and all the other dating things that you talking about. There's all that other stuff OK. So there's look good naked and then be strong and capable an age well and be able to do the things that you love so that you can show up for the life that you've created in a strong and capable way.

I often think about my kind of heritage training in my twenties and how I was eighteen years old. And I got to the center of a sporting excEllence at newcastle university. And I was, I think I was about sixty three key los, which is just not heavy and built to be very small and built to be very, very slight.

And I remember the first dave is about two and half years later. I hit seventy kilos. Like I am massive ah now I walk around IT like a apporte eighty eight and I like god, I wish I was seven, was so much easier to move around around seventy.

But I think about the fact that the reason I started training, because I want you to be more attractive to goals than I wanted to feel more powerful. I wanted to look and feel like a man, right? Even though you've still got the body, if you're like actio phy, kind of guy, eighteen years old, you've still got the body of a teenager, you don't have the body of a man.

And I didn't want that I wanted to change, but it's kind of like come for the game, stay for the longevity, right? That you arrive because of how IT makes you look and how other people respond to you and the progress that you see in the error. But IT seems, as you're saying here, that downstream from this, the benefits that you get from a physiological perspective, from a longevity health span perspective, A A pretty drastic.

So if it's the case, right, if there is an unseen mechanism which we could be using a pathway physiologically. Which would be mitigate people from getting ill and help us to defeat disease more effectively and blow off glue coast and and improve into the sensitivity. All of the things that you ve just listed.

Why is IT the case that there is such an obsession with BMI, with losing weight, with reducing fine? I spoke to sten effort. Sten effort said on this very podcast he was talking about the pivot between um moving from sugar to a spartel h asp on diet drinks.

He said what people don't consider is the sheer impact of the weight loss itself will be so beneficial that any increase that you are concerned, even other concerned about, like asp, is is like eight thousand cocks a day to have to drink in order of you to hit some sort of threshold that be dangerous. Even him, the strongest body builder on the planet, was telling me weight loss is very important. So I talk to me about this relationship between obesity, like being over fat and under muscle, as you call IT. Like what's this relationship? Where is that important and what what kind of gets me off in this conversation?

Well, first thing I think it's really important to recognize is that we don't directly measure scuttles muscle mass routinely. Again, this flies in the face of, have we been asking the correct question? And in my mind, the answers.

No, we use dex a, which is a dual x ray. We've all heard of dex a, and that actually measures a bone and fat. And then there's lean body mass. And lean body mass includes everything we've been directly measuring, ata post tissue and bone, but not skeletal muscle, first inform us.

So we have to recognize that when we talk about Scott to muscle, when we talk about how much we haven't had a consistent way of looking at IT just won that in which we will eventually. So there's uh, something called d three creating which will eventually come out. It's a tag, is a deterred creating tag.

You'll take a pill, you'll be able to p on the stick and see how much muscats you. But up until that point, CT MRI or not really feasible for everybody to be doing and especially tracking over time. So the big the big picture is we haven't been directly measure in scuttling muscle mass.

We have estimations at best. Secondly, we measure body fat because that seems to be at a certain level. We know that, that can cause implications, whether it's thirty percent or more body.

We know that there is an increasing inflation tion potentially trigger size hypertension, a exedra that is important to know. But again, this just goes in the way of thinking, of looking at that. Wait until the problem comes.

And we know that this is the problem. There is data to support that is actually IT is the loss of skeletons, muscle verses, the increase in body fact that may be more detrimental. And again, um I think that we're going to start to seeing emergence of more data as we begin to directly measure skeletal muscle. But you will see that the survivability of an individual, they will have a greater survivability, a more healthy skills, muscle mass they have.

do you know, whatever is fifty percent of americans are obese, maybe more than fifty seven of americans are obese or overweight. Presumably someone has to Carry around that much surplus fat has to, if you were to lean them out, they must have an OK bit of muscle underneath, is not the way .

that works well in the data as they have more muscle. And i'm so glad you brought this up. Have you ever had a rib mistake times? Have you ever had a fully, yes, okay. And individuals that have obesity, not all of them.

But typically what happens as you get fat infiltrated into skettle muscle intermix are fat while an individual may have more muscle IT talks of nothing about the quality of that tissue. E, you want your tissue to look like a flay and actually when we talk about python gy of tissue, what skeleton muscle really requires is flux. IT requires activity.

IT requires stimulation. Not just walking. I mean, walking is great but people are are saying i'll just walk do that. It's not Frankly enough um but it's that flux that utilization of packaging fatty acid are used primarily by skeletal muscle rest, which is interesting. The health of skeletal muscle is determined by its activity while an individual could be obese and have potentially more muscle. One has to ask the question is that healthy .

skeletons on muscle? That's interesting. Yeah because I remember seeing this. It's an illustration of A A Normal sized person and a really, really overweight person, and it's an x ray of the inside. Then when you see that the bones that both people's bodies are scared LED by are exactly the same, and yet you look at the amount of mass that is scaffolded upon them, and you go, wow, that is crazy to think that somebody that, you know, five hundred pounds or six hundred pounds is only being held up by the same butros that a personal one hundred twenty pounds is.

Yeah, yeah. And and I think what's so fascinating is that IT goes to the the point that this is very plastic tissue. You can change, IT is very applied, and you literally can add mask to an organ system in a healthy way. Last time I tried, you can't grow your labor and not talking about alcohol, but by attention and awareness, you can make very specific changes that have a measurable outcome. And fifty, and by the way, Chris, fifty percent of americans don't exercise.

explain, given that we know, however, many percent of people are overweighed on. And so for what's the stats, when you look at IT from your lens, right, the brose lens, what is IT? What is that the people are or are not doing when IT comes to protein intake, resistance training, muscle mass, a grip strength, ability to pick something up is IT like some ungodliness tage of fathers can't lift a daughter after four years old or something.

Yeah, I mean, well, I think that you're changing the conversation because your guests are all in order to be a guest on your show, you have to be at least two hundred and fifty pounds least be um so I appreciate you having me on because I am substantially left. It's dead.

Lift is dead after numbers you've got IT wrong IT was add two hundred and ounds not be two hundred and .

one pert perfect um so fifty percent of americans don't exercise. You are not exactly sure why, but the reality is one hundred percent of people eat. If I were to say which is going to have a bigger impact on skeletal muscle health, IT would be training the influence of exercise and its effect on all of the homeostatic mechanisms in the body is profound.

IT influences every organ system. However, you could go your whole life without exercising. And we're not saying that that's healthy, but you essentially could.

One hundred percent of people have to eat, and you really must begin to pay attention to this, especially as you age and the human bodies totally flexible. You talk to stand hill a certain way. You talk to Chris delhi a certain way.

The human body is amazing. The question becomes, what is the ultimate outcome they are looking for? And from my perspective, my perspective of muscle tric medicine, skettles muscle is the pennacook .

of health and well being. Muscle central medicine.

I live yeah so that I point that in two thousand and fifteen and began to develop IT and not something that .

we teach other providers. Very good thing. I think I read in your book something about the relationship between a mother's fitness and the health of her children.

Yes, ladies train, women need to train, and you need to also continue your activity while pregnant. You're not just departing and deploying behaviors, but there is some epigenetic change. The healthier and more fit the mother is Better than offspring will be.

Wow, yet what what's the thirty thousand foot view of, uh, training while pregnant?

Well, first of all, they say continue to do what you do. There's a very little data in literature on training while pregnant. I can tell you what I did, and I can tell you what I tell my patients to do throughout my pregNancy.

