#955 - Girls Gone Bible - Is Church The New Counterculture?
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Talk to me about what you think is driving this religious revival among young people at the moment. Go ahead.

Well, I think what's driving it is the spirit of God himself. I think that, you know, we are in such an interesting time in history right now where it is basically what seems like the generation of the internet and AI and social media. And at the same time, you literally have God, you have Jesus infiltrating the entire earth with his spirit and like reviving people's hearts towards spirituality. Yeah.

And that's why I feel like you see a rise in all of spirituality at the moment. And it is like the Holy Spirit coming and stirring everybody's hearts. And right now, specifically in Southern California and in so many different parts in the UK, so many different parts of the world, we all just know that the Lord is really getting ready to pour out His Spirit in a way that we haven't seen it in a long time. What do you think is missing from pop culture? Were you going to say something? Well, I just wanted to add on to that that

I think why revival's coming is because everyone's realizing that all these things aren't working anymore. Everyone is depressed. Everyone is anxious. Everyone is trying to fill a void. And the only thing that can fill that void is Jesus. And that's just the truth. And so I think everybody is trying to do all these things and they're like, wait a minute, I still feel so empty. And so then they come into relationship with Jesus and they're like, wait a minute. Okay. Okay.

And so I know that's our story. We were always so lost and empty and we tried everything. And then that's when we found Jesus and he filled that void that was always missing. So what's the story of how you two met? What's the arc of how you ended up getting here? Oh, this is my favorite story. Um,

My life was just in shambles. I was severely depressed. I was just, I was like on my way out. That's how depressed I was. My mind completely broke. I spent my whole life trying to fill the void and other things. And I always came up feeling very empty and alone and lost. I come from darkness. I come from the world. And I hit a wall and I was just on my way out. And I was just like, I'm going to die.

I met Jesus in a little Catholic church by my house, and...

I don't come from a household of faith. And so I remember calling my family and being like, I think I just found God. And they're like, what? All right, Ariel, you've gone crazy. And so I would sit in the pews in this little church and I would sit there for hours and just cry out to Jesus and be like, help me. I didn't feel adequate in the church. Not that it's the church's fault, but I don't come from a religious household. So I had been praying fervently.

Would you bring me a friend that is cut from the same cloth, that can help me, that can do this walk with me, that can hold my hand through this? Five months later, I meet Angela at a job. I was crying in my hands. I was struggling so much. And she took my hand. I didn't even know she was there. I looked over at her. And I was like, is that an angel? And yeah, Angela has just been my human angel. She...

had already been, what was it, three years into your faith? Three years into her faith. And she showed me the Bible and she spoon-fed it to me every day. And it started healing my mind. And I come from a background that you needed to be on medication. You needed to do manifesting methods. You needed to go to psychics. You needed to do all these things. And I was like,

Align your chakras. Yeah. And so she starts reading me the Bible and it completely started healing my mind. And so we went on this beautiful journey together of chasing Jesus. Yeah. It seems like you've discovered something other than the sort of girls gone wild thing.

lifestyle that pop culture often pushes on young women. What do you think was missing there? What was it that was unfulfilling in everything that you'd done? Because you guys had career success, you know, an opera trajectory, the opportunity to do stuff, Hollywood, LA lifestyle. I'm sure that you could have become it girls in a different way. What was missing from that previous life? Yeah. I mean, yeah, we've definitely, um,

gone the opposite direction of Girls Gone Wild because anything that the world pushes onto you, and I'm sure you know this, like there's just so much messaging from the media, from Hollywood, from the world that is completely lifeless. That's completely opposite to what it's offering you. Like that world will be like, this is liberating. Do this, wear this, be like this because this is freedom. This is liberating.

liberating but the truth is it's actually the thing that keeps you in bondage it's actually the thing that hurts you um whereas jesus sends a message that the world sees as like that's restricting that's religious that's legalistic but really he's like actually there's so much freedom in the safety that i offer when you live life the way that i call you to

And so for Ari and I, I mean, we both have like a journey with mental health, with anxiety, with obsessive compulsive disorder. I've been sober for five years after self-medicating with alcohol to help my anxiety. You know what I mean? Like how many of us go through these vicious cycles of like self-help, trying to feel better and always coming up short. In fact, feeling worse than you did in the first place. Like that's our whole story. And so, you know,

The beautiful thing about Jesus is that once he gets a hold of your heart, he begins to speak truth and he begins to show you the truth about situations. And I remember early on in my faith around like COVID time, I started to realize like,

There was just such a strong messaging from the world. And you start to wonder, like, why are these things being pushed so hard? Like, what is really behind all of this? And I really felt the Holy Spirit begin to tell me, like, it is dark. Like, they're pushing darkness and it's leading you to destruction. Come my way because I offer life. I offer peace. Like, there's one way that leads to darkness, truly. And there's one way that leads to light. And that might sound so weird to people who don't understand this.

It might sound super religious, but take it from two girls that don't follow religion. Like we follow Jesus. We follow the Bible. And it's not a religious thing. It's actually like imagine frolicking in a field, like completely happy in a sundress. You don't have to wear a sundress, but like, you know what I mean? And it's just like a beautiful, beautiful life that he calls you to live. Yeah, it's weird. I think the I was thinking about how.

A normal life in maybe 1940, even as someone that wasn't particularly religious, would be probably from a social perspective super, super religious come 2025. That in the space of not very long, the level of sort of liberal social approaches, like how you're supposed to set your life up, what relationships are supposed to look like, maybe the way that the home is supposed to be constructed...

A lot of that's changed. And I wonder how much of this is people who have found themselves sort of born into a culture that they just feel is quite mismatched for them. They're thinking, huh, like this just doesn't align with me and I'm not really too sure why. But there's an interesting dynamic going on right now. One in five American adults have left their childhood faith behind. But we also have more young people than ever before who are converting to some form of religion. So the people that grew up with it are different.

leaving it and the people who grew up without it are transitioning to it. And it's this sort of, I don't know, odd dance that's going on. I'm trying to work out what's happening there. That's so special. It's so, it's so true. And I've noticed that too, how it's like, I mean, the younger generation right now is absolutely like they're exploding with faith and

And I think like the generation above us, they just went through so much. They went through so much in their lifetime. I think about my parents' generation, your parents' generation, a lot of them, maybe yours as well, they kind of lived in survival mode a lot of the time. They didn't have the resources we did. They didn't have the access to therapy and, you know, just like any sort of way to be introspective. Like they didn't have that the way that we do. So I think while they were just trying to survive,

We have a generation where because we have so many resources and because so many people's hearts are just on fire and open to spirituality, that, like, we want to thrive at this point. We don't want to just survive. So I think that's the difference. Yeah, it's—I think it's so many things, but I also think it's—a lot of it is shame. I think people—

Yeah.

But I want to just remind people that when I met Jesus, it was not when I had it all together. I met Jesus when I was, I couldn't even clean myself up. When I was in sin, when I was in the pit of hell and he literally took me and he took me out of the pit of hell and he brought me to life. And people need to know that's who Jesus is. But people look at it as this is a religion. This is too religious. He's giving me rigid rules and all these things.

And what I want to tell people is like, no, if you understood Jesus, that he's your dad, that he's slow to get angry. And he, and he like, I'm, I have my Bible open right now. The Lord is compassionate and merciful. He's slow to get angry and he's filled with unfailing love. Like this is who Jesus is. He's, he's dad. He loves you. What else does it say? It says that he has removed our sins as far as

he has removed our sins as far from us as the East is from the West. That's how much like we feel like because we've sinned, like we can't come to Jesus. And it's like, no, Jesus loves us through that. Like, so yeah, I just, people need to know, like, this isn't just a book of rigid rules, it's relationship. And he loves you through everything. And he's,

He's sitting there like, come to me. Like, come to me. I'm here for you. Like, come in my arms and I'll bring you to life. And yeah, so... Anybody who subscribes to...

a religion based on morality is going to fall away. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like you can only, like it's such a deeply, deeply spiritual thing. It's an intimate relationship with a person. Like I know that sounds crazy, but Jesus is a person who speaks, lives, breathes today. And so, yeah, I,

A lot of our parents, a lot of the older generation, like they just had these this religion, this construct of morality. And there's just no life in that. Yeah.

How do you describe the difference between religion and a personal relationship with God or Jesus? Because I hear people talk about this a lot, and I don't actually know what that means. I don't know what the difference is. So can you explain that to me? Totally. So I would describe religion as, you know, kind of what I grew up in, where I didn't necessarily know Jesus on a personal level, where I...

I mean, just to like get into the background of a little bit of theology, like the whole point of Jesus dying on a cross, right, was so that he could reconcile us back to God. In the beginning of time, you know about Adam and Eve, man fell, sin entered the world, and our relationship to God completely broke. Somebody had to pay the penalty for our sins.

And Jesus came, God sent his son onto earth to basically pay the price for our sins so that we could have our relationship with God back. And his whole point in coming onto earth, doing what he did, dying on a cross, would be so that we could communicate with him directly. And so religion is basically reading the Bible and being like, okay, A, B, C, and D, I can't do this, but I can do that. But you don't actually know why, right?

