#750 - Dr Rhonda Patrick - The Most Important Daily Habits For Health & Longevity
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Hello, friends, welcome back to the show. My yesterday is doctor on the Patrick. She's biomedical scientist, researcher and a podcasts. M determining the best actions to take for enhancing our health and extending our lives has grown more chAllenging there, an unlimited number of wildness approaches at our disposal. Thankfully, doctor patric has dedicated her entire professional life to identifying the most evidence space strategies for improving our health and longing. Vi, expect to learn if low omega three es are worse for you than smoking cigarettes.

What runs thoughts are on vapor in nickel, in the best foods to boost your metabolism, the once a week workout that can d age your heart by twenty years, how to get the benefits of heat tech power if you don't have a sooner, the terrifying health risks of being to sedentary and much more. This was a lot of fun. I've been a massive fun of wonders for a long time, and it's nice to see someone who's focusing on the exercise side as well as the diet side.

This seems to be the subsection sion with diet is the only thing that you can manipulate. Meanwhile, all of the exercise protocols kind of get forgotten. And runner is definitely in both camps.

So I think there is tons and tones to take away from this. Plus, i've actually started in CoOperating some of the training protocols into my weekly, which is both painful, savage and hopefully going to make me die later. So i'll report back in eight years.

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Are low omega trees worst than smoking cigarettes?

Um I don't know that they're worse. So omega three fats zr you know they're essential for many things. And I think you're referring to one specific study that came out of dr. Bill Harris group.

He's the head of the fat asked of researches to tune he is actually the pioneer of the omega index test which is how you should measure your or meg three levels um they're measured in our red blood cells rather than what you are nine nine person of the time find if you get omega its plasma levels. So red blood cells take about one hundred and twenty days to turn lovers so was a long term marker of your omega. Whether if you go and get a omega plastic test is kind like, what do I eat for dinner in the last week, right?

So you you may have had a bunch of salmon, but maybe you don't usually eat salmon. So so anyways, the magic index is a way to measure. Or meg, three levels. And he had going to study looking at omega levels and was called all cause mortality.

So people dying from all sorts of non accidental causes, cardio ashlar diseases, always at the top of the list, because that's pretty much what everyone's dying up, let's think, the number one cause of death in most develop countries. And so um he was looking at all cosmetically and corporate that with you mega index, which is centrally as measuring omen pati asset levels. And um nobody found was that the people that have a low omega index that would be four percent or less had and then comparing to people that had a high omega index, so that would be eight percent or higher.

So people that have the high omega index had a five year increased life expectancy compared to people would pull up. Now people in the united states, on average about a four to five percent of mega index. So it's pretty standard, pretty standard, I would say, in terms of like what people in the U.

S. Have in terms of of their mega three versus japan, where the italy sea, their mega three index is that ten percent. So and they have a five year increase, life expectancy, by the way, I compared to people in united states.

Um so what he also did a him and his his colleagues looked at they satisfied the data and looked at other factors is a collectivity you know B M I smoking? And this is where I got super interesting because um and I I I just the graph of the data does IT like more justice you because you can visually see IT. But he looked at all cosmetically.

And people that like live the longest were, of course, the high omega index with no smoking, right? So like non smokers, they are the longest life expectancy. And then people with the lowest life expectancy were smokers with a lower megaton index. But then when he looked at people that smoked but had a high omega index, either there getting lot of fish or supplementing, they are the same life expectancy as people with low omega y, but didn't smoke.

So in other words, having a low omega index was like smoking with respectable cosmetically and that, you know, and of course, I get all the smokers that, oh, so all I have to do in seven and like, no, no, no, no, no, that's the wrong way to think about, you know, I think, I think most people now know smoking is terrible for your health. And IT and IT goes back to this idea, this framework, that I like to think about nutrition, which is, what do we need, right? Instead of, like always focusing on what to avoid.

Because if you focus on what to avoid, you still made up of getting what you need to run your taboo. Sm, to run. You know, neurotransmitter synthesis is in all of that. So omega three, five acts hugely important for many things and we could talk hours for that. But with respect of smoking, it's really quite you know it's kind of a stock is standing when you just look at that graph and they're like overlaid or you're like, oh, wow, not smokers are with low omega are living as long as smokers with high omega.

Do you think that this is a direct cause of the omega series? Or is there some healthy use of bias that upstream from the kinds of people who are the kinds of people that are like people that will have make three in the diet?

Great question. So um with this type of data, which is observation data, it's always a correlation. So you can never definitely ly say it's cause by a causation. So yes, there could be IT could be a healthy user bias. There were other factors that were accounted for.

But I will say this smoking, everyone thinks about smoking and lung cancer or the cancer risk, right? The actually really the biggest problem is smoking is heart disease. IT is a huge it's so when you so here's the thing that I like to think about, like with respective smoking and disease risk, smoking in a dose dependent manner will increase your risk for lung cancer.

So in network, the more cigarettes that you smoke, higher the risk of cancer. But it's not a linear increase with respect to cardiac disease and heart attack risk. So you can just have a little bit of cigarettes and your your heart disease risk. Sky rockets and omega three is one of the biggest things that IT protects against is heartsease ase, right?

Doctors prescribe IT so there's spent randomized control trials where people are given high dose omeo purify to um in the form of either E P A which is one of the marines verses or a combination of dh N E P A and a variety of cities have shown that like cardiac rst, a risk of of dying from the is dramatically lower and people that are given a mega is compared to a placebo. So you know the fact that the the non smokers with um allow member three index are probably affecting is affecting their cardiac health. Inflation tion is a big also big driver cardiac disease and omega trees are really good at lowing inflation tion in many different ways. So yet sort of a long way did you know answered your question is no, you can't definitely ly say that healthy user bias isn't involved.

but there's a mechanism that we could .

see how that would work there is and you know, again, there is adjustment for other health factor. So you would think that that would cheer up.

Let's say that someone goes, I had even thought about omega trees. I should probably optimize those. What's the eighty twenty of getting good omega three in your diet? Someone might struggle, see food kind of hard or expensive to cook at home. Where would you send them for getting IT from diet, getting IT from supplementation? What do they need to know?

So I think I talked about that to make three index. And again, you want to get a or hire s always, always good to measure things. But this been study's done, where people with a low megory index of the standard american, basically four percent, if you give them about two grams a day of a mega three, they can raise.

There are mega three index from four percent to eight percent. So that would be a supplemental form pretty too gramme. So i'll just give you to give you some perspective. You know physicians prescribe what's lavasa which is A D H N E P A athletic form.

We can talk about different forms of um of the three and they also prescribe uh the eba which is a highly peer E P A form and they prescribed him at graham in the ground dose of four grams per day. So that's twice as much as two grammes a day, which is what i'm getting out. It's a barely safe dose.

And so two grammes the day can raise people from four percent to eight percent. Think that's a really good sort of starting point or the average person that I take experimentally hier doses. But but you know I think generally speaking, it's pretty safe for most people to take two grams a day and you're gonna get that high omega three and x at eight percent.

Where are they going to go? How are they going to access without getting some norwegian farmer that's squeaky fish into a barrel and and doing IT holistically himself? What can you say about assessing the quality of I I even remember called deliver royal tablets back in the day, this all sorts of Opera, before there was even a podcasting universe to kind of scrutinise IT. What do people need to know if they're choosing their omega three supplement?

I think choosing a megory simply IT is um we actually have a lot of data now a days and we have access to that data quite easy because of a lot of third party testing sites that go out and they just, Randy, get visual supplements off the grocery store shelves and they say, i'm onna take this supplement and made a measure important things, i'm gonna asure. The concentration of the omega E P D H.

Is the concentration in there what is stated on the bottle i'm going to measure? no. So fish, it's being isolated for its it's it's an oil, it's in the fat, right? So um fish also have contaminants.

They have pcbs, they have mercury, among others. And so measuring those contaminants is important because this oil generally pursued. But you went to make sure a good job was done.

So those contaminants are measured and then um oxidation. So omega series are a polling on saturday, the acid prone to ox dating. And so you don't want to get something that has an oxidation be greater than ten.

So anything greater than ten of total oxidation you want to avoid because it's like consuming ranted fact right rans and lipid like you don't want to do that. So so those things are all measured and um their sources out there. So consumer lab is a new third party testing site that you know they just there's a lot of affordable brands that you can find because some supplements are very expensive.

So I do like to kind of send people there because I have no affiliation with consumers that, by the way, I just like that. I like I use them. So I like that you can go and find A A pretty decent quality facial supplement. If you're a data er like me, you can take this upper level and you can go to the international fish oil standard site I F O S.

They just I mean it's like data party, like they give you so much data, but like you have to like no to do with IT, so they measure all these things, but like IT everything else, right um and they also tell you the form is in. So I mentioned athletic for the prescription form is also triggers IDE form. Those are the two main forms that you can find visual supplement or a megory supplements in and um generally speaking triglyceride's m is is the most by available regler ory form is what.

Is the form that you're eating fish. The omega es are intrigant less right form. When the omega es are purified, they take IT out of the trouble's red form and they purify IT.

And it's in an ethos r form. Some companies then retest ify IT back into that form to make IT supreme and more by available available exactly. But not everyone does that. And so if you get an athlete or form, which is what is prescribed, most people that are getting prescription form movement in three to help prevent cardio active disease, they're taking athletes or form.

The thing to know is you have to take IT with a meal and preferably with a higher fat meal because IT is abroad, you will absorb so little if you're taking IT on empty summer is very important. And um I didn't want to get into all the new ones, but I mention two grams a day of omega three will raise your omega three index from low to high, right? Four percent, eight percent. Well, if you really kind of look at the form people were taking, trig less ride vertige athletes or you know they had to take less of the truck list are right form to get there. But so I like to just average out and say too but um so if you can get trigger right format is a great form again.

how much salmon are called ha bit? Do I need to wait a week if I was going to try and get this through my diet right?

I mean that that's a question that I don't have empirical data to back up, but also so so here's my sort of thoughts on that um I do think that wild, the last consuming, is one of the best words of a number three, because that is a fish that has a very low level of contaminants like mercury, pcbs, program or prints. I guess this usually measure prints of the fish ripe. So samon d would be a great force.

Now how much of that you have to eat? Uh, it's really you know depends on the cooking method like how cooked was IT because you can degrade some of the omega three are somewhat he's insight. So I don't know how much you'd have to do a test.

So you'd have to say, okay, I typically eat them in two nights a week or three nights a week and and then you went to wait one hundred and twenty days, right? Because IT takes that long for your red letters to turn over OK. I know here's the problem.

Just tell me how much Simon I need to wake. Come on.

I don't know. I at least at least I would say you probably have to supplement on top of that. I don't know, twice a week necessarily gone to go from four percent to eight percent.

But if you were to do, you know, I would imagine a lot of the people that care about this, listen to this protocol, will think, right? I'm going to find a good quality, uh, low ox da triggs's ed version of omega trees that a responsibly source that I like the look of. I'm gna take two grams of that per day. And i'm probably going to trying to have some sort of fish meal twice per week. Does that seem realised?

That's absolutely kind. That's what I do. I mean, I didn't. That's what I I do. I do up to do so a little bit more but like I said, you know, I like I take IT throughout the day that mathies .

you mentioned about smoking. Man, did you see that the U. K. Is thinking about introducing IT? Looks like it's going to introduce a disposable vate ban countywide .

literally is there on disposals?

yes. So know the kind of liquid that people, that e liquid that people put into the these huge things that look like local dusties? Yes, so those will still be so people can still get the non disposable VP liquid plus them contraptions you need to make IT work. But the elf ba, the esco bar, that stuff, what are teenagers .

getting their hands on? What are junior? Are they getting much as as possible? Just more is .

more arduous to be. You go by this thing and then you get the liquid and then you fill IT with the liquid and all the rest of IT. And the flavors are a little bit more tough to baLance.

But yeah, it's the disposable stuff. There's a couple of comments about an environmental impact because they do you know the batteries you are basically thrown away a battery with some residual negative and IT. Um not good but more not good is the fact that teachers in the U. K. Have found that like a non insignificant percentage of school children are dependent on disposable vapor.

okay. So I was going to say I don't there's like I could see arguments either way. I am personally as a parent and I have talked to teachers. I mean, it's insane. Huge problem in in, in many schools work in the us, yes, in the us, waving in class, in the .

bathroom wealth. Thirteen year old vb detectors in the terms of british schools.

no, it's a problem here to is such in public schools. And so I I personally like and bias and I like good like I don't want this is like this. It's it's so eat and it's like begum flavor it's like it's like gear towards I almost feel like is was there are pushed to I get them earlier but you know ah so in that regard on board, to be honest.

have you looked into the dangers of vapor much at all what you think .

about I I know i've tweed a couple of studies I haven't on a deep dive on IT. I mean, I I know there some studies about it's still like long issues but like I don't know IT was like contaminants. Are he checking in with the you know? So no, I haven't done a deep right, but I do plan on doing a deeper dive into like that world of technica teen bing and .

now the time with this U. K. ban. So yet i've been thinking about IT for a while, has the introduction of fruit. E flavor vapor like Sparkle rainbow unico dust flavored vapor and and stuff which are easily accessible, pretty ty cheap. Four thousand pups or two thousand pups or whatever, they last quite a while.

Has that been a net positive or negative? Because it's certainly allowed a lot of people who were previously smokers and cigarettes are no matter how bad you think the vapor are, cigarettes are so much worse, like twenty times worse, based on the stuff that i've seen as an uneducated reader of non scientific journals are. But how many more people have been the end of the wedged into a neck independency? Because it's more convenient because the smoking bans you cannot do IT inside tastes Better.

It's just a more enjoyable experience. The hat is very, very high and fast. Uh, so I wonder whether the introduction of the vae world has been a net positive or negative against cigarettes because to meet cigarettes seem a mark omans got this great joke where he says that smoking and actual cigarette now is so socially like push back again that if someone saw you in an ally way and you were secretly trying to smoke a cigaret, they asked what you were doing, you'd say that you are killing a hooker. Because like that more socially acceptable.

Is IT still like that? And so I haven't been like the last time I went to, I wasn't like amsterdam twenty fifteen. I was shot by how many people who are smoking.

Mainland europe's different. There are different breed. Italians to spanish, ed the french. The eating quests on at ten P M. At night, just chain smoking with a glass of red wine.

They're na live to one hundred and five IT doesn't matter, right? They're different. They belt different over that.

I didn't know what's going, but you know what is just kind of brings back to the your your first point was the smoking and you make three in dt, japanese men smoke pretty and .

and .

they they're living on average log and they eat a lot of fish, right? Max, much as .

possible eat in a fish. But so he's another thing. Um max luga max, no, I don't.

Guy, you should. He's very much in your world, a genius food guy. Role code de, he introduced me to these things called nick nex.

So they are like very um catholic ucs, like nicotine mints I guess and um just nickey as a new tropic. Ah niki is an improve of focus. Attention seems to be like that big at the moment.

But then the pouches zines and snow and stuff like that, there's a lot of questions about what's that doing to your gums, what's actually in that these flavorings in them now where the flavorings is coming from. So it's like this permanent sort of cycle of something new comes in and oh, that might be really great. And then IT comes out the body imagining, like, we don't know what's in IT and I might actually be really dangerous for everyone.

So someone someone that's in their thirties and in that world that like, i'm not in is the is is who mentioned to me? Like, have you looked into negative? Because I like I used these then then yeah and and i'm just like, what is this like .

this is like an an universe.

I have got to look into all this because like eventually my son will be you know of the age and so that's that's kind of what started my my interest in doing a deep back on next team is like, okay, well, is there a negative effect? Like maybe there's a trade off. There's always a trade off.

There's always a trade off. So what is IT? What is IT? right? Very interesting.

Yeah, i'm i'm fascinated by what's what's downstream from new technologies, whether IT be legitimate technology, like typical sort of screen social media, virtual reality apples knew had such just came out recently, or its health technologies, or is deliver livery mechanisms for things that we used to have. But this isn't a new game.

What does that actually mean? So yeah, talk to me about time restricted feeding because for a long time that was like the hot new girl in school and everyone loved IT and IT was really interesting. But IT seems like the trend is swing at least a little bit away from time, restricted feeding, especially on the morning. what? How do you conceptualize all of this now?

So timer rated feeding or timer did eating? You know, it's a form of innovate fasting, right? And I think that many people, when they think about international te fasting, they think OK, well, I just need to skipper meal.

I need to like have a period of, I need to extend my period of time. I am not eating in the easiest way to do that. Kip, skip a meal.

Um and that's kind of what happened to so you know, doctor sch, an panda, a good friend of mine, big union biologist, researcher or does a research on time feat. And um you know we talked about this like almost ten years ago. Essentially there's a circadian reason.

