10 | Too Many Cats
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Hey, guys, before we start today's episode, I want to share some very exciting news with you. For the past year and a half, my team and I have continued to look into the disappearance of terr, instead chasing new leaves and following up on tips to come away. In that time.

We've also important with the oxygen TV network to bring up ventures and one to life on the T, V. screen. And we're now proud to announced that on sunday, november eighteenth, up and vanish will be coming to T, V, oxygen again that sunday, november eighteenth, s at seven P M, eastern time on oxygen.

And trust me, you don't anna miss IT mean in the entire team from season one marigot one. Phillip lowe, Donald and maritz are all back in of siller uncovering new information and terror in, says disappearance to help us out and spread the word, tweet, instagram, facebook, IT, whatever you use, I promise you don't want to miss this. You can watch up and vanished on the oxygen network on sunday, november eighteen th, at seven pm, eastern time. Thank you guys so much for your support. And now back to the episode.

No.

I mean, that guys, probably what happened to her? You think IT was brian me. Did he describe that guy? He was going to meet big.

big cat. That was a, and that makes a slight some all to you. Go of mine. I didn't remember this for years so after I was so yeah IT doesn't really speak well of me to be saying and now been advice but like .

four times did not do.

以后 拜拜。

That's .

all that. You can have IT man as as fine. It's cool.

you know, I kind of would be until that that happens to you. So give me this space before I say some cruel stuff, please. You find some evidence, so I didn't you air do what everyone to doing this.

There is none of them.

My name is um I just got a message from somebody saying that my name was thought up with the Christal disappears and that you are trying to get to hold on me. I'd like to clear up anything that was good.

I got a couple messages is on facebook that we're kind of crazy and I was just gone on the clear up. I don't know what was said about me, what you have, whatever questions you .

have to read?

Yes, right? You give .

a nickname .

they can.

对对对。 等等。

嘀嗒。

From tender for TV elena, this is up and vanished. I'm your host pain lencs afra fish mentioned the guy named big cat. I started searching forum. Not be honest, at first I didn't think he was real, but I was wrong.

I haven't lived in queston for a couple years now, so I ve vents been in the loop, but the cost up lately, I just started freaking out. I people messaging me. I even know about this cast.

Can I have nothing to hide from you guys? Like, I knew Crystal to school on out there a couple of times. He wasn't like a close friend.

I mean, I didn't have like, I didn't know. I do. Well, I just came to my house about a weekend a half dior to IT.

What he told me was that Crystal said he was going to go to your house after he left catfish.

his house that was at the morning. After SHE left her house, there was out at night time. Do you say one because the only time she's ever been in my house that was at night, and that is well before you went mesage.

I have my remains to confirm my story. And yeah, but he never came to my Sunny time in the morning. During the day, I 的 i had no ill will， turns that girl and I don't know why he would try to point fingers at me.

I asked about the last time I saw a Crystal all .

over the circumstances I was at my house was is this award we can do before? Um you know he was said to be missing.

So is that like the beginning of july?

I don't remember exactly when I was honestly and I couldn't tell you in the month of the day, I don't remembers exactly what happened. But you know I I guess he invaders also I don't not clear at the the prey and another world, but IT is just like a casual things. You kind of invited herself over avs bear. He didn't seem like he was strong out on drug SHE didn't .

seem sad.

I've heard all the rumors. You know, I go on, Christine, and not once have I ever heard my name involved in the in the past, my name has been like somebody has came to me with some rumors, have heard and IT was actually rumor about catfish. So our names have been gotten this up in. I ve never heard my name in the part of this story at all. This is the first time I heard body bring my name up.

And how well do you know cat fish himself?

I do not know. I just well known around the town and and a small town everybody kind of knows everybody but um I just heard his name around town, but I don't know that I personally.

Did you in Christal hang a lot?

No, we didn't hang out my hand on. Yes, he was over. SHE is hanging out with my name and I, and and then I I wasn't too proposed with her, but he is just chooses a very friendly person enough.

And countries invaders, often the 你 看看 我的， i really done, said nothing, obviously too important, I said, because nothing like stand up. SHE seemed fine and SHE didn't seem like like anything crazy that happens. I wish like something would come in mind.

SHE said, why is never a party? IT wasn't a party for anything. But I was at night time. And I mean, I know office said that he went there during the day SHE. I'd never been at my house during the day time, never.