You know, it's obedience without love and obedience without love is completely like it's as if you're like being faithful to your spouse, not because you love them, just because you have to. That's miserable. Like obedience without love is just really sad. And so that's what a moral religion is versus an intimate relationship with Jesus where you're like, your heart is my heart. I love you because I know that you love me. And so now we do this dance together where we're

The whole point of Christianity is to be made into the image of God. The Holy Spirit spends our entire lives sanctifying us so that we become like Jesus. We develop the character of Jesus. We have the mind of Jesus. And in that way, we just serve Him wholeheartedly.

And then that's where that relationship comes in. You know what I mean? It's birthed out of love. And it might sound crazy to a new believer, but we just encourage you to try it. To try it. Because when Jesus gets a hold of your heart, you're going to be like, what have I been doing my whole life?

Like the safety, the love, the protection, the favor, it changes you. It transforms you. You have to see videos of me two years ago. If you watch videos of me, you watch me and it's like I have no life behind my eyes. And you see me now and it's like I look different. He transforms you. You walk around with a boldness not from the world, but a boldness of like, I have Jesus. Like I'm safe. I'm protected. I'm loved. Right?

What's better than that? You can't go wrong with that. It's safety. So faith is an anxiety cure for you. Faith is an anxiety cure. Yeah, I guess you could say that.

Do you have a certain denomination of Christianity that you guys subscribe to? I don't even know if that's the right way to put it when it comes to talking about what it is that you follow. Yeah, I'd say we're both completely non-denominational. I'd probably describe myself as charismatic, which means basically you just believe in the gifts of the Spirit. That's a specific religious term? I'm not saying I'm charismatic, but it's a term of charismatic. You believe in the gifts of the Spirit. You have a religious...

relationship and like a love for the Holy Spirit, which some denominations actually don't focus so much on the Holy Spirit. Do you guys feel like you fit any standard sort of Christian mold at the moment? Is this an increasing cohort of people that are going to be having personal relationship with Jesus?

Is this something that you're going to see more of, do you think? Yeah, I think that's what the revival is that's happening. It's a personal relationship with Jesus. Like, he's coming as a friend, a dad, and he's everything. And so that's how, I mean, that's why revival is happening the way it is. Yeah. Yeah.

On the religious revival thing, or the Christian revival perhaps, I wonder whether a bit of it is a firmer place for your wants or your needs to stand than just, this feels good, bro. That...

if you are thrown into a culture that doesn't really feel like it aligns with you and you feel a little bit out of place and your justification for why you don't want to behave in this way, act in this way, have these particular beliefs, follow this type of trend is just, you know, like just doesn't sort of suit me. That feels kind of flimsy. And especially if you're saying, well, look at all of the benefits that we've got from a progressive society and look at how, you know, the liberal values have really helped you to get to this stage.

It just sounds like you're...

kind of dispensing with a lot of progress that's been made. Whereas if you said, well, I'm, you know, I've got something that feels a little bit, it's a firmer place to stand. And I'm wondering whether that is in a world where you can become anything that you want to be, that's liberating, but it's also really intimidating because you have to choose from first principles. I'm going to decide every single day, what do I value first? How do I go about my life? What should the relationship look like? How should I behave with my parents? How should I show up in work? What's the friendship? You know, all of this stuff. And it's,

It's difficult. Yeah. It's hard to do that yourself. It's hard for everybody to engineer their own direction without any guidance at all. And I wonder whether that sense of having all of the options in the world but being lost because you can't choose them, I wonder whether that is sort of guiding people towards something that feels a little bit more like structure, guidance,

Oh, yeah, of course. I mean, who wants to be moving through the world not knowing what you believe? It's like this whole, and I'm sure you've talked about this, like, this whole phenomenon of, like, truth, like, my truth, your truth, truth is completely subjective. Whereas, like,

Like, real truth can't be subjective. There has to be one truth. If Ari and I get into an argument right now, right, I have my truth, she has her truth, and neither of those truths are the real truth because there's one truth about what actually happened separate from the emotion that's involved. Right?

Like, do you know what I mean? Like any truth that is run by and ruled, governed by our emotions. I don't like I don't want that type of truth. I want a firm foundation to stand on and like moving through life. And that's the beautiful thing about Jesus, about the Bible.

is that it never changes. You can count on it today, like you can in a hundred years, that it won't change based on our moods, our emotions. And like, I know what it's like to move through life, completely fluctuating in opinion and in thought, in an emotion, and it's just not stable. And like, you wonder why people struggle so much, why they

There's so much instability. And it's like they need something for him to stand on that is not based on emotion. That's really what I love about being a follower of Jesus is that he's like, your heart is deceitful above all things. Don't trust it. Trust this. You know? It's a firmer place to stand. It is. And believe me, we've tried it out. I mean, you're talking to two girls who...

lived by their own strength and then we start following this and it's like transformed our lives and you can't help but follow jesus and every day it forces you to be the best version of yourself so you can't go wrong i mean it's it's hard the the christian walk is not easy it's hard right but what's what's difficult about it compared with what you were doing previously well um for instance we are

All of us aren't good people. We all have pride. We all have ego. We all have insecurities. We all are sinful. That's just who we are. So every day, it's a daily dying to self because Jesus...

When walking the path with Jesus, it's you live in gentleness, you live in holiness, right? Which that means we're not perfect, but every day it's saying, Jesus, I'm so imperfect, help me with this. So it forces you, like, I don't get away with anything. Me and her get in a fight, I say something wrong to her, immediate conviction. I'm like,

man so all day I'll it might I'll be like Jesus will be like go talk to her right now and I'm like I don't want to talk to her go talk to her so it's like it forces you to forgive be kind be generous be selfless be sacrificial so and that's not easy the Chris that's not easy to do as human beings but um

But there's no other way to be. Without that, we're walking around prideful and sin, lustful. And that's why everybody's depressed. When the flesh is leading your life, you know what leads? Depression, anxiety, chaos, jealousy, confusion, all that. But when the Spirit leads, when Jesus leads, that's when we're anchored. That's when we're steady. That's when our souls are steady and we're

confident and we lead with gentleness and things like that. What else was difficult when you made that pivot from old life to new life? Say it again. What else was difficult when you made your pivot from old life to new life? Well, like Ari said, the Christian walk, being a follower of Jesus, he calls you to

deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow him. And so picking up your cross daily means that you've been crucified with Christ and now you live with Christ. And that means that everything about your old self had to die. But what's interesting is that while you become a new person, you become a new creation, unfortunately, you're still human and you still have all these little things, all these impurities, all these, like, I'll just speak from experience, that

Jesus has done an incredible work by His Spirit in my heart of just purifying my heart. I used to struggle with pride. I used to struggle with self-protecting. I was super tough. I was super guarded. I never felt safe in my life. I didn't feel safe in childhood. So I grew up with all these defenses and this desire for control, which is just...

rooted in fear right and so jesus saves my life and we're on this journey together and like every day i'm trying to be like him and then all these old habits and ways of being try to come up and then you have to go through really hard work of being like here we are again we found ourselves

crucify my ego, crucify this pride because I don't want it. Like you didn't live with pride on earth. I want to be like you. And that's really painful. You know, it's a lot of spiritual work. And then it's a lot of heart emotional work too. You have to be introspective. You have to allow the Lord to come and like touch parts of your heart that most of us don't look at. A lot of us don't even know that's in there.

but you give your life to Jesus and you have to be aware and it's the greatest thing in the world. You're going to do really hard work because he does not tolerate you being any less than where he wants you to be. He's that good. He's a good dad. A quick aside, if you haven't been feeling as sharp or energized as you'd like, getting your blood work done is the best place

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in the description below or head to functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. That's functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. What do you hear from your audience about what they're struggling with? What is it that they're coming to you and saying that they've got issues with? Yeah, I mean, we have, we talk about mental health so much that we definitely have issues

an audience that struggles with their minds, a lot of mental health issues, people deal with self-worth issues, people, specifically women, I mean, they're constantly programmed and indoctrinated to behave in a certain way, look a certain way, be a certain way, and then you meet Jesus and you're like, okay, he's telling me to do the opposite of this. And it is so difficult because all

Ari and I are blessed enough to have great Christian community. We have great people in our lives, but a lot of people don't have that. So they're thrown back into the world and they have to choose every single day to be like Jesus, go against the grain of what the world is pushing onto them. And that's really difficult. And

I think just the mental health issue all over the planet is devastating. People are riddled with anxiety. People are more fearful than ever. We have more resources to therapy and AI and all of these things than ever. All the information in the world and people are struggling more than ever. I think sin as well. Sexual sin is a big one just because...

they don't know why they're depressed and why they're feeling all these ways and they're so stuck. So sexual sin, you know, sexual sin has been a big one. What is sin in your understanding? Why do people need saving from it? Well, Chris, sin is literally what Jesus died to overthrow. Sin is what entered the world when, basically I describe it like this,

We, there's an issue of will in the world. It's our will or it's God's will. And you see it from the beginning of time. We have Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve chose their own will. God gave them everything that they would ever need or want. He gave them everything. And he said, just live in my will, obey my will, and you will live a life of peace and harmony and beauty. And they were like, sorry, we want our will.