To eat your food within a certain time window and then have a period of rest and fasting, right? So everything on our body runs on a clock and including our metabolism. And um so we're most insulin sensitive in the morning, insulin sensitive in the evening, right?

So you know your black lugal sells will go much higher with the same carbon ydych intake in the evening versus the morning. Even just calories the same, everything is the same. There's also some argument to be made by you just need a period of rest like you're gut digestion.

All that like energy is being diverted to do that when you're digesting food like that, that's a big thing. And there's also a lot of responses that happen after you eat me, causing information and things like that. The divert energy there.

So it's taking energy away from other things like repair. So so repairing processes usually happen when you're in a fasted state. So just like when you're sleeping, your brain shuts down, right? Like your brain.

If you didn't sleep, your brain is not going to repair. It's not going to stop like you need that rest period. Well, the same goes for like other organs like they need a rest period.

And and so it's really important to have that rest period, right? So the longer the rest the longer the rest period is, the Better in terms of like having enough energy to like do those repair processes things like that require energy. And this also know other reasons as well.

But generally speaking, um there's an argument why it's good to have a rest period, a fasting period, right? And is that does that need to be sixteen hours? Doesn't need to be twenty, doesn't need to be twelve.

Like I don't I don't really know that we know the exact time um to that. But what we do know is that talking about this to the public was translated to I need to skip breakfast that was like the take home was okay. I need to do a sixteen hour. I need to do, eat my food within eight hours and do a sixteen hour fast. And the way i'm going to do that is i'm going to skip breakfast and keep extend unch.

Twelve have done eight drays between them and and that .

was exactly and that was that was kind of the the take home the practical implication there that everyone started doing um the problem with that is that you know so our muscle is the biggest reservoir for assets, just like we store logos as black aging and our liver or muscle, we store triglyphs, you know we fat as regler ized.

In our adaptive issue, we don't really store us, I mean not really store me know methods, but you can kind of think of the muscle as a reserve for because when we have a period of um basically we're not getting an intake of a minal assets. We need IT. We need a minal assets to survive like we need them.

And so our body pulls from our muscle. So in the morning, if you think about IT, what's the longest period you go without having a minos when you're sleeping? So breakfast is actually really important. It's it's important to get protein.

I know assets in that first meal because if you extend that me, if you extend that fasting period by skipping breakfast, your body's going to be like, I need protein and I gotta make a bunch proteins to, like, have my heart be my kidney's function, right? So it's going to pull me no assad out of your muscle. And so um that can cause muscle ropy, particularly if you're not doing resistance training. So amino acid is one way to stimulate muscle protein sympathies um the other way to do IT would be resistance training. So there have been studies done like for example, women that are doing time strict feeding, they will not lose muscle mass if they're doing resistance training.

So does IT mitigate the gains of resistance training by doing that?

IT mitigates the the atrophy. So it's mitigating.

sorry, does time restricted feeding ee skipping breakfast limit the gains made from resistance training? If both of those things are done together.

not if you're getting enough protein, I mean, we'd not not study at least. I think I think if your not getting enough protein within twenty four hour period, yes. But like if you're getting so so to get your gains in.

And i'm sure you've had people on talk king about this, but like the R D A for protein is is zero point eight grams per kilogram body weight and that was like IT determined like forever ago when we were using older techniques. We as in scientist s not me. I haven't personally done this experiment.

Um the scientific committee was using techniques that uh underestimated a minister losses. So so these committees were set up to determine, okay, how many how much mini methods, you know, how what quantity of a mini massage do we lose every day and how much do we make sure we have to get each day to replunged that right? And so those losses were underestimated.

In other words, we're losing more than they thought. And so what what does that mean? That means, oh, maybe the R, D, A for protein is too low.

So people like doctors to work, phillip PS and others have now redone these experiments with like new or more sensitive technologies because that's what happens, what time, right? We get Better technologies, more sensitivity. And they've now determined that is actually one point two grams per kilogram to just bare minimum prevent lost another fifty percent .

on top of was a person on originally end.

If you're actually doing if you're physically active, if you're doing resistance training, that goes up to one point six grams for and well, one point was the minimum. But like to like build muscle, yes, to get the gains are talking about and there's actually been studies done in older adults. This is a big problem. Older adults are, they're not a sense up to amos is called anosike resistance. So with the same protein intake, they won't build as much muscle if there are sixty five versus when there were thirty.

So granddad needs to be cooking .

twice as many states, too many six. And there been looking at the actual rda of older adults get zero point eight grams for kilogram body weight, and then the other group gets one point two grams for kilogram body weight. The group that got one point two has much higher muscle mass gains just actually prevents the atrophy that is happening just with age.

Okay, we're getting back to the time restricted yet eating thing. yes. How should someone incorporate this into that lifestyle? What IT sounds like you saying is have a high protein meal at some point early in the day, but if you're also saying that it's important for us to have a period of recent digest so that it's digest western repair can actually happen.

How should people think about about doing that, especially given the fact that, sorry, later in the day, instant sensitivity is sued anyone that did carb night a car backloaded fifteen years ago because they read a body building 点 com forum like me knows that。 So you've kind of got this always good to eat some things later in the day. There's this skill down that way, but it's also, we can't miss breakfast so like that just sounds like eating all day to me. When do we when do we stop right?

Um yes so I went out often to change IT there but yes um the the time of shooted eating okay there's there's a couple good ways to think about about IT. You wanted stop eating about three hours before you go to bed if possible. Okay.

that's last Better of food in miles.

Yes yes because it's still you gotto add another five. So last bit of bit of food of the mount doesn't mean are now in the fastest day. You ve got to calculate five hours after that takes about five hours to digest, okay.

So after the five hours after your last bit of foot mouth, now you're in the fastest state, right? So that's going to be when you're slept. Most likely um you don't have to skip a meal. You can eat your food within an eight hour period and vast for sixteen hours without having skip a meal most of time unless I guess unless you're an entertainer and your meals do come later then but still you can still like everything is shifted over.

And yes, you'll be, you know, less intellective later in the day, but you can like, do some air squats for two minutes like you could there there there are things you can do to improve insulin sensitivity and also to improve lucus black lucus levels like later in the evening. If you're having a mean, we can talk more about that later. But anyway, so there are things you can do.

I think that the way to think about IT is the easy way to stop eating about three hours before bed. That's a really easy. And also you're sleepin proves because when you're digesting, if you eat like rap before you get a bad, your bodies like awake. It's a awake right? It's like digesting and using energy.

It's not even beyond what's happening philologically, just the sense of being full. That was a club promote for fifteen years, which meant that we would work from, we'd set the club up at nine P. M.

We'd finish IT two in the morning. And i'd get back in the food that i'd prepped that morning. The day before the morning would be that waiting for me. Well, you know having eaten in six hours, seven hours, something like that case, i'll get in now eat but just the discomfort of having a lot of food in you like even that sucks right um and you know .

the other thing is with with thinking about IT, I think a lot of people got all like, you know the tie over over the fact that like if you looked at the the timer sure defeating and the weight loss. A lot of the weight loss was due to color ric restriction because people were just actually eating less. They were skipped meals and it's like, yeah so a lot of weight loss I mean, when IT comes to weight loss, like calories in, calories out matter, like energy baLance, right? So that's important.

I think that were a lot of people like up time sure thing doesn't matter because it's all about college restriction and it's like, well, yeah, you're looking at what end point are you looking at you trying to lose weight than collect restriction like you should be? Not right? And most people that are like obese even await they can I they can actually fast and not lose much muscle, like some people will go on a fast or do you know limit.

There is little skip meals basically. And they can lose like up to thirty percent of their weight will come from muscle. So really crazy unless the resistance in training and .

resistance training, if you're having sufficient protein outside of that intimate and fasting window.

not necessarily um that will help you gain more but like mitigating .

the because .

of you got stimulus.

K what would you suggest as a good. The selection of breakfast that people could have the kind of meet the criteria that you're talking about here.

What would be some of the things right eggs would be like, like for depending on your body way, you know some if you if you're do, you're plugin to have like five eggs scrambled days are great. You got I mean it's got the protein and eggs are really high and they have like routine and calling in them and coins important for brain function. Um routine is much higher and Greens like kale, but there's some in at least passion aded eggs from the the farmer in the non convention on eggs, whatever they are called this are terrible.

But what is that just to interject that what is that to know about eggs? How do you select your .

eggs passion raised um because you want them to eat like grass and stuff the chickens because they're they're getting like routine from the Greens. And routine is really important for brain function and eyes function. I would love to talk about that more when we talk about caring to functions because IT actually there's like a lot there's not enough routines and egg to substitute what's done in clinker study, but there isn't KO.

So but still good to get a source of IT. So I think I think egg is is a really good source of um protein for breakfast because it's you know it's just it's very nutrient dance with the calling as well. Colin, really high in ego .

bacon and eggs taking eggs yeah .

I mean like whatever your jam is like for the for the protein bacon and eggs taken eggs you know um I like to also have some smoke team in the eggs, so like my omega three.

What about the people who are training first thing in the morning? Let's say that they ve got ta get to work. They're part of that are six I M crossing crowd. They're not going to be up at four thirty doing the scrambled eggs so that they can digest IT in time to go to front.

They're gona probably do a protein shake like way protein.

So you would still even for the people that are up early and then go to on train, it's such a high priority that you would still suggest consuming some protein .

prior to working hard to get at one point six and then and then like, you know, so still fill lip s like to use this analogy. I I give him credit for IT. Like where you're squeeze the last drops of the cloth.

Like for people that are like a really trying gain muscle mass, like it's a really their thing. You can go like up to like two, you getting like two gram's per killer grand body way. And so I mean, there are some people that like so you really trying to like gain that muscle .

uh you you .

do yeah you do need unless no unless you're just going to eat like you know a lunch, dinner and lots. Not a protein, but it's really not that it's hard to get that much protein.

We had this a like rural uni, which was no one flukes one gramp pound of body weight. No one accidentally goes through the day and looked back at the macro s the evening goes, I hit a hundred eighty grams of protein without thinking like IT has to be conscious. There's no casual diet unless you went to win all you can eat buffet. And even if you do that, IT seems like the upbound for protein absorption within one meal is kind of like fifty grams .

in any case yeah so forty, forty.

forty yeah so you like, okay, well, well, don't you manage to get through four stakes? But how much of that is actually going to be used by your body? So um yeah, that's an interesting one. It's I I found a fascinating kind of observing this IT intimate fasting to we still need to do this, but we need to integrate, but we need to front load the protein earlier in the day, and also to just alleviate the protein debt that your one point six per kilo of body weight needs to hit by the end of the day.

Yeah, I think that IT makes sense when you just think about IT like you if you're skipping a meal, you're going to be losing muscle mass like especially you're not doing any resistance training and that's like, okay, well then I probably shouldn't skipping a meal but I can still do timer start eating you know by just stopping my meals before three hours before bed and then you know you're going to get a period of fasting really.

You just want that repair mode. You know you want that repair mode and and there's been clinical studies that have looked at other n coin's besides weight loss and IT does make a difference at IT that there's improvements and things like lood pressure, for example, things like that. I don't know that you're going na get the repair like there's animal studies magianism ally looking at that. You not I don't know that were gonna get that and human data on that, it's going to be hard to do, not impossible. But it's it's steffon a cost money to get a clinical trial doing that sort of work.

Talk to me about the rest of your framework for approaching nutrition, making decisions about food.

Um i'd like I said I really like to make decisions about you know so I did my post cal research with dr. Bursar and um he's sort of a legend and his ninety six now and that but you know he specialized for some towards amid the end of his career on micro o nutrition right these are important minerals, invitations and amos is and fat assis that you need to get from your diet to run your metabolic.

And when I say your metabolic, I don't just mean that burning, I mean DNA repair, I mean you know making energy, I mean making dupine and serponel and everything, right. So um met a lot of minerals or co factors for the enzyme s that are doing that. In other words, if you don't get those minerals, then the enzymes aren't going to be working optimally.

And so you know things aren't to be working optimally. And if you're talking about things like repair, what happens is you get this in city's damage magnet siems, a perfect ample half the country doesn't get enough magnetism, which is about three hundred and twenty milligrams for women and four hundred and twenty for men and so what happens? When are getting the magnesium? Well, nothing.

As long as you know you look at the mayor and fine, right? You not like, oh, the image is happening. You know you can see IT on a daily basis if you could be so much more apparent to us.

But um it's insidious. This is occurring a little bit each day. And as decades build up, you are not going to be repair ring damage to your DNA.

And DNA damage is a major, major cause of unco jeni mutations. These are mutation that lead to cancer. So then you get into your fifth six seven second of life and you got pinky OA cancer or you got fill in the blank cancer.

Um and there are of course, studies associating magnesium m intake with cancer and study's looking at dina repair as well. So the way I like to think about nutrition is what do I need to get for my diet that is essential for for me to be functioning optimally, for me to prevent the damage that can lead to nurture general disease to cancer? Um that that the kind of the way and then also, what do I need to get in terms of like my micrometres like proteins are really important. What I I need to think about like how much protein to get right, because actually happens you started to dinner when you peak muscle mass thirty five, twenty thirties, I guess. And then as you get into your forties, you started to lose a lot more, like eight percent per decade, and then you get into seventies.

And because of people.

so that's how I like to think about IT words, like, okay, I need to get magnesium. I need to get omega three. I need to get item in K, I need to get.

So what foods are rich in those? And a lot of minerals and some beamin, it's it's spread out among different food groups. So vegetable les, particularly graf y Greens, are really high in magnesium. They're high in calcium. Their high fully like we need for late.

This is like amazing uh to talk about this experiment that my mentor did back in like that was like the eighties but um essentially like he took he took animals and gave me a for fully deficient diet in one group and then the other group. He a radiated the mice like ionizing radiation, like the stuff that give you cancer, okay and and he looked at double stranded breaks to your DNA and that's like the start of DNA damage that can lead to cancer. Ionizing radiation causes double strand bricks in your DNA, and he compared the two groups and they were identical. So not having fully in your diet was like being ionized, getting ionised radiation.

Or you can get yourself ionised as much as you want.

as long as you eat spinach. I mean, no, because it's going to the same thing is not eating spinach, but the point is that people know to avoid going in a machine that's gonna I right, but they don't think about, do I need full IT, do you know? So it's like that again. It's that what do I need to avoid mentality, which isn't it's not that you shouldn't think about like you do need to think about things to avoid. But we need I think the priority and the focus first is what do I need to get from .

my diet that's so interesting to, uh, tends toward demonization of certain food groups and awareness and concern about this is poisoning you. This is bad for you. This is something that you need to avoid, absolutely. But if you just avoided a turn of stuff, you still haven't got what you actually need exactly.

And if you focus on what you've actually need, guess what? You avoid time of stuff here. And so I also think I sort of has to do with this, like it's this learned helplessness ness mentality where it's like someone else is fall.

They are poisoning me. It's like, you know what I mean, rather than what am I not what am I not taking initiative to like, know that I need to get into my body? Yes, right.

works. They're poisoning me. It's the pesticides that is in then they are kind of to some degree.

But how are you do you about oxides in levi Greens?

Yeah so oxyartes are mostly high spinage not kill. And you know if you're juicing spinach every day and you have like kidney problems, that's probably a bad idea. So oxalates um you know if you're you're cooking this span edge that basically you know causes enzymes to degrade you these oxyde ates.

And it's not as much of a problem. Um but you know I think there's been again a demonization of IT. It's like it's like this anti nutrient to take.

This is a reason I shouldn't leave Greens because the oxalates and it's a new stone and the reality is, is that oxalates are you don't you you only absorb so much, particularly like if there's magnesium present and there's so much magnesium in these Greens, that's mostly not the problem that and the problem with oxyartes. Again, you'll get like that one case study with the woman with failed kidney center and that was ducking every day for leg years. And it's like, don't give me that example like that.

Now you're a power user of spinach.

It's really spinach. And some people have been saying you good stuff from spinning. It's really high in magnesium.

It's really high. Full IT was first isolated from my mentors, mentor Peter mital from spinach. But he discovered that vitamin, he discovered IT from any isolated from spinach is really .

high in spinage OK. So leave gres important yes .

um OK then you want to get b vitamins again for IT is b vitamin getting getting b vitamins sink. Um also you want to get iron. These are also important micro neutrons and minerals.

That's where you get me right. So red me for the iron and protein b vains it's got zh um as well. Poultry is another option, right? So these are good sources of um protein and other micrometres that you're not gonna get as much from plants.

What are you thinking about when IT comes to sourcing and choosing your meat?