In the last couple weeks, big cat has been hearing tons of rumors involving his name. I mean.

somebody, okay, ay this. What was said actually that there is a full moon party at my house, I guess, and I see is that this full moon party, which was a lie, I never had parties at my house. I lived with a newborn baby.

I lived like four other people I dreamed. So I do respect them. I remember the nice shoes over two, and I I have nothing to do that and that whole drug cultures, I stay away from that.

I don't grow parties. I don't invite those people in my house. I don't know why he is playing fingers at me if he's trying to get to blame off from him.

I don't know. I don't know that guy. I i've never had any bad, bad, but i'm so I don't know why.

I don't know why anybody wanted kill her. He was a fun girl, loving girl. You know, he is easy to get along with everybody like that.

You know, easy person to get along with if you don't even know and just meet on the street. So know anybody who just want to harmful. I'm not worried about to do. I'm not worried about the fish china spending my name here.

I all buys that I can be it's a new bone baby and that so I mean, I don't know how to get in touch with them, but I will totally call in and see you s say about that. I will message him on facebook. Good hopefully I get a response um maybe you either way, uh, i'll try to get a screen shot and record IT for you.

I don't know him well at all. I just know A, I don't think that he's a violent bad person, but he just has a lot of problems. I never have him up and about.

Big cat was very adamant about clearing his name. He was willing to call catfish himself and confront him about what he said. I was anxious to hear all that would go after we talk for the first time, he sent me the contact information for his roommates, who he said we co Operate the last time he saw Crystal, which was more than a week before he was reported missing.

He also sent me an official statement of source about what all he remembers during his lasting counter with Christal. He said this the last time that I saw her was the first week of july. Sometime SHE can just invited her herself over, and SHE left that night, had not seen her from her since then, but he seemed happy.

SHE may have had a drinking in her hand, so SHE may have been drinking, but was not out of control and was not on drugs. To my knowledge, SHE left that night, not sure what time, but I was not extremely late. I honestly don't remember what our conversations were about, so there obviously wasn't something too important said, but I don't remember her saying anything. Before he left, SHE seemed fine on esty.

a correspond with some .

of his roommates, and the story was the same there too. Coincidently, after the last episode, air Crystal sister amy realizes some of her friends new big cat personally, SHE called .

me to tell me about IT.

All he said basically was he recognized his voice, and he asked if he was. He said, he said, you think he had anything to do with that? And then I said, you know, he said, he is a home.

Me and I ask, he knew his relationship, see him hanging around people like cats, fish, but I don't know, big cats s like, you know, when he said, I can't see him hanging around people like capias and makes you think he knows about campfires, knows what he's about. I can't substantive. And just from looking at the writing, this kit doesn't seem to think he had anything to do with IT.

I I said I was she's wondering because when his name came up in the podcast, I just thought I was a little bit strange. But I would be serious as like is he a homy that like he's seen in the past two years and like i've got homes that I haven't seen in a while. So big cag never heard on to podcast.

Ah I even heard his name anywhere in the room or beds. People spend their whole day on the threat making of lives, you know and of course a juice murder story would get you know job in on its like friends or like friends. There is no coming through them early because I don't know. I just don't get the instinct that this big cat could maybe he know how h but I just don't have the feeling that he's like honestly in any way involved. But I really like IT doesn't hurt to poke around.

The next day after I reached out a big cat.

he sent me some screen shots of his attempts to reach out to catfish. Be a facebook big cat. Send cat fish. A message that said this, hey, call me when you can.

I've been talking to these podcast people, and I was told that you said, Christal went to my house after leaving yours. I have been seen her since a week or two before you were missing. Why are you bringing my name into this? Catfish didn't respond.

Big cat, also called catfish on facebook messenger. No answer. They're either.

yeah. And I I tried to call IT won't even ring says that is not allowing need the contacts in because we're not contacts on messenger as we are the last time when I first call and IT was letting ringing going to but I would love to call him in court study said eventually es blocked .

bay cat on facebook, and then randomly cat fishes. Facebook disappeared entirely. Then he popped back up again, this time with a new name, his real name. He's no longer caf fish on facebook.

I would just asked him, you know, what he heard from Crystal and why he was trying to bring my name up into IT you all these years later and I just I N I teaches the get the spotlight off then and you know I mean, I don't know, people know me from then like I don't have I like a question like that. I don't think anybody things I had anything to do with that.