Right? They ruined it for the rest of us. God bless them. And then we have Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane all those years later. And he redeemed everything that Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eden. Jesus redeemed in the Garden of Gethsemane when he said, Lord, not my will be done, but yours be done. So it's this issue of will. So we get to choose God.

which way we want to go. We get to choose whether we want God or whether we want sin. And sin is anything that goes against the natural order of the way that God designed things. Everything in this Bible that God taught, and again, it's not like rules and regulations. It's anything that separates you from God.

And sin comes in a multitude. It's not just sexual sin, right? It's impurity in your heart. It's the words you speak. It's the things you do, lying, cheating. We have the Ten Commandments. Like, we all know those. But it's more than just, like, the things you do. It's what's deep in your heart. Sin, we were born with sin. Me, you, Ari, every single one of us in this room. And so we have to actively let the Holy Spirit for the rest of our lives sanctify us and

again, bring us back to our original image in God. You mentioned that there was a tension between what girls are being encouraged to do, the way that they're encouraged to live their lives and show up, and what you think is a more wholesome lifestyle that you guys have gone into. What's that tension there? What are the issues with modern culture for women? Yeah. What are modern cultures for women? Yeah.

What is the issue for women in modern culture? Yeah, I think that, you know, modern women now are like, I don't want to—sorry, my phone. Let me just put this on. Do not disturb. Modern culture says, I don't want to go by the rules. I want to live how I want to live. I don't want to submit. Like, I want to live by my own truth. Right.

I think they read the scriptures, wives submit to your husbands, and they stop there. And they're like, wait a minute, I'm not doing that. I'm not submitting to him. But if you keep reading the scripture, it says men love your wives as Christ loved the church. What does that mean? Christ loved the church. He died for the church. So men have a way huger responsibility than women.

men have to love their women, have to be willing to die for them, right? And so it's not, it's this beautiful partnership of I'm going to trust you and I'm going to submit to you because I'm trusting that you're going to love me like Christ loved the church. So we look at it like it's weakness. Like I have to submit to him and I have to be weak. No, that's strength. That's me trusting you. That's humility and selflessness. And so

I think just it's been so misconstrued. And look, we don't want to ever be doormats, right? Sometimes we make bad decisions, we get in the wrong relationships, and we don't want to ever take abuse. But that's why we choose wisely and we choose people that love us like Christ loved the church that would give their lives for us. Yeah.

Is that devotion piece why you think people are so unsatisfied with modern relationships? What's going wrong with modern relationships from your perspective? Oh, Chris, what's gone wrong with modern relationships? I mean, we are here in LA. Yeah, we're in LA. Where do we start?

Can I just add one more thing to that? Because I think this is really important. There's just been such an over-sexualization of not even just women, women and men. Things have been truly so, so... Go drive around LA, look at the billboards. Everything is so overly sexualized and...

And we live in a culture where that's glorified, glamorized. And again, they say like this is liberating, but really it's the opposite. It's so true. And then in terms of dating, I think, of course,

The progressive movement has tried to make this whole like men and women 50-50, we're equal sort of thing. And what's so beautiful about the original design of Jesus, you got to read this book, Chris, I'm telling you, because it'll change everything.

your entire life because you literally can read God's original design for man and woman, husband and wife, and you see how much it makes sense. You see why there's harmony. Men and women were not created 50-50. They're equal in value. Yes, different in role, different in function, different in strengths. You know what I mean? It's not... We literally have gotten into this thing in modern dating where we're like this...

men and women are against each other. We've pit women and men against each other, saying the future is female and the poor men are like, what about us? You know what I mean? You're a man. I plan to hopefully have a son one day. I can't imagine my son having to live in a world where he's like the future's only female. That doesn't even make sense.

It's just this whole progressive movement that creates so much confusion and so much division. Men and women were created to work beautifully and harmoniously together, not against one another, but complementing one another. And so you see in dating, men don't want to be men, women don't want to be women, and so...

everything is messed up. It's chaotic. And that's just the truth. You come into a beautiful, Jesus-loving, godly relationship and you see how beautifully it flows because you see a man be a provider, a protector. You see, lay down his life the way that Christ died for the church. And you see a woman be like a beautiful, nurturing, loving, building up type of woman.

And it just flows. Why are we going against the natural design? It's just insane. Is there a tension, do you think, between faith and modern femininity? You've got some reconciliation that needs to happen between biblical womanhood and some of the progress that's been made to give women independence in the modern world. Do you think there's a tension going on there? Yeah, I mean, listen...

Take it from two working women who have jobs, who are love to work and who are in ministry and love what we do. And this whole there's just like this pushing of hyper independence that I think is so damaging. I think we were created as human beings first to be so vulnerable.

dependent on God. Like we are supposed to be hyper dependent on Jesus. And then as women, we were created to be in surrender and in submission to a man's authority in marriage. And it's a beautiful, beautiful thing. And I think obviously we've lost that with, I'm not going to speak on the entire progressive movement because I'm not

I'm not knowledgeable on all of it. I don't know everything, but from what I do understand, the one area that I see an issue is this

Yeah.

As it trends that way, you see the safety in a relationship like this, and it begins to make sense. I don't need to fight for power. I don't need power. I'm not looking. Jesus didn't even fight for power. I don't need power. But we do understand from that other side, because I remember being in relationships and feeling like,

I have to fend for myself. I need to work. I can't depend on him. The minute he takes it away, I'm going to be left alone. And I'm going to be like every... I remember being in a relationship. The minute something went wrong, he'd pull it away. You know what I mean? And so I felt... I remember feeling like, well, I have to take care of myself. My mom taught me you better have your own because anyone could leave at any time. So there is that other side where we have so much compassion. We do understand because the world is crazy.

I'm single right now. Dating is, it's very hard to find good men these days, you know, like a good, so I do, we do see the other side of women are scared. They are. And so we have so much compassion as well. It's all well and good talking about in an ideal world, this is how the design was previously set. We have a book that explains it. This is a good blueprint for you to follow. Practicality comes along and people have

Painful relationships, painful breakups, they're left cut adrift. Women are financial prisoners or no longer financially independent. They have to stay in relationships they don't want to be a part of. And I think...

it sounds fantastic in principle but I wonder whether in the modern world it's compatible in practice and I wonder that there's obviously going to be a difficulty for some people to commit to something like that because I think well this makes me very vulnerable totally and there's right there's no blueprint as in like a woman has to stay at home and a man has to go to work I plan to get married and still go to work you know what I mean it's more of like a it's just I I speak and

And there's so many beautiful relationships where a man stays home and a woman goes to work. We're not remotely saying that that's wrong or this is right. What we are saying is that there is a natural flow to a relationship where somebody has to, would you agree with this, Chris, that somebody has to lead? Yeah. Right? You can't have two leaders. Have you ever tried to co-lead something? It's really hard. Well, you want to have one person singing harmony and one person singing.

singing lead. If both people are singing lead, it doesn't sound very good. Exactly. Yeah. And so one person leads, the man is called to lead their household in what we believe. And so it's just, and that doesn't necessarily mean that he has to be the breadwinner. It's like all of this can't be boiled down to any sort of construct or like cliche. Yeah.

But that's the reason that that is so difficult is that you have a modern world now where for most people you need to contribute financially. You have had gains for women recently. Education, Title IX, there's nearly two to one women to men going to college and university. And I think...

the pushback feels like, well, hang on a second, we just got access to socioeconomic independence and equality. And you're now telling me that this is something that I'm supposed to submit, I'm supposed to be devoted, like this feels like a regression, this feels like you're sort of pushing me back. And I think that that's

attention that a lot of women will feel, which is I like the idea of being led. I like the idea of maybe being cared for. This sounds really lovely to me, but also I like the idea of being independent and I don't like the idea of being at the mercy of someone who I don't get to control. It's the weird thing about careers that I think one of the reasons that people prioritize careers over relationships is that only you can leave your career, but not only you can leave your relationship.

Right. Your career doesn't leave you in that way. And I'm aware that I'm going to guess you would say it's less fulfilling. This isn't where truth, et cetera, et cetera. This isn't devotion. This isn't going to fulfill you in the same sort of way. However, people come from a place of fear. Totally. And when they do that, they look for something that feels like, okay, well, at least this is secure. This is safe. I can hold on to it. It's in my control. Yeah. Oh, I felt like that many times. Yeah. But again, like I'm just going to go back to it doesn't mean you have to give up your life. It doesn't mean you can.

I believe that so much happiness, like God gives us purpose. God puts us in situations. God gives us things so we can, it's not like God wants us to just be home and just completely submitted to a man. That's been misconstrued. That's not the truth. And that's not what God says. It just, again, we're going to go back to just, I'm going to trust you. I'm going to trust that you're going to lead me because you're going to love me and you're willing to lay your life down for me. But that doesn't mean that I love you.

working it's my favorite thing ever I don't even know what I do even when I have kids like I hope I can still work because I we truly love it we love it so yeah and I'll just say one more thing I am like this whole people just have biblical submissions so so backwards and I totally understand because I was there I was like submit to who are you crazy yeah like

Being a man in God's design is the most difficult position. Like, it is more difficult to be a man in power, right, who's leading than it is to be the one who's submitting because a man's sole purpose is to literally die to himself and prefer his wife and his children all over.