I song kettle bell. I lifted heavy things. I wasn't trying to do a one, right, max, but I was incredibly active, by the way. I also had hyper maces gravity. Do you know what that is?

That sounds like some egyptian farrow. No.

something that you will never experience and think, goodness, it's basically where you're throwing up all day on. I mean, that is good. IT is aggressive.

IT is a something that they don't sell you on pregNancy in the beginning. But number one, you have to understand that you're going to feel bad, so you mind as well. Train, anyway, I felt terrible. I would swing catboat for up, swing caliber for up. And I was the site to see man, when I went in the gym, instead of having a water bottle.

I had like a and just the word.

yeah. I think they lost a lot of gym memberships.

I bet they did. Doctor of the fast side hearing everyone. So is there anything other any movements, uh, intensity levels that you would say there's a girl that's listening or a guy that's having a kid with her? It's like, darling, don't do what like don't try pull sumo. I don't know like if there's something that you would try to avoid people from doing and .

then to but I mean, pends, they'll say that um activity and walking and moving and lifting will actually can induce labor later on. Obviously, people have to figure out how what's going with their pregNancy and what their individual provider recommends. But listen, giving birth is like a sport. So doing squad, doing those things, it's very difficult to dead lift pregnant and swing cannabis. But you should be able to Carry, you should be able to move um and again, IT just depends on the individual, but my best advice is befit going into pregnant y and continue IT.

Is there anything that you've looked at to do with dad? fatlings? Let's say that there's a guy girl who want to get pregnant. A bunch of my friends have had they call IT conception moons, which is kind of like a baby moon.

But if before it's like like we're gonna go, one of one of them was really, really came to give his daughter a french names. I went to bodo in an attempt to conceive. Didn't happen, and pretty sure happened when they were on in nh. Ville or something on the way back.

the kid rock.

So what about for dads? I've heard a lot of my friends will go like, um darling, in the diet, adJusting these sorts of things. Is there anything that you've seen for improving fertility, improving the quality of absorb for men?

Yeah, certainly diet plays a role. Diet plays a role in fertility. And this this is also muli factory orals not one thing you can't just have a good diet and all of us and your um you don't even know your your children's named like that is not happening.

But I would would say that the obvious would be have a good diet, half hods at a rich in zink and proteins. The other thing that I would say is we do know that the Better body composition in individual has the Better there sperm, potentially the health of their sperm is resistance training is plays a role in that. The other aspect that I will say, because i'm a physician, is limit or in coming.

I don't know if you pretty that so a selective estrogen receptor modulator, very safe. It's been used for quite some time. It's typically used in women, but we use IT a lot for men um and it's IT can help improve .

sperm volume. How long can guys run and cloathes for before you get before you would start to be like time to back IT off? Now you could .

the way that there's there's multiple ways in which, uh, you could run IT, but we run IT for will run IT for twenty five days on and five is off and we could run IT for every day. So my husband actually, I don't know to notice, but my husband was a CEO for ten years and now is a neurology resident. So he works at bailer, and he's in urology, which is where men's health was born.

So lip shoots, and you heard of lip holts. No, what you gonna get him on or more had Carry. These guys are major in android.

Gy, these were the guys that created, you know, where we talk about T, R, T. These are the guys I created this medical practice. And I, I could say really an appropriate .

when I OK right. So in your opinion, is exercise more important than nutrition?

yes. I mean, do I have to pick one?

You got to prioritize .

one hundred percent of people eat. So get that right.

It's interesting to me to think about this pivot now from what has been quite obsessive diet culture for forty years. Thirty years.

something at least .

you are now thinking, well, what are the reasons why? What are the reasons why the diet culture is so much more fervent and religious, as you mentioned, compared with training culture like the five by five and the five three one and the G V T. And the push pool legs and the five day split guys friend drilling IT out on the internet, the only people that they all hate together across fitters, right? So that's fine.

But it's very interesting to me and I wonder whether this will become a battleground as more people plan to flag because they're very passionate about my training. Modality is an important part of who I am as a person, and it's, I think, a big chunk of the nutrition of argument comes from moment, like a fear of death. A lot of people that are into this are doing IT because they want to improve their health sand, improve their longevity.

And me attacking your approach when IT comes to a nutrition foundation is kind of the same as me saying you think you're going to take a long time, but you're not. And I know that you're not. So IT hits very, very deep. And I don't know what the people have that same amount of existential attachment to their training modality. But if what you're saying here, muscle centered medicine continues to grow as IT as been, it's gonna get to the stage where you are going to have religious fights over what split should we do?

You're absolutely right. And I think that is interesting when you think about training and you think about nutrition. Part of the reason why people, again, this, just my opinion, are so at odds with each other is because they're unaware of the lens at which they're viewing something through.

It's almost as if they're ponds. So if you look back at the history, let's say you look back at the history of nutritional sciences, which, by the way, isn't that old. You look back at the history, and after the great depression, moving into world war I, when the backs americans of acts were against the wall, and we're going to lose the country, they drafted the first million men, and the first million men were unfit for war.

Thirty eight percent, i'm sorry, thirty eight percent of the first million drafted were unfit for war. They said things like they had club muscles. They had poor eyesight because of vitamin a.

They did any teeth, obviously because of the great depression. There was a lot of underneath shed. This became a real threat.

This was the first time that the U. S. Really identified that nutrition was a real threat.

They issued, uh, series of, I don't want to see propaganda, but a way of educating and what they issued was in one hand they said, are you going to support uncle sam? And in order to support uncle sam, here's what you're going to do and what they said was you're going to eat high quality proteins are going to liver and eggs and beef and dairy because you need to have strong muscles. This is a night.

This is an authorities, no idea. They said you're going to minimize process foods and you're going to eat fruits and vegetables and even have some like, I was like, sodium electricity, say, I was really shocked and when I saw that part and then they said, are you gonna a help piller and and they showed an individual who was skinny and scri. And here, here is the way you're going to have pillar.

You're going to nazi high quality protest. You're going to eat process foods, you're going to eat White bread. In the forties, they establish these guidelines and they started this whole campaign about how we could be stronger and more capable and viBrant and courageous, and that's what we needed. Then obviously, all these high quality foods were shipped to overseas to the soldiers they started to um for need increasing process foods.

You have severed ter ground and john kilos severed ter ground was a minister I don't know if you ve heard of him but he was kind of the move that the godfather of this, what do you call vegan movement and he started to talk about the idea that in order to be a moral person, you needed to reduce any kind of animal products. You couldn't drink, you shouldn't have sex, should eat very plainly. And he got a really influence to follower. And that was a colleague who then made granola and a gram cracker.

And how much legitimacy the around the canoe origin, trying to soil the man, cook them into the tests on, give me you put you ten foil head on and let's go.

let's go. I I went. I wasn't around at that time. I wasn't there, but I think what happened was there was an early recognition that high quality foods were imperative to help them on this. And when we're going to lose the country, this became a high priority.

Then obviously, we have a nation to feed and ultimately a global, a global industry and just a global feeding zone, right? We have to do those things, progress foods, which are under two different jurisdictions and commodities. And these whole foods require money.

They get money. They make money. Whoever has the money controls the narrative. So whatever the agenda is, whoever has the most fortitude behind that gets to control the narrative.

And this is kind of circling back to the question of, why is IT so crazy? I wake up and I choose violence, Chris. I post something and I go home and I cannot wait, and I have to do IT. So we talked offline before. And if you have a certain skills set and you have a responsibility to show that, is that true?

