#715 - Louise Perry - Are Women Actually Happy With Modern Dating?
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Hello, friends, welcome back to the show. My guess today is Louis Perry. She's a writer, press officer for the campaign. We can't consent to this and an author.

Young women have been through turmoil over the last fifty years with their entry into the workforce in muncie, tion from the kitchen and greater of freedom and independence. You might think they would ve got everything they want out of life. But unfortunately, the reality may be less.

Rose expect to learn why forty percent of Young adults say that marriage has outlived its usefulness, why Younger generations see relationships in T. V. Shows as an unnecessary edition, whether women are actually happy with the modern culture around sex, what the fall out of the meet too movement has been, why Young women are unhappier on average compared to previous generations, and much more.

Louis is great. He was on for her first book, the case against the sexual revolution, and he is working on a new one. So she'll be back on next year to talk about that too.

But in the meantime, this is a good fix of her work. I think that he is a very important voice. I think that SHE is a lovely, baLanced redress to a lot of the problems that we are seeing, which lagging people's mental health and the way that they relate to the world. So yeah, sit back and enjoy this one. But now, ladies and gentleman, please welcome Louis Perry.

There's a wall street journal column about marriage as a mirror of human nature that says forty percent of Young adults say marriage has outlived its usefulness. But things, things going on.

I mean, i'm not surprised because these are Young adults have like, I think so I think in london now and this will be true and lots of parts of the west um about half of kids will reach your fifty, not living with biological father half. So I guess these Young people just look around in the light. Well, it's like evident to me the marriage and .

working mary ever stats got this idea about a motherhood and family knife as a memetic desire that the death of mothers and families causes fewer people to see them, which causes fewer people to want them, which causes fewer people to to.

I think that's definitely true. And you can see that in dage actually with like if your sister or your close friend has a baby, you are more likely to have a baby in the year or two following and vice versa. So if if the people around you are not having children, your less like this had children yourself.

I think and that's I think that's so interesting because there's always been this assumption by demographers, up until birthrates started really crashing in recent decades, that people would just spontaneously decide once they had access to contraction of whatever, to have two point one kids, that that was like the natural settling point for the human species, that we all, we all reach them, we just stay there. And that clearly not true because so many countries now a falling way below replacement. And I think it's because actually there's no law of nature that says that people should want table one kids.

People look around them. And I, I OK. Everyone here has one or zero or six. And then that becomes, as he say, the mesa dei. I think that becomes what's considered Normal. And humans are completely obsessed with what's Normal, which is why I am just generally quite, generally quite skeptical of the idea of if people having this like absolute agency or ups yet. I mean, we do clearly have we do clearly have free well, but I think that what we consider to be desirable, Normal, the life time plate is so incredibly dependent on other people around the thing, which is, I think, exactly why we've got into this down spiral of fatalities.

This um I love your analogy of your conception of prediction ness and licentiousness that we kind of flip flat between the two. Which one do you think we're .

in now a licentious transitioning to petitioners? OK.

Is this like the pari pl equivalent of the hard man? Create strong time as we men, weak time, at .

least women, great. yeah. right. OK, okay. yeah. Maybe I mean, I think it's kind of natural to have I think that's always a bit of a roller coast within culture because you reach a point where um you know whatever particular excess becomes obvious and then people start quietly thinking, hang on, I don't really like this and then some people start saying loudly, I don't like this and then you know everyone kind of joins in, you know, so on forever through history.

What's different about this? One of courses that we invent to the pill. So previous periods of less entIreness ness, they didn't have the technological means to sort of go the way with that.

There was a glass ceiling on how life centers you be without incurving cost.

like you always had some people somewhere. And because it's women who like Carry the literally Carry the consequences of of sexy home marriage, right? There were always some women who either because they had to, because they in prostitution, because they poor, all because they were like crazy aristocrats who just could be eccentric, can get away with IT who would, who would behave unusually.

But most women in the middle, you know, having sexes, probably the most consequential, and women can do without conception. So most women would take that decision very, very seriously for obvious reasons, up until the sixties. And then it's all out the window.

And we can't uninvite like the police is not gonna get uninvented even of all this. I mean, there is a little bit reaction of the kind of what I think of is the group class, right? Like women who really into women who are really into wellness.

the group class .

yeah like really, really into good, good pouch. Yeah yeah.

What what wise gop, what SHE got to do with gop, what's that?

Because there's this recognition, which I think is basic. And so there's it's it's not coming from traditional catholic or anything like that is coming from women who are, I think, justifiably concerned about the health effects, who are doing things like fertility tracking rather than her birth control that that happening. But I don't think that I don't think I handle the mass. So a rejection of the pill.

okay, dig in into the group class for me. Then what are they doing? So like natural cycles.

Innocence, if you heard of there.

Yeah, Sarah held at a great, talked about a great study that was done to do with attraction to the partner when you were got together on the pill verses off the pill at at ta.

Yeah, I know. Okay, so two things I know. I know a quarter of women who have abandoned on a minal birth control and evened up doing whatever kind of, well, more like worldless maximise means of delicious. You you can also do things like tracking your like making your exercise regime gel with your means for cycle l and think that, yes, so there's a whole, there's a whole wealth of like technology enabled reproduction wellness available, which which is good. I am nothing against IT and I also know how many women you've got pregnant .

from doing the who want from the .

exercise routine. No, got IT doesn't work that well. He doesn't word that well, realistically nomex .

moment under the tongue yeah yes .

I mean it's a more sophisticate version tracking the catholic have done forever um but like that's quite a good just catholic .

technology all over again. okay. So press predicted to licentiousness and you think that were what sort of tumbling just over the top of that super sex positive into what's coming next?

I think that I think that we yet I I think the reason I booked is unexpectedly ly well is because, yes, we're at that tipping point where everyone has been privately, not everyone, but a lot of people have been privately thinking this is weird and then they, and then someone starts saying, and you like, yeah, this is weird I think, I think that's probably the point that we I the only thing is that I don't know if it's gonna be as radical a period of prediction ess as we've seen history.

Ally, because we've got the pill one, right? So that's like a completely different material situation. And too, because we've got the internet, we have got porn.

Like is that really going to be? My suspicion is probably what will see is will see a lite reacting against the essential period, will see you know the the group class like the boat also the sale equivalent know that I mean, you know is that impulse control is such an important element of living in our kind of technology landscape. Like if you can't put on your phone, you're never going to do Operationally do anything. Yeah so the people who are best able to resist all of the various temptations, including sexual temptations of our new material conditions, other people who are most likely to find themselves in the eatee, is interesting.

Conscientiousness is moderately heritable like or psychological disposition. And yet what you're saying here is that the people who are going to best be able to control that reproduction are the people who are high conscientiousness, which means that you are going to select for people low unconscientious ously who are going to be having more kids on average.

Yes.

this is the future talking. Yes, talking about the the decline of of birth rates. You know, all of the people who are a anti nail list or anti children of family creation, but also from the left, need to read one book on behavior genetics to realize that if you want your particular philosophical ideology, political ideology, to keep going in the space of one hundred years, it's just going to be ashanti, jews and moment. And and you guys are going to be because, again, political ideologies, like sixty percent heritable.

I agree with you, and people have been worrying about this. But like a hundred and fifty years, it's just that that that you familiar with Frances golden, the father, the father of vegan ic. He he was, as far as I am aware, I mean, this was before bave a new on a gene walls. He was the first person to sit down and draw up family trees and realize that what he called .

genius was heritable.

right? And so particular families were particularly likely to generate these, you know, prominent figures. And obviously the sort of methodology he was easy now is seems really know how do my genia, but he was basically right.

He was basically recognise that all of these things were basically very psychological. Trade is horrible, to sum extent. And I mean, that's where the thing that people forget about the urgent ics movement is that IT was, IT was progressive.

IT was like self conscious, ly progressive. That's how people understood themselves. And IT was often anti religious. IT was anti conservative. IT was seen as like this brave new scientific frontier that so how many people like it's, I been reading about this at the moment for a piece of writing. And the popularity of urgently s in the early twenty century is like mine bugling and is mostly the memory .

hold brands problem. Well, I mean.

we will. What they were talking about, mostly the genesis of the period, was using the state to either encourage some people to reproduce ce, or discourage other people from reproducing. And they were some really particular in the states, the use of for sterilization.

Did you come across that? That particular lady who had had, I think IT was a, the statement was, three generations of videos are enough.