That's the point. So actually, the woman is in a very good position if you are with a man who truly follows the Word of God and follows Jesus. It's something entirely different if you're with someone who doesn't know Jesus, doesn't know the Bible, and is telling you to submit. That's not what we're talking about. You know what I mean? And so...

Yeah, these are things that you have to educate yourself on, that you have to read on, that you have to read the Word of God so you actually understand and you don't get yourself into a situation with a man who doesn't even know Jesus and is telling you to submit and is abusing you and treating you wrong. Let me tell you one thing. Jesus doesn't stand for women being mistreated, abused, left, cheated on. That's not...

anything that he stands for. You mentioned some of the challenges that men have got in the modern world, finding a firm place for them to stand on what is my role, some demonization and being made to feel like I'm part of a patriarchy that I don't get any of the benefits of like, where's my Bugatti? But more men than women are becoming religious for the first time in decades. It's an increasing proportion of men over women, especially the young generation. Why do you think that is?

I honestly don't know, but it makes me really happy. Do you understand? Do you know I didn't know that? And just to hear you say that, I'm like, wow. And that answers to another one of your questions that God is raising good men of God up so we can finally feel free. Is this just to expand your dating pool? Is that the main reason? Maybe it is. I was like, oh, okay. Honestly. Thank you for sharing that with us because that just shows that

We're on the right track. We're in the end times, Chris. Yeah. Because this is coming back. He's coming back. And that's why you're going to see. There's a countdown timer. I need to hurry up. No, no, no. There's no countdown. You don't have to hurry up. We're right here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got it. I said I was going to tell you a story about when I messed up. Yeah, let's hear it. Please, finally. We want to hear it. We want to hear you talk. Can you talk? Yeah, that's fine. Don't worry. So I heard, I think I'm almost certain it was Jordan Peterson on a clip. And he said, there's only one sentence in the Bible about choosing a partner.

And it says, choose somebody that you could go to war with. Someone that would stand side by side with you. You would go into battle with. I'm like, that's beautiful. And what a gorgeous sentiment. You know, it's sort of teamwork. It's camaraderie. You're sort of fighting together. That's brilliant. And it's Jordan Peterson. He's obviously done the research. He wouldn't get this wrong, would he? There's no way. No, Jordan wouldn't get this wrong. He wouldn't mis-cite this on the internet. I already don't believe it.

I then retold this story to Jocko Willink, Navy SEAL, big, scary, large hands, large head. Large hands, large head. Oh, I know him. Yep. See? And I was like, Jocko, let me tell you this. There's only one sentence in the Bible that talks about choosing a partner. It's choose someone you could go to war with. This gets clipped, put online. And I was thinking to myself, I'm like, look,

First off, Jordan Peterson said it. Presumably he's read it. But even if he hasn't, look how big that is. No one knows all of the words that are in the Bible. Like no one knows all of it. Oh, they know. They really know. And I learned how much they know when I went for the first time to an Austin Ridge Bible church. I love Austin Ridge.

That's the church that I went to. Okay. So Easter last year, Easter Sunday last year, this is like, this is like the Lollapalooza, right? Of, of religious services. There's traffic marshals outside. They're guiding people in. I pulled in behind a, uh,

like soft top supercar that had God now as the number plate. I was like, okay, this is like a different. That was me actually. That was my car. Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you. Yeah. I thought, I thought that you drove a Koba. So I get in and the lady that's there, I thought that this was the person that was going to start and it wasn't, this was the warmup act to the warmup act to the music act to the pastor or whatever. And she starts using this sort of religious language and she's saying, guys, we must remember to have faith,

and forgiveness and patience. When turning right onto Bee Cave Road, coming out of the car park, and I was like, oh, wow, okay, even the traffic marshalling is done, is like couched in sort of Christian language. Anyway, this keeps on going. They spent 60 minutes on like three passages.

And this is what they just worked through the Bible slowly. So I was like, oh, people really know what's in the Bible. I just assumed it say 200,000. Well, I don't know how much it is. It's lots and lots of words. No one knows whether or not they go to war thing. Um,

Christian people on the internet got mad. They were really unhappy at the fact that I just like injected this cool little anecdote into a book that they really knew inside out. Anyway, look, even if the specificity of it was wrong, the sentiment was right. I think it's a lovely sentiment. And maybe if they do a second version, they could... There's only one version. Anyways...

But I do love that line. Jordan, thank you. I gleaned as if I was like, oh, yeah. I missed that one. Yeah. So it's not your fault. Yeah. Well, anyway. I think there is truth to that. It is. You find someone you do go to war with who will never give up on you, who will sacrifice for you. I would say that is true. So tell those Christians to quit judging. Ah. How about that? You mentioned earlier on your...

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Modern wisdom. You mentioned earlier on, you're on the hunt in some form or another, maybe passively, maybe actively. What do women really want from men? What do they actually want in a man? What do men really want from women? What do women... What do women really want from men? Yeah. We want to feel safe. We want to feel protected. We want to feel... We want to know that you know Jesus because...

Just being in this Christian walk, I realized that unless you, if you don't know Jesus, you're just not anchored. And I don't mean that to put people down. I really don't because I have many friends who are not religious, but I know that when I didn't have Jesus, I was so lost. I didn't know. I acted on emotion. I just didn't know. So

For me, like I need someone who is rooted, who is anchored. And the only way that you're truly anchored is if you have Jesus. And I'm sorry. And I don't mean that in a harsh way. I really don't. But I have to come from a place of how it is. I wonder whether part of that is...

a reason for men increasingly turning to the church that they feel like you know women feel displaced in some ways but i think especially over the last 10 years or so which is when this change has happened i wonder whether guys are doing that but i also wonder whether it's guys that are thinking if i want to show up and find a partner that i can build a family with it

something doesn't speak to me about what's happening in the current pop culture. And I'm going to find a different cohort, a different group of people to maybe try and build this around. Yeah. And I know, and it's just, and I just want to add one more thing. I know when your eyes are on Jesus, because again, it goes back to, we are all flawed. We have so much pride and ego and sin that I know if you're truly focused on Jesus, you're

You're going to be so focused that you're going to every day crucify yourself and to do the right thing. Because the truth is, is relationships are hard. It's hard to, in the modern world now where we're in relationships where there's A, B, C, D, where you can go on an app, you can, you're with some for two, three years and you're like, you know what? I want to try something new. But if you're really devoted to Jesus, you're going to, you're different. You're not going to be, you know. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah.

Are you worried about this opportunity in religious revival, the vacuousness and hollowness that some people are finding in pop culture, opening up a gap in the market for people who don't truly believe to step in, to commercialize that, to sort of turn it into a

I mean, there's been pastors since the beginning of time that have sort of financially capitalized on their followings and stuff. Is that something that you guys are concerned about, about people sort of seeing openings where they can take advantage of that? Yeah.

I would say this is something I actually talk about all the time because it's a really interesting time where I'm sure you know, being on the internet, that Christian content, like Christianity has become super trendy. There's more Christian podcasts, obviously, than ever. There's a lot of Christian content that's created and pushed.

And on one hand, it's the most beautiful thing in the world. We have a podcast where we know we have countless, hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of people who have come to Jesus through a podcast. It's incredible. People who have never opened up a Bible in their lives will hear Scripture, will hear the Word of God on a 30-second reel. You know what I mean? This is incredible and...

Christianity is not supposed to be relatable. It's actually not supposed to be trendy.

Christianity, the gospel, Jesus is actually incredibly offensive because it goes against our natural hardwiring as humans. Like it should be offensive. It shouldn't be that trendy. We want to be relatable so that people can relate to us and say, oh, I see myself in them. Maybe Jesus can do that for me. But we don't want to water down Christianity to be relatable. That's not the point. So there's something interesting there.

about how there is power in christian content being pushed and all of that and it i could argue like that the cross of christ loses power when it becomes trendy because there's something so like there's nothing heavier more weighty than the gospel of jesus and so to water it down to something for financial gain is obviously really scary well i imagine there's got to be a

a tension between wanting to be successful with your show and the need for humility. So, you know, this balance between boldness and humility is Christian influences trying to get a message across whilst also having this personal relationship and doing your own transformation thing and wanting to tell other people about something that's really meaningful to you whilst not perverting the message. Yeah. Is that a tension that you guys have to navigate?