I think so.

I've been a physician since since two thousand and six. I've seen a lot of life and i've seen a lot of that. And so why I even started talking about this is because I saw so much misinformation. And here I am as a geriatrician at the bedside of like, oh, signing this death certificate and then this death certificate and all these people are talking about how, you know, going planned race is going to save the world and all these other B S. And not thinking about, uh, how that is going to influence the midlife people and what that end result is going .

to be what is the impact of going plant based on people that are no longer twenty three.

I think that we are going to see an epidemic of us, your process and have never seen before .

what is for people.

uh, circle inie is a loss of skeleton mass and function. And as your processes bon density and could you be Young and plant, could you get all the protein again? N this is a very just like a very small perspective, this idea that plant and animal foods, that is all just about protein.

Protein we talk about generically, but protein, that's twenty different mino assets, nine of which are a central those nine and central, those are individual nutrients. These things are not in are changeable. We are not just talking about dietary protein.

We are talking about food as a food matrix and the things that write along with IT. For example, if you're eating high quality protein, you're getting creating, you're getting carney, you're getting touring, you're getting and syrian high between iron. These things are necessary for Young children and women.

And as you age is not like your appetite increases, the lower your quality of protein, the lower your diet is. And protein, the higher IT needs to be animal based because you're not just eating for dietary protein, you're eating for other countries. And so what do I think you could be plant based and healthy? I think that you can I think that the body is very adopt table.

I think we're going to start to see um ways in which maybe they got microbes on plays a role. But do I think this is an ideal diet for an aging individual? Absolutely not. And this is this experience .

looking at the the way to improve your body composition. What are the principles of optimizing body composition in your opinion?

Well, nobody likes to hear this, but you track your money and you track your speed, right? Say, yes, Chris, sometimes monday once is in british. You got to track your food is just a reality.

I know you wanted, do intuit eating. I'm sorry, guys, just get a sense of what you're actually doing and it's annoying. But if you have goals and you know that you need to hit those, you have to the track.

okay, what is your i'm going to stop you and get tactical each step of the way. What is the most seamless way that you have found to track food? Because it's not my fitness pal, and I will fight you if you say so.

So what I do is different than what I think is the easiest thing.

right? What's the easiest .

thing like chronometer just an up ick.

What's your favorite?

What do you tell your client to use crone's? why? Because IT has just like nearly everything in there, all these different nutrients. Again, typically the label only has thirteen different countries.

Is that is chron y to the one where you can take a picture of your food, or you can speech IT in and say, like one slice of toast with three eggs, hard boil. Ba laa.

well, again, I haven't been using IT because I didn't.

I didn't tell you what I do. Tapped the IT .

is called the pending paper.

E oh, no.

Are you the me you talking about? You can write IT and then you can look at IT. I'm old score.

yes. okay. So I write IT down, but then I .

know exactly what i'm doing. And also, by the way, my food diversity is not huge and you're going to be talking to our good friend, bajas coolen. I want you to ask him what he had for lunch three weeks ago on a wednesday. He'll be only tell you.

is that because it's the same thing that you have for lunch every other day?

Yep, consistency. So once you know what you're doing, then like smooth sale.

well, I mean, this was what A A really interesting insight from alex homos y he says that most people work really hard at trying to alter their diet and alter their calorie intake and stuff. But really, your diet isn't a diet is probably five meals that you've got in the locker that you eat very, very regularly. And it's a case of just nudging these five meals, right, getting rid of one in time. Okay, I don't do the bolic need anymore because IT turns out that i'm an addict for cheese and that cheese is making IT to two thousand, two hundred calories.

right? It's not that complicated. But if you were to go on social media, you spend at least six months in paralysis.

right? So what doesn't get many, what doesn't get measured, doesn't get managed. So you need to be measuring the food.

do you taking me at first, at first and i'm gona walk you through um and I actually talk about this in my book for ever strong. No, we haven't really mentioned, but I wrote this book for ever strong so that I could be something applicable for everybody. You literally can read IT IT talks about the history.

I know that you read IT um and it's you know evident space is an evidence space manual and when you think about how you put together a diet, it's quite simple. What I recommend and what the data with support is point seven grams of protein per pound body way or a deal body way if you want to go higher. So simple. So you are what eighty .

eight one 7？

Call me one OK one and you're happy with that way. Feel great. yeah. I I should recover.

Uh, I need to lose a bit way. I actually did a dex A A fountain life and dollars a few months ago. And IT came back back at nineteen and a half percent.

And like that, if i'm nineteen and a half percent, i'm the leaners lucki don't know where this weights gone. It's like all in my all in my fut or something ah. And then when I do in an electro sis, i'm much closer to kind of thirteen and a half or so. I don't know where the I don't know whether the deck or was having an ough day yeah .

clearly clearly having enough day. That's interesting. And then you'll be interesting to see as you track your skeletons muscle but again, this we we have to understand that that is, uh do we know your optimal skeletal muscle? I would take you down. So, yeah, one eighty.

So I think I I try to hit one eighty. I tried to give one gramp around. But it's hard. It's hard. Why is IT so hard for me to hit high volume protein?

You not hungry. The body, you not hungry. So digging protein number one, I I wanna mention something that I think often gets overlooked as we talk about what mr.

Neutrino is. That protein need is really the only macronutrient, the changes as you age, the intake or need of carbon hydrates. And facts like who cares doesn't actually change. But the biological and physiological processes of the body require more protein as you age, more protein as you go through if you have a catalog crisis, or if you're going through cancer or or if you get burned, no other micro nutrient d changes in that way. So we have to get the story of dietary protein right.

We just, we have to, because IT is the most effective macc ro neutral when IT comes from, when IT comes to body recomposition, when IT comes, when IT comes a flight recomposition, when IT comes to understanding that each of these amino assets have diverse biological rules. Again, we are talking about dietary protein. But if we look at these other minal assets, like three, in training is essential for music production.

In the guy trip to found is important and essential for serotonin production. Fantine is critical for dopamine production. Lucy is critical for m to signal, which is important for a muscle protein synthesis.

So we talk about protein, about what we really are talking about, are these individual nutrient needs, which, by the way, I think that that is the next indication of the protein conversation, is really looking at these limiting amino acid. But I am aggressing, so I gonna go circle back to the point seven to one ground per pound, ideal body way. Everybody who does that, in my opinion, is going to do Better.

When IT comes to people who say, doc alliance, that sounds great, but I get to nineteen grams of protein a day and i'm just sick. What do you advise your clients? What are your best hacks for increasing that protein intake? Other any recipes, any food types and you give to people, well, the question is .

why are they really struggling to get that IT is very social, does uh influence G L P and P Y Y got hormones. The question is why are they so full? Is IT because potentially their metabolic theyve had some kind of adaptive thema genesis? Or is IT that they just turn how to protein appetites of?

The first thing that we do is we get a sense of what their total calories are. That's the first thing that you need to do. You have to know what you are.

interesting. Again, like you said, what you measure changes tracks a understanding that hitting that first meal of the day and hiding IT early on. Again, a lot of people talk about faster and pushing that faster window later.

I think that there is something to be said for eating after you are coming out of an overnight fast, your muscle is prime to be stimulated, weather an hour to two hours after you wake up, and then stopping eating later on, so you begin to retrain your body through feeding patterns. The fastest way to increase dietary protein would be a protein shake, whether it's a way protein shake that's my favorite, or even a way concentrate. So IT doesn't have to mean isole concentrate.