Yes, yeah, exactly. I can't remember her name, but yeah, that was an important case law in the states. And yeah, I really a lot of people were stripped in a quite brief period in america, not so much in the U. K but of course, IT was analyze that just completely made that line of thinking.

completely think the brand problem. So looking at this sort of licentiousness predation ous paradigm think is really important. I think it's know anything that kind of has a flip flop seems to be accurate to make IT always doing back and forth yeah found this article that said, looking for no month finds teams want less sex in their T, V, and movies become across this very interesting.

So Younger generations don't think sex is necessary to the plots of most movies and T, V shows that according to a recent study from U. C, L, A, researchers interviewed fifteen hundred individuals between the ages of ten and twenty four about the way that they're interacting with media, those between the ages of thirteen and twenty four, or if they thought sex. Was needed for the plot in entertainment, and forty seven point five percent of respondents said IT was not.

They also said they wanted to see less romance on screen, forty four percent and more content centers around patton's friendships, fifty one point five percent in a video U, C, L, A released in conjunction with the survey, sixteen year old respondent anna said, when there's media with too much sex in me, and my friends often feel uncomfortable. SHE later added, I feel that this is way too graphic. Survey also quote a pop star, Olivia rod regos, answer to the question of whether or not you watched the H. B R series the idol. I don't have the desire to I remember walking out of bobbi and being like, wow, it's so long since i've seen a movie that is female scanted in a way that isn't sexual or about her pain or her being traumatized.

What do you make me? So is is just a girl .

who think and arches hundred individually? No, IT seems like IT IT seems like IT was both male es and females that .

was saying that but three possible tions come to mind. The first is it's the girls not liking porn culture. Fair enough. I think that it's not hard to find women, Young women who've been raised in this, you know, who had the internet access from the get go, who absolutely hate porn culture, like hate what the boys are expecting from them all of this you might be that you might be differential faulty rates already having an impact in terms of the conservatism and religiosity of Young people because you know um.

Like in amErica for the first time in sixty seventy years, you've actually seen a decline in pro L G B T attitudes among yg people. Yeah what's that coming from? Well, my guess is that is coming from the fact that basically since the pool of more religious .

having .

good year and then that's already starting to play out in terms of the year.

gene, that male, female, liberal, conservative divide among kids as well though. Yeah so presumably if you split that polling down, but IT seems like everybody .

shifting a little bit further.

right?

That's close. Yeah yeah. First, like scene striders possible, everything.

all roads lead back to alex Jones relatives.

I mean, he was so vulto something that, I mean that IT is possible, that the sex recession, so called, is partly hormonal, is partly caused by, I am IT might partly be caused by women being on home and work control, which is changing there. Sexuality might also be because my member level.

So the low test stand for man, join my real horse theory for this, right? So I learned this. What's talking to doctor Sarah hill, who wrote, this is your brain on birth control, right? And SHE told me that male testosterone levels are mediated by the fault of the women in their local ecology.

So if you are A A male in their twenties, but you happen to be around a bunch of the men or a and about the grand, perhaps our urban to children, your tests on levels drop interest. And what you have are women who are very highly artificially suppressing default. So men are able to smell the t shirt of a woman and be able to pick the one, the one that the most attractive to is attractive to is the one who is currently at that stage of her cycle.

She's currently fertile, a seta tat. They can see, they've done studies where men watch women sillett walking. And the women who are currently, during the seven day you can get me pregnant period, they're the ones that the most attracted to the fucking silly out of the way they walk.

And and high heels replicate that. That's the the high heels .

make you so you have this receive feedback loops home. Mono birth control causes us women to select for men who are more providers rather than protectors. They want provisionals, right? They want to academic and the resources more agreeable. They then either come off or don't come off birth control, but find that they come out this fucking home on a fugue state, oh my god. Who remain a relationship with.

But you also have this effect on men too, not only socially in I noticed that lots of women seem to be attracted to Timothy charley, whose painting his nails and kind of no, but the genuine physiological, hormonal response to men just being around lots of women who are on human birth control. Now progress foods, not enough time outside, not have time with video d not in of time with friends. We did.

But there's a big x factor apparently amongst tests and researchers who don't know why men's t levels have dropped the amount that they have, right? It's about one percent year every year since I think one thousand hundred and fifty. So it's like and then that goes to one hundred and then it's that again and IT goes to one hundred. So it's not how we in minus fucking a teston soon, but yeah so how one of both control as a lot to answer for.

I think it's a really trick trade of violent because like there are clear downsides to having a bunch of low tea men, you know in terms of in terms of fatality, in terms of men and women defcon each other and like having functional relationships but also, like highest western is also associated with crime of violence yeah so which you know, do we choose to have a society of kind of sexless, incredibly like online plus soy people .

yeah who also are .

quite chill yeah don't call like an enormous problems I don't know that's like, that's like a genuinely .

hard thing to use yeah you could almost look at that kind of like disposition .

sterilization yeah yeah yeah fuck yeah but then .

we have .

problems with like like this is a real problem with the military. Employee.

no, like massive recruitment problems.

I, but not interested in IT.

Man, just on a wage war. Yeah, we can do IT from modern warfare or i'm on IT.

It's probably also partly to do with lack of like faith in the nation, like being less patriotic c in general, like that the pool of potentially great soldiers just get smaller every year and IT sort of fine. I guess we get away with IT because if we not actually a hot war and if we have those technology, but you can imagine a scenario that becomes an enormous problem, like a mass mobilization. I don't know how .

we actually fear the chinese government banned cap hop. Do you see this? Because they didn't want what was that? They called them. IT was like sissy men. We don't anymore sissy men. So IT was all of the chinese male role models, like super high t jacked dudes, and they didn't want this B T S like, so like .

culture .

infecting them. That's how, that's what they saw.

Something I learned about that from. I had a ran a meter who's a professor of chinese history politics oxford d on my brocas I didn't know this. Um in china there's a very strong association between communism and and actually it's the old press mist like confusion soy boys vertically, you know sort like intellectual indoor is associated with preset unius china. And so some of the reaction against feminization through k pop, whatever is associated with and communication.

So this kind of jane push back against romance, this is what I thought very interesting, right? So you've got a your spectrum of pretious ness and license tious sly, but it's not just the a short termism of physical desires being satisfied.

There's also another level to this, which is to do with romance and how central your connection to another person, a significant other is right because that kind of fits on the production is less sentience scale, but it's also not exactly the same, like that would be something that slightly different. How important is that, that you find a significant other? And I think that at least a little bit of that U C L.

A study probably is Rachel zegers zegers as the new snow White saying we don't need a prince to come and save her SHE didn't have a prince SHE had a stalker like a sleeping beauty consent um like I wonder if it's not just a push back against the sec side of stuff but the no mans reject against romance culture in general. A H S B C got Emily radical, the tennis player, to come and do fairy tail princess is doing IT for themselves, which was a rewriting of cinderella sponsor and snow White, where instead of waiting for a prince, the princess is went and started their own businesses on their own and invested their money wisely. So because h bc is really where we go for, like modern fucking day in culture. So yeah, I just think that this jensie push back against what me on the surface appear to be about sex may actually run deeper.

The thing is that they sort of right, the sort of a man of woman needs a man and efficient a bicycle old line, or the line from glorious dialog. I also was really clever, which is we became the men we once wanted to marry. I is, I can be feminists able to do that.

And I mean, I always, I always think this is about assertive, the disposability of men in modern culture, which is totally real, you know, like that. That basic red poll position is true. There is this problem of men basically not feeling having purpose, not feeling needed, whatever. Women not feeling as if they need husbands because, like they can do, you know, if they don't have to, if they are having children, or even if they do have children, you know, they can participate like IT. Turns out that actually women being slightly more conscientious than manner, for instance, and slightly more agreeable than manner is actually really great in a sort of laptop .

job economy.

Yeah, like women are actually slightly Better, is got overwhelmed ly mile ceos and things like. But in the the the the media range, women are actually kind of Better employees in service economists.

You know.

the problem that men are facing is not actually feminism as such. Although feminism has kind of accelerate at some of these phone ena, it's just it's basically technology. And afterwards, in highly technologically, ashish cater and affluent societies, men who are not in this incredibly, you know, far right tail, super successful, intelligent, whatever, just Normal men have less to do. We don't need Brown, like when we invented the internal costin engine. The importance of male muscle power.

db, like a to diminished. Yeah, yeah. Then as soon as you had equality in terms of access to education, unemployment and inhibited already from that Brown base to brain based economy, IT turns out that women have a kind of a genetic unfair advantage with the current working environment, which meant that the like.

this is something .

that the manufacture of the red pill never really gets right. Like when they talk about how are women in the past? And the culture that they applied to their dating made them happier.