Ah yes. So there's been been some studies that have compared like grasped cows verses like meat from grass with cows verses like conventionally raised cows. And I would say the biggest difference is, at least from the data that's been published, is for one the omega three and omega six fat acid profile.

So which makes sense if you if you're feeding a cow venture corn, and I think they're also have like it's like corn oil, like plots. You know it's like they're gonna have a higher omega six profile, right? They're gonna have more omega because that's corn VS. If you're going to give them like plants, they're going to eat plants, they're onna have a Better omega three to a maga six profile and and not exactly what you're fine.

So like even though meat isn't like the best worse ce of a mag 3， if you get if if you're eating, you know grounds be for a stake from a cow that was no prays is gonna a higher omega profile than than the conventional me? And there's you know there's some there's some argument to be made for that. It's like, well, then there's also things like, well, you know what you have to think about like what food um is there is IT like are they given food that's that's double in glassy? Like I don't know like what's you know how the corp the corn crop is like that tower growing lots of corn, right?

So you know there's you didn't sort of obsessed over everything you have to like. I think you have to sort of choose your battles, otherwise you can do go inside me. So you know there do do you have to eat pasta to me?

I don't know that you you do if you can, it's Better like not everyone can afford. Alec food is so expensive now too, right? So at the end of the day, like our bodies can handle a lot of damage, they really can.

But like that is only if you give them the things they need to repair the damage and be able to like me in a more, more optimal functional. So um that's kind of my my take on the the, you know, passion rates verses conventional. I personally do get past rays.

I'd prefer IT also the hormones. If they're not, I think generally speaking, they go hand in hand. They they y'll give hormones and antibiotics to cows and stuff and go, do I want to bunch antibiotics in my meat that i'm eating? right? Like that's another .

thing to consider. What do people mean when they talk about prioritising energy baLance? I hear this, and I have no .

idea of me. I think ultimately the calories in, calories out kind of thing like you know if if you're consuming like a ton of calories and you're not physically active like that, you're gona start storing or fat like it's you know just simple so that I would .

say the easiest way .

to think about IT is really just calories and calories that really does matter like IT really does like you're going. So you don't want to just eat eat tons and tons of food like you don't want to eat about bag potato chips like .

after you do your paton yeah and I guess going back to one of the reasons why intimate fasting was so popular was that its you don't really need to be as obsessive with your my fitness pal if you only have a six hour eating window because the lots of people it's tough to get over surplus during just six hours as long as you eating whole foods mostly uh and .

that's what IT comes down to. I think exactly that is that if like the people, their calicut restricting naturally when they're doing instrumented fasting, right? And so that's why IT IT all comes down to calories in, calories out.

That's what color c restriction is. You're restricting. You're not eating as many calories and you end up missing way. But if you eat whole foods, and I really do think like the helium movement back in when I mean, I was like fifteen, twenty years, I don't even know how long ago was that you are going to something. I think that's a really good way to eat because you're not just only eating me.

You're not just only eating plants, getting the broad spectrum of micro neutrons and there's other things in plants that are like peto chemicals that are benfica's as well, right? So it's not just getting the microbial trians is also getting these other you know chemicals that are like doing benefits al things in us that we know for sure for randomize control trials, doing beneficial things. So know that another added reason to have more diverse whole foods type of diet.

What are the most important things to consider when IT comes to improving cognitive function? A lot of people want Better focus. They want to be more productive. They want to improve their mood. They want to do all of those things, like one of the big movies when we think cognitive function.

So there's what I like to think of as there's definitely big movers. There's things that require effort and there is like a lower hanging fruit, right? So this is things that like you could take a supplement perhaps.

And I would say the big movers are the ones that, of course, gonna require more effort. Like that's always how IT is right? And IT is pretty clear. Now I don't think I think it's pretty scientific consensus that exercise, and particularly vigorous exercise, is one of the best ways that you can get a cognitive enhancement, you know memory, executive function, processing speed. So they've been studies that have been done in all the adults, in middle aged adults, in children like across the lifespan.

And it's just undeniable that getting your heart rate up, you know getting getting your heart rate up and blood flow up and sweating is going to make you smarter and feel Better. It's going to make you both. So um like there there was even one study that was sent an older adults and this was like a classic study that I I just remember I talked about for years, but other cities have like repeated since then.

But I was like twenty eleven and twenty two thousand and twelve publishing P N A S. And um this this the researchers took these older adults and they put him on uh year long intervention exercise programme and there is a lot of more vigorous intensity, so they are getting up about eighty percent max heart rate. So many ty five eighty percent max heart rate.

And i'm for one year they do this intervention um and after that year, they hadn't a two percent increase in their hip camp volume. So hip campus is a part of your brain that's highly involved in learning and memory. And they increased IT by like two percent.

So people in that age group loves between one two percent of their high camp per year. So they essentially countered that loss that out of you that they are they are age related in experiencing each year and um and apart. The reason that happens is when you're doing a vigorous type of exercise, you are increasing brain revenue, tropic or B D, and that is responsible for growing new neurons in the hy campus, is responsible for a plasticity.

So that's the ability of your brain to like, adapt and change to the changing enviro, which is what older adults don't very well. Your brains much more plastic when it's Younger like you, you can adapt the things. That's why that's saying you.

It's hard to teach an old dog new trix, right? And that's kind of work comes from. So B, D, F plays a role in that. You want more B, D, N, F, like you and exercise and particularly vigorous exercise.

If you're working your muscle so hard that they can't get oxygen to them fast enough and that's why save vigorous um then therefore rest to basically make energy without oxygen. And that happens by just using glucose and then you make lack ate as a by product and lack ae is what is signaling and increasing in D F. And lack tates.

Really when you can measure there's you know things that that you can buy and measure IT, but I don't think you need to I think you can just measure your heart rate and you're getting if you're doing your biggest intensity exercise, ten minutes, that's all I took was ten minutes to have improvements in cognition, uh, execute function, processing speed. So even just a ten minute workout and like I did one before I was came here like, that's like, that's my thing I do you know it's like I I want to be Young, top my game so you just can do ten minute work out. I could be high intensity interval training.

We are shifting between periods of vigorous exercise and kind of resting a little bit. And so you do these intervals or could just be like i'm going to do a twenty minute like and run and then i'm going to go, you know i'm going to do IT. So um excuse .

exercises.

The number one, I would say big move. As you said, it's also the most requires the most effort, the other things and this is where I kind of like i'm smiling because there was very recently a new study um one out of three very large randomize placebo control trials where they are giving one group a placebo and another group a multivariate OK.

This is a multiple de man which is the Michael neutrino have been talking about magney sian b vitamins ll late vitam K. Stuff people are not getting enough of they're not getting enough from their diets and um they gave older adults. So these are people that were sixty five of an older and um there were three different trials of this study.

He was called the Cosmos al, and there's about five thousand participants in total. And the evidence was clear that just giving them a multivitamin improved cognition and IT slowed brain aging, which was IT was estimated to slow brain aging about two years. And this is like, it's so it's it's funny because ten years ago I was like doing I was out there pod cat talk talking in podcast about huge studies that were coming out saying enough is enough, multivitamins are a waste of money, jump by them and they were seeing the exact opposite.

And they were terrible studies and I, like, tore them apart. But here we are, ten years later, complete the full circle. What's the easiest thing you can do? Like does that mean a Young person can take a multivu and is going immediately make them? I probably not surana.

It's something that you can start now and certainly older adults that made a difference. That's one. Um another one is again, I mentioned that there's other these photo chemicals in plants that are beneficial. They are in vegetables and they're in fruits.

So bluebook arries blueberry extract or even the equivalent of one cup of blueberries, this has been done like the equivalent one cup of blue ries improves cognition, executive function IT IT improves on memory um also processing speed. So that is something like if you're like, you know fast reaction time, I guess it's more relevant for like maybe someone who's athletic, but you know find more coordination, things like that multiple city showing this. I mean, there's been met a analysis showing IT.

This is across the lifespan spend studies and kids been studies in middle aged adults and their spend studies in older adults. And it's clear, blueberry ries make you smarter and they make you feel Better. Least they make me feel Better.

So blueberry is the king of fruits, I think. I mean, it's between blueberries, rasberry and pineapple, I think for like the top spot in my world difference.

Blue ries, yeah, no, blueberries are. So they have something in them called Anthony's, and it's what gives the bilberries there like pigmentation. Raspberry happened to babberly are very concentrated them in them.

Um they also have so Anthony's are a type of polyvore. They actually fly in the way they're type of polo. Polo al are a sort of wide class of fight to chemicals and fighting chemicals.

There's a lot of them, a lot of different types of them, and they really are beneficial in humans. And like I said, there's random ze control trials comparing giving this to tuba ebo. And if he was bad for you, then that would be clear, right? It's good for you. So h blueberries are at the top of the list for that for improving conditions unction low in fruit. How is easy to eat a couple blue's a day?

I it's literally hard to not eat cup .

of it's hard not to yeah so that would be another one. Um I think another one on my list would be similar to that would be coco park fano. So like from like dark chocolate um they have another type of policy o called catches and um the best one.

So there been studies, lots of studies on this, and it's mixed on this. So some studies are sure many of its they increase blood flow to the brain. They increase the basic lar flows so you can get an immediate effect where in a few, increase the blood flow with the brain.

Which what actually does this right? But we were talking low hanging for its easy to do to take a pill that would be something to do. IT is its improved cognition, executive function.

And there's a type called coyote a and I have no affiliation with them, but they've published there. They have studies published with their a proprietary blend, which is again um one of the highest concentrated, I would say, coco laval out there, the caddies consumer lab test to them. And i've seen i've seen the data.

It's it's very clear they're very high in in they just outcompete all the other brands out there and they also have the lowest contaminant. So they're really a good but expensive way to get those coco flamens wish are really good. And then the other one would be for recognition would be routine, which I mentioned earlier.

It's in eux not very concentrated. Its in kal very highly concentrated in kill, almost twenty four milligrams in three k leagues and I say three kaleb's because that's what I put in my smooth e so I i've calculated IT, but um so there's twenty four milligrams of glutton. Routine is a type of carotenoid like beta karoon like like go pee and tomatoes.

You heard of those things before. The routine is in that same category. IT is a cortina ID IT accumulates in the roads in the comment of your eye IT protects against singled oxygen from blue light like this light look at that and also the sunshine when you go outside the damages our ice IT causes my local degeneration and so routine and the exam and is another coroni.

They're in Greens and they protect against that but they also accumulate in the brain. And um they're been a variety of study, so they're been observation studies, core letting plasma levels of blue tine in the asana with certain cognitive score. So like Crystallized intelligence, older adults that have routine and zip and higher levels have more Crystallized intelligence so that the ability to use all the information you learn over a lifetime and like music um they spent randomized control trials looking at giving eight milligrams of routine.

Now I said twenty four and three kill so they give eight milligrams of routine. And something like twenty three milligrams is his anthem to older adults that IT improves neural, neural efficiency. So this is the ability to basically your neurons can function with less energy, which is nice. So that obviously improve of copy functions, the very energy demanding process. So routine.

I know. Yeah, I know it's an egg.

And yeah you know .

Colin ogc generally very important for brain function .

IT is yeah it's an important is important for britt underspend studies actually um with pregnant women. If you give pregnant women about five hundred milligrams of coin per day, their children score battle on the intelligence test. yes. So as I learned about this, of course, when I was pregnant and I was like, well, I was actually before it's printed, but that I was like figuring out like what i'm going to do, like what do I need yeah and that's why I hate so many eggs during pregNancy because they also supplement.

You've got like mastering babies. A ww, but so Colin .

is also important for sure in functions I get comes down to, again, trying to get everything you need from your food. And then no. Mega three, there has been so many around of my control trials and no mega series proving cognition, especially when there IT has to be two grams or more that we'll get the the mixed data if it's like a we gave him five hundred.

Milgram wasn't enough. The studies that are consistently showing improvements and cognitive unctions or at least two grams a day of the omega. So that's my that's my sort of, I think, low hanging fruit for for coding to function things you can do.

Is that the same strategy for battling neurodegeneration over time as well, the things that improve cognitive function? Now it's just the same one .

in the it's very similar because I mentioned brained revenue or traffic factor B D N that plays a huge role in battling nerd general disease risk. Um a lot of the the anthidium, the cattie s that are in things like blue ries and chocolate dark chocolate, especially when you concentrate the pattern. Those are they have anti inflammatory like properties, they have antioxidant perty and they're increasing blood flood the brain as well.

So they're getting more oxygen to the brain. They're getting more nutrients to the brain. All those things play a role bush for short term health, but also long term brain health as well. So it's it's both for sure. They're they're very much connected.

What happens when people get brain fog? I what is what is brain fog? I know IT feels like, but like what's going on?

Um yes, the brain fog, or as I like to call IT, A A reduction in mental clarity.

Anyway, i've just heard .

too many like people say they like brain fog, brain fog. Like and I got like this, like I was telling you, I got this new jerk reaction to that.

You got brain .

fog I did when people was like a brain fog. I can you but yes, IT is a thing. So it's um you when you have a reduction in a mental clarity IT feels like this brain fog and you that I personally think IT all comes down to food, I think IT really comes down to food.

And I mean when you're sick you have brain fog, but we can talk about how to over lapse with that. So I think there is really too big IT all has to do with meals in in in eating um so the first thing I think that's highly involved in this reduction in mental clarity or brain fog as people like to call IT, is what's called the postprandial gluchow SE response. So that means blood glucose levels going up after a meal.

And um what happens is this if you have a really high post predial glucose response, you're eating a high glass y mic index. Food is something that definitely like a refined carbon hydrate, for example, that will really smash you. Um you're going to a get this really sharp peak in glucose and then like a drop and or a sugar crash as people like to call IT.

Um and so it's really hard for your brain to to be functioning properly with that postprandial co response. And that's partly why you'll hear a lot of anecdotes and myself included, people that have tried a kidger ic diet or I used to always like to do podcast on a in a vast in state because um you're not getting that postprandial good ghost responses. One thing IT really sort of IT out.

but not .

everyone responds well to a cadoc diet. I certainly uh, don't think it's easy to continue on forever. So there are other things, obviously avoiding refined carbo hydrates is an easy no brain or right? There's nothing in there.

Any was what you need from there. Nothing, no micrometres s no process, right? Like you're not getting any from that.

So that would be one thing to avoid because it'll make sure you're not going super, super high. But you can still have IT um from from from a meal. And some of the things that you can do to mitigate that one would be exercise snacks.

So this is like doing a really short burst of intense, like vigorous exercise, eighty percent max heart rate for like one to three minutes. And you do with thirty minutes or thirty minutes up to an hour, either before after a meal. So you kind of do IT within this hour before or after a meal.

And what happens is that vigorous intensity exercise while you're shooting your heart rate up. It's it's hard to do met your increasing latte and IT doesn't take much. You get soaked up by the muscle and this is then um causing transporters, google transporters to come up to the muscle and opening the gates basically so that when you eat that meal the google s goes into your muscle more.

Anibal c you want to to go there and it's not you're not getting that like huge rise and then drop in the post with the postponed gx response. So that would be one thing. Excise nacks. Lots of studies out there are, especially with people type to ibs, have a problem, do you know maintain their bug liquid ables. The second thing would be food order, like the order you eat your mac on nut rends .

on the plate .

kind of so so I would say about ten minutes IT IT can be on the plate depending on how slow you eat. So if see if food order um there's spent studies again largely in people would type to abets to our issues regulating their black lucas. If you eat protein or fat ten to thirty minutes before carbon hydrate, IT can very much blunt and slow the post print of glucose response.

So if you have like let's say, you eat a canis ardans before you're going to go to a restaurant, you're going to eat out, you're presumed ly gna eat more terribly than you. What if you're cooking at home, right? Or you do a little protein shake twenty years before you're gonna go to a restaurant or whatever and that or before, like even just if you're going do a podcast, you need monumental clarity. You want to make sure that this is just eat the protein and and not have the the carbohydrates, right? Um so what that does is it's I mean it's doing essentially like increasing insurance so that when you do have the glucose.

it's corret. It's I mean, if you if you are going out for dinner, presume be something else you can do is trying to have the starter be a stake, tar tar unita, tar oysters, something like that and just be like, can we just wait an extra ten minutes on mains? Like however, along you think that we need, just give us another ten and then you've been capsule ted IT within the the time. Now I guess as long as everybody else is on board with that, otherwise someone to have a bunch of bread, and they just.

they want the whatever main cause to come. The worst thing is at the first right, we should IT is good. But like, take tatar first and then go for the bread, right? You will slow the .

look was response. This is a place in Austin called dean italian um it's just .

down the street from you you, you strong .

recommended please. Deans three folks and um the somewhere else that I went the other evening that was phenomenal. But deans, deans and three folks, the h two stake restaurants ago to the most.