Concentrate has a unal globulin like to fairing alpaca album other again, thinking about food more than just a macro nutrient, I think of the old school way and know that we could he stand about this, who's kind of evolved more into the more neutral dance foods. But the old schoolhouse is just thinking about the macuto ans. The new schoolhouse is thinking about the other low molecular rate molecules and things like emphasize and and other compounds that have metabolic properties new to other international properties.

One of the things that I used to do was I got into fasting when David, since life came on the scene, probably five years ago ish, I want to go out to see me in boston and he tells me all of this amazing student know I still think there's a lot of there there with you. But I noticed that my composition suffered. I didn't.

I felt soft. I I looked soft at comparatively. Um and one of the other thing I ve been through every Brown signs diet I did cob backloaded, then I went into cob night then I did skip loading to step.

I never heard p log .

p free through week and then on a sunday eat as many cups as possible IT is advised to trying to have a full box of cereal just for breakfast and IT was like, if you can get yourself to like a kilo of carbs by the end of the day that was considered a win. Um and just every single different one. What I realized was I kind of indicated this um sacrifice reward dynamic.

I often cheat. If I am going to cheat on my dad, i'll do in the evening time, very rally in the morning. I think this is quite common.

How many people are picking up a mose first thing in the morning, but there maybe do on the evening. The world powers depleted. They are in the house, whatever, whatever. But my sleep is really, really negatively impacted when I eat, even within two and a half hours of going to bed, which is awful, because out here and all, son never wants to go to generate eight to clock night. I might write OK but by the time I finished eating, that's nine which means that I can maybe get some good sleep by midnight and it's a tuesday right? So yeah I i'm i'm coming round to the idea that um still you know have the window if you want to like sixteen native that's what you like the sound of like you know even in one hundred and six but I think that pivoting that window a little bit earlier and then trying to maybe cut off calories at six P M at night, something like that sounds like a sounds like a pretty good way to start.

I think IT is a great way to start. And then understanding the next microinsurance an that I think about is well before I said that, I number one, the data supports that the twenty four hour dietary protein intake is most important meaning um how much protein do you have during the day right within a twenty four hour period? I would say that protein distribution matters and there is uh kind of two schools of thought.

One is that just make sure that you're getting in all in IT doesn't matter how you do IT. I would say if you believe that, then you wouldn't believe any meal distribution study or any study that indicates muscle proteins. And this is happens because IT happens at that first meal for the all the majority of the literature that i've ever seen, it's always about this first meal, which in my mind means that a meal distribution matters is not just about this twenty four hour period where you're just having one meter day.

So for the listener who's thinking, gosh, you know they're thinking two things right now. They're thinking, does Chris really have one thousand percent body fat? And then the second thing that they're thinking is, well, how I actually going to move the middle if I wanted lose weight.

And I would say, obviously, you figure out your clerk a intake. I talk about that the book, there's it's just super easy. It's a calculator. And then you begin to segment out how you are going to injustice tary protein. I won't go above fifty grams per meal. Know for someone like you, i'd probably hit forty to fifty at that first meal for sure is not very much data for that middle meal. And then potentially that last meal, probably closer again, forty to fifty.

forty to fifty grams of protein in the food is a massive amount. I get a very, very large amount of me.

That's it's like two two groups of way protein. Oh.

that's true if you are looking to do IT through supplements. But if you are looking to do IT, let's say that we're having IT through salmon or we're having IT through, uh, eggs and know how many what's an egg eight?

Eight eggs? That would be six? Yes, six eggs to be about thirty grams .

when you six ex is no joke, okay? And you brush past this, forcing fifty grams approached six gg, so it's five, five grams per egg ish, right? Okay, so you you're talking about ten eggs. Ten eggs is a lot of eggs.

Better get started.

And so IT seems, but this is my point, right? You look at this plate and I think even for me now, I see now in myself, my god, every single I think you did instagram, you didn't instagram post about this, right? You hate your protein. You hate your protein goals for the day. And then you really over tomorrow.

I have an amazing team that makes me, uh, they tell me I am more related if I look like an ask.

yeah.

how's that going? Is so terrible. But yes, this is you are not alone in that.

Now i'm going to chAllenge you, Austin. So we live in houston. I have been down to Austin and have a lot of restaurants.

I cannot believe. I mean, they have have a lot of restaurants. You go and you order. And one of those restaurants, a like flay. And this, my friend, is your eight ounce to lay that true and not true.

What time? seven? I mean, you're getting almost sixty grams of protein and a tiny little late that you spent seven, five dollars on taking me done.

Fair enough. I I should go for fly more on first thing in the morning. okay? So we are making sure that we measure because that's the only way that we can manage. We are prioritizing protein within a twenty four hour window.

We're aiming for no point seven grams per pound of body weight or ideal body weight were also then considering that there is a little bit of protein timing going on here in that much more than about forty to fifty grams of protein in any one meal is probably going to to be a little bit wasted, presumably from an efficiency perspective. But just i'm pretty sure stand taught me under twenty grams, under twenty fifteen, twenty to fifteen grams IT can actually be meta lizer in a different way. So it's like the sweet spot appears to be more than twenty, less than fifty.

something like that. Yes, I would say that that that is right when you're getting below twenty again, you you you're not eating that Lucy threshold and Lucy is one of the associate mino acids is that branch chain mino acid. And uh, my mentor of twenty years was the guy who put the science behind a lot of the um literature that we stand on today, this idea of protein doing, this idea of meal threshold.

This was some of his work that he put out into the world, which is incredible to see this innovation before they knew that Lucy somehow stimulated muscle, but he really connected the dots and then translated IT over to humans um and this idea that something below a Lucy threshold to the average loosing threshold, foreigners to underground, by the way, the R D, A. For for Lucy. And we'll talk about this in another podcast is between two and three for the whole day. But the actual are the actual uh, influence and more optimal amount is two to three grounds of losing per meal .

is an imbaLance here between what is being recommended and what is optimal. I mean.

the ageing populations of fastest growing population, I was just looking at data earlier um but so the idea of the twenty grams or less is IT IT will get counted towards calories, but it's not gonna do anything for muscle in that way.

okay. So just round out the timing thing, which I think some people will be considering because everyone likes to obsess ve a stuff that doesn't really be matter, is the big hammer mover of this not less than twenty, not more than fifty spread IT out over. You know, no one's eating less than like a hundred grams, no matter how slight you are.

Therefore, you need at least three males a day. Are you bothered at all about a post exercise window? No.

no, there are. I think that is a beneficial I would say that the literature would say, no, it's as long as you're eating that protein doesn't have to be right after you train IT doesn't I will say, could there possibly be some benefit eating after you? If you are untrained and you train and then you are older and you are prioritizing protein, would your body be primed for a bit more efficiency? Quite possibly.

Could I get a lot of push back on the scientist from the scientist in that? Yes, it's something that I was having a conversation about this morning and from the literature, they would say, is really not great data that. The post exercise window is helpful. My argument would be, well, there's probably a place for IT probably .

just seems like this bigger, this bigger fish to fry here totally.

totally. And the yes, you have to protect body composition at all costs. We have to stop focusing on what we have to lose, and we really have to hold in on what we have to gain.

What are we mentioned earlier on that your body is the average of the five most common meals that you cook? Um why never never .

heard that .