They forget the fact that women were largely financial prisoners of their partner because they had nowhere else to go. So yeah, maybe they were able to remain lower and make Better sandwich es, but how much of that was by choice and how much of that was stuck home syndrome? Uh.

it's probably Better, I think, was the big problem with the station's co right now where we have you know, women actually earning more than men at most points in on the income distribution, just not at the very top, like the gender pay up is basically result that you've got a handful of mallet. You see .

the current P M of iceland, the country, not the fucking company, is on strike, along with all other islamic women at the mind over the gender pick up.

right?

Anyway, you was saying, yeah, a prety pretty much everywhere outside of ice, london CEO.

The gender pay gap is an artifact. One of the fact that there is a small number of very, very highly men and two of basically is a children yeah having children means that you can't Operate in the workplace in the way that man can like at the very least when you're very pregnant and you just give them both, you know but women are choosing not to do that, right?

So if you, if you, if you don't have children, and you are a sort of typical women in terms of being slightly content, just slightly more agreeable, having all of these, you know, being more truly me, more punk, being a Better employee, you do basically have more and advances in the workplace than another man. But this is completely unsustainable because of going back to the whole birthday thing. Like any culture that just dropped, reproducing itself is not going to last.

It's either going to just whether a way and die, or it's going to be overtaken by some other culture. And and I sort of think like that, the answer to the riddle of why every culture that we would see on historical record to his sustained itself and flourished, has being paid to alcohol is possible because of culture has to be paid role in order to review itself. Like, that's my black pill .

reading this .

stuff because it's very hard to be to have lots of kids as a woman. You can maybe have one or two just about and if not like affect your career, but there's just a straight forward clash between the labour market and reproduction. So women that you can kind of get away with if you make enough money because you can pay an any and all this kind of stuff, but for most women is just like.

That's just that that they are almost a reconcile liable. You have, you have to trade off something. And what most women are choosing to do, IT seems, is that they having for your children, which for them personally might actually, in the truth, is like, children are expensive.

And nicky, like, they are wonderful. They are wonderful. But if you've not have them, you don't know how wonderful they are. Like once you've had your children, you just love them more more than life itself. Like every mother I know says, I would unhesitating ly die for my children. But if you've never experience that kind of love, and it's kind of theoretical, yeah, then why I wouldn't you say, actually, now I D rather make .

this no next promotion. Well, the modern culture prioritized pleasure in the heart. Now, in short term, ism over everything else.

I think human beings just do as .

but I maybe there was, I don't know, maybe a right. But IT seems like there was definitely a prepared ness to invest now for returns in the future more so our ability, the marshmallow was more effective one hundred years ago for most.

I think because culture kind of I think culture serves good. Culture serves the purpose of channeling people's, making people more long term. St, because our natural color is, to be sure, terminal. Most of us and all I mean, the thing is with having children is like you your short term as because .

you will have sex and .

then do to think about.

guess what, the next forty years of your life locked off.

And I know if there's like there's a certain elegance to that, right? But we've lost that because conception. And now there are still groups, there are still cultures, there are still, there are still people who just love babies and will have loads of kids because they just get so much joy from babies, which is great.

Like by one of those people, I would rapper, have those other kids and earn less money. I've like made that rational decision. But a lot of people, for a lot of people, that's not an obvious choice.

Some cultures are still channeling people to be more traditionally been more long term. St, but the main in culture absolutely isn't doing that. And the very likely consequence of that is that, I mean, like I can't member the numbers exactly. But south korea, you'll know, has the lowest fertility in the world.

For every one hundred south koreans, there will be four great grandchildren.

Right, like there's never been a plague that has knocked .

out how many people the percent. And right over the remembering that we shut down the entire world for something that kills one to two percent of people.

Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, is the most incredible evolution bottles they were going through.

The interesting thing about declining birth rates is that it's a it's not an existential risk in the traditional sense of permanent unrecoverable collapse. It's not a classic version, but it's A A population risk that's very unique in that there's no smoke in the sky, there's no asteria heading toward earth, there's no there's no lead measure if you're looking until it's way too late. Yeah right.

You don't feel like getting you don't even feel like getting uh, quieter because we've got an aging population whilst reducing a birth, right, which means that you can have more people on the planet while fewer are being made so you can almost predict out that lines. Yeah, right. yeah.

I definitely think that a big chunk of IT is this prioritization of the hearing now, of pleasure, of meaning. Did you see a the goal with the list on tiktok? No, in this, this needs to be for the Perry pilled out that to be a part of IT.

This girl wrote a three hundred and fifty point eight page long list and printed them out out on tiktok. Of all of the reasons why you didn't want to have kids. And these arranged ed, from things like literally a parasite living inside of my body, to can't like cute heals anymore, to a unable to do brunch with the goals, and then SHE printed off like a one page list of reasons to have kids. And now, like hashtag go with the list on tiktok got millions and blips of place.

amazing. Yeah, I mean, I guess she's kind of right. But the problem is that the thing you have to have on that that reason do you have kids is like like inexpressible joy.

which to me.

yeah, which to me does cancel out up like brunch with the girls, because you can bring your .

name to brunch with the girls. And when he comes to heals, look at the shoes you've got on today.

Did I never were heels? Anyway, liberated.

Sparkly things. So one of the promises I marry, ea, start on the show a couple of weeks ago, who's just phenomenal. I feel like she's your spirit animal and SHE was talking to me about very similar sort of things that the promises that women were given previously, the freedom deliberation ultimately do you think that most women on average are more happy with modern sexual culture than they were previously that say, sixty or seventy years ago?

Um I think no but the outliers are quite um striking. So there are some the thing is that having the kind of, let's say, like mildly patriotic kind of structure where the assumption is that the men do participate most in public life and due the bulk of, well, I mean, IT depends on what area are talking about materially, right? So in subsistence cultures, women do actually do loads of economic work.

They just do economic work that is compatible with also looking after little children. So let the man goes out in the field in collector materials, and the woman processes the materials at home on minding the toddles and like sharing the the bird in of a charker with her size and cousins whatever. Um the more recent model of the breadwinner with the man goes out all the money and the woman says that all of the housework and unusual.

It's not that it's not that bad. Like actually it's fine if and only if your husband isn't the but if your husband is a tyre is a completely disastrous. So it's like for most people it's fine, for most women is fine and probably is actually Better than like the the status 3， where women have to still do this portion amounts of childcare and housework and do all of the, you know, all the pregNancy, obviously all the breast feeding, obviously past going out to work, right? This is what feminine are called. The second shift that you n are doing two jobs .

that I think worth actually what I didn't say, you'd worked IT out that you were doing a full time job. Breast feeding. Yeah, you were doing forty hours a week of breast feed.

Yeah, yeah. That's the third shift. yeah. Exactly like crazy .

level of .

crazy of work that you have to do. We should have seen you a joyful, meaningful seta, but IT is like there are only so many hours in the day you like .

you need IT isn't feasible .

unless you have loads of money available to you, whatever. IT isn't feasible to not have a husband, father who goes out and does all of that and still be as good a mother as you want to be.

I'm so interested in paradoxes in a mary taught me about a ton of them. You have to pill IT gets introduced, increase in single motherhood, increase in abortions, like paradox. interesting. Another one that I found from kindness, Blake, who's over in australia, is that gender in inequality, in the pay gap between men and women, positively predict both male and female satisfaction in relationships, that the more unequal the earning opportunities are for men and women. Skill in the direction of men, not women, the happy of both men and women are in their outcomes and relationships instead .

hand dads is a very strong predictor. Divorce yeah if the .

woman is the primary bread, when a man of fifty percent more likely to erectile function medication um you know increases in domestic violence, the women are more likely to be a on the receiving end of domestic violence if that the primary great winner because the male partner switches from a benefit affording to a cost inflicting mate retention strategy.

You know if you begin to feel a disparity in mate value, you have two choices, right? You can either start to raise the yourself up, i'll try to drag the other person down. And making them fearful of you was a pretty good way to drag them down.

But that, you know, that kind of dark. That being said, the patriarchy is so powerful that we've somehow convinced women that they both need to earn the money and we can stay at home while they bear the burden of children. So maybe this is just a sign up from all of us to not have to do anything except ex box.

Now ah what we've we've discovered all right so I don't really believe in okay, page archy clearly has like a strict anthropos al meaning in that societies where only men are allowed to to be in position, apparent authority have to traditionally been described patrol by anthon logic. We don't live in one of those anymore.

We having lived in one of those for a half century now in the I mean, this country, we've had like three female prime ministers and I feel free. But I think that there's also a different way in which people use a work by trial, which still, to some extent applies to contempt culture, which is that there's this quite deep seated feeling shared by both men and women. And I think crash.