I think the connection between boldness and humility is so beautiful because they're not in opposition to one another. Jesus literally embodies both boldness and humility at the same time. He is so humble, so low, the lowest and most humble man that's ever walked the face of the earth in the absolute most boldness.

bold person to have ever lived. Like literally went and spoke a message to people who would try to kill him for it. And he did not care. And he never stopped. He is literally humility and boldness. And the scripture describes him as like the lion and

and the lamb at the same time. Like that is like the dichotomy of Jesus is so beautiful. And that's what true masculinity is. Like it's not this alpha, be strong, work out and get a lot of girls. Like that is not what masculinity is. Masculinity, true masculinity is first of all, the face of Jesus, a wounded man on a cross that reigns in heaven for the rest of eternity. And it's

being a lion and a lamb at the same time. Yeah. And I just, and listen, there's been times where, you know, where everybody loves like a good job and we're trying to be bold and we're trying to, we're like, did I do a good job? But the minute we put our eyes on ourselves and take it off of Jesus, we've, we've missed it. And I think that's what a lot of people do. So it's constantly looking at Jesus, being bold and being like everything. We're not here to serve

ourselves were here to serve Jesus. And I think my whole life, I was self-serving myself. How can I get from A to B? I want to be this. I want to make something of myself. And I had gotten it all wrong.

And so what a gift that I don't have to go by my own strength anymore. I don't have to like try to be something and try to get the approval of others, which sometimes I do. I'm not going to sit here and say that I'm perfect. I do sometimes, but it's a constant, wait a minute, this isn't about me. This is about you. So it's a constant keeping your eyes on Jesus and remember who we're glorifying. It's not ourselves. It's Jesus. And that's where you get boldness. Yeah. When it comes to sharing your testimony online,

Do you find it difficult to sort of balance oversharing versus transparency? You know, it must be hard to not feel an incentive to be performative with a private transformation because it's something that's so important to you. But also, you've got to navigate your own thing and you don't want to have these incentives come and tempt you to over egg or fall out of touch with what's actually going on. But then there is, you know, a few million people that are

hanging on your every word about what the most recent update is in your faith. Yeah. I mean, it really, for me personally, boils down to my relationship with the Holy Spirit. I am

I am very, very careful because so our time with Jesus is called the secret place. Like we're supposed to meet Jesus in the secret place, wherever that is for you. You get down on your knees or you sit on your couch or you sit on your bed at whatever time of the day, usually the morning and you go and that's your time where you meet with Jesus and what happens in the secret place.

It's like you have conversations with God that nobody hears about, like it's meant to be private. And then there are things that happen in the secret place that I believe the Lord allows you to share. And there's a lot that he doesn't want.

want me to share. And I know the difference by the voice of the Holy Spirit. I can tell when something is for me. I can tell when something is for me to share. I feel a heavy conviction not to minister from a broken place. It's okay. I am broken. It's okay to be broken. But I never want to minister from a broken place. I don't want to be fully bleeding because I just believe that maybe...

I believe that the Lord cares about me more than he cares about what I can do for him. So he doesn't need me to bleed out at the cost of myself. And so that's how I measure what I share and what I don't share. It is very, this is probably the most important thing for me personally, is that like,

Lord, is this okay for me to share? I'm not about to go tell our... It's like if you and your spouse or me and my spouse have a conversation that's so incredibly private and intimate, and I'm just going out and telling 100,000 people. It's the same thing. Yeah, I think for me, I think it's a little bit different for me. I think that...

My testimony. So when I started the podcast, I had just started reading the Bible. I knew nothing. I was like, I know that Jesus saved my life and I don't know any scriptures. Angela was the biblical one, but I came, all I had was my heart. And so I would just like bleed out.

Um, I remember being like, you better get another co-host because I don't, I'm not doing this. Like I had this facade up my whole life on, on social media. You would have thought I was Princess Diana with the way I acted. Like you would have thought my life was perfect. And to be so vulnerable and to talk about my mental health and suicidal thoughts and all these things was really difficult. Yeah.

I remember I got a message from a girl and she was like, I almost took my life. And because of you guys' podcast, I didn't because I felt seen. And so every time I go on there and I'm scared, I'm like, this is really hard. But Lord, I always check in with him and I'm like, what can I say to reach your people to make it as hard as this will be? What can I can do? I be vulnerable today so I can reach your people because it's not about it's not about us. It's about us.

being a vessel for Jesus to reach his people. And so if that is bleeding out our lives and talking about the hard stuff, I'm like, it's worth it. You know? It definitely seems like anyone who takes the religious pivot gets a lot of scrutiny online. And you guys have got lives from before and you've got lives now and the lives now are significantly more public and presumably a lot more scrutinized. How do you handle moments when your past gets resurfaced against you? My...

Well, I look at a man nailed to a cross and I'm like, yeah, there's just something so beautiful about life with Jesus because you can't have a testimony of Jesus without the past, without your past. And I think...

It's a really interesting idea that you would weaponize somebody's past against them because you can't weaponize somebody's past against them as a Christian because that's literally the testimony of Jesus. We have Saul to Paul, one of the most prolific and important people, impactful people of the entire Bible. What would Paul be without Saul? Who would he be? We wouldn't have the testimony of Jesus in his life if we didn't know about the Saul that was literally...

killing Christians, crucifying every... He was in direct opposition to everything that Jesus taught and was. And so if Paul cleaned up his past and didn't want anyone to know about it, we wouldn't have 60% of the New Testament. You know what I mean? So it's a really interesting thing if someone tries to weaponize it against you because it's like,

Hello, it's literally death to life. It's literally the most beautiful thing. The sin is not beautiful. The dark past is not beautiful. But what Jesus does, how he truly takes dead things and brings them to life, and he completely takes somebody's life and turns it upside down and flips it on its head, and they become new people from the inside out. You

You can't have that without your past. So if someone's weaponizing your past, it's like, great, actually tell more people so they know the power of Jesus. But I think, and I think the other thing we've tried our best to do on our journey is to always be honest because what's done in the dark will always come to light. And we do not hide that we've had a past. And even, and we've let people down sometimes, but we...

Angela and I always try to always be honest. And so, yeah, we I think that's a big one, being honest with our past. So authentic, so honest. You have to be. Is going viral with face based content a blessing or a burden for you guys? Like, I imagine it's hard to navigate Internet fame and keep a spiritual grounding at the same time. Great question. It's been the biggest blessing.

It has been the biggest blessing of our lives. Being able to, like, the difference between us and a pastor is that we, they've grown with us. They've seen our transformation and they've grown with us. On the other hand, I'll just speak for myself. I don't want to speak for you, Ange. Um...

Usually people build a foundation before they come in to ministry. We, unquote, unquote, had success overnight and we were catapulted very fast. Like, I don't even know. It happens so fast. Sometimes I'm like, where are we? You know? So sometimes I feel like I have no place to stand on. I don't have all... What legitimates me being here? Where is my... Yeah. I don't have all the answers. I...

I'm still trying to figure it out. I'm still trying to, I still fall. I fall short of God's glory every day. I am so imperfect. I'm so flawed. I've had to unlearn so many things that I've been accustomed to since I was a little girl. I'm like relearning. I feel like I'm a young girl all over again. Like I literally have to rewire my brain, unlearn things while still teach young girls and even older girls. And so sometimes I'll be standing there and I'm like,

I don't know what I'm doing, you know? So I think that it's been such a blessing, but incredibly weighty at the same time. Is that a word? Weighty? It's weighty, girl. Weighty. It's weighty. Yeah, it is. So yeah, I think. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, there's—I would never describe it as a burden. It's not a burden. It's a blessing, and there's a cost to it, you know? There's a cost to being a Christian in general, first and foremost, and then there's a major cost to being in ministry. And, like, we have the podcast, and then we are on tour. We do live events. It's ministry in person, and we—

pray over incredibly broken desperate people who need help who need Jesus and so it's there's so much weight to it but it is the greatest blessing of our lives and I think one more thing that I'll add to that is like

You know what missionary work is, right? Like missions, trips, like you go to different places in the world or even in America and you basically just help establish culture and like a church environment and help people in different, you know, ethnic groups and different places in the world. Right.

And I heard of the story of this couple in Brazil who have this base and they basically bring in like a bunch of people, a bunch of believers, and they go out into these communities and they just help them impoverish people, gang members. Like they evangelize, preach the gospel, all this stuff. And they have like a rule basically that's like for all the people on their base, if you didn't for some reason get time with the Lord, if you didn't spend time with Jesus, you

Don't even go out there. Just go spend time with Jesus. Don't even come out that day because it is not worth you coming out in your own strength, in your own might. If you don't have Jesus to offer them, you don't have anything to offer. So for us, like I'll speak for myself personally, if I don't spend time with Jesus, I have nothing to offer in a microphone.

I have nothing to say. I will not go. I don't want to do it. We're not there for a paycheck. We're not there to be on an elevated stage with a microphone in our hands. You know what I mean? It's just like, if God wanted to take all of this away tomorrow, it's okay. It's really okay because it is truly about people. It's about bringing people to Jesus. Yeah.

The best analogy I've heard around that is that you don't serve people from your cup. You serve them from the source of the overflows around your cup. Yes. Okay. Seriously, Chris, what do you mean? You're a pastor. You're a preacher. We're going to see Chris next year. He's going to be preaching the gospel. No, no. Keep going. I just want to ask you a question later. Hit me.

What's your relationship like with faith? Yeah.