I just made IT that's why what are your most eaten meal prep? Like what what has most of your body been built on over the last few decades? Do you think .

are eggs fertitta key? Beef, dairy? I'm actually a lower fat person and then I I don't agree .

with high fat t ee that my body really doesn't like .

that I don't do well on that. And then adding a lot of Anthony ance some mackie berry, which is that really rich purple color um and I just try to add in um whether it's blue l gy span, I try to add in really colorful things.

why?

Because I think that there are biochemical properties in them that I can we just there so many, we just haven't gone .

to IT cool. Okay, what about super foods? If you were to rank order, you want to get the best yeah, a protein profile. You want to get the best nutritional profile while getting protein in what your top five. Well, before I enter .

this to have to actually eat IT.

no. But if you take if IT takes discussing, then IT doesn't count. So yeah, maybe, but not for you for person al personal .

test um liver is disgusting, but IT is so high in nutrition um women that are emc individuals that need vitamin that terrible vitals. Liver is amazing, amazing iron source .

once two ounces a day.

I mean I whatever you can stomach without throwing up, holding your nose, eating IT, however you have to do IT.

I think it's valuable, I would think.

Tactical.

i've a hack for, I ve a hack for IT salt the living shit out of IT when it's frozen throat in an asia for two minutes either side and IT doesn't really takes like liver anymore.

Probit probes like cardboard.

two minutes I decide, you crazy, you're crazy. You, you crazy. Lady, okay, okay. So live is first, but you've got an issue with that. You're bited bited against the liver.

okay. So what's second on a lean beef? Lean beef is amazing.

Again, why? Because IT has creatine and syrian tory iron zc selenium. These are all by available a vitamin minerals, really important. So that would be my next one.

What cuts would you .

be looking at? I don't actually care. So I get really lean cuts. I I get IT from buff cow. Have ever seen peed montes cow?

Yeah, i'm i'm sponde by peg month. Yeah.

that great sponsor me. Come on guys.

I try. I try you to the guys. I've got an entire freezer filled with peed montes, and that literally had some file before I came in.

but only but how many answers?

A two, eight five there.

So, um lean beef is amazing. The next thing that I would say with the next super food from a by available source of protein could be eggs. Eggs is great and way protein also great.

But again, we concentrate again. Chicken, I don't even bunch of chicken. Salmon is good for a mega three fatty acids. But IT is a little on the fatal side. And over time, you do, if to worry about mercury, we test out of my clinic, you do have to worry about some heavy metals and and two of those .

kinds things one of the things that always feels like A A rate limiting step on salmon for me is I I really struggled make good salmon at home like it's kind of it's just not even throw a stake in the air fire IT comes out. You get IT wrong by five minutes. I decide it's still able you you throw salmon in a frying pan and cafe red like a small baby chick.

And IT just ends ends up optimizing itself all over the kitchen. It's it's very easy to get wrong and um that just limit time. I check I can eat time in at home. I like IT when I go out for food, but I think it's it's like rough to to train, make good a hope.

I would agree. I would totally agree. So basically we've covered holder know I needed lean beef, peed monkeys choose above cow eggs, way and salmon so I hit my five.

That's good. That's good work. okay. Far in up talk to me about the relationship of sleep and muscle building of what we're going on here yeah .

there's um I actually just interviewed doctor Emily Lance on my podcast and SHE is out of the galvin group. She's scientists out of the galveston group. And one of the the studies actually worked on was that was looking at sleep in muscle protein synthesis, sleep one night of sleep deprivation can suppress muscle protein synthesis is by eighteen percent, can you imagine cumulative over time? That's not good.

That's my life. That's me. That's that's a club promotive for decade in a half.

Yeah yes. And I will say one of the other things that we see. So muscle protein syntheses, on one hand, is suppressed.

But there is some data coming out that if you are sleep prive, then kicking up training. So like the military personnel, they go through four days or five days of how week. I should know this because i've never heard the end of the winter hell week. It's just you know write exactly like that hard um but there is some evidence to support that training during that time. During IT, a time of sleep approval can help support the tissue, which makes perfect sense that can mitigate some of the effects from lack of sleep.

So we hear about you know, downstream, some of the concerns that people have around you are more likely to like salty foods, are more likely to reach for highly processed foods, more irritable or a will power all the rest that stuff.

But what you're talking about here is a much more direct mechanism from even if you go full beds, colleen, and and wrangle your whilst wer and you don't eat the cookie and you do the thing, you are still creating a glass ceiling on your ability to build muscle just based on how much time you have to sleep and no amount of breath work or meditation or like Richard hipp is going to be able to get you past that. So yeah, I think I mean, just it's just another another reminder that everybody is probably forgetting. And again, I we're getting tactical on this way.

I quite like the fact that we're doing this. You need to try eight sleep track, whether it's an eight sleep mattress, whether it's a woop, whether it's an ordering. Obviously, we use woop.

That would be great because I think that there are an awesome partner. But the main thing that you learn when you use a sleep tracking is you are not sleeping anywhere near as much as you think you are like that. I can save you from having to buy one, right? It's great if you do IT, and it's important to learn this lesson first hand.

But the lesson that you learn as soon as you start using a fitness trackers, oh, I thought I was getting eight hours of sleep, but IT turns out I was actually in bed for seven hours forty five, and my active sleep was six hours twenty. Oh, fuck like, that's that's the realization. That's what you spend most of your time.

And now for me, even if I don't have this on, I know i'm like, lucky, I need eight hours sleep. I got to be in bed for nine hours like I have to, even if I tried, cracked my sleep efficiency as best as possible. Bit of latency, bit of lost sleep efficiency.

Some microwave ens. Start the night. It's like, guess what? It's to hit.

And by the way, in no fence to the sleeping ing is out. Their sleep is annoying. There's a lot of other things that I would rather be doing. Sleeping IT is right. But I will tell you that in when I was a fellow and we were in the memory and aging clinic, one of the risk factors for alzheimer's, as we always asked about sleep deprivation over time. Because when you sleep, this is when the brain cleans itself, these glial cells, that, and actually living with a phone by your head.

you mean anyone? No one in my audience still has the phone in the bedroom. Carry out. No.

not one first.

I know no one at all, or else they are no longer allowed to listen. okay. So when we're looking at this sort of relationship, sleep to a muscle building, is there anything else I want to get on to training? But before we get into that, we've talked about diet. We have talked about recovery. Is that anything else we're missing in kind of the middle you that is life beyond now training stimulus?

I think the big picture is eating whole foods. IT doesn't have to be complicated. IT should be high protein.

From my perspective, there's no reason that when you have the luxury to eat that way you don't IT is a luxury and a privilege to be able to prioritize data protein. Other countries don't at that. And IT is a highly nutrient dense source of um calories and non negotiable, especially as individuals age. You know when you had mentioned that when you were really into fasting and and you are reducing food, didn't take that that um IT just IT may not be an ideal mechanism.

And I was fluffy.

We don't want you fluffy or just ruin your image.

so not supposed to be fucked in nineteen and a half percent body that compared according to the dexia scan .

and that would ruin your different least a week.

I, I I think I need I think I need to go on a slight here's a point. Here's a question of how in my head, actually, there is somebody is listening who is both over fat and under muscle, right? There is someone who just doesn't have the body composition that they want, and they know that they are off on both .

ends of the scale.

If IT was me not knowing your world, what I would do for me is I would probably die myself down, because i'm going to get the aesthetics wake quicker by becoming leaner first, which I can crack out in the space of six months, and then building my muscle up from there.

But what would you do? What what would your advice be? Would you just try recover through everything? Like how do you go about this? Because motivation is going to be engaged as much by the mirror as IT is probably by anything else. So we need to sociate that in people.