You know, the first time i've ever heard my name involved and this is caters breaking IT up. I guess that our names have been mix up and gossip before, so I don't know you china use that is fuse to get the spotlight off. And I hope you guys figured this out and that know the thing I was can do on your number.

For now, there wasn't much more to explore in the big cat theory, but I found the odd cafe's blocked them when he was confronted about what he told me. But there still wasn't enough information to rule anything in or out.

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the ad Christal's family have been running in the paper. I haven't heard from them for a while, so he just just put another full page at IT. I think is the second or maybe the first time we stone up.

Rodney has remained vigilant in the search for Crystal, continuing to poke the bear in any way can, reminding the town of quest stone that they're never giving up in their quest for the truth. He's bought full page ads in the paper about the reward money, and he's personally sent out letters to every resident town.

I had sent .

out postcard, the beginning of the month, breast to the resonance of Crystal. I went through the reward, and there was a picture of Crystal on one side and cash on the other. But these is coming out of the next add.

I'm just gonna art throwing and provocative shit out there and hopefully some of the sticks as long as IT doesn't endanger my family. But i'm getting prepared for that too. So if somebody wants to come that direction, the next air today I was rewriting IT, trying to decide if I want to run at this month or next month. I was on the fence .

about IT to the .

person's responsible for Crystals murdered. You know who you are? We know who you are. And I also said animals. And then includes the aqua type.

Before catfish left town, rodney was in reston himself. He was talking to the deputy wane Clark.

So I had asked if he knew where camp sh. lived. He took me by his house, and I just so happened.

Catfish was standing out by the road when we drove by, and he waved, no, I don't think you knew who I was. I knew who wait was, you know, this got dangerous you i've asking that for, yeah is real dangerous. But the people that he deals with for even more dangerous.

The crestone local David is also a fully aware of the person's of interest.

in this case cat down. I know who is like everyone else, I really want, you know, some answers here. I just know I don't know whole a lot of about him. I know that there's all a lot of cattle dark stories about him, you know, like maybe just too much drugs and maybe a little busier than yeah, but I don't know, I don't know any any more than that.

I know he's got a really bad reputation, you know, which is a shame, but yeah, that's all I can say about the you most stories are rumours have some kind of bases in something. They have to start from somewhere. You know, someone knows something. Someone knows something. We just need to find out what that .

is with all the artists and strange people. In this case, IT continues to blog rudy's mind.

In this day, in age, weird is the new Normal in a sense of, you know, I think I can be surprised by something, and and, and no, and that because.

you know what was .

at the one and where the wife killed the the lover of her x husband and then SHE married you and I got her twenty three years later, he was a clown you know, when I talk about weird is the new Normal look at the political climate. I won't go there, but well, anything is possible.

Rodney and Christal family have all heard my call with cafe's now, and they share unique perspective on what can fish is saying.

to me, seems to have a profound effect on a lot of people and the people around the fence. This maybe something that kind come up the tent.

Yeah, I think he's probably trying to find out where you're going next in a sense, you know trying to keep track that, that won't work. But the more he talks that yeah there's the more in hey moh baLance, you know the easier is gonna topple and over. I fully believe that you getting involved is prompted cbi to really move forward on this.

You know I mean, it's to win, win for everybody if they are able to. You bring something good out of this and I send this back when you know you guys are the key here to this because you're concerned you're interested your dog get at IT and everything else you know with the shock and all effect of IT will just really put cryan and you get the calm fathers there. The mayor, you know, those people and everybody else say, hi folks, you know, I read their paper and I see all is real feel good stuff and everything else. But hey guys, you've got a real dark secret here in this pound, so let's blush IT out.

The sheriff believes that this is no longer a missing person's case, and he's pretty clear he believes that the place involved, I don't know if they've taken the actions that the public believes should occur if he thinks a homicide happened, but that's what they believe. They don't believe you just walked off. They believe that this is a case of all way.

They just have figured out yet. Maybe they get closer. You can only hope they're talking about IT, right? I mean, your podcast has brought that town to speak about this openly, and I believe that they were speaking about IT quietly in corners and in their own homes prior to the publicity from your podd cast.

I think people are really interested now and figure this out, even people who live in town, maybe there's some scared people, but I think that that is produced more people that are brave at this point. They need to fess up. They need to move forward this community and flush out the truth.

I think you've pushed them to do that. It's not exactly a waiting game, but it's pretty rare that these things never gets solved and hopefully be soon because people like to have IT solve so they can see justice. They can see a cause, in a fact, a exposure and somebody bad who gets caught and a conviction.