Culturally, the masculine things are higher status than feminine things. And that's why you see this great eagerness, actually, of women, now that they can to participate in light, muscular encoded things to be, well, professional work, right? There's been this rush of women into into, into the into public life in traditionally masking roles. There has not been a rush of men in traditional feminine roles not .

at all associated.

And I think often that's what feminists are describing when they talk about things paid to alcohol like they recognize that that there's kind of state cap.

remember, is describing that at least society is describing that like on their own behalf .

yeah you know yeah like I this .

is what Richard reads. This book was so interesting where he talks about heal, right? What was that? Like health education. Maybe like administration .

at something else.

Feminine bs. Yeah ah mine jobs. Yes, there are times more female fighter pilots in the U. S. Efforts by percentage than their are male kindergarten .

teachers in america. Yeah, yeah. Because they just hasn't been this rush for many to china.

Time feminine status, right? And I think that I don't think that our culture is mysore genius, right? Msg ists exist there, are there? There are some of out there.

But that's not typical. I think though, that this sort of. Deep sea assumption that women are that you familiar with the women are wonderful bias.

Yes, this is the .

cognitive bias where people will tend to actually prefer to sort of shows kindness and generosity to women over men in various scenarios. Are like, ah you know you see a stranger drowning, you're more likely to jump into the and save them with their female and in their male.

Men and women are more positively disposed to news stories that compliment women's outcomes are say that a woman achieved something, then say that a man achieved something .

exactly and vice versa. True too, which doesn't IT with the I we look like I hate women. I think the way that women are so have regarded all else being equal is as um like your mom like you love your mom .

necessarily.

You don't necessarily respect her. I think that I think that's the common way, which is like the I think that the the puzzle basically is to why women are so consistently regarded in a particular way across culturally as being like lovable, but also a bit like lowest status, is that women are considered to be kind of adjacent to children. So in the same way that we love children, but we are going to let them vote, right? I think that what the human brain does, eia, has this like, it's like as men, there's women as children. So women are in a kind of intermediary position, and very often I basically have kind of child like legal status.

which is why I suppose ties into something that have been saying for a while. Modern women have been taught that true freedom is having sex like their brother and working like their father. That's the pinacle because it's this like clAmbering up.

trying to retain that masculine status, which for some women, particularly women, you have a more masculine template, you know, like some women are more disagree ever and competitive and not maternal. And those women have done well out of the changes we've made, such revolution, and that they can basically live, they can basically live like brothers. Now, pretty much most women aren't like her, though, and aren't made happier by china. Be male. Well.

Chelsea kona boy, in the new york times, after I wrote that article, meta instinct is myth that man created.

That's not true. Yeah right? Like, yeah, you can go around sort of pretending that's true blow in the face. But I just don't think it's true.

It's such A A hydro headed problem that we're talking about because it's the convergence of the deny sex differences, this sort of tyrant's of the minority, a selection for the most outspoken, gregarious amongst a group to focus on the outlines. It's not even tyranny of the minority as in some unspoken class that speaking up for themselves, but also tyranny of the minority that appears to have have outsized achievements like the male ceos.

That's exactly what we've got going on here that will skew data that people will focus on and use. January, january of february of this year is the highest percentage number of new female seals ever in america, is thirty four percent of new of CEO in amErica were female new ceos. You go like that's insane that so that I would guess if you to actually pull from a nature predisposition perspective that that's over indexing for IT like how many women actually want that life, that job? CEO sounds like a fantastic title, but what's the reality of CEO?

And I would .

hate eight .

hours stress.

It's horses for courses. And I get like, this is Peterson fucking two thousand and eighteen stuff, you know of me, right? Like how many times do we need to buying this drum? Yeah, evidently more because it's not happen. One of the thing I really dig in to, what do you think the fallout of me, too, has been now approaching ten years. His hence .

I often hear from men that they are now more reluctant to go to a woman in a bus. There's this problem of fear of being falsely accused of something. And so I think, I mean, I believe them, you know, if that if some are experiencing that, i'm sure that what's gone on is the men who will any sexually aggressive and likely to actually be, you know, me too, perpetrators haven't changed their behavior at. And the men who started being really careful will probably finds begin .

with if you were rapper, the recent social media campaign, probably i've got a hashtag on twitter, I Better to stop going around raping yeah which is.

I mean, that's A I ways I wrote about in my first book. And that applies to this as as to load of things. The problem of Normal distribution, where you have some trade which is arranged on a bulk of, and the problem is that if you apply some intervention, so whatever that is, like a social movement, like me to, or some policy change ever, probably what you want to do is you want to actually target one of the tales you want to, you lie all.

So we've got that. We've a belk of section aggression. And there's this this like most aggressive vent who are causing their end of harm. What we wanted do is make them stop, but it's you can't just apply intervention to that. To that point on, the more distribution like it's gonna shift in one where another and everyone is going to.

So what you end up with is moving .

the threshold ld for being like reluctant to go woman in a barrow, whatever, slightly just to mean that like some of the nice guys are not doing that. But that doesn't actually improve IT doesn't affect the right first and IT doesn't .

improve when his experience of a David buses book bad men talks about uh it's one man doing a thousand section assaults a man in again um and unfortunate as well repeat victims there is something about the way that again this is an victim blame but IT is like something about the way that women hold themselves where they showed to I think maybe criminals in prisoner or assaulters or assault and are assaulted people and show them a number of women walking and they asked them to pick which one they would attack if they were going to and they converged on the same women uh, so you know, for all that we can say, you know, it's not about wearing the skirt IT shouldn't be about being in the dark ali at the wrong time.

All the rest of that they correct. But there is something about particular women that IT causes predators to see them as viable prey. Does that excuse IT know? Does that, you know, is that then choosing IT also know? But like, this is just the way that the world appears to be. Yeah, yeah.

And he draws me mad that we tell lies to girls all time about this, because we are so desperately not to appear to be victim blooming. That will say, oh, no, you, you know, you can behave like a man. You can do what if you want? Go back to some random guy's house we find and then when IT an evitable ly isn't fine.

Well, I are. Well, you know, he shouldn't have, he shouldn't been so aggressive like, yes, obviously, but we don't. You know, I would laugh to just like delete every rapist from the world all at once. I can't do that. Like the advice that i'm gonna giving my daughters is is going to be, unfortunately, different from the vial of my sons.

What would be the advice .

given life fitness? Don't go back to iran. A man's house. Did you just met like basic OK, like pete considered to be completely common sense or up until up until even like the one thousand and eighty you know, this is like recent stuff, but basically unsafe now in feminine circles at least except everyone quietly as you know.

Well, again, it's the stated and reveal preferences yeah like how many parents that will profit ze about this on CNN and say that you know we shouldn't be telling women oh, so you're saying that we should just accept the fact that men are going to do this. You should be IT shouldn't be that women should change their actions. Men should change their behavior.

Okay, what did you tell your seventeen year old daughter to do last weekend? Did you did you say make sure the attacks me when you get home? Make sure the before eleven at that again.

unless it's taxi whatever .

yeah did reveal preferences yeah.

And what drives me, anas, is that we there are some girls who don't actually have parents or friends, or whoever who are privately telling them the truth. You know, all they get all way here is, is, is the public this direction?

This is like the luxury belief of me too.

in a way. Yeah and so I feel as if actually we have a duc people who who asked, making publicly to tell those girls the truth on the assumption that they're not going .

to hear from anyone else the cultural gate mothers anyway yeah.

you've got this line between .

consensual and good, which I think relates to me too as well. What's that?

I think that a lot of what so I mean, there's a lot of things came under the metre banner. Some of IT was just unambiguously criminal and you know heavy windsor, whatever got sent to prison for for criminal acts. A lot of what came up though, a lot of the stories that got shared with things that weren't actually strict, a criminal, they were just was just like bad behaviour.

IT was behaviour that actually in another era, you probably would have been, probably would have been called ungentlemanly or something like that. But but that vocabulary isn't available to a sort of contemporary feminist who's really brought into the to to the sex positive message. And so they'll tend to just talk about things being consensual or not consensual.

And actually the consensual not consensual bar is is like a low one is a legal bar. It's not actually a moral bar really like there's a lot of there are a lot of things that a man can do on the first day of that illegal, but a bad plenty. But we don't really have the vocable to describe them, which is why I try me, you know, like the feminist case for shivery, we shouldn't got rid of that as a concept. Like when you have this as stark of physical difference and psychological differences between the sexes, you know .

nineteen nine percent of .

men can kill one thousand and nine percent of women with their bare hands, and not vice versa. We have to Operate with without recognition. Civili, in those circumstances is obviously women's interests. Even if occasion IT will mean being feelings like patongo zed, like he is, I am so happy to have my the door held open for me and my bag .