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and modern wisdom at checkout. I've said this before. There's a line in Angels and Demons, the movie by Dan Brown. You've seen it? It's got Ewan McGregor in it and Tom Hanks.

Tom Hanks is playing the professor and he's trying to get down into the Vatican archives to get access to some something. There's a bomb going to go off and he needs to get down there and see Leonardo da Vinci's secret scripts or whatever. And the Pope's died. So it's the Camelango, which is played by Ewan McGregor. And he says, I need to get down here. The Camelango turns to me and says, do you believe, professor?

And he starts giving a politician's answer and he says, well, you know, we need to define what we mean by faith, so on and so forth. He said, I didn't ask that. I asked if he believed. And he turns straight to the camera and he goes, faith is a gift that I'm yet to be given. You said that. Yeah. I'm completely open to it. Yeah. But Alex O'Connor, good friend of mine, we've had a lot of conversations about religion. I can't remember. I think the line is from Chesterton where he says, uh,

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found hard and not tried, like found difficult and not tried. And I think, I don't know, I'm completely open to it, but it's something that as of yet hasn't come into my life. Are you, do you feel fulfilled? Yes. In life, you do? I do. Do you feel a longing in your spirit, like you're looking for something new?

Yeah, I would say so. But I wonder how much of that is just part and parcel of being a human. And I suppose that when it comes to someone who has found a higher purpose, like you guys have, that if that longing goes away...

My assumption that, well, you know, like there's a translation from Buddhism that says life is unsatisfactoriness. Life is unsatisfactoriness, that inherent in life is this sense of longing, this sense of lack, this sense of something that's missing. The translation is supposed to be life is suffering, but it could also be life is unsatisfactoriness. And I think life is unsatisfactoriness is an interesting way to look at it. It is. Yeah.

But then if someone finds faith and says that thing that you thought that was built in to life, that was a feature of life, isn't a feature, it's actually a bug. And the path that I've decided to go on is something that's changed and has gotten rid of that for me. Then who am I to say that something that I think is just a built in part of being a sensitive human isn't. Right. And could be something that you get rid of. Did your parents have faith?

No, not particularly. Mum's a Reiki master, so she's spent a lot of time in and around that kind of thinking, but I don't think she would consider herself sort of formally religious in that way. Do you have a good relationship with them? Yeah, yeah, it's great. That's beautiful. Do you ever do Reiki? She does it to me, but, and I mean, she's got...

An army of women that do distant healing and all sorts of other stuff, crystals and things like that. Do you feel like it's worked at all? Sometimes I've got an extra boost from somewhere that I haven't been able to explain. And I'm unsure where that's come from. Right. And then it goes away? Yeah. Yeah. Ups and downs. That's what I used to do. I did Reiki a couple of times.

No, I really did. You really tried it all? I tried it all, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's amazing. I really, except for ayahuasca. I'm very glad I didn't go down that road. But yeah, no, I did. I dipped in a lot of stuff. Yeah. Going back to the source of the overflows around your cup thing, I think it really is important to look after yourself first. And it's regardless of whether or not you're

giving testimony or, you know, teaching people how to be devoted and find faith, or you're just trying to show up for your family or your business. Like if you haven't looked after yourself, I don't think that you can expect to show up in the world in a very functional way. And, you know, the classic idea of you're in an airplane and the masks descend and there's a child next to you. It's like you put your own mask on first, because if you're suffocating, you're a very little use to the people around you that need you. Yeah. And they do. So,

Yeah, it's got to be a difficult one for you guys to navigate, to think, okay, I've got to sort my own thing. I'm on my own sort of personal trajectory. And there's a lot of people that are very bought into this and have got, you know, decades and decades and decades more experience than you guys are doing the thing that you're doing. Totally. But you've traded, it seems to me, you've traded expertise for relatability. Yeah. And...

As with everything, you know what it's, I'm going to make an analogy that you might hate. You are the Jake Paul of the religion world, of the Christian world, in that you're someone to people that have come into this without the heritage of people that have been in there for a very long time and have got a lot of popularity. And along with that is going to come a lot of scrutiny. Well, do these people really believe what they're saying? Like, this seems like a very well-timed pivot. And it's like, well, if,

it was something that was called to me how do you know the difference between this being a legitimate personal mission and it being a fortuitous moment in pop culture where people are trying to find something that's more meaningful right and like no one's able the same with Jake Paul is he actually a good boxer maybe these fights are paid off you know like this isn't really true he's fighting Mike Tyson that Mike was that fight was thrown uh

It's an interesting time to see that sort of tension going on. And I don't envy you guys having to navigate that at all. It's hard enough trying to do it without the pressure of it being someone's faith, right? And you having a couple of millennia of momentum behind you and trying to sort of work out, okay, how do we do this respectfully without triggering people, without

looking like we're capitalizing whilst also pushing a message that we think is really meaningful to both of us. That doesn't seem easy to me.

Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, I think what's really special, especially with long form content, is that people really do know who you are. They get to know you. They spend hours upon hours with you. So, yeah, when someone looks at your Instagram, 30 second reel, two blonde girls talking about Jesus, like might not be the most convincing thing. Right. Right.

I think anybody who watches a full-length podcast of ours, a full-length episode, immediately knows, like, Jesus is in this. These girls believe what they're talking about. And it's authentic. And it really is. And we get to put our heads on our pillows every single night knowing that we seek the face of Jesus every day, begging Him to show up in everything that we do. And He does. And, you know, Scripture talks about how you will know them by their fruit.

The fruit of what we do is like this is what i'm confident in I'm not confident in that we know what to say or that we're the best in the like who cares I'm confident in the fruit of what we do in the people's lives that have been transformed in the people Of countless different faith backgrounds and religions who have come to know jesus because of um us preaching the gospel like that's

Yeah. That's everything. Yeah. And we know why God put us on here. He didn't put us on here because we're Bible scholars. He put us on here so we could look in the face of others and be like, me too. You're not alone. You're seen. We have passed too. We messed up too. And so there's nothing like feeling seen and knowing you're not alone and being like, wait.

You don't have to be perfect. You don't have to have it all together. And so we remind ourselves, no, we don't have to have it all together. Like, this is why he put us on here. And we have one audience at the end of the day, and that's Jesus. And so as scrutinized as we might get, we look at each other and we're like, Jesus. And we get so much support. It's insane. It's like amazing. They're like...

We get more support than scrutiny, if I'm being honest. I don't even really see that much scrutiny. We get, like, one or two comments, but, like, we have the... GGB is... They're the best. Their rider dies.

It's insane. It's interesting, you know, sort of thinking about this arc. Let's take, how old are you guys? 29. And? 25. I'm just kidding. I'm 35. I just sinned. I'm sorry, Jesus. Please forgive us. See, I can't get away with anything. No, you win. It's fine. Yeah, yeah. Under the table. How old are you? That doesn't work. 37. Yes, it does work. You're 37? No, no, no. Jesus doesn't like this. Okay. Yes. That's exactly how it works. I don't know.

I used to say that all the time, though. No grasses, no... That over the last, what, three decades since we'll have been consuming stuff on the internet to do with religion...

It would have only been 20 years ago that it would have been super cool to have been an atheist, that that was kind of the trendy world to be in, that it was sort of rationality. It was Richard Dawkins. It was Sam Harris. It was Daniel Dennett. It was Christopher Hitchens. It was, you know, owns, pastor, debunk.

story from the Bible, so on and so forth. And I think certainly in my teenage years, that was like, it was trendy. It was kind of revolutionary. It felt rebellious in a way. It was forward thinking. It was forthcoming. It was rational. It was scientific. And you sort of rolled the clock forward to now. And I wonder...

One of the problems, I think, is that humans aren't really very well constructed to understand statistics and numbers. We live in narrative and personification and archetype and story and good and bad and evil and characters. And this is, again, from my friend Alex.

who did philosophy and theology at Oxford, so he's way smarter than me. And he explained, well, what you're asking people to do is let go of the thing which to them feels most real, which is personification, story, narrative, archetype, characters, good, bad. Why does this happen? It's like a pro-social...

relational understanding of how things came to be. You're telling them to get rid of the thing which to them feels the most real and to start to rely on, well, look at all of these facts and numbers and statistics that we've got here. And even if you were to say, well, yeah, but the scientific method's really, really reliable. Like it's the entire reason that it's here. Look at all of the great advances that we've had. Look at all of the stuff that's around us because of what we've done. It's like, yeah, I understand that. But there's a difference between something being literally true and functionally true. And a lot of the time, I won't...