It's probably less um interesting in thirty years from now, right? All the people who really care about are gone, died, forgotten. He would be best to get solved now, but now is the time.

because people are talking.

Thinking that people want to defend their themselves or their good name. I just haven't found that be the case. Even completely innocent people often just say, no, not gona talk, don't want you don't need to, this is silly.

I don't need to respond to something so so in and I always think people should be able to defend themselves and answer questions. I think that that's first way. And I was gonna vise somebody, you know how to P R. Their life IT would be open up a little bit.

You can be cautious and talking to people, but you should, you should talk, explain always Better, because people, they can understand lots of laws, but they want to hear something and no comments like the worst thing, but a lot of people choose no comment. The shares partment, they haven't had deal with very many of these serious kind of cases. So it's not like they have seasoned new york city homicide detectives on staff because that's not what they do.

Um they probably are Better off serving their community with folks who can help change tires and properly deal with domestic disturbance violations and help people on drugs and skin the tape. I mean, those of the folks they should hire out there, you shouldn't waste the money for a crack homicide. They should also be willing to openly welcome professionals to come in from the outside.

Many of the town rumors about the incompetency of the shares department, to me, don't seem very fair in the sense that I don't think they're set up to look at homicides. And I do think early on, they recognize that they needed some help. And I have to give a lot of credit for for that.

If mistakes were made, mistakes were made, you can go back and change history. Do I think that there is a conspiracy to hide evidence or change evidence, or intentionally not look into? This is a serious matter for some period of time, i'll let suspects get away.

no. Now I just don't think that at the heart of of any law enforcement agency, if we see corruption in a police agency, it's a small group of people are one or two people, but it's not usually the whole structure. And I never got the feeling that, I mean, I think that I think they are do the best they can. And by calling an outside help, that gives me, I guess, some hope that somebody with a second set eyes, a king eyes, with experience and homicide investigations can spot what they need to, to help the shares department locally look good like yog get credit for IT. Let's get at all.

Crystal case has been litter with her say it's been difficult to sort through. But just as you d expect, certain names and details of shut out over time, still Crystal cases, especially difficult in a few ways. One, the timeline is fuzzy.

There's not a clear twenty four hour period that everyone agrees on. That being said, I still stand by my theory that Crystal went missing him between july thirteen th and fourth two. There is no real physical evidence here into a grinstead case from season one.

There is all sorts of case evidence. The latest club, her room is the shambled, her cord mud on IT. There was a lot to go off of.

This has not been the case with Crystal, the exception being your phone, which is now with the cbi. A number three, of course, there is no body in this case after over two years. I don't believe this is a missing person's case anymore.

This is a homicide. And Crystal's family seems the unanimous ous on this, too, is the most typical kind of homicide case to pursue a homicide with nobody. So I called upon someone who specializes in cases like Crystals. His name is tad to bias, and he's an expert in his field. His nickname says at all.

the nobody guy known is .

the nobody guy. Tat is well, verse.

In these cases, i've always said to people murdered and nobody murder case is the ultimate r case. So what I do for nobody murder cases is I consult and I teach on the cases. So I will teach groups of police and prosecutors about how tunes literally close and nobody homicide case and then had a successful ly prosecuted any no bix murder changed by its infinitely you're going to be missing the peace of evidence, which is the body and you're going to have to explain that to the jury that even though we don't have the body, we know for certain that this person is actually murdered.

Not just missing is .

easier today to make a accessible nobody order prosecution that .

has ever been.

It's been a real acceleration of these cases for two reasons. One, DNA has jump ed tremendous and made IT much easier to connect victims. And the change in the number two, the electronic trail.

when I talk .

about when someone has gone missing recently, such as A. If a lot feature because everyone is self test stanched, instagram.

facebook will post .

these markers without their lives and believe so, it's much, much easier to say. Well, there's been no indication that this person has been alive during this timely in the case. You'd able to point out the number of times a Crystal contacted her daughter to show that he had a close relations with her daughter, that he would not go two years without contacting her daughter.

No one is going to do that. Most of us don't change our happens. For the most part, you know, unless there are some explanation, I stop communicating with my exhusband because we got to fight and I was.

And or whatever is IT possible that he killed herself as a factual matter? Yeah, of course that's possible. That seemed to be the way Crystal words.

no, he know.

obviously he had some difficulties in people's H. B, changed. If some people who said, no, he was on the good place, and some people said he wasn't such a good place. But even in those cases, those bodies tend to be found out of suicide.