Yeah, if I were me, I would focus on what I have to gain versus what I have to lose. If I had very little muscle and a lot of body fat, then for my perspective, I would not actually be focused on anything aesthetic. I would assume that I was not as strong as I should be and not as physically capable as I needed to be.

I would focus primarily on being a human that was physically strong. And i'm not thinking necessarily training for strength, but maybe with training for some strength in some hypothesis. Y, but I would just start putting in the wraps.

I would start putting in the reps. I would obviously see what my baseline died is prioritized. Dietary puting is very difficult to store protein that it's very difficult, like you said, you're like egg to ninety grounds.

If I have one more bust cow, i'm going to shoot myself. IT becomes very difficult to over eat dietary protein, and there may be some impact on this adaptive thermogenesis. You know, the bodies very smart. If you start reducing calories to rapidly, the body will adjust.

But dietary protein, and for my perspective, one of the reasons why IT has this more thermic effective food thermic effective feeding is that um it's so valuable and IT does stimulate muscle protein synthesis that that the machinery of that may take more energy than the energy required to utilize carbo hydrates could be ten percent. Fats could be five percent and and protein could be anywhere between fifteen and twenty percent, again, depending on the study that you look at. And foods are not just primarily one thing.

If you are an individual who needs to lose weight and build muscle, could you do both at the same time? You could would IT be as effective? No, I would say you start with what you have to lose, because that is what you have to gain, because that individual didn't get there by focusing on what they had to gain.

I guarantee you they have spent a lifetime yoo dating or having some feeling of just, you know, IT doesn't feel good in your body if you're not feeling well. I I think that we can all agree on that potentially. Yes, I don't know. This is me.

This is what I would do. I think that i'd like you framing around, people are told that there is something that they have to lose IT all about getting rid, getting rid, getting now out of this body. And IT really is, if I can, empty building mentality within your physiology.

And I don't think that that is particularly constructive. okay. So we've dances around IT, right? We've got all of the things in place, but we actually need to go out there and build some muscle. Now we need some you need some training stimulus if you only had ten exercises for the rest of time to build and maintain as much muscle as you could, what would they be in? why?

IT seems like a lot. I would definitely do a squad, right? I would do A Y, S. I won lower, uh, a lower, lower on my back, a wider stands just because, um yes, so I would definitely do a squad.

X, Y, Y, Y squad.

just my philology, just away and built. O, K, O, K, we are built. So I actually decided, decide. Note that IT was a great idea to do a fifty hour event that was nonstop.

And so as I was training for that, I torn my hamstring of evolved IT, around eighty seven percent of the bone. This is a really wasn't my smartest decision. yeah.

So it's it's been this process of a repair. What should you say that? So i've had to modify some of my training.

So a squad, a wider stand squad, some kind of dead lift, whether it's a suo dead lift or some kind of dead left, because just the mechanics and also the full body, a movement of a squad. I would also say, a farmer caring, we have to also begin to choose. And this is what I think about.

This is, I think about all the older patients that i've seen being able to Carry groceries, being able to Carry a toda er, being able to, it's, it's amazing when we think about traveling. Know, I travel a lot. I SE have two very little kids. I have a two year old and a four year old. If you want some birth control, I will send them right over to the house and you you'll see, you know be careful, you will hear people say I be careful about putting over had you the weight limit can see this and it's just a whole backwards way of thinking about IT no, no, no you are afraid to then go to the gym and lift fifty pound uh wait, but you will have no trouble lifting your or struggling to lift your fifty pound total era to put them exelon, whatever you're putting them.

why? Given the fact that you've already got a good bit of middle line activation with your squad and especially with your dead lift, plus you've got grip work with your dead lift, what are you getting out of the farmers Carry that you haven't activated already? Well, you're getting .

motion and you're getting something that translate tes to real life. It's you know, when we are if we're really talking about health span, we have to talk about the things that will destroy health span and the reasons why we require help. Why do we go into nursing home?

What are the things that really affects quality of life? The number one thing that affects quality of life is physical mobility, in my opinion. And i've seen this. So not being able to care magin, not being able to climb up upstairs, not being able to Carry your groceries, not being able to put them up. I mean, I was just traveling here to lost vegas, and there was a couple in front of me that couldn't put their luggage on their Carriers.

on the, no, no. What I was like, do I help them?

Do I help them? But if I help them, they're never .

gonna now. So you watch this person struggle with a one red mix hand luggage Carry.

I really. But no, because if that is the one moment they're going to be able to pick something up and move in a rotational way to put in there, which is how we move home.

Boys, grandads got domes for the next two weeks because you didn't help him move. Is fifteen pounds suitcase? Okay, three. We've got a squad bubbled back, squad low moment ARM White stands, a dead lift and a farmers Carry what's next.

So the exercise, I think that this is not necessarily we lifting exercise, so we specify, but doing some kind of an interval on in the salt break or an airline being able to push out above a ninety percent year two max, just really hitting IT. You prove to yourself you can do IT IT feels awful. But IT is a way to improve instant sensitivity, is extremely effective.

And I I really do think that as we are training in the gym, it's not just about the machines, it's not just about the bans, but it's about being fit and capable for real life. It's true. God for bit is an emergency. You bit be able to show up and be .

a capable human. This this is, you know, I think Peter, he is biggest flex from a training perspective at the moment of his kind of biggest subsection, sion when I spoke to Milly this year, and he's saying in a year two max is one of the best predicts that we have of someone's longevity.

And I like what I thought I was also to I thought IT was all to do with resting heart rate and variability and blood cydonia and galvanic skin response is like this, straight up. V O two max. what? U V O two max. So that that was surprising to me to hear that.

And I do you think that we are I think there is um someone of a discrepancy in the literature when IT comes to muscle mass and strength right now, people will say strength matters and muscle mass. It's not about the actual mass. It's really about the strength.

I think that we are at the precipice of literature changing as we begin to directly measure skull tin muscle mass through some of these you know more advanced ways like this death creating. And I think that that may chAllenge right now if your two maxes is the greatest predict. I think we're also going to see um a change in the literature when IT comes to muscle size and strength. Think of that is going to be next and I I yet so I i'll say that no.

just that it's interesting how there are theories about the way the way that the human body works, but we don't have the measuring tools to be able to make that happen yet. So what we do is we find proxies for that. Strange is pretty good proxy for muscle mass.

There's very few people that are very strong without being at least a little bit muscle. But once the genuine mechanism that's going on here is that the the only thing that we can measure actually is hand grip or bench pressure. Ge.

what's I actually had conversation with, I work with a um A H. D. Her name is alex.

Is coin did her P. H. prince? She's now at pen.

She's really helped with the institute of muscle central medicine and we weren't going back. And for the about grip strength. Th, I think that again, this is another Chris. My perspective is just because something is spoken about over and over and over, gun doesn't make IT true IT doesn't mean that we're looking at from the right perspective. And yes, we could say grip strength is a biomarker, but if we take a step back, we have to ask ourselves, um are we potentially born with a certain threshold for grip strength?

Th, is that really the and of bial? Are we sure that that's true? And the next layer to that just goes in line with when we're talking about skeletons, muscles or and we're talking about vio to not expect, again, that's because perhaps we've had the tools to measure IT and then bring to the conversation, which is often missed, is that we don't highlight the things that we're doing well and started we highlighting things that we are potentially doing well without the insight potentially of things that we're not and the oversight and um just measuring in disease.

What is your favourite evidence based protocol on an add on a salt bike for improving vio two max? Um great question.