Carried IT is completely fine if that means, yeah, I mean that this is I I quote you and marry about this all the time, that IT is a straight line from you should hold the door open for a woman to you shouldn't beat your wife. IT is one just continuous. Women are worthy of protection, and there is an accessory between what men, women can do. Yeah and again, I rob Anderson, coming a couple of a days later than you. It's like luxury beliefs all over again, like the women who come from societies where the husband's already knew that beating your wife would be a bad idea or they have the support networks where that wouldn't be, did were trying to deconstruct a support structure that was needed for the underclass women whose husband's had grown up without a father and whose stabbed had had beaten in them, who just presumed that the way that he was supposed to be in a relationship was to hate your wife.

Yeah, I mean, I just like chest since fans like the wisdom of IT. You know this I different, jack. Just you come across a fence in the field.

You don't know what is there for the progressive, the reformer, whatever vocabulary he uses, says, we don't need response to turn down where's the conservatives or says, no, let's find out what is for. And then maybe we might turn down if IT turns out that he really is unnecessary. I mean, just the whole last hundred years has .

been like most of the .

education of chests and space principle yeah and and I and I honest think that most of you actually to do with technology, like much as I love to to complain about my political enemies, like actually the main thing that change for people has not been it's intellectuals of one thousand nine hundred and sixties it's been um the the solution of the family has as much to do with the pill as IT does with anything anything ministers ever said. No like the real I am very short materialist in the sense I think the real engine of history is is technology. Or as mary hering ton, our friend likes to say, it's some material ality plus means .

the mean first, explained later, mean, mary, run boat. That what was IT that you told me the last time we spoke? The washing machine has done more to liberate women than any feminist ever did.

That was fill shuff observation finish. Lovely is such an interesting vega, because so he was at sixty a, when was he had been born? SHE was at her height in the seventies.

And SHE was, I mean, was one of these really interesting women american was that SHE build her self as like an american housewife and he was SHE had to think of five kids um but he also was like a foreign policy expert who had worked in um not westminster washington um and had like incredible degree actually a profession expertise. But he always built her self as like you know a lonely housewife whatever. And SHE LED the campaign against the equal rights amendment, which was the second way feminist efforts to basically shine in the U.

S. Constitution, that men and women are equal and not to have equal rights. And slightly said, in retrospect, not unreasonably, many women aren't the saying. And so actually, if you were to ensure this in the constitution, you would frequently end up with things with, with you having to do things. So actually, but not in them as interest.

So the example you like to give this, as was doing the winner, Moore, was you, anna, get you wana see women drafted because that's that's where that end up. If you say that men are women are the same, then why wouldn't you draft women? Why would you you be something private women in to combat? Many know, sign, whatever.

And used to say, because they were land to what they say. What would you think anyone should be drafted and OK, okay. But if you are trying to like future proof, your constitution, which is, I think, very much the point of the constitution, that does seem to be an obvious, I mean, I don't completely agree with slightly. One other thing he used to do, which I find so chrge, is when ever he showed up at a public event, SHE used to thank her husband .

for allowing her to be there.

I don't do that when I got to opens. So like he was, he was on a different time in that sense of days. I'm i'm not gona hole finish laughing up as like a feminine is posed to go. But SHE did like he had insights at the time which on which he has been proven right um an equal rights moment was never passed because .

of her effort. What do you think about this lack of approach at the moment? Alexander, one of my friend's alex state sike put a study up recently. Fifty cent of managed dating to twenty four have never approached a woman in person in their life, and like even higher percentage, eighteen to thirty having approached women in the last year. Is this done stream from me too?

I have a site where take on this, which is that actually the thing you hear about as sort of there's that jane x people talk about of going up someone in a bar, and there's been a way of striking relationships. I think that was a very brief period of history, sort of poetic revolution. But free internet, where that was considered Normal um and i'm silly too Young to average experience that the Normal way actually that people start relationships in the vast majority of cultures is to be like is like sem arrange marriage right like not the fool you've never met this person before you know, thirty year old, whatever, getting patrolled LED like, not like that.

But the sort of you're introduced by family members, mutual friends, you're known in the community, you go us in church, whatever IT is and then you're both of your families, like consent to the marriage and IT works out okay, but that little, but that the expectation isn't like the expectation of marriage up until relatively recently was that you would have an economic relationship. You know, in a reproductive relationship, you went best friends. And actually, I don't think I don't think have been on why I just talk to each other as much as they too.

Now I think people used to have much more home as social kind of lives. You hung out with other men. You hung out with other women. You wouldn't nearly hung out a lot with the opposite x including spouse, to this idea that like the going up to a person in the bar is like the norm. Natural wave starting and relationships, I don't think is historically.

That's interesting. So the mail aversion felt fear of approach anxiety, which every guy listening is aware of, apart from the psychopath, right? There is a girl that I find attractive that I I know, I don't know.

or partly know, or whatever. Yeah.

hi, how are you nice to meet you? Is kind of like a manager war did you have to go to? And the felt sense of palpable fear, yes, just ripping you of heart inside that isn't, or the modern version to that isn't some novel new problem. IT was a in europe ion here, a bar that kind of never really needed to be gotten ten over in the first place in some regards, because you had seen each other at church for ages, or her father owned the farm next to your father's land. And you guys are not like.

yeah, yeah, people have much more kind of static social lives. So yeah, just approaching some stranger. And any of getting married to her is, no.

I had this I had this conversation because I called mad lesson who is a mating ideology researcher ascending tude ominous and he talks about this all of the different um arrangements that people went through and the romantic to the confluent, which is what we've moved through most recently, has left us with a really interesting vestige, which is previously IT. Was they on the the farm next door is almost like a tactical marriage between the two of you and then it's no, no, no, no.

You're supposed to you guys supposed to be together forever, you know there is supposed to be deeper, meaning instantiated in this but then as soon as you have the sexual revolution, you have confluence so far as long as you can benefit me and I can benefit you I think even me a kalifa who obviously parag on of sexual virtue um said on a recent interview that um people think that marriage is some sacred thing. It's not. It's just a piece of paper.

And if this person isn't helping you grow, its time to move on. So just confluent like ideology that helps you grow. You need to be helping me though i'm not sure yeah helping you prepare for your next point scene. I don't know whatever you mean. So you have this really interesting thing, which is that both the two most recent cultures have kind of got like conceptual inertial inside of our heads that we have this sense.

And we were kind of told, and maybe some people think that it's true that you're supposed to find a person who fulfills you, who your confident on your best friend, your the sexual paramo, your the co owner of your children and the households and all the rest of things. And yet modern culture is this more confluences thing, which is that supposed to benefit you and help you grow? And these two things kind of bounce off against each other.

And then, you know, if we look back necessarily, what would predispose for it's fuckyou. Neither of those two, right? Like you can say what you want about the truths of utility of both of those IT wasn't that and IT seems seems like cereal monogamy is what we built for some combination of legends and serial monogamy and and all of these the existing base rate of what we are, plus the two most recent cultures are just like like the bemused triangle of mating ideologies inside of my mind.

Yeah, there's this book called the the all or nothing marriage, which is about sort of, yes, this modern conception marriage, where we're exactly this. You put so much expectation on your spouse that they will be, you know, you will be perfect, sexually compatible, perfectly like, conversationally compatible. You everything, everything is perfect.

And obviously for those people, that isn't gna be true. And that's not going to be true for sixty years or whatever that you might be together. And so you end up with this nothing thing that like some people have actually be fabulous ages and some people they can't possibly take the australia that they collapse and the autists compare IT to a mathild herky needs.

Well, like if you're in a position if if you're in a situation of economics assistance, you basically just see your spouse is like your economic partner with whom you have children, but your expectations are not that high and then you reach the point where you're so afternoon, right? It's every culture where you kind of regard marriage as yes, as IT as well, filling all of these like ethical psychological needs, which is just not reasonable. So I honest this again. Mary hiring ton anneslie diable SHE has the same that we should to borrow big grams, that the idea of having these incredible, like, romantic expectations of your files is just pretty much .

setting yourself .

up to what was your thing .

that was you that reminded me of a story that i'd forgotten from my childhood about a lady's dropping handkerchiefs.