Think like that, you know, I believe anyone heard of a suicide attempt before, like you said, he does see someone for you, someone who has been, through a lot of difficult plans, certainly had something to live for with cash that meet and not speak to someone who's been suicide. So then you go to, okay, that you you want to run out their chickerel w as died of flag of food and hydration. While that doesn't see likely either because he's someone who had been in the area, he's someone who is familiar with the area.

You a dumb tour is going down the grank anywhen the water flap. Not saying he's experience backpacker and you think but those just seem unlikely, particularly when we know he was telling people he had been raped, actually assaulted by someone and then all the sung disappears that seems to raise much more along flag than the suicide or i'm not doing to walk about that night passed away. The ARM r.

SHE had something happened to her, and someone intentionally put her away. And as an investigate, you ve gotta play the yard. What is more likely is IT more likely to want the way died.

And nobody has found the body that sound likely. It's more likely her body is IT. Unfortunately, the longer cases tend to go, the more reliant we become on what people said to one another.

The forensic evidence becomes more difficult because time passes. And even though DNA can last, the very long time is exposed to the elements, or in somebody have have been able to clean up well enough to the bleach. Think like that, you N D N A IT becomes more difficult. So as a result of that, you become more reliant on what one, two people now. And one of things that strikes me about Christine is is very and I think there's a lot more than gathered from people with there um who have lived there, who have passed, who have information and and we've seen that with your your show along, people start coming forward and talking about this is what I know this is what I heard to me that to really how this case solve, i'm not ruling out forensic evidence but I think it's more likely it's going to be when someone finally stepped forward and either confesses or other people step forgot to say this person .

told the X Y .

enz the smallest of the community um is a little striking to me because typically in small pounds you know on the small pounds of body talk and you seem to have some of that here but not the extended I thought so that strikes me you know, as a little are 对。

You know the overall means of, you know, people committing murder, possibly after some type of relationship or some type of crime, of crying, committing a murder to cover up that crime, whether IT was eventual sault of Crystal or know in overdosing drugs or whatever IT was those speeds, I think, resonate throughout the time that I am looking at these cases. Most popular places to barry body is number one water in number two dusters. And that's because a lot of these murder actually happened in obviously, in urban areas in colorado to the population is less, but the number of people per square miles just lower.

Easier dispose of a body there than in the urban location. The everything i've heard about this location is its remote and IT can be difficult. You know, terrain IT had mine shaft, which right away nobody killer. Where am am I getting at rid of a body in on my shap? They're dangerous to copy to.

And so when you start getting down to where body can be buried or just disposed of outdoors, IT becomes a lot harder because you're talking about, you know, a color of a huge area, difficult area to search if you don't have some specifics about where we be and search parties play a role into that, you've got to really be prepared as a detective to do that. IT may be running down, ridiculous lead IT may be a psychic said such, in such habit, you still got to run those things down because then I trial you're detective with the prosecution, we can say, here's all of the places we look at so that the jury really get the sense, hay. These guys look everywhere and they still don't find anything.

You need to look at who your suspect is and where he, i'm saying he, because most to kind IT to eat most the time of the female, where would he be comfortable with the exposing of a body? If I nobody murdered, i'm not going to go to a location, but i'm not something with, i'm not going to go on land and not for me with because I might suddenly be staring down a double bell shot on of the owner of the property. He said, what they have do you do?

And on my land.

Most nobody murders are not planned in advance. Most of them happen because there is a fight between two people, people who were in love, who are in love, those types of thing. And so there's not often a lot of planning.

The difference here is if you have the presence of more people, there's gonna more of a panic. And let's just get rid of the body quickly. Let's get this done. Let's get this out of my house and let's go, you know, somewhere else. So that could lead to an element of a more kind of dash i'm disposal of the body yeah although I will say from all the people you interviewed out of them seem like .

massive planers.

Most missing person cases are not necessarily ones that you can translate into a successful nobody prosecution because when you don't have the body is such a huge disadvantage. You know, i'm liking to to it's like a hundred meter race with the order work is to start at the thirty meter mark. Can I start at the start line? So while i'm a big advocate of doing nobody cases, I take a body every single time.

If you can find the body, you always get around because the body gives you so much information about the crime. This case, Christmas case, I would say you should still be looking for our body because there's a change. You going to find something.