But deans do this. They call IT a bridge crown. So it's like a literally looks like a little crown that comes out kind of about that size. There's a part of whip budden in the middle this thing, and it's glazed on top. It's got like a salt glaze. This thing is like track, it's so good and it's it's just there you arrive, you sit down, you ve got the drinks or whatever and then this thing arrives and you just on is impossible to not IT yeah so yeah almost getting is there something that we can do with this like preapproved ser appetiser to come after the aptitude around about fifty minutes if that's OK because doctor around this .

said so yeah so food order, you know is is something legitimately that's been studied empirical data showing IT does unt the glucose postponed glucose response and um so that is another thing that can really, I think affect mental clarity or brain fog. So um just say like I said, like the protein or or fact like an avocation sometimes of an voca to that kind of just delays the empty of your stomach c entered testings and that kind of slows IT, even kill rather than real high bike in the lower.

presumably as well prioritizing the foods during an eating window, even if you do the protein shake at home and then go out for dinner afterward. Prioritizing that in swing that toward protein is just going to cause you to eat less of the cubs. If there is desert to the end, you're going to think, look, i'm like not as bother because I ve just put more in me that's being skewed and discriminated in the direction of what you should be prioritizing anyway.

Absolutely says you get more its satiety player on me that you're eating something before like protein, you're not going to eat much, you know you not going to eat as much, but that kind of leads into the second that's not the only part of the meal or food or eating that I think, to plays a role in this reduction, mental clarity and brain fog. The everything is the post predial in flamm response.

So eating a meal causes inflation tion IT happens in everyone, every male. It's no there's no avoiding IT like to some degree that happens. And but you can minimize like how much of an important response we're having.

So people are eating a very high sugar and high fat meal IT. Really that's the real does are the two real big movers of IT. But even if you're just doing a ton of fat without like fiber or protein, fat is harsh on the gut.

And so what end up happening is you're got epithetic. Lial cells are like things holding them together, tight junctions. They open up and they let little pieces of vectors, or a microbe. I is exactly what IT is, its intensional premiership. And IT allows pieces of bacteria and getting .

for for every like Brown science term i've got, you've got the specific term that comes out of medicine brain for is a reduction in mental clarity, is that leaky got is the wall lining of the industry has opened up to a .

testable premiership or leaky gut as it's called. Yeah, that's what you're doing. So meals cause that to happen transiently. Uh, some people have lake, a very big problem with you get.

But so trying tly, you're letting bacteria get into your bloodstream and this is what happens is pieces of bacteria that called endo talks and or like a police sa the same thing. But they're getting into your circulation because they're opening up right, getting from the government, not suppose be that right and your mune system gets activated. So your mu systems like IT IT knows those pieces of the bacteria membrane IT recognizes that how I know recognize a pathogen.

And so IT gets activated. And um what s up helping? There's one humm systems activated, okay, that requires a ton of energy.

So energy is shunted away from your brain. And he goes to the immune system because your body goes trios ago. I need to survive.

There's a bacteria. There's a bacterial invader in my system right now. I'm going to take all my energy, and i'm going to make sure that I get rid of this, invade E.

R, so I don't die, right? So that's that's the first thing that's happening in terms of like energies being diverted from the brain, from their transmission, from thinking everything and it's going to immune system to activate IT. Okay, IT doesn't you know happen for that longer a period, but it's happening after a meal.

Um the second thing that's happening is that your immune system itself is creating sidelines that are activating other immune ells is how they might talk to each other and these things are um there essentially can be some generic so they can make you sleepy. So when you're sick, what happens when you're sick or you have no energy, right? Because all the energy is going to and you're sleepy.

So that's exactly what's happening after a meal. What's happening when you're sick to a smaller degree is happening after a meal, the post presidial inflammatory response. And then the other thing that's happening is the side of kinds, also a crossing into your brain and disrupting your transmission, disrupting connections, like we now know that it's the blood brain brayer does not keep immunity, leads out, gets them, they get in there and they are working habit.

So it's another reason why you don't want to have, if you know, inflation, a lot of inflation tion. But so then the questions, okay, what do I do? right? So that's the question.

How do I not get such a big post redial inflaming response? And this is also, again, why a lot of people, myself included, always feel like more mentally clear when i'm vested, right? Ah but i'm like I don't want to lose a protein.

I mean the muscle mouse but the question is, what do you do? One, obviously avoid the sugar, high sugar, high fat. Okay, that's clear.

Two smaller meals have less of a post premium inflammatory response. The bigger the meal, the bigger response bike and then down yeah bet it's like now we're talking you're getting both. You're getting the glucose and you're getting the inflationary response.

That's another thing. So actually like smaller meals does help that. So like if you need mental clarity and stuff, like don't have a big meal. Um and the other thing that actually makes an effect on that is believe you're not you're going full circle. A mega three a mega three has been shown in clinical studies to polite the post post printing al inflammatory response .

with the meal or at any point throughout the day.

So that's why I take my omega ies throughout the day with meals and it's doing IT till some to be both just something to read, both something .

systemic but is exactly they're something systemic.

the inflation tion process. But there's something a cute in the gut that is also playing a preventing the lap of police security from .

getting miracle tion. Is the is this dose dependent? If I have one gram with each meal, you say two grams of triglyphs sponsibility source pub la la from a norwegian guide that's doing IT like this with fish. Can I have one gram with each meal with that piece of fish?

I think this studies, and I can't remember, I think he was like they were lower. Those like five hundred milligrams. I think IT wasn't even that high. So I typically do the one ground with each meal.

I think that's a safe. It's a nice way to remember to do that.

But yeah it's a nice way and um and so so I like to do the reason I like to have a maga three for the days for one that reason blunting the post prentis lameter response. I want these like specialized resolving like these specialized resolving molecules in that they produce, like when you're metabolite m in my blood constant resolving inflation .

tion trusting yeah. So through throughout my twenties I said as a club promoter and I thought I had depression, or like acute depression, that would come on. Every so often like intimate tly throughout the year.

I think looking back, IT was just low mood and burnout. I think that's what was going on. But the way that he would not manifest for me, I wouldn't get out of bed.

I wouldn't want to go to work and see people. And I was I was in charge of this company, and so I could do whatever I wanted. And none could tell me others SE. But one of the things that I would do is I would order pizza or like high sugar foods and sweets and stuff like that. And I would completely right I can come to, and that would be something I do.

But i'd notice, especially if you have you know a big dominance in front of you and you've got some sweet stuff to have after that, the sense that you get in your body, especially if you haven't been outside, if you basically not moved because you're feeling a little bit miserable and you the curtains are drawn and you're just lay in bed and the uber drive, whatever is come and you taken the food of him, the information like the throwing that you feel in your body, it's almost like your heartbeat feels like, or your blood pressure feels like it's gone up. And then almost all of the time after that. And I think this is very common for people that deal with the little mood.

If they do comfort IT like that, that then fall asleep. So shortly after that, and then that this regulation of your sleep pattern also makes you feel even more like shit. And then you come out of this sleep, your emotions are all over the place.

He'd still got tons of like either blood c of rushing around you or you don't know you've got digest to just all of this and you had just seen that as like a little petrifies microcosm for what happens the least amount of movement possible like you ve gone from bed to door, back to bed, and that's IT nothing in terms of any kind of stimulation already in low mood. And then you go to sleep the most secondary of all of the positions yeah, it's you can feel that information, that side a kind response and your thoughts again, super, super muddy, which also feedback back into that low mood. It's a vicious cycle.

right? exactly. no. And you know it's unna. You mention people get eat when you get sleepy after meal.

It's like that's the side, the kinds that are some legends. Ic is the post flaming ory inflaming response. And again, IT happens with the bigger meal too.

You'll notice, like the bigger the meal, if you over eat the sleepy, you are right. And so that's more than inflammatory response. And now you can think about IT as, oh, i'm not sleepy. It's, oh, i've got some information going on after that meal.

What about improving mood? What do people get wrong when thinking about that?

I mean, so improving mood is, you know, we were talking about exercise, and that would be the most effort foot way that you can improve mood. And there are studies that have compared IT to like running to essentially to standard S S R I treatments, which are pretty classic and of the presents that are used and it's performed as good as an S S R I with added health benefits, of course. right.

Um so but you met you something interesting when you are talking about when you are feeling depressed um and that was that you didn't even get a bed right. So it's clear that exercise will help mitigate depression. It'll improve your mood very clear.

But not everyone is gonna for a run. Not everyone that is suppressed will get on palon or filling the black type bex right? There are some people that like it's hard to get out of bed.

So what could be a non pharma logical treatment to help improve mood, right? Um and I think that this is what is super exciting and this comes into to heat, deliberate heat exposure and sona. And it's aman I personally experienced first time when I was in graduate school, I was an extremely stressed out which can manage this with depression and anxiety, right? Argue those all come connected.

And this was like two thousand nine. I started using the song every day before I would go into the lab. And I all of a sudden was, you know, handling my field experiments Better. I was like handling the stress for my adviser and just all the things they had to do so much Better. I mean, I was so noticeable that I initially went, oh god, sh there's something going on here like I need to figure this out um and so that's what initially even got me interested in the sona was the effect on my mood. And at the time I like i've published on this sense, i've published on this back in two thousand two, but I had come up with some theories about there's a lots of reasons why I had come up with with the theory on IT affecting the observer m or natural indigenous o system. So when you yet the sona um or when you're under you know delivery heat exposure, say a hot back, something similar, you release endorphins and that's the feel good opi that you're running you know the same um but you also release something that's the opposite of that called dine orphant and that is the opi that's responsible for that discomfort feeling that dismore feeling like it's hot.

This is miserable. I hate. Why am I doing this self exactly?

And that's when you're running what happens during physical activity as well. And um and so what IT does that actually cool down your core body temperature or somewhat and that's why it's I got natural response and but when you release that discomfort feeling, there's a feedback loop. I'd actually tell IT actually actually make more receptors and you make a more sensitive to the feel good endorphins so that you feel Better later.

And so now there's spent some scientist research first from child's razon. Back in, I think IT was like twenty sixteen. He had done a study where people were they basically like IT was a type of of sona, more like an infested a IT was elevating the core body temperature two about fevers state like a one to one point three.

And there was a sham control, which was the placebo. They were getting hot enough to think they were getting the treatment. But IT wasn't raising them. IT wasn't giving them a fever, and so that was done just one time and this was in people with major depressive disorder like like legit depression, in the people that got the active sauna treatment, had an antidepressant fect, that lasted six weeks after one time.

we at one time .

um so now doctor actually made in A U S F. She's running the ocean center, which is they do a lot of non pharmacological treatments for lot of stuff. And um i've been lucky enough to collaborate with her on uh some of these studies where SHE now right now has a paper in press which I am press in peer review, but SHE basically trained the truck rezon and Carried on the torch and now has done either four treatments or eight treatments in some people and looked and these are people again um with depression and to a battery of of scores you know that these people do you in the imagine depression and I just off the charts unreal like so damn exciting like I can't tell you how exciting IT is. The people that got this saw a treatment I mean there I think it's something like the hamilton score where you need like a three or four point change for IT to be significant. I mean.

people are changing like sixteen point S S S. I think two or I don't .

know what they all I can say is she's doing an infor, its on and horses it's a head out in for ezza. So it's like it's like a .

dome and and yes.

but they're in their very long time.

Have you considered that it's just them overcoming the discomfort of looking so stupid while being in one of those tents that as you had sticking out the top?

IT is probably so many mechanisms that play, you know. But but you know there's there's some argument to be made for head out, you know we could get into that. But like I I do think that inflation tion so saana does what exercises is doing to some degree in with respectful, causing both acute information but having a strong and time flamm response. But then I think the oppos could be there's so many things.

it's not known what's happening. Exercise get hot if you can get hot while .

you excise probably be getting hot like some people like again, getting into a sona is like getting into a small it's a lot easier to go from your bed into this other little chAmber where you just like no, no effort to do for you that he doing IT for you.

What about people who are standards acceptable mood? But think I really wanted kind of elevate the way that I feel throughout the day.

I I don't feel that sort of excited or fired up about the obviously there's like what are your relationships like to the job that you do? Do you have meaning and purpose in your life? Is that all of those sort of things? But there are any interventions from a physical gc perspective, what you think this is something you should prioritize.

right? Um so I think that IT IT comes down to obviously like doing an exercise snack. We talked about exercise is doing like a two minute you know highest or squats or something that IT makes a difference.

IT really does. You're getting you're getting that oxygen brain. You're getting more. And b DNF plays a role in depression. So that stuff I think immediately improves mood. But there's also um you know so so what neurotransmitter ors are involved in mood or you know well.

I mean it's complicated .

like I don't even know that we can define IT exactly right. I mean there there's you have things like sir tony is involved in mood, uh, motivation, like you have to be a good mood to be motivated, right? The really hand hand seemed doping norphel. An is another one that's involved the focus, attention, mood, you know things like that. They are all sort of you know involved in in the mood, motivation, that sort of pathways.

So there's like there are behaviors that you can engage to sort of optimize for those neurotransmitter or or neurotransmitter optimism is is sort of like trying to engage in behaviors that can optimize for those neurotransmitter or so one high intensity exercise does IT been shown. See, tone goes up. IT goes up because, again, your life is increasing the sirett e but IT also goes that because branch chain to minto acid ds, which you're getting when you're eating protein, they compete with trip fan.

Trip to fan is a precursor. IT has to get into the brain, and they compete for transport into the brain with those brand shadow to assets. And trip defines a precursor for so if you're eating a bunch protein which have branch channel asses like Lucy, I. Things that are building muscle basically and you're not exercising, then your trip to fan can be out competed. And there's been studies doing this.

They have give people a big like shake like a protein ship essentially that does not have any um trip IT has no trip to find in IT so there essentially just dosing them with branch anomie assets and their trip to find levels fall by like ninety percent the brain and and subsequently they are a tonal levels promet and people get in a terrible mood. Their long term planning shuts down for therefore one and plays a role, impulse control, like being able to like control your impulses and not engaged and behaviors that are very impulsive. And so that that goes down.

And this is just Normal people that or drinking the shake of branch imminent. Ds, so what makes the branch assad go in a muscle exercise? So if you want to do that, then you're onna get more trip fiant in the brain to make serotonin.

What is the adoptive justification of the adaptive mechanism for? This is IT that if human was doing relatively high intensity extended exercise, that would often be some sort of pursuit hunting type thing. Therefore, you need a natural pain, keller, to encourage said humans to keep chasing, said will the beast. Because if they feel Better, they will keep chasing IT, which means them more likely to catch IT, which means they want stop .

and die that says a good, great explanation. Um yeah I mean we used to move around like you said um IT doesn't necessarily have to be high intense IT could be just lifting weight to IT causes branch you know to be taking up to muscle but you you're moving yeah so there's a you know I think there's could be an evolutionary person you reason why there is for in my world there .

is an evolutionary reason for absolutely everything not because it's the only thing i've got any expertise uh but yeah that's that's interesting to think about. I mean, I wrote this and like ten years ago, when I was still suffer with a mood and stuff like that, if you gave me the choice between a good nights sleep of nine hours or a hard training session of one hour, my mood reset before and after training is greater than before enough to sleep. I found more bleed from pretty post sleep than pretty post training. And it's it's so ruthless that if you are suffering with the low mood or if you're injured, a period of high stress or whatever is one of the things that you go to first is sleep. Even though in my experience, the higher arai thing is the thing that's hardest to do when you're moves the lowest because you're motivation to do difficile things is also at its lowest.

Totally, absolutely. It's finding that you mentioned the sleep thing too because like you, I do things is important. But nowadays i'm like, you know it's extra cide like like I don't know that anything matters as much if you are putting in that effort to exercise.

And you know that could be shown in data if you look at you know studies that have looked at all costs, mortality and people that don't sleep as much like they're in six hours or less. They have a higher all cause mortalia than people that are not, but only in people that are not physically active. So people are physically active and sleep terribly, had the same all cosmetically as people that, you know slept fine without.

So in other words, exercise can negate the bad effects of lack of sleep on all cosmetically. And I also, glucose response is up with lack of sleep like you you're you're um you're basically gone to have a higher post pendel glue hose response to food. Yes, you're onna have a higher faster black glucose level when you don't .

get enough sleep but you're also going to select four foods that are more sault more sweet. I mean, I found this as well that I I, for the first time in mind, tie life, when I had a stable sleeping weight pattern, was copied.