Oh right as a way of like demonstrating .

interest yeah so I had this thing with mean, David bus came up with this solution around women cultivating receptiveness if they want to improve their dating prospects now, and opposed me to world, were worried about women safety is especially sexually. This is something that is kind of difficult to say. But again, if you want to work within the confines of how reality is, not how you wanted to be, I think that women cultivating receptiveness accounts for the sale approach anxiety problem and that you know.

A A slightly .

lingering, a longer lingering eye than you think, or like, you know, smiling at somebody, is opposed to doing the why men of bitches treat him mean.

keep him keen kind of approach, receiving those signals later. You think, have you ever heard that the average man of one hundred and thirty I Q has really like emotional social research mity of a woman with seventy I Q like .

this is my what actually socially retarded?

Yeah ah husband right that my husband calls me a which because I can like able to like sense does something off you.

Are you today olives?

I think it's just women. I think we .

are just sense .

faced expressions, something which most managers oblivious to some exceptions.

So well, let's take that as the, again, the thermal dynamics of the situation that men are the EQ is fifty percent of what woman is. Essentially, if that is the case, leaning and even further to not being receptive is going to make said blinked man even less capable of understanding. That may be you're interested.

Oh yeah ah right.

So I just think that again, another confluence of the hydro's head, of lots of stuff that's going on, the multi factorial problem women are, may be being a little bit more masculine, working in more masculine environment, thinking they need to be more disagreeable to be more effective at work, concerned about their own safety, a generally skeptical of of men that come up to them, strange men that come up to in the bar, which is LED to absolutely less receptivity from a women. And it's like luck if you are complaining, like we're all of the good man at, look around a little bit, if you can, when you are at your crossing c class or you're doing yoga or you're doing whatever. And if if some guy comes up to and ask some awkward, clunky question, but he's kind of cute, like don't just presume that he's asking the question like use the witch clavius right tap into the astral alma whatever is that you do ah and think oh yeah if you heard of the the mail over perception in the female under perception bias is .

this with such an interesting .

correct yeah yeah that's an in David David buses book that men are over estimate the degree of interest that women have to them and women underestimate which is largely why you have awkward passes by, uh, male co workers and stuff. Well, what do you mean like horizon? You saw the way that he looked at me every time we went to the copy machine, or rates .

that really.

yeah.

so men are more likely to falsely perceive section interest when the drunk, which again, IT just makes so much sense of all. You know, like you, you know that there was like me too. But for schools in the U.

K. A few years ago, IT was called, everyone's invited. IT was like a website that some girls set up to describe by bad, sexy experiences that they're with, what in school?

Not also not.

namely in school. This was the things. So ends up being a big headache for teachers and had teachers because parents are obviously upset understand um and they said, you know, you should be teaching concept workshops in schools.

You should be all the thing that the teachers are like. This isn't happening in school. Very rarely is this happening in school.

This is Normally happening happening friday night at some house party. The parents aren't there. Everyone is drunk and I get kind of the parents responsibility .

and to stop .

yeah and it's like, look, you've got honey Young man raised on porn plus alcohol. Young women often giving confusing signals. I mean, of the things that like teenage girls just don't understand, bless them. It's like if you if you say written veiling clothes because you want to attract a particular man, that the blast radius of that signal. No, yeah, like I was.

I was getting a train recently in london and there was a schoolgirl who was potty, like sixteen, who was walking head of manager, is going up the stairs, and he was wearing such a short skirt going to school that I could see absolutely everything. And I, like, I almost hugged after her, just to say, like, you're lucky. IT was me who was walking behind you, and I know that you're doing this because you want to feel I like there is a kind of thrill of feeling sexy that Young women experience for the first time.

And they have no idea how potent and dangerous that that tool is. So you know, you do IT because there's of like particular guy hights the same train as you who won up, catches eye, whatever, fine. But like, I could have been a creepy bloke.

And this is why I think parents have to be banning their daughters from leaving the house, looking like that, basically because they have no idea. Like teenage girls are just, I mean, teenage 依赖。 Teenager is dumb.

The sort of me too, conversation around victim blaming and stuff is such a deep hole when you get into to talk about, should things be this way? no. Are things this way? yes.

Do you want to play within the confines of the thermal dynamics of this particular system, where you probably should, right? And to thread that needle, especially because I I often think about this dog, mary wants to taught me that IT doesn't really matter. Who makes the best logical argument in the debate? If you managed to get two or three big laps, you win.

Yes.

and it's almost, but it's just via bio protect, right? And the problem with this discussion, if you have somebody who is very anti this and is saying that victim blaming you, are you think that you giving me a past, you are saying that women should be fearful of what they should wear. And it's like that particular talking point is so empathetically robust in its signaling that IT almost always wins.

Yeah because the most obviously Carrying argument of front, that sounds like the one that sounds right, that sounds like the one that you'll get the most support for on twitter. It's so tough to put IT like right. Yeah yeah. No, I don't disagree. But look at the outcomes that we get from this.

One of the things that progressives really have on their side rhetorically is that if you you're conservative who saying, look actually you know that there was a line that one of my really sent me from all places IT was a book about um making wine and the line was traditions of experiments that worked.

You can say that when you talk about wine making and it's not too like politically explosive, but you can obvious ly apply that to to socially as well is not a great line exactly. But what you end up if you're trying to make that argument and if you and if you you proposing anything remotely conservation, is that you have to you end up having to defend other cultures or cultures of the past. So you'll say, look, actually, you know, there was a lot to be said for the sort of slightly arranged marriage.

There's a lot to be said for teenage girls being encouraged, dressing modestly, whatever and people say, oh, what are you are saying that you support domestic violence? You're saying that you support, you know, color and imperialism and like everything that might have happened during the air that you're talking about and you have say, no, no, I don't know if you just end up with them back fall, whether if you're progressive, you can say, I can see this vision. You in the future will have this amazing society of everything's great.

And the fact that this is this hadn't never happened and is never likely to happen means that you never, you never in the position having to defend anything. Unfortunately, you never have to talk about trade offs. I think that like acknowledging the existence of trade offs is a fundamentally conservative trade.

Yes, on the solutions only trade up.

Yeah, this is really painful, but it's true. Unfortunately.

you've ve seen a lot of the stats coming out about the happiness or lack of among the Young girls. You know, sixty percent of girls age twelve to sixteen have regular persistent feelings of hopelessness and stuff like that. What's your assessment of the current mental health of Young women?

I mean as he has be really bad, the the I mean there's all the obvious stuff um about why you know Young people they don't outside enough. They didn't do not exercise. But but that's that's cheaper voices.

Well, I think um jonathon hysan lots of work on this that the main thing that's going on for girls is social media because girls use social mea different boys. One of the ways girls use social media is to talk each other right goals are so that you know that all, basically all contagious mental illnesses start among and predominate among teenage girls. If the things like that example anerew I reference is like a classic example, or all right now, apparently all these teenage girls got to wraps that they were acquire from tiktok.

There was a period were a multiple personality disorder that others were coming out on tiktok .

too precisely. And I think it's because it's kindly like that, which I think we were talking about earlier, like women being very, very socially sensitive for obvious evolutionary reasons. You know that women being smaller, not having the kind of musical capacity that men do, the main advantage you have in terms of your own survival and survival of your children is making alliance.

This particular, among other other women, you know, recruiting other women to assist you, you are endeavor, whatever requires the social sensitivity. And I think that that can miss fire in terms of saving. So receptive to whatever getting to read from tiktok that you, you know, you you do so harm, basic element is not terrible harm.

But like I direct here, is terrible harm, right? That you might acquire sort of thematically. And I think also that means that girls, I mean, one of things are for instagram, like the image by social media, which seems be particularly about the girls. Um twitter is bad for journalists, sends them completely insane. Tiktok in instagram sends teenager girls insane I think it's because um one of the things that are looking at these these these platforms, one of things is just a girl is IT given the completely false impression of their intersexuality competition pool that Normally they would look around at the .

Young women they actually .

know who are like in as they are and I think o OK right here, this is like, this is basically my mind like competition pool for requiring each other like equally media looking man, right? Where is now you look at instagram and you see the most beautiful women in the world I brushed and having a possible surgery, and you think that's your introspective al competition. So I think it's just kind of, I think IT just plays complete hamburger with .

their minds. This also explains the social contagion theory for F M transitions. Because if the you've heard the a left on in this argument for transit people, right, that as soon as you remove the society in positions and judgment, people can truly be the yeah so yeah okay.

If that's the case and that very well may contribute, if that was entirely the case, why is IT four goals that all sit together at the same lunch table in school? right? Why is IT not even across the entire popular, not IT mps together, right? right?