I actually work with the trainer. I don't do any other protocols myself.

What does he make you do?

Carless Carlos is a major assets on the worst. I mean, so friday, rip. Before I left, we just did max effort. IT was IT was twenty seconds, all our effort trying to push me above or two ninety ninety percent and then he would give me ten second rest. So I don't know that .

I felt like so I like IT to about a style thing but holding IT for like doing IT in thirty second people. How many rounds you do?

He only have made to three minutes and god.

yeah that's still that's six rounds right enough to kill you okay cool. Uh so you've got only four .

things what anything else so um we said a squad, we said a dead lift suman dela for me we said a uh, Carry. I definitely think that you should be able to do an overhead Carry. I think that you should be strong and an overall position even though obviously it's probably not totally stable for the reason that I just like i'd like to see you able to do that over time.

Um I also think being able to do things like push ups getting off the floor, you have to be able to do pushups, you have to be able to develop that upper body shrink um austerity, what else what else do I think is an unnegotiable? I mean, I think a turkish get up is great, takes coordination IT, takes capacity, you have to get baLance. And then gonna Peterson would say every out you have to add in something rotational. So any rotational, whether it's a swing or something rotational, he said, was to throw .

punches at at the bag, something like that. Yeah, I in the floor of his interesting, you ve brought up two things that get you down to the ground with the push up, and then specifically turkish get up, which are thinking about earlier.

Iron Alexander from the line podcast has he is one of these huge proponents of sitting desks, right? So a floor desk and I have in the other house through that I have this tiny little, what? Look, I think it's meant for japanese calligraphy.

So I think it's meant for when you're SAT doing your fancy japanese like penmanship or something. And i've got varying heights of meditation cushion behind IT. And his whole thing is, get yourself down on the ground, spend an hour, half an hour, hour a day with your hit below your knees, if you can. And I have to say, sitting down there feels so nice, like group meet opens all of that out when I get into that kind of ross legged position. And you can lift your hips up and actually leaning forward, which feels really lovely on your lower back that feels like a kinda compresses a little bit like it's so nice like all of that really, really good so I am in i'm down for ground .

stuff yeah um I sounds very interesting. I cannot wait to see that .

and it's to I mean .

remaining its .

remaining private that if I went full Austin psychiatric promote, I wouldn't be at a standing desk, I would be on the floor and I would, I would be like toiling what is like a fucking ie waska stick. Yes, between my things, while i'm doing IT OK, let's say you've got three more, three more things that you can introduce.

Um I do think again again, we talked about how we would use a grip strength. So you know you're developing grip strength, you're developing you are being able to Carry. I don't know what we talk about the swing, but I do you think that you should be able to swing, you should be able to do some kind of dynamic movements?

Think that that is important. Again, how do you translate these things to real life? A turkish get up to, we have squad, uh super dead lift, we have a throw up on the devils tricycle, we have um some kind of push up, right pushing up after off the ground. We have um cable swing.

my Carry .

armer Carry where else I know, see you give me ten. And then you .

you might feel heath wanted fill. Heath wanted eleven. And bomb stead also like role desires at me, only giving intent. So you've got bags of spec capacity and .

you need today. I.

where are we going to get where we gonna jacked arms from?

I was actually thinking that, and you said that your question was that you could only do for the rest of .

time to build and maintain as much muscle as you could. What would they be? Maybe, maybe I would be tempted to maybe throwing some sort of pull up. I haven't got we haven't got much of that scapular attractions, I guess, in the dead to lie, in the dead left.

we have OK fair.

fair. Cough .

raises. If alex homo's .

was here, he would say cough raises because he calls, he keeps on texting me and telling me that cuffs at the front godden of the of the body. I'm like at best at the backyard, right at best at the backyard. They're not even on the front of your body.

You got wait. By the way, women don't care about that.

He would say that because you seen my cps, that's what he would say. I know that he would. He would say, what about what about these coves? And I would say that to backyard but okay, yeah, cool.

I think I was really interesting. I'm loving asking this question to pretty much all of the health fit people that I speak to. It's really indicative of where they're coming from, from a health and fitness perspective.

You know it's obviously you've got that like sort of geriatric care background because you're thinking training for life, right? Like no one else is said, oh, you, i'd love to put the farmers Carry on because like, so what like I just presume that my my dad left or like my row or something is going to be able to get me through the Carrying side, you know, that control atrial moving thing, that being able to stabilize the trunk while the hips move underneath you, I think that's really important. So yeah, we ve ended up I think we've got like maybe a library of eighty exercises. Now you're the first person in all of them that hasn't said dumbbells side natural raises, but um that's .

a that's okay um but I will see my perspective comes from you know I talk about I do my training is a geriatrician, but my patient population we take care of Ellie war fighters. My patient population is we service elite war fighters and like CEO mather, guys that are just super physically fit.

And then I would say I an I don't know what all of them are doing, but I would say the majority of them have a lot of well round of training programs, right? And my perspective is, as a mom, I have two little children. Can you imagine if I went down to pick one up, and once pissing on the wall, the other one seeing something out, I to grab the other one, I have to be able to move fast enough so my new jobs don't get around.

That's obviously the priority when IT comes to a tempo rerating es set ranges. What are people getting wrong in your opinion?

I think there now first of all, there is a phenomenal paper and that I think that anyone who is really interested in these this repetition continuum, the paper is called loading recommendations for muscle strength hyperdrive py hopefully gett right local enduring a reexamination of the continual repetition or the repetition .

continuum very, very sexy title for paper, please translate .

amazing and really basically um IT highlights that we've got this strength hypothesi in dance that we've really put things into buckets and that maybe the evidence doesn't support that, that there are multiple ways to get stimulus. So what do I think that people are getting wrong potentially that you know, if you're just going eight to twelve reps, maybe that's just hypocrisy. For older individuals, they potentially could do lighter weights and go for a longer and still get hyper trip, influence。 So I think that this rap range continuum uh could be reexamined .

OK what what's what's your thoughts on a part time and .

attention.

temple stuff.

all valuable and always to change up your training program because what you're looking for is really a physiological adaptation, right? Is multiple ways to get that multiple ways to improve muscle hyperdrive phy and strength. And so what you're looking for is where your stimulus is and where you need to potentially push on the lever to improve.

In my mind, again, as a physical, you do have to track improvements. It's not just that you're tracking your, whatever you're eating your bee for twinkies or exaggerated， do have to track wait the same way. I think a baseline recommended.

You know, in my book, I I want people to know how many wish of seeking there. This morning I did six hundred push PS here in vagus. Working out with ben newman is a terrible idea. Why six hundred?

why? Stupid number? Too many.

I said, I, I, I wasn't once, but I have .

one less said have you have you thought about doing fewer?

Yeah exactly and by the way, they all did probably more than I did um but again, so that's the number one thing I think people are getting wrong is that it's either and I used to say, you know my own personal belief is that you have to work really hard and that's just a belief that's not necessarily in the evidence. I think that there's something to be said.

There is evidence to support this idea that the um the influence, what you are doing, whether you are lifting light, whether you are lifting heavy, that the molecular influence is somewhat different, right? And that that makes sense. But my belief had always been that you should train harder and that was the only way to do IT and that is not necessarily what the evident supports, which is disappointing by the people that .

want to punish h themselves with six hundred per ups on the morning in vegas. Now IT is, I can see why that would be like a personal insult. When IT comes to people tracking their sets and tracking their workouts, there is not called heavy set, which is by far the most seamless and least intrusive of the workout.