I had a conversation with Richard Dawkins about this very thing, world's most famous atheist, probably. And as I'm sat there, he's explaining about how I don't really have time. Obviously, he's very critical of religion. I don't really have time to sort of indulge people's fantasies or their delusions and stuff. I'm like, I get that. But even if you don't believe, you have to understand why people do believe. And it's because what you're offering...

as an alternative is just not very compelling like it's not fulfilling to have well yeah but let me explain to you about how this study worked and look at the r0 number and we can get we know to statistically significant value and you go i i i get that but the explanation just doesn't fit into the human mind as well as something that is a little bit more um in heritage

I love that you say that so much. Go ahead. Oh, no. I am obsessed with this conversation, but I'm also obsessed with what you said a second ago about atheism. Can we talk about that really quick about how I talk about this all the time, how back in the day, how atheism was just like, it was the way to go. It was the way to rebel. And I think because of the liberal and progressive movement that went so far the other way, so far, like

freedom, liberation, dye your hair, get tattoos, be whatever you want, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff. It went so far that way that people are like, okay, getting like a sleeve of tattoos and dyeing my hair blue is no longer rebellious. I'm going to become a devout Catholic because that's what's rebellious these days. Like truly, I mean, it went so far the other way that I just love that conversation. I think that's so interesting. And just like what you said a second ago,

anybody who would boil down like the existence of humanity to whatever theories they have the big bang whatever it might be and um basically boil it down to nothing and give no real foundational functional answer to why we exist why we're here the intricacies in how we were made as human beings the way our brains work the synchronicities of life like

It's not manifesting methods. Trust me. It's just, it's just like, how can you, how can you not search for more? How can you not yearn for more? How could you just like put a lid on, on life like that? You know what I mean? Chris. What? What are you running at? He goes, I said the manifest, it's not manifesting methods. I promise. He goes. Yeah.

Yeah, sorry, Rhonda Byrne. Yeah, it's a... Well, I mean, we said before that one in five American adults that were religious as children are now losing their faith as adults, but you've also got the highest rates of sort of non-religious to religious conversion. I'm going to guess within religious, that'll mean your guys' definition of, I'm not religious, but I have a relationship with Jesus type thing. And I do think a lot of it is...

something doesn't feel right and there is necessarily the grass is always greener but maybe a little bit of that it's like fuck like i really feel like i emptied the tank trying to do this thing i wonder as well whether uh childhood formal religion pushes kids i'm this wasn't my upbringing so i don't know but i wonder whether that one in five is people that felt like they were kind of

they weren't allowed to find their own route towards some sort of belief that really fit for them. And when you get forced into anything, inevitably you're going to push back against it. It's like, like, I don't want to do this thing. It feels like it feels like it's being imposed on me as opposed to something that I chose. And yeah, I mean, I wonder how many times you can sort of do this sort of switcheroo and just keep on pivoting things around. But yeah, the,

Atheism to me is not, there's a great story actually that, you know, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, do you know who that is? Okay, so the four horsemen of the atheism apocalypse, as they were called, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, and Christopher Hitchens. So there were these four guys. Kill me in a room with pizza guys. Yeah. One of them. Oh,

Wow. Yeah, that would be like the weirdest Royal Rumble UFC fight of all time. Can you set it up? Well, one of them's dead, so that's going to be difficult. I have cheeses on my side. Yeah, exactly. You got better hair. So they sat down, they had this bunch of famous conversations, and they were kind of the forthcoming of new atheism. There was a

a fifth person that was supposed to be at this particular meeting and this was Ayaan Hirsi Ali and it would have been the only woman that was there. She, about a year and a half ago, did a live conversation with Richard Dawkins who was one of the four horsemen of the atheism apocalypse and what would have been a previous conversation

compatriot of hers, I suppose, had she been there. And she did a live event conversation on stage and she spoke about how she'd been suicidal. She'd been very depressed. And as somebody that had been, you know, a very, very staunch forthcoming public atheist for entire life that she found faith. And she's having this conversation on stage and she's explaining about how dark her situation had been and this thing. And

So horrendous. And then she'd found faith and she felt relieved. She'd felt like she had been saved. And, you know, it's this sort of very touching conversation that she's having on stage. She got saved? That's what she said. She got saved on stage? No. No. In advance. Wow, wow, wow. And she's explaining this to Richard and Richard is a...

late 70s, early 80s, evolutionary biologist and sort of a hard, fast, old school atheist type person. So she explains this very heartfelt story to Richard and Richard's first response, apparently after the applause dies down because this woman sort of opened her heart up on stage is, yes, but do you really believe that Jesus moved a rock out of the way of a cave on the fourth day after the thing? And my friend Alex that was there said he just kind of didn't get it and it felt very...

sterile and sort of not...

It just didn't feel in touch or aligned really with what was happening because what you're seeing is somebody who, regardless of whether you believe that that was something that happened, it was obviously a very emotional, very meaningful conversation and journey that this woman had gone on. And then to sort of bring it back to this statistic-based, well, how does a man move a rock that weighs 45 tons? You know, it's like, it just felt, and that I think is a little bit of an explanation around why,

new atheism is just less sexy at the moment, that it feels very sort of cold and sterile and it doesn't, regardless of where you land on faith, that's not a particularly reassuring message to hear. If one woman opens up about her suicidality and her depression and how much she was struggling and then this thing happened that made her feel

hole for the first time in a very long time. And your response is to do like some legalese bureaucracy red tape thing about the weight of a rock and a man's ability to push it. And I think that story just really stuck in my mind as something that's like, are you surprised that people don't find atheism that welcoming or sexy? Like it's the most cold sort of

story that I can think of. Chris, it's lifeless. It's lifeless. It is absolutely lifeless. How can you possibly move through life like that? How can you possibly move through life just, and even with that guy that you're talking about, bless him, I'll get his name and I'll pray for him. But like, truly, I mean, even that response is just so fueled by pride to be, you know, to find an answer.

to combat this like incredibly beautiful encounter that saved this woman's life, it feels like, and then to bring it back to that. But that's what so much...

That's what fuels so much of our world is pride and ego and arrogance and wanting to be right and wanting their point to be the one that's true. And they'll like fight to the grave to make sure that it's proven true. It's hard and hard. Can I ask you a question? How do you deal with just like, what is your take on humility and just ego and pride? And like you...

have a life where you're incredibly successful and you're incredibly wise. You have a lot of knowledge. You have the gift of wisdom on your life, by the way. You didn't, no offense, you didn't cultivate that. God gave that to you, but you definitely have a massive gift on your life and you're so knowledgeable. So I think somebody like you would be really easy to fall into like

I know everything. Don't need anybody. Do you ever deal with anything like that? Before we continue, you've probably heard me talk about Element before, and that's because I'm frankly dependent on it. For the last three years, I've started every morning with Element. Element contains a science-backed electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium with no sugar, no gluten or artificial ingredients or any other BS. It plays a huge role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue while optimizing brain health, regulating appetite, and control.

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You can get a free sample pack of all eight flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com slash modern wisdom. That's drinklmnt.com slash modern wisdom. It's a good question. I'm British, so it kind of gets beaten out of us as children a little bit. We're sort of nationalistically allergic to having too big of an ego because there's tall poppy syndrome. You know what tall poppy syndrome is? No. The flowers? Yes. So...

The point is the tallest nail gets hit down first would be another way to put this. But if you have a field of poppies and one of them is very tall, that's the first one that gets cut. So if you stand out too much, if you do something that's too different, that gets discouraged. And that's very common in the UK. It's also very common in Australia. It's one of the reasons that I love living in America because...

For all that America is a cis, hetero, patriarchal, racial superstructure that's misogynistically keeping everyone down, the American dream is still very much alive, I think. And you can be whatever you want to be, for the most part. Blue Sky Vision is here. And if anybody from America thinks that that isn't a supportive culture, go and spend six months in the UK and tell me that it's not worse. It's a very sort of... Stay in your lane, right? You could summarize it all as stay in your lane. So...

That kind of pride thing has not been something that I've had to deal with too much. Also, I've made a career out of being the stupidest person in the room of every conversation that I've ever had. I bring experts on or I bring people that are, you know, significantly further ahead of me, academics, intellectuals, commentators, thinkers, you know, whoever it is.

Thank you, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Specialist. Specialist. Thank you. Specialist. You're so much smarter than you, Chris. You're in illustrious company. I know. Yep. And it's very difficult to sort of get out ahead of yourself there. Because you go like, why am I, I'm always the child in the room.

Even in this conversation, okay, explain. I've got a question for you around pride. To me, pride is actually something that I would like to cultivate more of, but I'm aware that there is a particular definition of pride that I'm probably not understanding fully. So when I think pride, I want to feel a sense of gratefulness and gratitude and celebration for a job well done. I want to be able to pat myself on the back when something that was difficult was completed. Yeah.

And that to me feels like, huh, that's a kind of healthy pride. Like, well done. You should be proud of you. How many times do you say to kids, you should be proud. You worked really hard. You did that thing. But I'm also aware that pride is, you know, a fucking sin. So how do we like what does pride mean to you? And how do you come to navigate wanting to give yourself a sense of a pat on the back for a job well done whilst not falling into whatever your definition of pride is?