Um it's one being that diagnoses of genetic oria. I've gone from being primarily a male thing to being primarily females, like by a big margin, like a huge explosion, has been a mentor age girls. Specifically.

there was a study in finland that I found that I put my newsletter last week that said they could attribute fifteen percent of the negative mental health outcomes of teenage goals to that use of birth control and I I realized this when I spoke to uh doctor sa hill last year. Um she's talking to me about how Young forming brains can have particular types of negative mental health outcomes locked in for life if you're on home on above control during this particular period. And I remember thinking about the codling of american mind at the time and going I one hundred percent that that no one's fact in the base rate of the increase of all mono birth control and the previous position that is caused among the Young girls.

Yeah yes, i'm sure that that's true. This sounds round about that. I if there is this debate you might be familiar with about whether or not it's ethical to use chemical castration for Peter philes, in some countries they do. So like germany, I think, is an example of a country that that will offer chemical castration as an alternative to prison .

time and actually an alternative.

Yes, maybe you have IT when you're on precious similar like.

which is one of the reasons .

why I think it's not popular in the U. K. right? Because cheering is a famous example of that being used against gay um but a lot of pedophiles will say that they would prefer that and that actually they are really tortured by that. I am I I I am generally with the opinion I think this is scientifically sound that IT IT is an a nate sexy orientation discount in a small number of men, and a lot of them report being absolutely tortured by a IT awful.

It's like the most stigmatized, like you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy a horrible curse, right? They would actually choose chemical castration, but to relieve them of that and and yet there's a there's a general feeling, at least maybe an angle sphere that there's something really dodging about using sort of pharmacological punishments, right? And you can imagine, of course, using in other context as well, you might see date aggressive, you know whatever um I was going to a friend about there's who works in politics and who's a gay man and and I was single.

You know you could use like you know that the ARM the importance you get in your ARM, you could you could use that to sort of release small doses of this every day. And he said, the employees, you get in your work. And so you know, you can get home or conception, either you get bit in your ARM or you get the the the introduction devices or whatever, which is the create more.

He had no idea because he's like innocent to these these matter but IT ocred to me like isn't crazy that we're so IT seems so outside the open window to um use pharma logy to like alter the minds of criminal offenders. And we've had teenage girls on these drugs decade like we know them to be mind already to some extent and we put like no hesitation about putting an ARM in plants like a fifteen year old goal um when it's basically quite experimental drug. I mean the argument against us to say, yeah but pregNancy is also a pretty like poor .

a come for a fifteen .

year old that but also a quite extreme thing to go through full start, physically, mentally as such. So if the choice is pregNancy or human about control, home made about control, has firesides effects.

You know, the one of solutions only trade offs, right? And it's rough. And I I think about some of my friends who've got Young goals that may be twelve a thirteen and gonna be starting to be around boys that can get them pregnant and gonna become sexually active at at some point in future, but also know about the risks of home on the birth control, and don't want to condemn the beautiful daughter to a life of potential in a ten percent more anxiety and depression risk, plus the weight gain, and did all the rest the stuff.

But also really don't want them to get pregnant at fifteen and you go OK, are you again playing within the confines of the world as IT is as we wanted to be, but saying, I make sure that you use protection and make sure that but like you don't get too drunk and but it's like that fifteen or or 3 or you know yeah you said that about the a sexual pretty position of the Peter feel being sexual a orientation p details。 Got a famous question, which is what you believe that most people would disagree with. And for a long time, that was mine, that non offending pedophiles need way more sympathy than we give them.

Because i've had a bunch of neuroscientists on the show, and they've put people in fmrs with the rosal responses, and they can show non offending Peter files everything. They can throw, every sexual kink under the sun at them, nothing. And then they are able to show them something that take us her fancy and really disturbing.

Ings, IT would be so much IT would actually be so much more like psychologically reassuring, which is why I think must be a prefer explanation to think that it's just some manifestation of evil or something or is under people's control .

because .

it's just it's awful to think.

oh, I remember learning about IT, who was a uni, and I was I was dating this girl, a mart doctor, medical student. And SHE told me about this and she'd given a presentation on stage basically saying, like, we need to give these people more sympathy. Uh, because IT wasn't that long ago that gay man was seen basically as the same. Now the difference being that gay man could enact of not that couldn't, but they were in the right future able to enact IT without doing something that was taking advantage of a person that can't consent.

Yeah but .

ever since that, i've always had this in the back of my mind as one of those. And yeah, the discomfort IT was the same reason, I think, that even before the lab league hypothesis was something that was put forward, people were so prepared to lay covers origins at the feet of a mine scientist, because IT was so much more comforting than believing that IT was the transmutation of some silly little microbe, because one .

Normal and one .

at least, was just not chaos.

Yeah.

you and IT felt like I was more in your control with the right in intervention, we could have fixed IT. Yeah, so like, no, you can't .

yeah yeah I read something I forget who now but I read someone writing about, uh, israel is relevant as well the and the failure to the failure of the of of the the gaza borders and the fact the hammers were able to get through on h on the same topshop er and that so many people have assumed that there some sort of conspiracy at play that some faction within israeli government, or the americans, or you know, whatever conspiracy you fancy for deliberately permitted in haus to do this in order to whatever justify platting guys are whatever IT is and this writer said is, isn't IT telling that people will jump to that conclusion rather than the much more likely conclusion which mal failure, which is that when you have any kind of complex system, like sometimes is a blow, a brisk yeah and that that's actually true of everything like what horrible thought, but that's actually to our entire civilization, is basically resting on these very, very delicate complex systems.

No one really understands in the the bias is called compensatory control. So when things seem like outside blow at birth has occurred, we want to lay IT at a sequence of events that at some point we could have interjected the compensate we control.

So like magical thinking is like, you know, praying to the gods, to sand, rain or whatever. It's that feeling of wanting to have some kind of external agents who controls all of this because it's actually so much worse to think that is, that is random.

You spoke about intros structure ual competition. I've got a pretty spicy theory about body positivity that I anna, teach you about. So this is the rival ary theory of body positivity. Natio dir is female. Support for body positivity is at least in part fuel deep down by female inta sexual competition, which pushes are the women out of the dating pool by discouraging them from losing weight.

I mean, yes, but I also think to some extent, it's just cope. It's just it's just trying to IT is because this is because sexual tractive veness is like russia, hierarchical IT just is for men and for women. I mean, for women, it's more physical, for men it's more to status one but IT is just bruising.

Um I know i'm particularly you have a general egalement arian outlook. If you're you're on left, no one wants to face up to that, particularly at the butt of the hierarchy. And so trying to say, oh no, the hierarchy doesn't exist.

Actually I i'm trying to persuade men to agree with you is one way thing well, exactly. But this is one thing that you can do. You probably can't persuade anything differently, but you can do know, get lighter and no one.

no one's have been guilty .

into an interaction.

I don't think he doesn't .

can try that. I mean, like this principle is there is that like human nature kind of removable, not completely like we do have a little bit of control over ourselves. And there are like there are there are cultural structures that will incentivise some things and not others and whatever there is room for maneuvre. But we basically have some fairly type um controls around .

us all times. It's what i've got in my head is kind of human nature is easier to constrain that is to enable in that regard, like it's already Operating at max R P M. And you can bring that down with social norms and and judgment and staff, but going the whole argument of A M to f transition, if you was a straight man not attracted to that person, regardless of how they present you are that homophily a transport bio, whatever actually don't know which of those .

two IT is um IT .

just doesn't play within the confines of a reality.

Yeah right. And actually that's one of the things that I think is so cruel about so much of the sort of discourse around trans like this is line. Actually there's a great there's right Andrew long too, who's who is trans and who disagrees with me on absolutely everything.

But I would say a great writer. I really, really good prose. And you has this line. When you are trans, you become permanently dependent on the kindness of strangers in the sense that basically no one passes is really hard to pass convincingly, particularly transition as an adult. It'll always be kind of physically obvious that you're not actually another female.

What you depend on is people playing along every single time, every social interaction for the rest of your life, so as not to feel dizzy. A and sometimes people won't do that. Little children are gonna at that well, like some else's person with assignments and do that.

No, people aren't always going to go on that. That's boys to play along, yes. And so you means you have this incredibly .

fragile yeah it's .

terrible yeah and what basically and that's what's being inflicted on people when they're encouraged to go through reversible surgeries, living their entire life dependent on the kindness of strangers for like to avoid complete psychological dissolution.

Doug's murray got this quote that he throws around saying, um you know when you reach true equality because you have to put up with the same level of shit that everybody else does yes and the lack of special disposition is the exact opposite.