That was the first time that i'd ever gone to bed as an adult, the same time, most nights out of two weeks, because I was always running our events, you know, which would mean that be up until two, three, five in the morning, catching up a till, driving back from one of the club nights in a different city, doing something like that. And I remember thinking that I always thought I had low mood and was a bad sleeping. And I just realized I was doing shift work.

The shift work is considered. I think the world health organization literally consider shift work a health risk. So this is firefighters. This is nurses. This is anybody that got an irregular pattern I I thought I was made so I think this is IT was so formative in such a foundation to the way that my a lifestyle and um the texture of my mind existed. I didn't I couldn't imagine what life would be like different. And then kova comes in the obviously nightclubs immediately all get shut down and I guess I guess i'll try this going to bed at eleven o clock every night thing and then mood started to just like linearly get Better throughout all of twenty twenty and yeah that was wild to see that that case study of someone who basically had no theory of mind for what I would be like to not be like that, to then actually get stable, sleep, awake that was crazy, is a really big change.

Yeah, that's IT really is, like you said, the shift work. I mean, i'm so respectful for people they are doing IT and such an pandas actually done at work with, like firefighters and stuff and shown that if the shift workers due timer shifted feeding and eating, like if they are doing that water to their shift c, they actually do have Better, at least like metal bolic outcomes and stuff like a porn, not bio comes, but bio markers.

So there is somewhat so so IT helps because, you know, there obviously their bodies completely out of cycle and wac. But if they can at least keep that food intake clock on the right you know path and right clock, uh IT doesn't a difference. So they're eating all around the clock.

basically. Presumably, if they were also doing training, if they're exercising, that would help to mitigate that.

I think the exercise would be the most important thing that they could do. And firefighters, I mean, they are they do have to be physically fit, right? And that's part of like the requirement.

So five fight is basically like being a half waight house into the armed forces, like a lot of my friends that they know they have pt, they have yard time, they have kid inspections, they have all this other stuff. I don't know whether it's the same. I don't think it's the same for people that are accident and emergency, uh, nurses and and doctors and stuff like that.

Uh, I don't know if it's the same for the police. I guess if you're of a sort team and stuff that would that would be very heavily prioritized. But I don't know if the you know the classic Bobby on the beat with a big gut and this i'm thinking british here and like one of the silly hats, british police officers, well, I don't know whether they put through the same kind of a of fitness.

I suppose that job sometimes is less physically demanding than a firefighters. But then if you're chasing some scale down an ally way and chasing after some person that just committed a crime, you need to be pretty fit for that. We had super, super interesting, uh, what we're talking about cold and heat exposure to is something you spent an awful lot of time thinking about. What's the best way to utilize cold heat routine throughout the week? Like what's just the simplest way to doing evidence based cold and heat protocol?

I think um one of the best ways would be, if so, most people should be training, right? They should be doing some sort of resistance training or enduring training um vigors exercise doing the heat after that I think would be one of the best because you're you're extending your work out to some degree. So there there's been studying es looking at the on the address on side, like if you're intervention cities that are taking people that have have done exercise on a stationary bike or they've done the same exercise on a stationary bike and then done fifteen minutes of hot sona like right after .

that and specially .

no make no break, they just go into the sona after. And then V O two max was measure of. V O two max is like your best way to measure cardiac fit, right? So maximum t of oxide you're taking in a maximum you know exercise.

So um the the V O two max was Better than people that did that exercise that the stationary bike plus the sona veris just the stationary back, right and that is a lot because saw that to some degrees mimicking moderate intensity cardiovascular exercise. You know it's it's doing a lot of the same things, a lot of the same theological responses happening. So I would say i'm doing the song right after the workout, but also there's a new say that came out showing people that did resistance training and then got into a sona had like Better muscle gains and IT just .

makes you work out of whatever IT make sure.

But I think some of that has to do with the heat shock proteins too. And um also yet there's been study showing that if you um increase blood flow, like like if you do resistance training IT used to be like this thing was like, oh don't do any enduring training like like at on the same day that you're doing resistance training, you're going to blind your games or some me I don't remember what IT exactly was called, but that's kind of been put to rest. It's not true.

Uh so so to to why guess it's always extreme is always out later what I should say ways you could do IT, but generally speaking, like getting some blood flow to your muscles after you're done training actually improves hypocrisy, right? Because you're getting some growth factors and things. There are an immune es, things that are like playing a role in the hypocrisy.

Is there a window post training that you need to get into the heat within?

Not necessarily. No.

within the same day? No, I think you should do IT.

If you okay, you ask, you ask me about the optio protocol. I would say ultimately IT would be after training IT doesn't have to be because also he plays a role in sleep. So people, some people choose to do their heat at night, like couple hours before they are going to go to bed.

You can go. I actually have been kind of obsessive about this of late, and I do both. So I do I get the sona after I work out and then I do the jakie at night with my husband um which is another former heads dressed you and you know hundred and four degree for in high water.

You couldn't be in there for twenty minutes in similar. Responses in terms of biomarkers as a sona. So I do think um if you're going going to do one, you can kind of choose I do have hard time slipping.

Do you want or do you want I kind of extension workout? And now I don't know that you have to do IT like I think there's also an observation data, by the way, the steady with the cyclist and the sana, that was an untrained people. So you might go all about train people.

But then there's observation data showing that people that do exercise or people that exercise and sa so this is all sorts of people. This is these are people that are exercising. These aren't newbies, right? The people that do exercises and sana have a higher v to max compared to people that only exercise.

So there's evidence, I think that, that kind of makes me a little stronger. That is not just a new begin, right, like that. It's probably something going.

And I think it's because it's six is making cardio exercise. So do you have to do IT after workout? No, you don't have to.

Uh, but I do think it's I I personally like to do IT after a workout. It's like i've already got my heart rate up. You know it's so it's really just like extending extending .

them out to a windows that seem to be at least interesting to use would be two hours is finishing two hours before bed.

I say that yeah because some people take longer to cool down yeah and exactly so yeah two hours like get out before you know like because then you don't want to be like trying to go to sleep, then you'll have the opposite effect, right?

Too high, you can't fall asleep and then put out post work out and a couple of years before sleep. What temperature? How long per week? What else?

yes. So temperature, duration, frequency, like many times, you know. So there's all sorts of studies coming out of finland where soon as are ubiquity, everyone's using one looking at, you know, sona use and all cause mortality.

Cardiff actually rate mortality, dementia, alchemic disease, all of things. And what's clear is that there is a dose dependent effect with frequency and duration in the sona. So in other words, the more frequent to sona use, the more robust of the effect.

So i'll give you an example. All cause mortality is forty percent lower in people that use this on of four to seven times a week. So four times would be minimum right, versus people that use IT two to three times a week, they have a twenty four percent lower, all cosmetically right.

So bare minimum would be too, if you want something, this is compared to people use at one time a week. But if you want the most robust effects, the bare minimum would be up to seven right every day. So that would be frequency.

Now, temperature international, most of those studies in fenland, the average temperature in the publications is about one seventy four, one seventy five degree fair height. And the duration in that song is also important. So if people only stayed in for eleven minutes, they weren't getting a very robust effect. They had a stain for at least twenty minutes. So twenty minutes at one seventy four degree fair high four times a week is the recipe for, I would say, that the best, you know, uh, affects for cardio ashlar brain or cosmetically.

What about if you increase temperature and reduce duration?

yes. So this question usually I get at the opposite, because people are interested in information on as and infrared zon as go, only two, like one forty five degree for and high, the kind of heat you up a little differently, they're not the ambient air is not as high like the electricity, like moving your molecules in your body up, but until in that case, you would want to stay in a much longer duration ation. And that's what to use in like ashly Mason study, but the opposite. So like if you're going to you know one eighty .

or how hot are.

okay? So heat is so he is a stress with it's it's a stress on the body, right? And you have the stress response to the heat, right? So your body makes heat shock proteins. For example.

you get dog thoughts.

you get dark thoughts, you exactly and then and then you get out and you feel great, but you also get chatty in there. So um it's it's important to keep in mind that you don't want to go too extreme on heat because IT is a stress like just like you don't want to like exercise, like all date, like you need recovery, right? You don't want a fast like for out, like you need food.

These things are stressed, their stresses on the body and our body has a stressed response to them. So this kind of, like horses, is we talk about her misses a lot hot. He is the same thing. Heat can permeability, zed, the blood brain barrier. When you start .

to go to extreme.

temporary melting, my brain, i'm concerned that that two thirty is too high yeah there so there was one study that came um that was published is twenty twenty two was kind of recent ish and IT wasn't from a doctor ari lines group who was the main researcher who does a lot of studies out of finland looking at you know sona use and dementia for example, he found sona use is associated with like a sixty six percent reduction and all sandwiches.

They're using IT four times a week. Another city came out and this was in, gosh, I IT was a quite a few I remember was two or five thousand adult IT was a lot or maybe born actually um well anyways, they looked at temperature and they looked at duration and they looked at altimeter sees rik and you know is clear that you know if you use the sona, you had a lower degree, a lower risk of of dementia, all music. But there was a subset of group where people were using IT at two hundred degrees fair and high or more, that had the opposite effect.

So you shaped cover to temperature.

I think so. I don't talk about I don't want people to get free dead because it's like but not everyone's doing two hundred. I think there's the extreme there's always this extreme push where i'm going to go hard. And if you're that personality type, you going to be a that person that goes all the way because .

that's what you do .

on everything you do. So um I do think with sona though, it's important to keep in mind that IT is a pretty strong stress on the body, particularly if you're not head out right, but if you're getting your head in there and warming IT up to two hundred thirty degrees.

this lunch thing is really, really intense. I mean, it's a couple of things when you think about like where the thomebody actually .

located highest point at the top.

unless you stood on your tip toes on the bench, you're not actually gna get your head to that point. And the difference between this one that i've got is two benches and the lower bench .

is we half half .

is hard as sitting on the upper bench and the ua venture isn't at the all the way the top and if you're at the other side to wear the rock heat of thing is if you're over there, then it's easier. And if you're at the front, then it's a bit hard.

So you can kind of mitigate within that I suppose um one consideration, like four times a week can be quite intrusive for somebody to get that he'd exposure, especially if they don't even if you do have a sooner at home, it's still pretty intrusive. Like to go back and for the preheated all rest of stuff is that if you want to do twenty minutes in a one eighty one ninety, something like that to make sure that it's one seven, four, uh, and then take a little break and then go back in. Is that a way that you could maybe get away with doing three times a week or two times a week and still trying capture some of those really good gains?

Um I don't know that that data is there to make that statement, but I do know that there have been studies looking at going repeatedly in taking a few minutes break and going back in a desk. A and what is clear that you do get big, major boost and .

growth tormo is thing that teen sixteen increase?

yes. So what they were doing is they were going so they were going I don't remember how many times.

but IT was quite four times thirty minutes .

with AK ah with break something like that. It's been years since I i've talked about that study. But yes, so um that could give sixteen fold increasing growth ormon which you know IT it's trend sian IT doesn't like last forever, but you know also growth hormones involved with sleep and in deep sleep.

And so it's it's another reason why doing that like timing your sona around around bad time could be highly beneficial for a lot of people. Like a lot of people really do benefit. So I personally, like I said, I do I kind of do both. I like I do the hot tub um which is hundred and four degrees and i'm in therefore like thirty minutes.

There was a difference being that it's hundred and four degrees of liquid touching .

actually and there's been studies that have looked at. So there's hey shock proteins that are activated um in the sona and they're also activated in the hot tub and brain driven near a traffic factor, which is from exercise, also is activated when you get on a hot tub so and the sauna.

So it's like when you start to see the biomarkers that are similar between the different heat modalities, you kind of go at the end of the day, is your heart rate going up in the hot tub? Yes, it's I i've done the song a for like, I like, I know how I feel. I feel the exact same way in this on, I like that this on a Better because i'm less likely to cheat like I will cheat in a hot, I will get my arms out like you have to have your shoulder down for twenty minutes so you have to .

really thank you. I saw you on twitter get into a, but you got in trouble with big steam like the steam room verses sona versus ju zi thing. I think there's a lot of people that like evAngelists for the sooner being the only way to get hot. And I think that you'd mentioned there's quite a lot of different ways that you can go there.

a lot of different ways you can get hot. And I think, I mean, i've done a lot of steam showers again, you're getting your heart rate up. You're getting your increasing your cardiac output, you're getting blood flow increases, your but like all these things are happening, it's the hitchcock response. You you know there's a lot of ways what is IT a lot of room to lot of rose to room, right?

I mean, it's not what if somebody doesn't have a access to. Is easy access to a sooner or doesn't have on in the house. What about just running a hot bath and then continuing to like, I mean, how much is a thyma ter that you put in the bath? Is probably five dollars, maybe ten dollars or something. Throw that and get IT IT what temperature and stay in for twenty minutes.

exactly. I do this a lot when i'm travelling, by the way.

Like I get I do that .

the portable sona I do, I do IT. But so what I what I like to recommend is like, so go and get one of those pool thermo ters, right? I mean, they are like you said, they're like anywhere .

between .

five to fifteen little es. You put that in your bathtub and you get IT up to one or four. Set your timer for twenty minutes, make, make sure your shoulders are down, like submerge below and if the the the temperature starts to go down just at some more hot water and that that the most, most people have a bathroom.

And so I like that I can be accessible because that's another thing I get a lot of, oh, well, I don't have a sona yeah you know and yeah there's a lot of gyms, but this is in finland like, you know, everyone has a sona so so I do realize that there is a limitation on the songs and you, Michael, then why do I need like, do I need IT? You know, like I said, so there's the V O two max. You know that you're getting you're getting even Better than just exercise.

Now there's people out there that are endurance athletes like there. I don't know. Do they need IT like review to max? Probably not. But IT also helps with the distance atrophy, muscle atrophy um and those studies have been done, so we've done studies what they do like this. They immobilize a limb and people for like a period weeks and they did local heating in in one study. But there's been a lot of animal studies during sort of whole body heating and it'll prevent this use atrophy by like forty percent.

I snapped my Kelly three years ago full playing cricket, and IT was thirteen days from when that happened until I get my surgery. So i'm waiting for, I wanted a very particular surgeon in the U. K.

To come and do IT. One of the the guys had been highly recommended to me, which when I had to wait little bit longer, thirteen days of not stepping on my right leg, and IT was gone. IT was so alarming to look down and see, especially because you've got the other leg to fucking in comare IT to.

So you laid in the bath of whatever looking down and thinking like, this is wild. It's so crazy. And obviously you see people that are in wheelchairs. We maybe don't use the lower limbs all that much, and we've got very thin legs. And yeah, was what I was crazy to see that in thirteen .

days when you were Young, when this happened. And so you can recover, you can bounce back quite quickly. But people that are older like they go and they get influenza and they're like congleton sing for the weeks, right? They're not moving.

They're not using their muscles. They can't recover like they'll never get back to web that. And and this is where I think the heat comes in and also a mega trees. So I know .

it's like .

I like there's a few low .

hanging fruit.

but it's been shown to cut this use atrix fifty percent so and this but this is something that's not gonna en like you have to preload IT so you have to the omega's accumulate in the muscle membranes and IT takes about four weeks for that to happen. So you have to plan ahead or just be the person that already taking in that way. It's already there, right? And so then you're ready.

Talk to me about cold. We've got hot, cold exposure.

yeah. So deliberate cold exposure is another type of homework stress. And there's some overlap. There's different feeds like you cannot increase heat checked proteins from cold exposure. He shocked he these stress response pathways.

There's a lot of overlap where you can like because it's just it's it's it's an adaptation, right? We were meant to move. We were meant to be hot.

We meant to be cold. We are going to get plant of chemicals where there you, our body's respond, and we act with all these really beneficial genetic pathway. So they all kind of overlap.

Some do IT Better than others like he child. Proteins are more robustly activated by heat, but cold also activate them. Just an interesting thing to think about. Um so cold exposure, one, the most robust physical gc responses to cold, cold exposure would be or not release and we are talking uh earlier about mood and like neurotransmitter optimization, things to do, like behaviors you can engage in and and timing of those behaviors around things that are going to perhaps um going to to require a Better mood or motivation or something like that, right?

So north and neuron does play a role in in in motivation and mood and those things I got in the culture before I came here, and I usually do that before like a talk or you know something like that as well. But so north an after releases is one of the the most consistent psychological ical responses. You can get that from twenty seconds at like forty degree fair height water or excuse two minutes at um forty nine or fifty to refer and high water will release or nor up and two fold over baseline um or you can be crazy in staging like fifty degree water for an hour.