Yeah, exactly like what you said. There's basically, I mean, I don't know the exact definitions, but there's two types of pride. There's the pride where you are proud of yourself. If you think about God, He looks at us with a smile on His face and with pride in His eyes, right? That's not the sinful pride. That's bad. That's like pride.

pride as in like I'm proud of you you're my son you're my daughter and I'm proud of you so that is a type of pride I look at Ari and I take pride in my girl like that's a good thing um the obviously bad pride the sinful pride is the one that is um arrogant and self-protecting and um

manipulative in a sense and just like keeps people out and thinks much of yourself the one that thinks much of yourself and so I think in the Christian walk and hopefully humans in general but I know it's not the message that the world sends like the world sends like make yourself big get big get on top be the best be the biggest in the room and Jesus is like

follow me and go low, go low, go low, go as low as possible. Humble yourself before the mighty hand of God. And in the right time, I will raise you up. Like that's what God says. Like if we humble ourselves, he lifts us up because if we exalt ourselves, we will always fall. Like it's just a recipe for disaster. You never want to put yourself in a position where you're trying to get higher because you will eventually fall. But if God says,

If he brings you up, it's a place. Like if he sets you somewhere, you can't fall down. You know what I mean? And so, yeah, we follow the message of Jesus. One of my favorite scriptures is it talks about how you're going to love this. So Jesus did not count equality with God as something to be grasped.

So Jesus was fully God, fully man. But he didn't count equality with God, being equal to God, as something to be valued. And instead, he completely emptied himself. He humbled himself and took on the form of a servant. And he died a criminal's death.

Like that's who Jesus is. And that's what we try to emulate. That it's not being humble and is not being weak and being powerless. It's about like having, knowing who you are, knowing what you have, knowing what you're capable of, knowing how value infinitely valuable you are and being like, but I'm not going to rely on any of it. Yeah. Yeah. And even just when you start really reading the Bible and you start reading about Jesus and how he was, um,

Everything revolves around people. Everything revolves about him being a servant, being in the dirt, his hands and feet in the dirt, helping the poor, serving sacrificially, sitting with the sinners, healing the sick. And so when you read about that, you're like, wait a minute. This isn't about me. This is about his people and helping others and being sacrificial and being one of humility. That's what makes me proud.

And it's just, it's funny when I look back on my life, I'm like, I used to want to be this and that. And now I'm like, who can I help? What can I do? How can I, how can I help your people? That's what makes me proud now. So it's just crazy how, how things change when you start, when you start following him. How's your daily experience of life changed?

Over the last 10 years or so, you wake up your moment-to-moment sort of experience of your own minds. Go ahead. If I see her mouth moving a little bit, I'm like, do you have something to say? Share one brain cell, by the way. Yeah, it's not working. Anyways, I think your question was the last 10 years, how do you go about your life? Okay, so this is how I would describe it.

So you basically go from being completely self-focused to being Christ-focused. And I don't know if you've ever heard of like God consciousness, right? Like you begin to be aware of God and what he wants and where he's at, how he's moving, what he thinks about this. The Holy Spirit. Do you know much about the Holy Spirit? Okay. The Holy Spirit is, you know, the Trinity. We have the Father, we have the Son, and we have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is precious energy.

He's a person. He's literally an extension, a part of the Trinity. When Jesus died on the cross, he basically sent out a spirit to the entire earth that whoever believes in Jesus receives the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit is not just like a force. He's not just like some angelic being that flies around and makes miracles happen and makes healings happen, which that is what he does. But he's a person. And his whole thing is that he speaks.

And like if you, Chris, invite Jesus into your life and you say, Holy Spirit, reveal Jesus to me and speak to me, you start to be aware that he's in your thoughts. He sometimes can even speak in an audible voice. He can speak through pictures in your mind, visions, dreams. He can speak through other people. And so...

Life with Jesus over the past few years, when you really lay down your life, you remove sin, you stop tolerating sin in your life, and you really allow God to purify your heart and purify your life, you begin to have conversations with the Holy Spirit all day long. It's called communing with the Holy Spirit, and it is...

just the most incredible thing because you realize like he is so intimately involved in every area of my life he cares about what i had for breakfast this morning he cares what clothes i put on my body he cares deeply when you're arguing with someone he cares when you get to your house and you feel alone like he cares about every single part and he's always speaking and so yeah that's how i would describe the past few years of my life brought up the holy spirit

Um, yeah, I always say like, Arielle's gone. She's died. I gave my life to Jesus and I live for him. And I have moments that it's really hard. Like, again, I'm going to go back to

my, it's not easy. It has not been an easy walk for me, um, from growing up in Massachusetts of a family that is, has big mouths and, um, all my best friends from back home. Like we just, we lived a certain way back in Boston. Like we grew up in the hard knocks. Like it was just, I grew up, um, I wouldn't say the holiest, you know? So going from, um,

living a certain way to then laying down my life I had to lay it down really fast like I met Jesus met Angela we laid our lives down I had to lay down sin like I had to shape up really quick with because we started our podcast really quick that was difficult I still go through a lot I'm still like it's a lot of intimacy with Jesus um it's a lot of asking him to help me because I

Um, I have certain thought patterns of how I deal with things of anger issues of, um, yeah, just like I lived of the world. I was in relationships of sexual immorality. I, I, I didn't live a life of purity. And so that was hard to lay down. I'm not going to lie, but it's a continuing yielding of the Holy Spirit of being like, it's daily. You have to see me in my private time. You would laugh so hard. It is

literally hilarious. Again, I'm like a little girl. I'm like, dad, I need help because this is really hard. And so it's just a continually continuous being like, help me. I am so flawed. I'm so imperfect. I have all this stuff that I'm trying to work out and I don't know

um, how to deal with it. And so it's a lot of intimacy with him, a lot of listening, um, a lot of communing with people. Um, I always say you will not be able to stand if you don't have people in your life, you need friends, you need to be in community. Um, and, um,

Just, I'm learning. Just constantly learning. Constantly following, getting back up, and just, it's been falling, getting up, back up, and learning. But the Bible says, you come to me like a little child. You must, if you're going to come into that kingdom of God, it must be childlike. And so, yeah, I think that I'm like a little girl. Like, you have to be curious. You have to ask. You have to know that you're not going to be perfect. Um.

when I first started Christianity, I almost had this thing that I had to, this perfectionism. I can't do this. I can't do that. And that's not life with Jesus. We are going to fall. We are going to fall short of his glory. People need to understand that. But he's still sitting there being like, come back. I'm here to help you. Let's do this thing together. So. I think in a

a modern world where everybody is their accomplishments that there isn't really anywhere to hide in that way if you do fall short then this is exclusively your moral failing to sort of own and it's attached to your self-worth your sense of self and it doesn't surprise me that you know

when people struggle when they hit something approximating rock bottom or maybe even lower than that, that they think like, I just, this is not working and I need to try and find something else. What's next for you guys? What do you want to try and do over the next few years? Like what would, if you look back in a couple of years time, what would have had to have happened for you to have gone? That was really good. That was a success.

I personally have so many dreams. I would love to go do evangelistic work in the Middle East. I really want to...

Go evangelize. I'm not sure if you've kept up with the news. It's a little bit of a hotbed in the Middle East at the moment. I do. I do. This is evangelistic. I just want to like, I love, I have such a heart for like my Muslim brothers and sisters for the Islamic world. I would love, love, love to see my biggest dream. One of them is probably to see a crusade of like a million people get saved. I want to see

I want to see God heal physical ailments. I want to see God heal things that people have been living with their whole lives. I want to see people set free of mental torment and weeping.

Whatever avenue that he has for me to do that. Maybe it's the podcast. Maybe it's tour. We are so literally open-handed like this. Like just being in, I think what I've personally learned more than anything is that being in ministry does not mean that I have to be in front of a camera. It doesn't mean I have to have the mic in front of my face. And I'm so okay with that. In fact, like, man, a season of hiddenness sounds so good right about now. And yeah, so I just, I want to see God move. I really want to see God move.

I can't wait to see you go to Islamic countries. I have such a heart for the sick and the broken and children. And so I hope God will allow me to just help the sick. And I've just seen so much brokenness in my life. And just where I come from, I come from a place where

We're taught that the only way to get better is through medication or just like tough it out. You have to be in survival mode. And I just hope that we can start building communities that people can go to and learn about the Bible and have friends that can help them. And yeah, I just I want to help the sick and the broken and help them come back home. That's that's just like my favorite part.

When we do the shows after we have a little bit of ministry time, and my favorite part is, like, being with those kids and just, like, having them in my arms and being like, I love you and giving them hope and just holding them. You're going to build an orphanage. I want to build orphanages, yes. That is Pastor Hari's path. That is, yes. She's going to be Mother Teresa, just with a boner hair and blonde hair, and it's going to be...

Yeah, fashionable Mother Teresa. Hey, she was fashionable. You know, she was Albanian like me. A very strong heritage for you to follow in her footsteps. Very strong. Yeah. Girls, let's bring this one home. I appreciate you both. Where should people go? Do you want to keep up to date with all of this stuff that you've got going on?

Thank you, guys. Well, you can follow us at Girls Gone Bible. If you don't want to do that, don't worry. I, if I were you, would go pick up a Bible and I would open it and I would give my life to Jesus if I were you, because that's where you'll find everything. You might find some good stuff on our channel, but you'll find something way better in here. Which he said. Thank you. I appreciate you both. Thank you. Chris, thank you for everything. Thank you so much. Such an honor to be with you today.

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