Tracking things that i've ever found is phenomenal. IT links up, I don't have one, but IT links up with the rapper watch. I can track tonight.

I can track progression. IT can you can work in supersets and drop sets and rests, pores and mayor reps and all sorts of other craziness. And it'll tell you what your proposed one rep max is based on all of the calculations.

It's really good. And I think that might be even be free if you don't need to use anything fancy that heavy said it's definitely available for U. S.

IT. Might be available brand as well. What else? What what? Given this global perspective of stop focusing on fat, stop focusing on muscle, these are the principles from a dietary perspective.

These are the principle ples from a training steaming the perspective. Sleep is important. Is there anything else that we're missing from this time?

I I wanna point something out because it's important for the conversation. We've talked about skeletons, muscle. We've talked about nutrition influence in skeleton, a muscle.

We've talked about the history. We've talked about exercise. I would say that a lot of people will recognize these things as important.

Contracting skeletons. Muscle releases mio kinds. Mio kinds are hormones.

They are molecules that are released from contracting skeletons. muscle. There are six hundred and more. The first mile kind, I think, was discovered in two thousand by patterson in copenhagen. This is not that old.

And I just wanted reframe the conversation into, what does that mean from a muscle centric medicine perspective? In medicine perspective, contracting skettles muscle. We've all heard about these sidek inds cito kinds like look in six look and fifteen and a side kind storm.

You know, IT had its moment. Exercising skills to muscle. The degree which you are exercising will influence the amount of illusion six. And in lucan, fifteen that went released from skeletal muscle interfaces with the body differently than those interactions that are released from macropha ors. So there is A A, A blunting effect from an inflamed tion standpoint, which I think is important to point out.

Why is that important?

Because it's leveraging skeletal muscle tissue that you have conscious control over to augment your immune system and to augment your inflammatory response.

So say something that you can do consciously that is going to tap into a system which is largely run on autopilot.

Yes, yes. And contracting skeletal muscle releases glutamine gloomy as a semi essential mean to ask that you know the requirements depending on if you're on stress or are highly out about state exedra. But contracting skeletal muscle when IT is when IT releases glueing.

Glutamine serves as a fuel source for lymph sites, White blood cells. So doing an action consciously mean you can't tell your heart, I don't know you live in awesome n there might be people that could tell their heart tube pump at a certain rate. But for the most part, in lesser wm, hf, you're probably going to have a difficult time telling an organ system to do just the thing.

The only thing that you have that kind of control over. So this influence of contracting skeletal muscle, we talked about alzheimer mera IT releases B D N F in irish and captain b, which stimulate b DNF release in the brain, which help with neurogenesis with brain function. This is critical in changing the conversation of muscle as IT is thought of in this way of looking good naked and and A A training all important and the only things that we have actionable control over but also reframing the conversation from an immune perspective, from um a perspective as an indecent organ. Really, really critical.

very interesting. Yeah, I am. I'm gonna be i'm going to be watching carefully guess over the next few years to see if the the pivot does happen.

IT IT seems like diet culture, which is what IT is currently, right? It's diet culture is very ingrained. It's the dominant ideology for improving fitness and improving health.

And I suppose you know, if you were to take somebody that is however many hundred pounds and get them to lose thirty percent of body mass like that, a lot of their outcomes are massively going to improve. But I would guess that for a lot of the people that are listening to this podcast are actually thinking, okay, like. I understand that that's important and you know like a charitable able, as I want to remind people, whole foods and do all the rest of IT. But like, okay, like what's the what's the next step? What's getting yourself maybe from fifty to seventy or from ninety to ninety five?

Yeah.

yeah. I I onder I wonder how much of this muscle scanted medicine is going to be something what I mean, like I say, the benefits are massive because it's one of the few things that you can do that is hard, that is immediately gratifying of in the short to medium term is gratifying and also has long term health impact. And you can't say that for many other training modalities.

You know, you get really great at rolling. You don't look that different. You may feel great. And you know the metrics on your woop say, oh, while arresting heart rates in the forties, but really, you know, if you train push per legs for six months and you eat point seven grams per pound of body weight in protein, you look words apart if you're someone who's even like up to a property, pretty well done traina, right? Like if you've been training for even a while and you stick to that, you're going to look great. So yeah, you have the opportunity to kind of come for the gains and stay for the longevity. I think that I think it's A A relatively easy sell.

I I think it's an easy cell. And i'll tell you some, you know, one of the the aspects of being a physician is, and I see this all the time, is that a good physician recognizes patterns of diseases, right? A good physician, that is your job, that is your craft.

You need to be able to recognize patterns of illness. And effective physician, an effective physician, recognizes patterns of people. And that is how you move the middle.

We can talk about all of this stuff, but the reality is there are certain archetypes of individuals. And one thing that I will tell you is that individuals must feel worthy of doing the thing that is going to move the needle. There is a self worthiness thresh hold that people have.

They will only ever be as fit and lose s as much weight or gain as much muscle if they start to feel too good or look too good. It's a whole listening of, do I deserve this? Do I feel worthy of this? Can I really have these things? And I have been a practicing physician for a very long time.

And then the second layer to that is understanding that you have to close the gap. You show me who you are today and the habits you are doing today. I can tell you, I can tell you a handful things.

Number one, I can tell you how successful you are. There is a spectrum and an archetype of innovators and and mavericks and CEO archetypes. I can tell you, based on your habits, where you land on that spectrum.

Number two, the actions that you take now in your head and wells today, I can tell you what your life will look like in the future. Your present is your future, especially from a health perspective. An individual that moves the needle has to be aware of their weaknesses.

We are in a culture where is, where is all about? What are your strength and how are you doing? And you're so amazing.

I don't care anything about that. I need to know where you fail, where you fall off. And you have to know that because it's predictable every tea, every single time, for example, every time.

Chris, I bet you if you did not mitigate when you did those live events, you probably if you were not aware that at the peak of that event, there was going to be a component of vulnerability right after you would fall after nutrition plan, you would have felt a little depressed and you would have stop training. Did that happen? Or did you mitigate that?

Yeah, we worked around IT.

You work around IT. You planned for IT. You probably went in with a more neutral mindset, thinking this might go well, this might not.

This is my first thing. This is so cool. You neutralize IT. IT wasn't that big video and again, i'm putting words in your mouth. I don't know. Neutralize, you must be able to close the gap between who you want to be your future yourself and who are the actual actions that you are taking because time is limited and if you continue to do the same thing, then you have to fast board, and the pain of failure over everything else is more effective in moving a patient to action.

You said in A A different interview, I heard you say, if you think you don't have time for fitness, how are you going to have time for sickness? And I think that's a, that's a good way to look at that. Everybody is busy.

Everybody has lots of things to do. Everyone has more emails once than time to complete the workout. But yeah, I feel that doctor gary online, ladies and gentleman, where should people go? They want to keep up today with your work. They want to check out the new book. Why would you send them on the internet?

Well, you can go to my website, doctor Gabriel line dot com, and you can find all our offerings there. I also have a podcast the doctor can rely on, show, which i've been trying to get you on. Chis, I don't know, at least like six months i'm going to convince you, i'll see I bring you like some photos, whatever.

Um you can also get my book on amazon. It's called forever strong depending on when this comes out. And I have a great news letter. I put IT out a ton of free content, youtube, and I have a full practice. We have a team so people can check out my website.

Hi, yeah, Gabriel, I appreciate you. Thank you.

thank.

you.