Who does that um and you'll get a fight fold increase. So um why why would you want neuber n while IT is a neurotransmitter, ter IT does play a room focus. Attention regulates mood. IT helps with lake anxiety. All those things are an important it's kind of I persons like to time IT around things like coextensive um also sort of benefits with respective by a control biogenesis you can get in cold plunge and stay in there for fifteen minutes and increased midon jo o biogenesis markers and muscle tissue. So that's the growth of new medical ria in your muscle tissue that's great midcontinent producing more energy so it's associated with less muscle atrophy. But you can get that from a height intense and you work out to so you don't have to necessary do cold um when should you do the cold so I I can tell you when not to do IT, when not to do IT would be after sort of a strength training or resistance training workout .

how long the window .

you so so that's a good question. So i've come up with my own sort of window on this, and I can tell you the rational behind that. But so here's the thing. There's been a couple of studies and it's actually not all consistent. The first study that came out that was like the big made the big deal.

Um I was like, I don't twenty fifteen or so when I came out or something like that and the study did he was a cold ice bath and he was five minutes after a string string workout where people like the men went in and like put their leg or or something like that in in the ice bath for fifteen minutes. And this was right after the work out, okay. Or did a passive recovery where they were actually on a stationary bike.

So the control group wasn't just sitting around. They were actually, in my opinion, increasing hypocrisy by movement. Okay, just that's clear. I think that's a flaw of the study.

And so the people that did the ice bath right after they were their resistance trained work at hard still had hypertrophy. They had less than the control group. And so that was was I go with blunting gains.

And so I like that back then. I would dive. I was trying to die.

G or legs? I don't remember right. I was just wondering ing because I would be interesting .

if they compared the other leg. Yeah I don't I don't remember um I spent so long and say about that study but uh so when you are when you're doing exercise, when your doing this is standing, you're obviously causing an inflaming response, right? That's part of the stress.

And there is a counter to that. There is a very poor anti and lame response. And um with the with the resistance training, you're actually merging muscle, right? You're damaging the muscle. It's like a mechanical force activating all sort of the pathways. Well, turns out that immune cells have to get to that muscle that plays a role in in hypocrisy.

But like this whole response, if you look at like some of the cited kinds and I G F one that's involved in signal and all that IT happens like IT peaks like an hour after resistant training, and then after that the kind of goes back down. And so the question is when you're getting in the court, you're causing basal construction. So nor an apple I mentioned is a uh neurotransmitter is also a hormone.

It's made in the prefer as well and it's involved in basic constructions, which is the opposite of what he does, basic diode tion. So when you're raise of constructing, you're cutting off the roads to get to your muscle, right? You like the growth factors, the immune ells, all the things can get there, right? You you're stopping that. I think this is what happening um and so you know it's like, well, what if I just wait like an hour to would I be safe possibly or maybe just you know due to at a few hours like five hours, what's the rule you use um so I personally don't do as much much cold exposure as I should do because I talk about IT I do IT a lot more in the summer when it's taught and but when I do do IT most the time it's before something I know it's like it's ridiculous but it's the truth um or i'll do IT in the morning like so I personally don't like to time and right after my heat exposure mostly because blood pressure changes for me that are just freaky that .

I don't like in contrast therapies very, very weird IT is .

yeah I mean some people like that right .

I enjoy IT but it's .

like a DIY feeling. It's a DIY. And i've had like even more extreme .

where I was like that to O I yeah .

exactly stare at .

the floor and hope that IT goes .

away yeah yeah so i'm i'm not too like fond of that feeling. So I like to separate them you know a little bit um although I think if I if I wait like five to ten minutes after I get out of the sona, like just kind of ever room temperature, just chill out for a minute, let my heart will come down, then I get in the cold. I don't have that response, so like waiting a little bit.

So um I think the rule of thun for cold exposure is I think that nar transparently optimization like when do you want to use IT to get that european f on hit because. IT does help with focus intention. IT helps with mood anxiety.

And so like you know, if you want to lag, if you wake up in the morning first thing and do IT, that's a great way to start the day. I like to wake up and get on my palette er do my work out, but also just timing IT around things like I said, I did a charm before I came here from at home. I'll get into the cold plunge before something that you know is gonna me more anxiety or just I need more focus attention.

We mentioned a twenty seconds of forty degrees, enough for the north an f an. But what about if are looking for the forecast ade? We're gna capture as much as we can most. That is realistic for people to do how long, how frequently.

how cold a week. So we talked about an orphan, and we talked a little bit about medico biogenic, the growth of new meter country in skeletal muscle. And that was fifteen minutes at fifty degrees, which if you can get to the three minute, three and a half minute mark and fifty degrees.

you can get to fifty .

yeah but um there's another benefit we didn't talk about, which is actually making more money to country on your ad post tissue. And that's an adaptation that is a response to called exposure because when you have more motorola, in your fact, you you're basically making it's basically you're making more energy, burn more energy, but you also release he as a byproduct into its adaptation.

The more you use the cold, the it's called Browning a fat. And the reason for that is because when you look at a fat droplet under a microscope and there's more my a country or and IT IT looks Brown compared to White. So so that also something that happens.

And most of the studies looking at Browning of fat and humans have not been done in getting into cold water. They've been done in like humans walking around at fifty degree fair and high or putting on a cold suit that's fifty degree fair and high. I know it's like one of things you like walk around with the air yeah and um and so again for those I mean it's it's it's anywhere between fifteen minutes to an hour.

You start you start to get that. So fifteen minutes I think is a good markers for song, for a session, for you the whole show bang right. Like not just the norbin afan but the might control benefits if you're also looking for Browning of the fat and you know the muscle temperature. And so that would be like fifty degrees, forty nine degrees far in high, if you can, in which is, I mean, that's cold.

Some people go, that's pretty miserable. I mean, what used to again, it's so funny like the bro version of me and my friends to do this in Austin, if we go to well, i've said that you should go if if you're coming through um it's two twenty and sona. It's thirty seven degrees in the ice bath. I'm are doing twenty and three three times like but IT seems like, darling, that back in terms of intensity and increasing IT in terms of frequency induration is where we're actually gonna maybe not even capture more gains but reduce some of the negative uh, effects of us going hell other on .

yeah I mean, you are going to think about like you know the the fact that this you are stressing your body right? Like you want you want to stress to be good and great enough and robust enough, but you don't like there's a window right? Like you don't want to go outside that window. What's like .

damage one red max pilled on everything. So all of the Browns that going to go a look like when I went into the gym going to failure or doing drop sets or pushing myself until I want to throw up, that worked. That has to be the universal rule for all modalities of stimulus. Therefore, i'll just do the song till I like want to pass out now, crown out and that's got to be the best.

How longer you do you stay in the two .

thirty um and do you get down?

You keep going down. Yep, up IT depends on whether .

my house makes there. And we also watch stuff. So we'll put a speaker in there and like watch a little bit of like an youtube, whatever, usually about fifteen to twenty minutes like my real up bound for that two thirty one. I know what .

that IT IT was.

Rough IT burns the inside of your nose. Like, if you try and breathe through your nose, that hurts. I hurts my nostrils to do that anyway, fifty minutes, fifty degrees, not done within five hours of hype ropy training.

Lets just say that to be safe. Uh, also probably not done within a couple of hours going to sleep because that may be going to cause some complications. When IT comes to getting your body call temperature right.

you talking about cold? Yes, I don't know. I think I think it's I like IT can help sleep too actually .

hot and cold and high and cold .

can help with because if you .

go hot it's going to bounce back and pull you into .

go your body does go like if you notice when you get out a song leg doesn't take IT I don't know how IT varies on each person but after A A little bit of time all the you're really cold right you're like, yes so um I don't know that that you know I think people even do like hard and i've done this hot and cold and IT does really help receive doing both as well. But it's also kind of a exhAusting thing with your with your body, which makes sense.

I I went to this place in toronto called other ship. Be heard of .

this IT sounds yes you .

have yeah then so they could. Similarly, you in Austin, other ship do classes for heat and cold. They've got this ninety person sooner, which is like a color seen. And it's this raked sort of seating and benches, and it's huge. This song of thing at the front looks like a massive barbecue e girl for the biggest party that have ever seen.

And then they have coaches that guide you through the cold exposure as well as as kind of like pts stood at the end of each of the cold tubs and they say, what are you wanting to get out of the session today? And they'll take you through different modalities. One of the ones that they did with us, which are really loved, was thirty seconds in, thirty seconds out, three rounds of the cold.

And while you are in there, you were moving both arms and legs and doing a little bit of tony, like vocal, like toning stuff. And that was wild. I'd never done that before.

We tend to just get in sitting for two to three minutes, get out, go back in the sona. But that was really interesting. The effect of doing that was was pretty cool.

Yeah doing a work out in there because again, you're yeah it's like making your work out harder, right? It's like they're both sort of to some degree doing like at least physical gc responses similar with .

this something if you don't have an agent cold tub, everyone is, everyone stand this, everyone knows you get in and and like it's gona wait for the film of warm waters kind of get around me and if I really, really don't move, it'll be less painful but doing this is just it's so as able it's frequency, fifty minutes, fifty degrees. How often?

I I don't know that there is an established frequency like there is with the sona, right? This isn't like there's not large observational studies looking at people that are couples, but I will tell you, so I talk to doctor lock on about the percentage people in finland because the son as SONY are coming .

up the world zero .

yeah like are doing because they a lot of people will just the this public so as as is called and the community will get in there and then they go like in the winter time is go into the bulteel and jump. It's and i've been there i've experienced IT. I've seen that. So um he was saying about ten percent of people, I was actually thought I was to be more than that, but it's not about ten percent of people are are doing are going doing contrast there be so they are going from hot to cold so then you you go oh well, because I wanted to know like are some of these benefits like from the contrast and is not a lot of research on IT, you know. So the question is like I don't I don't think that you can give a frequency like with absolute confidence?

exactly.

yes. So it's more of okay. Well, are you looking for these Browning of fat? Is that because that it'll go away when you stop doing IT so you have to keep IT up um in the more you do IT IT is kind of those dependent.

So you I told you that I don't do enough cold exposure and this is the summer. Would you do? Yeah I mean, so I look, I feel great. I feel great this morning when I in my cold shower, right, like I like to use for that like mood booster.

So it's an a cute performance enhancer, that .

neurotransmitter optimization thing. That's why, that's why I like to use. And every time I do IT, i'm like, why don't I do this more? I know why, because i'm doing the hit and the muscles and then i'm the mom and like podcast, you know. So it's like that. It's almost like I think it's almost easier to just at least if it's winter, just get into the cold shower because it's like less of something about the cold plan.

You get a lid .

d get lid, get to think about you like, oh, it's the cold plan that I got to get passed three three and half minute mark where you know you're burning and then you're not burning. So um I think I think that I just would like to start using IT on a more of a daily basis for the way that makes me feel and that's why I get mostly IT. Seems to me.

based on what you're saying here, that although there is definitely place for cold exposure and deliberate cold exposure has some effect that you don't capture with the sooner if you were to make a pie chart of what's happening with heat and cold, a lot of IT is coming from heat and only a little bit of IT is coming from cold.

Yeah, when we're talking about a lot of these health outcomes with respect to cardio disease and dimension, all cosmetically, all IT is it's all but you know again, the hot is mixing modern intensity exercise. So yeah that make sense um the cold I I I really just come all comes back again to that makes you feel so good you getting that more. IT does brand your fat and like, look brunning.

A fat is a therapeutic target for many researchers that have been researching this now and for you know over a decade where there is being looked at to help as a treatment for about diabetes because you do improve metabolite health like from Browning effect, but compare that to like exercise, diet, what you're eating. I don't know that matters. I don't know that the cold even compares. I don't I don't even know that we should been talking about the meta lic benefits of IT when you when there's like so much more bank for your .

but that bringing the top of the yeah .

exactly and it's okay. I'm making more about the country and my muscles. I want to be doing hit and vigorous exercises for all the other benefits. And guess what? I get mad control biogenesis from that like pretty robustly.

Is that with the Brown Browning of the fat? Is that in and class in? Is that one of accused that i've heard about this? If you've seen this stuff?

No, that's interesting.

So it'll be people screaming us in the comments. But when I was oh ship, when i've been to call you ah when i've been with uh, huberman, there's something to do with the wrist area kind of up to the bottom of the palm. And something about the clinical as well are being an area which is particularly accept able to um benefiting from cold exposure for this Brown adipose tissue thing.

I heard this story that sounded true, which was during wildwood too, the germans were trying to work out why the fighter pilots were dying so quickly when they were ejecting over the british channel, that said that the'd run out of fuel or theyd been shut down, and or that the engine had failed to some reason another and the pilots were ejecting, and they were finding them dying very shortly after the plane had gone down. So they had a lot of prisoners in one former another, they were able to do these tests on. And what they found was that if the life jackets lifted the class up out of the water, the survival time went through the roof. So there's something very important about this area of the body being under the water, and that is the converse reason currently, which is why your cover ical should be under when you're doing deliberate coextrusion.

That's interesting. I know there's you know when you when you get into cold water, particularly if you're not adapted like you're not deliberately doing IT, there's a cold shock response, right? And so I wonder, you know, in some of that plays a role and like people actually having a dying from from getting in really cold water, I don't I wonder there's .

a connection there betwen, when IT comes to exercise, what is your framework for designing and exercise routine?

Um well, so for me, I personally get very motivated when I understand how things work and and look at data and the outcomes and I think, okay, what I need to you know get my routine around this whatever no is is is the data um and so I have been pretty convinced that i've always been like a runner. I always been enduring more than an enduring shocky. I'm not an athlete at like i've done like one marion in my entire life.

I'm not out there clock in those kinds miles, but I do enjoy going for runs and I enjoy um that's what of enduring exercise. So um for me that was always what I might go to and less focusing on resistance training as we've talked about, hugely important for muscle mass. But um the question is, well, how hard do I need to go on go on the endure? So IT does need to be more but vigorous exercise, workout or moderate intensity, lower intensity.

Is anything Better than nothing? Yes, I think at the end of the day, like the most important thing is habit. Like what are you gonna consistently do, right? Like you are gona consistently do some sort of physical activity and IT needs to be that, like whatever is that you will do otherwise, like you can talk about what's the best but if you won't do IT IT doesn't matter, right? So um I try to get a lot of vigorous intensity exercising, so that would be eighty percent max heart rate.

And um the reason for that is because i've been pretty convinced if you are not an athlete doing more than ten hours a week or ten or more right of in dance training. So if you if you're not that person, um I think that it's more beneficial the data suggest is more beneficial to engage majority of the time in more vigorous intensity exercise versus what's zone to training, right? So like a lower intensity year, I guess it's more modern intensity.

Uh the talk test kind of exercises right where you're breath y but you can still have a conversation which I do like doing those as well, please. One of having a conversation with someone on iran, it's nice. Enjoy IT. But um I do also go harder. Um I do a lot of high intensity interval training. And um I think that the there there's evidence for that um if you are going harder and you're getting that heart rate up to eighty percent and next heart rate you're increasing that lack and we've talked about this like you, that in itself is beneficial um it's beneficial for the brain and I think that's one reason i'm particularly motivated because i'm very interested in brain health and so lack tates been shown acted is consumed by the brain during physical activity this has been shown in humans and IT fuel basically noral function while your exercising is your brain is working harder.

While you're exercising to like your heart and your muscles, your brain is working hard to and lack day is feeling that and you're basically increasing north and american and serotonin from that late so acted itself is actually IT can be used as an energy source, a very utilized energy source, much like beta hydrox xy butera, which is a key to one body that you make when you're either in or on A Y genc diet um is very similar and so lacked increases those neurotransmitters ors IT also increases that brain driven a trophic factory which is beneficial for growing new neurons, is beneficial for neuroplasticity, for basically making you feel Better, making smarter, staving off in your agent of disease like this. You want be DNF like that's what you want. And so and again, this is all evidence, space studies that have been shown in human showing that the higher intensity, the more intense to work out, the more vigorous, the more latte and late is signaling to increase that.

And it's the way that your muscles communicate with other organs like it's it's increasing light and latte is going to other it's being shuttle to other organs and it's signings to them to do these beneficial things. It's called the last take shadow. It's also being shuttle back into your muscle and doing things like increasing glucose sub.

We talked about that as well. So the elected itself is only gonna come when you're cranking up the intensity, when you're working hard enough that you can get enough oxygen to your muscles to basically produce energy. So that sort of the the I am actually trying to make more elective and the active increase doesn't last long.

It's pretty transient, like a twenty minutes or so you'll be back to your baseline after pretty intend to work out. So um there's data not only showing that it's beneficial for the brain and be great brain of neurotypical c factor and these neurotransmitters is talking about, but also um lacked itself is used by neon so the lacked is going into your brain is transported across the blistering bear. It's used by neurons as an energy source and in fact our neurons prefer lactate so are extra cites which is as a supporting seller brain.