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I don't know how you search that area without intelligence. You need intelligence to to smartly look. It's vast. And again, I think if somebody killed her, I don't think they're genius.

I don't think that they were going to put the body on their back Carrier eight miles through the rocky terrain. I think that if somebody killed her, they've put her some place that was relatively convenient for them. But I doubt that is later out on the ground. Very unlikely. Even the most idiotic criminal will do something to conceal a body.

The repeated rumor we hear is that Crystal could be at the bottom of a mine shaft. And just trying to figure out if there are any truth to that rumor, we spent quite of a time looking for abandoned mine shafts in the crestone area. I've recently acquired a geo coded list of abandoned mine entrances in the area.

And we're going through and APP to try to figure out exact locations and someone more on private property. So you can't just wander around. Others appear to be on public land. B, M, L, land. What we expect to do is find some possible locations that the shares department hasn't looked out is another way to push the investigation forward.

If there are fifty abandoned mine entrances in the crustal one area, and forty seven of them have giant steel welded grades over them are filled with bother, and those are ones that we wouldn't focus on, but there four or five that are little rigid or appear. If we can identify those, just ask some questions. Whether anybody's done any discovery in those areas may be that helps.

Maybe IT doesn't. It's just one way as reporters, we think we can help you. We're willing to, to do that work.

I've been involved with some grad searches for little kids to get lost. There are hundreds of volunteers that walk ARM length to ARM length apart, mile after mile, looking for for little kids. They're missing.

And those are small areas, and they might take a thousand people at eight, ten thousand feet down that part of the state. It's tough in the snow. We are, we are fighting in the clock.

Now I want to break down the timing of this snow fault tonight. This is eight, fifteen, so hanging onto the snow in the high country.

And that's really the beginning .

of our next storm system. Moving in, you can see IT covering the high country, fourteen inches of snow, over a foot of snow in the past twenty four hours.

Snows an issue. We've been watching the weather. We're trying to get back out to crest down to do some more work. The work that you're talking about and the work that we want to do requires that there not be snow on the ground.

There are two main episodes left this season, and we're giving this investigation everything we got next time on up and vanished. We team up with Chris hosny in his investigative team to search for Crystal and Crystal and more, bringing some help of our own.

The families deserve the absolute best that we can get to them. And I believe that fully. That means preparing myself, physically, mentally, staying in good shape, being aware of what suspects are doing and what's happening to these victims.

And in making sure that my partners, these dogs, are on the top physical condition, that they're trained and that we choose the right dog to do this kind of job, chance technically, is called a human remains detection of. Many people know them as can ever based upon what we've discussed earlier, again, without their respect. If she's out there or they set out there, it's going to throw out throughout the day and it's really gone to bring that central life is going to be really optimum. Send conditions for .

the keep built down that road and where we're going to wave that rose to the get and how much minds to stop that road we are right now by the shoes water tower and were in a White.

So there's another mind chat to sit down this here. I wonder if this comes up. We're going to go total.

I don't think we're in cans anymore. We're in this case, chance. I don't think we're georgia anymore. We will know more at the end of this day than we did at the beginning of this day.

Up vanished is an investigative podcast told weekly produced for tender for TV by pain. Landy micronesia made a statement with new episodes every monday, executive producers pain lenzing and donal Albert, additional production by resonate recordings as well as Mason lennie, Robert ta and Christina da. Our intern is highlighted original score by makeup and vanity set theme sung is oh ilia performed by as a rose.

Our cover art is by travel iser special links to the team at k and thirteen visit us on social media via at up vanished, or you can visit website up and vanish 点 com， or you can join in on our discussion board. If you're enjoying up and vanished, tell a friend, family member or co worker about IT and don't forget to subscribe rate and review on apple podcasts. Thanks for listening.

You here is no such thing as the perfect murder. That's not true because I had a lot of perfect mirrors.

IT took a years .

before I .

was .

actually able to speak with this guy.

Nobody knew what happened here. Even the police. They didn't have no idea. Not the only one. I know exactly what happened.

The man who says he murdered dennie's philaster. And I find out what really happened.

that terrible night. The only two people that know what happened that night is tiny, and he is one that has answers, believable or night.

One of the top series on apple podcast denies didn't come home. You can binge the entire season right now wherever you get your podcast.

This call is from an in ada in the jury. Stay prison. Hey.

I have some pretty important questions for you.

I can't wait.