And you I think it's all about dispositions but I think if IT was me and I was being cuddled, I would feel incredibly patronized ah and this is how I think you to even put regardless of whether the else the sees the bees, the tea as groups want to be together. It's not like t is just a group or g is just a group right within that you have a number of different factions of people and yeah I I don't think that that wouldn't be how I would want to be treated. What was your what's your theory on the Normalization of cosmetic surgery?

I think that unlike other industries, which are more obviously supplies demand, one of I think that there is a completely bottom less desire from women, in particular, for beauty enhancing treatment. And they will basically spend as much money as they can, right on average.

And that the thing that really drives a beauty story's technology innovation, so like as soon as something new comes on the market and is typically expensive in the only liberties and the trickles downs. Rever, like I didn't know this for instance. IT wasn't that long ago that actually dying your hair was considered to be quite unusual for women who are going great.

That was consider to be kind of in the realms of like credit, not extreme, like quite a you know, expensive time soon, whatever. Like he was at the edges of what was considered Normal for women, say, in fifty or sixty. Now I everyone dies like her basically.

Now going great is a weird statement. And we've had this like rattling up of the things that you have to do in order to be considered well grown. And the sky is a limit.

And so it's and it's just driven by what's available. So now it's not just wearing makeup, it's also fillers. It's also boat. Ox is also weird, wonderful facials ever. Like all all the things you can do, having your you know, having your nails down is like a standard as a completely standard thing, right? It's really expensive to have look perfectly many nails all the time and women women who don't have much money will sense how much money on this is amazing um and I mean what a wonderful time to have invested in the business industry because only see the test that the tech that they do is .

actually incredible what like like.

A K nails, one example, men, we know this, the the, the bottles of now wanted you can get in the pharmacy, the like few pounds, the manual that really bad. And last year, a few days, so presume back in the fifties, were used up and anyone does that. Now, maybe ten years ago, I started to become possible to get monikers that would last for ten days.

But they're quite bad for your nails because they have to like sore away are IT basically when they remove IT. But yeah, not very nice. And IT doesn't feel very nice.

So you don't not really want to do that now. You can get now vonage with which lost one month and it's more expensive than the other other. But like the technological product of Peter field, is always talking about like technological stagnation, right? Like we haven't improved on the jet engine and whatever.

We have improved so much of beauty tech in that period, it's amazing. And I think it's just because there's there's a bottomless market for IT. People don't actually care about flying across antics more quickly.

You know that's why they want male vanish. That last another two weeks.

Yeah, yeah. And fill is a little more natural and never to get wrong calls. And yi, I I, I like.

right? So it's a race. It's not only a race to the bottom which women haven't endless desire for, how much enhancement they will go for, the minimum bar like the overton window a the minimum base rate of that has also been raised up.

And it's because of introspective competition, is because now if you only did the beauty routine of forty years ago, you would look relatively bad compared to the other women in your pig.

This is precisely the same, but not this incentivized. Instead, it's just an unspoken about car tel across the board as why women slutsky modern men. It's a pricing forceful mechanism.

Yeah but instead of of being pricing forceful, it's just competition. Yeah but that is related to the female rival ary theory of body positivity, right? That if you can somehow manage to get a .

few competitors to .

eat their way out of your horizontal competition's yeah um does this bill burbeck, he's alive at red rocks some theater and he says, if you ladies could only support the W N B A, like you support a fat chick that keeps on gaining weight and is no longer a threat to you, they they be doing one numbers of me.

N B, A, IT is amazing whenever you go. Women possess es for other women because you look at the comments underneath any woman who's posted a sylvie ever. And I will always be like, baby, look amazing.

Baby, amazing. And and the expectation, I think, is then when those women post offices, they get the same thing back. And it's all very kind of, you know like I it's funny.

This is the nature of sort of human instinct, right? You're you'll do things with having no idea why you're doing that. Sometimes you're look back. You like, okay, like you you really David bustles something. I'm sure if you had this experience and you like, yeah, i've done .

right and you will keep .

doing anyway.

we'll think about why women buy luxury goods, like why is that that women are so concerned about having A A Y S L purse?

The goal in the guys.

not a so this was a really interesting study that I looked at, that I showed the the gift that highly interesting xu ally, competitive women with wealthy spouses wanted the most was a gift card to in the expensive department store. Precisely correct? Because they want to use yeah, the signal of my mate is so invested. Oh, you wanna go after my mate?

Yes.

he spent five grand on this tiny piece of leather that I Carry my phone in. He spent ten ground on this wedding ring or whatever, right? It's an in a introspective competitive threat display of mate investment. Yes, even when the mates .

not around yeah and because men are completely insensitive to they .

told you think we know the difference between a fucking mulberry handbag and something from like prime.

I don't think men noted things like money cares either. I think a lot of the beauty stuff, like some of IT, yes, is oriented towards looking Younger. You know, that's like that's always going to be such attractive. But I think a lot of the looking really well groom gives about signal to two girls and guys because are the ones are actually receiving the signals.

Did you see my post the study that was floating around last week to do with um that had dressing experiment that had been this is so this is where I uh originally justified using science my arrival ary theory of female body positive support.

A recent study published in personality and individual differences found that women who are high in inta sexual competitive ess are more likely to advise women who they perceive as potential mating threats to cut off more hah in an attempt to sabotage ge their attractiveness. The research is study four hundred and fifty women who have presented with hypothetical salon clients. Participants were asked to recommend the amount of her to be put up, put off for each women.

Women who reported high level of introspection ual competitive ess were more likely to recommend that clients have more hair cut off when the hair was in good condition, and the clients express a preference for minimal cutting. Another finding is that women advise clients of similar attractiveness as themselves to cut off the most hair. Participants effectively targeted women they perceived as being on the same attractiveness level, potentially to try and reduce their attractiveness. Longer hair is acute to youth and health.

Yeah, men love long hair. I don't think women realized how much men love long here. Like if you, if if you read, the men are actually incredibly easy to please, right? Just like physical cues.

But the problem is that there are two parallel state status games going on when IT comes to female beauty and appearance. One is attracting men, which is basically just looking beautiful, like fine and file. And then the other is, is, is the much more difficult game, which is the infrastructural competition game, which is about making yourself like cydaria in other ways.

And that's where the brands come in. That's where, you know, like keeping up with fashion comes in mental care mother. But but you have those two things going on parallel. And occasion they'll come attention, occasion they'll be some trend there .

on our solutions only trade .

up which makes you fashionable, but the men don't like.

yeah, that's interesting.

Yeah like short hair would be an example of, it's quite a right to be really popular. But I S O N G S.

Be happy with girls .

just permanently wearing .

legings like hot leggings, like gym shark leggings, something like just what just go out in those with heals yeah like IT .

is very basic yeah but then again but then I mean, also part of what's driving faction is the fact that game manoa over well over a percentage fashion and they don't absolutely no interest.

no.

So that's why you have like really skinny women on catch walks and stuff like it's partly because the cloth kind of hang is easier if if everyone's a small sample size to deal with the clothes like this in everyone. But do I think it's also because the more in georgy's look is just considered to be more beautiful by gay man?

See, the Victory secrets have made the radical decision to go back to using hot models. They tried three hundred pound manikins. They tried a trans person.

They tried a man, they tried the captain of the U. S. Socket team. And radically, now they're just going to use hot checks.

You know that jim brand, lily lemon like expensive gym where I can't 的 and I it's discussing anyway， they used to have a rule that they didn't even stock sizes over like A U K. S. Twelve or U K. Forty like the average woman is a sixty .

that's a smart aversion of what aac robe infected where they wouldn't give away their clothes to homeless people that just burn them. Yeah, I don't even give them a way to a like acceptable customers let alone yeah yeah no I really think .

that little man and actually the guy who found that would say quite forty like I don't want fat rs or own my gloves basically like they knew that having IT being associated with skinny woman was aspirational. But then they change that in twenty .

twenty ish because .

then and now they now they have loser promise models and is a fashion. Now, when asked.

is Perry and gentleman love you? I really, really enjoy. Bring anyone your podcast, create your writing. great. Where should people go if I want .

this stuff getting? So my pocket is called man with, it's on youtube, subtle places. You get your pocket. My first book was the case in sexy revolution, which came last year.

I'm working on another one as well, which is going to be out in about eighty months, which is on motherhood, fatlings, birthrates, all of this stuff. And I said i'd just write. I'd work too much. I write for too many places, like countless places. I'm on twitter.

Everyone should go read. The case against the sexual revolution is phenomenal. I'm excited to see what you do with the next one. Thank you for today.