They make a lot of lack tape because they actually are what's called logistics. They use glucose without their market country as energy, and they shuttle the lactate out and neurons to take IT up. And so neurons like to use lack tape because they use they they they can use lack tatas and energy source without um using as much much energy as they do with glucose. So IT takes more energy to use glue OS to make energy than IT does take. That makes sense.

It's so funny. Even when you are in school, people learn about the threshold ld and know that that was the reason that your muscles burn when you're doing cross country running in thirteen years old or whatever. And it's almost like the enemy.

In some ways, it's the thing that hurts. I don't want IT. I don't like that. And now you're telling me that IT might actually .

be super useful. Super it's definitely the thing that you want. Um it's it's it's it's hugely beneficial for the brain. You know again, it's it's also beneficial for the blood.

Brain barrier is increasing, vee jeff, which is a growth factor that helps you grow new blood vessels and like repair blood vessels that your blood brain barrier who doesn't break down, which happens with age. So IT is and I was talking about the neurons using IT. Um there's there's evidence that when so when your neurons use latte, they spare glucose.

They don't need lucas because they are using elective for energy, right? And what happens is called the glucose sparing effect. And what that means is glucose can be used for other things. And what it's used for is producing its a IT makes a precursor for a glue thy on which is the major antioxidant, the brain. And so um there's actually out there's there's research out there looking at giving people lacked infusions that have tb R I.

Well.

it's like dian late so IT feels like you know sAiling, but okay yeah so so people that have A T B I traumatic brain injury, they they have massive like injury in their brain right and um they need good thy on its a very potent antioxidant, but the glue is being used up to make energy. I mean it's not there's nothing there to make the glue fy on.

And so there's the studies that have shown that the sorting acted fusions has a beneficial effect with tbi because IT, again, I think this is the mechanism that's happening. One of many is, is helping with a glucose sparing. So the glucose is used to make more anti oxon's your brain.

So at that on top of it's also making b DNF bring out trafic acr. okay? So I think they'll .

be a lot of people listening who fall into one of two camps. Almost everyone listening will be training in somewhere or another, right? This is audience of jack people.

One will sky toward the body building style training. It'll probably be a three to five day split. I could push her legs, or maybe a body part split, or something like that.

And those people will likely be trying to hit you know six to ten thousand steps per day. So they'll be focused very much on the resistance training. We'll be another camp of people who are like heavy on zone to.

They'll be the runners, they'll be the cyclists. Maybe it'll be some hybrid training people that are in there, but even the hybrid training guys are going to just be doing like either camp on a camp two. What you think is that there is third camp, which is this high intensity, vigorous exercise, and that that may be the most important one of all.

So I think that for talking about the the camp with the zone two and if if we're talking about athletes more, I mean, these are people that are closing a lot of miles.

People oh so .

committed exert do maybe four hours a week of exercise theyll a poke around and they will .

like they'll keep on top of that runs through out the week or whatever.

Yeah, I think that if that's so, again, going back to like if that's what they gona do, if this running is beneficial, like you're also gonna a lot of benefits from just doing ism too, right? Like if but you know there is, I think that if you can step IT up to being a little bit more vigor, if you can still do that and habitually do IT um incorporate some high intentional training in there as well, I do think it's very beneficial.

And you know it's also beneficial for the view to max improvements, like there has been studies that have been done looking at people that are actually meeting the requirements for um a robic exercise per week. So it's like two hf hours a week. And even if they're meeting those like doing moderate intensity exercise, there's like forty percent of those people will not improve their vo 2 max like they are called non responders is not really know why they don't respond， but it's thought because you know improvements in in your cardio respirable fitness as measure by b two max, it's an adaptation. And in in order to have that adaptation like a stronger stress er will produce a little bit more of robust adaptation. And so there are studies that have identify like people that don't respond, if they then engage more high intensity training, they can get those were to max improvement.

That's forty percent of people that would do be doing your zone to plus resistance training style stuff that doesn't pick up. I mean, Peter tea told me that V O two max is the single most important metric when looking at someone's longer gev ity. How much two.

three thinks in that? I I think that absolutely he's right. I think vio two max is one of the single.

And the thing I love about IT is that it's something that you can measure to biomarker. I think it's one of the most important things. absolutely.

And there's you know there there is some evidence that like doing doing this bigorre exercise important, but IT has to be like a longer interval type of exercise. So you know, at least one minute that would be sport of the minimum, but like Better if you can get to four minutes. So there's something called the norwegian four by four protocol.

And that four minutes at the highest intensity that you can maintain for the entire four minutes, followed by three minute minute recovery of leg light, light exercise. I knew what your heart rate to come down so that you could do again four times right? So the no resume the norwegian .

four by four um .

and you know there there was a study and I like I like this is one of the studies that inspired me and this is this was a study out of U T. Southwestern dallas and um the study took fifty year olds that were healthy but they were not physically active so they didn't have like texture, day beds and all that, but they weren't active.

There was a detrained exactly.

They're d trained and they put him on a pretty intensive training protocol for two years. Kay, two years IT was a two years in adventure and IT was a progressive protocol. So obviously, when you have an untrained person, you don't just write out the about no, region four by four, day one, no, that's not gonna happen.

So IT took them six months to kind of work up their they are training right their endings. And by the time they ve got to their six months mark, they were doing about, you know four hours a week of what's called maximum intensity exercise. So this is vigorous, this this .

four hours a week of maximum .

intensity yeah wow. So they were doing so they were basically doing IT was like is as high as you can maintain, you know, in vigorous intensity workout for thirty minutes. Basically they're doing these thirty minute workout. So you're doing like seven, five, eighty percent max heart way for thirty minutes.

O K, so do that eight times A K.

yeah. I mean, so they're also doing they're doing other things as well. So they're doing .

it's not when I say four hours a week.

they are exact for they were doing exercise for hours a week o um but they were doing um a majority of that was maximum intensity exercises. So a lot of that was you were doing like thirty minute sessions of this, and I think they're probably like one and have to two hours of that. yes.

And then they were also doing some strength training and then they were doing the norwegian four by four. So that was kind of A A nice sort of baLanced and then the control group was doing this sort of, I say string training, but IT was more I guess body weight you know kind of stuff. Um the control group was doing that.

So that was a type of sort of body way training, but IT wasn't high intensity like IT wasn't like the the cross kind of stuff that you could do. IT was was more like but lower stretching kinds stuff, maybe yoga ish kind of thing. And um so so after two years, these people like the the cardiac structure, so as we age, our heart gets smaller and they get stiffer and this happens it's like part of ageing um that results in a lot of things.

So a cardiac disease rise goes up. But also like your exercises, performance and capacity was down. So so after that two years of you know doing this pretty vigorous intensity exercise protocol, they are um the people of the fifty year old.

They reversed their cardio structure aging by twenty years. So their hearts were looking like thirty year old hearts versus fifty old hearts. And this is after two years of doing this to me IT was so motivating to go out.

This five year old can do this like these were untrained people who don't usually work out. And by the end of this two years, I mean, they were like getting at IT. Um and so i've you know kind of stepped up my my game a bit also like i've got a coach coming and i'm working with um to two days a week to do. I'm doing a lot of uh it's like a resistance training, but like kind of interval as well. So i'm getting the high heart rate and and .

that into so funny to see Peter tear and yourself kind of converge on this new is not as if it's new. But IT was definitely something that I wasn't hearing about four years ago, wasn't hearing people talk about this. Everything was zone to IT was, you know, like go slow to go fast or whatever the tag line is.

And one of the problems we deserve to is the imi. Quite a high duration by design because, you know, forty five minutes or an hour, multiple times per week, she's actually difficult. So lots of benefits of improving vio two max.

What are take through the norwegian four by four again? And then what else is in there if protocol or a number of protocols you are going to design? Here is a program that you can take away today into your gym and do that will help to improve you of the o two max detail. People.

I would say the origin for by four is by far the best. And you're gonna get the for the people that are really um determined and committed that would be at that would be the four minutes of the exercise intensity is hard as you can go and maintain IT for the entire four minutes.

So I into that what what do you mean is how do you can go and maintain IT?

What does that mean that means you don't want to go like all out like like ninety five percent of your your max heart rate um because then you can only last relate a minute, you know and so so then you're onna go down, you're you're going to slow down, right? So what that means is like you want to to go you know I might for some people might be like seventy five percent max heart rate, right?

So some people might be any percent, but you want to go as hard as you can for the four minutes um without like really slowing down. You kind of have to pace yourself a little bit, but you don't want to go too slow, right? Like you you definitely can't be talking like you should not be able to talk for sure when you're doing IT. So it's hard enough that you just absolutely can talk, but it's not all out minutes four minutes and then three minutes of totally light like you're going all the way. This is like, you know you you're like back to like the zone one if you want to call IT something .

if you could come down yeah you .

do after three minutes because you want to give your you want to a recovers that you can do IT again and and you repeat IT. It's it's a four if the four time protocol so you do IT once and then repeated three times or you just called the four by four, I think that's probably one of the the best protocols to improve the youtube maxo doctor Martin gala, my pat am on my podcast. He's a real expert on this high intensity training protocols.

He is a lot of research on IT. I make mystery university um in ontario, canada and he also says you there there is evidence that a one minute protocol. So like just even doing like an introvert like one minute introvert and then doing that like you know a few times also can improve or two max.

So that's a little easier and also it's easier like I like I I do one minute arables. Um i'm trying to now incorporate the four by into my routine um which is coaches help with that. So um but imagine it's a motivation thing.

which is probably one of the biggest hurdles to get over. If you got any program in front of you that isn't the norwegian four by four for the day you go, maybe it's back in by step. So maybe i'll just go for a little jog. It's like, yeah, IT is.

But again, like I said, you do have to do so. You try to make IT consistent. So a .

frequency per week.

Well, the norwegian four by four would be like one time a week. okay?

And yes.

the hard day, that's less.

that's less.

The hard day is okay.

Is there any benefit to going twice per week?

Probably a fifty .

year old did at one time a week for two years.

and they reverse a cardiac structure aging by twenty years. Um of course they were they were also doing other vigorous intensity exercise. IT wasn't the tortuous and region for you know.

like so if norwegian four by four is gold standard at the moment for improving the two max, what would be some examples of other vigorous exercise, a workout? What else is in that bucket?

What people can do, what they enjoy doing? So you can go for a run like I often go for a run and you know i'm doing seventy five, eighty percent, my max art rate, uh, usually at twenty minute run that I do that. No, so like is intense.

You can maintain for twenty minutes like that's what you want to do. You want to to get that, you get a feeling for that. Um so if you like runs because there's a lot of benefits to running you out.

nature. I guess some people do on on trend mail. I'm not so big on trade meals like I i'll do them like when I go a jam or something traveling, but I like running out in nature.

I think there's just there's lots of benefits to doing that. Some people like to get on their bike and cycle. So like you can just go on your bike and do at twenty to thirty minute, uh seventy five, eighty percent max heart .

right cycle right. So what we're aiming for here is seventy five to eighty percent max hard rate for round about twenty minute exposure.

You can or you can do you can do like a high intensity enervate training. So um so high intensity table training would be you're going to you gna go more than eighty five, eighty percent, right? You might go you're going to do like more like a sub maximum, perhaps perhaps even a maxim interval, so you can go up to ninety ninety five percent max heart rate.

So that would be imminent. Obviously can only maintain that for like so long, right? Some people might be thirty second .

pushes or mitted to about.

I do a lot to as as well. And often times I like to do something every day and most days of the week. And it's funny.

I kind of adopted this this routine when I was. I was kind of china do a little bit like join so october. But I was like every day, october was going to work at every day. And I noticed as like I could do this, i'm doing IT for like one month and I don't IT wasn't going as hard as like this guys and doing the so bcd ber like competition. He was like they were just.

and if you .

do something, do something every day. So sometimes I do you like a ten minute to bottle where I get on there and I just go hard for ten minutes. It's only, you know, it's most of time i'll do a forty five second on.

Fifteen second off was three to one ratio. I really like that one. But sometimes I do twenty second on ten years off. So it's like I love both. But like even just ten minutes again, I time IT around like I got, i'm going to go to work and I want to feel motivated. I want to feel Better.

I want to be more focus and on my game and I just get on there for the bike for ten minutes and do IT um you know their studies out there um these sort of exercise snack now ten minutes is longer than an exercise snack, but their studies out there, where are people are wearing these like wearable devices, right? And so you can track their their heart rate and you can track how hard heart rate is going up. And so there's large, large studies.

They are called the vigorous intensity lifestyle activity. And um most people are taking advantage of everyday life like there they have stars every day to work. They sprint up them, they don't walk up, they sprint, they get their heart rate up to like seventy five percent max, heart at eighty percent max art, they they're getting intense and people to do this anywhere between one to three minutes a day.

Um I mean, these guys have like a fifty percent lower cancer related mortality, cardigan cute related mortality. And this was even true for people that identified themselves as non exercisers. So they aren't these are people that are not going to the gym or doing either like tennis or whatever.

They don't have a leisure time physical activity. So the benefits were also in people that identify as non exercisers. So my point is that the vigorous intensity is like even short birth of IT, just consistently like every day, a little bit like they do add up.

There's additive effects and they make a difference. So that's also, I think, really something that's very encouraging because some people I gotta go and work out for turning its like you need that motivation, right? Like some people don't have that motivation.

And so um it's a lot easier to just get up and do something for two minutes. It's hard. But you can do IT and you can do at your house .

what apart from running up and done stairs, what are some other ways that people can in CoOperate, exercise snacks to take advantage .

of this body way. Squad um are a great one. So you just you just you know, doing your school and you do IT for a minute and then rest for whatever fifteen seconds and then do another.

Men I mean are hard and they get your heart wake up so you can do that for like three minutes um that's a really good one and then you're going to be really sore if you're not used to IT. But and then there's the highest so you do highest. Um I mean you could do Cherry squads you could do playing on the planes, the burbs, this burpy.

So you do like the the plain thing and then you come up and jumping like those are all I think really great examples of just like easy ways to do exercise nacks, like even at your desk and um just even breaking up. We're talking about improving cognition, improving mood. Breaking up your workday with those like IT makes a difference on your mood, on your cognition like IT, IT, IT, IT helps you're getting blood flow immediately to your brain.

So um ah you were talking you were talking me about the need for people to break up the secondary time that there's some very specific risks that people can encounter if they two, 3， three for too long, too frequently.

Yeah it's interesting. Um so I never identified myself a dentally because I always done something like running or jumping rope or something like going to the gym, something that were in physically active so it's like, oh, i'm in the physically active group, are not sedentary. Well IT turns out um being sedentary is like what we've been for the past couple of hours weve been sitting here that is sedentary.

So even when you are even if you you know go to the gym or you go for runs, when you are sitting at your desk for a period hours, you are sedentary. And secondary, being sedentary itself is an independent, respectful for disease like cancer. So now do I think the marathon runner that also has a no death job where they sit at their death for eight hours is onna come down with cancer point? Not because they they are they're really putting a lot of effort in and they are physically active.

But um I certainly am not the athlete and I am a committed exercise, right. So I am putting in anywhere between you know two to five hours of you know exercise in a week depending on the week right. So um for me like I spent a lot of time sitting.

I spent a lot of time sitting and said that to me was like a big thing works like oh, that's an independent risk factor for breast cancer um which you know a woman's breast cancer risk and just lifetime risk one and eight is incredibly high and the court of course, there's lifetime factors that can sort of increase or decrease that just ism is a independent respectful for that. So again, it's it's really and so easy as so I I have started in CoOperating exercise snacks. I'll get up and all start doing some somebody with squad I think that might might go to. I also like doing um burbs have been doing some burbles and hines i'll do um every .

hour um I think every .

couple of hours i've also been starting to time them around my meals. Um so that's that's another thing I think being aware of the post predial glucose response and how affects my micco's gy function in my mood and also just doing that, it's healthier and it's so easy to do like to do like two or three minutes .

of free food. You can do IT prior .

post food but trying to do.

but please post food might be difficult.

can do IT up to .

like an hour after. So one of the things that doctors study, girl, number one, backpack specialist on the planet, taught me about forever ago. And then mark bell, also popular. Zed, this ten minute walk, fifty minute walk post eating because insulin sensitivity, because of helping to rea adjust gc levels within the blood, also the muscles of the hips, uh, and the arms across across the stomachs actually helps with digestion of food a little bit as well.

Like if you had a really big meal and all you want to do is lie down, I actually probably one of the best things that you can do to make yourself feel Better, as then maybe go for a walk. What would you say here? We've got the post meal walking crowd and the post meal burpy crowd. Like is that something that that that you're missing from one of those? Are you happy with either?

Well, I don't know about the whole arms movement eating in projection thing all that um I do know that the more vigorous intensity when you're actually going to start that feeling that burn, right when you start when you start to get up to that, okay, making some late, that's what's actually increasing. The the transporters glucose transporters, they are called group for they're in your muscle and they have to like move their way up to the top and black tie is what signals them to do that. So when i'm just thinking about the glucose, improving blood glucose levels, vigorous ous is Better.

And chasing the burn.

chasing the burn. And there's spend studies that that have compared Walkers to interval Walker. So these are people that are just walking verses walk, pick up th Epace, water walking, walk slower, pick up th Epace.

While are walking there are not running, but they're just their interval walking. And it's been shown that interval walking improves a variety of metals lic parameters more than just walking. And again, that makes sense because when you're picking up th Epace y our y our y ou're w orking h arder, you're making that. And that's one of the big signals for these glucose transporters to come up to the top of the muscle and will let the glue cos. So uh, I do think from uh, mechanistic understanding and also data showing walking versus interval, walking into a walking Better when you you can pick up th Epace, when you can go a little bit more intense, it's Better.

All right. What about becoming muscle for longevity?

So that's i'm working on you, pray, don't i'm not all jacked up but that's that's my that's been my new goal, particularly of of late. But like the past year um i've become more aware of that. I ve spent more time focusing on IT.

I now have a coach um who's great and coming to work with me to focus on that because I feel you know i'll tell you when IT really hit me um I had I had someone on the podcast mark n. dr. Mark matson and he I have admired his work for years.

He's he's like the internet fasting king like he's i've known of his research and he was in me, right? Like he's also done a lot of work on hormesis and know I ve just I followed his work for so much of my scientific career so I was very he cool the heaven on the podcast and talk to and we are talking all about everything under the sun with respective fasting and her misses in and we started talking about a training and he he's been a you know track know runner forever big big and dern athlete mm, mountain biking everything and he told me said, you know the one thing that I really regret um in my life is that I didn't spend more time building muscle mass because he had an accident he had a mountain biking accident and you know basically couldn't walk around and uses muscles for quite a period time and he said, IT IT really hit him hard and so um that was my first kind of like, oh wow like this like i'm and i've always focused on endurance. I never thought I really you need to focus much on muscle or not a bro like I didn't have that incentive to like, you know, build the muscle and I knew was important.

But I didn't really I didn't diving deep enough and in myself that I was as important. So that was the first sort of I opener for me and then I had steward phillips on who does a lot of research on resistant training. He's the one that like I helped that you identify that the the rda for protein intake is likely too low um and he he has a really good wave of explaining you know muscle mass and this what's called the disability thread hold, which is what I think everyone that has an older parent or grandparents has seen in in action where you they get older and they experiences that you know take where there thereout for whatever a couple of weeks and then audience, of course, they can gain their muscle back and then IT happens again and then again, and then all of this downhill and they can't walk, you know, and the trajectory just plus, and you know it's it's just not good.

So in order to sort of know, not help let that disability threshhold be so devastating, you really have to build up your mass earlier in life. IT actually is never too late. But if you can do IT earlier in life, it's Better.

So um training wise like I now am I used to just do. I mean really IT was like thirty minutes a week or so of like resistance training, you know where i'm just doing dum bells or something. And now i'm doing two hours a week, maybe a little bit more.

So that is a new focus on i'm working with a coach because i've noticed I do and much more likely to endure myself. And i'm just like doing at myself and I don't really know what i'm doing and i'm following like a palon class or something. So now i'm working with the coach. He is am really gray and I just am I was so sorry just after the first training session of, like, I thought I was fit, you know and here I am like just little tenants and muscle like I just even know where there oh, now I am really trying to get, I think minimum like two hours a week of some sort of resistance training or i'm working, uh, a lot of my muscles, not just know my biceps or my try steps.

So if investing in muscle, muscle is like contributing to a retirement fund that you can then withdraw from, and like the life, what is the age where IT starts to become more difficult and then afterwards is IT basically impossible to gain muscle mass?

So there's muscle mass and there's muscle strength. And i've everything that I know, i've learned from the experts like doctor IT fill ups, like doctor bread show and fell and reading their work and um their publications. So um you know muscle mass peak around twenty to thirty.

And then after that, you start to lose about eight percent per decade until you get to seventy eight twelve percent per decade. But strength decreases are even greater than that. So um you know we we talk a lot about muscle mass and that's important.

But but strength is important, right? Like you want to be able to get up and out of a chair like IT IT makes a difference on your quality of life, like being able to be independent function independently. And so that's where um at there's hope, especially because so we're talking about muscle mass gain looks like so what happens when you reach reach the age of fifty know you're not your antibodies.

Resistance is starting to kick. And right, you're not being a sensitive to the protein intake. You really have to rely more on on the the mechanical force you know of of stimulating muscle protein synthesis as the form of increasing muscle mass and hypertrophy.

So is there a time when you won't gain any I think you'll continue to gain IT just won't as much, right? You really battling atrophy at that point, too. So you know the more you can contribute earlier, the more you will have to pull from.

But I do think the strengths, the gains and strength or what is really good because um at least there are studies showing an older adult t even once that happened, really worked out much. If they start A A resistance training program, they can counter the atrophy losses and they can gain and they can like regain strength like years that they've lost. So you can really gain your strength. Gains can be really good, even in old age. And I think .

one of the things that people might be thinking, forty two, like IT, does that mean that it's too late basically for me, me, to start gaining muscle or gaining strength is IT. Is IT am I lost cause at this age?

No, not at all. No, not forty two. I mean, it's gonna get more chAllenging when you're seventy two, but even then you're going to gain strength.

I mean, they're study showing that for sure 啊。 You know muscle mass gains won't be as good, but you will you will be countering that that atrophy. You know it's it's not like it's not beneficial to .

people need to lift heavy.

Well, that's that's that's the the golden question at first to phillips. He showed that years ago um that people he he didn't untrained people first, so he he showed that untrained man um could gain just as much muscle mass and strength are lifting lighter weights as people, as the men gain, uh lifting heavy weight as long as they put in the effort. So the volume effort has to be high.

So you have to like you'll probably do a longer duration IT will be more will be doing you know more, more effort, but you can gain as much muscle mass and strength if you're doing lighter weights as long you're putting in the effort. And then brad, shown felt came in after because he was like us do that was that was untrained man come on and then did IT and trained man and long behold, guess what? Same data, the same results.

So uh the train men also could gain as much muscle mass and strength by lifting lower, doing lower weights as long as the effort. Is that the key effort, right? You have to put in enough. You have to be .

patient who doctor my is retail .

is no I don't professor .

of exercise signs at lemon college um probably I think the best guy for evidence based hyper ropy training on the internet at all at the moment.

I want to show last week and he's just so I would you really, really need to connect with them because the guy's so phenomenal he's also jacked out of his mind right say like walks the talk ah but he came on and he was explaining about the the typical sort of bro science rage which was eight to fourteen any more than fourteen in its completely pointless his rule or at least what the evidence seems to show is that anything over six and below thirty, as long as when you finish, you are looking at one to two, one to three R I R reps. In reserve. So that's what you're talking about here.

His brad shown field is one of the guys that he respects the most of the industry as well. Um the point is that you can get yourself to twenty eight and if you like, I could do three more. Maybe that's good.

Now one of the disadvantages that you have of doing that is obvious. Ly, a session like this is going to be longer, but one of the advantages that you have, this orangery rest is going to be lower. So I think, I mean, that was fascinating to me as someone who spent his entire life like allergic to going over sixteen reps.

No, no, that's just cardio. Like, no, that's just lame. That was really interesting.

Couple of the other things that he taught me that I thought we're fascinating. He's a huge proponent of tempo. So IT seems like a temple of the movement is super crucial.

The entire duration of the rap should not be less than two seconds, so you could get away with one second up and one second down, but is very important to control the events c portion of the movement. Most of the muscle growth comes in the events c portion of the movement. The long stretch that you get at the very end range of the movement as well seems to be particularly where muscle growth is discriminated toward.

So what you want to try and do is do exercises which incorporate that stretch. For instance, if you see um people that do wide grip lap pull downs, you get to this position and you like, well, my latte actually all that stretched or if you go a little bit mono, you go overhand polypes or one of his favorites, which is this like a single ARM wrap around a lot poa cross. So if you can imagine you ve got a cable machine over that and you actually getting into this really super stretch position and you're pulling right background and you you're feeling that that but yes, for him, the the key things I took away from that was one to three reps and reserve.

Tempo seems to be just a great way again to reduce down the load because you could still get to three reps and reserve on ten reps. But because you've been doing tempo, it's so much harder. So again, you have all of these different things that you can use to manipulate the difficulty in the amount of grapes that you need to go through.

And just a little pause at an extension in whatever is the bottom of squat is going to mean, again, you don't need to use quite so much weight going to put you into that uh, the muscle stretch position, which is why most of the hydro ocs and just I think a two countdown on whatever is you're doing just seems to be the smartest way to do IT and reduce injury risk. It's going to me, you don't need to use uses much weight going to maximize that uh time and attention ah they were talking about. And it's going to mean if you do do a little pause at the bottom and then get you back up, it's fine. So that's now for me, all of my training, my entire training protocol is built around that type of tempo rampage and loading with the stretch at the bottom. So was, he was so simple as great to hear.

That's really great. I mean, easy to follow a tocom, I mean, for sure. And I do remember a doctor, bradshaw, felt talking about the some of the same things with the eventual movement and the stretching of in all that like being really important for hyperfine course, my my new code to the nose, everything she's like .

on top of all of IT. So what about training when you're tired? A lot of the time people don't get as much sleep as they won, or there a little bit more stressed or whatever they think i'm tired.

Should I train? Yes, if I train, I make myself more tired. That might be dangerous.

So whatever, what? What do you think? Yeah absolutely.

That's that's the time way we should train most and we kind of talking about this, right? So you know they're study showing that if you don't get enough sleep, you can have a higher all cause mortality than someone who gets enough sleep. Unless you're physically active, physical activity belongs some of those negative effects of knockin enough sleep, you're tired.

You you should go get out IT. And also guess what happens? You don't feel more tired.

You feel like, especially if you're gonna go do like a hit work out, you feel invigorated, you feel Better. You you're increasing blood flow to the brain that which you need, right? Your lowering inflation tion, inflation tions.

It's making you tired inflation tions. What's giving you that that tired feeling? And so exercises is the the counter to that right? Exercises, one of the most robust ways you can have an anti fan matory response because your body is naturally.

You know, there's one thing, I mean, we talked about taking omega series. I think there's ways to reduce inflation tion by by, by taking certain photo chemicals or mega series. But exercise is forcing your body to use all of its genetic pathways to counter that inflation tion. And IT does IT for a long time. It's not just a is quick.

You meta zz IT, how long is IT in your blood? What's the half life of the compound deal? This is like days after, right, so that the little bit of stress that you're putting on your body, that anti flaming effect is so much greater that IT counters the stresses of life, of everything and metabolism of just, you know, thinking in breathing.

So I think that exercising when you're tired, you should be motivated and know that you're actually you're going to feel Better. It's going you're gona you're going to be less tired after like you really are, especially if you don't go for like a five hour run. I mean.

like a yeah I suppose as well. You know one of the things when you've tired, your injury risk does go up, your ability to do fine, control motor movement and stuff like that. So if you're going to go and get that session, but you've only had five hours sleep because the kids woke up at for I am this morning and in the nightmare or you just got back from a flight or whatever, like don't try max out today, right? It's not it's not three R M deadlift day. It's I going and I try and work hard but not kill myself.

right? You either. I mean, if it's you know, it's always easier to like like I said, if you could just do like a hit session that's great or just do you know do a high intensity sort of body weight exercise work out, right? You do some pushups, you do some put you know some put ups and and squats or whatever you know or lift lighter like you're saying where you're not you're not gna.

The other thing is like the story that you tell yourself about being the sort of person that maybe didn't have an ideal nights left but still went and got after IT. And this is totally separate to the physiological effect. Yeah, I suppose the indolence ins of the actual session will help with this. But like, I overcame a difficult thing today, like that story. The italian ourself is so powerful, and IT IT helps to kind of reinforced this positive self image of being someone who happens to life, as opposed to life happens to them.

Yeah, I mean, this is like, this is something that I think about a lot as apparent like the little wings are such confidence boosters. You know, like IT doesn't have to be like the big thing that you're going for but like just a little win like I went and I did ten minute workout, you know it's like a little win like .

good .

for yeah I mean IT IT makes a difference and I think you you set up like beautifully, like it's it's a confidence booster. And I mean, those things do sort of I think they add up and make a big difference.

What else haven't we said about exercises? Is anything else looking in there that people need to be aware of?

Um I think you know the big thing was was covered with respect to vigorous intensity, really focusing on on getting that vigorous intensity every week, focusing on the view to max training, knowing the brain benefits and then any any kind of resistance training, obviously important. This is the really, I think, big main things.

What would be if someone is going to go get that light tested or do a few to max test with the mask on and all of this stuff? What is a rough benchmark that people can use to check? I am making progress. This awful norwegian four by four torture device is that i've been doing every sunday for the last six months has helped. What can people do the like home version of the test?

Yeah so I see a lot of people use there um apple watch, which does measure v two max. But I would say um if you want an evidence based way to measure the auto max, and the reason why the apple watch isn't necessarily accurate is ah because h so so the thing that really been shown to to be a good way of estimating B R two max is what's called the twelve minute run test or twelve minute walk test depending on your fitness level, right.

But um you need to have access to like a flat either track or something some sort of you know thing that that that flat right you could also I mean, now it's GTA be distance, so if you can somehow you clock that in on your your watch as well as you're on a bike, I think the best thing would be a track fielder, something like that. And um what you do is you you in twelve minutes, you run as fast as you can to and maintain that pace for twelve minutes and then um you have to have that distance measured, right that distance is measured um and then that there's this calculation that is done considering you know the distance that you whatever you ve run in everything and that turns out your view to max. And that's kind of what the apple watch uses, but the apple watch doesn't know in your leg running hills and stuff.

So it's it's kind of because that, that takes IT into account. So if you're running hills and stuff, it's more chAllenging. You're not going to go as far right into that kind of where I go. Oh, well, the apple watches so good.

So I wonder what the i'd be interested to know if there's people who can cheat this test in some way. Let's say that one person built over or two max, what i'm thinking with this norwegian four by four, I probably do need to start doing IT arbiter, to me, seems to be the best thing that I could think of, is the easiest to machine for me to get my heart right. Very high on it's both arms and legs.

It's stationary. There's no picking IT up, putting IT down, resetting IT and IT also means that during those three minutes you can kind of just push away like this. But I would imagine that the person who does running intervals for the norwegian four by four will develop a number of efficiencies that are disproportionate advantages for this twelve minute run test.

Right my someone does in the pool write someone is swimming intervals four minutes, three minutes whatever um how much that will cross over. So it's definitely going to be ways like hyo cks hybrid training. This whole thing at the moment is a huge, huge budget. It's basically filled the whole that ross fit used to have, I think and I think a lot of people are going to have that. But I wonder how many people have um like this proportionately good twelve minute run tests that may actually over clock the vo 2 max because of their efficiency that they have developed from using running as their modality for building that vio two max.

right? No, I mean, it's a good point. I think you for sure, most of the norwegian， for before protocols are done on a stationary bike.

Most of time the king doctor run a Patrick, ladies and gentlemen, wonder, it's been really great to meet you. I love your work. I love the fact that you just got this broad evidence base that you can tap into and teach us mere mortals about what's going on in the world of fitness and such. You've got this B D N F protocols dotcom thing, which is a free uh guide that people can take in order to maximize different ways to get B D N F. What's what's in that .

um is IT eventually protocols that that have been uh evident space that are you know how to increase speed, enough exercise protocols on a protocols. Pl, if in all. So we taking up a blueberry, things like that. And then I kind of have my protocol in their interviews like this is what I do. But yes, so it's I think some people want to know how much you know how hard do I go to get my body and up from iran or workout or what do I need to do? So there's there's a kind of the evidence space protocols on different things, different lifestyle factors and behavior or you can engage in to improve IT.

Ah yeah where else should people go? They want to keep up today .

with your work youtube channel, uh called found my fitness. I have podcast for interview with experts. Sometimes that you stand to load videos where I talk about the science of something um diving into magnesium next we are also have on n on bigorre exercise.

And then i'm on pocket apple podcast polifilo. Then my website found my fitness stock com. That's where you can find me sign up for my new slighter. But I would go to the protocols to get all the the good to cols on improving brain .

health basically.

yeah. Thank you, runner.

Thank you so much. Has been fun.